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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Steven Hassan's CV reflects his unreliability as a source for Wikipedia. See [1] He claims that he is a recipient of the "Jerusalem Medal" presented to him by "Nahum Itzkovitz, Director General of the Israel Ministry of Social Affairs and Services, 2010." However, no such medal exists as an award presented by any arm of the Israeli government. Hassan was simply one of the experts consulted by the Israel Ministry of Social Affairs during their process of development regarding policies about destructive cults. See https://culteducation.com/reference/general/AnExaminationOfThePhenomenonOfCultsInIsrael.pdf Both my name and Steven Hassan are listed as experts consulted by the ministry team. All of the experts consulted received a gift from Nahum Itzkovitz, which was a kind of metal coin finished in bronze mounted within a wood display, it says Jerusalem on it, but it is not a medal, award or anything other than a souvenir. Hassan lists it under "Honors" calling it a medal. It is not. See https://freedomofmind.com/gift-of-jerusalem-medal/
This is one example of the ridiculous way Hassan conflates his CV and embellishes his history and acheivements.
In his CV Hassan also claims "Instructor at Harvard Law School Trial Advocacy program 2017." However, this was only a workshop and Hassan isn't listed anywhere. See [2] [type=3&eid=ARA43J23sprJ9AxahILF40grWGFPVukR9v_3A8xZBwvOCGrahMTjnpAr3g7845dsqYwGlx0ZJH7nR786&__xts__[0]=68.ARBWAp6L7vTYPIPSaW5Kgcn_U4svl6z3NgNoSMr9GKdBGJeksSmnZrLdrq-kYlrCMR2ICXk86n7Nj-MzohGW_0umkJ4CT0gdQetmrax11L8rqUplguW_ULPDAYXLv1JxX01Fq5Hn0hZ4SniyVehNJZNnVj_-NpwXUvgTXTMOLQXVx0exqzxmE1Si58qsT4Kss_1VQums8NndqrJvPXzZyyTLwwXSx7uaSFj3GhifMbTpNTP3jlYUA2Hmft5k7xO-QhyCZvrfjQ7DgUjACokk1q114KqSIornoKg0EjOeoXvBk-VRW-r2AuzXTdSnelxOMj2y2qL_tK-cPHArC2SvX35D5] And see [3] He apparently volunteered to do something for the event and attended. But he has never been paid staff or an "instructor" at Harvard.
His bio might state, "Steven Hassan attended a Harvard Law School workshop in 2017." But is attending a workshop really noteworthy, other than mentioning the name of "Harvard Law School"?
Hassan also claims within his CV that he is a "Member of The Program in Psychiatry and the Law at Massachusetts Mental Health Center, A Teaching Hospital of Harvard Medical School."
However, the letter Hassan posts is not from Harvard Medical School. See https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Edited-Confirmation-of-4th-year-psychiatry-residents-harvard-medical-2.pdf
Another letter Hassan posted cites him as a "valued presenter," not faculty, not an "instructor." See https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Peteet-letter-for-Hassan.pdf
It's laudable that Steven Hassan volunteers his time to help out doing some classroom presentations. But they are not at "Harvard Medical School." And what is not laudable is using such presentations as the basis to claim that he is somehow an "instructor" at Harvard Medical School. He does seem to be using the name of Harvard repeatedly to burnish his CV, but the closest he has actually come to Harvard Medical School is a hospital affiliated with the school and a workshop sponsored by Harvard Law School.
His Bio can correctly state, "Steven Hassan has done volunteer presentations to classes at a teaching hospital associated with Harvard Medical School." But is that really notable, other than the name of Harvard, for a Wikipedia bio? Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:27, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Hassan claims that He "rose to the rank of assistant director of the Church at their National Headquarters, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions." But there are no meaningful citations to support this claim other than Hassan's website and the website of his friend Anton Hein, who runs another website called Apologetics Index. In fact, Hassan was a fund raising van driver according to numerous accounts. He was never a high ranking leader in the Unification Church. A high ranking official of the church would not be a van driver as Hassan was immediately before he was deprogrammed. He seems to keep changing his story and embellishing it here. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:49, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Hassan has been a volunteer speaker. He was not paid as a professional instructor, so this is misleading. None of the supporting end notes support this conclusion and are instead claims essentially made by Hassan to promote himself, though his bio, publisher, etc. There is no official statement or evidence from Harvard to support these claims.
