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Hi all. I have been trying to condense and streamline this article, and I saved the "criticism" section for last. As it stands, it is out of proportion in this article. Much of the information could be explained much more succinctly. Further, many sources are of questionable reliability. We need to get published sources as references, which can include court papers, etc. However, blogs and websites will likely not pass muster per WP:RS. I will be bold and make some changes I feel will improve this article, but if anyone has objections, I am happy to discuss them here. My goal is to get the NPOV warning off the top of the page. Thanks! Jokestress 00:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
My concern is that this so-called "article" is really being used to promote Mr. Barrett's numerous websites. There are approximately 20 links to his sites, that he owns and asks for donations. This, IMO, becomes a vanity page and link repository, even if these links were put there, not by him, but by his disciples. Mr. Barrett's wisdom shouldn't be quoted as the gospel by his disciples with a link to his 'websites' to prove he said it. Further tidying is necessary. Steth 03:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
(outdenting) Regarding credibility, it's very common on controversial articles to present both sides when POV criticisms are presented. The Bolen comment about Jarvis needs to have a link to the original document where Jarvis makes the alleged statements "under oath." Bolen's site is not enough--we need the original, not second-hand information. We need to specify which California case, etc, or it's going to need to come out per WP:BLP. Jokestress 05:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
What are the POV issues at this time? I'd like to get those addressed so we can remove the tag at the top of the article. This article is very close to being carefully sourced per WP:BLP. A list of any other issues that should be address would be appreciated. Thanks! Jokestress 09:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I beleive the list of "External links" serves only to increase traffic to Mr. Barrett's 'websites', sell his 'textbook', and increase donations to himself. Given that there are already several links to his privately-owned and operated 'websites' in the body of the homage, and they are completely unecessary, I think the whole list should be removed.
This will also remove any spectre of suggestion that WP is being used as a free infomercial for private enterprise and personal gain. Steth 12:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Please indicate which is his official page. Thanks Steth 19:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's the latest list of official Barrett sites:
Editor, Consumer Health Digest
Without any documentation for this, I suspect he is reducing the several thousand page content of Quackwatch, by dividing the subjects out to their respective topical sites. This is a gradual process that can take a long time. Just a hunch. That will make it much easier to find and search for information by topic. Right now Quackwatch (the original "flagship") is an enormous resource, with court cases, research documents, whole books, magazine articles, investigative reports, etc., written by many different experts in their respective fields, laypersons, journalists, etc.. -- Fyslee 20:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Good suggestion Levine, although the 'article' already has over 20 links to the hate-site Quackwarts and another dozen or so peddling his books. Doesn't that already enrich Barrett Enterprises?
It seems that Fsylee is an intimate of Stephen Barrett, knowledgable of his personal life and finances, judging by his various comments on several Talk pages to you and to me. So it is no wonder that he (Fyslee)would never miss an opportunity to post links to Mr. Barrett's numerous 'viewpoints of an ex-psychiatrist' websites in WP articles and talk pages (see above) driving traffic and fueling the donation machine. I find this to be very disingenuous and disconcerting, not only because of the intimacy thing, but also because he (Fsylee) helps out his pal (Mr. Barrett) with internet administration. Self-serving agenda? Hmmm. Incestuous?
I am not sure why Jokestress is insistent on supporting the use of WP as a free commercial/infomercial for Barrett Enterprises. Perhaps there is also an intimate connection. Any clue? Steth 01:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Although I would agree the Bolen's web site is not a paradigm of accuracy and fairness, far from it. In the same breath I can say the same for Barrett's web sites where only facts suited to the objectives of the sites ( and it's authors ) are listed, conveniently omitting other " inconvenient " facts. Barrett himself says he does not seek to be fair and balanced in his web sites. This should be enough to question his web sites as a reliable source of information. For example in the lawsuit between Cavitat Medical Technologies and Aetna, the countersuit by Aetna was thrown out of court by the judge but Barrett's web site made a huge fuss about the unproved allegations for many months as if they were factual. Later Aetna settled out of court... Still Barrett made a point of being critical of the ruling conveniently omitting the possibility that Aetna might have settled because they could not prove their allegations and knew that they could loose in court against Cavitat Med Tech, as the judge upheld Cavitat's lawsuit and it was schedule to go to court.
NATTO 07:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Judges have noted that his position as a public figure has weakened his ability to defend himself, since the plaintiff in such libel cases is required to show "actual malice," per the precedent in New York Times v. Sullivan, which states, "Because of the extremely high burden on the plaintiff, and the difficulty in proving essentially what is inside a person's head, such cases rarely, if ever prevail against public figures."
If that is so, the question is why does Barrett keep suing.... ? NATTO 00:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee: Yes, I had a look at the Bolen page. Interesting that Bolen is listed as " a self-proclaimed health care consumer advocate " when Barrett is " best known for his consumer advocacy ". Was Barrett hired by someone to do his job or did he appoint himself ? If he did not appoint himself then who is he working for ? NATTO 07:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Barrett made his fortune during his MD days, are you jokiing:
Here is his work experience from his own website:
Chief, Psychiatric Service, Scott Air Force Base Hospital, Illinois, 8/61-7/63 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Juvenile Court (half-time), 7/63-8/67 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Child Psychiatry Clinic (half-time), 7/63-1/66 Private practice of psychiatry, 8/63-12/93 Consultant, San Francisco Department of Welfare, 8/64-7/65 Consultant, school nurses, San Francisco Public Health Department, 8/65-12/65 Consultant, Parks Job Corps Camp, 12/65-1/66 Psychiatrist, Center For Special Problems (half-time), 2/66-8/67 Consultant, San Francisco Adult Probation Department, 8/66-8/67 Staff Psychiatrist, Allentown State Hospital (part-time), 9/67-7/77 Consultant, Pa. Board of Probation and Parole (research project), 11/67-2/69 Consultant, Lehigh Valley Mental Health Association, 12/67-2/69 Consultant, Lutheran Children's Home, 2/68-6/72 Psychiatrist, Allentown Hospital Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 4/68-6/90 Consultant, Pastoral Institute of the Lehigh Valley, 11/68-1/71 Consultant, Allentown Counseling Center for Alcoholism, 6/69-6/72 Consultant, Lehigh University Centennial School, 1/70-3/77 Psychiatrist, Muhlenberg Medical Center Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 6/71-6/86 Medical Director, Haven House (partial hospitalization program), 8/76-6/87 Consultant, Allentown Police Department (evaluation of police candidates), 8/80-3/85 Medical Director, NewVitae Partial Hospitalization Program, 8/90-3/91
Lets see, Air Force Service in the early '60s, that was about $300/month. Private practice, maybe made some money in that. However he had so many part-time public service positions (pay is horrible), full-time service positions (pay not that great)and consultant(pays sqaut for the most part, work infrequent)how did he do private practice? Maybe he had a shingle out but I doubt he had a lot of patients with so many part-time jobs and full-time jobs crossing over each other.
As far as consultanting goes, that can mean anywhere from 0-100 hours, from working pro-bono to making a few bucks, or a ton if you are great in your field (which would be hard not being board-certified). This doesn't look like the CV of someone who made a fortune. Trust me, public medical positions and working in clinics does not pay much. It is either the sign of a physican dedicated to helping the public or one that could not make it in private practice. However it is not the sign of someone making a fortune. Thats just the way it is. I wish physicans who worked in the public sector get paid more but that is not usually the case.-- MD1954 15:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The page should note that Dr. Barrett in not board certified. Dr. Barrett is suppose to be a consumer advocate and is doing this under the guise of a physician (Doctor). He does not say he is Mr. Stephen Barrett, but Dr. Stephen Barrett, MD.
89% of all MDs & DOs are board-certified by at least one board by the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS). The other 11% are newly graduated physicians; ones that could not pass the boards, or ones who just don’t care.
For whatever reason Dr. Barrett is not board-certified. Whatever the reason, it is hard to be a ‘health expert, advocate’ without at least being able to pass the board exams of your own specialty.
