![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have two concerns about this page:
If there are no objections I will move the page to Sundiata Keita on June 1.
- JCarriker 08:50, Jun 22, 2004 (UTC)
I concur. please move it. thnx Scott Free 14:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
-The obscene reference to oral sex is not only innapropriate, but incorrect. this bit should be deleted, along with the celebrity reference joke. this is not the place for this kind of garbage.
The first paragraph gives the dates c. 1217 to c. 1255; the birth category is given as 1190; is there a source for this birthdate? is the 1217 date a ruling date?; not my area, but would like to align the birth and death dates with their proper categories-- FeanorStar7 11:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
"Although Western historians have traditionally given preference to written records, oral traditions including the epic of Sundiata have recently gained recognition as important demonstrations of Africa’s rich cultural heritage and as legitimate literary constructions" Eh? What would an illegitimate literary construction be? If this means that the epic's cultural / literary value was formerly neglected but is now recognised, then great, but it doesn't make its historical value any greater. If, on the other hand, it means that greater historical value is now recognised in it than previously, then that must be for evidence-based reasons which have nothing to do with its literary value, and we should specify what that evidence is. Literary and historical value are separate issues. At the moment, it sounds as if the article is saying "it used to be thought inaccurate but then we realised it was a good poem". It's a total non sequitur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.174.89 ( talk) 16:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm studying this in school, so I can make a better section for the Epic of Sundiata. Do you think I should go ahead?-- Editpower100 ( talk) 04:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
"'mr philipienSundiata Keita"
"was the founder of the Tony Stuert"
What the header says. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.171.114 ( talk) 23:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
There is no evidence in the original epos that he was a muslim other than what was later added, a practice which scholars like G. Wesley Johnson among others describe as "Islamic legitimacy". Some of his successors were Muslims though laxed Muslims among some of them. But there is nothing in the original source that states he was a muslim. In deed the Mali Empire itself was founded on the tenets of Traditional African religion. No matter who is trying to rewrite history, no matter how many fake genealogies were later added and his line of descend traced to a muslim figure called Lawalo or Bilali, a supposed friend or disciple of Muhammad. Bilali was of course the same Bilal al-Habashi (the former Ethiopian slave and disciple of Mohammed according to the Quran) who had a son called Lowalo who according to these additions was the ancestor of the Keitas. Not even the nonsensical point of Al-Bakri (who has been debunked on several important facts) regarding a king of "Malal" converting to Islam and citing prayers from the quran in order to bring rain hold any substance to it. It is merely fantasy just like him and many of his successors' account have been proved to be nothing more than fantasy and wishful thinking in order to paint Islam in West Africa in a positive light among the "Black pagans" (see: J. D. Fage, Roland Anthony Oliver, The Cambridge History of Africa: From c. 1050 to c. 1600, pp 389-90, Cambridge University Press, 1977, ISBN 0521209811; H. T. Norris (1971). New Evidence on the Life of ‘Abdullāh B. Yāsīn and the Origins of the Almoravid Movement. The Journal of African History, 12 , pp 255-268 doi:10.1017/S0021853700010665) (Cambridge Journals, Cambridge University Press); Ronald A. Messier. "The Almoravids and the meaning of jihad"). I am "Africanist" and interested in sifting the facts from the fiction especially "Islamic legitimacy" which is the biggest problem when it comes to writing the account of historical figures of West Africa where Islam is now the dominant religion e.g. Mali and Senegal. Another example is the epic of Ndiadiane Ndiaye of Jolof which the Wolofs later added to again "Islamic legitimacy" and contradicted the earliest recorded epic by Joseph-Alexandre Le Brasseur and the Serer sources of Sine whom must of the original sources regarding Ndiadiane came from (See: Boulègue's reprint of Brasseur: Boulègue, Jean. Le Grand Jolof, (XVIIIe - XVIe Siècle). (Paris, Edition Façades), Karthala (1987),pp 25-26; Research in African literatures, Volume 37. University of Texas at Austin. African and Afro-American Studies and Research Center, University of Texas at Austin, p 8. African and Afro-American Studies and Research Center, University of Texas (at Austin) (2006)).
