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I fail to see the extrene significance of this stolen base such that it should be singled out and explained in detail here. Boston's comeback in the series was remarkable but it seems unlikely that one stolen base was the difference. I am removing it; discuss here before reverting. -- feitclub 15:49, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
No argument from me. The 2004 ALCS is hardly a milestone in the history of the stolen base (though perhaps the other way around), and thus the anecdote detracts from the article's universality. It was apparently inserted on 7 May by 4.224.195.116, and subsequent revisers like me simply edited rather than remove vestigial paragraphs. I wouldn't mind seeing the Germany Schaefer anecdote go away as well, or at least be trimmed significantly. -- BlueMoonlet 20:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed the link to that series as well. Was wondering what it was doing here. Doctofunk 21:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I added the second anecdote about Schaefer stealing 1st. Funny stories. Its too bad no one is that daring anymore. But back on topic! I'm wondering if my story, which I got from Cobb's autobiography, isn't the same story as in the first instance. Its sort of coincedental that Davey Jones was on third both times, I think. I mean, Schaefer was clearly a nut but what are the chances of Jones being on third both times? Also, would Honus Wagner be a better example of dead-ball base stealers than Clyde Milan? I'd never even heard of Milan before and Wagner stole upwards of 250 more bases in his career than Milan did. Just my opinion though. -- mgm41887 18 Jun 2005
That's my suspicion about the Schaefer story also. If you want to fix it, maybe doing some research to get the story right, that would be great. A more streamlined version of that paragraph would be less objectionable. I created a stub for Milan, which may make it more clear why I mentioned him. Wagner would also be a fine example, though his single-season totals were not as high. -- BlueMoonlet 15:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately I don't know who put in the first Schaefer story, so I really can't be sure if they're the same story, but honestly, what are the odds that Davey Jones would be the runner both times? How many times could Schaefer possibly have been in that situation? One instance of Schaefer stealing first should be enough and I got mine right out of Cobb's autobiography, so if you want to take either one out, I won't have any problem. Also, should some mention maybe be made of Scott Podsednik as an up and coming base-stealer? He's sort of reviving the art of stealing a ton of bases. I know the White Sox are mentioned as a team, but who else on the team steals bases en masse like Podsednik? -- mgm41887 1:55 12 Jul 2005
I took out Germany altogether, leaving the story in general terms only. If you want to replace the particular characters from your book, I wouldn't object. I also revamped the "small ball" paragraph, not that my version needs to be final. My opinion is that it's probably best not to write too much about current players, but to wait until we have the perspective of history. -- BlueMoonlet 15:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree about both Schaefer and Podsednik. Give Podsednik a few years at least to see if he remains consistent. Schaefer is a barely known, but interesting, character in baseball history and since stealing first base has been illegal for about 85 years because of his antics, it really isn't even relevant any more. Oh, and if you are a fan of baseball from the Dead Ball era and Ty Cobb in general, his book is great, and if you don't believe his story, check Al Stump's version. It truly is a wealth of information. Mgm41887 06:20, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I read somewhere, but can't find it on his page (or here), that Joe Morgan was first player to HR 200 & steal 500. Can somebody confirm? Trekphiler 08:53, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I read somewhere Eddie Cuthbert (Philadelphia Keystones) stole the first base in pro ball, in 1863. Can somebody confirm? Trekphiler 10:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps there could be mention of this technique whereby the baserunner is picked off by the catcher rather than the pitcher. It is one of the dangers of taking a secondary lead.
- 69.33.45.186 00:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
If you read the first paragraph of the article, you would not know that the runner is not credited with a steal if it's uncontested. This requires a scorekeeper's judgment, but if the pitcher and catcher make no attempt to throw out a runner who is stealing a base, then the runner is not credited with a stolen base (SB). Mack2 03:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the article could say a bit more about why a dropped-third would be scored as a 4-3 putout? Skids 15:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Double steal redirects here, but the article says almost nothing about double steals, and does not mention at all the very rare triple steal... Chubbles 02:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the 2005 White Sox should be mentioned, considering that they were 5th in the Majors in HOME RUNS. Mickeyg13 07:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is a foul fly ball caught for an out, the steal doesn't count. The runner must return to his time-of-pitch base, and he can't tag up since the ball is foul, and he will likely be thrown out before returning to the time-of-pitch base anyway. Is any/all of this correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.33.215 ( talk) 02:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, except that theoretically, if he were unbelievably fast or if the defense were utterly terrible, he would potentially be able to return to his original base, tag up, and then advance via a sacrifice fly. Of course I doubt that particular scenario has ever happened in the Majors without some errors involved. Mickeyg13 05:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I came across this expression and thought I'd look here for an explanation of what it means.
