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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Well done article, folks. Ingolfson ( talk) 09:46, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The AIDS epidemic isn't discussed as a legacy of Stonewall. But see "The AIDS epidemic: Social dimensions", chapter "High-risk groups in the United States", starting at p. 21, which starts at Stonewall and goes on to bathhouse infection rates. Even And the Band Played On and Sexual Ecology cover this. -- John Nagle ( talk) 19:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The theme song for The Howdy Doody Show actually reuses the melody of the earlier " Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay", as the Howdy Doody entry in Wikipedia mentions. Dick Kimball ( talk) 10:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the PNG is clearer to read and more aesthetically pleasing. Thoughts? -- Moni3 ( talk) 18:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why the introduction says "American gays and lesbians in the 1950s and 1960s faced a legal system more anti-homosexual than those of some Warsaw Pact countries." Was the Eastern block known for its particularly severe anti-homosexuality laws? I'm not an expert, but from what I know, the Eastern Block was sometimes even quicker in repealing anti-homosexuality laws. For example, the GDR made a beginning with decriminalising homosexuality as early as in the 1950s, much earlier than West Germany, and legalised it altogether in 1968, one year before its capitalist counterpart. Please take in mind that communist regimes were ideologically atheist, which meant that, unlike their Western Block counterparts, they had no religious foundations that made them unconfortable with homosexuality. So what's the point of this (no doubt correct) statement? Steinbach ( talk) 09:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Revisit: I was finally able to check out David Carter's book from the library, and wanted to revisit this for the benefit of anyone watching the article who encounters further removal of this statement. From Carter, p. 14 - 15:
While McCarthyism encouraged the toughening of laws toward homosexuals because they were believed to be security risks, America's Puritan tradition was producing hysteria over child molestation. Homosexuals were believed to be the main culprits. As the right-wing demonization of homosexuals proceeded apace, the negative qualities attributed to them overlapped until it became a common assumption that any homosexual man or woman was so beyond the pale that he or she must also partake of the most forbidden ideological fruit of all: communism. Homosexuals thus became handy scapegoats for both of these postwar obsessions. Antihomosexual laws were correspondingly made more severe.
States passed new laws that either stiffened the penalties for homosexual sex or created new categories to criminalize. For example, California governor Earl Warren thought the sex offender problem was so serious that in 1949 he convened a special session of the state legislature to deal with the issue. That session passed laws that increased the penalties for sodomy and invented a new crime: loitering in a public toilet. The name of anyone convicted of spending too much time in a toilet was registered with the state. Twenty-nine states enacted new sexual psychopath laws and/or revised existing ones, and homosexuals were commonly the laws' primary targets. In almost all states, professional licenses could be revoked or denied on the basis of homosexuality, so that professionals could lose their livelihoods.
By 1961 the laws in America were harsher on homosexuals than those in Cuba, Russia, or East Germany, countries the United States criticized for the despotic ways. <here is where the chunk of text is quoted in Note 1> In Pennsylvania and California sex offenders could be locked in a mental institution for life, and in seven states they could be castrated. At California's Atascadero State Hospital, known soon after its opening as "Dachau for Queers," men convicted of consensual sodomy were, as authorized by 1941 law, given electrical and pharmacological shock therapy, castrated, and lobotomized. Gay Law author William N. Esridge Jr. summed up the legal status of homosexuals at the beginning of the 1960s: "The homosexual ... was smothered by law."
Nor were transvestites spared. In New York State an old antilabor statute, passed in the nineteenth century to suppress tenant farmers who donned disguises to demonstrate against their landlords, was dusted off to use against men and women who dressed in the clothes of the opposite sex. In practice, New York police used the guideline that any person wearing fewer than three articles of clothing appropriate to their sex was, according to subsection 4 of section 240.35 of the New York Penal Code, "masked ... by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration" and thus subject to arrest.
-- Moni3 ( talk) 22:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
On the 40th anniversary of Stonewall, just after midnight, Sunday morning, June 28th, 2009, a police raid on the newly opened Rainbow Lounge in Fort Worth, Texas took place. The police were accused of excessive force in the raid, with one young man suffering head and brain injuries while in police custody. The timing of the raid to co-incide with the 40th anniversary of Stonewall is tacky at best.
The fact that events like this still happen in smaller more conservative cities like Fort Worth 40 years after they stopped in the major cities like New York needs to be somehow documented. Otherwise, people reading this article will simply thing these are historical events that aren't still happending today.
