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In an attempt to tidy up, the information from Anglo-Saxons on the Anglo-Saxon migration has been moved to this page. It needs tidying up, but I think it firmly belongs in this page. Harthacanute 11:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
going back to the original discussion on this page I note that Weales - on which much of the sensationalist reporting and strange statistical speculation about population replacement (Haerke etc) is based - work is flawed as the line they take through Britain is no way representative of typical settlement patterns over the country, due to the viking eruption being focussed in that are and also only having a sample of seven towns. pehaps Haerkes work in the article should be balanced not just by further analysis of Weales work but by looking for other counts of Y and mitochondria and of autosomal types. talk 14:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been copied from Talk:Aurelanii Wars ( Wetman 19:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC)):
There is indeed a genuine gap in the History of Britain sequence. The Roman Britain article doesn't bring the story, thin as it may be, through to the Anglo-Saxon settlements. Isn't this timeframe sometimes designated Sub-Roman Britain? It's based on archaeology nowadays, with a glance at Bede and the hagiographies. Is that right? Should we start afresh with that title, or is there a better title to fit into the "History of Britain" taxobox? -- Wetman 00:41, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I do not understand the meaning of the following phrase in this article: " This is the era of Arthur and of Patrick, upholders of a civilized tradition at the limits of its frontier. Could someone please explain it to me?-- Heathcliff 02:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
"Patrick" is Saint Patrick and "Arthur" is King Arthur who are both considered to be figures of this period who have entered into legend. User:Dimadick
That's okay.
(;>p) Wetman 19:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC))
In that case I think that "upholders of the Roman tradition at the limits of its frontier" would be clearer," but I'm wondering if that statement is really acurate or at least verifiable. Arthur it seems to me was almost ceratinly not a real person, and even if he was almost nothing is known about the real man so it's hard to say that he upheld anything. I don't know anything about St. Patrick. In what we did he uphold Roman tradition?-- Heathcliff 02:42, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
This seems one area of history where the definitive dates that a timeline necessarily implies are too arbitrary not to be misleading and a source of largely irrelevant contention. Can't we work all the elements in the "timeline" into more nuanced discourse in the main text? -- Wetman 05:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
This article gives way more space to the theories of Francis Pryor than to the consensus view. Whatever that is. The article doesn't bother to tell.
It seems to be an accepted archaelogical/historical term, but I must say I find the use of "Sub-Roman Britain" to refer to this intermediate period to be confusing.
My first reaction was that the use of the prefix "sub" in "Sub-Roman" sounded odd, then parsed it as "Britain under the Romans"; I was then surprised to read it referred to the period after the Roman occupation. I'm afraid I can't suggest an alternative: if it weren't so redundant, I would go for "Romano-British Britain". -- Saforrest 00:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Use 'Post-Roman', it sounds les dopy, idiotic and confuseing!!!-- 86.25.54.39 ( talk) 16:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the map as the information it contains does not seem to be based on any reliable sources. Though there are occasional references to some of the kingdoms on the map in contemporary sources (such as those kingdoms mentioned in Gildas), there is little to locate them geographically, and certainly not to start drawing a complex network of borders on a map. Other kingdoms on the map seem to be inferred from later or earlier political entities, assuming that they existed in 500. As with many things on this period, great unknowns and grey areas are regularly glossed over in an attempt to give a coherent picture that can not be substantiated by the source material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.253.219.157 ( talk • contribs)
I just reverted a deletion of a passage about genetic evidence. This isn't meant to be editwarring; I'd just like to discuss what to do with such material in general first. More than half-a-year or so ago I objected to the addition of a very, very wordy (and science-geeky) paragraph on this topic to the article myself. But I do think the material has value. What I'd like to suggest is that all of that material be summarized, without reference to this chromosome or alelle or that, and just get to the conclusions (and arguments against them, if they are strong and sourceable). I think it IS of value to the article to discuss the post-Roman genepool, but we needn't get tumid or overly technical about it in this article. Yes? — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 07:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The things I dislike about these English articles are the Pro-Celtic bias and the anti-Anglo-Saxon bias. Genetics doesn't make the English (the name 'English' is itself from 'Angle') a Celtic group. Whether or not the English have some Celtic blood is unimportant, they are a Germanic group. Also, Oppenheimer has been criticised by many and numerous studies have contradicted his, so using him as the only source for English genetics is, to put it bluntly, laughable. DR. Martin Hesselius 13:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Can Gildas really be called contemporary? He covers a lot of ground, and was clearly not alive when much of his historical narrative took place (Dumville especially in his 1977 article points out the lack of reliable contemporary sources). St Patrick appears to be in similar doubt. The dating just doesn't seem to be secure enough to assert that they were contemporary with sub-Roman Britain. fluoronaut 16:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I will answer your question and also add a few more things.
Gildas was alive during the Anglo-Sason migration, so be it the end of it. He does note a mass migration and the 'Welsh' being pushed into the hills. Obviously the British and Anglo-Saxons mixed in some cases but I doubt it happened often in the earlier days due to the Anglo-Saxon paganism. As does Bede who was nearer to the period than modern academics like Oppenheimer etc but still many years after. I believe in a mass migration as genetical studies don't really prove anything other than the ancestors of the English lived in Siberia for a time. The part of British DNA termed 'Celtic' or 'British' isn't really much to do with the Celts but a great deal of European people. Oppenheimer claims that there has been a Germanic presence before Rome (which maybe true, however, I would have thought the Romans would have know this! There were certainly Germanic soldiers in service of Rome) but it is safer to say that Gildas was right about the Anglo-Saxon mass migration. King Óðinn The Aesir 21:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The trouble with your argument is that Gildas doesn't mention a mass migration at all. Indeed, Gildas, Bede and the A-S Chronicle make references to warbands arriving in small numbers of "keels" (large open rowing boats like the one at Sutton Hoo). I haven't checked, but the Chronicle probably mentions no more than 9 or so boatloads of incomers leading to the creation of Wessex. In fact no contemporary or near contemporary writing mentions a single peasant being imported from the Continent, only warriors, and small numbers of these, are described.
In regard to the implied situation of apartheid between the A-S and the natives, this really has no basis. The two peoples had very similar societies, material cultures and didn't look very different, why would they have treated each other as wholly alien? The British and native Indians (of India) were far more different culturally and equally different in religion than the A-S and Celtic Britons were, and lo and behold, where did the "Anglo-Indian" population come from?
There are a number of indications that native dynasties became Anglo-Saxon over time. The founder of Wessex was a man called Cerdic, this is a British name derived from Caratacus. Some of his successors had undisputedly Celtic names also, such as Ceawlin and Caedwalla. Even that great pagan Penda, didn't have a Germanic name, his name relates to the Welsh 'pen' meaning head or chief, his father Pybba has a name perhaps related to 'pybyr' meaning 'strong' also in Welsh.
Oppenheimer like many others gets confused by language. Language is a cultural trait, it isn't inherited like DNA markers. He might argue that 'north-central European' genetic markers were present in Britain before the Romans but he cannot have any idea what language or languages the possessors of these genetic markers spoke.
There is a phrase in the article about a "British underclass" described in Ine's laws. The wergild price of Britons was lower than that of the English, but the laws describe "Welshmen who prosper and own 5 hydes of land." This was quite a lot of land and its owner would have been an important person. There are also Welshmen who are described as "The King's horse-Welshmen" who seem to have had a special relationship to the king. To describe these as being an underclass would seem somewhat inaccurate, to describe them as being at a legal disadvantage compared to their English compatriots would be better.
Urselius 15:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia should refer to migration or invasion consistently. For their own reasons, brits like to refer to Roman/Norman invasions but refer to Saxon migration. Wikipedia should be harmonised and use one of the two terms consistently.
Not all things are amenable to regularisation. The Roman and Norman invasions were just that, and they were extensively recorded by contemporary historians. The way that large parts of Sub-Roman Britain became Anglo-Saxon England is rather more obscure. There doesn't seem to have been a single invasion, but even the multiple small invasions by Germanic war-bands described in the sources were recorded long after the events and some accounts may have more than a little legendary, rather than factual, content.
