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The following comments were made in a deleted discussion, and may not make sense to the reader. These comments were once deleted by a claim of violating WP:BLP and soapboxing. I promptly restored them, as they were not in violation of either policy. They were subsequently removed again, stating that while they don't violate the policies referred to above, they don't make sense without the context of the deleted text. This is a disclaimer that the quotes below don't make much sense, since they are taken out of the context. I agree that much of the context was certainly violating soapboxing, and possibly WP:BLP (I really didn't read that much of it). If I had known that my comments would be deleted ahead of time, I would of placed them in a section on their own, or even asked the question on that users talk page. I personally believe that my comments were not malicious, or inappropriate. I believe that it would be a violation of WP:TPG for them to be deleted. Talk is supposed to be archived, not deleted. To help slightly with the context, the original removed comments had a sentence referring to a link that couldn't be posted here because wikipedia had blacklisted it. The following comments are in relation to that topic. Umeboshi 20:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I realize that Jones' work in this area is used to riducule him, but it's at minimum a very serious hobby for him. In addition to the cited paper (which is only reproduced because someone wanted to ridicule him), there is much more to suggest the seriousness of his interest. "For several years", he investiged possible pre-columbian North American horses (which the Book of Mormon writes about); Jones published an article in a Mormon apologetics journal. I doubt it's on par with the effort he put into regular physics, but LDS archaeology has been a major personal interest. Cool Hand Luke 22:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I notice someone's looking for a copy of Prof. Jones' article on Mormon archaeology on the Web. Will this one do?:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051124053614/http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/jones/rel491/handstext+and+figures.htm
--
Lopakhin
13:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Many believe Jones was a government plant to discredit Pons/Fleishman's original Cold Fusion work for the purpose of keeping the world addicted to oil energy. See the links I added and make any necessary additions to the cold fusion section. Watch the 45 minute google video Heavy Watergate: The War Against Cold Fusion. Complete Truth 22:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
A new article details the many similarities between Jones' 9/11 and cold fusion work:
[1]
Complete Truth
05:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Wow, what excellent examples of 9/11-Troofer lunacy.
Oh, wait... You nuts are SERIOUS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.89.92 ( talk) 15:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
read through this page [2] and make any appropriate additions to article. Complete Truth 22:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
As a semi-outsider to this article, I seriously don't understand why editors keep adding and removing these templates. Care to work it out on the talk page? Cool Hand Luke 02:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
–noun
This is the definition from Dictionary.com, any objection to this Tom? Nto sure what definition of group you keep reffering to. I also dont get your redundant pointless arguement that a movement isnt a group unless they signed something or had a charter. Go argue on the Civil Rights Movement template about its list if you honestly feel that way, else I am done discussing the issue with you, you have grown quite rude and its already been noted your "incidents" regarding this template. --
Nuclear
Zer0
17:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
What exactly are you mad at him for? Edit warring, or continually replying to your remarks? More importantly, shouldn't disputes about article content be on the article talk page instead of a user's? Why can't you resolve this on template talk? It seems likely that 911ct will be kept, so I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. Why not resolve your disputes on the template first? Cool Hand Luke 01:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
>>"Although his work is the basis of many 9/11 conspiracy theories, Jones himself maintains that more research is needed before any definitive conclusions can be drawn about the collapses."
What "other" conspiracy theories is Jones' work the basis for??? And especially if he himself calls for more research? The demolition ht was around long before Jones was on the scene, so he didn't "create" that theory nor exclusively promote it, so how on earth could his work then be a "basis"? Which "conspiracy theories" - specifically, ones purporting a criminal conspiracy among individuals - are being referred to here? To say that someone else's "conspiracy theory" is using Jones's work as its basis would have to be a theory which came out after 2005 when Jones went public, and which involves a criminal conspiracy based on the use of thermite. Please provide a link to the new "conspiracy theory" which is based on Jones' work specifically. bov 00:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
A user named "Hardevidence" attempted to make some changes, most of which are corrections, and I happen to know this user is Dr. Jones himself, as he contacted me. Yet, these efforts were removed without any regard. For example, Dr. Jones attempted to correct that fact that Judy Woods' position is now "former." This was eliminated. No request for citation, just removed. He also attempted to clarify some of the scientific statements but again, just removed.
In particular he told me directly that the statement "His experiments initially used a diamond anvil to create high pressures" is completely false. His attempt to correct that was also removed.
Why would a statement without any source be preferred on wikipedia when someone is clearly attempting to remove that statement to correct it? Why is any change to the page treated as vandalism if someone is not a known official version promoter? It's a pathetic atmosphere on here -- protect the obvious and unsourced errors instead of bothering to even look at the content of the attempted corrections.
I'm going in revert the last reversion until someone can actually address the issues. bov 22:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's get real, here. The first rule of an encyclopedia article is that it should be truthful. Nobody sane & honest calls 9-11 conspiracy nuts a "truth movement."