The page should note that Dr. Barrett in not board certified. Dr. Barrett is suppose to be a consumer advocate and is doing this under the guise of a physician (Doctor). He does not say he is Mr. Stephen Barrett, but Dr. Stephen Barrett, MD.
89% of all MDs & DOs are board-certified by at least one board by the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS). The other 11% are newly graduated physicians; ones that could not pass the boards, or ones who just don’t care.
For whatever reason Dr. Barrett is not board-certified. Whatever the reason, it is hard to be a ‘health expert, advocate’ without at least being able to pass the board exams of your own specialty.
The American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology (the one Dr. Barrett would be certified by) exams are not that difficult. There is no reason Dr. Barrett should not have his if he wants to be considered a health expert. Being a Doctor is not enough. As the old joke in medical school goes, “What does the person who graduated at the top of the class and the bottom of the class have in common? They are both called ‘Doctor’.”
As far as alertanvitve medicine goes, I find it humrous that some people are so critical of it when they have never seen a patient as a Medical Physican. Granted there is a TON of crap out there that is a waste of time or harmful. 85-90% of patients seen by General, Family, Emergency pyhscians are condtions that are stress-related. So when I hear somebody knock ‘mind-body connection’, I really feel bad for them as they keep taking all kinds of meds when simply relaxing will do.
The biggest problem with Dr. Barrett is that he throws out the baby with the bathwater. I remember learning about Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis. He had the novel idea about washing your hands and surgical instuments before you dealt with patients. He was rejected by the medical community because there was no scienctific proof, as the germ theory had not been discovered. Over time his claims were proven.
Semmelweis Reflex
The Semmelweis Reflex is the dismissing or rejecting out of hand any information, automatically, without thought, inspection, or experiment. The phrase stems from a number of people's personal experiences with the phenomena, and denotes the reactions of anyone who engages in such behaviour.
The problem with much of alertnative medicine is that sceinctific reasearch is not done. How is a pharamchetical going to make money on something like Vitaimin C? We were told to worry about the Military-Insturial Complex. We should also worry about the Pharmatiucal/Medical Establishment Complex. This is nothing knew, its been around for a long time.
To sum up, I think it should be noted that Dr. Barrett is not board-certified. It is true that not all Doctors are board-certified, you can still practice medicine. 11% of Doctors are not, of course MOST of them have just recieved their sheepskin. Since Dr. Barrett has been a physcian before most of the people reading this were born, what is his excuse? .-- MD1954 15:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee,
Since Richard Dawkins said it then it must be true!
Unless you have some sort of mystical powers, you don’t know what I am thinking. And stop throwing up the straw man argument. You are using that with your own rebuttal. Instead of worrying about semantics, why don’t you address the subject brought in my posting, Dr. Barrett’s lack of professional credentials? He is lacking board certification from the American Board of Medical Specialties. That is not just a nice thing to have. Almost every competent doctor in this country is board certified.
As witnessed in his case against Dr. Koren, not having the proper credentials can backfire in places like a court room. I don’t know one lawyer that would use a non-board certified physician on the stand as an expert medical witness.
So let’s get to my point. He is not board certified, he has not practiced in many years, and his work history is not impressive. Most of his work experience includes vague descriptions like ‘consultant’.
Fyslee, if I recall correctly you are a physical therapist, are you Board Certified by the ATPA?-- MD1954 22:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee. It is obvious that you are 100% pro-Barrett. In your point of view the man can do no wrong and those who do not agree with him are classified as such. It must be difficult for you to edit such an article in neutral point of view. This would normally be considered a good reason not to. As far as Barrett's habit of suing, you may also have omitted the possibility that he is doing so to intimidate those he is critical of. It may have worked in the past but as the general public understand that complementary and alternative practices do have benefits while orthodox medicine has it's limitations , they are beginning to understand better what health is all about and have a more nuanced view of the issues, unlike Barrett. Also being retired, his job ( livelihood ), is not at stake. He has established numerous and ever growing web sites critical of almost everything under the sun that is not medical orthodoxy, and not doing so in a fair and balanced way ( dixit Barrett himself ). Even for someone who is not prejudiced against or for Barrett , it is not difficult to see that there is a questionable side to his activities. As for Tim Bolen is it also clear that you hate him. However this article is about Stephen Barrett. NATTO 23:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Note: RubyQ added this comment and a lot of archived material:
Please see the archive at the top for old conversations. This page was getting too long, and it is common to archive old discussions. All the old information is there. Jokestress 23:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
For a web site that claim to inform the public, the practice of posting and leaving unproven allegations as if they were valid, is questionable and more in line with a blog or a web forum... Another example why Quackwatch can not be considered a reliable source of information. NATTO 06:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
David D. You have removed the posting on obsolete information. The point is simply that a web site that is meant to inform people on quackery and fraud should provide factual information that is kept ot date. If the page is dated , it should be eithe removed or updated. This was is a valid criticism based on factual information. Please explain why you do not see the point. NATTO 08:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's more from Paul Hartal:
Dated December 22, 1999, the Harvard affiliated Massachusetts General Hospital's Neurology Web Forum published on the Internet an article under the title :"PAC" Money for "quackwatch". It reveals that "the FDA and the Pharmaceutical Advertising Counsel ("PAC"), which represents some 35 major drug companies, have formed and co-founded a corporation under a joint letterhead, calling itself the National Council Against Health Fraud ("NCAHF")." Stephen Barrett, MD, who publishes "Quackwatch" on line, William Jarvis, MD, and others, are paid by PAC " to publicly discredit as unscientific or unknown any of all viable herbs, vitamins, homeopathic remedies or non-allopathic therapies, particularly those that are proven to have the most promise and present the greatest threat to the PAC members". [4]
Very interesting. The more you dig, the dirtier Barrett gets. Levine2112 06:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
1)I didn't post it on the article. I posted it here. 2)I posted it here to start conversation about what is said, not about where it was sourced. Levine2112 18:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
This needs to be sourced from a legal document, not from anti-barrett press releases:
Barrett claims to be a "medical expert", but failed his medical board certification exams. [5] [6] [7] [8] Approximated 89% of all practicing physicians are board certified. [9]
These are not reliable sources per WP:RS. Jokestress 06:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Jokestress. Here is the information about the court case in Pennsylvania:
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Court Case: Stephen Barrett, M.D. vs. Tedd Koren, D.C. and Koren Publications, Inc. Court of Common Pleas of Lehigh County for the State of Pennsylvania Case No.: 2002-C-1837
I do not know if the court documents are yet available online. Although Carlos Negrete must have the transcript and can be contacted at:
LAW OFFICES OF CARLOS F. NEGRETE Contact: Carlos F. Negrete San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675 Phone: 949.493.8115 Fax: 949.493.8170 email: mediarelations@healthfreedomlaw.com
NATTO 07:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The information quoted above by Levine is also found on Carlos Negrete's web site
[10].
Since he is the attorney that cross-examined Stephen Barrett at the trial, the information is highly likely to be true, unless Carlos Negrete is lying, and there is no evidence to question his credibility. NATTO 08:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
In addition if he was Board Certified it would be on his C.V.
[11] and it is not. That in itself does not prove he failed the Board exam, since he may have never attempted to take it, but does support the fact that he is not Board certified. I do agree with Jokestress that to say he failed the Board exam, the court transcript or another neutral document is needed. However the article can says that Barrett himself does not claim to be Board certified in Psychiatry and that since 89% of practicing physicians are board certified, a medical expert is expected to be so certified, and that does agree with the assertion. In fact if you have a look at his C.V. his medical experience is rather limited for someone who is critical of such a wide range of health modalities....
NATTO 22:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
On this issue, I doubt that all the attacks of Barrett's opponents are to be considered ad hominem. At the same time Barrett himself does use ad hominem attacks in certain cases. So this item needs improving since it is not presented in a fair and balanced way at the moment. NATTO 22:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe this is an Ad Hom attack Fyslee, but were you not named in a lawsuit with Dr. Barrett? I am just wondering about your objectivity.-- MD1954 17:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following section titled "Obsolete information" again.