The original oral performances about Sundiata Keita is full of useful information about the man. Any later additions that attempts to change his belief system from one to another is nothing more than fiction. Further, why isn't there any inline citation to this rather important and notable article? I'll go through the article again and provide inline citations. Any fiction will be deleted. Tamsier ( talk) 13:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
For the purpose of transparency , the obvious parallels between the Epic of Sundiata and The Lion King (as well as its franchises such as The Lion King (musical), etc.) has been a contentious point. I came upon a reference in the external link section before I started editing the Sundiata article, titled:
I followed the link which led me here [1] (an abstract of the article), then to the article itself [2]. I have submitted a query to Wikipedia Reliable Sources Notice Board, the diff can be found here [3]. I wanted to use it in the Legacy section of Sundiata Keita's article. Having gone through the Lion King's article and talk page, I found it surprising that there was no mention of Sundiata's name (unless I missed it). I have raised the issue on that article's page. The discussion can be found here Sundiata Keita - The Lion King (Controversy).
Tamsier ( talk) 20:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
I have gone through this important and notable article from top to bottom and tried as much as I can to improve it. Before [4] and after [5]. Some of you speak the Queen's English better than I do so please help correct any grammatical errors. On a related note, please verify the existence of links before interlinking. The Sassouma Bereté and Dankaran Touman articles were both redirected to Sundiata Keita by an editor in 2009. I have no idea why they did that. I only found out when trying to find links for the Sundiata Keita article. I was working on. I've removed the redirection tags on both articles and created stub articles for them. I don't know how many articles relating to Imperial Mali have suffered the same faith since 2009. The one's I've doubled checked seems fine, but there are too many articles relating to Imperial Mali, so please confirm before interlinking. Tamsier ( talk) 21:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Sundiata Keita. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:55, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Hey y'all,
This article seems pretty disorganized to me. I would like to reorganize it so that it reads more like a normal article for a famous person and less like a legendary character, AKA makes biographical information clear and chronological. There are also various topics that should have their own section, like Sundiata's legacy, a discussion of sources, a discussion of what about his life is controversial, spelling, etc. I welcome any and all feedback or ideas before I start digging into this. - Catjacket ( talk) 14:57, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Epic of Sundiata which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 02:05, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
Isn't Sundiata Keita also known by this name, or is this a recent name given to him? I ask this because it's not with his other nicknames, "Sundiata Keita (Mandinka, Malinke: [sʊndʒæta keɪta]; c. 1217 – c. 1255[9]) (also known as Manding Diara, Lion of Mali, Sogolon Djata, son of Sogolon, Nare Maghan and Sogo Sogo Simbon Salaba)" 158.121.180.36 ( talk) 13:28, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
"Lion of Mali" is a translation of "Manding Diara", "Sogolon Djata" and "Nare Maghan Djata" are referring to Sunjata by a matronymic and patronymic respectively ("Jata, son of Sogolon" and "Jata, son of Nare Maghan"), and "sogo sogo simbon salaba" is an expression of praise that doesn't really translate. The passage does not explicitly indicate that any of these names are actual alternate names Sunjata is known by. Furthermore, Niane's version is not an academic work; it is a literary adaptation of a primary source made for a general audience. Ornithopsis ( talk) 15:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)I am going to talk of Sundiata, Manding Diara, Lion of Mali, Sogolon Djata, son of Sogolon, Nare Maghan Djata, son of Nare Maghan, Sogo Sogo Simbon Salaba, hero of many names.
What basis is there to remove the illustration? Plenty of historical articles are illustrated with speculative portraits made centuries after the person's death and with wild historical inaccuracies. When lacking a better alternative why not use the best option available?-- Plank ( talk) 16:53, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have two concerns about this page:
If there are no objections I will move the page to Sundiata Keita on June 1.
