![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Drat, i lost my password. Anyhoo, there seems to be a bit of dissagreement between sources that I want cleared up. Some websites claim that you need to be a high power level to transform, but do not state anything about multiplied power level. Others say nothing about required power level but claim that the transformation greatly increases power. And others, such as this article, seem to claim that you need to be a sufficient power level, and it increases power. I think we should put the generally accepted theory here, unless it already is, or if there isnt one. So what is it? -Purple Pikmin
OK, I archived it. The discussions actively going on had nothing to do with the article. Don't bring them up again. Nemu 17:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
What the hell dude. DONT delete my last comment on there (in my "Broly is stronger than you guys think" thread) and then hide it and disable the editing tool so that I cant reply! This is pissing me off. I KNOW I am right! Jrapidfire 07:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Heat P 09:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean? It is relevant to the article. We ARE talking about Super Saiyans here are we not? Jrapidfire 08:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I fixed up the descriptions of the forms, they are fairly easy to read and are clear in the descriptions, hopefully you guys like them. Majinvegeta
I've never heard of an incomplete Super Saiyan being referred to as "Quasi", Quasi is French and means "half", but still, is this word appropriate to use considering that Dragonball Z has nothing to do with the French language? Majinvegeta
It's not just about using English. It's also about making sense. Really I doubt people causally reading feel like looking up giji. That also brings up the fact that none of the other names take the Japanese names. Just because the name was never used in the movie, we should use one Japanese word out of eight others? I don't know if it's just me, but that looks silly. Until the article is named "sūpā saiyajin" leave it as an English word. I don't really care if it get put back as false, but don't change it back to giji because you find it to be more correct than some English word. Nemu 11:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
So, anyone plan on responding to me? Nemu 11:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I'm sick of people randomly leaving when they have decided that they've won without actually deciding anything. Nemu 13:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Well I Googled the word and I came up with so real interesting results, the word Giji has quite a few meanings when i transtaled it into English and believe it or not all of you guys and gals seem to be right but to some extent you are wrong too. Here's how. Giji means suspected (pref), quasi-, pseudo-, sham, and false from Japanese to English, and it also means character of questionable form and means questionable word(not that word but the meaning of other words). So Quasi Super Saiyan, False Super Saiyan, and Pseudo Super Saiyan all seem right when at first, however checking out the other words, I came up with some different results. False from English to Japanese means ese. So False Super Saiyan seems to be the wrong translation for that. Quasi a Italian word, not french word was put into English and means almost or nearly. So in Italy Quasi Super Saiyan is right but not in America. Pseudo, a Croatian word means bogus. So Pseudo Super Saiyan is close in Croatian but not in the English. So in reality Giji truly translated into English only means Suspected and Sham. However the prefered uses of Giji is Suspected. So in reality the translation for Giji Supa Saiyaijn is Suspected Super Saiyan. Does make more sense. If you wanna check it out yourselves Google the words as Giji, Translation togther and many sites will come up, but check out Eudict.com and you get translations I have explained. hope that help you out Nemu? Heat P 07:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I did my research on a Tranlation site. A legit translation site. go check it out. So in a more common translation for the word giji the word suspected (again a more common translation) is a more buyable translation for it not quasi or pseudo despite quasi coming real close and pseudo meaning bogus in the english language. I gave you that site to check out. Did you or you wanna put you opinion on my research saying its wrong. yes giji means all those things as I said before but when i translated those word into english the other words came up with other meanings in the english language and i also translated them into japanese with the some of the same results. So despite the true origins for those word Quasi and being adopted by the english language, so you say. The word giji is more commomly translated to the words suspected and sham. Where did you translate the word? also i tried to translate the words Quasi from english to japanese and you know what? it said that word can not be found in the english language to translate. But Pseudo come up as giji, so i will give you that. So you say Quasi is vaild? maybe but as of the english, i shall repeat it to ENGLISH language giji is again more commomly translated into suspected and sham, maybe even pseudo but not Quasi as you would like to use. Heat P 12:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a question. Did Movie 4 come out before Goku did the actual Super Saiyan transformation in the manga or after? We all know that it came out before the anime version, but if it came out before the manga then it may help with the discussion you guys are having about the why the translation of the word giji. I mean if it came before then false is not the word to use since the movie came first, but if it came after then false maybe the word to use. SSD4
Ok so I wanna ask my fellow Dragonball Fans like myself a question. We have the translated words for Giji. So I ask you guys and gals do we keep it as such or go on and come to an agreement on which word to translate for the title of the GSSJ form? Should we keep it Giji Super Saiyan with False Super Saiyan translated in the desciption paragraph or title it with such translations as False SSJ, Suspected SSJ, Quasi SSJ, Pseudo SSJ, or "Questionable Form" SSJ or Questionable SSJ Form (Giji also means questionable form). Just wondering what you guys and gals think? Heat P 19:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
If you did change that Nemu I think I can live with that. Thats good we got a translation on the word and you got the other translated name along side it so people can understand what it means. Good job if it was you Nemu.
Heat P
03:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
HEY!!! Why is someone changing the title of GSSJ to a translation of the word then someone else changing it back? Can you people figure out what you want? Come to an agreement and leave the name alone. That is irratating seeing people do that. Is it that hard? You guys got the translations, Fix it. Stop playing cat and mouse on the article. You confusing the heck out off people. SSD4 07:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Man you guys are really killing me. Can we come to a unanimous agreement. I have check this page at less six times today and the word has been changed at less three time. Can't we all just get along? Heat P 12:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Na i wont disagree. I agree. It's cool. Just happy (I hope) that something was finally agreed uppone. Everything you wrote made sense to me. It's ok with me. Heat P 12:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I like the way this article is turning out, it is more sophisticated and detailed then the older one and it is highly accurate in descriptions. And even the original names of the forms are included in the text. Please continue with the cleanups and give yourselves a pat on the back! :) Majinvegeta
Should we make one? It has been made fun of in various parodies. So far I can recall it being made fun of on Codename: Kids Next Door(Some episode, forget the deatails), Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo(Both in a special chapter and in the series in general), Neko Majin Z(obvious) and on a Saturday Night Live skit. Can anyone else remember some others? Should we also mention the story or whatever the Super Saiyan was based of off somewhere(opening or something)? Nemu 22:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah, if we can find sources, maybe we should mention Super Sonic and I think a couple of other game series. We'll need definite sources seeing as they could just be based off of the folk tale or whater turning gold comes from(I think it's some sort of Japanese/Chinese folk tale or something). Nemu 22:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't find a source at the moment, but I thought I once read Trey Parker and Matt Stone say the scene in South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut where Cartman shorts out his V chip was a parody of Super Saiyans. Electricity flies around him, his hair stands on end, and as he shouts off swear-words he fires off Dragon Ball-esque energy attacks. Did Megas XLR ever do one? THey parodied just about everything else. Onikage725 01:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A note on the recent edit/revert. While Im inclined to agree that others mastered the form inthe next saga, nothing was really said on it in the manga or anime. In fact the form itself isnt really a new form. It was a certain level of mastery over the base SSJ form (as opposed to 2nd/3rd grade), and was only labeled in the Daizenshuu. So, given the lack of specific information, adding other characters would count as original research. Onikage725
I agree with what your saying, i think the FPSSJ section should be merged with the SSJ section; simply talking about how goku and gohan planned to adjust to living normaly in the form to gain an advantage while fighting(similar to the use of weighted clothing) -Evirus 69.14.33.214 07:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Why include Onio? You reliaze it is just a self-parody. You won't find Onio in the manga of Dragonball Z or in the anime. Let's just stick to dragonball z and dragonball GT. What is next other super saiyan parodys will be included like No.4 from Kids Next Door and Bo-bobo?
Unlike those other parodies, Onio is a Saiyan. Neko Majin may be a parody, but it's by Akira Toriyama and the character is a Super Saiyan. Onikage725 21:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I argee. Being a Saiyan, Super Saiyan and a Akira Toriyama created character on a self parody created by AT, Onio is part of this article. Don't bring Bo-bobo or KND on this. They are created by different people and studios as well as THEY ARE NOT SAIYANS. Heat P 09:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. He is not in the manga or in the anime. Its just a joke since fat saiyans really can't go super saiyan in the manga and anime. Onio shouldn't be included. He also has a saiyan wife and there were no surviving female saiyans after Planet Vegeta was destroyed. The article is about real saiyans not fake ones.
What does the articles say that Onio is in? Saiyan and Super Saiyan. And if you wanna talk about real saiyans then Broly doesn't need to be here. In the Saiyan article Broly, Paragus, Tullece, And every saiyan in Bardock's special, except Bardock should not be in that article. As they are not in the actual anime or manga, but they are. Joke or not he is a Saiyan created by Akria Toriyama that is in a manga. These Saiyan articles is not direct articles on Dragonball despite them talking about Dragonball characters. Those are other articles. This and the other Saiyan article are articles directly about Saiyans. If the articles directly said something like Saiyans of Dragonball then thats a different story. But they say Saiyan and Super Saiyan. Leave it at that. Heat P 10:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It should be left with the dragonball z continuity. After all you won't find neko majin Z thats been translated in your local store. We should stick to those who did become super saiyans in the manga, anime, and dbz movies. Next thing you know you would probably but Broly as a giji super saiyan since he looks like one in movie 7. Broly is more canon than Onio. Just leave Onio in the Neko Majin Z article not the super saiyan article. You won't find Onio in Budokia Tenkaichi 2 why? Because he is a parody not a character that is actually in the dragonball Z series.
Saiyans and super saiyans comes from the dragonball z series. You shouldn't include saiyans from works outside of the dragonball continuity. Onio doesn't fit in there anyways. There are other saiyan parodys that is not included. In movie 7 when Broly goes "SSJ" his hair isn't yellow. The movie doesn't explain why Broly hair is different when he is a "SSJ". Just because Onio is created by AT doesn't mean he should be listed. Well at least mention that Onio is just a sayian parody and does not exist in the dragonball Z continutiy is only in the magna parody of dragonball z. You are giving mix messages about who can become super saiyan when including Onio.
Onio is an unofficial saiyan. What made you change your minds anyways? You mispell movie by the way. You guys use to agree that it is irreverent to add Onio. Super Saiyans do exist outside of Neko Majin Z as well. Onio is only a joke thats all. Lets not go outside of the dragonball continuity. It wouldn't hurt to not include Onio. Theres already an article about Neko Majin Z anyways.
Sorry about calling Broly's 1st movie movie 7. Thats on me. My bad Suit. Now to the guy that as no IP. You seem to have you mind made up. However the rest of us discussing this sees Onio as a Saiyan that can and is included in the article. So I got a Question to you? How is Onio a unofficial saiyan? Like I closely said earlier up top if you wanna call him unofficial, false, fake, or a joke than all other saiyans that appear in movies and in Bardock's special other than Bardock himself should not be including in any article that involves saiyans. But they are. You keep trying to say things that just doesn't make sense. And despite again it being a joke it is part of Dragonball believe it or not. If it is not than tell us why AT included Goku, Vegeta and Buu in that manga? I see if he put those three in it that in itself makes it part of the Dragonball community. Heat P 19:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Onio shouldn't count as a super saiyan. It just doesn't seem to fit in. Does it directly say Onio is a saiyan or is implied?
the user under IP 69.154.79.159 has removed Onio from the list 3 times already -- Ditre 20:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Broly is canon. Just because he is not in magna and the anime doesn't mean he is not canon take Garlic Jr for example. Neko Majin Z is not in the dragonball Continutiy even though there are cameos of dragonball Z characters. Neko Majin Z is about a Cat name Z which has nothing to do with the dragon ball continuity. The movies are canon. Many stories has plot holes and continuity errors in it so deal with it. Why list Neko Majin Z what's next Robot Chicken since it has cameos of dragonball Z characters in it? It won't hurt to not put Onio on the list. Lets just stick with dragonball, dragonball Z, and dragonball GT. Just leave Onio on the Neko Majin Z page.
The list of super saiyans are not all from the dragonball contiuity. So all the super saiyan on the list are the list of the ones Toriyama created?
If you remove Onio for being non-canon, that'd be fine with me but you'll also have to remove Broly, False Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4 since they're non-canon too.
Saying that Broly, False Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4 are not canon is an opinion not a fact. Onio is the only one that is not canon since he is not in the dragonball continuity. Please don't include super saiyan parodies especially from neko majin Z and TV funhouse.
just because he isn't part of the Dragon ball continuity doesn't dismiss him from the list, its about super saiyans, not the continuity, and Akira Toriyama being the actual maker of the series makes Onio an actual saiyan and not just fan art -- Ditre 19:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
pariodies don't count. Onio is irreverent and inconstant. Let's just leave where it was before Onio was put on. It was only a joke and not meant to be put on the super saiyan list. Lets limit to the dragonball continutiy.