Hassan has never taught at "Harvard Medical School," but rather was a volunteer speaker for a class, apparently invited by an official instructor who actually taught this class within a hospital, which is affiliated with Harvard. This is not the same as being either an instructor and/or speaking at Harvard Medical School. Hassan had no genuine instructor/teacher status.
This is a letter Hassan has posted online supposedly confirming his claimed instructor status at Harvard Medical School. However, note the letterhead, this not the letterhead of Harvard Medical School.
The bio sentence must be corrected to reflect the actual facts.
It might correctly read -- Hassan was a volunteer speaker for a class within Longwood Hospital, which is a Harvard-affiliated teaching hospital. He also has been a volunteer speaker at Brigham and Women’s at Longwood.
See http://www.harvardlongwoodpsychiatry.org/about/partneringinstitutions.html
This official website explains in some detail the Harvard-affiliated status of Longwood. But again, this is a hospital affiliated with Harvard and NOT Harvard Medical School. These distinctions must be made if this bio is going to be accurate and fact based.
Volunteer speaking is not usually included in Wikipedia bios, but if it is, it must be factually correct. No puffery, which conflates volunteer speaking as somehow conferring professional "instructor" or "teacher" status, which is a paid position. This bio must not incorrectly state the facts or mislead readers that any presentation done by Hassan took place at "Harvard Medical School," which it did not and is both a false claim and inappropriate. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:13, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
There have been edits recently to this bio eliminating balance and misleading readers. Hassan has only been a volunteer classroom speaker at a hospital associated with Harvard Medical School. He has never been paid to instruct and has no genuine professional teaching status at Harvard. Please note that all the citations are Hassan's own self promotion through Tedx, his webiste and other unreliable sources, such as Apologetics Index, run by Anton Hein, who is an associate of Hassan. Hassan certainly misled the "Daily Beast" regarding his supposed status at Harvard, which has been minimal and only as a volunteer. Wikipedia must not allow Hassan to use its platform for self-promotion and misleading puffery. Michael Langone's criticism of Hassan's methodology has also been deleted. This is not a balanced bio and it contains false and/or misleading statements, which cannot be objectively supported according to Wikipedia guidelines. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
It seems relevant to point out that being a volunteer speaker for a class or a few classes does not confer any official "instructor" or "teacher" status. Claiming to be a teacher and/or instructor infers that you somehow have paid professional status. It is my understanding that Steven Hassan has neither. Using Wikipedia to make such exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims of self importance is not appropriate here. Specifically, being a volunteer speaker for a class at a hospital associated with Harvard Medical (but not Harvard Medical School itself) and appearing as a volunteer speaker for another hospital. It's nice that Hassan does presentations at times for free, but that doesn't confer upon him any professional paid teaching status at either hospital. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
Steven Hassan was invited by a teacher to talk to his class. This was not an "instructor" position and did not take place at "Harvard Medical School," but rather a hospital affiliated with Harvard. This is a conflated claim used to trade on the name of Harvard. Wikipedia must not allow people to use a biogrophy to make self-serving and false claims for self promotional purposes. Hassan does this all the time. For example, he claims on his Linkedin page that he received an award from Israel, but only actually was given a souvenir gift from an Israeli official. I received the same gift, but do not claim it as an "award" on my CV. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
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Pichpich (
talk)
19:34, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Can we add something about this? https://twitter.com/CultExpert/status/1279890726885695488 Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:43, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Harold the Sheep: Since you're the one who tagged the article as COI back in September, [9] please make some sort of note here on the talk page to elaborate (who, how much, which content, etc.). ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
In 1995, Michael Langone questioned Hassan's "humanistic counseling approach." Langone suggested that Hassan's intervention method "runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly" and "thereby manipulating the client."with the two edit summaries "I deleted the paragraph attributed to me, Michael Langone, because (a) the critique made 30 years ago is not valid today and (b) the summary of the critique was not accurate." and "I am MIchael Langone, the person quoted in this paragraph. I deleted the paragraph because (a) it is dated and no longer accurate and (b) the paragraph wasn't even an accurate summary of what I said 32 years ago.