Consider, for comparison, the KKK. The top of the Ku Klux Klan web page preposterously proclaims that it represents, "A Message of Love NOT Hate!" Does that mean that Wikipedia's article on the KKK should credulously describe it that way? Of course not! To do so would be dishonest, because that description is plainly wrong. If such a description were to be used, it necessarily should be accompanied by an indication (like "so-called") to warn readers that the description is deceptive, just as calling 9-11 conspiracy nuts a "truth movement" is deceptive, because that description is plainly wrong. NCdave 09:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
>>>"The first rule of an encyclopedia article is that it should be truthful. Nobody sane & honest calls 9-11 conspiracy nuts a "truth movement."
Too bad none of the studies were done by the Bush Administration. Maybe read the reports yourself instead of letting other people tell you what they say? Wowest 22:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
People who think that collapse was a controled demolition ask for a new investigation. People who think that oficial conspiracy theory is true, do not ask for new investigations.
People who use the phrase "oficial conspiracy theory" have no idea what the first investigation said and are merely parroting other truthers. Start simple and get real studies published in real journals rather than using fake ones a la Dr. Jones, or posting on youtube. People who do not like investigations have something to hide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.59.203.125 ( talk) 19:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
In ordinary speech, the word theory can mean any idea, including ideas that either have no validity or questionable validity. "That's just your theory," she said.
In science and engineering, a "theory" represents information that is accepted widely enough that it is treated as fact by mainstream professionals (but--to placate naysayers--yes, even science recognizes that nothing, not even the theories of Relativity and Quantum mechanics can be shown as 100% fact).
Mr. Jones' idea was merely a hypotheses.
I believe that the main article's reference to this as a theory is inappropriate given its claim to scientific accuracy. It was never peer reviewed and published, much less widely accepted by mainstream professionals (in the civil engineering world, in this case) and treated as fact.
RainOfSteel 18:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
No evidence has been presented that the book is "peer-reviewed". In fact, books, even scientfic books (which this is not), are rarely "peer-reviewed". They may be reviewed by the editor.... — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The topic discussed over and over. Arthur, if your argument is there is no source for peer review - here is one: [5] It's cached because original article needs subsription to read. I remember reading about this in 2 or 3 articles in serious newspapers. It was stated that Jones's paper was peer reviewed by 4 PhD's, 2 of them physicists. I'm sure more can be found. SalvNaut 23:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Is that why he retired instead of having BYU complete his audit? Is that why he created his own peer review system, sort of like creationists do? Is that why they published in a pay for publish journal? Is that why he "welcomed" Griscom to the 9/11 Truth community when Griscom was published in the Jo9/11S years earlier & was acknowledged in the very study he was supposed to be anonymously reviewing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.98.196 ( talk) 06:06, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm seeing a lot of massive non-neutral editing of content on here without discussion by anonymous sources. It looks like the page should be reverted to a much earlier version. I will implement this soon if no one else corrects the new edits. bov 19:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm noticing a lot of prominent displays of the phrase "conspiracy theory" and its variations. This is an ad hominim attack, using the widespread meme "paranoid conspiracy theory" to implicitly defame anyone who questions the official Bush regime legends regarding 9/11. A statement is neither invalid nor indicative of mental illness if it suggests that a false flag operation is taking place. There have been numerous such operations in modern history. Our CIA has overthrown numerous legitimate governments since World War Two
Please learn what ad hom is. Nowhere in the article does it say "x person has such characteristic, therefore they are wrong". Before further commenting on anything regarding 9/11 read the studies yourself instead of proving you never did by baselessly claiming they "Bush Regime Legends". It only proves you never even cracked a single study on the topic.
How about if you discuss which "non-neutral" content you wish to remove before you do so? I'd like to see the terms "conspiracy theory" and "9/11 Truth Movement" given equal prominence since the number of Americans who would support either term is about equal.
Wowest 22:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
While we're waiting, I propose changing the opening sentence from Steven Earl Jones is an American physicist. to Steven Earl Jones is an American physicist, inventor, retired physics professor, philanthropist and independent 9/11 researcher. He is also a devout, lifelong Mormon. . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wowest ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
http://perspectives.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=116439&forum_id=87
Posted: Sat Sep 16th, 2006 08:50 Soon after BYU asked Professor Jones to remove his paper speculating on the causes of the WTC collapse from the university server due to lack of peer review, Jones was suspended with pay, with little explanation beyond the 'speculative' and 'accusatory' nature of some of his claims, and some hints that it may be examining whether any of this was entering his classroom. I initially felt it likely that his suspension would turn out to be another example of BYU's strict and allegedly moral codes impinging on academic freedom. Turns out...not so much.
From here:
The action came two days after Jones appeared on KUER-FM 90.1's respected news talk show "Radio West." On the show, he said it appeared responsibility for the attacks rested with Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and an "international banking cartel." The statement drew immediate response from Jews who said they were offended because references to international banking have for decades been used by anti-Semitic groups as codespeak to blame Jews for various problems. Hitler often blamed "international financiers" for Germany's debt after World War I. A spokesman for the Anti-Defamation League said he will recommend in a committee meeting tomorrow that the ADL send a letter to BYU complaining about the comments and expressing concern that such comments might be made by Jones in his classes. BYU relieved Jones of his teaching load this semester while it conducts a formal review of his research and statements. "Wow, I don't know if he could be any clearer," said Jonathan Bernstein, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League for California, Utah and Hawaii. "This is the language we hear from David Duke and other hatemongers who want to scapegoat Jews."