This looks like original research. And seems to be invalid criticism since the page is dated, so it does not claim to be up to date. David D. (Talk) 02:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Jokestress. Thank you for making my point. Two short phrases in comparison to many pages of information on Aetna's unproven counterclaim... And one of the phrase is to critizise the judge's ruling.... " Narrow legal grounds " is Barrett's POV. Please read the ruling. Please note also that the court ruling is not posted on Quackwatch. And the court ruling is CLEAR. Clearly not balanced information. As far as the warning letter, the FDA must have received a satisfactory reply since no further action appears to have been taken. The FDA sends a lot of warning letters as part of it's regulatory activities. As far as the title of the sub-heading , I did suggest that the posting be improved by other editors. Deleting is not improving. NATTO 05:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The issue of Board certification is now settled: Dr. Barrett has confirmed that he is not and has never been Board certified. The information can then remain in the article. One remaining question that still remain to be answered. Did he fail the Board exam ? NATTO 03:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I note that Fyslee has altered the postings recently made by Stephen Barrett under the username sbinfo. Hopefully this is not going to become habitual. I can only imagine the results if everyone decided to go an alter or highlight postings of other editors for whatever reason.08:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
My god. You defend the guy to the hilt and you correct his entries! What are you, his nursemaid? Tell him and let him correct it himself for godsake! Maybe you could tell him to stop chopping up everyones entries with his rebuttals--
MD1954 17:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I don’t know how to say it any simpler. Being board certified ( http://www.abms.org/member.asp) is almost necessary to be a physician in this country. If you are to be respected in your field you need it. , even if you are just a regular family doctor.
I don’t know if SBinfo is really Dr. Barrett. Since there is no way to verify that I don’t want to make an assumption that it is Dr. Barrett. So I will speak of what being board certification means in general.
The purpose of being certified is to make sure a physician is providing the best care to their patients. The certification is designed to prove that the physician has the knowledge and skills to give the patient the best care available in their chosen specialty. You have to do this every six-ten years. This is to make sure the physician is still learning new information in their field. Medicine is a living science and art.
There are a lot of bad doctors out there. Certification doesn’t weed out all the bad doctors. Doctors can still be wrong, make mistakes or be jerks. However, these doctors have shown that medical speaking they have met the standards to give the best care to their capabilities. It is so common these days to be board certified that it is usually not even advertised that a doctor is board certified. It is listed in their CVs, but for example it won’t say on their shingle, Dr. John Smith MD-Board Certified.
Many hospitals, practices and clinics will not employee physicians without board certification, especially if they are at the point where they are eligible to take them or they have failed them. The American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology (ABPN) have been around since 1934. When Dr. Barrett started his career being board certified was not to the level that is today. By the ‘70’s and ’80 (while Dr. Barrett was still practicing) that changed to the standard of today.
Becoming a physician is very hard. You have to have excellent grades, community service, be a little neurotic at times, and persistent, patient, and dedicated. While most people look at their undergrad years as fun and all they need for their careers, physician look at their undergrad years as their perquisites to get into medical school. When you start applying to medical schools it becomes a nightmare. After having had many interviews, doing the MCATS and spending thousands of dollars on travel to the prospective schools, lodging, suits, and all the extras you then go more nuts. You become to know your mailman very well as you sit staring out the window waiting to see if they have those approval/rejection letters. Then if you get in you have four long years of the toughest school possible that will leave you in heavy debt. Of course with that comes the thousands of hours of rotation and then taking your medical licensing exams. Then comes internship, the residency, and for some fellowship.
So 10-12 years after you started all this you have to find a job while being heavily in debt, but ready to help people.
You learn a lot of stuff in med school, and since medicine is always evolving there is always more to learn. Being board certified means at the time you are up-to-date in your field. But even more important it shows you are willing to learn and grow in your specialty, or that at least you have the capability. Granted some people just do it to get a better position. However to keep it you need to stay educated in the field.
So saying all that I do not understand how a physician would not do all that they could to be at the top of their field. Being a physician is a career. Most people become doctors have the type of personality that drives them to be the best, or they do when they first start out. That is why I don’t respect physicians that are not board certified when they are eligible to become certified. Physicians are dealing with people’s lives. They should be up to speed in their filed. If they can’t even pass their board exams I don’t want them even talking to me, let alone treat me.
Giving speeches, writing books, or appearing in court does not show you have credentials. Many of those people that Dr. Barrett criticizes have also done those things. And from reading quackwatch, he doesn’t call those 'alternative health advocates' experts because of the books they have written or the speeches they gave.-- MD1954 16:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Barrett’s CV is not that hard to interpret. It is a mish-mash and crossover of all kinds of position, meaning Dr. Barrett worked more than a hundred hours a week or worked part-time positions. Looking at his CV just now its shows that the page was last updated in June of 2005. Yesterday many of positions were listed as part-time, however today that seems to have been taken out.
This is what it said yesterday:
Chief, Psychiatric Service, Scott Air Force Base Hospital, Illinois, 8/61-7/63 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Juvenile Court (half-time), 7/63-8/67 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Child Psychiatry Clinic (half-time), 7/63-1/66 Private practice of psychiatry, 8/63-12/93 Consultant, San Francisco Department of Welfare, 8/64-7/65 Consultant, school nurses, San Francisco Public Health Department, 8/65-12/65 Consultant, Parks Job Corps Camp, 12/65-1/66 Psychiatrist, Center For Special Problems (half-time), 2/66-8/67 Consultant, San Francisco Adult Probation Department, 8/66-8/67 Staff Psychiatrist, Allentown State Hospital (part-time), 9/67-7/77 Consultant, Pa. Board of Probation and Parole (research project), 11/67-2/69 Consultant, Lehigh Valley Mental Health Association, 12/67-2/69 Consultant, Lutheran Children's Home, 2/68-6/72 Psychiatrist, Allentown Hospital Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 4/68-6/90 Consultant, Pastoral Institute of the Lehigh Valley, 11/68-1/71 Consultant, Allentown Counseling Center for Alcoholism, 6/69-6/72 Consultant, Lehigh University Centennial School, 1/70-3/77 Psychiatrist, Muhlenberg Medical Center Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 6/71-6/86 Medical Director, Haven House (partial hospitalization program), 8/76-6/87 Consultant, Allentown Police Department (evaluation of police candidates), 8/80-3/85 Medical Director, NewVitae Partial Hospitalization Program, 8/90-3/91
All those part-times/half-times have been deleted.
Also he lists many memberships (Medical). While they are genuine he lists himself being the chairman, Board of Directors for Quackwatch Inc. He has this listed as a medical membership and appointment. So I would take it he represents quackwatch as a medical person, not a layman. If that is the case than his medical work experience and status are of relevance.-- MD1954 16:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
He is a doctor. He testifies as a doctor. He runs quackwatch as a doctor. It is relevant. Certification was as important back in '93 as it is today. During his whole medical career certification was important. It shows his capabilities as a doctor. If you were one you would understand. 89% is relevant. Would you go to a doctor that is not board ceftified? -- MD1954 20:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Reading the numerous posting of Sbinfo ( presumably Dr. Barrett as per Fyslee and Jokestress ) that have been inserted into the talk page in between other postings, it seems that the judges who find against him or the NCAHF are always wrong... However when a judge find against one of his targets he quickly accept the verdict as correct and post as many of the court transcript and documents he can on his web sites for all to see. He even post documents that are offered in evidence by the side he supports, even if the judge rules against them in the end.... Interestingly he does not post any documents when the rulings do not go along with his views. NATTO 21:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Credibility is a significant issue, especially in a legal context. For a Superior Court judge to openly question the credibility of a witness in such a clear manner is also significant. Thus it must not be relegated to a reference. In fact credibility is also a core issue when someone wishes to be openly critical of so many others. NATTO 21:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Let's work toward NPOV on this.
I suggest this:
Once we get those other stats, it will be relevant. Jokestress 23:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, here is the offical numbers from the American Board of Medical Specialties
http://www.abms.org/Downloads/Statistics/Table9_Chart1.pdf
The year Dr. Barrett Retired 80.9% of all doctors were board certified. Is this good enough?-- MD1954 12:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you joking?! You have the numbers now for 1989, 1990, 1991,1992,1993;all years Dr. Barrett was practicing. He had an opportunity every one of those years to become board certified. I am sure between 1967 and 1993 he could of learned enough about Neurology like countless doctors did before him.