The changes of culture and language in lowland Britain were profound but the idea that a mass-migration of people from North Germany caused these changes has been challenged by both archaeological and genetic evidence in the past few decades. Therefore appropriateness the use of the word "migration" is also moot. Perhaps the term "Anglicisation" is the best catch-all title for the process.
Urselius 11:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The reference to Cunliffe, Iron Age Britain 1995:7 that read "in the same English regions 69% of male lines are still of aboriginal, pre-Celtic origin" has been edited to delete "pre-Celtic" by User:Zburh. Was this a correction to better reflect Cunliffe's assertion, or just a manipulation of the information?-- Wetman 19:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The reference in Bede, writing well over two centuries after the supposed time of Hengest, is based on Anglo-Saxon origin myths. The dates used by Bede are his rationalisation of an existing oral myth. These is no contemporary (fifth-century) evidence for the existence of Hengest. As an essentially legendary character from Anglo-Saxon myth, perhaps a section on Hengest would be better placed in a section on Anglo-Saxon beliefs and culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.157.20 ( talk) 18:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Should this article be retitled Post-Roman Britain? There are two reasons to consider this change - that the term "sub" is derogatory and that Post-Roman is more widely used. The former comes from the days when the cultural characteristics of the Roman period were seen as ideal but a more appreciative view is now often taken of the cultural characteristics of the following period. Comparing the number of search engine hits on the web for the two terms reveals that Post-Roman is used nearly 40 times as often as Sub-Britain. The latter is mainly used in archaeological contexts. I know that this is a poor measure of its relative importance but is indicative. Adresia ( talk) 11:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The article appeared in 1977 not 1993. Most of the hits on "sub-Roman Britain" appear shortly after this time and many are references to this paper. Both Post-Roman and Sub-Roman are now used with the former in the lead on Google Books and Google Scholar. Sub-Roman implies that Roman culture was better but this was not necessarily so for the majority of Britons. Adresia ( talk) 21:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Don't know where 1993 came from - you're right of course, it's much earlier. fluoronaut ( talk) 17:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The name for the period in the article on "History of England" is Post Roman! 88.105.250.69 ( talk) 21:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Support a possible move for the reasons given above. And in an archaeological sense, sub-x could refer to pre-x, which this is not, or "less than" x, which is the implication here. 173.66.211.53 ( talk) 22:37, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know of evidence for its existence in the post-Roman period? It was certainly an important entity in the pre-Roman period. It is shown on the British kingdoms map but on what basis? Adresia ( talk) 18:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Probably the main evidence in the LPRIA for the Durotriges is their coins. There is some written evidence for them in the Roman period but not after. Different maps (guesses) exist for the post roman period. 88.105.161.36 ( talk) 21:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Though Cunliffe's souce? Or did he infer that the Durotriges were a close-knit confederacy of smaller units from their coins alone? It's just that I was recently in a lecture with Mary Beard (Professor of Classics at Cambridge University) and she stated that pretty much everything people like Cunliffe say about tribal groupings prior to the Roman conquest is at best educated conjecture, and at worst mere fantasy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.155.12 ( talk) 17:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be about the History of Sub Roman Britain, NOT the History of academic squabbles concerning the history of Sub Roman Britain. This article would be great for a history student who want to find about academic disputes, but it is useless as a reference for a layman who wants a general idea of what happened between 400 and 700 AD in the UK.
To take only one glaring example of bad writing.
“Writing in Latin perhaps about AD 540, Gildas gives a preliminary account of the History of Britain but the earlier part is in error.” HOW, ABOUT WHAT “He castigates five rulers in western Britain - Constantine of Dumnonia, Aurelius Caninus, Vortipor of the Demetae, Cuneglassus and Maglocunus - for their sins.” WHICH SINS! “He also attacks the British clergy.” FOR WHAT! “He gives information on the British diet, dress and entertainment.” WHAT DOES HE SAY THEY ARE? “He writes that Britons were killed, emigrated or were enslaved but gives no idea of numbers of each type.” THIS IS THE BEST SENTENCE IN THE PARAGRAPH BUT IT IS AT LEAST HALF A WHINE THAT DILDAS GIVES NO NUMBERS.
Granted that the sources for this period are weak, but you have to say something. The whole article can’t be academic criticism. You NEED a narrative based one something then you can go into criticisms of the narrative, but with out that you don’t have shit. 96.26.177.229 ( talk) 01:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Looking through this page I am shocked by the lack of historical rigour applied to it. All of the narrative is based on incredibly weak evidence, much of which is mythical and written several centuries later, even though it is here presented as fact. The so-called nations on the map have little foundation in evidence - the sad fact is that the peoples who lived in Britain in this period did not draw lines on maps in neat ways that we like in the 21st century. Please please remember that Gildas may be our main source but he is limited on so many levels. Writers on this page have not realised that "what we know" and "what we would like to know" and "what people think would be a good idea to know" are all quite different things. Anyone who comes along claiming to have "the story" of Britain in the 5th and 6th centuries should pay serious attention to what has been said about the topic in the last 20 years, and not be attempting to cast Arthurian legend and pre-1990 Dark Age romanticism as unquestionable fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.133.16 ( talk) 21:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I was asked for some reason to say why I reverted a series of edits. [2] I was quite surprised to be sent such a message as this series of edits removed some well sourced and well founded points of view from the article, and some of the edit summaries even admitted that their sole purpose was to remove a specific point of view from the article, something we should not allow. This series of edits did not seem to be the result of any decision by editors on this talk page, and therefore do not seem to represent anything like the settled consensus for this article. Here are the reasons for the reverts:
That's it, I think I've covered everything. I'm a bit angry that I got a rather nasty note on my talk page when I was clearly replacing verifiably sourced information that had been removed by an editor who specifically stated in their edit summaries that they were removing these points of view because they did not agree with them and not because they were not supported by reliable sources. Alun ( talk) 12:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Here are some direct quotes relevant to what Oppenheimer says about "Anglo-Saxon" migration to England during the sub-Roman period, they are relevant to this edit.
I'm not concerned with the truth, I am concerned with including citable reliable sources accurately, and I am concerned with the casual removal of verifiable cited information just because it does not sit with the belief of any particular editor. Wikipedia does not exist to promote "facts" or "the truth", it exists to give all relevant notable points of view, this is the core of neutrality. The removal of this information was a direct breach of our neutrality policy, Oppenheimer does say this, removing it does not change that. I don't care if you disagree with Oppenheimer, I don't care if you want to add additional information that contradicts Oppenheimer, that would be good, it would make the article more neutral, but I do care that editors remove sources just because they don't like what they say. That makes me very angry. Alun ( talk) 17:23, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't see the connection
here. The sentence is saying that the study cannot find a statistically significant difference between North German samples and Danish samples collected, and so the researchers combined these samples and called them a single population North Germany/Denmark (NGD). Of course this is a "bad thing" because it means that Capelli et al. cannot distinguish between "Anglo-Saxon" migration and later Danish Viking migration. The study did not collect any Frisian samples at all, but they do include the Frisian samples collected by Weal et al. in 2002 in some of their statistical analyses. When they include these Frisian samples they find no significant statistical difference between these samples and the NGD samples, indicating that any difference between these samples and the NGD samples can be due to chance. On the other hand when they include the Frisian samples of Weal et al. in their principal components analysis they find that "The Frisian samples were more 'Continental' than any of the British samples, although they were somewhat closer to the British ones than the North German/Denmark sample". I assume that this edit is referring to the principal components analysis, but the sentence it has been included in is not referring to the PC analysis, nor is it referring to the similarities or differences between NGD samples and samples from Great Britain and Ireland, the sentence it has been included in was referring to the impossibility of distinguishing the North German and Danish samples. I cannot see the relevance of Capelli et al. not being able to distinguish between North German and Danish samples to the postion of Weal et al. Frisian samples on Capelli's principal components analysis, these observations are not related as far as I can see.