Professor Jones claims ignorance about the term's significance, and came out with a brilliant 'but I'm just repeating the lies of others!' comment:
He wasn't sure where he got the phrase because he was referring to the work of Webster Tarpley, a historian and member of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth, a group co-founded by Jones. Tarpley refers only to a shadowy, rogue network, not to international bankers.
Given the noted antisemitism which has pervaded the 9/11 denial movement from its early origins; Messrs Wolfowitz and Perles' ethnicities, and conspiracy nuts' penchant for claiming coincidence necessitates collusion and lies, will conspiracy theorists conclude that Professor Jones is not being completely frank with his explanation?
In all honesty it's likely he genuinely did pick up the term from one of his fellows in the movement without having any idea that his fellow nutjob was a Jew hating racist scumbag -- God knows enough lies propagate throughout the movement without being critically examined. There's plenty of potential candidates, so we may never track down where he picked it up. And BYU is still retarded, it just hasn't acted improperly in this instance.
I'll finish with a brilliant money quote, my bold:
"In the past, numerous times I deferred to those experts," Jones said. "This time I said, in my opinion, (Tarpley's) right. But I also think that's way outside the research I specialize in. I think it's smarter to leave the tasks of who should be investigated to those who specialize in those things."
Posted: Sat Sep 16th, 2006 05:56 pm
"In all honesty it's likely he genuinely did pick up the term from one of his fellows in the movement without having any idea that his fellow nutjob was a Jew hating racist scumbag"
You're probably right. I can easily see someone being unaware of the historical antisemitic baggage that a description like "international banking cartel" would have. That didn't send up read flags for me when I read it.
But Jones has moved from "asking questions" to slandering specific people without anything resembling serious evidence, so I don't blame BYU for being concerned. Any company would be concerned if an employee repeatedly associated with the company starts off on a public obsession with slandering public officials with accusations of mass murder based on the flimsiest of evidence.
Posted: Sun Sep 17th, 2006 08:28 pm
So the term "international banking cartel" is somehow deemed "anti-semitic"??
That's quite a reach, since there are probably hundreds of "international banking cartels". Just so happens that perle and wolfowitz are jews, along with the majority of the PNAC membership. They could just as easily have been Irish catholics, or Chinese buddhists.
"Anti-semite" is a whopper in itself, since the only true "semites" are the native Arabs, not the European jews who moved in with them.
We live in a bizarre world of lies, half-truths, warped realities, politically-correct misnomers, and ever-deepening bullsh!t. No need to take much of it seriously.
(end of quotation) Wowest 00:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's a simple cut-and-paste from a blog. It is not presented as proposed content, but merely to point out to you that sources which appear to be more reliable than you have been in this discussion disagree with your assessment that it was not about the unfounded accusation of antisemitism. I say more reliable because they cite station call-letters, dates and the names of people who have made public comments.
The fact that, according to various professional organizations, BYU acted in a way which violated Steven Jones's right to academic freedom, and their excuses for doing so are not particularly relevant to an article about Steven Jones, but might be relevant to an article about BYU.
I don't have enough time remaining in my life for deprogramming every True Believer in whatever-the-administration-puts-in-its-news-releases-to -their-captive-media. You believe whatever you are told to believe unless you have reason to believe otherwise. I believed the official story about 9/11 for a number of months. If I had never in my life recognized that I had had unexamined beliefs that were, in fact, not true -- if I believed that I believed whatever I believed because it was true -- it would have been more difficult for me to snap out of it. However, if you weren't convinced that I and people like me are wrong about this issue you wouldn't take the positions you do.
The 9/11 Truth Movement involves a lot of people with differing opinions. We recognize that we have been lied to by our government, and we believe that we have a right to be told the truth. Beyond that, we pick and choose which alternative explanations we will tentatively embrace as seeming the most likely to lead to the truth. Or to truth and justice, if that is a person's bent. Some members of our community embrace impossible theories. No, the twin towers were NOT brought down by Star Wars particle beams from outer space. That sort of thing only works, at this point in time, in Science Fiction.
You have every right to hold an opinion about all of this, of course, and you have a right to be emotional about your opinion, although that will tend to make you less objective about it. Right after 9/11, when everyone was in shock, people were sticking American flags on their cars and speeding up and down Reseda Blvd. Somehow that was going to fix things. The more of that sort of thing someone did, the more stuck they will be. That's called cognitive dissonance. Wowest 05:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This article still distorts the life of Steven Jones, to date. I assert that it is equally important that he is (1) a physicist, (2) a retired professor, (3) an inventor, (4) a philanthropist, (5) an independent expert researching the WTC collapse, (6) a person with a controversial opinion about 9/11 and (7) a devout, lifelong Mormon, whose behavior is consistent with his epistemlogy and ethics.
Wowest 05:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
That is not true. Is is best known for his completely scientific analysis of formerly molten metal retrieved from the WTC and of the iron rich spheroids found in the dust from the WTC. The fact that this information is better explained by the "controlled demolition" hypothesis than by the "19 insane hijacker conspirators did it all by themselves" hypothesis is not the fault of the data. Neither is the fact that the controlled demolition hypothesis is better explained by one of numerous conspiracy theories than by anything in the mainstream corporate media. THAT is the fault of the once-reliable mainstream corporate media. Jones is much better known among people interested in refugee relief and feeding the hungry for the solar funnel cooker/refrigerator he invented.
