This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sudeten Germans article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I vote no. Sudeten Germans are a distinct group of people. Other ethnic German groups have article such as Baltic Germans. Germans in Czechoslovakia (1918–1938) is a tortured article and is the one that should go. It would be inconsistent to lose this article with ones like Carpathian Germans, etc. around. -- Hutcher ( talk) 03:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
The introduction "the most intractable ......" is slanderous and should definitely be removed. The Norwegian mass killer Breivik took such nationalist expressions from Wikipedia for his manifesto to underline his demand for Europe`s ethnic cleansing of Muslims. He cited Wiipedia as a support for his ideas. The German admins are starting to delete nationalist opinions.-- 92.228.177.64 ( talk) 16:03, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
This article needs a section on history of Sudeten Germans. You know, first records noting their presence, notable historical events, leaders etc. Generally pre-nationalism history. Otherwise it's a worthless article since everything it contains can be learned from articles about WW2 or about Czech and Slovakia. In its current shape it might as well be deleted. It needs information on culture, language etc. as articles on ethnic groups usually do. And notable Sudeten Germans sections should exist as well.
Also, how are factories important enough to be written about in the, uh, 2 sentence of the lead? This information belongs in the Sudentenland article, factories are not people, this is an article about people.
I'd do all this but I know close to nothing about this, I tried to found out and here I am on wikipedia, with no worthwhile information to be found.--
109.196.118.133 (
talk)
10:04, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
The Czech Kingdom of Bohemia and Magraviate of Moravia were historical lands, they existed with strong kings of House of Přemyslid.
German immigrants have known very well where they settled from the very beginning.
They arrived to the Czech Lands in every century, including many since 1850. These foreigners rarely accepted the Czech language. In Czech view they were immigrants and colonist.
--
Posp68 (
talk)
23:03, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
German Bohemians used Bavarian, Franconian, Thuringian, Lusatian and Silesian Dialects, the same dialects used in neighbouring German and Austrian regions. They did not only use Bavarian Dialects and Standard German (please excuse my poor English...).-- 87.150.92.13 ( talk) 06:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Lower Silesian is confirmed in the Czech lands
[1], so I’ll add it.
RGloucester (
talk)
14:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Here you can find a map of the formerly used German dialects in the Czech lands: [2] -- 87.150.92.13 ( talk) 16:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Is this correct? My German is a bit bad. RGloucester ( talk) 17:38, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I came to this page after seeing 2 other moves which are not supported by Google Books usage.
Rather dubious move. In ictu oculi ( talk) 17:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
It isn’t really "less precise". Bohemia, and Bohemian, in English, have always been understood include Moravia and all the crown lands of the Kingdom. Moravia is "known" but it was part of "Bohemia", as "Bohemia proper" was also part of "Bohemia the state". I suppose you can put it at "German Bohemians and Moravians", though it is not the most natural title of the article. They were referred to as "German Bohemians" because they were ethnic German residents of the Bohemian state (regardless of their residence in Moravia). These Google books searches are not usefull in a situation with so many nuances. For all you know, searching for German Moravian is getting results on the history of German Moravian stars. If I must I can get a dictionary/atlas/reference of Central Europe from the library that I was using before that states that they are clearly known as Bohemians ( the book is from 1910, so very current with the climax of Germans in Bohemia). Even if they are known as Moravians, that is just an additional category. Their citizenship was of Bohemia.
Furthermore, I think there is no reason why we can’t simply work with this article as it is. I do not think we need to split the article. Leave it as this title, and expand it. That seems simple enough to me. I already translated the meat history of German Bohemians prior to World War II from the German WP. So that’s taken care of. The rest can certainly be used to expand this article. The reason the German WP is split into two articles is to avoid offending people (delicate past to tread on, of course). We have no such scruples, apparently. RGloucester ( talk) 15:25, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Excellent Facebook Böhmen, Mähren, Schlesien organized by Jewish German Bohemians. They do not want to be called Sudeten Germans as this does not cover the 800 years of German culture in Bohemia.-- 92.229.142.226 ( talk) 19:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Are there any records as to which towns in Germany were settled by Sudetens from which Czech villages? I had distant relatives in the villages of Velky Rybnik, formerly Grossenteich, and Hroznetin, formerly Lichdenstadt. I have no idea whether any survived and where specifically they ended up. 108.160.46.137 ( talk) 19:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC) 3/22/2013
Ahnenforschung (looking for your ancestors) might help you.-- 92.229.242.145 ( talk) 16:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)-- 92.229.242.145 ( talk) 16:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
The reference to the phrase "German population in the area was highly nationalistic and looked down on Czechs." is a fake. You can find the book here: https://books.google.de/books?id=O3Bfhfghi50C&pg=PA79&hl=de&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false So, I deleted it.-- Proeliator ( talk) 13:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Sudeten Germans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:48, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:05, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
"In theory, with the accession of the Czech Republic into the European Union, refugee Sudeten Germans and their descendants (or for that matter, also Germans with no previous link to the Bohemian lands) could have moved back there without needing the Czech government's permission – but in practice such a move did not materialize in any significant numbers, as they could not reclaim property and many were well established in Germany."