Let people read the history of the ABMS ( http://www.abms.org/history.asp#) to see if the agree with your very LOOSE MIS-interpretation of it. The only thing that happened in 1970 was a name change and a better way to run the organization! According to your logic it would not matter if he took the test in 1967 if the ABMS did not exist!
So there is the source. Dr. Barrett was a practicing physician in the years 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 & 1993. He failed to take the exam. So he was a practicing non-board certified physician. He was also running qauckwatch, giving speeches and testifying in court as a non-board certified physician. This was at a time when MOST doctors were board certified. The only doctors not certified were Osteopathic doctors certified by the American Osteopathic Association Specialty Boards, doctors in residency that had not enough experience to take board exams, doctors who flunked the boards, doctors who knew they could not pass them, doctors from overseas who are going back to their countries after residency & internship or doctors who just did not care to take them.
This is getting ridiculous. Pretty soon I am going to want a copy of Dr. Barrett’s diploma to see if he was really a doctor. I am going to ask for transcriptions of the TV shows that appear in his profile to see if he really was a guest. Does he really live in Allentown?
You do not need the number of Board Certified Doctors in 1967. I will concede that it is fine he was not board certified in 1967. But what about 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993? Did you ever even think he might have had to retire since in 1993 when 80.9% of doctors had board certification when he did not? I am not saying that’s why he did retire, but could it not be a possibility? How hard do you think it is to get position when 8 out of 10 doctors are board certified?
By the way- the ABMS is not the one that makes you board certifed, it is the medical board themselves. The American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology has been around since 1934 and gave their first exam in 1935.
I think we have enough here.--
MD1954 19:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Emotions aside. Please Levine. The first thing they teach you in med school is to forget you have emotions. I don't understand how you took my statements and thought I was angry. I find this fun to a point. Its been along time since I had explain what the ABMS is, and I love this stuff. The thing is people who have never taken a board, gone to medical school, or even took someones pulse think they know more than an organization than you, even having belongeded to it for more than half your life. Its kind of funny. Most docs would not bother trying to explain these things. However I like to inform the uneducated people about these things, Doctor does mean teacher.
You are being inaccurate about the ABMS not existing before 1970. It was under a different name. Also the ABMS is not the one that certifies you. It is the individual boards. The 89% of doctors certified is the total number of doctors certified by all the board combined. Since only 100% can be qualified by one board the averages would then say that 89% would be about the same number for all the boards, with some boards probably closer to 100%. When doctor’s say there are board certified they are saying their individual boards qualify them. The ABMS is organization the coordinates those boards so other doctors and non-physicians know what is happening in the different medical specialities.
By 1970 there were many new fields since 1933. Also many doctors were receiving more than one certification. There was also an explosion in doctors and patients because of the baby boom, so better organization was needed. Even the ABMS will say that they have been around since 1933. This exert is from their website.
Since 1934, official recognition of specialty boards in medicine has been achieved by the collaborative efforts of the Advisory Board for Medical Specialties, its successor, the American Board of Medical Specialties, and the AMA Council on Medical Education. In 1948 these efforts were formalized through the establishment of the Liaison Committee for Specialty Boards (LCSB). A jointly approved publication, Essentials for Approval of Examining Boards in Medicine Specialties, established standards. This document has undergone several revisions through the years and remains the standard for recognition of new specialty boards.
In 1975, the ABMS approved membership for representatives of the public by establishing three voting public members, formerly called members at-large, positions. At its 50th Anniversary in 1983, the composition of its membership was the 20 Primary Boards, two Conjoint Boards, and one Conjoint Board (Modified) comprising the "Regular Members," the five "Associate Member" organizations and three "Public Member" positions. In 1989 the American Medical Association was approved as the sixth Associate Member.
It does not matter when Dr. Barrett took the Boards the first time. If you want to say he took his board in 1967 and it does not matter, fine. You would be wrong, but fine. What about the years 1970-1993? What is the excuse for those 23 years?
Anyway here is what needs to be changed and I will do it. I am taking out the following:
“According to the ABMS, which was not organized until after Barrett's testing, about 81% of physicians were Board certified when Barrett retired in 1993.” And replacing it with: “According to the ABMS about 81% of physicians were Board certified when Barrett retired in 1993.”
I also took this out:
"The ABMS website notes that the modern centralized ABMS was created in 1970, several years after Barrett took the exam.”
That he failed the test in 1967 means nothing. He was only a doctor for a few years when he took the test and one for 26 years after he took it. You can take the Boards as many times as you want. There is usually 8-10x a year you can take it. Lets even lowball it and average it out to 5 times a year. Than means there was 130 chances for him to retake the test and he did not. According the Sbinfo post (if he really is Dr. Barrett) he took the test and failed them. And his attitude was, “Well, I don’t need the boards. I am never going to need to know Neurology. Even though this stuff has been established by my peers to be helpful information to help my patient.” Shortly after that qauckwatch was formed.
I really don’t know how much simpler I can make this. I took off my physician hat as much as I could. I don’t think there is anyone at this point who does not get what I am saying.-- MD1954 20:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
When Dr. Barrett was practicing in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 & 1993 most doctors were certified. Also do you think most doctors before 1989 were not qualified and that only in the past 17 it has become important.
Here is a good example. My father received his board certification in 1958. At the time about half of all jobs were not open to non-board certified doctors. He got a position once against older; more experienced doctors because they were not certified. My Uncle became a Psychiatrist in 1966. He was not board certified; he did not have the experience. He had a job at a hospital. Three years after he got the job they were going to fire him unless he became board certified. In the ‘70’s that became very common.
Dr. Barrett was a practicing in 1989 when 76% of all doctors.
Dr. Barrett could have taken that test numerous times. He was a physician with almost 30 years of experience in 1989 when 76% of doctors were qualified, so with all the experience & training he should of.-- MD1954 22:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Those are good points Levine.
I just got a second confirmation about the number of physicians that were board certified by the Psychiatry and Neurology Board. Just like I posted yesterday and the deleted till I found out for sure. It was 247 as stated by jokestress. That by the way is a high number. Not as many people were graduating from medical school at that time. Don’t forget that most most of the newer doctors taking the exam in 1967 were born in the ‘30s during the hieght of the depression, like Dr. Barrett. That time period has a much lower birthrate. When babyboom doctors started practicing in the ‘70s thats when you saw the number of board certifications pass 1,000 (1976) for this field. After that the average has been about 1,500. Which is needed if you want to hold any position in research, hospital, clinics, legal experts, etc etc.
The 247 also doesn’t include the thousands of doctors who were certified before that. Also the field of Psychiatry was not as popular in the early-mid ‘60s. It really exploded in the ’70 and ’80 with the advent of anti-pyschotic meds and more widespread use of lithium. Before that most people (compared to today) did not go to a Psychiatrist, making it not a popular speciality and mainly one for research or working in a state asylum (not the best work enivorment).
Also Dr. Barrett was hitting his prime in the ‘70s, when was in his ‘40s. Don’t forget that is when a doctor is usually fully trained and starting to really starting to excel. He should have been able to pass those board exams.