Is there a way to incorporate this information in your Legacy section?
If not, is there a better place to put that information?
If so, can someone please volunteer to write that section?
Thanks! Markg65 ( talk) 17:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to let the authors and contributers of this article know that it has made an impact and this article has been used by the media for education. At an event surrounding the Rainbow Lounge Raids in Fort Worth, several members of the media (newspaper and tv) said they didn't know about Stonewall and used Wikipedia to read up on it! So, I think that is a big compliment to your work and efforts on this article. Markg65 ( talk) 16:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to re-iterate to the authors and contributers of this article that due to the Rainbow Lounge Raid in Fort Worth in June 2009, this article has had a big impact and has been cited a lot locally in Fort Worth and Dallas newspapers and blogs. Also, at the protests in Fort Worth, a lot of younger LGBT people had never heard of Stonewall. They were referred to this article for further information in the handouts at the protests. At the Fort Worth City Council meeting, several councilmembers said they didn't know what Stonewall was about and they were referred to the Wikipedia article. So, your efforts have done a lot of good. Thanks again, Mark Markg65 ( talk) 18:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I am not a wiki savvy user. I do frequent Wikipedia for my own personnal research and for paper research, which technically I'm not allowed to do. Anyway, in my history book, there was a mention of Stonewall and being a gay person myself decided to look it up on Wikipedia. I read this entire article, it was quite useful to me, and I was moved, and glad to learn more about GLBT history and how it is still affecting people today. I'm very glad to know that the police were defeated by "those fairy faggots." Just goes to show you that gays are not just a bunch of wimps. Thank you everyone for taking the time to write this article, and thank you everyone in general for devoting your time to this marvolous website.
-Anonymous 1:35 AM November 7 2009
Our local Fort Worth Pride is coming up in October. We were thinking about have some of the colored plastic bracelets made up embossed with something like "Stonewall 40th Anniversary 1969 - 2009." What would be a good color for Stonewall that would be most representative of the Gay Liberation movement circa 1969? (Lavender?) Multi-color is cost prohibitive (like $1 versus $.15) Any suggestions on the text? Since you are experts on Stonewall, we would value your input so we can pick the most appropriate color and text. I would also be glad to mail them out for free to the authors and contributers of this article. Thanks, Mark Markg65 ( talk) 18:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
"In 1952, the American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) as a sociopathic personality disturbance." This is incorrect, the proper classification for the so called disorder was not "sociopathic." Please actually read the DSM before posting these claims. 75.217.60.119 ( talk) 08:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure if these are notable, or should even be included, but there are two fallout incidents. In El Paso, the next day, a gay couple kissed at Chico's Tacos and the police threated to arrest them for being gay (a law which was struck down by the US Supreme Court several years ago). In Dallas, on July 10/11 (night around midnight), the TABC raided another gay bar, even though there was supposed to be a moratorium on raids until the investigation was completed. Markg65 ( talk) 23:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I'm trying to translate this article into Turkish, but in the "Greenwich Village" section of this article I came across a rather vague sentence which I don't entirely understand. In the third paragraph of that section it says : "...and some of those lawyers kicked back their fees to the arresting officer." Could someone please tell me, in plain, layman's English, what the hell that means lol? Thanks in advance, just trying to educate the world about the plight of us homosexuals... 82.45.234.136 ( talk) 19:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello again! Another point: "main draw" (in the "Stonewall Inn" section) - doesn't that sound rather colloquial? Whatever the case, I'm not 100% sure as to what that means, either. Clarify please :-D. 82.45.234.136 ( talk) 22:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time and effort in translating this article into Turkish. In areas of the world where being LGBT can get you a prison sentence or even the death penalty, this is a very important work, and will bring a message of hope, especially to young LGBT Turks who read it. Markg65 ( talk) 01:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I didn't notice it when I read the article, but that writer had a point, if kickback is still used as a two word past tense verb it should be removed. I don't think any encyclopedia would use that style of writing, and there is a legal term for that process that should be used. 75.217.60.119 ( talk) 08:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
It's in the EL section. If the report is unnecessary, feel free to revert. APK that's not my name 16:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
User:NoPetrol restored the changes they'd made earlier, undoing User:Rebecca's revert because of "insufficient explanation". I'm reverting again. Here's my explanation, which I hope is sufficient:
All in all, I think the original wording was more careful and made more sense. Given the amount of scrutiny this article received as a Featured Article, I think that major changes—not just reverts—demand sufficient explanation. Rivertorch ( talk) 04:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Well done article, folks. Ingolfson ( talk) 09:46, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The AIDS epidemic isn't discussed as a legacy of Stonewall. But see "The AIDS epidemic: Social dimensions", chapter "High-risk groups in the United States", starting at p. 21, which starts at Stonewall and goes on to bathhouse infection rates. Even And the Band Played On and Sexual Ecology cover this. -- John Nagle ( talk) 19:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The theme song for The Howdy Doody Show actually reuses the melody of the earlier " Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay", as the Howdy Doody entry in Wikipedia mentions. Dick Kimball ( talk) 10:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the PNG is clearer to read and more aesthetically pleasing. Thoughts? -- Moni3 ( talk) 18:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why the introduction says "American gays and lesbians in the 1950s and 1960s faced a legal system more anti-homosexual than those of some Warsaw Pact countries." Was the Eastern block known for its particularly severe anti-homosexuality laws? I'm not an expert, but from what I know, the Eastern Block was sometimes even quicker in repealing anti-homosexuality laws. For example, the GDR made a beginning with decriminalising homosexuality as early as in the 1950s, much earlier than West Germany, and legalised it altogether in 1968, one year before its capitalist counterpart. Please take in mind that communist regimes were ideologically atheist, which meant that, unlike their Western Block counterparts, they had no religious foundations that made them unconfortable with homosexuality. So what's the point of this (no doubt correct) statement? Steinbach ( talk) 09:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Revisit: I was finally able to check out David Carter's book from the library, and wanted to revisit this for the benefit of anyone watching the article who encounters further removal of this statement. From Carter, p. 14 - 15:
While McCarthyism encouraged the toughening of laws toward homosexuals because they were believed to be security risks, America's Puritan tradition was producing hysteria over child molestation. Homosexuals were believed to be the main culprits. As the right-wing demonization of homosexuals proceeded apace, the negative qualities attributed to them overlapped until it became a common assumption that any homosexual man or woman was so beyond the pale that he or she must also partake of the most forbidden ideological fruit of all: communism. Homosexuals thus became handy scapegoats for both of these postwar obsessions. Antihomosexual laws were correspondingly made more severe.
States passed new laws that either stiffened the penalties for homosexual sex or created new categories to criminalize. For example, California governor Earl Warren thought the sex offender problem was so serious that in 1949 he convened a special session of the state legislature to deal with the issue. That session passed laws that increased the penalties for sodomy and invented a new crime: loitering in a public toilet. The name of anyone convicted of spending too much time in a toilet was registered with the state. Twenty-nine states enacted new sexual psychopath laws and/or revised existing ones, and homosexuals were commonly the laws' primary targets. In almost all states, professional licenses could be revoked or denied on the basis of homosexuality, so that professionals could lose their livelihoods.
By 1961 the laws in America were harsher on homosexuals than those in Cuba, Russia, or East Germany, countries the United States criticized for the despotic ways. <here is where the chunk of text is quoted in Note 1> In Pennsylvania and California sex offenders could be locked in a mental institution for life, and in seven states they could be castrated. At California's Atascadero State Hospital, known soon after its opening as "Dachau for Queers," men convicted of consensual sodomy were, as authorized by 1941 law, given electrical and pharmacological shock therapy, castrated, and lobotomized. Gay Law author William N. Esridge Jr. summed up the legal status of homosexuals at the beginning of the 1960s: "The homosexual ... was smothered by law."
Nor were transvestites spared. In New York State an old antilabor statute, passed in the nineteenth century to suppress tenant farmers who donned disguises to demonstrate against their landlords, was dusted off to use against men and women who dressed in the clothes of the opposite sex. In practice, New York police used the guideline that any person wearing fewer than three articles of clothing appropriate to their sex was, according to subsection 4 of section 240.35 of the New York Penal Code, "masked ... by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration" and thus subject to arrest.
-- Moni3 ( talk) 22:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
On the 40th anniversary of Stonewall, just after midnight, Sunday morning, June 28th, 2009, a police raid on the newly opened Rainbow Lounge in Fort Worth, Texas took place. The police were accused of excessive force in the raid, with one young man suffering head and brain injuries while in police custody. The timing of the raid to co-incide with the 40th anniversary of Stonewall is tacky at best.
The fact that events like this still happen in smaller more conservative cities like Fort Worth 40 years after they stopped in the major cities like New York needs to be somehow documented. Otherwise, people reading this article will simply thing these are historical events that aren't still happending today.
Is there a way to incorporate this information in your Legacy section?
