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Isn't Hugo Grotius associated more with the Governmental theory of the atonement? -- Victoria h 05:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is overly simplistic. It assumes that all Christians hold the substitutionary view of the atonement. The entire Eastern Church (both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) denies this view. Additionally, it is inappropriate to assert that the Epistle to the Romans "explains" the substitutionary atonement without giving any evidence that it even teaches it. Saying the Christ died "for" us is not the same as saying that Christ died "as" us (or "in our place").
Hello, I wanted to provide some record of the less developed doctrine of Substitution found in the Early Church. I hope others will be willing to let it stay, although I would certainly appreciate anyone editing the rather sloppy aspects of the addition. Also, feel free to let me know if I have violated any rules in making the addition as I did. Thanks. Wascott
edit-I have removed the addition for the moment --especially because I need a better way for providing the links.
This article is unclear as to the relation of this theory to the Atonement (Satisfaction view) theory.
The first paragraph was written in non-encyclopedic style and possibly not NPOV, and inappropriate as an introduction. It defined substitutionary atonement as a general principle rather than as a specifically Christian doctrine. But through Google I was unable to find any significant use of the term in any context other than Christian theology. So the correct introduction in my opinion is to state the SA is a Christian theological doctrine. The content that was in the first paragraph might be reuseable later in the body text if rewritten. Mrhsj 00:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
This page needs to distinguish between Penal Substitution and Substitutionary Atonement. The term "Substitutionary Atonement" covers any view of the atonement which includes the idea of Jesus standing as a substitute for part or all of mankind. Such substitution is not necessarily penal (Jesus takes the punishment man deserves) but could also be merely satisfactory (Jesus satisfies the demands of God's honour by suffering obediently - see Atonement (Satisfaction view)).
Since this page describes the specifically penal view of substitutionary atonement, I propose that it should be moved to the Penal substitution page which currently links here, and a shorter article should be written which links to the different forms of substitutionary atonement. 193.63.62.252 07:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
While the research is interesting here, it is original which is against Wiki policy. It is also rather flawed. While it is true that there are elements of punishment in the atonement theories of the Church Fathers, these quotes are taken out of the larger context of their teaching. Augustine did not teach penal substitution, but what is called the "mousetrap" theory which is a version of the ransom theory. Similarly Athanasius focused on the cross overcoming death, not on penal substitution. Taken out of context, these quotes are quite miss leading and historically inaccurate. They ignore the larger teaching and amount to cherry picking. One could argue that there are aspects of punishment found in earlier writings, but it is simply false to claim that penal substitution was taught by any of the church fathers. I move that they be stricken and replaced with a historical account of the development of the doctrine based on verifiable sources. sharktacos 22:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know where I can go to read about not what supposedly took place but how it supposedly works? I don't see anything like that on this page. What I mean is, this page goes through a great deal about what people believe Jesus's death did, but what I'm looking for is, how it is that Jesus's death can cause people to be absolved of thier sins. I don't know if this is the right place to ask this sort of question, but it would be very helpful to my research.
Kronos o 21:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The statement, in the article, that "The doctrine is not accepted by the Eastern Orthodox churches, who normatively teach John Cassian's doctrine of theosis." is not supported by any references and, in fact, it is not correct. The doctrine of substitutionary atonement is both assumed and alluded to, multiple times, in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and is clearly proclaimed, multiple times, in the Bible.
As a secondary observation, the doctrine of theosis did not originate with John Cassian, but can be found in the writings of Athanasius of Alexandria among others, and is derived from statements in the New Testament (e.g. 2 Peter 1:4, 1 John 3:2). Additionally, there is nothing in tbe doctrine of theosis which is contradictory to, or in any way incompatible with, the Orthodox doctrine of substitutionary atonement as taught by St. John Chrysostom, St. Athanasius of Alexandria, St. John of Damascus, and St. Symeon the New Theologian, among many others.