And Jokestress, looking at his CV it does not look like he had the best career. Look at his CV before it was changed a few days ago. (somehow the update for the page says June, 2005…)
Chief, Psychiatric Service, Scott Air Force Base Hospital, Illinois, 8/61-7/63 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Juvenile Court (half-time), 7/63-8/67 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Child Psychiatry Clinic (half-time), 7/63-1/66 Private practice of psychiatry, 8/63-12/93 Consultant, San Francisco Department of Welfare, 8/64-7/65 Consultant, school nurses, San Francisco Public Health Department, 8/65-12/65 Consultant, Parks Job Corps Camp, 12/65-1/66 Psychiatrist, Center For Special Problems (half-time), 2/66-8/67 Consultant, San Francisco Adult Probation Department, 8/66-8/67 Staff Psychiatrist, Allentown State Hospital (part-time), 9/67-7/77 Consultant, Pa. Board of Probation and Parole (research project), 11/67-2/69 Consultant, Lehigh Valley Mental Health Association, 12/67-2/69 Consultant, Lutheran Children's Home, 2/68-6/72 Psychiatrist, Allentown Hospital Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 4/68-6/90 Consultant, Pastoral Institute of the Lehigh Valley, 11/68-1/71 Consultant, Allentown Counseling Center for Alcoholism, 6/69-6/72 Consultant, Lehigh University Centennial School, 1/70-3/77 Psychiatrist, Muhlenberg Medical Center Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 6/71-6/86 Medical Director, Haven House (partial hospitalization program), 8/76-6/87 Consultant, Allentown Police Department (evaluation of police candidates), 8/80-3/85 Medical Director, NewVitae Partial Hospitalization Program, 8/90-3/91
There was something last week about him teaching a health class in the late ’80 at a Pennsylvania State School but that seems to have disappeared too. Look at all those part time jobs, consultant jobs, and cross over of so many jobs, all while running qauckwatch. This looks like a resume of someone getting paid a few bucks here and not being able to get a steady, well paying respected position.
See what happens when you are not board certified.
Also qauckwatch started a couple of years after he flunked the boards. Most doctors want to be great and well known in their field. Since that didn’t happen, starting qauckwatch could have been the recognition he was looking for. I am not saying it was, just guessing.
Ok, lets finish this. I made the changes already. We have the facts. Lets close this out now and move on to the next thing.-- MD1954 12:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee, Fyslee Fyslee. Poking your head up again. I copied his CV from his website last week. After I put it in and commented on it it was changed on his website. Look at the previous posts for godakes! I even wrote on there how the page was last update was listed as June 2005 when it was changed the day before!!!!!
Also here is where I get my source for quackwatch being founded log ago, right from his own website: Chairman, Board of Directors, Quackwatch, Inc. (originally called Lehigh Valley Committee Against Health Fraud, Inc.), 6/70-
It was just renamed. The town I live in was renamed 2 years ago after being that way for 213 years. Does that mean it did not exist before. Just a question for you, are you a PT in the U.S. or overseas?-- MD1954 12:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
My Friend, I copied it exactly from his page. My URL was to his website till he changed it. I did not add in the words part-time or half time. It did not matter what the archived pages say. That can easily be manipulated. I just tried it with my own website! I changed four pages from 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and the update date hasn’t changed. Pretty easy to do! Nice try!
I have it posted on here exactly as it was on HIS website! I am not the changing records. If he wants to prove otherwise he can come on here and explain it. He can also explain how someone could hold three and four jobs full-time positions at the same time, all while being a consultant, a lecturer, running qauckwatch, testifying in courts, working with multiple organizations, and the million other things he did, while raising a family! Did he sleep or his he really Dr. Who and can travel in Time?!
Also how come as such a medical expert he doesn’t have on his CV that he is a member of the American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association!
Please don’t tell me about violations. It was from his website! When I was looking at his website two months ago it said part and half-time. He has been on here since I posted that. Here is one of his responses after I posted on his CV: (if SBinfo really is him)
Dr. Barrett responds: Since my posted curriculum vitae doesn't explain what I did, whoever wrote the above doesn't doesn't have the slightest idea what it involved. In addition, the whole discussion of my psychiatric experience hasn't the slightest relevance to my writing activities. I have functioned as an investigative reporter for more than 30 years and have sufficient knowledge and enough help from other experts to do what I do effectively. Sbinfo 00:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Not one comment about his CV saying part-time or half-time in ANY of his further posts.
I love your other comment:
Not everyone has to have the same ambitions you may have had. Many other geniuses and influential people have walked to the beat of a different drummer, and taken the path less trodden. That is nothing to be ashamed of, nor to be denigrated.
My ambitions were to be the best and most helpful in my field. Is that not what Dr. Barrett at one time probably wanted? Would you go to a doctor who thought otherwise? Would you go to a brain surgeon who was not good enough to pass his board. A pyscharist is a brain surgeon who does not operate with a scapel. If you ever havethe misfortune to see one would you not want one that cared enough and was smart enough to pass his own boards? Boards whose purpose is to protect patient and phyiscan.
'''Genius''', you said. Man that is a good one. Dr. Frankstein though he was a genusis. Of course he accomplished something.
Now that I think of it quackwatch is a good name for Dr. Barrett’s website. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…. Anyway, good to hear from you again.-- MD1954 15:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The list of references is getting longer and longer, adding bulk to the article. It seems much more efficient to add the link to the reference in the text. This way readers can access the reference as they read without having to scroll down the bottom each time. NATTO 00:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
This whole discussion about board certification statistics seems to be ignoring a simple fact, best illustrated by the same principle at work in Age-adjusted life expectancy. "Age-adjusted board certification" would reveal a similar pattern - the farther back in time one goes, the lower a percentage of MDs were board certified, in relation to later dates. Each age bracket should be judged according to the norms at the time, and not by an unfair and illegitimate comparison with other age brackets at a much later date. In all professions there exists a certain type of "grandfather clause," which allows previously educated professionals to continue to work using their education, even if it was at a lower standard than the one now required. Experience and continuing education not only help to keep them up to date, but also means that they are often the professors teaching those new young grads.
Now is there anyone here among the Barrett skeptics who has enough conscience and sense of decency to be willing to include this fact in their calculations and editing? Jokestress has been doing what she could to bring up this idea, but no one seems to be willing to allow it to sway their POV, which they are including in the article, against good common sense and fairness. As an obvious POV edit it won't survive. Making it NPOV now will help it to survive. -- Fyslee 20:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
As an lurker in this debate i would mention four things.
All in all I do think that case being built against his medical knowledge, weighted so heavily on the judge and the fact he failed a board exam, is not really that convincing. David D. (Talk) 05:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
To repeat: all the article says is 1) He failed Board certification, 2) Chose not to try again 3) Has never been Board certified 3) in 1993 when he chose to let his license lapse , 81% of M.D. were Board certified. I fail to see were is the POV in that. The fact that in 2005, 89% are Board certified shows a clear trend also. Simply facts. I fail to see where the undue weight is as per David D. A lot has been written on the talk page and it looks like we are going in circle. If we put in the article that Board certification is not that important for Barrett and his work then that will definitely be POV. NATTO 08:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Age-adjusted board certification, I love this. If only it were true. All those times to take the boards could have been spared for everyone. I showed this to everyone and we love this it!! ROFL! I just love it when non-physician come up with this stuff. Fylsee, maybe we could tell you how to run your career!
There is no grandfather clauses for the boards like you are thinking. The only clauses there were was the amount of time to get the ceritifaction renewed.
The Boards Dr. Barrett took first started in 1935! What the hell kind of grandfather clause should he of gotten? (He was born in 1933!)Many doctors lost there jobs when certification became mandatory for many positions and they did not test or failed.-- MD1954 15:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
With regard to the Licensure and credentials section I have copy edited it to a version that i think is less POV and a more representative presentation of the material that is cited. I suggest that the 89% be cut out since it seems to be original research and, in my opinion, not really relevent to the point being made. probably this section should be discussed further on the talk page here before any major edits occur in the main article. David D. (Talk) 09:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The 20% was mostly doctors who would get there certification through Osteopathic Boards, not ABMS Boards, residents who are not eligible to take the boards, doctors who trained here but were leaving for their home countries after all their training, doctors who flunked the test (the biggest reason), doctor’s who knew they would flunk, physicians who had left medicine but were still on the rolls,or those who did not care.-- MD1954 15:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
If SBinfo really is Dr. Bartlett than Bartlett stated that he flunked his boards, not critics. Flunking part of your board exams is like being 'kinda pregnant.' If you have two parts to a board exam and you pass the first and flunked the second, you flunked the exams. Thats because you have to retake the WHOLE exam, parts I & II, to become a member of the board. You could pass part I and have to retake it 20x if you flunk part II every time.-- MD1954 17:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
David, medical students don't take challenging course?! Man you really don’t know anything about getting into medical school! You can’t take basket weaving 101 and similar classes to get a high GPA and have any chance of going to medical school.