The only purely goal-driven pseudo-science comes from the NIST, FEMA and others with tweaked, unrealistic computer-model explanations and their intellectual heirs, the 9/11 Commission. A whistleblower has now leaked the blueprints for the twin towers, exposing more of the lies in the 9/11 Commission/Omission report. . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wowest ( talk • contribs) 18:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
What you fail to grasp, is the motivation inherent to these luminaries of the 911 conspiracy theorists movement. With the money that has flowed into the 911 'truthmovement'; many of its cult leaders (including retired Prof. Jones) are making some serious money out of selling their unproven and unsubstantiated theories to the gullible. Perhaps Prof. Jones and the others would like to explain why they haven't contributed any of the literally tens of millions of dollars they have generated and donated them to the relatives of the victims, or better still used their profits to start a legal case to bring about a judicial review of their allegations and claims? Every time they are challenged to do so, the same old lame excuses start to flow from their supporters. Perhaps, it’s about time that they showed the courage of their convictions and stopped throwing stones from the protection they hide behind by bringing accusations unencumbered by any fear of retribution for making such wild claims which are devoid of any tangible forensic or engineering evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.149.41.130 ( talk) 12:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Wowest 21:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I would risk a claim that using the "conspiracy theory" concept without "" is violation of NPOV, since it's such a heavily emotionaly biased description. Mik1984 ( talk) 18:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
.
I tried to update the article with this recent news but it keeps being reverted for no good reason:
However the quality of Bentham Open publications has recently been called into question, suggesting that no valid peer review of Jone's paper actually took place. The Chief Editor of the journal Jones published the paper in has resigned saying that she never authorized the publication of the paper and did not consider it worthy of publication in the Journal and that its publication may have been politically motivated; other editors have also resigned from the Journal. The validity and rigour of the results in the Bentham Open paper is thus questionable. [1]. Bentham Open is a publisher based in the United Arab Emirates and apparently managed by personell in Pakistan leading to speculation that it is biased on 9/11 topics; further other Bentham Open publications have been accused by academics of 'spamming' researchers with offers to publish or edit the journal, even where those researchers have no background in the field of study. [2] [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.91.35.75 ( talk • contribs) 01:47, April 29, 2009
Probably not suitable for Jones' bio. A few pages already link to Bentham Science Publishers. I don't know if there are enough reliable sources to support an article. Tom Harrison Talk 20:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
The Open Chemical Physics Journal now has a new editor-in-chief: [8]
Prof. Lucio Frydman, Department of Chemical Physics, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Cs32en 21:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi Arthur,
I do not agree with your recent edit. The author of the article that is being used as a source here is Norman Oder (not Phil Davis). Norman Oder describes the person who makes the statement which is the main focus of his article as "Cornell University librarian and graduate student Phil Davis". We should always state the source of criticism if we include criticism in WP articles. The source of the criticism is Phil Davis (and others), and Norman Oder is reporting on him (and other). Norman Oder is not drawing conclusions of his own in the article. Therefore, we cannot report on the "drawing into question" as some kind of fact, but we can report on the statements by Phil Davis and others, and we should follow the language of the our sources when doing so. I am looking forward to hearing about your further thoughts on this issue. Cs32en 00:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
There is objection to the following sentence in the lede:
Although it's clear to any rational observer, and supported by some newspaper articles (as noted in the body), that the leave was due to the controversy, we're not saying that. We're only saying that the controversy and the leave occurred at the same time. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
one thing: this part says: "Jones suggested that the evidence defies the mainstream collapse theory and favors explosive demolition, possibly by the use of thermite or nanothermite." But "thermite or nanothermite" are not explosives. Not at all. It's a contradiction in itself. Idonthavetimeforthiscrap ( talk) 16:04, 20 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Idonthavetimeforthiscrap ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like a pretty big ignorance of how demolitions work in my book, but hey, original research is not allowed, so... well i just wanted to underline how such a claim is completely absurd. Cya. Idonthavetimeforthiscrap ( talk) 20:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones#WTC_destruction_controversy
These two sentences:
"The editor of the journal, Professor Marie-Paule Pileni, an expert in explosives and nano-technology,[40][41] resigned. She received an e-mail from the Danish science journal Videnskab asking for her professional assessment of the article's content.[42][43]"
Seem to be orphaned. Why did she resign? and when asked for her assessment, what did she say? The article leaves us hanging.
Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 13:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
This site explains it better: She resigned because the article was published without her permission. And she was supposedly the editor in chief of the publication:
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2009/04/bentham-editor-resigns-over-steven.html
Perhaps someone can fix this? Maybe it was better explained in an earlier version of the page, and it has been damaged over time. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 14:09, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
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I've removed the below sentence, which has no basis in the sourced citation. The sentence itself is also confusing and poorly written, i.e., "still more ostensible", "efficacy of the review process", etc. The article makes no mention of Jones or his papers.
