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Alright @ Mteiritay:,
at this point I think it is clear that either we talk this out or it devolves into an edit war. If we can't find common ground, we should consider involving mediators, but I hope we're both mature enough to argue reasonably.
About your arguments for deleting my edits: 1. Your argument about the Bayat tribe not being Turkmen does not actually concern my edit, as it was just a side fact I mentioned in the edit log but didn't include in the article in any way. Furthermore, you surely see how questionable it is to use a facebook link to argue against actual sources used in the article, that it doesn't even concern directly. If you want, we can also expand this discussion on the Bayat, as I could also show you facebook links declaring the Bayat Turkmen, but again, this isn't even what this is about, since the ethnicity of the Bayat is not included in the article.
2. The category below is not sourced, so that could very well be the next thing you decide to delete. Also, the categories are not part of the information of an article, they are, well, categories this article is part of. That you are trying to delete information from a stub of two sentences as redundant, is rather ridiculous, as you can hopefully see.
3. South Azerbaijani is the linguistic name of Turkmen, which is, in fact a recognized minority language of Iraq, as acknowledged by the constitution:
Article 4: First: The Arabic language and the Kurdish language are the two official languages of Iraq. The right of Iraqis to educate their children in their mother tongue, such as Turkmen, Syriac, and Armenian shall be guaranteed in government educational institutions in accordance with educational guidelines, or in any other language in private educational institutions.
and
Fourth: The Turkomen language and the Syriac language are two other official languages in the administrative units in which they constitute density of population. [1]
I hope you agree that this clears things up. Your argument, that the name would be the same either way of course doesn't hold any water, as evidently, G is a different letter than K.
One additional point: Please acknowledge, that you can not simply continue removing sourced content because you dislike it for whatever reason. Not only is this against Wikipedia rules, it also is very respectless against the effort people put into filling Wikipedia with information. I hope we can find agreement here.
Sincerely-- Ermanarich ( talk) 13:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Back to square one, literally: No, not 'that' source. 4 sources. By respected, often used sources like France24 and Al Arabiya. Meanwhile all you've got for your claim is a literal facebook video. You know, I could come along with these as well, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable to use.
Your point gets even more ridiculous, as the whole question about the ethnicity of the Bayat is, as of now, not part of the content you fervently keep deleting. As for the name, you have - again - not answered the arguments I've brought up before. As Swat Jester seems to have abandoned us, I shall search for another mediator.-- Ermanarich ( talk) 01:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Alright, maybe it helps if we split up the discussion in the different sections where we disagree, so we can find a better ground for each to agree on (1. The name and spellings 2. The question of Turkmens in Sulaiman Bek and 3. The question of the ethnicity of the Bayat tribe):
1. That the spelling Sulayman Beg is also widespread, has already been established by sources and it makes sense to add, as it's a considerable difference to the spelling with K. As I already argued, dialect spellings are included in Wikipedia articles, such as in the one of the article of Hamburg. If we also add the Turkmen spelling here, I would say, depends on what agreement we can reach on the second point of our discussion.
2. There is no Sulaiman Bek district, only a subdistrict, which also is the lowest administrative division of Iraq, meaning that there is no administrative difference between Sulaiman Bek town and subdistrict. Also, the Al Arabiya article talks about Sulaiman Bek explicitly, not the subdistrict.
3. Now, to the Bayat tribe. It is rather surprising that you link the Arabic Wikipedia page and say "with sources", when not only are there aren't any sources cited, but also a disclaimer at the top of the article notifying the reader about that. The other sources you added say that the Bayat tribe is part of the Tayy confederation/qabilah, but don't speak about the ethnicity. In fact, it is a widespread phenomenon of tribes of other ethnicities joining Arabic tribal confederacies over time. One example would be the Bakri tribe from Raqqah, which incidentally is also part of the Tayy confederacy but is a Kurdish tribe. Thus, your sources specify the tribal affiliation of the Bayat, but not their ethnicity.
Now, I would like to ask you again that we look at and decide about these issues separately, because that will hopefully make it easier to find consensus.-- Ermanarich ( talk) 16:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Should the alternative spelling Sulayman Beg and the mention of the presence of a Turkmen minority be included in the article?-- Ermanarich ( talk) 12:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
(invited by the bot) On the first question, we're here to inform. If Sulayman Beg is widely used as a name for the same town, we should inform the readers of that. If you can find a suitable sources that refers to both spellings and that the refer to the same village that would be ideal. North8000 ( talk) 17:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
(Invited by the bot) Regarding inclusion of mention of the Turkmen minority, for the sake of incoming participants, Ermanarich could you say exactly what you want to include and pick a source or two that you think most clearly and credibly says / supports that, and provide the details so that others may look? North8000 ( talk) 18:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
Alright @ Mteiritay:,
at this point I think it is clear that either we talk this out or it devolves into an edit war. If we can't find common ground, we should consider involving mediators, but I hope we're both mature enough to argue reasonably.