At a bare minimum, the information should have already been properly dated. If Langone said something in 1995, the article should have already clearly explain that he said it in 1995. The entire crit. section is sourced to old sources. While subtle, this is a BLP issue. Attribution requires context, and the age of a source does matter. Grayfell ( talk) 03:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Many recent edits to this article have added generalized anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric that is not specific to this BLP subject. The purpose seems to frame the voice in this article by attributing another subject (e.g., anti-deprogramming) to this person. The particular over-reaching sections are "Deprogramming and exit counseling" and "Criticism". See WP:PODIUM. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
(clarification: these 2 subsections have been started in response to Grorp's claim at the start of this section, that Many recent edits to this article have added generalized anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric that is not specific to this BLP subject. The purpose seems to
frame the voice in this article by attributing another subject (e.g., anti-deprogramming) to this person. The particular over-reaching sections are "Deprogramming and exit counseling" and "Criticism".
The block quote also addresses Grorp's concern expressed below in his "Some notes" section about not being able to access this particular source.
Here is the passage from p. 401 of Violence and New Religious Movements used in the Criticism section. It is clearly specific to the article subject:
For another example, see the writings of Steven Hassan (1988, 1994), an ex-Unificationist who underwent coercive deprogramming and later became a bona fide degreed counselor and who describes himself as once a proponent and practitioner of the coercive type. Later Hassan publically repudiated the coercive variety and turned to a "gentler" form, which he calls "strategic intervention therapy," though he still maintains that the targeted groups are inherently "destructive." With Hassan's nonviolent intervention technique, however, one wonders how many members of NRMs would willingly enter into such "discussions" with the foreknowledge that the "counselor's" entire purpose is not to ascertain their religious sincerity or their full understanding of the extent of their spiritual decisions but rather is to convince them to abandon their faith. (Recall that the "counselor's" client is not the NRM member but rather someone else who hired the "counselor.")
Harold the Sheep ( talk) 02:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
(in no particular order)
I could probably dig (and say) more, but that's all the time I allocated to this project today. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Dumping ground? I started this thread and you responded
This is nonsense, so I went through and gave you some examples. And you say you want order but put your response above mine, contrary to best practices in WP:Talk page guidelines. Insulting other editors will get you nowhere fast. Try again. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 22:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
According to Steven Hassan's account of his departure from the Unification Church ("Moonies") he was "deserted," not quite so dramatically "deprogrammed."
In their book "Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults" (Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1980) authors James and Marcia Rudin relate the following account. "Steve is bitter when he remembers how quickly the church deserted him after his automobile accident. 'I deeply believed the group was a loving family that cared about its members. As soon as I was seriously injured and could no longer collect funds or recruit, The Family called my satanic real family. The Moonies couldn't get rid of me fast enough'" (page 38).
See https://archive.org/details/prisonorparadise00rudi
So this was not quite such a dramatic deprogramming as Hassan relates today. But rather after the church dumped him he was "bitter" and probably much more easily persuaded by former members that the church was bad.
Also, given this narrative it's hard to believe that Hassan was really a high ranking member, but rather simply a regular fund raiser and van driver. He hardly seems like a national leader working closely with Rev. Moon.
The book states, "Yet one midnight in the spring of 1976 the Family deserted Steve when he rammed his car into the back of a truck on the Baltimore Beltway after seventy-two continuous hours of fund raising" (page 38).
Hassan apparently was a regular member working long hours on a mobile fund raising team. A common job at that time within the Unification Church and not a lofty leadership position. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 13:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Please change "Joe went to the store" to "Joe went to the gym". Here is a source for that. http://joegoes.com/gymtime.html The reason is because thus-and-such.
Task complete. See following 2 sections.
▶ I am Grorp ◀
19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
The claim, "By his own account, he rose to the rank of assistant director, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions" must be deleted. Citations are not credible and include only Hassan's website and another website closely aligned with him. There is no independent, reliable and/or credible source cited.