Akira Toriyama's word and creations count whether they're parody or not. Toriyama invented Super Saiyan 1, and he invented Onio. He stays.
Onio is inconsistent with what? the dragon ball continuity? well the title of this article isn't Super Saiyans (Dragon Ball) its just Super Saiyan, and toriyama gets to make actual super saiyans outside of the dragon ball continuity if he wants to, like i said, hes not fan art, Onio is an actual making of Toriyama's work. you need to read the rest of whats here instead of just adding "onio shouldn't be on the list omygawdz" -- Ditre 05:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Movies are Canon. Take the Garlic Junior saga for example. Onio is only a joke. There are other parodies that have other super saiyans in it. Onio is more of a fan work done by Toriyama than an actual creation. Movies are part of the dragonball series. Onio should be removed. He doesn't match the dragonball continuity. Goku appeared in Robot Chicken but I don't hear you arguing about it. Lets just stick with the anime, movies, and dragonball series manga.
Those are opinions not facts. Frieza never had a son. Neko Majin Z is not part of the dragonball series. Yes it would be a good idea to remove Onio from the saiyan list. Just leave Onio and Kuriza in the Neko Majin Z page. The Super Saiyan page is suppose explain about where super saiyans came from and what they are. Listing a Parody will confuse things and make it sounds irreverent to the article. Plus it is unlikely that a fat saiyan could become a super saiyan anyways not to mention his hair is too short but that is just an opinion just like yours.
Neko Majin Z is not actually part of the Dragonball continuity. It is just a parody making fun of stuff from Dragonball Z. Parodies shouldn't be listed. It is very confusing. Frieza is probably alive in Neko Majin Z since he has a son. In the dragonball Z Frieza was killed by Trunks. The reason the message before you said a fat saiyan is unlikely to become a super saiyan is because Fat Gogeta and Fat Gotenks couldn't become Super Saiyans. It does make sense that really really short hair saiyans probably couldn't become super saiyans since the hair won't stand up. Onio should be on a separate page that explains Neko Majin Z.
it wouldn't be a good idea to give onio his own page, there isn't enough information on him to justify it -- Ditre 22:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You could just leave Onio in the Neko Majin Z page instead of listing him in the Super Saiyan page. I guess you guys feel strongley about Onio being on the super saiyan list despite it being a parody. I just hope you guys don't go too far and put other parodies in there like Kobayashi going Super Saiyan in TV Funhouse. You guys are probably going to put other super saiyan parodies in there since you feel so strongely about it. Is Onio the only super saiyan in Neko Majin Z?
Someone went and erased Onio and the the part about the self-parody Neko Majin at the top of the page. I decided to just leave it alone myself because it is getting pointless to agrue over it, but I disagree with that since it was someone without a IP address that erased it that doesn't like that idea of Onio on the page and not a majority vote on keeping him on the page.
Onio must stay, whenever he is a self parody or not he is a Super Saiyan, the only real reason we have him here is because he was created by Toriyama is not like we are adding all kind of parodies here, other wise Muten Roshi would be on the list because of that short gag in Broli's movie. - Dark Dragon Flame 23:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I had heard once that because all the Saiyan characters in DBZ learned how to become Super Saiyans, that the legend about being a Super Saiyan was really talking about the fourth form seen in GT, but I didn't see anything about that in the article. Is it just a rumor? Gladrius 15:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Even though there are cameos of Dragonball Z characters in Neko Majin Z it is not part of the Dragonball Continutity. Notice there is no dragonball in its name. Neko Majin Z is about a cat name Z. After all Robot Chicken had dragonball Z characters but that is not being listed is it?
You shouldn't say dragonball GT is not canon after letting Onio on the super saiyan list.
"Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement, not for engaging in discussion for discussion's sake." That includes opinions, personal outlashes, Original Research statement, and personal attacks but you seem to ignore the rule Wikipedia put on here just to put you SO-CALLED facts on this like you done may times before. This is not a discussion forum, It doesnt help fix or enhance the article. You have a nack for doing things like that i see. You need to read the rules and regulations on talk pages before something is done about it. This "If you feel this is original research, that's nice, but I couldn't care less. I will say whatever I wish to, whether original research or not, and unless I introduce it into the article itself, you have absolutely NO justification for throwing rules at me. Try using that lump of fat in your head called a brain before talking again, hmm? :)" statement is a prime example of how childish this 24 year old is. I have every RIGHT to throw a rule at you when you clearly break them. Nothing personal from or for me, it just business.
Dragonball GT is a sequel to Dragonball Z not spinoff. Broly is the Legendary Super Saiyan according to Movie 8.
Spinoff, sequel same difference. Broly is the so called Super Saiyan of legend in the movies. No i am not saying non canon or not. Just movies are not part of the actual series, it's just part of the DBZ contiunity. So again no one knows what the original SSJ looked like so no one can say if Broly is or Goku is. Goku in the anime in consider the legendary super saiyan, movie wise its Broly but no one knows for sure. SSD4
What in the heck is wrong with you people. SSD4 you should not accuse someone of rule breaking. You seem to have done it yourself. Dai, I know dogon well I can't lecture you on it because I done it in the past and you help me understand that it's wrong, but what do you think you are doing using PROFANITY!!!, turning it into a forum, and you are taking this WAY TOO PERSONAL!!! You need to stop that now. Both of you. So Dai before someone at Wikipedia see that statement you may need to erase it. The last one the starts "OH F___" and the BULLS___ one. Now the statement that SSD4 was talking about is that one that say Dai you imply that DBGT has nothing to do with DBZ? You maybe somewhat right in a way but that is an opinion. It is however not an original research SSD4. You should no better than to put that on here. I know I can't really lecture you like I said but its true. But SSD4 you are bringing up something that has nothing to do with this article on Super Saiyans. Yes it is something that can be talked about but on DBGT article or DBZ article. My God what are you two thinking putting personal attacks infront of everyone's eyes? I know I can't really talk as I said again but someone had to. Heat P 05:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
1st off do not get on me ok. I feel you two are going way too far infront of eveyone that talks on this page. I do agree on termination of this talk but before that, go and look under Talk Page guildlines under Be polite ( Wikipedia:Civility), Wikipedia:Assume good faith, Wikipedia:Profanity, and content page Should Wikipedia Use Profanity?. It is a violation of using profanity but I don't wanna argue over that. It's not the right thing to do. Remember good faith, no personal attacks and be polite. You do take things way too personal sometimes, but I agree on this "SSD4" person is using this as a way to attack you. Just be careful arguing with hardheaded fools. As for you "SSD4" Dai has all rights to put a opinion on here as long as Dai doesn't edit the article with opinion. Also its not a Original Reseach she said. Since you have no IP I have to tell you this here. If you have a issue with Dai, go to Dai's IP address and take it up with Dai there and not here. This article is about SSJ, not DBGT or DBZ or a depate or personal attack forum. So as of now this is the end of this edit summary discussion. Heat P 08:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd say that LSSJ was the true form of Super Saiyan.
Broly is the Legendary Super Saiyan so deal with it. Sure he doesn't appear in the magna or anime but that doesn't mean he is not canon. The reason there is Broly is to explain why there could be more than one super saiyan as seen in the Trunks Saga. Broly has indeed become a legendary Super Saiyan. If you don't like it too bad. Movies are canon even though they don't fit in the timeline expect for movie 9 and 13.
Let's just go what we know. Broly is considered a Legendary Super Saiyan. During the Frieza saga no one knows what a super saiyan looked like. Vegeta imaged a super saiyan as being a giant ape. At one point Vegeta thought he was a Super Saiyan since he got so much stronger during the Frieza saga. Does the True Super Saiyan form refer to Super Saiyan 1 or Legendary Super Saiyan as in Broly?
I thought of something while reading the article. Would Gohan's "Latent Power Released" form -- the power form he used during the tail-end of the Majin Buu Saga where he was just as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 but showed little-to-no aura and lacked a change of hair and eye color -- be considered part of the "Super Saiyan" thing? I read the semi-article in Gohan's article and it said anyone can undergo the "Latent Power Released" ritual, but it also said that "Gohan would go Super Saiyan but there would only be a very slight difference in appearence."(Or something to that degree.) ~ Joseph Collins ( U)( T)( C) 10:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
i think gogetas final form should be some ware between ssj4 and ssj5. I dont belive he was ssj4 (shadowsok@aol.com)
i am not proposing he was ssj5 just more than ssj4. i am not basing this on power i am basing this on the change in fetures.
~~The so-called "Super Saiyan 5" was a piece of fan-art released with a few other pictures indicating a new DragonBall series known as AF. This is a myth, perhaps a practical joke by someone who wanted to throw the DB/Z/GT fans into a tail-spin. If you google it you can find up to "Super Saiyan 16" with all SSJ 5-16 being recolored forms of 1-4.
~~IMO power levels are irrelevant, it is the method of using the power that determines state. The "Giji Super Saiyan" was used when Goku's rage exploded, temporarily drawing out his full power, however he was unused to this power and was unable to control it, thus the short lifespan of the form. The Super Saiyan form was an improved form that allowed Goku to draw out all of his latent power, and control it. Super saiyan 2nd and 3rd grades are when that latent power is drawn out and multiplied, similar to the Kaio-ken but without the corresponding upswing in speed. The golden hair and green eyes common to Super Saiyan forms are a side effect caused by imperfect control, thus the increased spikiness is SSJ2 and the long hair is SSJ3. Super Saiyan 2 form allows the user to multiply his latent power and speed. Super Saiyan 3 form is merely a continuation of this, multiplying the latent powers to the greatest extent. However this sudden increase in power is difficult to control. Super Saiyan 4 forms greatest achievment was the complete stability and control of the form allowing the person to use incredible power without the "leakage" of the first 3 forms. The idling power level of the SSJ4 is close to 0, while still allowing instantaneous increase to full power. The only exception being Gogeta, who purposely unleashed an aura, since his power was so great that he could afford to waste it. --SoloStryker 10:35 March 10, 2007 (EST)
What's this "Dragon Ball/Z/GT Transformation Guide"? Is it an official published book, by Akira Toriyama? If there are names given in such a publication that are considered to be valid and reliable, then including them should be no problem. But as is? I don't think there's any reason to make the titles any longer than they already are, and it messes with links on a number of articles to change them. If you absolutely must include these alternate names, perhaps mentioning them as alternate names in the text UNDER the title might be a better choice.
Daishokaioshin 23:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys and gals I was looking over the article and nothice something I feel needs to be fixed. The names of Goku and the other Son's names. In some of the Super Saiyan level subjects it says Son Goku or Son Gohan and in others is just says Goku or Gohan. To fix this I wanted to see what you folks think and feel about it. If you agree we need to fix it, do we go with the Son family name or just keep it the given name. For those that don't understand what I mean. Should we use Son Goku and Son Gohan or just Goku and Gohan? Heat P 20:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
It should be Goku and Gohan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.221.217 ( talk • contribs)
To whoever keeps changing Goku and Gohan in the Super Saiyan 2 section to Son Goku and Son Gohan needs to stop. Unless you going to change all the Son character names to the Son family name in every section of this article leave it as such. One section does not need there names different then the others. So again unless you intend to change every Goku, Gohan and Goten in the article to Son Goku etc.... leave it be. Heat P 12:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
In the article, it says "In this form, the Saiyan's hair does not become golden, but instead retains its original color". Yet Vegeta's ahir is brown as seen in the series and noted below the above mentioned paragraph. This needs to be fixed but i don't know how to re-word the article + it's 1am in the morning where I am. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mjr4077au ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC).
Dai, I got a question that you, who have more knowlegde on Japanese language than anyone editing these DB articles can most likely answer. Like the other Super Saiyan sections other that SSJ2,3, and 4, they have the original Japanese names in the description paragraph. Would it be possible to put the Japanese word for the FPSSJ on it? I looked it up and Full Powered Super Saiyan came at as Sūpā Saiyajin Furu Pawā but I looked it up on the inertnet on the website www.Daizex.com. That site has alot of info on it collected from the Daizenshuus, Dragon Ball offical books like GT perfect guide and mangas. I don't want to add it without consulting someone with more knowledge than I do in the Japanese language or put something on here that actually may not be in the offical books. What you think? These also goes for anyone that can answer this but only to those who REAL know and not a comment you feel should be put.
FULL-POWER SUPER SAIYAN (Sûpâ Saiyajin Furu Pawâ) The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" is coined in the second daizenshuu
SUPER SAIYAN 2 (SSJ2) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Tsû) Originally called a Super Saiyan that surpasses that of a, or beyond that of a Super Saiyan
SUPER SAIYAN 3 (SSJ3) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Surî)
SUPER SAIYAN 4 (SSJ4) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Fô)
LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYAN (LSSJ) (Densetsu no Sûpâ Saiyajin) sixth daizenshuu ("MOVIES & TV SPECIALS").