Alun (
talk)
06:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I think that the end of Roman Britain was caused by the Huns. It's logical. :-) -- Mazarin07 ( talk) 00:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
A quite novel theory. Interesting...-- 136.8.150.6 ( talk) 17:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
May I propose a list is created on this page listing the names of the principal settlements of the time in their Brythonic / Old Welsh names. I know there has been some controversy regarding the attribution of an alternate Welsh name to places presently within the bounds of England and this page would be a place where such a list could sit. What do Wikipædians think about this proposal? James Frankcom ( talk) 23:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
May I draw your attention to the article King of the Britons and the discussion started on its talk page? This stems partly from my recent move to edit out and prepare for deletion what I regard as a very misleading and inappropriate template - Template:Kings of the Britons - which had been added to the articles on Owain Glyndŵr, the two Llywelyns and other medieval Welsh kings and princes, as well as the giant Idris Gawr (!) and various early and sub-Roman leaders. The title "King of the Britons" had also been added to the info boxes and lead text. Your comments and, hopefully, support would be welcome. Enaidmawr ( talk) 00:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Do we have to use the word 'culture'? I suggest that the word 'society' has a place in an article like this. Keith-264 ( talk) 13:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why the consequences of the Plague of Justinian are not taken in due consideration when dealing with the end of the last descendants in Britain of Roman Britain. Here it is (if Morris' book is not enough!) another good reference: Little, Lester K., ed., Plague and the End of Antiquity: The Pandemic of 541–750, Cambridge, 2006. ISBN 0-521-84639-0. Wikipedia is made of contributions from many users: if you disagree, please ADD your data and DON'T ERASE information if well referenced, please. And, please again, don't erase without real reason a map showing the historical extention of non anglosaxon Britain in 500 AD.-- Paul0559 ( talk) 02:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your answer, Notuncurious. As you can see in the article there it is a section that deals with the fact that half the population of western Britain was killed by the Plague of Justinian. We are not dealing with extreme weather, but with something very very catastrophic. And don't forget that in those centuries a big plague was followed always by widespread famine and lack of newborns (so: no soldiers for the wars 20 years later, exactly when the last romanized cities of western Britain -like Bath- were conquered by the Anglosaxons!)....the Arab civilization in the Middle East, as a example, suffered a similar fate in the XIII century and never recovered since then. I write this to explain the importance of a huge plague, even if there are not precise statistical data & information about.
Anyway, feel free to do what you want with my contribution to the article: I don't want to be involved in edit wars or something similar. Best regards.-- Paul0559 ( talk) 03:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry for all this mess. Please, calm down. I am sure some impartial editor will understand that my edits about the Plague of Justinian were based on scholar books (and place in the article the reference to Little, Lester K., ed., Plague and the End of Antiquity: The Pandemic of 541–750, Cambridge, 2006. ISBN 0-521-84639-0. and the map showing the Welsh (as Anglosaxons called the Romano-British people) area in 500 AD. -- Paul0559 ( talk) 17:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I presume the map in question is from Grant Allen's book, which was first published I think in 1881. It might be useful in an article looking at the development of scholarship on this question, but it clearly can't be used in any way that suggests it is accurate. Dougweller ( talk) 19:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: CS1 maint: date and year (
link)I am a commons editor, but I don'even dream of reaching the level of scholars & professional map editors.-- Paul0559 ( talk) 03:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Sincerely (and with all the respect for the Commons editor) I cannot put on the same level the map of the scholar Allen and the other map in the article done by user:Briangotts (File Britain 500 CE.png)
And, as I have written before, Allen's map is perfectly suited to show Sub-Roman Britain in 500 AD.
What I cannot understand well is why you accept uncritically the map Britain 500 CE.png.....Are you sure all the many borders are well done? And how the Commons editor who did the map was able to precisely define those borders if we lack detailed information from those centuries? At least the scholar Allen wrote on his map -with a serious approach- that the borders were approximate and left the area of the "Welsh" without borders inside. Indeed, I am going to try to edit a map on Commons about the last "romanized" british cities in the same year, but I don't even dream of pinpointing precise borders of Celtic/Romano-British/Anglosaxons kingdoms.....and of course I am no match for scholar's maps. A last salute.-- Paul0559 ( talk) 03:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to Dougweller for bringing this issue forward. The image was deleted from Scotland during the Roman Empire on the above grounds. However, I think it is has a purpose, and there is a paucity of suitable images, so I've restored it and added various caveats including "Created by Grant Allen and published in 1884, the names of the tribes and boundaries are indicative at best." If there is something more up-to-date please let me know. Ben Mac Dui 10:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
For clarification,
Regards, Notuncurious ( talk) 17:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Oppenheimer does not state that the people that lived in what is now England are Celtic, but Germanic people of Basque genetics that existed long before the Anglo-Saxon invasions and are related to the Belgae, whom he identifies as Germanic, and the people of the Frisia coasts. He postulates this because he does not believe that the Anglo-Saxon couldn't have changed the Brythonic language into a Germanic one. He also too umbrage with the fact that he was misquoted as stating that the English are Celtic. I added this information to the article but it was removed as an act of vandalism and thus I reinstated it. All the Celtic romanticists cannot just misquote Oppenheimer to suit their ends as that is unencyclopaedic. The Mummy ( talk) 13:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
The last half of the article is allegedly based on Oppenheimer's findings and yet it is a complete bastardization of his ideas and thus, whether it is too long or not, my revisions are justified. YOU removed relevent info because you are clearly biased towards the racist and nationalistic view that the English are derived from people that have always be here. I think Oppenheimer's view falls under this and thoroughly disagree with it, yet I think that misinterpreting his views is still wrong.
And bagpipes certainly are not only Celtic, by the way, and there is no evidence that they existed in the British isles before the 14th century. The Mummy ( talk) 16:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I have not read Oppenheimer, but I would have to agree with Noctuncurious's approach. The more and more you make statements about undo bias that come across as personal attacks, the more and more I am concerned about your motives for making these edits. A complete removal of factual information that may not be from your personally favored source would make the article misleading or perhaps biased in the totally opposite direction. The Mummy, please bring scholarly work forward to either support your own view, or dispute the previously represented position, otherwise your edits and approach to this page should be removed because they violate consensus, thank you. SADADS ( talk) 19:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I only have a bias for the facts, SADADS. Oppenheimer does not say that that the English are culturally Celtic, he says they are genetically related to Basques like the Britons, Frisians and other groups in Europe. The way the last paragraph was worded made it sound like Oppenheimer believes that the English are Celtic (or Brittonic to be more precise) when he does not. He states in his work that he believes that the area which is now England has been inhabited by a Germanic linguistic group before the Anglo-Saxon invasion. He believes that Celtic seperated from I.E. earlier than is presumed and he also believed that English broke away from P.Germ. earlier than is presumed.
You should either contain Oppenheimer's real theory or not mention him in relation to this topic at all. And I certainly do not have a bias towards his theory as I find it rather absurd; what I do object to is people misrepresent his theory in an encyclopaedia article. It seems to me that a lot of wikipedias have some sort of racialistic aversion to any suggestion that the English - whose language has the least Celtic loans than any of the Germanic languages spoken today, Icelandic included- are not Celtic and thus want to pervert Oppenheimer's theory to fit their own idea of how it should be. This is not good scholarship and is against the rules, whether you agree with them or not. Oppenheimer's theories do not state that a Celtic culture continued in Britain, he merely proposed the idea that the Welsh and English are both genetically similar to Basques, though he believes they both represent two different strands of Basgue genetics with a cline in the border lands, one for the Britons and one for the Germanic people which he believes lived here just after the Last Glacial Maximum. He believed that the Germanic influence in pre-England is more from North Germanic settlers than the later West Germanic incursion, although he also links these to the Germanic tribes in the Belgae confederacy and the coast of what is now Friesland. I do not agree with his view, however, but it should be included in this article rather than the weasel words that make it seem like he believes in a Celtic cultural survival. Infact, he even states that it is unlikely that the area which makes up most of England was ever Celtic due to the lack of Celtic traces in the English language and the fact that England only has a few Brittonic toponymes.
And I certainly do not have an anti-Celtic bias as I am a proud Gael myself, however, this is an encyclopedia and making up theories and attributing them to Dr. Oppenheimer is wrong and certainly against the rules. The Mummy ( talk) 23:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
No my violet reaction does not bring into question my motivation, it just shows my contempt for anti-encyclopedic revisions and the fact that my very relevant revision was reverted despite the fact that I explained that the theory purported at the end of the section ran contrary to the real views of Oppenheimer who does not believe in a Celtic continuity in the area which is now England. My reaction is besides the point, either you should reference Oppenheimer's real theory or you should not reference him at all.
