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"Pamela Geller, who leads Stop Islamization of America, said the adverts were designed to help provide resources for Muslims who were fearful of leaving the faith."
- This article lacked a section describing its ideology, so I added it. Unfortunately, it is reverted/vandalized again and again by some users. - The first paragraph contains a lot of POV, pejorative language, without mentioning the large base of support the group has outside of PC academia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A442:3456:0:5453:8E5A:F119:44D ( talk) 00:38, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Below are some more recent sources I've gathered regarding the characterization of SOIA/AFDI.
Pamela Geller, a founder of the anti-Muslim group Stop Islamization of America..."
Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, who co-founded anti-Muslim group Stop Islamization of America..."
American bloggers Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, co-founders of anti-Muslim group, Stop Islamization of America,..."
flamboyant and unfiltered representative for the anti-Muslim far-right on the Internet." Next sentence say her group is the AFDI. Goes on to say the AFDI calls for "
discriminatory actions against Muslims". Also calls Geller anti-Muslim in this quote: "
The Anti-Defamation League, which Geller attacks regularly, is a frequent critic of her anti-Muslim activism." Refers again to the AFDI as anti-Muslim in saying: "
JCF’s contributions to anti-Muslim groups aren’t limited to the AFDI."
...Pamela Geller, an anti-Islamic activist whose American Freedom Defense Initiative has been designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
...siding with Pam Geller and her pro-Israel American Freedom Defense Initiative" (second NYPost uses "pro-Israel" in title)
Gellar is the co-founder of the group “Stop Islamization of America,” an anti-Islam group that aims to educate Americans on the religion’s “domination and expansionism.” The Southern Poverty Law Center, a nonprofit civil rights organization famous for defending victims of hate crimes, labeled Gellar’s organization a hate group.
...group known for being anti-Islam."
The American Freedom Defense Initiative, a conservative organization infamous for its controversial take against the Islamic faith..."
The American Freedom Defense Initiative is also known for its anti-Muslim stance, with the Southern Poverty Law Center describing Geller as "the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead," a description that she disputes."
After the MBTA ran pro-Palestinian ads in 2013, a pro-Israel group called the American Freedom Defense Initiative sought to run its own advertisements... The American Freedom Defense Initiative, which has been designated as anti-Islam by the Southern Poverty Law Center,..."
...but rather a pro-Israel organization... The Southern Poverty Law Center considers AFDI an “anti-Muslim” hate group."
From this, I think it's best to call the group pro-Israel, anti-Muslim/Islam and ascribe the "hate group" label to SPLC in the lead sentence. The sources seem to take this approach when describing the group, especially those published after the designation by the SPLC. Propose changing the lead as follows:
Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), also known as the American Freedom Defense Initiative, [1] is a anti-Muslim, [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] pro-Israel [8] [9] [10] American organization known primarily for its controversial, Islamophobic advertising campaigns. [11] The group has been described as extremist, [12] far-right [13] and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) lists SIOA as an anti-Muslim hate group. [9] [10] [14]
This seems like a balanced description to me. Let me know what you think. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 21:38, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Where is it that "racism" in the SIOA -- presumably a hatred of Semites and other peoples from regions of the world where Islam has historically predominated -- reflected in the facts presented in our article? As for "Islamophobic" versus "anti-Islamic", the latter is preferable because it doesn't presume those who oppose Islam, and particularly radical Islam, are nuts. Motsebboh ( talk) 03:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Pinging @ Roscelese, DrFleischman, Motsebboh, Binksternet, and Jason from nyc: (I think that's everyone)
Using Google Scholar (google news doesn't give as much description of the ads themselves, just the group and Geller) searching for "american freedom defense initiative" ads
, this is what I found:
At the time, San Francisco District Attorney George Gascon told the Associated Press, "these offensive ads serve no purpose than to denigrate our city's Arab and Muslim communities."" citing HuffPo.
...subway stations in New York displayed advertisements from the anti-Islamic American Freedom Defense Initiative"
In spring 2012 the American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI), an organization established by Pamela Geller, a leading figure in the Islamophobic global network,5 produced a series of national advertisements for buses, train stations, and billboards with the accompanying message..."
