This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Steve Sailer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 730 days
![]() |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
![]() | Arbitration Ruling on Race and Intelligence The article Steve Sailer, along with other articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed), is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, described in a 2010 Arbitration Committee case where the articulated principles included:
If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the above guidelines. You may also wish to review the full arbitration case page. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. |
I don't feel that the sourcing justifies the extremely prominent and repetitive implication that Sailor is a white supremacist. The Southern Poverty Law Center and the Columbia Journalism Review are just trivial mentions, with no explanation as to what he has done that justifies that label. We further have two "guilt by association", regarding VDARE and the Unz Review (I note [1] is detailed sourcing on Mr. Unz's writings). I see the TabletMag reference which is worth something, but the weakly sourced guilt-by-implication needs to be removed. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 02:39, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Newspapers and magazines are "typically identified" in all kinds of ways that do not get mentioned in the ledes of their writers.I don't think so. We go out of our way to give VDARE a special tag because reliable sources go out of their way to give VDARE a special tag. They clearly believe that readers are best served by being informed that VDARE isn't just any magazine.
Why aren't UPI and Taki's Magazine given similar descriptions?I don't know. Maybe you should fix that. But WP:OTHERSTUFF is not generally considered a persuasive argument.
Is the issue that he's known specifically for writing for a white supremacy-associated website, rather than writing for a magazine called "VDARE"?I don't see why it would be. The issue is as I've stated it above. Generalrelative ( talk) 12:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Recently a large amount of content was deleted from this article, but that deletion was reverted to restore previous consensus language:
Undid revision 1150218449 by Leonstojka (talk) Restoring consensus language. Changes of this nature would require a new consensus
However, I see that another editor once again deleted the content contrary to the usual process of WP:BRD. This should not have been done, and when a new change is reverted, the next step is to discuss on the talk page here to develop a consensus, rather than just forcing a change. Hist9600 ( talk) 04:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
I see that there is a BLP primary sources tag on this article that has been there since April 2021. However, it does not look like the editor who added it specified exactly what the problem was beyond "primary sources". I'm looking at the article references and not seeing a lot of primary sources. Is this currently an issue that requires the BLP primary sources template? And if so, what are the specific issues? Hist9600 ( talk) 14:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't understand this revision from Generalrelative here. Primary sources are not against the rules. The sources given are reputably published, there is no interpretation of the source given in the article, and they "give statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source". If I'm truly in the wrong here, I'll yield here, but I do not understand why an article on Mr. Sailer wouldn't include him being cited by major newspapers. You won't find a secondary source anywhere on these claims because nobody is exactly writing books about how Mr. Sailer was cited in a NYT article. Pepper-0 ( talk) 20:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Sailer has exerted “a kind of subliminal influence across much of the right … even in the places where his controversial writing on race was decidedly unwelcome.” Sometimes that influence has not even been subliminal — David Brooks has cited Sailer in The New York Times on the correlation between white fertility rates and voting patterns, Times columnist Ross Douthat has referenced Sailer’s analogy between Breitbart-style conservatism and punk rock, and the economist Tyler Cowen has described him as “the most significant neo-reaction thinker today.”So yeah could probably make a more due mention of columnist citing him in the NYT and Times. Cheers. Zenomonoz ( talk) 21:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Steve Sailer is not extremeist, which is implied by the term far right. It implies knowledge of a person's philosophy and therefore is not factual.
This definition is also misleading about his occupation. 159.196.171.164 ( talk) 12:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".You may submit a new request in the appropriate WP:ER format. Please also include relevant sources. GordonGlottal ( talk) 13:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
The sources given, all secondary, cite people who called him a racist or some version of one. I don't disagree but I wonder if we need long sections devoted to how many experts called him a racist and in what way. It seems more encylopedic to provide links to his work and let readers draw that conclusion. It's a generally accepted that primary sources are preferred over secondary sources and yet none are of Steve Sailer's writings are linked to. Here is the that should be linked in the article.
https://vdare.com/articles/racial-reality-and-the-new-orleans-nightmare
His argument is based on studies demonstrating a disparity in mean IQs between races. Maybe it's a bad argument but it should be included if the article is about Steve Sailer and not people who don't like Steve Sailer. One excerpt that could be mentioned is: "Judging from their economic and educational statistics, New Orleans' blacks are not even an above-average group of African-Americans, such as you find in Atlanta or Seattle, but more like Miami's or Milwaukee's. About half are below the poverty line. With the national black average IQ around 85, New Orleans' mean black IQ would probably be in the lower 80s or upper 70s."
If the above paragraph is too controversial to print, perhaps there is no reason to have the article in the first place.