Contrary to this claim Hassan appears to have been a regular member that worked long hours fund raising and recruiting, rather than occupying a prominent high ranking national position with direct access to Rev. Moon. There is no reason to include this claim in the bio.
In the book "Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults," By James and Marcia Rudin, Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1980 on page 38 it states, "Yet one midnight in the spring of 1976 the Family deserted Steve when he rammed his car into the back of a truck on the Baltimore Beltway after seventy-two continuous hours of fund raising."
Why would a prominent high ranking national leader be doing such work, for such long hours and then be so quickly dumped? Doesn't make any sense, unless he was a regular member assigned to a mobile fund raising team. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 15:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Task complete. See following section.
▶ I am Grorp ◀
19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. Asked and answered. |
![]() | Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
"By his own account, he rose to the rank of assistant director, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions."
This false claim is not supported. The citation is wrong. There is nothing about Steven Hassan being "assistant director" or that he ever "met with Sun Myung Moon" in the book "Prison or Paradise" by James and Marcia Rudin.
Quite the contrary, the book indicates he was only a fund raiser and recruiter with no mention of anything else.
This false, unsupported, must be deleted from the bio. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 16:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
no mention of anything else", page 37 of Rudin's book says "Steve Hassan, a former Unification-Church high official who was a national leader of CARP". The other claim (about meeting Moon) is unnecessary, and I removed it along with the apologeticsindex citation. I have made an edit accordingly. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Task complete.
▶ I am Grorp ◀
19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue related to this talk page.
▶ I am Grorp ◀
03:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. Requester has been blocked from this page. |
Is it not historically relevant and important to include that in 1976 Steven Hassan was "deserted" by the Unification Church? And that he was no longer a member of the church at the time of his "deprogramming"?
The book "Prison or Paradise" records these facts historically quoting Hassan directly and the book is cited as a credible source elsewhere in this bio. Doesn't this established fact add meaningful historical context to the "deprogramming"? Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 16:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
There are 3 archives for this talk page:
I don't know how 8 & 9 got created, nor how to get them back into an appropriate sequence. If anyone knows how to do this (technical-wise), please can you repair the issue? Thanks. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Steven Hassan's CV reflects his unreliability as a source for Wikipedia. See [1] He claims that he is a recipient of the "Jerusalem Medal" presented to him by "Nahum Itzkovitz, Director General of the Israel Ministry of Social Affairs and Services, 2010." However, no such medal exists as an award presented by any arm of the Israeli government. Hassan was simply one of the experts consulted by the Israel Ministry of Social Affairs during their process of development regarding policies about destructive cults. See https://culteducation.com/reference/general/AnExaminationOfThePhenomenonOfCultsInIsrael.pdf Both my name and Steven Hassan are listed as experts consulted by the ministry team. All of the experts consulted received a gift from Nahum Itzkovitz, which was a kind of metal coin finished in bronze mounted within a wood display, it says Jerusalem on it, but it is not a medal, award or anything other than a souvenir. Hassan lists it under "Honors" calling it a medal. It is not. See https://freedomofmind.com/gift-of-jerusalem-medal/
This is one example of the ridiculous way Hassan conflates his CV and embellishes his history and acheivements.
In his CV Hassan also claims "Instructor at Harvard Law School Trial Advocacy program 2017." However, this was only a workshop and Hassan isn't listed anywhere. See [2] [type=3&eid=ARA43J23sprJ9AxahILF40grWGFPVukR9v_3A8xZBwvOCGrahMTjnpAr3g7845dsqYwGlx0ZJH7nR786&__xts__[0]=68.ARBWAp6L7vTYPIPSaW5Kgcn_U4svl6z3NgNoSMr9GKdBGJeksSmnZrLdrq-kYlrCMR2ICXk86n7Nj-MzohGW_0umkJ4CT0gdQetmrax11L8rqUplguW_ULPDAYXLv1JxX01Fq5Hn0hZ4SniyVehNJZNnVj_-NpwXUvgTXTMOLQXVx0exqzxmE1Si58qsT4Kss_1VQums8NndqrJvPXzZyyTLwwXSx7uaSFj3GhifMbTpNTP3jlYUA2Hmft5k7xO-QhyCZvrfjQ7DgUjACokk1q114KqSIornoKg0EjOeoXvBk-VRW-r2AuzXTdSnelxOMj2y2qL_tK-cPHArC2SvX35D5] And see [3] He apparently volunteered to do something for the event and attended. But he has never been paid staff or an "instructor" at Harvard.