First you need to have a good GPA, not the best, in whatever your undergrad degree is in. Each medical school looks at each class. For most schools you need to have taken general chemistry, organic chemistry, biology and physics, just to name a few. Since everyone does that many take advance classes in these subjects. Also you usually need things like community service, show you have leadership skills, usually through sports and similar items. And of course the MCATs are important. If those scores are bad kiss your chances goodbye. The MCATs are not that hard if you have been a good student and have prepared.
Getting into medical school is as hard now as in Dr. Barrett’s day, maybe even harder in Dr. Barrett’s day. In his day there were less spots in schools because there was less people in the country. People did not live as long and there were not as many people in health care programs. Also most non-European countries did not have medical schools and there were not as many offshore schools as today (most were not recognized in the U.S. anyway), so most people around the world came here or went to England.
Also Osteopathic medicine was not as well recognized so many people tried to get into an MD program while today many people compete for both.
Taking the boards is not like taking a pop quiz. The Board exams are things doctors should already know. If Dr. Barrett could not pass the exams because he did not learn enough neurology during his residency, that is his fault. It is not a secret what is on the test. He should have prepared himself better and found the experience somehow. Since 89% of doctors are certified today and 76% were four years before he retired its shows almost every physician can pass them.-- MD1954 17:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The schools look for the harder classes! Its better to have a B in a critical think class than an A+ in regurgitation class. Schools are eaiser to get into in some ways. One there is a lot more schools with more slots. You can go to the West Indies and get a degree now. Also Ostepathic schools are now fully accepted. Also many people choose other careers since money is not as much as a facot anymore. Ever hear this joke? " My plumber gave me a bill. I told him this was more than my doctor charges. He said he knew he use to be a doctor."
Its also harder to get into schoolfor the most part because of the the large amount of people applying. For the most part it use to be mostly white men. Before it was harder for miniorties and women to get in. Now people of every race, religon, and creed are getting in. Which is good because these groups were not repersented. There was a time when there were black only hospitals and the were very underfunded, and blacks suffered for no good reason. I think a good solution is to open more medical schools, that way more qualified people get in. There is plenty of qualifed people who would make great doctors, just not enough slots for them all. We need more doctors anyway.
I agree with you about the testing. I believe the MCAT is highly overrated. While it is a good tool many students do fry their brains trying to get ready for it and then retake it over and over for a better score. Also considering the amount of students that drop out of medical school, I wish there could be a better way to screen poeple. I have met plenty of 'pre-med' people who are doing something else besides medicine.
Most schools make you shadow a doctor. That means you follow a doctor around to see what he does. I think that if people did that for a couple of months, and also shadow at free clinics, ERs, morgue, be with a doc when they tell someone they are dying than that would weed out plenty.
We do need plenty of doctors. But we don't need med students who drop out or get fried and take up a valauble space for more deserving people.-- MD1954 18:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
You know David when you really think about school in general rates test too highly. While I believe it is more important in college the way kids are pressured these days in grade school is just wrong. I see kids with bookbags full of homework that wieghs more than them. They don't get out as much and lack a lot of the fun most of us had as kids.-- MD1954 19:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I failed to respond to Natto when s/he wrote this point and it may warrant its own section. Natto wrote:
I am unclear about what he needs to know 'now', that would serve him by taking the boards. He has years of medical experience and he retired in 1993. Did he just stop learning in 1993? Or worse forget everything. Maybe he knows more now than he did in 1993; now he has time to do research, read journals etc. Can one only be an expert in a field if they have sat exams in the field? In my experience this is not true. There are many examples of people successfully switching fields in science. None of this criticism is concrete. i would prefer to see evidence that he is incompetent or at least not good at his job. So far we have a valid datum point that he failed the boards. Is there more? David D. (Talk) 16:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Barrett as sbinfo wrote this earlier: Dr. Barrett responds: It had no effect on my career. "MD1954" is correct that nowadays, lack of certification would make it difficult to repeat what I did. However, when I began practice (early 1960s), nobody cared. Requirements for hospital staff membership and HMO participation began to tighten during the 1980s, but I was grandfathered on the staffs of the hospital clinics where I worked and was not dependent on HMOs for private patients. Sbinfo 16:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Reading his comments, it is clear the Board certification was very relevant as far the 1980s. It is also known that his activities related to what he calls quackery began in the 1980s. It is also known that during that time he still had an active licence and that he was and still uses his M.D. credentials in these activities, including testifiying in courts as well as providing advice to lawyers. Thus it is clear that Board certification is relevant. While, according to Dr. Barrett, it was not relevant in the 1960s, it became relevant in the 1980's. He may have been grandfathered into his hospital job but that does not automatically extend to his activities in Quackwatch which , by nature, were designed to seek as much attention as possible. Finally by his own admission, Dr. Barrett knew that Board certification is very relevant. In spite of this he chose not to try again to be Board certified at any time from 1967 to 1993. In light of the fact that he has a self-appointed activity that involves making value judgement about others and their work, it becomes event more important that his credentials, at least. match that of his M.D. colleagues.
Thus Board certification is relevant and the percentage of Board certified M.D.s is relevant because that is the standard of the 1980s up to today, when he is still active in the same activities. The way it is presently written , it simply states a fact and does not appear to be POV. It can become POV in the mind of the reader if they see a relevance between his lack of Board certification and his work as a medical expert today, but Wikipedia , surely, does not want to control what readers can think ? The information should remain in the article. NATTO 16:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It mattered to a judge.-- MD1954 21:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
" For years, Barrett has touted himself as a “medical expert” on “quackery” in healthcare and has assisted in dozens of court cases as an expert. Also, Barrett has testified that was called upon by the FDA, FTC and other governmental agencies for his purported expertise. He was the subject of many magazine interviews, including Time Magazine and featured on television interviews on ABC’s 20/20, NBC’s Today Show and PBS. He has gained media fame by his outspoken vocal disgust and impatience over natural or non-medical healthcare, including his criticisms of two time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling.... At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed “expert testimony” as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases as such. Also, Barrett had said that he was a “legal expert” even though he had no formal legal training.
The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial. During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA)." [37]
This is one source. The information herein contained has been confirmed by other sources, including court transcripts and postings made by Sbinfo on this talk page. NATTO 03:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Reference no. 22 doesn't lead anywhere and needs to be fixed. -- Fyslee 21:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see documentation for precisely what claims to expertise have been made by Dr. Barrett. I know he has made some, but this page is assuming alot of things which he hasn't claimed, and we need to get it right.
Let's delimit the claims issue:
Let's get verifiable documentation to use in the article. Right now a lot of opinions are being discussed, but that's not good enough for the article.
My outline above can form the basis for a section on his expertise, and the viewpoints on it. -- Fyslee 17:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
MD1954 seems to have some uncertainty about Barrett's identity here.
That fact should alert you to several rules of Wikipedia. You are now dealing with Barrett himself, and personal attacks on him in any capacity are personal attacks on another Wikipedia editor. Disrespect needs to cease. (That applies to all of us.) You must assume good faith and keep in mind that he is a living person, and thus this article about him is protected by certain rules that do not apply to other articles. Criticisms are certainly allowed, but they must be verifiable, and made in a NPOV manner. Treat him as you yourself wish to be treated, with dignity and respect. This is a collaborative effort.
Jimbo Wales has this to say about living persons and articles about them:
About "bad editors" he has this to say:
".....editors who don't stop to think that reverting someone who is trying to remove libel about themselves is a horribly stupid thing to do." - Jimmy Wales [38]
Steve Bennett wrote:
Absolutely not. Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia. - Jimmy Wales [39]
-- Fyslee 17:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Tell me were in assume good faith I am suppose to believe somebody is a certain person, maybe I missed it. I love it how some of us are digging sources up to verify our points and I am just to assume that SBinfo is Dr. Barrett. And I am just to assume you know Dr. Barret. I should just 'ask the old timers.' Great sources! Hi old timers. Does Fyslee know Dr. Barrett. Till there is someway that Dr. Barrett will state that he is SBinfo, we can't assume it is.