This is a sentence extracted from the article. Although it reads as meant well-intended, no source is given for the 2 arguments presented as to why those millions of people didn't return to their homeland. While they sound reasonable at face value, there isn't any more meat to that claim as there would be to suggest any other argument. You could say it plays a role that there's still widespread genocide apologia within Czechia that denies those people's place of origin or excuses the violence that was conducted - but there would need to be some sourcing for any of these claims to back them up. 2A02:1210:1CA7:D700:2C00:3572:605B:2892 ( talk) 18:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sudeten Germans article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I vote no. Sudeten Germans are a distinct group of people. Other ethnic German groups have article such as Baltic Germans. Germans in Czechoslovakia (1918–1938) is a tortured article and is the one that should go. It would be inconsistent to lose this article with ones like Carpathian Germans, etc. around. -- Hutcher ( talk) 03:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
The introduction "the most intractable ......" is slanderous and should definitely be removed. The Norwegian mass killer Breivik took such nationalist expressions from Wikipedia for his manifesto to underline his demand for Europe`s ethnic cleansing of Muslims. He cited Wiipedia as a support for his ideas. The German admins are starting to delete nationalist opinions.-- 92.228.177.64 ( talk) 16:03, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
This article needs a section on history of Sudeten Germans. You know, first records noting their presence, notable historical events, leaders etc. Generally pre-nationalism history. Otherwise it's a worthless article since everything it contains can be learned from articles about WW2 or about Czech and Slovakia. In its current shape it might as well be deleted. It needs information on culture, language etc. as articles on ethnic groups usually do. And notable Sudeten Germans sections should exist as well.
Also, how are factories important enough to be written about in the, uh, 2 sentence of the lead? This information belongs in the Sudentenland article, factories are not people, this is an article about people.
I'd do all this but I know close to nothing about this, I tried to found out and here I am on wikipedia, with no worthwhile information to be found.--
109.196.118.133 (
talk)
10:04, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
The Czech Kingdom of Bohemia and Magraviate of Moravia were historical lands, they existed with strong kings of House of Přemyslid.
German immigrants have known very well where they settled from the very beginning.
They arrived to the Czech Lands in every century, including many since 1850. These foreigners rarely accepted the Czech language. In Czech view they were immigrants and colonist.
--
Posp68 (
talk)
23:03, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
German Bohemians used Bavarian, Franconian, Thuringian, Lusatian and Silesian Dialects, the same dialects used in neighbouring German and Austrian regions. They did not only use Bavarian Dialects and Standard German (please excuse my poor English...).-- 87.150.92.13 ( talk) 06:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Lower Silesian is confirmed in the Czech lands
[1], so I’ll add it.
RGloucester (
talk)
14:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Here you can find a map of the formerly used German dialects in the Czech lands: [2] -- 87.150.92.13 ( talk) 16:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Is this correct? My German is a bit bad. RGloucester ( talk) 17:38, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I came to this page after seeing 2 other moves which are not supported by Google Books usage.
Rather dubious move. In ictu oculi ( talk) 17:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
It isn’t really "less precise". Bohemia, and Bohemian, in English, have always been understood include Moravia and all the crown lands of the Kingdom. Moravia is "known" but it was part of "Bohemia", as "Bohemia proper" was also part of "Bohemia the state". I suppose you can put it at "German Bohemians and Moravians", though it is not the most natural title of the article. They were referred to as "German Bohemians" because they were ethnic German residents of the Bohemian state (regardless of their residence in Moravia). These Google books searches are not usefull in a situation with so many nuances. For all you know, searching for German Moravian is getting results on the history of German Moravian stars. If I must I can get a dictionary/atlas/reference of Central Europe from the library that I was using before that states that they are clearly known as Bohemians ( the book is from 1910, so very current with the climax of Germans in Bohemia). Even if they are known as Moravians, that is just an additional category. Their citizenship was of Bohemia.
Furthermore, I think there is no reason why we can’t simply work with this article as it is. I do not think we need to split the article. Leave it as this title, and expand it. That seems simple enough to me. I already translated the meat history of German Bohemians prior to World War II from the German WP. So that’s taken care of. The rest can certainly be used to expand this article. The reason the German WP is split into two articles is to avoid offending people (delicate past to tread on, of course). We have no such scruples, apparently. RGloucester ( talk) 15:25, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Excellent Facebook Böhmen, Mähren, Schlesien organized by Jewish German Bohemians. They do not want to be called Sudeten Germans as this does not cover the 800 years of German culture in Bohemia.-- 92.229.142.226 ( talk) 19:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Are there any records as to which towns in Germany were settled by Sudetens from which Czech villages? I had distant relatives in the villages of Velky Rybnik, formerly Grossenteich, and Hroznetin, formerly Lichdenstadt. I have no idea whether any survived and where specifically they ended up. 108.160.46.137 ( talk) 19:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC) 3/22/2013
Ahnenforschung (looking for your ancestors) might help you.-- 92.229.242.145 ( talk) 16:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)-- 92.229.242.145 ( talk) 16:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
The reference to the phrase "German population in the area was highly nationalistic and looked down on Czechs." is a fake. You can find the book here: https://books.google.de/books?id=O3Bfhfghi50C&pg=PA79&hl=de&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false So, I deleted it.-- Proeliator ( talk) 13:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Sudeten Germans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:48, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:05, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
"In theory, with the accession of the Czech Republic into the European Union, refugee Sudeten Germans and their descendants (or for that matter, also Germans with no previous link to the Bohemian lands) could have moved back there without needing the Czech government's permission – but in practice such a move did not materialize in any significant numbers, as they could not reclaim property and many were well established in Germany."
This is a sentence extracted from the article. Although it reads as meant well-intended, no source is given for the 2 arguments presented as to why those millions of people didn't return to their homeland. While they sound reasonable at face value, there isn't any more meat to that claim as there would be to suggest any other argument. You could say it plays a role that there's still widespread genocide apologia within Czechia that denies those people's place of origin or excuses the violence that was conducted - but there would need to be some sourcing for any of these claims to back them up. 2A02:1210:1CA7:D700:2C00:3572:605B:2892 ( talk) 18:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)