His bio might state, "Steven Hassan attended a Harvard Law School workshop in 2017." But is attending a workshop really noteworthy, other than mentioning the name of "Harvard Law School"?
Hassan also claims within his CV that he is a "Member of The Program in Psychiatry and the Law at Massachusetts Mental Health Center, A Teaching Hospital of Harvard Medical School."
However, the letter Hassan posts is not from Harvard Medical School. See https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Edited-Confirmation-of-4th-year-psychiatry-residents-harvard-medical-2.pdf
Another letter Hassan posted cites him as a "valued presenter," not faculty, not an "instructor." See https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Peteet-letter-for-Hassan.pdf
It's laudable that Steven Hassan volunteers his time to help out doing some classroom presentations. But they are not at "Harvard Medical School." And what is not laudable is using such presentations as the basis to claim that he is somehow an "instructor" at Harvard Medical School. He does seem to be using the name of Harvard repeatedly to burnish his CV, but the closest he has actually come to Harvard Medical School is a hospital affiliated with the school and a workshop sponsored by Harvard Law School.
His Bio can correctly state, "Steven Hassan has done volunteer presentations to classes at a teaching hospital associated with Harvard Medical School." But is that really notable, other than the name of Harvard, for a Wikipedia bio? Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:27, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Hassan claims that He "rose to the rank of assistant director of the Church at their National Headquarters, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions." But there are no meaningful citations to support this claim other than Hassan's website and the website of his friend Anton Hein, who runs another website called Apologetics Index. In fact, Hassan was a fund raising van driver according to numerous accounts. He was never a high ranking leader in the Unification Church. A high ranking official of the church would not be a van driver as Hassan was immediately before he was deprogrammed. He seems to keep changing his story and embellishing it here. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:49, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Hassan has been a volunteer speaker. He was not paid as a professional instructor, so this is misleading. None of the supporting end notes support this conclusion and are instead claims essentially made by Hassan to promote himself, though his bio, publisher, etc. There is no official statement or evidence from Harvard to support these claims.
Hassan has never taught at "Harvard Medical School," but rather was a volunteer speaker for a class, apparently invited by an official instructor who actually taught this class within a hospital, which is affiliated with Harvard. This is not the same as being either an instructor and/or speaking at Harvard Medical School. Hassan had no genuine instructor/teacher status.
This is a letter Hassan has posted online supposedly confirming his claimed instructor status at Harvard Medical School. However, note the letterhead, this not the letterhead of Harvard Medical School.
The bio sentence must be corrected to reflect the actual facts.
It might correctly read -- Hassan was a volunteer speaker for a class within Longwood Hospital, which is a Harvard-affiliated teaching hospital. He also has been a volunteer speaker at Brigham and Women’s at Longwood.
See http://www.harvardlongwoodpsychiatry.org/about/partneringinstitutions.html
This official website explains in some detail the Harvard-affiliated status of Longwood. But again, this is a hospital affiliated with Harvard and NOT Harvard Medical School. These distinctions must be made if this bio is going to be accurate and fact based.