- JCarriker 08:50, Jun 22, 2004 (UTC)
I concur. please move it. thnx Scott Free 14:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
-The obscene reference to oral sex is not only innapropriate, but incorrect. this bit should be deleted, along with the celebrity reference joke. this is not the place for this kind of garbage.
The first paragraph gives the dates c. 1217 to c. 1255; the birth category is given as 1190; is there a source for this birthdate? is the 1217 date a ruling date?; not my area, but would like to align the birth and death dates with their proper categories-- FeanorStar7 11:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
"Although Western historians have traditionally given preference to written records, oral traditions including the epic of Sundiata have recently gained recognition as important demonstrations of Africa’s rich cultural heritage and as legitimate literary constructions" Eh? What would an illegitimate literary construction be? If this means that the epic's cultural / literary value was formerly neglected but is now recognised, then great, but it doesn't make its historical value any greater. If, on the other hand, it means that greater historical value is now recognised in it than previously, then that must be for evidence-based reasons which have nothing to do with its literary value, and we should specify what that evidence is. Literary and historical value are separate issues. At the moment, it sounds as if the article is saying "it used to be thought inaccurate but then we realised it was a good poem". It's a total non sequitur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.174.89 ( talk) 16:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm studying this in school, so I can make a better section for the Epic of Sundiata. Do you think I should go ahead?-- Editpower100 ( talk) 04:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
"'mr philipienSundiata Keita"
"was the founder of the Tony Stuert"
What the header says. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.171.114 ( talk) 23:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
There is no evidence in the original epos that he was a muslim other than what was later added, a practice which scholars like G. Wesley Johnson among others describe as "Islamic legitimacy". Some of his successors were Muslims though laxed Muslims among some of them. But there is nothing in the original source that states he was a muslim. In deed the Mali Empire itself was founded on the tenets of Traditional African religion. No matter who is trying to rewrite history, no matter how many fake genealogies were later added and his line of descend traced to a muslim figure called Lawalo or Bilali, a supposed friend or disciple of Muhammad. Bilali was of course the same Bilal al-Habashi (the former Ethiopian slave and disciple of Mohammed according to the Quran) who had a son called Lowalo who according to these additions was the ancestor of the Keitas. Not even the nonsensical point of Al-Bakri (who has been debunked on several important facts) regarding a king of "Malal" converting to Islam and citing prayers from the quran in order to bring rain hold any substance to it. It is merely fantasy just like him and many of his successors' account have been proved to be nothing more than fantasy and wishful thinking in order to paint Islam in West Africa in a positive light among the "Black pagans" (see: J. D. Fage, Roland Anthony Oliver, The Cambridge History of Africa: From c. 1050 to c. 1600, pp 389-90, Cambridge University Press, 1977, ISBN 0521209811; H. T. Norris (1971). New Evidence on the Life of ‘Abdullāh B. Yāsīn and the Origins of the Almoravid Movement. The Journal of African History, 12 , pp 255-268 doi:10.1017/S0021853700010665) (Cambridge Journals, Cambridge University Press); Ronald A. Messier. "The Almoravids and the meaning of jihad"). I am "Africanist" and interested in sifting the facts from the fiction especially "Islamic legitimacy" which is the biggest problem when it comes to writing the account of historical figures of West Africa where Islam is now the dominant religion e.g. Mali and Senegal. Another example is the epic of Ndiadiane Ndiaye of Jolof which the Wolofs later added to again "Islamic legitimacy" and contradicted the earliest recorded epic by Joseph-Alexandre Le Brasseur and the Serer sources of Sine whom must of the original sources regarding Ndiadiane came from (See: Boulègue's reprint of Brasseur: Boulègue, Jean. Le Grand Jolof, (XVIIIe - XVIe Siècle). (Paris, Edition Façades), Karthala (1987),pp 25-26; Research in African literatures, Volume 37. University of Texas at Austin. African and Afro-American Studies and Research Center, University of Texas at Austin, p 8. African and Afro-American Studies and Research Center, University of Texas (at Austin) (2006)).