From San Francisco to Washington, D.C. to Detroit to Chicago to New York, anti-Muslim hate placards have recently appeared on government-owned transit systems in cities around the country. Anti-Muslim hate groups designed..."
Searching the same on Google Books (direct pages to quotes linked when possible), I get the following:
When charged with Islamophobia, its supports claim, "It's not Islamophobia. It's Islamorealism."
I tried not to be too picky or only look for look for books that upheld a certain view (which is why I gave you my search terms). I checked the publishers of books to make sure they weren't self-published. I think "Islamophobic" is pretty well supported by the the sources (especially the secondary textbook sources). Some call them anti-Muslim, and one calls them anti-Ismalic but these are rather synonymous with the current meaning of Islamophobia. The other sources just refer to the ads as hateful/controversial/etc. Given this, as well as the often quoted statement by Geller about Islambophobia/Islamorealism, it think it's safe to say that sources call the ads Islamophobic and that Geller has directly responded to this criticism. How about the following (same text, but more sources supporting description of ads):
Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), also known as the American Freedom Defense Initiative, [1] is a anti-Muslim, [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] pro-Israel [8] [9] [10] American organization known primarily for its controversial, Islamophobic advertising campaigns. [17] The group has been described as extremist, [18] far-right [13] and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) lists SIOA as an anti-Muslim hate group. [9] [10] [14]
I think this version is NPOV and accurately describes how sources discuss the ads, even if not everyone agrees with the terms being used. We must be faithful to the sources and give due weight. In this case, I think that means using "Islamophobic". EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 00:35, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
References
NYT
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page)....the other leading sources of anti-Muslim racism are... Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer's Stop Islamization of America...
In the Bay Area, more than 125 religious leaders of various faiths signed a statement in July denouncing the ads as "Islamophobic"
Geller heads a small but vocal extreme right-wing group, called Stop Islamization of America. cf. note 4 (p.374) SIOA is associated with Stop Islamization of Europe, an organization with branches in nearly a dozen countries (mostly in Western Europe), founded by an eponymous Danish group that opposes immigration of Muslims to Europe.
HateGroup
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page)....the other leading sources of anti-Muslim racism are... Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer's Stop Islamization of America...
In the Bay Area, more than 125 religious leaders of various faiths signed a statement in July denouncing the ads as "Islamophobic"
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)Stretching "Islamophobia" to include all concern or reasoned distrust of the supremacist elements of Islam is a polemic tactic. We can correct such a misuse if we value language over polemic. Standard construction in English would have a phobia be an irrational fear. Any dictionary will confirm that. Interestingly, Nathan lean, quoted in an article at the Atlantic, seems to support its use, although he sums up the criticism of that use very correctly: "Nathan Lean, author of The Islamophobia Industry, told me. “Critics of the term often lambast it on the basis of an etymological deficiency, insisting that it thwarts the possibility of critiquing Islam as a religion while simultaneously suggesting the presence of a mental disorder on the part of those who do." * [4]. I suggest avoiding the too-common use of the word "Islamophobia", to avoid being, intentionally or otherwise, any part of categorizing someone with reasoned discomfort as having an irrational fear. Only stop for a moment and consider why someone who promotes what another finds troubling might prefer to label that concern as a phobia. It is a tactic right out of the Ministry of Truth. Shall we be Winston Smith or Big Brother? (Hopefully neither, of course!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crwannall ( talk • contribs) 09:51, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
What about labelling the SIOA as "Anti-Islamization"? I vowed not to ever get involved in certain political Wikipedia articles, but reading this article, I just thought I'd pitch the idea. There are many parties out there that do support the SIOA, but would they ever be accepted as sources here? Food for thought... Israell ( talk) 03:55, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
I've removed a line about the murder of Sunando Sen as the source does not attribute the sentiments which motivated his murderer to the actions of SIOA in particular; noting that she murdered him "shortly after the ad campaign began" is synthesis (original research) without reliable sources drawing the connection. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 05:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Stop Islamization of America article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
"Pamela Geller, who leads Stop Islamization of America, said the adverts were designed to help provide resources for Muslims who were fearful of leaving the faith."