I have made a compromise and have left much of the original text before my initial revision even though no sources where previded for it, unlike the segment I added.
And, I removed the Northumbrian smallpipe reference because A). bagpipes are not evidence of a Celtic survival as they are not Celtic in origin, B). the first Celts to use bagpipes in the British isles were the Irish who started this tradition in the 13th or 14th century C). the first reference to the instruments in Britain are from Chaucer who was English and D). many non-Celtic regions traditionally have bagpipes (and for that matter tartan) such as Scandinavia and the Slavic nations. That reference obviously came from the parallels between Northern England and Scotland, however, in Scotland the smallpipes are called Inglis pipes. The tradition of bagpipes, much like kilts in the modern sense, is not an ancient tradition and thus does not date back to the ancient Britons, Picts or Gaels who didn't use the instrument.
I sincerely apologise if you feel offended by some of my remarks and I will apologise for not making a discussion before my revision, even though I do not feel that a discussion was necessary as I merely corrected an erroneous passage of text. The Mummy ( talk) 00:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Any objections to the current logic behind the change Notuncurious? (I am not sure if we completely answered your objections, but I think The Mummy has a valid point
You make very good points, however, the section contained highly questionable content, as I demonstrated with the smallpipes, which are a modern instrument in the area and were first mention further to the south of Britain by Chaucer.
I do think that some editors are scholars, I am myself, however, the error in the text didn't seem like a scholarly error unless it was made by a scholar far outside of his field. I have encountered the same misinterpretation of Oppenheimer's view on Wikipedia and the internet before which strikes me as deliberate weaseling or vandalism which was unnoticed by the majority of editors on this article.
But now we are in, more or less, agreement. I should have discussed my changes first, however, these changes were needed because misusing theory of anyone does not fit with the criteria set out by Wikipedia. Having Oppenheimer's full theory clarifies what be believes, which is that the area which is now England has never been Celtic but Germanic in culture. He merely states that both groups have similar, but not the same, genetics from the Basques. I do not subscribe to his theory as he is not a geneticist (he is a paediatrician) and is using the Weale and Capelli studies as his basis. Now the Weale and Capelli studies show a majority of continental, or Anglo-Saxon genetics - a large majority in the area Weale studied and a smaller majority in all of England in Capelli's study - with less continental genetics under the Thames and to the west. This was put down to the influence of the traditionally Celtic areas in southern England such as Cornwall.
Oppenheimer's interpretation seemed very popular with the media but was, I find, absurd. However, as he made a major media splash, his views are still relevant if portrayed in their true light. The Mummy ( talk) 12:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to point out Weales - on which much of the sensationalist reporting and strange statistical speculation about population replacement (Haerke etc) is based - work is flawed as the line they take through Britain is no way representative of typical settlement patterns over the country, due to the viking eruption being focussed in that are and also only having a sample of seven towns. pehaps Haerkes work in the article should be balanced not just by further analysis of Weales work (which Oppenheimer does, although his conclusion is not necessarily affected by the defects in Weales work as much as Haerkes was) but by looking for other counts of Y and mitochondria and of autosomal types. 213.106.120.242 ( talk) 16:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
The following paragraph is out of place under "End of Roman Britain":
"Others may have lived in separate communities from those of the Anglo-Saxons, but under Anglo-Saxon rule. The laws of King Ethelbert of Kent, probably written in the early seventh century, make reference to a legal underclass known as laets who might represent British communities. There definitely is a British (wealh) underclass referred to in Ine of Wessex’s law code, written in the late seventh or early eighth centuries."
Under "Archeological Evidence": "In the Sub-Roman period there seems to have been a preference for using less durable materials than in the Roman period." sounds like PC thinking. Perhaps the inhabitants of Rio's favelas have a preference for living in shacks instead of houses with indoor plumbing and running water... If you don't want to say, or don't agree, that they had lost the ability to build in brick and stone, then perhaps "Buildings were constructed of less-durable materials than in the Roman period", or something similar.
Under "Population changes" "According to a new study, an apartheid-like system existed in early Anglo-Saxon England, which prevented the native British genes getting into the Anglo-Saxon population by restricting intermarriage and wiped out a majority of original British genes in favour of Germanic ones"
Although I admit I haven't read the book "Saxons, Vikings, and Celts", does this agree with Sykes?
161.11.121.245 ( talk) 13:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Paper at [3] Dougweller ( talk) 20:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I have tagged the article, as the first half is severely lacking in sources to substantiate the text.
I removed the insertion after the citation for 'Age of Arthur', as this refers to the usage of that term, rather than the subject of the article. I am sure that something could be said about Arthur, but not this way, and not much - as there is an article devoted to the legendary figure, and this sort of material would be better off dealt with there.
It is not uncommon for a text about post-Roman / pre-Norman Britain to have half-a-dozen pages about Arthur - if only to point out most of what we know is based on the the fiction of Geoffrey of Monmouth and Norman historical revisionism of Henry II. Whilst I am sure that some information has since been superceded, Lloyd Laing's "Celtic Britain" (Palladin, 1979) gives a concise account of what we know and how the legend developed. I have this text, as well as Geoffrey's book, the Anglo Saxon Chronicles, and numerous other books (although nothing that recent), and Patrick's account - if there is anything specific needing looking up, let me know. Mish ( talk) 09:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Anglo-Saxon migration comes after the end of Roman Britain, surely? The sequence should be:
Is it possible to reorganise this to follow the historical flow as much as possible (acknoweldging there is room for debate); at the moment the narrative is confused. Mish ( talk) 09:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
"Studies of Old English, P- and Q-Celtic and Latin have provided evidence for contact between the Britons, the Gaels, and the Anglo-Saxons. The general consensus is that Old English has little evidence of linguistic contact." Is there contact evidence or not? "England (except Cornwall and Cumbria) shows little evidence now of Celtic in its placenames. There are scattered Celtic placenames throughout, increasing towards the west. There are also Celtic river names and topographical names." How does the two last sentences fit the first?
Can someone who knows the subject sort this out? DeCausa ( talk) 19:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
"The withdrawal of Roman legions did not put an end to the Roman culture of the "lost province", which still remained part of the Roman cultural world, as Britons self-identified as Roman."
This is drivel. It makes my eyes bleed JF42 ( talk) 21:59, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
The Gewisse region has important historical information regarding this area. Does anyone have additional information on this?
Twillisjr ( talk) 16:30, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Do we need to identify unequivocally "British" kingdoms as "Celtic"? Reasons for doing so include the fact that most of their populations probably did speak something roughly ancestral to modern Welsh. Reasons for not doing so include Oppenheimer's Germanic theories (see discussion above) with the possibility of non-Celtic Belgic elements in the South-East at least, and the widespread use of Latin, which continued to be spoken as the prestige language even of the western kingdoms for centuries. That's leaving out the Irish element and whatever Pictish or other languages may have been relevant to the area. I suggest that giving a blanket description of these kingdoms as "Celtic" is un-necessary at best and mildly inappropriate at worst. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 09:50, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
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If I didn't know anything about the subject, I would assume that "sub-Roman Britain" meant Britain immediately before the Romans came (i.e. stratigraphically below it), rather than immediately after they left. According to the lede, it is derived from the inferior-relative-to-Roman pottery of the era, but this is unsourced and isn't expanded on in the rest of the article. Iapetus ( talk) 08:40, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
Huge chunks of this have been tagged for 'citation needed' and 'disputed' because no sources are listed and the statements are often controversial among the historical circles who study the period. Case in point - the plague victims' numbers. 50.111.63.192 ( talk) 03:40, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
This is unsourced, and I think is based on a misunderstanding somewhere along the line. St Tathan, also known as Tatheus, is credited with founding a church at the former Roman town of Caerwent, about 5 miles from Chepstow - but was unconnected with St Thaddaeus. Can anyone clarify this statement (added by a long-departed editor back in 2007), or should it simply be deleted? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 20:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
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In an attempt to tidy up, the information from Anglo-Saxons on the Anglo-Saxon migration has been moved to this page. It needs tidying up, but I think it firmly belongs in this page. Harthacanute 11:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
going back to the original discussion on this page I note that Weales - on which much of the sensationalist reporting and strange statistical speculation about population replacement (Haerke etc) is based - work is flawed as the line they take through Britain is no way representative of typical settlement patterns over the country, due to the viking eruption being focussed in that are and also only having a sample of seven towns. pehaps Haerkes work in the article should be balanced not just by further analysis of Weales work but by looking for other counts of Y and mitochondria and of autosomal types. talk 14:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been copied from Talk:Aurelanii Wars ( Wetman 19:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC)):
There is indeed a genuine gap in the History of Britain sequence. The Roman Britain article doesn't bring the story, thin as it may be, through to the Anglo-Saxon settlements. Isn't this timeframe sometimes designated Sub-Roman Britain? It's based on archaeology nowadays, with a glance at Bede and the hagiographies. Is that right? Should we start afresh with that title, or is there a better title to fit into the "History of Britain" taxobox? -- Wetman 00:41, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I do not understand the meaning of the following phrase in this article: " This is the era of Arthur and of Patrick, upholders of a civilized tradition at the limits of its frontier. Could someone please explain it to me?-- Heathcliff 02:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
"Patrick" is Saint Patrick and "Arthur" is King Arthur who are both considered to be figures of this period who have entered into legend. User:Dimadick
That's okay.