Skepticism arose as to the efficacy of the peer-review process, and conspiracy theorists responded to refutations by positing still more ostensible cover-ups. [1] Researcher2022 ( talk) 04:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
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The following comments were made in a deleted discussion, and may not make sense to the reader. These comments were once deleted by a claim of violating WP:BLP and soapboxing. I promptly restored them, as they were not in violation of either policy. They were subsequently removed again, stating that while they don't violate the policies referred to above, they don't make sense without the context of the deleted text. This is a disclaimer that the quotes below don't make much sense, since they are taken out of the context. I agree that much of the context was certainly violating soapboxing, and possibly WP:BLP (I really didn't read that much of it). If I had known that my comments would be deleted ahead of time, I would of placed them in a section on their own, or even asked the question on that users talk page. I personally believe that my comments were not malicious, or inappropriate. I believe that it would be a violation of WP:TPG for them to be deleted. Talk is supposed to be archived, not deleted. To help slightly with the context, the original removed comments had a sentence referring to a link that couldn't be posted here because wikipedia had blacklisted it. The following comments are in relation to that topic. Umeboshi 20:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I realize that Jones' work in this area is used to riducule him, but it's at minimum a very serious hobby for him. In addition to the cited paper (which is only reproduced because someone wanted to ridicule him), there is much more to suggest the seriousness of his interest. "For several years", he investiged possible pre-columbian North American horses (which the Book of Mormon writes about); Jones published an article in a Mormon apologetics journal. I doubt it's on par with the effort he put into regular physics, but LDS archaeology has been a major personal interest. Cool Hand Luke 22:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I notice someone's looking for a copy of Prof. Jones' article on Mormon archaeology on the Web. Will this one do?:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051124053614/http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/jones/rel491/handstext+and+figures.htm
--
Lopakhin
13:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Many believe Jones was a government plant to discredit Pons/Fleishman's original Cold Fusion work for the purpose of keeping the world addicted to oil energy. See the links I added and make any necessary additions to the cold fusion section. Watch the 45 minute google video Heavy Watergate: The War Against Cold Fusion. Complete Truth 22:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
A new article details the many similarities between Jones' 9/11 and cold fusion work:
[1]
Complete Truth
05:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Wow, what excellent examples of 9/11-Troofer lunacy.
Oh, wait... You nuts are SERIOUS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.89.92 ( talk) 15:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
read through this page [2] and make any appropriate additions to article. Complete Truth 22:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
As a semi-outsider to this article, I seriously don't understand why editors keep adding and removing these templates. Care to work it out on the talk page? Cool Hand Luke 02:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
–noun
This is the definition from Dictionary.com, any objection to this Tom? Nto sure what definition of group you keep reffering to. I also dont get your redundant pointless arguement that a movement isnt a group unless they signed something or had a charter. Go argue on the Civil Rights Movement template about its list if you honestly feel that way, else I am done discussing the issue with you, you have grown quite rude and its already been noted your "incidents" regarding this template. --
Nuclear
Zer0
17:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
What exactly are you mad at him for? Edit warring, or continually replying to your remarks? More importantly, shouldn't disputes about article content be on the article talk page instead of a user's? Why can't you resolve this on template talk? It seems likely that 911ct will be kept, so I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. Why not resolve your disputes on the template first? Cool Hand Luke 01:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
>>"Although his work is the basis of many 9/11 conspiracy theories, Jones himself maintains that more research is needed before any definitive conclusions can be drawn about the collapses."
What "other" conspiracy theories is Jones' work the basis for??? And especially if he himself calls for more research? The demolition ht was around long before Jones was on the scene, so he didn't "create" that theory nor exclusively promote it, so how on earth could his work then be a "basis"? Which "conspiracy theories" - specifically, ones purporting a criminal conspiracy among individuals - are being referred to here? To say that someone else's "conspiracy theory" is using Jones's work as its basis would have to be a theory which came out after 2005 when Jones went public, and which involves a criminal conspiracy based on the use of thermite. Please provide a link to the new "conspiracy theory" which is based on Jones' work specifically. bov 00:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
A user named "Hardevidence" attempted to make some changes, most of which are corrections, and I happen to know this user is Dr. Jones himself, as he contacted me. Yet, these efforts were removed without any regard. For example, Dr. Jones attempted to correct that fact that Judy Woods' position is now "former." This was eliminated. No request for citation, just removed. He also attempted to clarify some of the scientific statements but again, just removed.
In particular he told me directly that the statement "His experiments initially used a diamond anvil to create high pressures" is completely false. His attempt to correct that was also removed.
Why would a statement without any source be preferred on wikipedia when someone is clearly attempting to remove that statement to correct it? Why is any change to the page treated as vandalism if someone is not a known official version promoter? It's a pathetic atmosphere on here -- protect the obvious and unsourced errors instead of bothering to even look at the content of the attempted corrections.
I'm going in revert the last reversion until someone can actually address the issues. bov 22:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's get real, here. The first rule of an encyclopedia article is that it should be truthful. Nobody sane & honest calls 9-11 conspiracy nuts a "truth movement."