"ASCENDED" and "ULTRA" SUPER SAIYAN (ASSJ,USSJ) ("ichi-dankai no henshin;" transformations of the first stage)
• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ichi-dankai (the normal Super Saiyan, or SSJ1)
• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai (ASSJ; the second stage of SSJ1)
• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai (USSJ; the third stage of SSJ1)
Ok I going to fix it back to False Super Saiyan. It been agreed on so leave it been. Do not start this up again.
Heat P 08:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I also went in and fix several thing that some unknown IP user decided to add on that really did't make sense of shouldn't have been put into this article.
Heat P 08:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Again so unknown IP address keeps on changing the False SSJ to Giji. Again it has been agreed on to have it as False. So I went and changed it back AGAIN and I will as long as whoever is doning keeps changing it.among some other things. if someone has a problem with it needs to speak up.
Heat P 06:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok I come to this article everyday for the past week and I come and see something is always missing, or changed. Today I came on and seen three things that got to me. One, under ASSJ some one puts supposely next to Goku and under USSJ Goku's name is completely taken off. Now if memory serves me correctly in the anime and manga Goku is shown powering up to both of this SSJ power up in the Room of Spirit and Time infront of his first born son Gohan. He may not have used them in a fight but he clearly was seen in these two powered up forms of the normal SSJ. why edit it to that crap earlier? Just to let you know I edited the corrections in. Two, everyday I come on this article, the picture of the SSJ4 is one day just Goku SSJ4 then the next Vegeta amd Goku SSJ4. Pick a picture and stick with it. PLEASE.
Heat P 20:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok someone is went through the article and added some real non sense but added some good points. So myself and SUIT are going through the article now and fixing up the problems. If anyone see something we don't please feel free to fix it.
i would like to know where the information about Son Goku was ever what is listed as an ascended and ultra super saiyan
-- Ditre 21:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Are you blind, do you read the manga, do you watch the anime. Goku is show powering up to show Gohan that he has found the way to ascended past his normal Super Saiyan powers and even notices the fault in the use of USSJ just as Trunks is fighting Cell in his USSJ form. If that does not help you how about his Daizehshuu has him listed as one of the users of this power up.
i watched the anime, never read the manga because theres no place near where i live that sells them... the only time i ever saw goku say he ascended to a level beyond a super saiyan is where he was referring to becoming a Super Sayain 2, because he didn't get bulgy like the others did
--
Ditre
03:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok I got you. If you got the Perfect Cell Saga I cant truly remember at this time what episode number but it's one of the episodes when Trunks beings his fight with the newly Perfected Cell. The scene goes to where we see the Room of Spirit and Time or to Funimation dub the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Gohan is off in a distants training by himself as Goku is sitting down and seems to be meditating, then suddenly Goku stands up to Gohan's curiousity and transforms to a Super Saiyan then beings to power up more and he goes into his ASSJ power up. Gohan surprised at this runs over to his dad and is amazed but Goku lets Gohan know he can power up more and then he powers up to the USSJ power up. That is when Goku notices the flaws in the more power but less speed as seen when the episode goes back and forth to the battle with Trunks and Cell. Trunks can't hit Cell for anything, no matter how hard he trys. That is also when Goku informs Gohan that they need a way to stay in Super Saiyan form without the emotional side effect or the quick draining of their SSJ powers, hint the FPSSJ.
In episode 244 of Dragonball Z when Goku said he was an ascended super saiyan he meant he was a super saiyan 2. So the super saiyan 2nd grade in this article should be changed to Ultra Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3rd grade should be changed to Ultra Super Saiyan 2. Just Tell me why you agree or disagree.
Saying that "a child's body cannot contain the power of a Super Saiyajin 4" or whatever is speculation. It isn't "common sense". It isn't stated anywhere in GT or any other source that this is the case. You know what would make more sense? Goku turns into an adult because as a Super Saiyajin 4 his power exceeds that of the dragon who forced him into a child's body, temporarily breaking the spell. THAT would makesense. However, GT doesn't NEED to "make sense" to us, and even that explanation I gave is speculation. Okay. So. Let's say that what you claim is true, and a child's body can't contain the power of a Super Saiyajin 4, and thus Goku turns into an adult when he transforms. Let's just pretend this makes sense for now. Where does Goku's shirt go when he transforms? Why do his pants and other clothes change size to accomodate his adult body? Where did the pants come from the first time when he transformed from an Ougan Oozaru with NO clothes, to a much smaller humanoid? How does any of that make sense? The answer? It doesn't. The writers of GT put so many inconsistencies and senseless things in that series, it's not even funny. Do NOT go making up explanations for things when they aren't needed, and aren't supported by any sources. That's all.
Daishokaioshin 09:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Super Saiyan 4 is a different transformation than super saiyan, super saiyan 2, and super saiyan 3. When goku goes super saiyan 4 he becomes an adult. If another saiyan child becomes super saiyan 4 they too will be adults as a super saiyan 4. I agree lets not put any speculation in there. I doubt goku broke the spell of the dragon when he becomes super saiyan 4 since he is still a child as a super saiyan and super saiyan 3. Goku would still be a child if he were to go super saiyan 2 in Dragonball GT. It makes sense that if a nonadult saiyan goes super saiyan 4 he too will become an adult but that is just speculation of mine.
i think the only reason he stayed an adult is the same reason akira didn't make female super saiyans -- Ditre 01:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
this whole discussion could end with saying "thats how the SSJ4 transformation works". if the size of a saiyan in ozaro form is similar weather the saiyan is an adult or a child, then this transformation could work under the same "rules". and as for the clothing generation we see clothing being created through the fusion dance, does that come from anywhere? -Evirus 69.14.33.214 07:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
"this whole discussion could end with saying "thats how the SSJ4 transformation works"." This is very true. The OP has an extremely valid point by pointing out that Dragonball Z and GT have shown children attain SSJ1-3. The one time we see a child go SSJ4, he immediatly becomes an adult. There's no argument against it. Saying thats just speculation is a sign of pure ignorance. As for the random clothes? Piccolo creates clothes out of thin air. We're never told how he does it, he just does. Different clothing is randomly generated from the fusion dance. How? We don't know, but it's there. Goku's clothes changed to fit his adult SSJ4 appearance. How? We don't know, but stating that the OP's claim is speculation is the same as speculating whether or not Goku's clothes did in fact changes to fit his adult self. Sure you see it clear as day, but you also see a child transform into SSJ4 and become an adult as a result, but you ignore that fact, so why not ignore other obvious facts?
Lately there's been a lot of back and forth editing because there are few recordings of Gohan achieving the first USSJ form. I've watched the entire Cell Saga to make certain I was right, Gohan appears to turn USSJ inside of the Room of Spirit and time during Episode 150 "The Cell Games" (in the US espisodes).
If you follow this link, you can look at the episode and see for yourself: http://www.dailymotion.com/kobe3/video/xq7io_dbz-150-the-cell-games
In this episode, Gohan turns Super Saiyan at 3:21. He says a few words then at 3:28 his Super Saiyan aura becomes darker and thicker (like USSJ Vegeta when he fought Cell in his second form; you can really see how his aura has changed when the view shows his whole body) and his hair changes shape. His hair sticks up more rigidly and becomes a bit longer (which becomes apparent when you see him start executing fighting moves) and he pauses a few seconds as he strains under the extra power (just as Vegeta did when he powered into USSJ). Goku watches Gohan in this form and that's when he realizes the flaws of the Ultra Super Saiyan form as he demonstrates to Gohan. Watching Gohan train as an USSJ lets Goku see the form from an outside perspective and recognize its weaknesses. Full Shunyata 18:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
You are wrong Full Shunyata, Gohan was a super saiyan 1st grade or in other words a super saiyan 1. The reason his hair sticks up more is because he is powering up and that is how his super saiyan form looked like. Why do you think Gohan was surpised when he saw Goku become an Ultra Super Saiyan? Gohan was trying to learn how to stay as a super saiyan without losing too much energy. Gohan's muscles did not bulk up like Vegeta, Goku, and Future Trunks did. You should see that when Gohan is reverting to his normal state.
Like I said before he is only powering up. If you look closely you noticein 4:35 while he is a super saiyan and 4:37 when he is in his normal state that the muscle mass is the same. In episode 146 Vegeta Must Pay Gohan still has a dark aura. Gohan never reached super saiyan 2nd grade and 3rd grade. Gohan did become a super saiyan 2. The reason his hair sticks up is because that is what he looks like as a super saiyan. Gohan is just a super saiyan in episode 150 The Cell Games not a super saiyan 2nd grade. Gohan is only trying to stay as a super saiyan without draining too much energy.
You want a offical source to show you Gohan never aquired the two other grades of super saiyan. Pick up volume 33, chapter 387 (japanese) or volume 17, chapter 193 Dragon Ball Z (US) and read them as well as the official guides to Dragon Ball, the Daizenshuu books and in them it only states that Vegeta, M-Trunks and Goku in that order were the only ones to ascended to ASSJ and M-Trunks and Goku in that order to ascend to USSJ. Also go and hit the search site like Google, Ask and Yahoo search and see if anything comes up on Gohan ascending other than him becoming a SSJ2. I just did that and nothing came up on him powering up to those forms. In the manga it is shown that Gohan is only a normal super saiyan training to maintain his powers, strenghten himself and to see how long he can stay in his super saiayn form as Gohan was not a super saiyan in the ROSAT for too long despite the time difference( at best he was only in the ROSAT a FEW months the rooms time and only resently in the room became a super saiyan). It was only Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time at that time to become a ASSJ and USSJ because he already was accustom to his SSJ powers and had to find away to ascend. That is way Gohan was so surprised at what Goku was doing. You can not go off the anime to tell if he was at another level as many of the artist how draw for the anime had different drawing styles despite most still looked the same and mess up on some things. Every 4 or 5 episodes are drawn by a different artist. When those episodes end the cycle begins with the first artist in the group. Also alot of stuff in the anime is draw a little different then it is in the manga. For example there is an issue with Gohan and him in his SSJ form that looks like his SSJ2 without the electric aura in anime when he is just a SSJ in the manga. Another example is during Goku and Majin Vegeta's fight they are SSJ2s but the first episode of that fight,230. The Long Awaited Fight (Second episode after they become SSJ2s)is drawn with them in there normal SSJ forms while the other episodes229. Vegeta’s Pride ,231. Magical Ball of Buu, 232. Buu is Hatched (drawn by different artist) after that one and the first episode, 228. The Dark Prince Returns when they transformed before the fight begins has them as SSJ2s. Many things can be drawn by the artist of the anime that will confuse you but is you must go by the manga to get the right info on transformations. So far there is no offical source not even from Japan to give us a reason to put Gohan on the ASSJ and/or USSJ list of users.
Go to your User page and I leave you a message on you question about Gohan and Dabura. Don't want to turn this talk page into a forum. Cool? Heat P 11:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
In the description, it states: A Super Saiyan (超サイヤ人 sūpā saiyajin)
I'd just like to point out that the kanji listed there, 超, has the sound "chō", or ちょう, if you're familiar with hiragana at all.
I poked around a little bit, and after some googling, I found that in japanese, SSJ is referred to in one of two ways, 超サイヤ人(chō saiyajin), as well as スーパーサイヤ人(sūpā saiyajin).
From what I've found, no combination of the kanji 超 with any other sounds is pronounced sūpā. I suppose I could be wrong, and I wouldn't know how it's written in the original manga(perhaps they were "creative"). I figured I'd post here before editing anything. 69.148.172.216 08:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Goku references Super Saiyan 2 as Ascended at one point in the anime, as does Gohan I believe. If someone could look up the ep and get a quote, that would be fantastic =P
Creation Destruction 19:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Goku said that in episode 245 Super Saiyan 3?! He said mentions that super saiyan 2 is an ascended super saiyan. He also says that in episode 248 Goku's time is up when he showed goten and Trunks super saiyan 3 but he showed them super saiyan and super saiyan 2 before super saiyan 3.
We should get Manga quotes, those are more accurate then Anime ones, not to mention WAY more accurate then Dubbed anime ones. Does anyone agree? -- Majinvegeta 04:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes I agree with you. Use manga quotes unless it is said in a filler episode. Heat P 14:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a beef. I don't think Super Saiyan 2nd and 3rd grades are actually SSJ forms. Trunks and Vegeta thought so, but SSJ 2 is the next level up from a Super Saiyan. Cell demonstrated that he could assume this so-called "form," and didn't Freeza do it as well, when he went to full power? Which makes me think anyone can do it, which would mean that it is not a unique transformation of the Saiyan race. If it's not their own transformation, it shouldn't bear their name.