(;>p) Wetman 19:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC))
In that case I think that "upholders of the Roman tradition at the limits of its frontier" would be clearer," but I'm wondering if that statement is really acurate or at least verifiable. Arthur it seems to me was almost ceratinly not a real person, and even if he was almost nothing is known about the real man so it's hard to say that he upheld anything. I don't know anything about St. Patrick. In what we did he uphold Roman tradition?-- Heathcliff 02:42, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
This seems one area of history where the definitive dates that a timeline necessarily implies are too arbitrary not to be misleading and a source of largely irrelevant contention. Can't we work all the elements in the "timeline" into more nuanced discourse in the main text? -- Wetman 05:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
This article gives way more space to the theories of Francis Pryor than to the consensus view. Whatever that is. The article doesn't bother to tell.
It seems to be an accepted archaelogical/historical term, but I must say I find the use of "Sub-Roman Britain" to refer to this intermediate period to be confusing.
My first reaction was that the use of the prefix "sub" in "Sub-Roman" sounded odd, then parsed it as "Britain under the Romans"; I was then surprised to read it referred to the period after the Roman occupation. I'm afraid I can't suggest an alternative: if it weren't so redundant, I would go for "Romano-British Britain". -- Saforrest 00:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Use 'Post-Roman', it sounds les dopy, idiotic and confuseing!!!-- 86.25.54.39 ( talk) 16:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the map as the information it contains does not seem to be based on any reliable sources. Though there are occasional references to some of the kingdoms on the map in contemporary sources (such as those kingdoms mentioned in Gildas), there is little to locate them geographically, and certainly not to start drawing a complex network of borders on a map. Other kingdoms on the map seem to be inferred from later or earlier political entities, assuming that they existed in 500. As with many things on this period, great unknowns and grey areas are regularly glossed over in an attempt to give a coherent picture that can not be substantiated by the source material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.253.219.157 ( talk • contribs)
I just reverted a deletion of a passage about genetic evidence. This isn't meant to be editwarring; I'd just like to discuss what to do with such material in general first. More than half-a-year or so ago I objected to the addition of a very, very wordy (and science-geeky) paragraph on this topic to the article myself. But I do think the material has value. What I'd like to suggest is that all of that material be summarized, without reference to this chromosome or alelle or that, and just get to the conclusions (and arguments against them, if they are strong and sourceable). I think it IS of value to the article to discuss the post-Roman genepool, but we needn't get tumid or overly technical about it in this article. Yes? — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 07:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The things I dislike about these English articles are the Pro-Celtic bias and the anti-Anglo-Saxon bias. Genetics doesn't make the English (the name 'English' is itself from 'Angle') a Celtic group. Whether or not the English have some Celtic blood is unimportant, they are a Germanic group. Also, Oppenheimer has been criticised by many and numerous studies have contradicted his, so using him as the only source for English genetics is, to put it bluntly, laughable. DR. Martin Hesselius 13:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Can Gildas really be called contemporary? He covers a lot of ground, and was clearly not alive when much of his historical narrative took place (Dumville especially in his 1977 article points out the lack of reliable contemporary sources). St Patrick appears to be in similar doubt. The dating just doesn't seem to be secure enough to assert that they were contemporary with sub-Roman Britain. fluoronaut 16:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I will answer your question and also add a few more things.
Gildas was alive during the Anglo-Sason migration, so be it the end of it. He does note a mass migration and the 'Welsh' being pushed into the hills. Obviously the British and Anglo-Saxons mixed in some cases but I doubt it happened often in the earlier days due to the Anglo-Saxon paganism. As does Bede who was nearer to the period than modern academics like Oppenheimer etc but still many years after. I believe in a mass migration as genetical studies don't really prove anything other than the ancestors of the English lived in Siberia for a time. The part of British DNA termed 'Celtic' or 'British' isn't really much to do with the Celts but a great deal of European people. Oppenheimer claims that there has been a Germanic presence before Rome (which maybe true, however, I would have thought the Romans would have know this! There were certainly Germanic soldiers in service of Rome) but it is safer to say that Gildas was right about the Anglo-Saxon mass migration. King Óðinn The Aesir 21:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The trouble with your argument is that Gildas doesn't mention a mass migration at all. Indeed, Gildas, Bede and the A-S Chronicle make references to warbands arriving in small numbers of "keels" (large open rowing boats like the one at Sutton Hoo). I haven't checked, but the Chronicle probably mentions no more than 9 or so boatloads of incomers leading to the creation of Wessex. In fact no contemporary or near contemporary writing mentions a single peasant being imported from the Continent, only warriors, and small numbers of these, are described.
In regard to the implied situation of apartheid between the A-S and the natives, this really has no basis. The two peoples had very similar societies, material cultures and didn't look very different, why would they have treated each other as wholly alien? The British and native Indians (of India) were far more different culturally and equally different in religion than the A-S and Celtic Britons were, and lo and behold, where did the "Anglo-Indian" population come from?
There are a number of indications that native dynasties became Anglo-Saxon over time. The founder of Wessex was a man called Cerdic, this is a British name derived from Caratacus. Some of his successors had undisputedly Celtic names also, such as Ceawlin and Caedwalla. Even that great pagan Penda, didn't have a Germanic name, his name relates to the Welsh 'pen' meaning head or chief, his father Pybba has a name perhaps related to 'pybyr' meaning 'strong' also in Welsh.
Oppenheimer like many others gets confused by language. Language is a cultural trait, it isn't inherited like DNA markers. He might argue that 'north-central European' genetic markers were present in Britain before the Romans but he cannot have any idea what language or languages the possessors of these genetic markers spoke.
There is a phrase in the article about a "British underclass" described in Ine's laws. The wergild price of Britons was lower than that of the English, but the laws describe "Welshmen who prosper and own 5 hydes of land." This was quite a lot of land and its owner would have been an important person. There are also Welshmen who are described as "The King's horse-Welshmen" who seem to have had a special relationship to the king. To describe these as being an underclass would seem somewhat inaccurate, to describe them as being at a legal disadvantage compared to their English compatriots would be better.
Urselius 15:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia should refer to migration or invasion consistently. For their own reasons, brits like to refer to Roman/Norman invasions but refer to Saxon migration. Wikipedia should be harmonised and use one of the two terms consistently.
Not all things are amenable to regularisation. The Roman and Norman invasions were just that, and they were extensively recorded by contemporary historians. The way that large parts of Sub-Roman Britain became Anglo-Saxon England is rather more obscure. There doesn't seem to have been a single invasion, but even the multiple small invasions by Germanic war-bands described in the sources were recorded long after the events and some accounts may have more than a little legendary, rather than factual, content.