Consider, for comparison, the KKK. The top of the Ku Klux Klan web page preposterously proclaims that it represents, "A Message of Love NOT Hate!" Does that mean that Wikipedia's article on the KKK should credulously describe it that way? Of course not! To do so would be dishonest, because that description is plainly wrong. If such a description were to be used, it necessarily should be accompanied by an indication (like "so-called") to warn readers that the description is deceptive, just as calling 9-11 conspiracy nuts a "truth movement" is deceptive, because that description is plainly wrong. NCdave 09:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
>>>"The first rule of an encyclopedia article is that it should be truthful. Nobody sane & honest calls 9-11 conspiracy nuts a "truth movement."
Too bad none of the studies were done by the Bush Administration. Maybe read the reports yourself instead of letting other people tell you what they say? Wowest 22:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
People who think that collapse was a controled demolition ask for a new investigation. People who think that oficial conspiracy theory is true, do not ask for new investigations.
People who use the phrase "oficial conspiracy theory" have no idea what the first investigation said and are merely parroting other truthers. Start simple and get real studies published in real journals rather than using fake ones a la Dr. Jones, or posting on youtube. People who do not like investigations have something to hide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.59.203.125 ( talk) 19:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
In ordinary speech, the word theory can mean any idea, including ideas that either have no validity or questionable validity. "That's just your theory," she said.
In science and engineering, a "theory" represents information that is accepted widely enough that it is treated as fact by mainstream professionals (but--to placate naysayers--yes, even science recognizes that nothing, not even the theories of Relativity and Quantum mechanics can be shown as 100% fact).
Mr. Jones' idea was merely a hypotheses.
I believe that the main article's reference to this as a theory is inappropriate given its claim to scientific accuracy. It was never peer reviewed and published, much less widely accepted by mainstream professionals (in the civil engineering world, in this case) and treated as fact.
RainOfSteel 18:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
No evidence has been presented that the book is "peer-reviewed". In fact, books, even scientfic books (which this is not), are rarely "peer-reviewed". They may be reviewed by the editor.... — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The topic discussed over and over. Arthur, if your argument is there is no source for peer review - here is one: [5] It's cached because original article needs subsription to read. I remember reading about this in 2 or 3 articles in serious newspapers. It was stated that Jones's paper was peer reviewed by 4 PhD's, 2 of them physicists. I'm sure more can be found. SalvNaut 23:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Is that why he retired instead of having BYU complete his audit? Is that why he created his own peer review system, sort of like creationists do? Is that why they published in a pay for publish journal? Is that why he "welcomed" Griscom to the 9/11 Truth community when Griscom was published in the Jo9/11S years earlier & was acknowledged in the very study he was supposed to be anonymously reviewing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.98.196 ( talk) 06:06, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm seeing a lot of massive non-neutral editing of content on here without discussion by anonymous sources. It looks like the page should be reverted to a much earlier version. I will implement this soon if no one else corrects the new edits. bov 19:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm noticing a lot of prominent displays of the phrase "conspiracy theory" and its variations. This is an ad hominim attack, using the widespread meme "paranoid conspiracy theory" to implicitly defame anyone who questions the official Bush regime legends regarding 9/11. A statement is neither invalid nor indicative of mental illness if it suggests that a false flag operation is taking place. There have been numerous such operations in modern history. Our CIA has overthrown numerous legitimate governments since World War Two
Please learn what ad hom is. Nowhere in the article does it say "x person has such characteristic, therefore they are wrong". Before further commenting on anything regarding 9/11 read the studies yourself instead of proving you never did by baselessly claiming they "Bush Regime Legends". It only proves you never even cracked a single study on the topic.
How about if you discuss which "non-neutral" content you wish to remove before you do so? I'd like to see the terms "conspiracy theory" and "9/11 Truth Movement" given equal prominence since the number of Americans who would support either term is about equal.
Wowest 22:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
While we're waiting, I propose changing the opening sentence from Steven Earl Jones is an American physicist. to Steven Earl Jones is an American physicist, inventor, retired physics professor, philanthropist and independent 9/11 researcher. He is also a devout, lifelong Mormon. . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wowest ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
http://perspectives.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=116439&forum_id=87
Posted: Sat Sep 16th, 2006 08:50 Soon after BYU asked Professor Jones to remove his paper speculating on the causes of the WTC collapse from the university server due to lack of peer review, Jones was suspended with pay, with little explanation beyond the 'speculative' and 'accusatory' nature of some of his claims, and some hints that it may be examining whether any of this was entering his classroom. I initially felt it likely that his suspension would turn out to be another example of BYU's strict and allegedly moral codes impinging on academic freedom. Turns out...not so much.
From here:
The action came two days after Jones appeared on KUER-FM 90.1's respected news talk show "Radio West." On the show, he said it appeared responsibility for the attacks rested with Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and an "international banking cartel." The statement drew immediate response from Jews who said they were offended because references to international banking have for decades been used by anti-Semitic groups as codespeak to blame Jews for various problems. Hitler often blamed "international financiers" for Germany's debt after World War I. A spokesman for the Anti-Defamation League said he will recommend in a committee meeting tomorrow that the ADL send a letter to BYU complaining about the comments and expressing concern that such comments might be made by Jones in his classes. BYU relieved Jones of his teaching load this semester while it conducts a formal review of his research and statements. "Wow, I don't know if he could be any clearer," said Jonathan Bernstein, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League for California, Utah and Hawaii. "This is the language we hear from David Duke and other hatemongers who want to scapegoat Jews."