Vizenos ( talk) 16:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
It's not all that clear, but some of the more modern theologians might have deemed the doctrine of substitutionary atonement to be a tad anti-semitic, since there is a strong emphasis on sacrifice and expiation, a vocabulary that eventually found its way into the language of anti-semites, who demanded retribution for the alleged crimes of the Jews. ADM ( talk) 13:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
History2007 made a request on my talk page to move-protect this article. I'm not comfortable doing that without consensus that this is the correct title. Since the article has been moved a few times [1], consensus is unclear. What should the title to the article be?-- Chaser ( talk) 15:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
From what I can tell, Western Christians seem to be in eternal need of "proving" that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as they do by misquoting the Divine Liturgy, the Bible, or the opinions of Orthodox fathers or clerics, the last frequently being interpreted with western definitions, in order to legitimize their own beliefs. On the other hand, Orthodoxy tries to emphasize that both systems are radically different. Yes, there are similarities in doctrine between east and west, they originate from the same first thousand years, but the Orthodox are wisely more cautious. Just because something looks similar doesn't mean it is the same. We use similar words, but these words might have different meanings, some not as literal, others more so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.162.223 ( talk) 22:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Substitutionary atonement/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
The article is intended to persuade rather than inform.
It also has the following errors. Introduction: 1. Substitution theory is a doctrine in some Christian theologies. (plural not singular) 2. The relationship between the quote from John 3:16 and substitution theory is not evident from the verse alone. 3. The scripture is not considered the primary basis of theology for all Christians. 4 Incarnation theory is not universally Christian. Their are many unitarians. Meaning of Doctrine: 1.The author lacks basic understanding of judaism. Animal sacrifice was not always a means of atonement. The author does not specify when the Hebrew Scripture affirms this practice. 2. "works" is not defined. 3. The author holds that "works" is a widespread belief in many religions. (The concept is ambiguous as it applies to eastern religions because the ontology morality and behavior is obscure to most westerners, its not true for Jews who celebrate Yom Kippur to a God of mercy, mercy is also a part of the islamic faith) 4 Christ death is the "heart" of some Christian faiths. 5. The author quotes only John the theologies of the other gospels differ so to establish a biblical basis for a theological position as the author does more than one gospel or biblical text is necessary. Belief in the Doctrine. 1. The author states that "all branches of christianity" endorse substitution theory as a central meaning of christ's death. It then goes on to state that the eastern orthodox consider it to be a minor part of "a single doctrine of the cross and resurrection." either this is a contradiction or the author has needlessly referred to separate body of thought with eastern orthodoxy and hence the caveat is unneeded. 2. Their is a pointless tangent about the muslim faith. Key Bible Texts: 1.Author should specify that christian belief holds old testament prophecy to conform with the death of a messiah. 2. The quoted sources are only unequivocal proofs of the doctrine for some believers. |
Last edited at 07:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 07:13, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me that thgis page is a piece of
WP:OR. It's main thesis, Substitutionary atonement is the name given to a number of Christian models of the atonement that regard Jesus as dying as a substitute for others, 'instead of' them.
lacks a source, while There are a number of differing theories that come under the umbrella term "substitutionary atonement"
is an aside comment from one author, Mark D. Baker. That's a very thin basis for a whole article. As Baker himself notes (p.25), many assume that "substitionary atonement" is merely a shorthand way to refer to "penal substitutionary atonement."
I'm going to redirect this article to
Penal substitution.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!
21:19, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
many assume that "substitionary atonement" is merely a shorthand way to refer to "penal substitutionary atonement.". But you may have a point; "atomenent" somehow inplies "substitution." Which raises the question: was Jesus' death an atonement, c.q. was that the earliest view? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:17, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Technically speaking, it is incorrect to state that vicarious/substitutionary atonement is the notion that Christ died "for us". Even Christians who reject the idea of vicarious punishment would agree that Christ died "for us" (i.e., that his death benefits us). Dying "for" someone is quite a different matter than dying "instead of" someone. SedesGobhani ( talk) 01:26, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Veverve: Tverberg has published several books on Biblical topics; that makes her WP:BLOG acceptable. And no, her blog is not the source for the phrase "third day"; that's Paul, as clearly indicated by the intro to this quote. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:48, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Substitutionary atonement article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Isn't Hugo Grotius associated more with the Governmental theory of the atonement? -- Victoria h 05:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is overly simplistic. It assumes that all Christians hold the substitutionary view of the atonement. The entire Eastern Church (both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) denies this view. Additionally, it is inappropriate to assert that the Epistle to the Romans "explains" the substitutionary atonement without giving any evidence that it even teaches it. Saying the Christ died "for" us is not the same as saying that Christ died "as" us (or "in our place").