- This article lacked a section describing its ideology, so I added it. Unfortunately, it is reverted/vandalized again and again by some users. - The first paragraph contains a lot of POV, pejorative language, without mentioning the large base of support the group has outside of PC academia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A442:3456:0:5453:8E5A:F119:44D ( talk) 00:38, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Below are some more recent sources I've gathered regarding the characterization of SOIA/AFDI.
Pamela Geller, a founder of the anti-Muslim group Stop Islamization of America..."
Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, who co-founded anti-Muslim group Stop Islamization of America..."
American bloggers Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, co-founders of anti-Muslim group, Stop Islamization of America,..."
flamboyant and unfiltered representative for the anti-Muslim far-right on the Internet." Next sentence say her group is the AFDI. Goes on to say the AFDI calls for "
discriminatory actions against Muslims". Also calls Geller anti-Muslim in this quote: "
The Anti-Defamation League, which Geller attacks regularly, is a frequent critic of her anti-Muslim activism." Refers again to the AFDI as anti-Muslim in saying: "
JCF’s contributions to anti-Muslim groups aren’t limited to the AFDI."
...Pamela Geller, an anti-Islamic activist whose American Freedom Defense Initiative has been designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
...siding with Pam Geller and her pro-Israel American Freedom Defense Initiative" (second NYPost uses "pro-Israel" in title)
Gellar is the co-founder of the group “Stop Islamization of America,” an anti-Islam group that aims to educate Americans on the religion’s “domination and expansionism.” The Southern Poverty Law Center, a nonprofit civil rights organization famous for defending victims of hate crimes, labeled Gellar’s organization a hate group.
...group known for being anti-Islam."
The American Freedom Defense Initiative, a conservative organization infamous for its controversial take against the Islamic faith..."
The American Freedom Defense Initiative is also known for its anti-Muslim stance, with the Southern Poverty Law Center describing Geller as "the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead," a description that she disputes."
After the MBTA ran pro-Palestinian ads in 2013, a pro-Israel group called the American Freedom Defense Initiative sought to run its own advertisements... The American Freedom Defense Initiative, which has been designated as anti-Islam by the Southern Poverty Law Center,..."
...but rather a pro-Israel organization... The Southern Poverty Law Center considers AFDI an “anti-Muslim” hate group."
From this, I think it's best to call the group pro-Israel, anti-Muslim/Islam and ascribe the "hate group" label to SPLC in the lead sentence. The sources seem to take this approach when describing the group, especially those published after the designation by the SPLC. Propose changing the lead as follows:
Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), also known as the American Freedom Defense Initiative, [1] is a anti-Muslim, [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] pro-Israel [8] [9] [10] American organization known primarily for its controversial, Islamophobic advertising campaigns. [11] The group has been described as extremist, [12] far-right [13] and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) lists SIOA as an anti-Muslim hate group. [9] [10] [14]
This seems like a balanced description to me. Let me know what you think. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 21:38, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Where is it that "racism" in the SIOA -- presumably a hatred of Semites and other peoples from regions of the world where Islam has historically predominated -- reflected in the facts presented in our article? As for "Islamophobic" versus "anti-Islamic", the latter is preferable because it doesn't presume those who oppose Islam, and particularly radical Islam, are nuts. Motsebboh ( talk) 03:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Pinging @ Roscelese, DrFleischman, Motsebboh, Binksternet, and Jason from nyc: (I think that's everyone)
Using Google Scholar (google news doesn't give as much description of the ads themselves, just the group and Geller) searching for "american freedom defense initiative" ads
, this is what I found:
At the time, San Francisco District Attorney George Gascon told the Associated Press, "these offensive ads serve no purpose than to denigrate our city's Arab and Muslim communities."" citing HuffPo.
...subway stations in New York displayed advertisements from the anti-Islamic American Freedom Defense Initiative"
In spring 2012 the American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI), an organization established by Pamela Geller, a leading figure in the Islamophobic global network,5 produced a series of national advertisements for buses, train stations, and billboards with the accompanying message..."