Under the Verifiability section of wikpedia, we need more than what you are saying.
A good way to look at the distinction between verifiability and truth is with the following example. Suppose you are writing a Wikipedia entry on a famous physicist's Theory X, which has been published in peer-reviewed journals and is therefore an appropriate subject for a Wikipedia article. However, in the course of writing the article, you contact the physicist and he tells you: "Actually, I now believe Theory X to be completely false." Even though you have this from the author himself, you cannot include the fact that he said it in your Wikipedia entry.
Why not? Because it is not verifiable in a way that would satisfy the Wikipedia readership or other editors. The readers don't know who you are. You can't include your telephone number so that every reader in the world can call you for confirmation. And even if they could, why should they believe you?''
How can I e-mail him and then tell everyone it was Dr. Barrett? How can I prove that to everyone? We need to see it in writing. Putting it on quackwatch seems the easist, most relable way to me.-- MD1954 19:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I found something about what he had to say on his website: http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/board.html
-- MD1954 19:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
He could of stated better the importance of ceritication. He could of also put the % of doctors that were board certified. Also the fact that it hard to advance in a medical career without it.
I would like to hear him state his personal thoughts about certification in relation to his career.-- MD1954 20:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Sbinfo, I will address you as that since I can’t confirm you are Dr. Barrett.
With all due respect Sbinfo, certification has been important for long before the 1980’s. Certification was still important in the 1970’s and 1980’s, I’m also speaking for personal experience.
Looking at Dr. Barrett’s CV, I see many crossover of full-time (?), part-time, consulting jobs (which can mean anything) and positions at public mental clinics/hospital. I would never discredit public mental hospitals, these days it seems we need to bring some of them back. However looking at Dr. Barrett’s CV I see only part-time positions when employed as a psychiatrist in these institutions. I do not understand why no fulltime employment was attained. While I can imagine maybe later in life a psychiatrist working part-time to pursue other goals, I can’t imagine one in the prime of his career. I would assume that the ‘70s and ’80 when Dr. Barrett was raising his children. That would not be the best time to be working part-time positions, financially that is.
While I agree with the grandfathering, it was for part-time positions. And many organizations may not have grand fathered.
I see it say private practice, however this is vague. With so many part-time positions, consultant jobs, and working with different organizations at the same time, it would be kind of hard to have a profitable private practice.
Board certification has been important for a while. While it not mandatory to practice, it is the gold standard of any medical specialty. And since Dr. Barrett is doing his advocating as an MD, and he was not able to attain the standard in his field, I think it should be noted.
Also I see no membership to the American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association.
I am not saying that Dr. Barrett had these positions because of not having board certification. But I am trying to explain how important was and still is.
I am not saying he should not be able to do what he is doing. But it should be noted in his profile. (Which it is)-- MD1954 20:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
To reinforce what I said, I do believe Dr. Barrett pobably helped many sick people in his career. My only point is that him being not board certifed should be mentioned. Even thought neurology was not relevant to his type of practice, it was relevant enough to be included in the boards as determined by fellow psychiatrists. These skills could always be learned. I don’t know his motivations for him not retaking the boards. But most doctors do like to have the certifications not only for their patients care but also for their own personal satisfaction and standards of excellence.-- MD1954 21:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted becuase it was also the standard when Dr. Barrett was still practicing. It also caused problems in a court trail, and will likely be brought up by other critics. I agree that many of his critics are not qualified. One person he does point out as a quack is Dr. Andrew Weil and I find that a little riduclous. Thats when the boards are important to, when one MD bashes another.
To get back on track I do say we should include that he is not board certified and leave it at that. No disclaimers. -- MD1954 21:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I had not heard of LaSalle, and I went to grad school in Chicago. From a Tucson Weekly article on this institution:
I found the CV that list Dr. Barrett's part-time & half-time positions.
http://www.mlmwatch.org/10Bio/biovitae.html
I am only showing this because it was 'implied' that I had lied about it.-- MD1954 20:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
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Hi all. I have been trying to condense and streamline this article, and I saved the "criticism" section for last. As it stands, it is out of proportion in this article. Much of the information could be explained much more succinctly. Further, many sources are of questionable reliability. We need to get published sources as references, which can include court papers, etc. However, blogs and websites will likely not pass muster per WP:RS. I will be bold and make some changes I feel will improve this article, but if anyone has objections, I am happy to discuss them here. My goal is to get the NPOV warning off the top of the page. Thanks! Jokestress 00:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
My concern is that this so-called "article" is really being used to promote Mr. Barrett's numerous websites. There are approximately 20 links to his sites, that he owns and asks for donations. This, IMO, becomes a vanity page and link repository, even if these links were put there, not by him, but by his disciples. Mr. Barrett's wisdom shouldn't be quoted as the gospel by his disciples with a link to his 'websites' to prove he said it. Further tidying is necessary. Steth 03:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
(outdenting) Regarding credibility, it's very common on controversial articles to present both sides when POV criticisms are presented. The Bolen comment about Jarvis needs to have a link to the original document where Jarvis makes the alleged statements "under oath." Bolen's site is not enough--we need the original, not second-hand information. We need to specify which California case, etc, or it's going to need to come out per WP:BLP. Jokestress 05:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
What are the POV issues at this time? I'd like to get those addressed so we can remove the tag at the top of the article. This article is very close to being carefully sourced per WP:BLP. A list of any other issues that should be address would be appreciated. Thanks! Jokestress 09:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I beleive the list of "External links" serves only to increase traffic to Mr. Barrett's 'websites', sell his 'textbook', and increase donations to himself. Given that there are already several links to his privately-owned and operated 'websites' in the body of the homage, and they are completely unecessary, I think the whole list should be removed.
This will also remove any spectre of suggestion that WP is being used as a free infomercial for private enterprise and personal gain. Steth 12:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Please indicate which is his official page. Thanks Steth 19:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's the latest list of official Barrett sites:
Editor, Consumer Health Digest
Without any documentation for this, I suspect he is reducing the several thousand page content of Quackwatch, by dividing the subjects out to their respective topical sites. This is a gradual process that can take a long time. Just a hunch. That will make it much easier to find and search for information by topic. Right now Quackwatch (the original "flagship") is an enormous resource, with court cases, research documents, whole books, magazine articles, investigative reports, etc., written by many different experts in their respective fields, laypersons, journalists, etc.. -- Fyslee 20:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Good suggestion Levine, although the 'article' already has over 20 links to the hate-site Quackwarts and another dozen or so peddling his books. Doesn't that already enrich Barrett Enterprises?
It seems that Fsylee is an intimate of Stephen Barrett, knowledgable of his personal life and finances, judging by his various comments on several Talk pages to you and to me. So it is no wonder that he (Fyslee)would never miss an opportunity to post links to Mr. Barrett's numerous 'viewpoints of an ex-psychiatrist' websites in WP articles and talk pages (see above) driving traffic and fueling the donation machine. I find this to be very disingenuous and disconcerting, not only because of the intimacy thing, but also because he (Fsylee) helps out his pal (Mr. Barrett) with internet administration. Self-serving agenda? Hmmm. Incestuous?
I am not sure why Jokestress is insistent on supporting the use of WP as a free commercial/infomercial for Barrett Enterprises. Perhaps there is also an intimate connection. Any clue? Steth 01:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Although I would agree the Bolen's web site is not a paradigm of accuracy and fairness, far from it. In the same breath I can say the same for Barrett's web sites where only facts suited to the objectives of the sites ( and it's authors ) are listed, conveniently omitting other " inconvenient " facts. Barrett himself says he does not seek to be fair and balanced in his web sites. This should be enough to question his web sites as a reliable source of information. For example in the lawsuit between Cavitat Medical Technologies and Aetna, the countersuit by Aetna was thrown out of court by the judge but Barrett's web site made a huge fuss about the unproved allegations for many months as if they were factual. Later Aetna settled out of court... Still Barrett made a point of being critical of the ruling conveniently omitting the possibility that Aetna might have settled because they could not prove their allegations and knew that they could loose in court against Cavitat Med Tech, as the judge upheld Cavitat's lawsuit and it was schedule to go to court.