I agree with the above poster. USSJ and USSJ2 aren't really SSJ forms, just beefed up versions of Super Saiyan. Master Roshi does a similar thing when he powers up to his maximum strength.
4.252.209.120
16:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
If you notice under the contents of the page it saids.
* 4.1 False Super Saiyan * 4.2 Super Saiyan o 4.2.1 Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan o 4.2.2 Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan o 4.2.3 Full-Power Super Saiyan * 4.3 Legendary Super Saiyan * 4.4 Super Saiyan 2 * 4.5 Super Saiyan 3 * 4.6 Super Saiyan 4
This shows you that ASSJ, USSJ, and FPSSJ are under the Super Saiyan catagory. Telling you that these three power ups are just a sort of sub form of a SSJ form. It does not actually mean they are true SSJ forms only another form of the original SSJ. They are on this page because they are part of the original Super Saiyan powers. Heat P 19:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Um, since we have Future Trunks, what about Future Gohan? SUIT, give an insight on this baby. ( Seong0980 11:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC) )
Good point. If Onio is on the list why not Future Gohan?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.202.139 ( talk • contribs)
Cell IS technically a Super Saiyan, is he not? Granted he doesn't have hair and his eyes don't change, but he has Saiyan blood (more then Goku Jr even, believe it or not) and his aura is a Super Saiyan aura. Should he be put on the list? -- Majinvegeta 00:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
That is a crazy thing. As according to the Jap Wikipedia site (with someone told me we really can't use as a reference) they consider Cell an artifical Saiyan and is shown to be in many of the list of Super Saiyans. But that is something that should be put on the WP:DBZ MJ. Heat P 18:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Just because he has Saiyan cells doesn't make him a Super Saiyan, or even a saiyan at all. He's an android. All the Saiyan cells do is give him more power after a battle. And besides, the aura's in the anime aren't even a reliable source considering that characters aura's change colors over time. Like for instance how Vegeta's aura was purple during the Cell saga, but during the Buu saga, his aura is white. Or how the animators game Super Saiyan's lightning around their bodies, even though the Tenkaichi game and the manga has only certain stages have those. And just because he has a yellow aura doesn't make him a Super Saiyan. So thus, false information shouldn't be added. Ryu Ematsu 18:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Cell is not a super saiyan but he does have the powers of a super saiyan.
~~Aura's are rather unreliable for judging this usually, but, in the manga (chapter:219 Gohan's Pain) when Cell comes back after self-destructing he states
"...Now I'm complete without #18. And I've powered up-like son Gohan. It must have been my saiyan cells-a boost in power after a brush with death."
and his aura is identical to gohan's SSJ2 aura, not just similar, but identical. --Solostryker 11:07 March 10, 2007 (est)
In the article it says: "The legend states that every one thousand years in the Dragon Ball universe (three thousand years in the English dubbed version) a Super Saiyan is born, his true power awakened through rage. This Saiyan, called a Super Saiyan, would be recognized as the strongest being in the Universe, wielding what was considered limitless power.". In the English dub episode 53 Vegeta talks about the legend of the Super Saiyan saying: "After 3 millenniums its finally happened, a new super saiyan has emerged.". He says nothing about every 3000 years this happens, only that it finally has happened again, in another part he says: After 3000 years another super saiyan has emerged. But the last super saiyan could only maintain his status in the tranformed state."(transformed state meaning Ozaru). The last Super Saiyan's power was not the result of rage, rather the result of transformation which multiplies the Saiyans power level 10 fold. He did say however: "One day his rage erupted and he was destroyed by his own power." but not that he obtained his Super Saiyan status through rage. This description of a Super Saiyan only fits Broly as having unlimited power and all the other descriptions of the legendary Super Saiyan. Lucasthalefty 17:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
oh an a quick on the side irrelevant question, do video games count as Cannon? Maybe only certain ones? Get back to me on that because it could be a whole new field to base some facts on.
Lucasthalefty
17:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Well the info you are providing is that of when Funimation and Pioneer combined dubbed DBZ episodes. We on the project page WP:DBZ are not trying to use the dubbed version of DBZ since it has a lot of faults in the dubbing. Especially the combined efforts of Funimation and Pioneer. Most of the info on the page is from the manga version of DB, thats why it says three thousand years in the English dubbed version after the original legend statement begins. The actual legend is from the manga version of DBZ. As for the video games we really can't use them for facts as they have some faults in them too. Heat P 18:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Plus Vegeta heard about the legendary super saiyan but didn't know what it looked like before goku went super saiyan.
Give me some good points here and don't start any useless personal attack battles, shouldn't Golden Oozarus be part of this article? To keep it brief I'm pretty sure that a Golden Oozaru is the same thing as a Super Saiyan Oozaru, a Super Saiyan Oozaru was mentioned in episode 53 talking about the last Super Saiyan who arose 3000 years ago. Even if the idea was taken farther in GT, the Golden Oozaru was originally mentioned in DBZ and should be listed as having existed. Also there's always a lot of debate about cannon and GT but I see that Super Saiyan 4 is in the article so why not have the Golden Oozaru too, especially since it was talked about in DBZ. Lucasthalefty 17:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually you are right that the Golden Oozaru is the Super Saiyan version of the Oozaru form but since it is an Oozaru their really is no need to add it to the Super Saiyan page since it is on the Oozaru page. Having it on two pages explaining the same is really irrelevant. As so you have to read the manga version of that or at less see the japanese version of that episode to get the real explanation. Also the Golden Oozaru is really exclusive to the anime as in the manga it never shows the Golden Oozaru in Vegeta's explanation. Heat P 18:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe a link to the Golden Oozaru section of the Oozaru page should be added in with the others being that it dose fall under the category of Super Saiyan and this would also keep the information from being on 2 pages, what are your thoughts. Lucasthalefty 03:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you think Gogeta is SSJ or SSJ2? I believe he's a SSJ2 because he has lightning surrounding him, which is present only in forms above SSJ. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 23:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC) 71.183.44.106 ( talk) 23:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
Does each super saiyan level increase a saiyans power a certain amount? Transforming into a oozaru (giant monkey) increases a saiyan's power level by 10 (for example, power level 18,000 Vegeta is 180,000 in oozaru). I heard that there is also an annual power increase when becoming a super saiyan. Wasn't it around 100 times a saiyan's normal power for super saiyan 1? Zachorious 02:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The list of super saiyans lists onio, from NMZ as a super saiyan. Since Z went SSJ(somehow) in the manga, should he be listed as one too? On top of that, should he be considered SSJ2, since the manga identified SSJ2 with the lightning in the aura ANYTIME somone went SSJ2, and Z has that when he powers up.
Apparently you are mistaking Super Neko Majin as a Super Saiyan. That is a big false. Neko Majin is the name of the race of Cat Genies that Z belongs to as the Neko Majin article states. In one of your edits, you say that Akira Toriyama states that Z says he is a Super Neko Majin. That is right, Z is a Neko Majin not a Saiyan and he has a Super Saiyan-like transformation called, get this Super Neko Majin. Neko Majin is not Z's name it is his race like Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans. So no Z is not a Super Saiyan he is a Super Neko Majin. He is not Super Saiyan Z. He is Super Neko Majin Z. Heat P 04:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
It was still written by Akira Toriyama as him going SSJ...So he went SSJ.
Sorry no. It is written Super Neko Majin. Also if A. Toriyama does state that Z did become a Super Saiyan out right and not say he looks like one or intimates, one can you give us the reference, meaning can you give us the manga number, what page and what the exact words are? Because it seems you are just going off what the Wikipedia article says which can be edited as I already done and fixed it. Not the actual manga. See there are many things in Toriyama works or Toei Studios that look, act and may feel the same. Like Cell, He has Saiyan DNA in him and has Saiyan abilities and his aura perfectly mimics Super Saiyan aura and powers. However do to him being a organic cybernetic being mixed with all types of other DNA he can not be call a Super Saiyan and we have Bojack and his henchman Gokua. Both have what looks like a Super Saiyan-like power up that changes their hair color, boast their power, strength and speed but since they are not of the Saiyan race they are not Super Saiyan. Same goes for Z. He may have a SSJ like transformation but he is not a Sayian and it is call Super Neko Majin. So again Z is not a Super Saiyan. Heat P 04:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Just because Goku transformed into a SSJ2 and Z shows him he has a SSJ-like transformation call by Z himself Super Neko Majin. Again it is a SSJ like transformation. I am looking at the page. Neko Majin Z#5 Page 187 the last two panels. Again Z is not a Saiyan he is a Neko Majin. again he is not a Super Saiyan, he is a Super Neko Majin. Toriyama did not make him a SSJ he only gave Z that SSJ like ability as a spoof off of Goku's SSJ2 form to fight him. You are trying to put false info on this page because of you beliefs and not facts. Only one fact that Z has a SSJ like transformation but you keep overlooking bigger facts. Heat P 05:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
For the record, Goku went SSJ, not SSJ2. Akira Toriyama has drawn Goku with two very distinct hairstyles between SSJ and SSJ2. Look at his hair again, clearly SSJ. Z himself says Goku is only in SSJ. Yes, there is electricity. Onio has electicity too and states he is only in SSJ. When Vegeta goes SSJ, he has electricity and Onio warns him that SSJ won't work. He clearly says NOTHING about SSJ2. And yes, Z isn't a Super Saiyan. He somehow managed to mimic the SSJ transformation and became a Super Neko Majin. Keep in mind Mr. Toriyama himself stated Vegetto was only SSJ and not SSJ2 and yet Vegetto had electricity. 12.210.212.75 06:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the Edit war practically stopped, all you frequent Dragon Ball editors are to thank for that (and a select few IP people). That's a good thing, perhaps we can keep it that way. Good job guys. -- Majinvegeta 19:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to discuss this first because in the first Broly movie, it stated that Planet Vegeta was destroyed the day Goku was sent to Earth, however in the manga and anime, it was destroyed three years before Raditz's arrival on Earth (Which would make goku in his 20s). I think we should use the anime/manga date, but I just wanted to discuss first. -- Majinvegeta 02:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
As everyone should know by now, there are quite a few people that come onto wiki and edit the article saying he became one. I put the part about him in there to put an end to the edits, without disturbing the truth of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 ( talk) 21:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
And on the wierd hair color, it was that color because of his controller (which glowed green). After it broke, his hair took on a more "normal" tone. Onikage725 14:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
We need to keep in mind that the giji form only exists as a seperate transformation in the 4th movie. That is the only confirmed instance of it. Broli in the flashback was SSJ because nothing is ever said about them re-using the giji SSJ form and he is only referred to as SSJ in movie 8. "Giji" SSJ was a retcon- Toei said Goku was SSJ in movie 4, but the movie was made before the end of the Freeza fight and they didn't have the coloring right. So the Daizenshuu retconned it by describing it as a pseudo-SSJ state that was incomplete and unstable. It is *never* mentioned again. One could argue that some characters (like Gohan and Future Trunks) hit something similar while on trying to power up into SSJ when they were on the verge, but it is never maintained as a seperate form. Onikage725 22:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Quick question about Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan stage...
In Dragonball Z episode 230 "Super Saiyan 3?!" where Goku goes SSJ3 for the first time, he demonstrates how he goes from regular state to SSJ1, SSJ2, and then finally SSJ3 to Babidi and Majin Buu. When he does this, he mentions to Babidi and Majin Buu that an ascended SSJ is also known as SSJ2. If this is correct, doesnt that make the reference to Super Saiyan 2nd grade/Ascended Super Saiyan on this page incorrect? I was always under the impression that what Goku says in this episode makes more sense; an "Ascended Super Saiyan" assumes by definition that one has moved past the Super Saiyan (SSJ1) state and into SSJ2. Make sense? Thoughts??
The difference between a SSJ1 and SSJ2 from what I can see in the tv anime is that the SSJ2 has small static lightning bolts that pulse up and down the character's body. When in the SSJ1 state, these bolts arent visible or evident. Other than that, the appearances seem remarkably similar...