From San Francisco to Washington, D.C. to Detroit to Chicago to New York, anti-Muslim hate placards have recently appeared on government-owned transit systems in cities around the country. Anti-Muslim hate groups designed..."
Searching the same on Google Books (direct pages to quotes linked when possible), I get the following:
When charged with Islamophobia, its supports claim, "It's not Islamophobia. It's Islamorealism."
I tried not to be too picky or only look for look for books that upheld a certain view (which is why I gave you my search terms). I checked the publishers of books to make sure they weren't self-published. I think "Islamophobic" is pretty well supported by the the sources (especially the secondary textbook sources). Some call them anti-Muslim, and one calls them anti-Ismalic but these are rather synonymous with the current meaning of Islamophobia. The other sources just refer to the ads as hateful/controversial/etc. Given this, as well as the often quoted statement by Geller about Islambophobia/Islamorealism, it think it's safe to say that sources call the ads Islamophobic and that Geller has directly responded to this criticism. How about the following (same text, but more sources supporting description of ads):
Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), also known as the American Freedom Defense Initiative, [1] is a anti-Muslim, [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] pro-Israel [8] [9] [10] American organization known primarily for its controversial, Islamophobic advertising campaigns. [17] The group has been described as extremist, [18] far-right [13] and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) lists SIOA as an anti-Muslim hate group. [9] [10] [14]
I think this version is NPOV and accurately describes how sources discuss the ads, even if not everyone agrees with the terms being used. We must be faithful to the sources and give due weight. In this case, I think that means using "Islamophobic". EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 00:35, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
References
NYT
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page)....the other leading sources of anti-Muslim racism are... Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer's Stop Islamization of America...
In the Bay Area, more than 125 religious leaders of various faiths signed a statement in July denouncing the ads as "Islamophobic"
Geller heads a small but vocal extreme right-wing group, called Stop Islamization of America. cf. note 4 (p.374) SIOA is associated with Stop Islamization of Europe, an organization with branches in nearly a dozen countries (mostly in Western Europe), founded by an eponymous Danish group that opposes immigration of Muslims to Europe.
HateGroup
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page)....the other leading sources of anti-Muslim racism are... Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer's Stop Islamization of America...
In the Bay Area, more than 125 religious leaders of various faiths signed a statement in July denouncing the ads as "Islamophobic"
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)Stretching "Islamophobia" to include all concern or reasoned distrust of the supremacist elements of Islam is a polemic tactic. We can correct such a misuse if we value language over polemic. Standard construction in English would have a phobia be an irrational fear. Any dictionary will confirm that. Interestingly, Nathan lean, quoted in an article at the Atlantic, seems to support its use, although he sums up the criticism of that use very correctly: "Nathan Lean, author of The Islamophobia Industry, told me. “Critics of the term often lambast it on the basis of an etymological deficiency, insisting that it thwarts the possibility of critiquing Islam as a religion while simultaneously suggesting the presence of a mental disorder on the part of those who do." * [4]. I suggest avoiding the too-common use of the word "Islamophobia", to avoid being, intentionally or otherwise, any part of categorizing someone with reasoned discomfort as having an irrational fear. Only stop for a moment and consider why someone who promotes what another finds troubling might prefer to label that concern as a phobia. It is a tactic right out of the Ministry of Truth. Shall we be Winston Smith or Big Brother? (Hopefully neither, of course!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crwannall ( talk • contribs) 09:51, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
What about labelling the SIOA as "Anti-Islamization"? I vowed not to ever get involved in certain political Wikipedia articles, but reading this article, I just thought I'd pitch the idea. There are many parties out there that do support the SIOA, but would they ever be accepted as sources here? Food for thought... Israell ( talk) 03:55, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
I've removed a line about the murder of Sunando Sen as the source does not attribute the sentiments which motivated his murderer to the actions of SIOA in particular; noting that she murdered him "shortly after the ad campaign began" is synthesis (original research) without reliable sources drawing the connection. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 05:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)