Professor Jones claims ignorance about the term's significance, and came out with a brilliant 'but I'm just repeating the lies of others!' comment:
He wasn't sure where he got the phrase because he was referring to the work of Webster Tarpley, a historian and member of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth, a group co-founded by Jones. Tarpley refers only to a shadowy, rogue network, not to international bankers.
Given the noted antisemitism which has pervaded the 9/11 denial movement from its early origins; Messrs Wolfowitz and Perles' ethnicities, and conspiracy nuts' penchant for claiming coincidence necessitates collusion and lies, will conspiracy theorists conclude that Professor Jones is not being completely frank with his explanation?
In all honesty it's likely he genuinely did pick up the term from one of his fellows in the movement without having any idea that his fellow nutjob was a Jew hating racist scumbag -- God knows enough lies propagate throughout the movement without being critically examined. There's plenty of potential candidates, so we may never track down where he picked it up. And BYU is still retarded, it just hasn't acted improperly in this instance.
I'll finish with a brilliant money quote, my bold:
"In the past, numerous times I deferred to those experts," Jones said. "This time I said, in my opinion, (Tarpley's) right. But I also think that's way outside the research I specialize in. I think it's smarter to leave the tasks of who should be investigated to those who specialize in those things."
Posted: Sat Sep 16th, 2006 05:56 pm
"In all honesty it's likely he genuinely did pick up the term from one of his fellows in the movement without having any idea that his fellow nutjob was a Jew hating racist scumbag"
You're probably right. I can easily see someone being unaware of the historical antisemitic baggage that a description like "international banking cartel" would have. That didn't send up read flags for me when I read it.
But Jones has moved from "asking questions" to slandering specific people without anything resembling serious evidence, so I don't blame BYU for being concerned. Any company would be concerned if an employee repeatedly associated with the company starts off on a public obsession with slandering public officials with accusations of mass murder based on the flimsiest of evidence.
Posted: Sun Sep 17th, 2006 08:28 pm
So the term "international banking cartel" is somehow deemed "anti-semitic"??
That's quite a reach, since there are probably hundreds of "international banking cartels". Just so happens that perle and wolfowitz are jews, along with the majority of the PNAC membership. They could just as easily have been Irish catholics, or Chinese buddhists.
"Anti-semite" is a whopper in itself, since the only true "semites" are the native Arabs, not the European jews who moved in with them.
We live in a bizarre world of lies, half-truths, warped realities, politically-correct misnomers, and ever-deepening bullsh!t. No need to take much of it seriously.
(end of quotation) Wowest 00:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's a simple cut-and-paste from a blog. It is not presented as proposed content, but merely to point out to you that sources which appear to be more reliable than you have been in this discussion disagree with your assessment that it was not about the unfounded accusation of antisemitism. I say more reliable because they cite station call-letters, dates and the names of people who have made public comments.
The fact that, according to various professional organizations, BYU acted in a way which violated Steven Jones's right to academic freedom, and their excuses for doing so are not particularly relevant to an article about Steven Jones, but might be relevant to an article about BYU.
I don't have enough time remaining in my life for deprogramming every True Believer in whatever-the-administration-puts-in-its-news-releases-to -their-captive-media. You believe whatever you are told to believe unless you have reason to believe otherwise. I believed the official story about 9/11 for a number of months. If I had never in my life recognized that I had had unexamined beliefs that were, in fact, not true -- if I believed that I believed whatever I believed because it was true -- it would have been more difficult for me to snap out of it. However, if you weren't convinced that I and people like me are wrong about this issue you wouldn't take the positions you do.
The 9/11 Truth Movement involves a lot of people with differing opinions. We recognize that we have been lied to by our government, and we believe that we have a right to be told the truth. Beyond that, we pick and choose which alternative explanations we will tentatively embrace as seeming the most likely to lead to the truth. Or to truth and justice, if that is a person's bent. Some members of our community embrace impossible theories. No, the twin towers were NOT brought down by Star Wars particle beams from outer space. That sort of thing only works, at this point in time, in Science Fiction.
You have every right to hold an opinion about all of this, of course, and you have a right to be emotional about your opinion, although that will tend to make you less objective about it. Right after 9/11, when everyone was in shock, people were sticking American flags on their cars and speeding up and down Reseda Blvd. Somehow that was going to fix things. The more of that sort of thing someone did, the more stuck they will be. That's called cognitive dissonance. Wowest 05:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This article still distorts the life of Steven Jones, to date. I assert that it is equally important that he is (1) a physicist, (2) a retired professor, (3) an inventor, (4) a philanthropist, (5) an independent expert researching the WTC collapse, (6) a person with a controversial opinion about 9/11 and (7) a devout, lifelong Mormon, whose behavior is consistent with his epistemlogy and ethics.
Wowest 05:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
That is not true. Is is best known for his completely scientific analysis of formerly molten metal retrieved from the WTC and of the iron rich spheroids found in the dust from the WTC. The fact that this information is better explained by the "controlled demolition" hypothesis than by the "19 insane hijacker conspirators did it all by themselves" hypothesis is not the fault of the data. Neither is the fact that the controlled demolition hypothesis is better explained by one of numerous conspiracy theories than by anything in the mainstream corporate media. THAT is the fault of the once-reliable mainstream corporate media. Jones is much better known among people interested in refugee relief and feeding the hungry for the solar funnel cooker/refrigerator he invented.