The original oral performances about Sundiata Keita is full of useful information about the man. Any later additions that attempts to change his belief system from one to another is nothing more than fiction. Further, why isn't there any inline citation to this rather important and notable article? I'll go through the article again and provide inline citations. Any fiction will be deleted. Tamsier ( talk) 13:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
For the purpose of transparency , the obvious parallels between the Epic of Sundiata and The Lion King (as well as its franchises such as The Lion King (musical), etc.) has been a contentious point. I came upon a reference in the external link section before I started editing the Sundiata article, titled:
I followed the link which led me here [1] (an abstract of the article), then to the article itself [2]. I have submitted a query to Wikipedia Reliable Sources Notice Board, the diff can be found here [3]. I wanted to use it in the Legacy section of Sundiata Keita's article. Having gone through the Lion King's article and talk page, I found it surprising that there was no mention of Sundiata's name (unless I missed it). I have raised the issue on that article's page. The discussion can be found here Sundiata Keita - The Lion King (Controversy).
Tamsier ( talk) 20:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
I have gone through this important and notable article from top to bottom and tried as much as I can to improve it. Before [4] and after [5]. Some of you speak the Queen's English better than I do so please help correct any grammatical errors. On a related note, please verify the existence of links before interlinking. The Sassouma Bereté and Dankaran Touman articles were both redirected to Sundiata Keita by an editor in 2009. I have no idea why they did that. I only found out when trying to find links for the Sundiata Keita article. I was working on. I've removed the redirection tags on both articles and created stub articles for them. I don't know how many articles relating to Imperial Mali have suffered the same faith since 2009. The one's I've doubled checked seems fine, but there are too many articles relating to Imperial Mali, so please confirm before interlinking. Tamsier ( talk) 21:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Sundiata Keita. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:55, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Hey y'all,
This article seems pretty disorganized to me. I would like to reorganize it so that it reads more like a normal article for a famous person and less like a legendary character, AKA makes biographical information clear and chronological. There are also various topics that should have their own section, like Sundiata's legacy, a discussion of sources, a discussion of what about his life is controversial, spelling, etc. I welcome any and all feedback or ideas before I start digging into this. - Catjacket ( talk) 14:57, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Epic of Sundiata which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 02:05, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
Isn't Sundiata Keita also known by this name, or is this a recent name given to him? I ask this because it's not with his other nicknames, "Sundiata Keita (Mandinka, Malinke: [sʊndʒæta keɪta]; c. 1217 – c. 1255[9]) (also known as Manding Diara, Lion of Mali, Sogolon Djata, son of Sogolon, Nare Maghan and Sogo Sogo Simbon Salaba)" 158.121.180.36 ( talk) 13:28, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
"Lion of Mali" is a translation of "Manding Diara", "Sogolon Djata" and "Nare Maghan Djata" are referring to Sunjata by a matronymic and patronymic respectively ("Jata, son of Sogolon" and "Jata, son of Nare Maghan"), and "sogo sogo simbon salaba" is an expression of praise that doesn't really translate. The passage does not explicitly indicate that any of these names are actual alternate names Sunjata is known by. Furthermore, Niane's version is not an academic work; it is a literary adaptation of a primary source made for a general audience. Ornithopsis ( talk) 15:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)I am going to talk of Sundiata, Manding Diara, Lion of Mali, Sogolon Djata, son of Sogolon, Nare Maghan Djata, son of Nare Maghan, Sogo Sogo Simbon Salaba, hero of many names.
What basis is there to remove the illustration? Plenty of historical articles are illustrated with speculative portraits made centuries after the person's death and with wild historical inaccuracies. When lacking a better alternative why not use the best option available?-- Plank ( talk) 16:53, 30 October 2022 (UTC)