If this is correct, than cant we add Vegeta and Future Trunks to the list of characters in DBZ that reached SSJ2?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.132.111.26 ( talk) 03:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
To be perfectly clear, USSJ was a fan term that. Ascended is a FUNimation term. Ultra is another FUNi term that borrows from the fandom. In the original dialogue, Goku refers to them as "transformations of the first stage." Vegeta and Trunks refer to them as "Stage 2/3 (respectively) of Super Saiyan." The manga also frequently refers to SSJ2 as having gone beyond (I suppose one could say ascended past) Super Saiyan. Onikage725 14:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Drat, i lost my password. Anyhoo, there seems to be a bit of dissagreement between sources that I want cleared up. Some websites claim that you need to be a high power level to transform, but do not state anything about multiplied power level. Others say nothing about required power level but claim that the transformation greatly increases power. And others, such as this article, seem to claim that you need to be a sufficient power level, and it increases power. I think we should put the generally accepted theory here, unless it already is, or if there isnt one. So what is it? -Purple Pikmin
OK, I archived it. The discussions actively going on had nothing to do with the article. Don't bring them up again. Nemu 17:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
What the hell dude. DONT delete my last comment on there (in my "Broly is stronger than you guys think" thread) and then hide it and disable the editing tool so that I cant reply! This is pissing me off. I KNOW I am right! Jrapidfire 07:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Heat P 09:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean? It is relevant to the article. We ARE talking about Super Saiyans here are we not? Jrapidfire 08:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I fixed up the descriptions of the forms, they are fairly easy to read and are clear in the descriptions, hopefully you guys like them. Majinvegeta
I've never heard of an incomplete Super Saiyan being referred to as "Quasi", Quasi is French and means "half", but still, is this word appropriate to use considering that Dragonball Z has nothing to do with the French language? Majinvegeta
It's not just about using English. It's also about making sense. Really I doubt people causally reading feel like looking up giji. That also brings up the fact that none of the other names take the Japanese names. Just because the name was never used in the movie, we should use one Japanese word out of eight others? I don't know if it's just me, but that looks silly. Until the article is named "sūpā saiyajin" leave it as an English word. I don't really care if it get put back as false, but don't change it back to giji because you find it to be more correct than some English word. Nemu 11:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
So, anyone plan on responding to me? Nemu 11:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I'm sick of people randomly leaving when they have decided that they've won without actually deciding anything. Nemu 13:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Well I Googled the word and I came up with so real interesting results, the word Giji has quite a few meanings when i transtaled it into English and believe it or not all of you guys and gals seem to be right but to some extent you are wrong too. Here's how. Giji means suspected (pref), quasi-, pseudo-, sham, and false from Japanese to English, and it also means character of questionable form and means questionable word(not that word but the meaning of other words). So Quasi Super Saiyan, False Super Saiyan, and Pseudo Super Saiyan all seem right when at first, however checking out the other words, I came up with some different results. False from English to Japanese means ese. So False Super Saiyan seems to be the wrong translation for that. Quasi a Italian word, not french word was put into English and means almost or nearly. So in Italy Quasi Super Saiyan is right but not in America. Pseudo, a Croatian word means bogus. So Pseudo Super Saiyan is close in Croatian but not in the English. So in reality Giji truly translated into English only means Suspected and Sham. However the prefered uses of Giji is Suspected. So in reality the translation for Giji Supa Saiyaijn is Suspected Super Saiyan. Does make more sense. If you wanna check it out yourselves Google the words as Giji, Translation togther and many sites will come up, but check out Eudict.com and you get translations I have explained. hope that help you out Nemu? Heat P 07:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I did my research on a Tranlation site. A legit translation site. go check it out. So in a more common translation for the word giji the word suspected (again a more common translation) is a more buyable translation for it not quasi or pseudo despite quasi coming real close and pseudo meaning bogus in the english language. I gave you that site to check out. Did you or you wanna put you opinion on my research saying its wrong. yes giji means all those things as I said before but when i translated those word into english the other words came up with other meanings in the english language and i also translated them into japanese with the some of the same results. So despite the true origins for those word Quasi and being adopted by the english language, so you say. The word giji is more commomly translated to the words suspected and sham. Where did you translate the word? also i tried to translate the words Quasi from english to japanese and you know what? it said that word can not be found in the english language to translate. But Pseudo come up as giji, so i will give you that. So you say Quasi is vaild? maybe but as of the english, i shall repeat it to ENGLISH language giji is again more commomly translated into suspected and sham, maybe even pseudo but not Quasi as you would like to use. Heat P 12:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a question. Did Movie 4 come out before Goku did the actual Super Saiyan transformation in the manga or after? We all know that it came out before the anime version, but if it came out before the manga then it may help with the discussion you guys are having about the why the translation of the word giji. I mean if it came before then false is not the word to use since the movie came first, but if it came after then false maybe the word to use. SSD4
Ok so I wanna ask my fellow Dragonball Fans like myself a question. We have the translated words for Giji. So I ask you guys and gals do we keep it as such or go on and come to an agreement on which word to translate for the title of the GSSJ form? Should we keep it Giji Super Saiyan with False Super Saiyan translated in the desciption paragraph or title it with such translations as False SSJ, Suspected SSJ, Quasi SSJ, Pseudo SSJ, or "Questionable Form" SSJ or Questionable SSJ Form (Giji also means questionable form). Just wondering what you guys and gals think? Heat P 19:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
If you did change that Nemu I think I can live with that. Thats good we got a translation on the word and you got the other translated name along side it so people can understand what it means. Good job if it was you Nemu.
Heat P
03:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
HEY!!! Why is someone changing the title of GSSJ to a translation of the word then someone else changing it back? Can you people figure out what you want? Come to an agreement and leave the name alone. That is irratating seeing people do that. Is it that hard? You guys got the translations, Fix it. Stop playing cat and mouse on the article. You confusing the heck out off people. SSD4 07:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Man you guys are really killing me. Can we come to a unanimous agreement. I have check this page at less six times today and the word has been changed at less three time. Can't we all just get along? Heat P 12:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Na i wont disagree. I agree. It's cool. Just happy (I hope) that something was finally agreed uppone. Everything you wrote made sense to me. It's ok with me. Heat P 12:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I like the way this article is turning out, it is more sophisticated and detailed then the older one and it is highly accurate in descriptions. And even the original names of the forms are included in the text. Please continue with the cleanups and give yourselves a pat on the back! :) Majinvegeta
Should we make one? It has been made fun of in various parodies. So far I can recall it being made fun of on Codename: Kids Next Door(Some episode, forget the deatails), Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo(Both in a special chapter and in the series in general), Neko Majin Z(obvious) and on a Saturday Night Live skit. Can anyone else remember some others? Should we also mention the story or whatever the Super Saiyan was based of off somewhere(opening or something)? Nemu 22:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah, if we can find sources, maybe we should mention Super Sonic and I think a couple of other game series. We'll need definite sources seeing as they could just be based off of the folk tale or whater turning gold comes from(I think it's some sort of Japanese/Chinese folk tale or something). Nemu 22:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't find a source at the moment, but I thought I once read Trey Parker and Matt Stone say the scene in South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut where Cartman shorts out his V chip was a parody of Super Saiyans. Electricity flies around him, his hair stands on end, and as he shouts off swear-words he fires off Dragon Ball-esque energy attacks. Did Megas XLR ever do one? THey parodied just about everything else. Onikage725 01:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A note on the recent edit/revert. While Im inclined to agree that others mastered the form inthe next saga, nothing was really said on it in the manga or anime. In fact the form itself isnt really a new form. It was a certain level of mastery over the base SSJ form (as opposed to 2nd/3rd grade), and was only labeled in the Daizenshuu. So, given the lack of specific information, adding other characters would count as original research. Onikage725
I agree with what your saying, i think the FPSSJ section should be merged with the SSJ section; simply talking about how goku and gohan planned to adjust to living normaly in the form to gain an advantage while fighting(similar to the use of weighted clothing) -Evirus 69.14.33.214 07:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Why include Onio? You reliaze it is just a self-parody. You won't find Onio in the manga of Dragonball Z or in the anime. Let's just stick to dragonball z and dragonball GT. What is next other super saiyan parodys will be included like No.4 from Kids Next Door and Bo-bobo?
Unlike those other parodies, Onio is a Saiyan. Neko Majin may be a parody, but it's by Akira Toriyama and the character is a Super Saiyan. Onikage725 21:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I argee. Being a Saiyan, Super Saiyan and a Akira Toriyama created character on a self parody created by AT, Onio is part of this article. Don't bring Bo-bobo or KND on this. They are created by different people and studios as well as THEY ARE NOT SAIYANS. Heat P 09:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. He is not in the manga or in the anime. Its just a joke since fat saiyans really can't go super saiyan in the manga and anime. Onio shouldn't be included. He also has a saiyan wife and there were no surviving female saiyans after Planet Vegeta was destroyed. The article is about real saiyans not fake ones.
What does the articles say that Onio is in? Saiyan and Super Saiyan. And if you wanna talk about real saiyans then Broly doesn't need to be here. In the Saiyan article Broly, Paragus, Tullece, And every saiyan in Bardock's special, except Bardock should not be in that article. As they are not in the actual anime or manga, but they are. Joke or not he is a Saiyan created by Akria Toriyama that is in a manga. These Saiyan articles is not direct articles on Dragonball despite them talking about Dragonball characters. Those are other articles. This and the other Saiyan article are articles directly about Saiyans. If the articles directly said something like Saiyans of Dragonball then thats a different story. But they say Saiyan and Super Saiyan. Leave it at that. Heat P 10:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It should be left with the dragonball z continuity. After all you won't find neko majin Z thats been translated in your local store. We should stick to those who did become super saiyans in the manga, anime, and dbz movies. Next thing you know you would probably but Broly as a giji super saiyan since he looks like one in movie 7. Broly is more canon than Onio. Just leave Onio in the Neko Majin Z article not the super saiyan article. You won't find Onio in Budokia Tenkaichi 2 why? Because he is a parody not a character that is actually in the dragonball Z series.
Saiyans and super saiyans comes from the dragonball z series. You shouldn't include saiyans from works outside of the dragonball continuity. Onio doesn't fit in there anyways. There are other saiyan parodys that is not included. In movie 7 when Broly goes "SSJ" his hair isn't yellow. The movie doesn't explain why Broly hair is different when he is a "SSJ". Just because Onio is created by AT doesn't mean he should be listed. Well at least mention that Onio is just a sayian parody and does not exist in the dragonball Z continutiy is only in the magna parody of dragonball z. You are giving mix messages about who can become super saiyan when including Onio.
Onio is an unofficial saiyan. What made you change your minds anyways? You mispell movie by the way. You guys use to agree that it is irreverent to add Onio. Super Saiyans do exist outside of Neko Majin Z as well. Onio is only a joke thats all. Lets not go outside of the dragonball continuity. It wouldn't hurt to not include Onio. Theres already an article about Neko Majin Z anyways.
Sorry about calling Broly's 1st movie movie 7. Thats on me. My bad Suit. Now to the guy that as no IP. You seem to have you mind made up. However the rest of us discussing this sees Onio as a Saiyan that can and is included in the article. So I got a Question to you? How is Onio a unofficial saiyan? Like I closely said earlier up top if you wanna call him unofficial, false, fake, or a joke than all other saiyans that appear in movies and in Bardock's special other than Bardock himself should not be including in any article that involves saiyans. But they are. You keep trying to say things that just doesn't make sense. And despite again it being a joke it is part of Dragonball believe it or not. If it is not than tell us why AT included Goku, Vegeta and Buu in that manga? I see if he put those three in it that in itself makes it part of the Dragonball community. Heat P 19:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Onio shouldn't count as a super saiyan. It just doesn't seem to fit in. Does it directly say Onio is a saiyan or is implied?
the user under IP 69.154.79.159 has removed Onio from the list 3 times already -- Ditre 20:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Broly is canon. Just because he is not in magna and the anime doesn't mean he is not canon take Garlic Jr for example. Neko Majin Z is not in the dragonball Continutiy even though there are cameos of dragonball Z characters. Neko Majin Z is about a Cat name Z which has nothing to do with the dragon ball continuity. The movies are canon. Many stories has plot holes and continuity errors in it so deal with it. Why list Neko Majin Z what's next Robot Chicken since it has cameos of dragonball Z characters in it? It won't hurt to not put Onio on the list. Lets just stick with dragonball, dragonball Z, and dragonball GT. Just leave Onio on the Neko Majin Z page.
The list of super saiyans are not all from the dragonball contiuity. So all the super saiyan on the list are the list of the ones Toriyama created?
If you remove Onio for being non-canon, that'd be fine with me but you'll also have to remove Broly, False Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4 since they're non-canon too.
Saying that Broly, False Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4 are not canon is an opinion not a fact. Onio is the only one that is not canon since he is not in the dragonball continuity. Please don't include super saiyan parodies especially from neko majin Z and TV funhouse.
just because he isn't part of the Dragon ball continuity doesn't dismiss him from the list, its about super saiyans, not the continuity, and Akira Toriyama being the actual maker of the series makes Onio an actual saiyan and not just fan art -- Ditre 19:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
pariodies don't count. Onio is irreverent and inconstant. Let's just leave where it was before Onio was put on. It was only a joke and not meant to be put on the super saiyan list. Lets limit to the dragonball continutiy.