Fair enough. I have no idea what "home plate" means, so I click on that, and I read:
Now I'm confused. Why would the pitcher be "delivering the ball to home plate"? Does this mean he is actually throwing the ball for a batsman to hit? Just a couple of words somewhere would make all the difference! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.127.9 ( talk) 01:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Stolen bases aren't always during pitches. See rule 10.07, which begins: The official scorer shall credit a stolen base to a runner whenever the runner advances one base unaided by a hit, a putout, an error, a force-out, a fielder’s choice, a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk, subject to the following... (I'm not sure why the rule's wording omits obstruction, catcher interference, hit-by-pitch and a couple of other rare ways described in rule 5.09, that a runner can advance without stealing.) For example, a runner could steal a base when the catcher or some other fielder makes a careless high-arcing throw back to the pitcher. SEppley ( talk) 01:12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I just finished adding a section on the history of scoring stolen bases. I'm not sure this is desirous, but my source only goes up to the early 1990s. This section should not be regarded as definitively complete. LonelyBeacon ( talk) 14:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
According to this article, a player reaching first by a dropped third strike is credited with a stolen base. Has that ever been the case? Is this the case now? LonelyBeacon ( talk) 18:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Um, LonelyBeacon, the article actually said this before your edit :
A batter can "steal first base" only by successfully running to first base (without being tagged or thrown out) in rare circumstances following an uncaught third strike; such a play avoids an " out" and gains a baserunner, but it is recorded as a strikeout plus a passed ball or wild pitch rather than a steal. (I added the bold and italics to the significant phrase.)
But, if you found it confusing then it could probably use improvement. I think I've improved it :
While it is not recorded as a "steal", in a practical sense a batter can be said to "steal first base" by successfully running to first base (without being tagged or thrown out) in rare circumstances following a dropped third strike; the rarely-seen play avoids an " out" and gains a baserunner. Statistically, it is recorded as a strikeout plus a passed ball or wild pitch, and a "stolen base" statistic does not accrue.
Regarding the history of the "Uncaught third strike rule", personally I just don't know if the play was ever recorded as a "steal" statistic. I'd guess not. -- MySuperiorInEveryWay ( talk) 15:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The section on stealing first base claims Segura was "not technically safe" while on first base. However, rule 7.08(i) implies he was safe, since his intention when running the bases in reverse order was neither to confuse the defense nor to make a travesty of the game. On the other hand, Major League Baseball decided during the week after the game that the comments after rules 7.01 and 7.08(a) indicate running back to first base was illegal. But that opinion seems a bit dubious. The comment after 7.01 applies if the runner runs backward after the pitcher assumes his pitching position, which means the official opinion looks retrospectively at the pitcher rather than considering only what the pitcher is currently doing. (In other words, after Segura stole second, the next pitch to Braun locked Segura from ever retreating back to first.) The comment after 7.08(a) appears to apply only if the runner has left the base path. SEppley ( talk) 01:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
By the way, the video of the play shows that Segura was tagged right after he lost contact with second base on his way toward first base, but the umpire failed to call him out. The video also shows that after Segura reached first and paused there, he started walking into foul territory toward his dugout and his first base coach physically stopped him. The umpire could have called Segura out for coach's interference. More interesting: Is Segura the first player to be caught stealing a base he'd already stolen? (After he "stole" first, he attempted to steal second again but was foiled.) SEppley ( talk) 00:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I have been tightening up the wording of this article, with a little reorganization. The biggest problem remaining is that history and personalities are sprinkled throughout the article, and Background should not be separate from the section on the evolution of the rule. I would create a section Notorious base-stealers but it is hard to separate the mentions from the context elsewhere, such as steals of home. Thoughts? Spike-from-NH ( talk) 13:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm surprised this article makes no mention of Cool Papa Bell and any other Negro League stars that helped popularize the stolen base. – Maky « talk » 05:45, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
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@ Deathshand24: The Atlantic League has always put showmanship first, hence the mid-season rule change that a batter can advance to first on an uncaught pitch. However, if the batter does not advance until seeing the misplay, it must be scored a wild pitch or a passed ball, as the case may be. If so, it does not belong in this article, any more than if I refer to starting my car as a "steal of first base." Spike-from-NH ( talk) 15:43, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Hacía falta la corrección de que los pitchers solo pueden virar dos veces hacia base de corredor y después solo el carácter puede lanzar 2806:103E:2:5E33:FCF5:3571:24DD:4B13 ( talk) 12:04, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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I fail to see the extrene significance of this stolen base such that it should be singled out and explained in detail here. Boston's comeback in the series was remarkable but it seems unlikely that one stolen base was the difference. I am removing it; discuss here before reverting. -- feitclub 15:49, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