Hello, I wanted to provide some record of the less developed doctrine of Substitution found in the Early Church. I hope others will be willing to let it stay, although I would certainly appreciate anyone editing the rather sloppy aspects of the addition. Also, feel free to let me know if I have violated any rules in making the addition as I did. Thanks. Wascott
edit-I have removed the addition for the moment --especially because I need a better way for providing the links.
This article is unclear as to the relation of this theory to the Atonement (Satisfaction view) theory.
The first paragraph was written in non-encyclopedic style and possibly not NPOV, and inappropriate as an introduction. It defined substitutionary atonement as a general principle rather than as a specifically Christian doctrine. But through Google I was unable to find any significant use of the term in any context other than Christian theology. So the correct introduction in my opinion is to state the SA is a Christian theological doctrine. The content that was in the first paragraph might be reuseable later in the body text if rewritten. Mrhsj 00:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
This page needs to distinguish between Penal Substitution and Substitutionary Atonement. The term "Substitutionary Atonement" covers any view of the atonement which includes the idea of Jesus standing as a substitute for part or all of mankind. Such substitution is not necessarily penal (Jesus takes the punishment man deserves) but could also be merely satisfactory (Jesus satisfies the demands of God's honour by suffering obediently - see Atonement (Satisfaction view)).
Since this page describes the specifically penal view of substitutionary atonement, I propose that it should be moved to the Penal substitution page which currently links here, and a shorter article should be written which links to the different forms of substitutionary atonement. 193.63.62.252 07:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
While the research is interesting here, it is original which is against Wiki policy. It is also rather flawed. While it is true that there are elements of punishment in the atonement theories of the Church Fathers, these quotes are taken out of the larger context of their teaching. Augustine did not teach penal substitution, but what is called the "mousetrap" theory which is a version of the ransom theory. Similarly Athanasius focused on the cross overcoming death, not on penal substitution. Taken out of context, these quotes are quite miss leading and historically inaccurate. They ignore the larger teaching and amount to cherry picking. One could argue that there are aspects of punishment found in earlier writings, but it is simply false to claim that penal substitution was taught by any of the church fathers. I move that they be stricken and replaced with a historical account of the development of the doctrine based on verifiable sources. sharktacos 22:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know where I can go to read about not what supposedly took place but how it supposedly works? I don't see anything like that on this page. What I mean is, this page goes through a great deal about what people believe Jesus's death did, but what I'm looking for is, how it is that Jesus's death can cause people to be absolved of thier sins. I don't know if this is the right place to ask this sort of question, but it would be very helpful to my research.
Kronos o 21:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The statement, in the article, that "The doctrine is not accepted by the Eastern Orthodox churches, who normatively teach John Cassian's doctrine of theosis." is not supported by any references and, in fact, it is not correct. The doctrine of substitutionary atonement is both assumed and alluded to, multiple times, in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and is clearly proclaimed, multiple times, in the Bible.
As a secondary observation, the doctrine of theosis did not originate with John Cassian, but can be found in the writings of Athanasius of Alexandria among others, and is derived from statements in the New Testament (e.g. 2 Peter 1:4, 1 John 3:2). Additionally, there is nothing in tbe doctrine of theosis which is contradictory to, or in any way incompatible with, the Orthodox doctrine of substitutionary atonement as taught by St. John Chrysostom, St. Athanasius of Alexandria, St. John of Damascus, and St. Symeon the New Theologian, among many others.