Akira Toriyama's word and creations count whether they're parody or not. Toriyama invented Super Saiyan 1, and he invented Onio. He stays.
Onio is inconsistent with what? the dragon ball continuity? well the title of this article isn't Super Saiyans (Dragon Ball) its just Super Saiyan, and toriyama gets to make actual super saiyans outside of the dragon ball continuity if he wants to, like i said, hes not fan art, Onio is an actual making of Toriyama's work. you need to read the rest of whats here instead of just adding "onio shouldn't be on the list omygawdz" -- Ditre 05:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Movies are Canon. Take the Garlic Junior saga for example. Onio is only a joke. There are other parodies that have other super saiyans in it. Onio is more of a fan work done by Toriyama than an actual creation. Movies are part of the dragonball series. Onio should be removed. He doesn't match the dragonball continuity. Goku appeared in Robot Chicken but I don't hear you arguing about it. Lets just stick with the anime, movies, and dragonball series manga.
Those are opinions not facts. Frieza never had a son. Neko Majin Z is not part of the dragonball series. Yes it would be a good idea to remove Onio from the saiyan list. Just leave Onio and Kuriza in the Neko Majin Z page. The Super Saiyan page is suppose explain about where super saiyans came from and what they are. Listing a Parody will confuse things and make it sounds irreverent to the article. Plus it is unlikely that a fat saiyan could become a super saiyan anyways not to mention his hair is too short but that is just an opinion just like yours.
Neko Majin Z is not actually part of the Dragonball continuity. It is just a parody making fun of stuff from Dragonball Z. Parodies shouldn't be listed. It is very confusing. Frieza is probably alive in Neko Majin Z since he has a son. In the dragonball Z Frieza was killed by Trunks. The reason the message before you said a fat saiyan is unlikely to become a super saiyan is because Fat Gogeta and Fat Gotenks couldn't become Super Saiyans. It does make sense that really really short hair saiyans probably couldn't become super saiyans since the hair won't stand up. Onio should be on a separate page that explains Neko Majin Z.
it wouldn't be a good idea to give onio his own page, there isn't enough information on him to justify it -- Ditre 22:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You could just leave Onio in the Neko Majin Z page instead of listing him in the Super Saiyan page. I guess you guys feel strongley about Onio being on the super saiyan list despite it being a parody. I just hope you guys don't go too far and put other parodies in there like Kobayashi going Super Saiyan in TV Funhouse. You guys are probably going to put other super saiyan parodies in there since you feel so strongely about it. Is Onio the only super saiyan in Neko Majin Z?
Someone went and erased Onio and the the part about the self-parody Neko Majin at the top of the page. I decided to just leave it alone myself because it is getting pointless to agrue over it, but I disagree with that since it was someone without a IP address that erased it that doesn't like that idea of Onio on the page and not a majority vote on keeping him on the page.
Onio must stay, whenever he is a self parody or not he is a Super Saiyan, the only real reason we have him here is because he was created by Toriyama is not like we are adding all kind of parodies here, other wise Muten Roshi would be on the list because of that short gag in Broli's movie. - Dark Dragon Flame 23:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I had heard once that because all the Saiyan characters in DBZ learned how to become Super Saiyans, that the legend about being a Super Saiyan was really talking about the fourth form seen in GT, but I didn't see anything about that in the article. Is it just a rumor? Gladrius 15:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Even though there are cameos of Dragonball Z characters in Neko Majin Z it is not part of the Dragonball Continutity. Notice there is no dragonball in its name. Neko Majin Z is about a cat name Z. After all Robot Chicken had dragonball Z characters but that is not being listed is it?
You shouldn't say dragonball GT is not canon after letting Onio on the super saiyan list.
"Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement, not for engaging in discussion for discussion's sake." That includes opinions, personal outlashes, Original Research statement, and personal attacks but you seem to ignore the rule Wikipedia put on here just to put you SO-CALLED facts on this like you done may times before. This is not a discussion forum, It doesnt help fix or enhance the article. You have a nack for doing things like that i see. You need to read the rules and regulations on talk pages before something is done about it. This "If you feel this is original research, that's nice, but I couldn't care less. I will say whatever I wish to, whether original research or not, and unless I introduce it into the article itself, you have absolutely NO justification for throwing rules at me. Try using that lump of fat in your head called a brain before talking again, hmm? :)" statement is a prime example of how childish this 24 year old is. I have every RIGHT to throw a rule at you when you clearly break them. Nothing personal from or for me, it just business.
Dragonball GT is a sequel to Dragonball Z not spinoff. Broly is the Legendary Super Saiyan according to Movie 8.
Spinoff, sequel same difference. Broly is the so called Super Saiyan of legend in the movies. No i am not saying non canon or not. Just movies are not part of the actual series, it's just part of the DBZ contiunity. So again no one knows what the original SSJ looked like so no one can say if Broly is or Goku is. Goku in the anime in consider the legendary super saiyan, movie wise its Broly but no one knows for sure. SSD4
What in the heck is wrong with you people. SSD4 you should not accuse someone of rule breaking. You seem to have done it yourself. Dai, I know dogon well I can't lecture you on it because I done it in the past and you help me understand that it's wrong, but what do you think you are doing using PROFANITY!!!, turning it into a forum, and you are taking this WAY TOO PERSONAL!!! You need to stop that now. Both of you. So Dai before someone at Wikipedia see that statement you may need to erase it. The last one the starts "OH F___" and the BULLS___ one. Now the statement that SSD4 was talking about is that one that say Dai you imply that DBGT has nothing to do with DBZ? You maybe somewhat right in a way but that is an opinion. It is however not an original research SSD4. You should no better than to put that on here. I know I can't really lecture you like I said but its true. But SSD4 you are bringing up something that has nothing to do with this article on Super Saiyans. Yes it is something that can be talked about but on DBGT article or DBZ article. My God what are you two thinking putting personal attacks infront of everyone's eyes? I know I can't really talk as I said again but someone had to. Heat P 05:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
1st off do not get on me ok. I feel you two are going way too far infront of eveyone that talks on this page. I do agree on termination of this talk but before that, go and look under Talk Page guildlines under Be polite ( Wikipedia:Civility), Wikipedia:Assume good faith, Wikipedia:Profanity, and content page Should Wikipedia Use Profanity?. It is a violation of using profanity but I don't wanna argue over that. It's not the right thing to do. Remember good faith, no personal attacks and be polite. You do take things way too personal sometimes, but I agree on this "SSD4" person is using this as a way to attack you. Just be careful arguing with hardheaded fools. As for you "SSD4" Dai has all rights to put a opinion on here as long as Dai doesn't edit the article with opinion. Also its not a Original Reseach she said. Since you have no IP I have to tell you this here. If you have a issue with Dai, go to Dai's IP address and take it up with Dai there and not here. This article is about SSJ, not DBGT or DBZ or a depate or personal attack forum. So as of now this is the end of this edit summary discussion. Heat P 08:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd say that LSSJ was the true form of Super Saiyan.
Broly is the Legendary Super Saiyan so deal with it. Sure he doesn't appear in the magna or anime but that doesn't mean he is not canon. The reason there is Broly is to explain why there could be more than one super saiyan as seen in the Trunks Saga. Broly has indeed become a legendary Super Saiyan. If you don't like it too bad. Movies are canon even though they don't fit in the timeline expect for movie 9 and 13.
Let's just go what we know. Broly is considered a Legendary Super Saiyan. During the Frieza saga no one knows what a super saiyan looked like. Vegeta imaged a super saiyan as being a giant ape. At one point Vegeta thought he was a Super Saiyan since he got so much stronger during the Frieza saga. Does the True Super Saiyan form refer to Super Saiyan 1 or Legendary Super Saiyan as in Broly?
I thought of something while reading the article. Would Gohan's "Latent Power Released" form -- the power form he used during the tail-end of the Majin Buu Saga where he was just as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 but showed little-to-no aura and lacked a change of hair and eye color -- be considered part of the "Super Saiyan" thing? I read the semi-article in Gohan's article and it said anyone can undergo the "Latent Power Released" ritual, but it also said that "Gohan would go Super Saiyan but there would only be a very slight difference in appearence."(Or something to that degree.) ~ Joseph Collins ( U)( T)( C) 10:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
i think gogetas final form should be some ware between ssj4 and ssj5. I dont belive he was ssj4 (shadowsok@aol.com)
i am not proposing he was ssj5 just more than ssj4. i am not basing this on power i am basing this on the change in fetures.
~~The so-called "Super Saiyan 5" was a piece of fan-art released with a few other pictures indicating a new DragonBall series known as AF. This is a myth, perhaps a practical joke by someone who wanted to throw the DB/Z/GT fans into a tail-spin. If you google it you can find up to "Super Saiyan 16" with all SSJ 5-16 being recolored forms of 1-4.
~~IMO power levels are irrelevant, it is the method of using the power that determines state. The "Giji Super Saiyan" was used when Goku's rage exploded, temporarily drawing out his full power, however he was unused to this power and was unable to control it, thus the short lifespan of the form. The Super Saiyan form was an improved form that allowed Goku to draw out all of his latent power, and control it. Super saiyan 2nd and 3rd grades are when that latent power is drawn out and multiplied, similar to the Kaio-ken but without the corresponding upswing in speed. The golden hair and green eyes common to Super Saiyan forms are a side effect caused by imperfect control, thus the increased spikiness is SSJ2 and the long hair is SSJ3. Super Saiyan 2 form allows the user to multiply his latent power and speed. Super Saiyan 3 form is merely a continuation of this, multiplying the latent powers to the greatest extent. However this sudden increase in power is difficult to control. Super Saiyan 4 forms greatest achievment was the complete stability and control of the form allowing the person to use incredible power without the "leakage" of the first 3 forms. The idling power level of the SSJ4 is close to 0, while still allowing instantaneous increase to full power. The only exception being Gogeta, who purposely unleashed an aura, since his power was so great that he could afford to waste it. --SoloStryker 10:35 March 10, 2007 (EST)
What's this "Dragon Ball/Z/GT Transformation Guide"? Is it an official published book, by Akira Toriyama? If there are names given in such a publication that are considered to be valid and reliable, then including them should be no problem. But as is? I don't think there's any reason to make the titles any longer than they already are, and it messes with links on a number of articles to change them. If you absolutely must include these alternate names, perhaps mentioning them as alternate names in the text UNDER the title might be a better choice.
Daishokaioshin 23:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys and gals I was looking over the article and nothice something I feel needs to be fixed. The names of Goku and the other Son's names. In some of the Super Saiyan level subjects it says Son Goku or Son Gohan and in others is just says Goku or Gohan. To fix this I wanted to see what you folks think and feel about it. If you agree we need to fix it, do we go with the Son family name or just keep it the given name. For those that don't understand what I mean. Should we use Son Goku and Son Gohan or just Goku and Gohan? Heat P 20:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
It should be Goku and Gohan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.221.217 ( talk • contribs)
To whoever keeps changing Goku and Gohan in the Super Saiyan 2 section to Son Goku and Son Gohan needs to stop. Unless you going to change all the Son character names to the Son family name in every section of this article leave it as such. One section does not need there names different then the others. So again unless you intend to change every Goku, Gohan and Goten in the article to Son Goku etc.... leave it be. Heat P 12:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
In the article, it says "In this form, the Saiyan's hair does not become golden, but instead retains its original color". Yet Vegeta's ahir is brown as seen in the series and noted below the above mentioned paragraph. This needs to be fixed but i don't know how to re-word the article + it's 1am in the morning where I am. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mjr4077au ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC).
Dai, I got a question that you, who have more knowlegde on Japanese language than anyone editing these DB articles can most likely answer. Like the other Super Saiyan sections other that SSJ2,3, and 4, they have the original Japanese names in the description paragraph. Would it be possible to put the Japanese word for the FPSSJ on it? I looked it up and Full Powered Super Saiyan came at as Sūpā Saiyajin Furu Pawā but I looked it up on the inertnet on the website www.Daizex.com. That site has alot of info on it collected from the Daizenshuus, Dragon Ball offical books like GT perfect guide and mangas. I don't want to add it without consulting someone with more knowledge than I do in the Japanese language or put something on here that actually may not be in the offical books. What you think? These also goes for anyone that can answer this but only to those who REAL know and not a comment you feel should be put.
FULL-POWER SUPER SAIYAN (Sûpâ Saiyajin Furu Pawâ) The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" is coined in the second daizenshuu
SUPER SAIYAN 2 (SSJ2) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Tsû) Originally called a Super Saiyan that surpasses that of a, or beyond that of a Super Saiyan
SUPER SAIYAN 3 (SSJ3) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Surî)
SUPER SAIYAN 4 (SSJ4) (Sûpâ Saiyajin Fô)
LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYAN (LSSJ) (Densetsu no Sûpâ Saiyajin) sixth daizenshuu ("MOVIES & TV SPECIALS").