No argument from me. The 2004 ALCS is hardly a milestone in the history of the stolen base (though perhaps the other way around), and thus the anecdote detracts from the article's universality. It was apparently inserted on 7 May by 4.224.195.116, and subsequent revisers like me simply edited rather than remove vestigial paragraphs. I wouldn't mind seeing the Germany Schaefer anecdote go away as well, or at least be trimmed significantly. -- BlueMoonlet 20:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed the link to that series as well. Was wondering what it was doing here. Doctofunk 21:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I added the second anecdote about Schaefer stealing 1st. Funny stories. Its too bad no one is that daring anymore. But back on topic! I'm wondering if my story, which I got from Cobb's autobiography, isn't the same story as in the first instance. Its sort of coincedental that Davey Jones was on third both times, I think. I mean, Schaefer was clearly a nut but what are the chances of Jones being on third both times? Also, would Honus Wagner be a better example of dead-ball base stealers than Clyde Milan? I'd never even heard of Milan before and Wagner stole upwards of 250 more bases in his career than Milan did. Just my opinion though. -- mgm41887 18 Jun 2005
That's my suspicion about the Schaefer story also. If you want to fix it, maybe doing some research to get the story right, that would be great. A more streamlined version of that paragraph would be less objectionable. I created a stub for Milan, which may make it more clear why I mentioned him. Wagner would also be a fine example, though his single-season totals were not as high. -- BlueMoonlet 15:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately I don't know who put in the first Schaefer story, so I really can't be sure if they're the same story, but honestly, what are the odds that Davey Jones would be the runner both times? How many times could Schaefer possibly have been in that situation? One instance of Schaefer stealing first should be enough and I got mine right out of Cobb's autobiography, so if you want to take either one out, I won't have any problem. Also, should some mention maybe be made of Scott Podsednik as an up and coming base-stealer? He's sort of reviving the art of stealing a ton of bases. I know the White Sox are mentioned as a team, but who else on the team steals bases en masse like Podsednik? -- mgm41887 1:55 12 Jul 2005
I took out Germany altogether, leaving the story in general terms only. If you want to replace the particular characters from your book, I wouldn't object. I also revamped the "small ball" paragraph, not that my version needs to be final. My opinion is that it's probably best not to write too much about current players, but to wait until we have the perspective of history. -- BlueMoonlet 15:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree about both Schaefer and Podsednik. Give Podsednik a few years at least to see if he remains consistent. Schaefer is a barely known, but interesting, character in baseball history and since stealing first base has been illegal for about 85 years because of his antics, it really isn't even relevant any more. Oh, and if you are a fan of baseball from the Dead Ball era and Ty Cobb in general, his book is great, and if you don't believe his story, check Al Stump's version. It truly is a wealth of information. Mgm41887 06:20, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I read somewhere, but can't find it on his page (or here), that Joe Morgan was first player to HR 200 & steal 500. Can somebody confirm? Trekphiler 08:53, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I read somewhere Eddie Cuthbert (Philadelphia Keystones) stole the first base in pro ball, in 1863. Can somebody confirm? Trekphiler 10:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps there could be mention of this technique whereby the baserunner is picked off by the catcher rather than the pitcher. It is one of the dangers of taking a secondary lead.
- 69.33.45.186 00:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
If you read the first paragraph of the article, you would not know that the runner is not credited with a steal if it's uncontested. This requires a scorekeeper's judgment, but if the pitcher and catcher make no attempt to throw out a runner who is stealing a base, then the runner is not credited with a stolen base (SB). Mack2 03:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the article could say a bit more about why a dropped-third would be scored as a 4-3 putout? Skids 15:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Double steal redirects here, but the article says almost nothing about double steals, and does not mention at all the very rare triple steal... Chubbles 02:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the 2005 White Sox should be mentioned, considering that they were 5th in the Majors in HOME RUNS. Mickeyg13 07:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is a foul fly ball caught for an out, the steal doesn't count. The runner must return to his time-of-pitch base, and he can't tag up since the ball is foul, and he will likely be thrown out before returning to the time-of-pitch base anyway. Is any/all of this correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.33.215 ( talk) 02:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, except that theoretically, if he were unbelievably fast or if the defense were utterly terrible, he would potentially be able to return to his original base, tag up, and then advance via a sacrifice fly. Of course I doubt that particular scenario has ever happened in the Majors without some errors involved. Mickeyg13 05:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I came across this expression and thought I'd look here for an explanation of what it means.