The changes of culture and language in lowland Britain were profound but the idea that a mass-migration of people from North Germany caused these changes has been challenged by both archaeological and genetic evidence in the past few decades. Therefore appropriateness the use of the word "migration" is also moot. Perhaps the term "Anglicisation" is the best catch-all title for the process.
Urselius 11:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The reference to Cunliffe, Iron Age Britain 1995:7 that read "in the same English regions 69% of male lines are still of aboriginal, pre-Celtic origin" has been edited to delete "pre-Celtic" by User:Zburh. Was this a correction to better reflect Cunliffe's assertion, or just a manipulation of the information?-- Wetman 19:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The reference in Bede, writing well over two centuries after the supposed time of Hengest, is based on Anglo-Saxon origin myths. The dates used by Bede are his rationalisation of an existing oral myth. These is no contemporary (fifth-century) evidence for the existence of Hengest. As an essentially legendary character from Anglo-Saxon myth, perhaps a section on Hengest would be better placed in a section on Anglo-Saxon beliefs and culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.157.20 ( talk) 18:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Should this article be retitled Post-Roman Britain? There are two reasons to consider this change - that the term "sub" is derogatory and that Post-Roman is more widely used. The former comes from the days when the cultural characteristics of the Roman period were seen as ideal but a more appreciative view is now often taken of the cultural characteristics of the following period. Comparing the number of search engine hits on the web for the two terms reveals that Post-Roman is used nearly 40 times as often as Sub-Britain. The latter is mainly used in archaeological contexts. I know that this is a poor measure of its relative importance but is indicative. Adresia ( talk) 11:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The article appeared in 1977 not 1993. Most of the hits on "sub-Roman Britain" appear shortly after this time and many are references to this paper. Both Post-Roman and Sub-Roman are now used with the former in the lead on Google Books and Google Scholar. Sub-Roman implies that Roman culture was better but this was not necessarily so for the majority of Britons. Adresia ( talk) 21:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Don't know where 1993 came from - you're right of course, it's much earlier. fluoronaut ( talk) 17:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The name for the period in the article on "History of England" is Post Roman! 88.105.250.69 ( talk) 21:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Support a possible move for the reasons given above. And in an archaeological sense, sub-x could refer to pre-x, which this is not, or "less than" x, which is the implication here. 173.66.211.53 ( talk) 22:37, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know of evidence for its existence in the post-Roman period? It was certainly an important entity in the pre-Roman period. It is shown on the British kingdoms map but on what basis? Adresia ( talk) 18:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Probably the main evidence in the LPRIA for the Durotriges is their coins. There is some written evidence for them in the Roman period but not after. Different maps (guesses) exist for the post roman period. 88.105.161.36 ( talk) 21:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Though Cunliffe's souce? Or did he infer that the Durotriges were a close-knit confederacy of smaller units from their coins alone? It's just that I was recently in a lecture with Mary Beard (Professor of Classics at Cambridge University) and she stated that pretty much everything people like Cunliffe say about tribal groupings prior to the Roman conquest is at best educated conjecture, and at worst mere fantasy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.155.12 ( talk) 17:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be about the History of Sub Roman Britain, NOT the History of academic squabbles concerning the history of Sub Roman Britain. This article would be great for a history student who want to find about academic disputes, but it is useless as a reference for a layman who wants a general idea of what happened between 400 and 700 AD in the UK.
To take only one glaring example of bad writing.
“Writing in Latin perhaps about AD 540, Gildas gives a preliminary account of the History of Britain but the earlier part is in error.” HOW, ABOUT WHAT “He castigates five rulers in western Britain - Constantine of Dumnonia, Aurelius Caninus, Vortipor of the Demetae, Cuneglassus and Maglocunus - for their sins.” WHICH SINS! “He also attacks the British clergy.” FOR WHAT! “He gives information on the British diet, dress and entertainment.” WHAT DOES HE SAY THEY ARE? “He writes that Britons were killed, emigrated or were enslaved but gives no idea of numbers of each type.” THIS IS THE BEST SENTENCE IN THE PARAGRAPH BUT IT IS AT LEAST HALF A WHINE THAT DILDAS GIVES NO NUMBERS.
Granted that the sources for this period are weak, but you have to say something. The whole article can’t be academic criticism. You NEED a narrative based one something then you can go into criticisms of the narrative, but with out that you don’t have shit. 96.26.177.229 ( talk) 01:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Looking through this page I am shocked by the lack of historical rigour applied to it. All of the narrative is based on incredibly weak evidence, much of which is mythical and written several centuries later, even though it is here presented as fact. The so-called nations on the map have little foundation in evidence - the sad fact is that the peoples who lived in Britain in this period did not draw lines on maps in neat ways that we like in the 21st century. Please please remember that Gildas may be our main source but he is limited on so many levels. Writers on this page have not realised that "what we know" and "what we would like to know" and "what people think would be a good idea to know" are all quite different things. Anyone who comes along claiming to have "the story" of Britain in the 5th and 6th centuries should pay serious attention to what has been said about the topic in the last 20 years, and not be attempting to cast Arthurian legend and pre-1990 Dark Age romanticism as unquestionable fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.133.16 ( talk) 21:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I was asked for some reason to say why I reverted a series of edits. [2] I was quite surprised to be sent such a message as this series of edits removed some well sourced and well founded points of view from the article, and some of the edit summaries even admitted that their sole purpose was to remove a specific point of view from the article, something we should not allow. This series of edits did not seem to be the result of any decision by editors on this talk page, and therefore do not seem to represent anything like the settled consensus for this article. Here are the reasons for the reverts:
That's it, I think I've covered everything. I'm a bit angry that I got a rather nasty note on my talk page when I was clearly replacing verifiably sourced information that had been removed by an editor who specifically stated in their edit summaries that they were removing these points of view because they did not agree with them and not because they were not supported by reliable sources. Alun ( talk) 12:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Here are some direct quotes relevant to what Oppenheimer says about "Anglo-Saxon" migration to England during the sub-Roman period, they are relevant to this edit.
I'm not concerned with the truth, I am concerned with including citable reliable sources accurately, and I am concerned with the casual removal of verifiable cited information just because it does not sit with the belief of any particular editor. Wikipedia does not exist to promote "facts" or "the truth", it exists to give all relevant notable points of view, this is the core of neutrality. The removal of this information was a direct breach of our neutrality policy, Oppenheimer does say this, removing it does not change that. I don't care if you disagree with Oppenheimer, I don't care if you want to add additional information that contradicts Oppenheimer, that would be good, it would make the article more neutral, but I do care that editors remove sources just because they don't like what they say. That makes me very angry. Alun ( talk) 17:23, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't see the connection
here. The sentence is saying that the study cannot find a statistically significant difference between North German samples and Danish samples collected, and so the researchers combined these samples and called them a single population North Germany/Denmark (NGD). Of course this is a "bad thing" because it means that Capelli et al. cannot distinguish between "Anglo-Saxon" migration and later Danish Viking migration. The study did not collect any Frisian samples at all, but they do include the Frisian samples collected by Weal et al. in 2002 in some of their statistical analyses. When they include these Frisian samples they find no significant statistical difference between these samples and the NGD samples, indicating that any difference between these samples and the NGD samples can be due to chance. On the other hand when they include the Frisian samples of Weal et al. in their principal components analysis they find that "The Frisian samples were more 'Continental' than any of the British samples, although they were somewhat closer to the British ones than the North German/Denmark sample". I assume that this edit is referring to the principal components analysis, but the sentence it has been included in is not referring to the PC analysis, nor is it referring to the similarities or differences between NGD samples and samples from Great Britain and Ireland, the sentence it has been included in was referring to the impossibility of distinguishing the North German and Danish samples. I cannot see the relevance of Capelli et al. not being able to distinguish between North German and Danish samples to the postion of Weal et al. Frisian samples on Capelli's principal components analysis, these observations are not related as far as I can see.