About your arguments for deleting my edits: 1. Your argument about the Bayat tribe not being Turkmen does not actually concern my edit, as it was just a side fact I mentioned in the edit log but didn't include in the article in any way. Furthermore, you surely see how questionable it is to use a facebook link to argue against actual sources used in the article, that it doesn't even concern directly. If you want, we can also expand this discussion on the Bayat, as I could also show you facebook links declaring the Bayat Turkmen, but again, this isn't even what this is about, since the ethnicity of the Bayat is not included in the article.
2. The category below is not sourced, so that could very well be the next thing you decide to delete. Also, the categories are not part of the information of an article, they are, well, categories this article is part of. That you are trying to delete information from a stub of two sentences as redundant, is rather ridiculous, as you can hopefully see.
3. South Azerbaijani is the linguistic name of Turkmen, which is, in fact a recognized minority language of Iraq, as acknowledged by the constitution:
Article 4: First: The Arabic language and the Kurdish language are the two official languages of Iraq. The right of Iraqis to educate their children in their mother tongue, such as Turkmen, Syriac, and Armenian shall be guaranteed in government educational institutions in accordance with educational guidelines, or in any other language in private educational institutions.
and
Fourth: The Turkomen language and the Syriac language are two other official languages in the administrative units in which they constitute density of population. [1]
I hope you agree that this clears things up. Your argument, that the name would be the same either way of course doesn't hold any water, as evidently, G is a different letter than K.
One additional point: Please acknowledge, that you can not simply continue removing sourced content because you dislike it for whatever reason. Not only is this against Wikipedia rules, it also is very respectless against the effort people put into filling Wikipedia with information. I hope we can find agreement here.
Sincerely-- Ermanarich ( talk) 13:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Back to square one, literally: No, not 'that' source. 4 sources. By respected, often used sources like France24 and Al Arabiya. Meanwhile all you've got for your claim is a literal facebook video. You know, I could come along with these as well, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable to use.
Your point gets even more ridiculous, as the whole question about the ethnicity of the Bayat is, as of now, not part of the content you fervently keep deleting. As for the name, you have - again - not answered the arguments I've brought up before. As Swat Jester seems to have abandoned us, I shall search for another mediator.-- Ermanarich ( talk) 01:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Alright, maybe it helps if we split up the discussion in the different sections where we disagree, so we can find a better ground for each to agree on (1. The name and spellings 2. The question of Turkmens in Sulaiman Bek and 3. The question of the ethnicity of the Bayat tribe):
1. That the spelling Sulayman Beg is also widespread, has already been established by sources and it makes sense to add, as it's a considerable difference to the spelling with K. As I already argued, dialect spellings are included in Wikipedia articles, such as in the one of the article of Hamburg. If we also add the Turkmen spelling here, I would say, depends on what agreement we can reach on the second point of our discussion.
2. There is no Sulaiman Bek district, only a subdistrict, which also is the lowest administrative division of Iraq, meaning that there is no administrative difference between Sulaiman Bek town and subdistrict. Also, the Al Arabiya article talks about Sulaiman Bek explicitly, not the subdistrict.
3. Now, to the Bayat tribe. It is rather surprising that you link the Arabic Wikipedia page and say "with sources", when not only are there aren't any sources cited, but also a disclaimer at the top of the article notifying the reader about that. The other sources you added say that the Bayat tribe is part of the Tayy confederation/qabilah, but don't speak about the ethnicity. In fact, it is a widespread phenomenon of tribes of other ethnicities joining Arabic tribal confederacies over time. One example would be the Bakri tribe from Raqqah, which incidentally is also part of the Tayy confederacy but is a Kurdish tribe. Thus, your sources specify the tribal affiliation of the Bayat, but not their ethnicity.
Now, I would like to ask you again that we look at and decide about these issues separately, because that will hopefully make it easier to find consensus.-- Ermanarich ( talk) 16:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Should the alternative spelling Sulayman Beg and the mention of the presence of a Turkmen minority be included in the article?-- Ermanarich ( talk) 12:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
(invited by the bot) On the first question, we're here to inform. If Sulayman Beg is widely used as a name for the same town, we should inform the readers of that. If you can find a suitable sources that refers to both spellings and that the refer to the same village that would be ideal. North8000 ( talk) 17:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
(Invited by the bot) Regarding inclusion of mention of the Turkmen minority, for the sake of incoming participants, Ermanarich could you say exactly what you want to include and pick a source or two that you think most clearly and credibly says / supports that, and provide the details so that others may look? North8000 ( talk) 18:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
References