Vizenos ( talk) 16:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
It's not all that clear, but some of the more modern theologians might have deemed the doctrine of substitutionary atonement to be a tad anti-semitic, since there is a strong emphasis on sacrifice and expiation, a vocabulary that eventually found its way into the language of anti-semites, who demanded retribution for the alleged crimes of the Jews. ADM ( talk) 13:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
History2007 made a request on my talk page to move-protect this article. I'm not comfortable doing that without consensus that this is the correct title. Since the article has been moved a few times [1], consensus is unclear. What should the title to the article be?-- Chaser ( talk) 15:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
From what I can tell, Western Christians seem to be in eternal need of "proving" that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as they do by misquoting the Divine Liturgy, the Bible, or the opinions of Orthodox fathers or clerics, the last frequently being interpreted with western definitions, in order to legitimize their own beliefs. On the other hand, Orthodoxy tries to emphasize that both systems are radically different. Yes, there are similarities in doctrine between east and west, they originate from the same first thousand years, but the Orthodox are wisely more cautious. Just because something looks similar doesn't mean it is the same. We use similar words, but these words might have different meanings, some not as literal, others more so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.162.223 ( talk) 22:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Substitutionary atonement/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
The article is intended to persuade rather than inform.
It also has the following errors. Introduction: 1. Substitution theory is a doctrine in some Christian theologies. (plural not singular) 2. The relationship between the quote from John 3:16 and substitution theory is not evident from the verse alone. 3. The scripture is not considered the primary basis of theology for all Christians. 4 Incarnation theory is not universally Christian. Their are many unitarians. Meaning of Doctrine: 1.The author lacks basic understanding of judaism. Animal sacrifice was not always a means of atonement. The author does not specify when the Hebrew Scripture affirms this practice. 2. "works" is not defined. 3. The author holds that "works" is a widespread belief in many religions. (The concept is ambiguous as it applies to eastern religions because the ontology morality and behavior is obscure to most westerners, its not true for Jews who celebrate Yom Kippur to a God of mercy, mercy is also a part of the islamic faith) 4 Christ death is the "heart" of some Christian faiths. 5. The author quotes only John the theologies of the other gospels differ so to establish a biblical basis for a theological position as the author does more than one gospel or biblical text is necessary. Belief in the Doctrine. 1. The author states that "all branches of christianity" endorse substitution theory as a central meaning of christ's death. It then goes on to state that the eastern orthodox consider it to be a minor part of "a single doctrine of the cross and resurrection." either this is a contradiction or the author has needlessly referred to separate body of thought with eastern orthodoxy and hence the caveat is unneeded. 2. Their is a pointless tangent about the muslim faith. Key Bible Texts: 1.Author should specify that christian belief holds old testament prophecy to conform with the death of a messiah. 2. The quoted sources are only unequivocal proofs of the doctrine for some believers. |
Last edited at 07:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 07:13, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me that thgis page is a piece of
WP:OR. It's main thesis, Substitutionary atonement is the name given to a number of Christian models of the atonement that regard Jesus as dying as a substitute for others, 'instead of' them.
lacks a source, while There are a number of differing theories that come under the umbrella term "substitutionary atonement"
is an aside comment from one author, Mark D. Baker. That's a very thin basis for a whole article. As Baker himself notes (p.25), many assume that "substitionary atonement" is merely a shorthand way to refer to "penal substitutionary atonement."
I'm going to redirect this article to
Penal substitution.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!
21:19, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
many assume that "substitionary atonement" is merely a shorthand way to refer to "penal substitutionary atonement.". But you may have a point; "atomenent" somehow inplies "substitution." Which raises the question: was Jesus' death an atonement, c.q. was that the earliest view? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:17, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Technically speaking, it is incorrect to state that vicarious/substitutionary atonement is the notion that Christ died "for us". Even Christians who reject the idea of vicarious punishment would agree that Christ died "for us" (i.e., that his death benefits us). Dying "for" someone is quite a different matter than dying "instead of" someone. SedesGobhani ( talk) 01:26, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Veverve: Tverberg has published several books on Biblical topics; that makes her WP:BLOG acceptable. And no, her blog is not the source for the phrase "third day"; that's Paul, as clearly indicated by the intro to this quote. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:48, 1 June 2023 (UTC)