Alun (
talk)
06:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I think that the end of Roman Britain was caused by the Huns. It's logical. :-) -- Mazarin07 ( talk) 00:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
A quite novel theory. Interesting...-- 136.8.150.6 ( talk) 17:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
May I propose a list is created on this page listing the names of the principal settlements of the time in their Brythonic / Old Welsh names. I know there has been some controversy regarding the attribution of an alternate Welsh name to places presently within the bounds of England and this page would be a place where such a list could sit. What do Wikipædians think about this proposal? James Frankcom ( talk) 23:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
May I draw your attention to the article King of the Britons and the discussion started on its talk page? This stems partly from my recent move to edit out and prepare for deletion what I regard as a very misleading and inappropriate template - Template:Kings of the Britons - which had been added to the articles on Owain Glyndŵr, the two Llywelyns and other medieval Welsh kings and princes, as well as the giant Idris Gawr (!) and various early and sub-Roman leaders. The title "King of the Britons" had also been added to the info boxes and lead text. Your comments and, hopefully, support would be welcome. Enaidmawr ( talk) 00:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Do we have to use the word 'culture'? I suggest that the word 'society' has a place in an article like this. Keith-264 ( talk) 13:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why the consequences of the Plague of Justinian are not taken in due consideration when dealing with the end of the last descendants in Britain of Roman Britain. Here it is (if Morris' book is not enough!) another good reference: Little, Lester K., ed., Plague and the End of Antiquity: The Pandemic of 541–750, Cambridge, 2006. ISBN 0-521-84639-0. Wikipedia is made of contributions from many users: if you disagree, please ADD your data and DON'T ERASE information if well referenced, please. And, please again, don't erase without real reason a map showing the historical extention of non anglosaxon Britain in 500 AD.-- Paul0559 ( talk) 02:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your answer, Notuncurious. As you can see in the article there it is a section that deals with the fact that half the population of western Britain was killed by the Plague of Justinian. We are not dealing with extreme weather, but with something very very catastrophic. And don't forget that in those centuries a big plague was followed always by widespread famine and lack of newborns (so: no soldiers for the wars 20 years later, exactly when the last romanized cities of western Britain -like Bath- were conquered by the Anglosaxons!)....the Arab civilization in the Middle East, as a example, suffered a similar fate in the XIII century and never recovered since then. I write this to explain the importance of a huge plague, even if there are not precise statistical data & information about.
Anyway, feel free to do what you want with my contribution to the article: I don't want to be involved in edit wars or something similar. Best regards.-- Paul0559 ( talk) 03:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry for all this mess. Please, calm down. I am sure some impartial editor will understand that my edits about the Plague of Justinian were based on scholar books (and place in the article the reference to Little, Lester K., ed., Plague and the End of Antiquity: The Pandemic of 541–750, Cambridge, 2006. ISBN 0-521-84639-0. and the map showing the Welsh (as Anglosaxons called the Romano-British people) area in 500 AD. -- Paul0559 ( talk) 17:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I presume the map in question is from Grant Allen's book, which was first published I think in 1881. It might be useful in an article looking at the development of scholarship on this question, but it clearly can't be used in any way that suggests it is accurate. Dougweller ( talk) 19:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
{{
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: CS1 maint: date and year (
link)I am a commons editor, but I don'even dream of reaching the level of scholars & professional map editors.-- Paul0559 ( talk) 03:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Sincerely (and with all the respect for the Commons editor) I cannot put on the same level the map of the scholar Allen and the other map in the article done by user:Briangotts (File Britain 500 CE.png)
And, as I have written before, Allen's map is perfectly suited to show Sub-Roman Britain in 500 AD.
What I cannot understand well is why you accept uncritically the map Britain 500 CE.png.....Are you sure all the many borders are well done? And how the Commons editor who did the map was able to precisely define those borders if we lack detailed information from those centuries? At least the scholar Allen wrote on his map -with a serious approach- that the borders were approximate and left the area of the "Welsh" without borders inside. Indeed, I am going to try to edit a map on Commons about the last "romanized" british cities in the same year, but I don't even dream of pinpointing precise borders of Celtic/Romano-British/Anglosaxons kingdoms.....and of course I am no match for scholar's maps. A last salute.-- Paul0559 ( talk) 03:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to Dougweller for bringing this issue forward. The image was deleted from Scotland during the Roman Empire on the above grounds. However, I think it is has a purpose, and there is a paucity of suitable images, so I've restored it and added various caveats including "Created by Grant Allen and published in 1884, the names of the tribes and boundaries are indicative at best." If there is something more up-to-date please let me know. Ben Mac Dui 10:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
For clarification,
Regards, Notuncurious ( talk) 17:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Oppenheimer does not state that the people that lived in what is now England are Celtic, but Germanic people of Basque genetics that existed long before the Anglo-Saxon invasions and are related to the Belgae, whom he identifies as Germanic, and the people of the Frisia coasts. He postulates this because he does not believe that the Anglo-Saxon couldn't have changed the Brythonic language into a Germanic one. He also too umbrage with the fact that he was misquoted as stating that the English are Celtic. I added this information to the article but it was removed as an act of vandalism and thus I reinstated it. All the Celtic romanticists cannot just misquote Oppenheimer to suit their ends as that is unencyclopaedic. The Mummy ( talk) 13:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
The last half of the article is allegedly based on Oppenheimer's findings and yet it is a complete bastardization of his ideas and thus, whether it is too long or not, my revisions are justified. YOU removed relevent info because you are clearly biased towards the racist and nationalistic view that the English are derived from people that have always be here. I think Oppenheimer's view falls under this and thoroughly disagree with it, yet I think that misinterpreting his views is still wrong.
And bagpipes certainly are not only Celtic, by the way, and there is no evidence that they existed in the British isles before the 14th century. The Mummy ( talk) 16:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I have not read Oppenheimer, but I would have to agree with Noctuncurious's approach. The more and more you make statements about undo bias that come across as personal attacks, the more and more I am concerned about your motives for making these edits. A complete removal of factual information that may not be from your personally favored source would make the article misleading or perhaps biased in the totally opposite direction. The Mummy, please bring scholarly work forward to either support your own view, or dispute the previously represented position, otherwise your edits and approach to this page should be removed because they violate consensus, thank you. SADADS ( talk) 19:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I only have a bias for the facts, SADADS. Oppenheimer does not say that that the English are culturally Celtic, he says they are genetically related to Basques like the Britons, Frisians and other groups in Europe. The way the last paragraph was worded made it sound like Oppenheimer believes that the English are Celtic (or Brittonic to be more precise) when he does not. He states in his work that he believes that the area which is now England has been inhabited by a Germanic linguistic group before the Anglo-Saxon invasion. He believes that Celtic seperated from I.E. earlier than is presumed and he also believed that English broke away from P.Germ. earlier than is presumed.
You should either contain Oppenheimer's real theory or not mention him in relation to this topic at all. And I certainly do not have a bias towards his theory as I find it rather absurd; what I do object to is people misrepresent his theory in an encyclopaedia article. It seems to me that a lot of wikipedias have some sort of racialistic aversion to any suggestion that the English - whose language has the least Celtic loans than any of the Germanic languages spoken today, Icelandic included- are not Celtic and thus want to pervert Oppenheimer's theory to fit their own idea of how it should be. This is not good scholarship and is against the rules, whether you agree with them or not. Oppenheimer's theories do not state that a Celtic culture continued in Britain, he merely proposed the idea that the Welsh and English are both genetically similar to Basques, though he believes they both represent two different strands of Basgue genetics with a cline in the border lands, one for the Britons and one for the Germanic people which he believes lived here just after the Last Glacial Maximum. He believed that the Germanic influence in pre-England is more from North Germanic settlers than the later West Germanic incursion, although he also links these to the Germanic tribes in the Belgae confederacy and the coast of what is now Friesland. I do not agree with his view, however, but it should be included in this article rather than the weasel words that make it seem like he believes in a Celtic cultural survival. Infact, he even states that it is unlikely that the area which makes up most of England was ever Celtic due to the lack of Celtic traces in the English language and the fact that England only has a few Brittonic toponymes.
And I certainly do not have an anti-Celtic bias as I am a proud Gael myself, however, this is an encyclopedia and making up theories and attributing them to Dr. Oppenheimer is wrong and certainly against the rules. The Mummy ( talk) 23:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
No my violet reaction does not bring into question my motivation, it just shows my contempt for anti-encyclopedic revisions and the fact that my very relevant revision was reverted despite the fact that I explained that the theory purported at the end of the section ran contrary to the real views of Oppenheimer who does not believe in a Celtic continuity in the area which is now England. My reaction is besides the point, either you should reference Oppenheimer's real theory or you should not reference him at all.