Volunteer speaking is not usually included in Wikipedia bios, but if it is, it must be factually correct. No puffery, which conflates volunteer speaking as somehow conferring professional "instructor" or "teacher" status, which is a paid position. This bio must not incorrectly state the facts or mislead readers that any presentation done by Hassan took place at "Harvard Medical School," which it did not and is both a false claim and inappropriate. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:13, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
There have been edits recently to this bio eliminating balance and misleading readers. Hassan has only been a volunteer classroom speaker at a hospital associated with Harvard Medical School. He has never been paid to instruct and has no genuine professional teaching status at Harvard. Please note that all the citations are Hassan's own self promotion through Tedx, his webiste and other unreliable sources, such as Apologetics Index, run by Anton Hein, who is an associate of Hassan. Hassan certainly misled the "Daily Beast" regarding his supposed status at Harvard, which has been minimal and only as a volunteer. Wikipedia must not allow Hassan to use its platform for self-promotion and misleading puffery. Michael Langone's criticism of Hassan's methodology has also been deleted. This is not a balanced bio and it contains false and/or misleading statements, which cannot be objectively supported according to Wikipedia guidelines. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
It seems relevant to point out that being a volunteer speaker for a class or a few classes does not confer any official "instructor" or "teacher" status. Claiming to be a teacher and/or instructor infers that you somehow have paid professional status. It is my understanding that Steven Hassan has neither. Using Wikipedia to make such exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims of self importance is not appropriate here. Specifically, being a volunteer speaker for a class at a hospital associated with Harvard Medical (but not Harvard Medical School itself) and appearing as a volunteer speaker for another hospital. It's nice that Hassan does presentations at times for free, but that doesn't confer upon him any professional paid teaching status at either hospital. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
Steven Hassan was invited by a teacher to talk to his class. This was not an "instructor" position and did not take place at "Harvard Medical School," but rather a hospital affiliated with Harvard. This is a conflated claim used to trade on the name of Harvard. Wikipedia must not allow people to use a biogrophy to make self-serving and false claims for self promotional purposes. Hassan does this all the time. For example, he claims on his Linkedin page that he received an award from Israel, but only actually was given a souvenir gift from an Israeli official. I received the same gift, but do not claim it as an "award" on my CV. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
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Cult scale has been listed at
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Pichpich (
talk)
19:34, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Can we add something about this? https://twitter.com/CultExpert/status/1279890726885695488 Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:43, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Harold the Sheep: Since you're the one who tagged the article as COI back in September, [9] please make some sort of note here on the talk page to elaborate (who, how much, which content, etc.). ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
In 1995, Michael Langone questioned Hassan's "humanistic counseling approach." Langone suggested that Hassan's intervention method "runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly" and "thereby manipulating the client."with the two edit summaries "I deleted the paragraph attributed to me, Michael Langone, because (a) the critique made 30 years ago is not valid today and (b) the summary of the critique was not accurate." and "I am MIchael Langone, the person quoted in this paragraph. I deleted the paragraph because (a) it is dated and no longer accurate and (b) the paragraph wasn't even an accurate summary of what I said 32 years ago.
At a bare minimum, the information should have already been properly dated. If Langone said something in 1995, the article should have already clearly explain that he said it in 1995. The entire crit. section is sourced to old sources. While subtle, this is a BLP issue. Attribution requires context, and the age of a source does matter. Grayfell ( talk) 03:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Many recent edits to this article have added generalized anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric that is not specific to this BLP subject. The purpose seems to frame the voice in this article by attributing another subject (e.g., anti-deprogramming) to this person. The particular over-reaching sections are "Deprogramming and exit counseling" and "Criticism". See WP:PODIUM. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
(clarification: these 2 subsections have been started in response to Grorp's claim at the start of this section, that Many recent edits to this article have added generalized anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric that is not specific to this BLP subject. The purpose seems to
frame the voice in this article by attributing another subject (e.g., anti-deprogramming) to this person. The particular over-reaching sections are "Deprogramming and exit counseling" and "Criticism".
The block quote also addresses Grorp's concern expressed below in his "Some notes" section about not being able to access this particular source.
Here is the passage from p. 401 of Violence and New Religious Movements used in the Criticism section. It is clearly specific to the article subject:
For another example, see the writings of Steven Hassan (1988, 1994), an ex-Unificationist who underwent coercive deprogramming and later became a bona fide degreed counselor and who describes himself as once a proponent and practitioner of the coercive type. Later Hassan publically repudiated the coercive variety and turned to a "gentler" form, which he calls "strategic intervention therapy," though he still maintains that the targeted groups are inherently "destructive." With Hassan's nonviolent intervention technique, however, one wonders how many members of NRMs would willingly enter into such "discussions" with the foreknowledge that the "counselor's" entire purpose is not to ascertain their religious sincerity or their full understanding of the extent of their spiritual decisions but rather is to convince them to abandon their faith. (Recall that the "counselor's" client is not the NRM member but rather someone else who hired the "counselor.")