"ASCENDED" and "ULTRA" SUPER SAIYAN (ASSJ,USSJ) ("ichi-dankai no henshin;" transformations of the first stage)
• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ichi-dankai (the normal Super Saiyan, or SSJ1)
• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai (ASSJ; the second stage of SSJ1)
• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai (USSJ; the third stage of SSJ1)
Ok I going to fix it back to False Super Saiyan. It been agreed on so leave it been. Do not start this up again.
Heat P 08:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I also went in and fix several thing that some unknown IP user decided to add on that really did't make sense of shouldn't have been put into this article.
Heat P 08:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Again so unknown IP address keeps on changing the False SSJ to Giji. Again it has been agreed on to have it as False. So I went and changed it back AGAIN and I will as long as whoever is doning keeps changing it.among some other things. if someone has a problem with it needs to speak up.
Heat P 06:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok I come to this article everyday for the past week and I come and see something is always missing, or changed. Today I came on and seen three things that got to me. One, under ASSJ some one puts supposely next to Goku and under USSJ Goku's name is completely taken off. Now if memory serves me correctly in the anime and manga Goku is shown powering up to both of this SSJ power up in the Room of Spirit and Time infront of his first born son Gohan. He may not have used them in a fight but he clearly was seen in these two powered up forms of the normal SSJ. why edit it to that crap earlier? Just to let you know I edited the corrections in. Two, everyday I come on this article, the picture of the SSJ4 is one day just Goku SSJ4 then the next Vegeta amd Goku SSJ4. Pick a picture and stick with it. PLEASE.
Heat P 20:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok someone is went through the article and added some real non sense but added some good points. So myself and SUIT are going through the article now and fixing up the problems. If anyone see something we don't please feel free to fix it.
i would like to know where the information about Son Goku was ever what is listed as an ascended and ultra super saiyan
-- Ditre 21:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Are you blind, do you read the manga, do you watch the anime. Goku is show powering up to show Gohan that he has found the way to ascended past his normal Super Saiyan powers and even notices the fault in the use of USSJ just as Trunks is fighting Cell in his USSJ form. If that does not help you how about his Daizehshuu has him listed as one of the users of this power up.
i watched the anime, never read the manga because theres no place near where i live that sells them... the only time i ever saw goku say he ascended to a level beyond a super saiyan is where he was referring to becoming a Super Sayain 2, because he didn't get bulgy like the others did
--
Ditre
03:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok I got you. If you got the Perfect Cell Saga I cant truly remember at this time what episode number but it's one of the episodes when Trunks beings his fight with the newly Perfected Cell. The scene goes to where we see the Room of Spirit and Time or to Funimation dub the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Gohan is off in a distants training by himself as Goku is sitting down and seems to be meditating, then suddenly Goku stands up to Gohan's curiousity and transforms to a Super Saiyan then beings to power up more and he goes into his ASSJ power up. Gohan surprised at this runs over to his dad and is amazed but Goku lets Gohan know he can power up more and then he powers up to the USSJ power up. That is when Goku notices the flaws in the more power but less speed as seen when the episode goes back and forth to the battle with Trunks and Cell. Trunks can't hit Cell for anything, no matter how hard he trys. That is also when Goku informs Gohan that they need a way to stay in Super Saiyan form without the emotional side effect or the quick draining of their SSJ powers, hint the FPSSJ.
In episode 244 of Dragonball Z when Goku said he was an ascended super saiyan he meant he was a super saiyan 2. So the super saiyan 2nd grade in this article should be changed to Ultra Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3rd grade should be changed to Ultra Super Saiyan 2. Just Tell me why you agree or disagree.
Saying that "a child's body cannot contain the power of a Super Saiyajin 4" or whatever is speculation. It isn't "common sense". It isn't stated anywhere in GT or any other source that this is the case. You know what would make more sense? Goku turns into an adult because as a Super Saiyajin 4 his power exceeds that of the dragon who forced him into a child's body, temporarily breaking the spell. THAT would makesense. However, GT doesn't NEED to "make sense" to us, and even that explanation I gave is speculation. Okay. So. Let's say that what you claim is true, and a child's body can't contain the power of a Super Saiyajin 4, and thus Goku turns into an adult when he transforms. Let's just pretend this makes sense for now. Where does Goku's shirt go when he transforms? Why do his pants and other clothes change size to accomodate his adult body? Where did the pants come from the first time when he transformed from an Ougan Oozaru with NO clothes, to a much smaller humanoid? How does any of that make sense? The answer? It doesn't. The writers of GT put so many inconsistencies and senseless things in that series, it's not even funny. Do NOT go making up explanations for things when they aren't needed, and aren't supported by any sources. That's all.
Daishokaioshin 09:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Super Saiyan 4 is a different transformation than super saiyan, super saiyan 2, and super saiyan 3. When goku goes super saiyan 4 he becomes an adult. If another saiyan child becomes super saiyan 4 they too will be adults as a super saiyan 4. I agree lets not put any speculation in there. I doubt goku broke the spell of the dragon when he becomes super saiyan 4 since he is still a child as a super saiyan and super saiyan 3. Goku would still be a child if he were to go super saiyan 2 in Dragonball GT. It makes sense that if a nonadult saiyan goes super saiyan 4 he too will become an adult but that is just speculation of mine.
i think the only reason he stayed an adult is the same reason akira didn't make female super saiyans -- Ditre 01:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
this whole discussion could end with saying "thats how the SSJ4 transformation works". if the size of a saiyan in ozaro form is similar weather the saiyan is an adult or a child, then this transformation could work under the same "rules". and as for the clothing generation we see clothing being created through the fusion dance, does that come from anywhere? -Evirus 69.14.33.214 07:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
"this whole discussion could end with saying "thats how the SSJ4 transformation works"." This is very true. The OP has an extremely valid point by pointing out that Dragonball Z and GT have shown children attain SSJ1-3. The one time we see a child go SSJ4, he immediatly becomes an adult. There's no argument against it. Saying thats just speculation is a sign of pure ignorance. As for the random clothes? Piccolo creates clothes out of thin air. We're never told how he does it, he just does. Different clothing is randomly generated from the fusion dance. How? We don't know, but it's there. Goku's clothes changed to fit his adult SSJ4 appearance. How? We don't know, but stating that the OP's claim is speculation is the same as speculating whether or not Goku's clothes did in fact changes to fit his adult self. Sure you see it clear as day, but you also see a child transform into SSJ4 and become an adult as a result, but you ignore that fact, so why not ignore other obvious facts?
Lately there's been a lot of back and forth editing because there are few recordings of Gohan achieving the first USSJ form. I've watched the entire Cell Saga to make certain I was right, Gohan appears to turn USSJ inside of the Room of Spirit and time during Episode 150 "The Cell Games" (in the US espisodes).
If you follow this link, you can look at the episode and see for yourself: http://www.dailymotion.com/kobe3/video/xq7io_dbz-150-the-cell-games
In this episode, Gohan turns Super Saiyan at 3:21. He says a few words then at 3:28 his Super Saiyan aura becomes darker and thicker (like USSJ Vegeta when he fought Cell in his second form; you can really see how his aura has changed when the view shows his whole body) and his hair changes shape. His hair sticks up more rigidly and becomes a bit longer (which becomes apparent when you see him start executing fighting moves) and he pauses a few seconds as he strains under the extra power (just as Vegeta did when he powered into USSJ). Goku watches Gohan in this form and that's when he realizes the flaws of the Ultra Super Saiyan form as he demonstrates to Gohan. Watching Gohan train as an USSJ lets Goku see the form from an outside perspective and recognize its weaknesses. Full Shunyata 18:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
You are wrong Full Shunyata, Gohan was a super saiyan 1st grade or in other words a super saiyan 1. The reason his hair sticks up more is because he is powering up and that is how his super saiyan form looked like. Why do you think Gohan was surpised when he saw Goku become an Ultra Super Saiyan? Gohan was trying to learn how to stay as a super saiyan without losing too much energy. Gohan's muscles did not bulk up like Vegeta, Goku, and Future Trunks did. You should see that when Gohan is reverting to his normal state.
Like I said before he is only powering up. If you look closely you noticein 4:35 while he is a super saiyan and 4:37 when he is in his normal state that the muscle mass is the same. In episode 146 Vegeta Must Pay Gohan still has a dark aura. Gohan never reached super saiyan 2nd grade and 3rd grade. Gohan did become a super saiyan 2. The reason his hair sticks up is because that is what he looks like as a super saiyan. Gohan is just a super saiyan in episode 150 The Cell Games not a super saiyan 2nd grade. Gohan is only trying to stay as a super saiyan without draining too much energy.
You want a offical source to show you Gohan never aquired the two other grades of super saiyan. Pick up volume 33, chapter 387 (japanese) or volume 17, chapter 193 Dragon Ball Z (US) and read them as well as the official guides to Dragon Ball, the Daizenshuu books and in them it only states that Vegeta, M-Trunks and Goku in that order were the only ones to ascended to ASSJ and M-Trunks and Goku in that order to ascend to USSJ. Also go and hit the search site like Google, Ask and Yahoo search and see if anything comes up on Gohan ascending other than him becoming a SSJ2. I just did that and nothing came up on him powering up to those forms. In the manga it is shown that Gohan is only a normal super saiyan training to maintain his powers, strenghten himself and to see how long he can stay in his super saiayn form as Gohan was not a super saiyan in the ROSAT for too long despite the time difference( at best he was only in the ROSAT a FEW months the rooms time and only resently in the room became a super saiyan). It was only Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time at that time to become a ASSJ and USSJ because he already was accustom to his SSJ powers and had to find away to ascend. That is way Gohan was so surprised at what Goku was doing. You can not go off the anime to tell if he was at another level as many of the artist how draw for the anime had different drawing styles despite most still looked the same and mess up on some things. Every 4 or 5 episodes are drawn by a different artist. When those episodes end the cycle begins with the first artist in the group. Also alot of stuff in the anime is draw a little different then it is in the manga. For example there is an issue with Gohan and him in his SSJ form that looks like his SSJ2 without the electric aura in anime when he is just a SSJ in the manga. Another example is during Goku and Majin Vegeta's fight they are SSJ2s but the first episode of that fight,230. The Long Awaited Fight (Second episode after they become SSJ2s)is drawn with them in there normal SSJ forms while the other episodes229. Vegeta’s Pride ,231. Magical Ball of Buu, 232. Buu is Hatched (drawn by different artist) after that one and the first episode, 228. The Dark Prince Returns when they transformed before the fight begins has them as SSJ2s. Many things can be drawn by the artist of the anime that will confuse you but is you must go by the manga to get the right info on transformations. So far there is no offical source not even from Japan to give us a reason to put Gohan on the ASSJ and/or USSJ list of users.
Go to your User page and I leave you a message on you question about Gohan and Dabura. Don't want to turn this talk page into a forum. Cool? Heat P 11:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
In the description, it states: A Super Saiyan (超サイヤ人 sūpā saiyajin)
I'd just like to point out that the kanji listed there, 超, has the sound "chō", or ちょう, if you're familiar with hiragana at all.
I poked around a little bit, and after some googling, I found that in japanese, SSJ is referred to in one of two ways, 超サイヤ人(chō saiyajin), as well as スーパーサイヤ人(sūpā saiyajin).
From what I've found, no combination of the kanji 超 with any other sounds is pronounced sūpā. I suppose I could be wrong, and I wouldn't know how it's written in the original manga(perhaps they were "creative"). I figured I'd post here before editing anything. 69.148.172.216 08:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Goku references Super Saiyan 2 as Ascended at one point in the anime, as does Gohan I believe. If someone could look up the ep and get a quote, that would be fantastic =P
Creation Destruction 19:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Goku said that in episode 245 Super Saiyan 3?! He said mentions that super saiyan 2 is an ascended super saiyan. He also says that in episode 248 Goku's time is up when he showed goten and Trunks super saiyan 3 but he showed them super saiyan and super saiyan 2 before super saiyan 3.
We should get Manga quotes, those are more accurate then Anime ones, not to mention WAY more accurate then Dubbed anime ones. Does anyone agree? -- Majinvegeta 04:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes I agree with you. Use manga quotes unless it is said in a filler episode. Heat P 14:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a beef. I don't think Super Saiyan 2nd and 3rd grades are actually SSJ forms. Trunks and Vegeta thought so, but SSJ 2 is the next level up from a Super Saiyan. Cell demonstrated that he could assume this so-called "form," and didn't Freeza do it as well, when he went to full power? Which makes me think anyone can do it, which would mean that it is not a unique transformation of the Saiyan race. If it's not their own transformation, it shouldn't bear their name.