I have made a compromise and have left much of the original text before my initial revision even though no sources where previded for it, unlike the segment I added.
And, I removed the Northumbrian smallpipe reference because A). bagpipes are not evidence of a Celtic survival as they are not Celtic in origin, B). the first Celts to use bagpipes in the British isles were the Irish who started this tradition in the 13th or 14th century C). the first reference to the instruments in Britain are from Chaucer who was English and D). many non-Celtic regions traditionally have bagpipes (and for that matter tartan) such as Scandinavia and the Slavic nations. That reference obviously came from the parallels between Northern England and Scotland, however, in Scotland the smallpipes are called Inglis pipes. The tradition of bagpipes, much like kilts in the modern sense, is not an ancient tradition and thus does not date back to the ancient Britons, Picts or Gaels who didn't use the instrument.
I sincerely apologise if you feel offended by some of my remarks and I will apologise for not making a discussion before my revision, even though I do not feel that a discussion was necessary as I merely corrected an erroneous passage of text. The Mummy ( talk) 00:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Any objections to the current logic behind the change Notuncurious? (I am not sure if we completely answered your objections, but I think The Mummy has a valid point
You make very good points, however, the section contained highly questionable content, as I demonstrated with the smallpipes, which are a modern instrument in the area and were first mention further to the south of Britain by Chaucer.
I do think that some editors are scholars, I am myself, however, the error in the text didn't seem like a scholarly error unless it was made by a scholar far outside of his field. I have encountered the same misinterpretation of Oppenheimer's view on Wikipedia and the internet before which strikes me as deliberate weaseling or vandalism which was unnoticed by the majority of editors on this article.
But now we are in, more or less, agreement. I should have discussed my changes first, however, these changes were needed because misusing theory of anyone does not fit with the criteria set out by Wikipedia. Having Oppenheimer's full theory clarifies what be believes, which is that the area which is now England has never been Celtic but Germanic in culture. He merely states that both groups have similar, but not the same, genetics from the Basques. I do not subscribe to his theory as he is not a geneticist (he is a paediatrician) and is using the Weale and Capelli studies as his basis. Now the Weale and Capelli studies show a majority of continental, or Anglo-Saxon genetics - a large majority in the area Weale studied and a smaller majority in all of England in Capelli's study - with less continental genetics under the Thames and to the west. This was put down to the influence of the traditionally Celtic areas in southern England such as Cornwall.
Oppenheimer's interpretation seemed very popular with the media but was, I find, absurd. However, as he made a major media splash, his views are still relevant if portrayed in their true light. The Mummy ( talk) 12:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to point out Weales - on which much of the sensationalist reporting and strange statistical speculation about population replacement (Haerke etc) is based - work is flawed as the line they take through Britain is no way representative of typical settlement patterns over the country, due to the viking eruption being focussed in that are and also only having a sample of seven towns. pehaps Haerkes work in the article should be balanced not just by further analysis of Weales work (which Oppenheimer does, although his conclusion is not necessarily affected by the defects in Weales work as much as Haerkes was) but by looking for other counts of Y and mitochondria and of autosomal types. 213.106.120.242 ( talk) 16:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
The following paragraph is out of place under "End of Roman Britain":
"Others may have lived in separate communities from those of the Anglo-Saxons, but under Anglo-Saxon rule. The laws of King Ethelbert of Kent, probably written in the early seventh century, make reference to a legal underclass known as laets who might represent British communities. There definitely is a British (wealh) underclass referred to in Ine of Wessex’s law code, written in the late seventh or early eighth centuries."
Under "Archeological Evidence": "In the Sub-Roman period there seems to have been a preference for using less durable materials than in the Roman period." sounds like PC thinking. Perhaps the inhabitants of Rio's favelas have a preference for living in shacks instead of houses with indoor plumbing and running water... If you don't want to say, or don't agree, that they had lost the ability to build in brick and stone, then perhaps "Buildings were constructed of less-durable materials than in the Roman period", or something similar.
Under "Population changes" "According to a new study, an apartheid-like system existed in early Anglo-Saxon England, which prevented the native British genes getting into the Anglo-Saxon population by restricting intermarriage and wiped out a majority of original British genes in favour of Germanic ones"
Although I admit I haven't read the book "Saxons, Vikings, and Celts", does this agree with Sykes?
161.11.121.245 ( talk) 13:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Paper at [3] Dougweller ( talk) 20:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I have tagged the article, as the first half is severely lacking in sources to substantiate the text.
I removed the insertion after the citation for 'Age of Arthur', as this refers to the usage of that term, rather than the subject of the article. I am sure that something could be said about Arthur, but not this way, and not much - as there is an article devoted to the legendary figure, and this sort of material would be better off dealt with there.
It is not uncommon for a text about post-Roman / pre-Norman Britain to have half-a-dozen pages about Arthur - if only to point out most of what we know is based on the the fiction of Geoffrey of Monmouth and Norman historical revisionism of Henry II. Whilst I am sure that some information has since been superceded, Lloyd Laing's "Celtic Britain" (Palladin, 1979) gives a concise account of what we know and how the legend developed. I have this text, as well as Geoffrey's book, the Anglo Saxon Chronicles, and numerous other books (although nothing that recent), and Patrick's account - if there is anything specific needing looking up, let me know. Mish ( talk) 09:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Anglo-Saxon migration comes after the end of Roman Britain, surely? The sequence should be:
Is it possible to reorganise this to follow the historical flow as much as possible (acknoweldging there is room for debate); at the moment the narrative is confused. Mish ( talk) 09:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
"Studies of Old English, P- and Q-Celtic and Latin have provided evidence for contact between the Britons, the Gaels, and the Anglo-Saxons. The general consensus is that Old English has little evidence of linguistic contact." Is there contact evidence or not? "England (except Cornwall and Cumbria) shows little evidence now of Celtic in its placenames. There are scattered Celtic placenames throughout, increasing towards the west. There are also Celtic river names and topographical names." How does the two last sentences fit the first?
Can someone who knows the subject sort this out? DeCausa ( talk) 19:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
"The withdrawal of Roman legions did not put an end to the Roman culture of the "lost province", which still remained part of the Roman cultural world, as Britons self-identified as Roman."
This is drivel. It makes my eyes bleed JF42 ( talk) 21:59, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
The Gewisse region has important historical information regarding this area. Does anyone have additional information on this?
Twillisjr ( talk) 16:30, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Do we need to identify unequivocally "British" kingdoms as "Celtic"? Reasons for doing so include the fact that most of their populations probably did speak something roughly ancestral to modern Welsh. Reasons for not doing so include Oppenheimer's Germanic theories (see discussion above) with the possibility of non-Celtic Belgic elements in the South-East at least, and the widespread use of Latin, which continued to be spoken as the prestige language even of the western kingdoms for centuries. That's leaving out the Irish element and whatever Pictish or other languages may have been relevant to the area. I suggest that giving a blanket description of these kingdoms as "Celtic" is un-necessary at best and mildly inappropriate at worst. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 09:50, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
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If I didn't know anything about the subject, I would assume that "sub-Roman Britain" meant Britain immediately before the Romans came (i.e. stratigraphically below it), rather than immediately after they left. According to the lede, it is derived from the inferior-relative-to-Roman pottery of the era, but this is unsourced and isn't expanded on in the rest of the article. Iapetus ( talk) 08:40, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
Huge chunks of this have been tagged for 'citation needed' and 'disputed' because no sources are listed and the statements are often controversial among the historical circles who study the period. Case in point - the plague victims' numbers. 50.111.63.192 ( talk) 03:40, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
This is unsourced, and I think is based on a misunderstanding somewhere along the line. St Tathan, also known as Tatheus, is credited with founding a church at the former Roman town of Caerwent, about 5 miles from Chepstow - but was unconnected with St Thaddaeus. Can anyone clarify this statement (added by a long-departed editor back in 2007), or should it simply be deleted? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 20:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)