Harold the Sheep ( talk) 02:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
(in no particular order)
I could probably dig (and say) more, but that's all the time I allocated to this project today. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Dumping ground? I started this thread and you responded
This is nonsense, so I went through and gave you some examples. And you say you want order but put your response above mine, contrary to best practices in WP:Talk page guidelines. Insulting other editors will get you nowhere fast. Try again. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 22:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
According to Steven Hassan's account of his departure from the Unification Church ("Moonies") he was "deserted," not quite so dramatically "deprogrammed."
In their book "Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults" (Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1980) authors James and Marcia Rudin relate the following account. "Steve is bitter when he remembers how quickly the church deserted him after his automobile accident. 'I deeply believed the group was a loving family that cared about its members. As soon as I was seriously injured and could no longer collect funds or recruit, The Family called my satanic real family. The Moonies couldn't get rid of me fast enough'" (page 38).
See https://archive.org/details/prisonorparadise00rudi
So this was not quite such a dramatic deprogramming as Hassan relates today. But rather after the church dumped him he was "bitter" and probably much more easily persuaded by former members that the church was bad.
Also, given this narrative it's hard to believe that Hassan was really a high ranking member, but rather simply a regular fund raiser and van driver. He hardly seems like a national leader working closely with Rev. Moon.
The book states, "Yet one midnight in the spring of 1976 the Family deserted Steve when he rammed his car into the back of a truck on the Baltimore Beltway after seventy-two continuous hours of fund raising" (page 38).
Hassan apparently was a regular member working long hours on a mobile fund raising team. A common job at that time within the Unification Church and not a lofty leadership position. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 13:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Please change "Joe went to the store" to "Joe went to the gym". Here is a source for that. http://joegoes.com/gymtime.html The reason is because thus-and-such.
Task complete. See following 2 sections.
▶ I am Grorp ◀
19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
The claim, "By his own account, he rose to the rank of assistant director, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions" must be deleted. Citations are not credible and include only Hassan's website and another website closely aligned with him. There is no independent, reliable and/or credible source cited.
Contrary to this claim Hassan appears to have been a regular member that worked long hours fund raising and recruiting, rather than occupying a prominent high ranking national position with direct access to Rev. Moon. There is no reason to include this claim in the bio.
In the book "Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults," By James and Marcia Rudin, Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1980 on page 38 it states, "Yet one midnight in the spring of 1976 the Family deserted Steve when he rammed his car into the back of a truck on the Baltimore Beltway after seventy-two continuous hours of fund raising."
Why would a prominent high ranking national leader be doing such work, for such long hours and then be so quickly dumped? Doesn't make any sense, unless he was a regular member assigned to a mobile fund raising team. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 15:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Task complete. See following section.
▶ I am Grorp ◀
19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. Asked and answered. |
![]() | Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
"By his own account, he rose to the rank of assistant director, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions."
This false claim is not supported. The citation is wrong. There is nothing about Steven Hassan being "assistant director" or that he ever "met with Sun Myung Moon" in the book "Prison or Paradise" by James and Marcia Rudin.
Quite the contrary, the book indicates he was only a fund raiser and recruiter with no mention of anything else.
This false, unsupported, must be deleted from the bio. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 16:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
no mention of anything else", page 37 of Rudin's book says "Steve Hassan, a former Unification-Church high official who was a national leader of CARP". The other claim (about meeting Moon) is unnecessary, and I removed it along with the apologeticsindex citation. I have made an edit accordingly. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Task complete.
▶ I am Grorp ◀
19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue related to this talk page.
▶ I am Grorp ◀
03:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. Requester has been blocked from this page. |
Is it not historically relevant and important to include that in 1976 Steven Hassan was "deserted" by the Unification Church? And that he was no longer a member of the church at the time of his "deprogramming"?
The book "Prison or Paradise" records these facts historically quoting Hassan directly and the book is cited as a credible source elsewhere in this bio. Doesn't this established fact add meaningful historical context to the "deprogramming"? Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 16:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
There are 3 archives for this talk page:
I don't know how 8 & 9 got created, nor how to get them back into an appropriate sequence. If anyone knows how to do this (technical-wise), please can you repair the issue? Thanks. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)