The only purely goal-driven pseudo-science comes from the NIST, FEMA and others with tweaked, unrealistic computer-model explanations and their intellectual heirs, the 9/11 Commission. A whistleblower has now leaked the blueprints for the twin towers, exposing more of the lies in the 9/11 Commission/Omission report. . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wowest ( talk • contribs) 18:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
What you fail to grasp, is the motivation inherent to these luminaries of the 911 conspiracy theorists movement. With the money that has flowed into the 911 'truthmovement'; many of its cult leaders (including retired Prof. Jones) are making some serious money out of selling their unproven and unsubstantiated theories to the gullible. Perhaps Prof. Jones and the others would like to explain why they haven't contributed any of the literally tens of millions of dollars they have generated and donated them to the relatives of the victims, or better still used their profits to start a legal case to bring about a judicial review of their allegations and claims? Every time they are challenged to do so, the same old lame excuses start to flow from their supporters. Perhaps, it’s about time that they showed the courage of their convictions and stopped throwing stones from the protection they hide behind by bringing accusations unencumbered by any fear of retribution for making such wild claims which are devoid of any tangible forensic or engineering evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.149.41.130 ( talk) 12:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Wowest 21:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I would risk a claim that using the "conspiracy theory" concept without "" is violation of NPOV, since it's such a heavily emotionaly biased description. Mik1984 ( talk) 18:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
.
I tried to update the article with this recent news but it keeps being reverted for no good reason:
However the quality of Bentham Open publications has recently been called into question, suggesting that no valid peer review of Jone's paper actually took place. The Chief Editor of the journal Jones published the paper in has resigned saying that she never authorized the publication of the paper and did not consider it worthy of publication in the Journal and that its publication may have been politically motivated; other editors have also resigned from the Journal. The validity and rigour of the results in the Bentham Open paper is thus questionable. [1]. Bentham Open is a publisher based in the United Arab Emirates and apparently managed by personell in Pakistan leading to speculation that it is biased on 9/11 topics; further other Bentham Open publications have been accused by academics of 'spamming' researchers with offers to publish or edit the journal, even where those researchers have no background in the field of study. [2] [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.91.35.75 ( talk • contribs) 01:47, April 29, 2009
Probably not suitable for Jones' bio. A few pages already link to Bentham Science Publishers. I don't know if there are enough reliable sources to support an article. Tom Harrison Talk 20:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
The Open Chemical Physics Journal now has a new editor-in-chief: [8]
Prof. Lucio Frydman, Department of Chemical Physics, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Cs32en 21:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi Arthur,
I do not agree with your recent edit. The author of the article that is being used as a source here is Norman Oder (not Phil Davis). Norman Oder describes the person who makes the statement which is the main focus of his article as "Cornell University librarian and graduate student Phil Davis". We should always state the source of criticism if we include criticism in WP articles. The source of the criticism is Phil Davis (and others), and Norman Oder is reporting on him (and other). Norman Oder is not drawing conclusions of his own in the article. Therefore, we cannot report on the "drawing into question" as some kind of fact, but we can report on the statements by Phil Davis and others, and we should follow the language of the our sources when doing so. I am looking forward to hearing about your further thoughts on this issue. Cs32en 00:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
There is objection to the following sentence in the lede:
Although it's clear to any rational observer, and supported by some newspaper articles (as noted in the body), that the leave was due to the controversy, we're not saying that. We're only saying that the controversy and the leave occurred at the same time. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
one thing: this part says: "Jones suggested that the evidence defies the mainstream collapse theory and favors explosive demolition, possibly by the use of thermite or nanothermite." But "thermite or nanothermite" are not explosives. Not at all. It's a contradiction in itself. Idonthavetimeforthiscrap ( talk) 16:04, 20 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Idonthavetimeforthiscrap ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like a pretty big ignorance of how demolitions work in my book, but hey, original research is not allowed, so... well i just wanted to underline how such a claim is completely absurd. Cya. Idonthavetimeforthiscrap ( talk) 20:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones#WTC_destruction_controversy
These two sentences:
"The editor of the journal, Professor Marie-Paule Pileni, an expert in explosives and nano-technology,[40][41] resigned. She received an e-mail from the Danish science journal Videnskab asking for her professional assessment of the article's content.[42][43]"
Seem to be orphaned. Why did she resign? and when asked for her assessment, what did she say? The article leaves us hanging.
Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 13:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
This site explains it better: She resigned because the article was published without her permission. And she was supposedly the editor in chief of the publication:
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2009/04/bentham-editor-resigns-over-steven.html
Perhaps someone can fix this? Maybe it was better explained in an earlier version of the page, and it has been damaged over time. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 14:09, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
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I've removed the below sentence, which has no basis in the sourced citation. The sentence itself is also confusing and poorly written, i.e., "still more ostensible", "efficacy of the review process", etc. The article makes no mention of Jones or his papers.
Skepticism arose as to the efficacy of the peer-review process, and conspiracy theorists responded to refutations by positing still more ostensible cover-ups. [1] Researcher2022 ( talk) 04:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
References