Fair enough. I have no idea what "home plate" means, so I click on that, and I read:
Now I'm confused. Why would the pitcher be "delivering the ball to home plate"? Does this mean he is actually throwing the ball for a batsman to hit? Just a couple of words somewhere would make all the difference! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.127.9 ( talk) 01:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Stolen bases aren't always during pitches. See rule 10.07, which begins: The official scorer shall credit a stolen base to a runner whenever the runner advances one base unaided by a hit, a putout, an error, a force-out, a fielder’s choice, a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk, subject to the following... (I'm not sure why the rule's wording omits obstruction, catcher interference, hit-by-pitch and a couple of other rare ways described in rule 5.09, that a runner can advance without stealing.) For example, a runner could steal a base when the catcher or some other fielder makes a careless high-arcing throw back to the pitcher. SEppley ( talk) 01:12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I just finished adding a section on the history of scoring stolen bases. I'm not sure this is desirous, but my source only goes up to the early 1990s. This section should not be regarded as definitively complete. LonelyBeacon ( talk) 14:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
According to this article, a player reaching first by a dropped third strike is credited with a stolen base. Has that ever been the case? Is this the case now? LonelyBeacon ( talk) 18:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Um, LonelyBeacon, the article actually said this before your edit :
A batter can "steal first base" only by successfully running to first base (without being tagged or thrown out) in rare circumstances following an uncaught third strike; such a play avoids an " out" and gains a baserunner, but it is recorded as a strikeout plus a passed ball or wild pitch rather than a steal. (I added the bold and italics to the significant phrase.)
But, if you found it confusing then it could probably use improvement. I think I've improved it :
While it is not recorded as a "steal", in a practical sense a batter can be said to "steal first base" by successfully running to first base (without being tagged or thrown out) in rare circumstances following a dropped third strike; the rarely-seen play avoids an " out" and gains a baserunner. Statistically, it is recorded as a strikeout plus a passed ball or wild pitch, and a "stolen base" statistic does not accrue.
Regarding the history of the "Uncaught third strike rule", personally I just don't know if the play was ever recorded as a "steal" statistic. I'd guess not. -- MySuperiorInEveryWay ( talk) 15:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The section on stealing first base claims Segura was "not technically safe" while on first base. However, rule 7.08(i) implies he was safe, since his intention when running the bases in reverse order was neither to confuse the defense nor to make a travesty of the game. On the other hand, Major League Baseball decided during the week after the game that the comments after rules 7.01 and 7.08(a) indicate running back to first base was illegal. But that opinion seems a bit dubious. The comment after 7.01 applies if the runner runs backward after the pitcher assumes his pitching position, which means the official opinion looks retrospectively at the pitcher rather than considering only what the pitcher is currently doing. (In other words, after Segura stole second, the next pitch to Braun locked Segura from ever retreating back to first.) The comment after 7.08(a) appears to apply only if the runner has left the base path. SEppley ( talk) 01:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
By the way, the video of the play shows that Segura was tagged right after he lost contact with second base on his way toward first base, but the umpire failed to call him out. The video also shows that after Segura reached first and paused there, he started walking into foul territory toward his dugout and his first base coach physically stopped him. The umpire could have called Segura out for coach's interference. More interesting: Is Segura the first player to be caught stealing a base he'd already stolen? (After he "stole" first, he attempted to steal second again but was foiled.) SEppley ( talk) 00:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I have been tightening up the wording of this article, with a little reorganization. The biggest problem remaining is that history and personalities are sprinkled throughout the article, and Background should not be separate from the section on the evolution of the rule. I would create a section Notorious base-stealers but it is hard to separate the mentions from the context elsewhere, such as steals of home. Thoughts? Spike-from-NH ( talk) 13:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm surprised this article makes no mention of Cool Papa Bell and any other Negro League stars that helped popularize the stolen base. – Maky « talk » 05:45, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
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@ Deathshand24: The Atlantic League has always put showmanship first, hence the mid-season rule change that a batter can advance to first on an uncaught pitch. However, if the batter does not advance until seeing the misplay, it must be scored a wild pitch or a passed ball, as the case may be. If so, it does not belong in this article, any more than if I refer to starting my car as a "steal of first base." Spike-from-NH ( talk) 15:43, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Hacía falta la corrección de que los pitchers solo pueden virar dos veces hacia base de corredor y después solo el carácter puede lanzar 2806:103E:2:5E33:FCF5:3571:24DD:4B13 ( talk) 12:04, 24 April 2023 (UTC)