71.164.90.93 ( talk) 19:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possibleand
although specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Hope that clarifies things. Specific edit requests can be submitted through the WP:ER format. Happy editing! GordonGlottal ( talk) 00:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Steve Sailer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 730 days
![]() |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
![]() | Arbitration Ruling on Race and Intelligence The article Steve Sailer, along with other articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed), is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, described in a 2010 Arbitration Committee case where the articulated principles included:
If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the above guidelines. You may also wish to review the full arbitration case page. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. |
I don't feel that the sourcing justifies the extremely prominent and repetitive implication that Sailor is a white supremacist. The Southern Poverty Law Center and the Columbia Journalism Review are just trivial mentions, with no explanation as to what he has done that justifies that label. We further have two "guilt by association", regarding VDARE and the Unz Review (I note [1] is detailed sourcing on Mr. Unz's writings). I see the TabletMag reference which is worth something, but the weakly sourced guilt-by-implication needs to be removed. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 02:39, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Newspapers and magazines are "typically identified" in all kinds of ways that do not get mentioned in the ledes of their writers.I don't think so. We go out of our way to give VDARE a special tag because reliable sources go out of their way to give VDARE a special tag. They clearly believe that readers are best served by being informed that VDARE isn't just any magazine.
Why aren't UPI and Taki's Magazine given similar descriptions?I don't know. Maybe you should fix that. But WP:OTHERSTUFF is not generally considered a persuasive argument.
Is the issue that he's known specifically for writing for a white supremacy-associated website, rather than writing for a magazine called "VDARE"?I don't see why it would be. The issue is as I've stated it above. Generalrelative ( talk) 12:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Recently a large amount of content was deleted from this article, but that deletion was reverted to restore previous consensus language:
Undid revision 1150218449 by Leonstojka (talk) Restoring consensus language. Changes of this nature would require a new consensus
However, I see that another editor once again deleted the content contrary to the usual process of WP:BRD. This should not have been done, and when a new change is reverted, the next step is to discuss on the talk page here to develop a consensus, rather than just forcing a change. Hist9600 ( talk) 04:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
I see that there is a BLP primary sources tag on this article that has been there since April 2021. However, it does not look like the editor who added it specified exactly what the problem was beyond "primary sources". I'm looking at the article references and not seeing a lot of primary sources. Is this currently an issue that requires the BLP primary sources template? And if so, what are the specific issues? Hist9600 ( talk) 14:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't understand this revision from Generalrelative here. Primary sources are not against the rules. The sources given are reputably published, there is no interpretation of the source given in the article, and they "give statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source". If I'm truly in the wrong here, I'll yield here, but I do not understand why an article on Mr. Sailer wouldn't include him being cited by major newspapers. You won't find a secondary source anywhere on these claims because nobody is exactly writing books about how Mr. Sailer was cited in a NYT article. Pepper-0 ( talk) 20:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Sailer has exerted “a kind of subliminal influence across much of the right … even in the places where his controversial writing on race was decidedly unwelcome.” Sometimes that influence has not even been subliminal — David Brooks has cited Sailer in The New York Times on the correlation between white fertility rates and voting patterns, Times columnist Ross Douthat has referenced Sailer’s analogy between Breitbart-style conservatism and punk rock, and the economist Tyler Cowen has described him as “the most significant neo-reaction thinker today.”So yeah could probably make a more due mention of columnist citing him in the NYT and Times. Cheers. Zenomonoz ( talk) 21:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Steve Sailer is not extremeist, which is implied by the term far right. It implies knowledge of a person's philosophy and therefore is not factual.
This definition is also misleading about his occupation. 159.196.171.164 ( talk) 12:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".You may submit a new request in the appropriate WP:ER format. Please also include relevant sources. GordonGlottal ( talk) 13:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
The sources given, all secondary, cite people who called him a racist or some version of one. I don't disagree but I wonder if we need long sections devoted to how many experts called him a racist and in what way. It seems more encylopedic to provide links to his work and let readers draw that conclusion. It's a generally accepted that primary sources are preferred over secondary sources and yet none are of Steve Sailer's writings are linked to. Here is the that should be linked in the article.
https://vdare.com/articles/racial-reality-and-the-new-orleans-nightmare
His argument is based on studies demonstrating a disparity in mean IQs between races. Maybe it's a bad argument but it should be included if the article is about Steve Sailer and not people who don't like Steve Sailer. One excerpt that could be mentioned is: "Judging from their economic and educational statistics, New Orleans' blacks are not even an above-average group of African-Americans, such as you find in Atlanta or Seattle, but more like Miami's or Milwaukee's. About half are below the poverty line. With the national black average IQ around 85, New Orleans' mean black IQ would probably be in the lower 80s or upper 70s."
If the above paragraph is too controversial to print, perhaps there is no reason to have the article in the first place.
71.164.90.93 ( talk) 19:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possibleand
although specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Hope that clarifies things. Specific edit requests can be submitted through the WP:ER format. Happy editing! GordonGlottal ( talk) 00:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)