If not, is there a better place to put that information?
If so, can someone please volunteer to write that section?
Thanks! Markg65 ( talk) 17:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to let the authors and contributers of this article know that it has made an impact and this article has been used by the media for education. At an event surrounding the Rainbow Lounge Raids in Fort Worth, several members of the media (newspaper and tv) said they didn't know about Stonewall and used Wikipedia to read up on it! So, I think that is a big compliment to your work and efforts on this article. Markg65 ( talk) 16:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to re-iterate to the authors and contributers of this article that due to the Rainbow Lounge Raid in Fort Worth in June 2009, this article has had a big impact and has been cited a lot locally in Fort Worth and Dallas newspapers and blogs. Also, at the protests in Fort Worth, a lot of younger LGBT people had never heard of Stonewall. They were referred to this article for further information in the handouts at the protests. At the Fort Worth City Council meeting, several councilmembers said they didn't know what Stonewall was about and they were referred to the Wikipedia article. So, your efforts have done a lot of good. Thanks again, Mark Markg65 ( talk) 18:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I am not a wiki savvy user. I do frequent Wikipedia for my own personnal research and for paper research, which technically I'm not allowed to do. Anyway, in my history book, there was a mention of Stonewall and being a gay person myself decided to look it up on Wikipedia. I read this entire article, it was quite useful to me, and I was moved, and glad to learn more about GLBT history and how it is still affecting people today. I'm very glad to know that the police were defeated by "those fairy faggots." Just goes to show you that gays are not just a bunch of wimps. Thank you everyone for taking the time to write this article, and thank you everyone in general for devoting your time to this marvolous website.
-Anonymous 1:35 AM November 7 2009
Our local Fort Worth Pride is coming up in October. We were thinking about have some of the colored plastic bracelets made up embossed with something like "Stonewall 40th Anniversary 1969 - 2009." What would be a good color for Stonewall that would be most representative of the Gay Liberation movement circa 1969? (Lavender?) Multi-color is cost prohibitive (like $1 versus $.15) Any suggestions on the text? Since you are experts on Stonewall, we would value your input so we can pick the most appropriate color and text. I would also be glad to mail them out for free to the authors and contributers of this article. Thanks, Mark Markg65 ( talk) 18:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
"In 1952, the American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) as a sociopathic personality disturbance." This is incorrect, the proper classification for the so called disorder was not "sociopathic." Please actually read the DSM before posting these claims. 75.217.60.119 ( talk) 08:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure if these are notable, or should even be included, but there are two fallout incidents. In El Paso, the next day, a gay couple kissed at Chico's Tacos and the police threated to arrest them for being gay (a law which was struck down by the US Supreme Court several years ago). In Dallas, on July 10/11 (night around midnight), the TABC raided another gay bar, even though there was supposed to be a moratorium on raids until the investigation was completed. Markg65 ( talk) 23:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I'm trying to translate this article into Turkish, but in the "Greenwich Village" section of this article I came across a rather vague sentence which I don't entirely understand. In the third paragraph of that section it says : "...and some of those lawyers kicked back their fees to the arresting officer." Could someone please tell me, in plain, layman's English, what the hell that means lol? Thanks in advance, just trying to educate the world about the plight of us homosexuals... 82.45.234.136 ( talk) 19:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello again! Another point: "main draw" (in the "Stonewall Inn" section) - doesn't that sound rather colloquial? Whatever the case, I'm not 100% sure as to what that means, either. Clarify please :-D. 82.45.234.136 ( talk) 22:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time and effort in translating this article into Turkish. In areas of the world where being LGBT can get you a prison sentence or even the death penalty, this is a very important work, and will bring a message of hope, especially to young LGBT Turks who read it. Markg65 ( talk) 01:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I didn't notice it when I read the article, but that writer had a point, if kickback is still used as a two word past tense verb it should be removed. I don't think any encyclopedia would use that style of writing, and there is a legal term for that process that should be used. 75.217.60.119 ( talk) 08:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
It's in the EL section. If the report is unnecessary, feel free to revert. APK that's not my name 16:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
User:NoPetrol restored the changes they'd made earlier, undoing User:Rebecca's revert because of "insufficient explanation". I'm reverting again. Here's my explanation, which I hope is sufficient:
All in all, I think the original wording was more careful and made more sense. Given the amount of scrutiny this article received as a Featured Article, I think that major changes—not just reverts—demand sufficient explanation. Rivertorch ( talk) 04:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)