I agree with the above poster. USSJ and USSJ2 aren't really SSJ forms, just beefed up versions of Super Saiyan. Master Roshi does a similar thing when he powers up to his maximum strength.
4.252.209.120
16:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
If you notice under the contents of the page it saids.
* 4.1 False Super Saiyan * 4.2 Super Saiyan o 4.2.1 Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan o 4.2.2 Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan o 4.2.3 Full-Power Super Saiyan * 4.3 Legendary Super Saiyan * 4.4 Super Saiyan 2 * 4.5 Super Saiyan 3 * 4.6 Super Saiyan 4
This shows you that ASSJ, USSJ, and FPSSJ are under the Super Saiyan catagory. Telling you that these three power ups are just a sort of sub form of a SSJ form. It does not actually mean they are true SSJ forms only another form of the original SSJ. They are on this page because they are part of the original Super Saiyan powers. Heat P 19:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Um, since we have Future Trunks, what about Future Gohan? SUIT, give an insight on this baby. ( Seong0980 11:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC) )
Good point. If Onio is on the list why not Future Gohan?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.202.139 ( talk • contribs)
Cell IS technically a Super Saiyan, is he not? Granted he doesn't have hair and his eyes don't change, but he has Saiyan blood (more then Goku Jr even, believe it or not) and his aura is a Super Saiyan aura. Should he be put on the list? -- Majinvegeta 00:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
That is a crazy thing. As according to the Jap Wikipedia site (with someone told me we really can't use as a reference) they consider Cell an artifical Saiyan and is shown to be in many of the list of Super Saiyans. But that is something that should be put on the WP:DBZ MJ. Heat P 18:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Just because he has Saiyan cells doesn't make him a Super Saiyan, or even a saiyan at all. He's an android. All the Saiyan cells do is give him more power after a battle. And besides, the aura's in the anime aren't even a reliable source considering that characters aura's change colors over time. Like for instance how Vegeta's aura was purple during the Cell saga, but during the Buu saga, his aura is white. Or how the animators game Super Saiyan's lightning around their bodies, even though the Tenkaichi game and the manga has only certain stages have those. And just because he has a yellow aura doesn't make him a Super Saiyan. So thus, false information shouldn't be added. Ryu Ematsu 18:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Cell is not a super saiyan but he does have the powers of a super saiyan.
~~Aura's are rather unreliable for judging this usually, but, in the manga (chapter:219 Gohan's Pain) when Cell comes back after self-destructing he states
"...Now I'm complete without #18. And I've powered up-like son Gohan. It must have been my saiyan cells-a boost in power after a brush with death."
and his aura is identical to gohan's SSJ2 aura, not just similar, but identical. --Solostryker 11:07 March 10, 2007 (est)
In the article it says: "The legend states that every one thousand years in the Dragon Ball universe (three thousand years in the English dubbed version) a Super Saiyan is born, his true power awakened through rage. This Saiyan, called a Super Saiyan, would be recognized as the strongest being in the Universe, wielding what was considered limitless power.". In the English dub episode 53 Vegeta talks about the legend of the Super Saiyan saying: "After 3 millenniums its finally happened, a new super saiyan has emerged.". He says nothing about every 3000 years this happens, only that it finally has happened again, in another part he says: After 3000 years another super saiyan has emerged. But the last super saiyan could only maintain his status in the tranformed state."(transformed state meaning Ozaru). The last Super Saiyan's power was not the result of rage, rather the result of transformation which multiplies the Saiyans power level 10 fold. He did say however: "One day his rage erupted and he was destroyed by his own power." but not that he obtained his Super Saiyan status through rage. This description of a Super Saiyan only fits Broly as having unlimited power and all the other descriptions of the legendary Super Saiyan. Lucasthalefty 17:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
oh an a quick on the side irrelevant question, do video games count as Cannon? Maybe only certain ones? Get back to me on that because it could be a whole new field to base some facts on.
Lucasthalefty
17:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Well the info you are providing is that of when Funimation and Pioneer combined dubbed DBZ episodes. We on the project page WP:DBZ are not trying to use the dubbed version of DBZ since it has a lot of faults in the dubbing. Especially the combined efforts of Funimation and Pioneer. Most of the info on the page is from the manga version of DB, thats why it says three thousand years in the English dubbed version after the original legend statement begins. The actual legend is from the manga version of DBZ. As for the video games we really can't use them for facts as they have some faults in them too. Heat P 18:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Plus Vegeta heard about the legendary super saiyan but didn't know what it looked like before goku went super saiyan.
Give me some good points here and don't start any useless personal attack battles, shouldn't Golden Oozarus be part of this article? To keep it brief I'm pretty sure that a Golden Oozaru is the same thing as a Super Saiyan Oozaru, a Super Saiyan Oozaru was mentioned in episode 53 talking about the last Super Saiyan who arose 3000 years ago. Even if the idea was taken farther in GT, the Golden Oozaru was originally mentioned in DBZ and should be listed as having existed. Also there's always a lot of debate about cannon and GT but I see that Super Saiyan 4 is in the article so why not have the Golden Oozaru too, especially since it was talked about in DBZ. Lucasthalefty 17:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually you are right that the Golden Oozaru is the Super Saiyan version of the Oozaru form but since it is an Oozaru their really is no need to add it to the Super Saiyan page since it is on the Oozaru page. Having it on two pages explaining the same is really irrelevant. As so you have to read the manga version of that or at less see the japanese version of that episode to get the real explanation. Also the Golden Oozaru is really exclusive to the anime as in the manga it never shows the Golden Oozaru in Vegeta's explanation. Heat P 18:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe a link to the Golden Oozaru section of the Oozaru page should be added in with the others being that it dose fall under the category of Super Saiyan and this would also keep the information from being on 2 pages, what are your thoughts. Lucasthalefty 03:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you think Gogeta is SSJ or SSJ2? I believe he's a SSJ2 because he has lightning surrounding him, which is present only in forms above SSJ. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 23:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC) 71.183.44.106 ( talk) 23:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
Does each super saiyan level increase a saiyans power a certain amount? Transforming into a oozaru (giant monkey) increases a saiyan's power level by 10 (for example, power level 18,000 Vegeta is 180,000 in oozaru). I heard that there is also an annual power increase when becoming a super saiyan. Wasn't it around 100 times a saiyan's normal power for super saiyan 1? Zachorious 02:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The list of super saiyans lists onio, from NMZ as a super saiyan. Since Z went SSJ(somehow) in the manga, should he be listed as one too? On top of that, should he be considered SSJ2, since the manga identified SSJ2 with the lightning in the aura ANYTIME somone went SSJ2, and Z has that when he powers up.
Apparently you are mistaking Super Neko Majin as a Super Saiyan. That is a big false. Neko Majin is the name of the race of Cat Genies that Z belongs to as the Neko Majin article states. In one of your edits, you say that Akira Toriyama states that Z says he is a Super Neko Majin. That is right, Z is a Neko Majin not a Saiyan and he has a Super Saiyan-like transformation called, get this Super Neko Majin. Neko Majin is not Z's name it is his race like Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans. So no Z is not a Super Saiyan he is a Super Neko Majin. He is not Super Saiyan Z. He is Super Neko Majin Z. Heat P 04:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
It was still written by Akira Toriyama as him going SSJ...So he went SSJ.
Sorry no. It is written Super Neko Majin. Also if A. Toriyama does state that Z did become a Super Saiyan out right and not say he looks like one or intimates, one can you give us the reference, meaning can you give us the manga number, what page and what the exact words are? Because it seems you are just going off what the Wikipedia article says which can be edited as I already done and fixed it. Not the actual manga. See there are many things in Toriyama works or Toei Studios that look, act and may feel the same. Like Cell, He has Saiyan DNA in him and has Saiyan abilities and his aura perfectly mimics Super Saiyan aura and powers. However do to him being a organic cybernetic being mixed with all types of other DNA he can not be call a Super Saiyan and we have Bojack and his henchman Gokua. Both have what looks like a Super Saiyan-like power up that changes their hair color, boast their power, strength and speed but since they are not of the Saiyan race they are not Super Saiyan. Same goes for Z. He may have a SSJ like transformation but he is not a Sayian and it is call Super Neko Majin. So again Z is not a Super Saiyan. Heat P 04:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Just because Goku transformed into a SSJ2 and Z shows him he has a SSJ-like transformation call by Z himself Super Neko Majin. Again it is a SSJ like transformation. I am looking at the page. Neko Majin Z#5 Page 187 the last two panels. Again Z is not a Saiyan he is a Neko Majin. again he is not a Super Saiyan, he is a Super Neko Majin. Toriyama did not make him a SSJ he only gave Z that SSJ like ability as a spoof off of Goku's SSJ2 form to fight him. You are trying to put false info on this page because of you beliefs and not facts. Only one fact that Z has a SSJ like transformation but you keep overlooking bigger facts. Heat P 05:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
For the record, Goku went SSJ, not SSJ2. Akira Toriyama has drawn Goku with two very distinct hairstyles between SSJ and SSJ2. Look at his hair again, clearly SSJ. Z himself says Goku is only in SSJ. Yes, there is electricity. Onio has electicity too and states he is only in SSJ. When Vegeta goes SSJ, he has electricity and Onio warns him that SSJ won't work. He clearly says NOTHING about SSJ2. And yes, Z isn't a Super Saiyan. He somehow managed to mimic the SSJ transformation and became a Super Neko Majin. Keep in mind Mr. Toriyama himself stated Vegetto was only SSJ and not SSJ2 and yet Vegetto had electricity. 12.210.212.75 06:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the Edit war practically stopped, all you frequent Dragon Ball editors are to thank for that (and a select few IP people). That's a good thing, perhaps we can keep it that way. Good job guys. -- Majinvegeta 19:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to discuss this first because in the first Broly movie, it stated that Planet Vegeta was destroyed the day Goku was sent to Earth, however in the manga and anime, it was destroyed three years before Raditz's arrival on Earth (Which would make goku in his 20s). I think we should use the anime/manga date, but I just wanted to discuss first. -- Majinvegeta 02:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
As everyone should know by now, there are quite a few people that come onto wiki and edit the article saying he became one. I put the part about him in there to put an end to the edits, without disturbing the truth of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 ( talk) 21:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
And on the wierd hair color, it was that color because of his controller (which glowed green). After it broke, his hair took on a more "normal" tone. Onikage725 14:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
We need to keep in mind that the giji form only exists as a seperate transformation in the 4th movie. That is the only confirmed instance of it. Broli in the flashback was SSJ because nothing is ever said about them re-using the giji SSJ form and he is only referred to as SSJ in movie 8. "Giji" SSJ was a retcon- Toei said Goku was SSJ in movie 4, but the movie was made before the end of the Freeza fight and they didn't have the coloring right. So the Daizenshuu retconned it by describing it as a pseudo-SSJ state that was incomplete and unstable. It is *never* mentioned again. One could argue that some characters (like Gohan and Future Trunks) hit something similar while on trying to power up into SSJ when they were on the verge, but it is never maintained as a seperate form. Onikage725 22:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Quick question about Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan stage...
In Dragonball Z episode 230 "Super Saiyan 3?!" where Goku goes SSJ3 for the first time, he demonstrates how he goes from regular state to SSJ1, SSJ2, and then finally SSJ3 to Babidi and Majin Buu. When he does this, he mentions to Babidi and Majin Buu that an ascended SSJ is also known as SSJ2. If this is correct, doesnt that make the reference to Super Saiyan 2nd grade/Ascended Super Saiyan on this page incorrect? I was always under the impression that what Goku says in this episode makes more sense; an "Ascended Super Saiyan" assumes by definition that one has moved past the Super Saiyan (SSJ1) state and into SSJ2. Make sense? Thoughts??
The difference between a SSJ1 and SSJ2 from what I can see in the tv anime is that the SSJ2 has small static lightning bolts that pulse up and down the character's body. When in the SSJ1 state, these bolts arent visible or evident. Other than that, the appearances seem remarkably similar...
If this is correct, than cant we add Vegeta and Future Trunks to the list of characters in DBZ that reached SSJ2?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.132.111.26 ( talk) 03:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
To be perfectly clear, USSJ was a fan term that. Ascended is a FUNimation term. Ultra is another FUNi term that borrows from the fandom. In the original dialogue, Goku refers to them as "transformations of the first stage." Vegeta and Trunks refer to them as "Stage 2/3 (respectively) of Super Saiyan." The manga also frequently refers to SSJ2 as having gone beyond (I suppose one could say ascended past) Super Saiyan. Onikage725 14:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)