NATTO 07:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Judges have noted that his position as a public figure has weakened his ability to defend himself, since the plaintiff in such libel cases is required to show "actual malice," per the precedent in New York Times v. Sullivan, which states, "Because of the extremely high burden on the plaintiff, and the difficulty in proving essentially what is inside a person's head, such cases rarely, if ever prevail against public figures."
If that is so, the question is why does Barrett keep suing.... ? NATTO 00:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee: Yes, I had a look at the Bolen page. Interesting that Bolen is listed as " a self-proclaimed health care consumer advocate " when Barrett is " best known for his consumer advocacy ". Was Barrett hired by someone to do his job or did he appoint himself ? If he did not appoint himself then who is he working for ? NATTO 07:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Barrett made his fortune during his MD days, are you jokiing:
Here is his work experience from his own website:
Chief, Psychiatric Service, Scott Air Force Base Hospital, Illinois, 8/61-7/63 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Juvenile Court (half-time), 7/63-8/67 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Child Psychiatry Clinic (half-time), 7/63-1/66 Private practice of psychiatry, 8/63-12/93 Consultant, San Francisco Department of Welfare, 8/64-7/65 Consultant, school nurses, San Francisco Public Health Department, 8/65-12/65 Consultant, Parks Job Corps Camp, 12/65-1/66 Psychiatrist, Center For Special Problems (half-time), 2/66-8/67 Consultant, San Francisco Adult Probation Department, 8/66-8/67 Staff Psychiatrist, Allentown State Hospital (part-time), 9/67-7/77 Consultant, Pa. Board of Probation and Parole (research project), 11/67-2/69 Consultant, Lehigh Valley Mental Health Association, 12/67-2/69 Consultant, Lutheran Children's Home, 2/68-6/72 Psychiatrist, Allentown Hospital Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 4/68-6/90 Consultant, Pastoral Institute of the Lehigh Valley, 11/68-1/71 Consultant, Allentown Counseling Center for Alcoholism, 6/69-6/72 Consultant, Lehigh University Centennial School, 1/70-3/77 Psychiatrist, Muhlenberg Medical Center Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 6/71-6/86 Medical Director, Haven House (partial hospitalization program), 8/76-6/87 Consultant, Allentown Police Department (evaluation of police candidates), 8/80-3/85 Medical Director, NewVitae Partial Hospitalization Program, 8/90-3/91
Lets see, Air Force Service in the early '60s, that was about $300/month. Private practice, maybe made some money in that. However he had so many part-time public service positions (pay is horrible), full-time service positions (pay not that great)and consultant(pays sqaut for the most part, work infrequent)how did he do private practice? Maybe he had a shingle out but I doubt he had a lot of patients with so many part-time jobs and full-time jobs crossing over each other.
As far as consultanting goes, that can mean anywhere from 0-100 hours, from working pro-bono to making a few bucks, or a ton if you are great in your field (which would be hard not being board-certified). This doesn't look like the CV of someone who made a fortune. Trust me, public medical positions and working in clinics does not pay much. It is either the sign of a physican dedicated to helping the public or one that could not make it in private practice. However it is not the sign of someone making a fortune. Thats just the way it is. I wish physicans who worked in the public sector get paid more but that is not usually the case.-- MD1954 15:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The page should note that Dr. Barrett in not board certified. Dr. Barrett is suppose to be a consumer advocate and is doing this under the guise of a physician (Doctor). He does not say he is Mr. Stephen Barrett, but Dr. Stephen Barrett, MD.
89% of all MDs & DOs are board-certified by at least one board by the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS). The other 11% are newly graduated physicians; ones that could not pass the boards, or ones who just don’t care.
For whatever reason Dr. Barrett is not board-certified. Whatever the reason, it is hard to be a ‘health expert, advocate’ without at least being able to pass the board exams of your own specialty.
The page should note that Dr. Barrett in not board certified. Dr. Barrett is suppose to be a consumer advocate and is doing this under the guise of a physician (Doctor). He does not say he is Mr. Stephen Barrett, but Dr. Stephen Barrett, MD.
89% of all MDs & DOs are board-certified by at least one board by the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS). The other 11% are newly graduated physicians; ones that could not pass the boards, or ones who just don’t care.
For whatever reason Dr. Barrett is not board-certified. Whatever the reason, it is hard to be a ‘health expert, advocate’ without at least being able to pass the board exams of your own specialty.
The American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology (the one Dr. Barrett would be certified by) exams are not that difficult. There is no reason Dr. Barrett should not have his if he wants to be considered a health expert. Being a Doctor is not enough. As the old joke in medical school goes, “What does the person who graduated at the top of the class and the bottom of the class have in common? They are both called ‘Doctor’.”
As far as alertanvitve medicine goes, I find it humrous that some people are so critical of it when they have never seen a patient as a Medical Physican. Granted there is a TON of crap out there that is a waste of time or harmful. 85-90% of patients seen by General, Family, Emergency pyhscians are condtions that are stress-related. So when I hear somebody knock ‘mind-body connection’, I really feel bad for them as they keep taking all kinds of meds when simply relaxing will do.
The biggest problem with Dr. Barrett is that he throws out the baby with the bathwater. I remember learning about Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis. He had the novel idea about washing your hands and surgical instuments before you dealt with patients. He was rejected by the medical community because there was no scienctific proof, as the germ theory had not been discovered. Over time his claims were proven.
Semmelweis Reflex
The Semmelweis Reflex is the dismissing or rejecting out of hand any information, automatically, without thought, inspection, or experiment. The phrase stems from a number of people's personal experiences with the phenomena, and denotes the reactions of anyone who engages in such behaviour.
The problem with much of alertnative medicine is that sceinctific reasearch is not done. How is a pharamchetical going to make money on something like Vitaimin C? We were told to worry about the Military-Insturial Complex. We should also worry about the Pharmatiucal/Medical Establishment Complex. This is nothing knew, its been around for a long time.
To sum up, I think it should be noted that Dr. Barrett is not board-certified. It is true that not all Doctors are board-certified, you can still practice medicine. 11% of Doctors are not, of course MOST of them have just recieved their sheepskin. Since Dr. Barrett has been a physcian before most of the people reading this were born, what is his excuse? .-- MD1954 15:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee,
Since Richard Dawkins said it then it must be true!
Unless you have some sort of mystical powers, you don’t know what I am thinking. And stop throwing up the straw man argument. You are using that with your own rebuttal. Instead of worrying about semantics, why don’t you address the subject brought in my posting, Dr. Barrett’s lack of professional credentials? He is lacking board certification from the American Board of Medical Specialties. That is not just a nice thing to have. Almost every competent doctor in this country is board certified.
As witnessed in his case against Dr. Koren, not having the proper credentials can backfire in places like a court room. I don’t know one lawyer that would use a non-board certified physician on the stand as an expert medical witness.
So let’s get to my point. He is not board certified, he has not practiced in many years, and his work history is not impressive. Most of his work experience includes vague descriptions like ‘consultant’.
Fyslee, if I recall correctly you are a physical therapist, are you Board Certified by the ATPA?-- MD1954 22:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee. It is obvious that you are 100% pro-Barrett. In your point of view the man can do no wrong and those who do not agree with him are classified as such. It must be difficult for you to edit such an article in neutral point of view. This would normally be considered a good reason not to. As far as Barrett's habit of suing, you may also have omitted the possibility that he is doing so to intimidate those he is critical of. It may have worked in the past but as the general public understand that complementary and alternative practices do have benefits while orthodox medicine has it's limitations , they are beginning to understand better what health is all about and have a more nuanced view of the issues, unlike Barrett. Also being retired, his job ( livelihood ), is not at stake. He has established numerous and ever growing web sites critical of almost everything under the sun that is not medical orthodoxy, and not doing so in a fair and balanced way ( dixit Barrett himself ). Even for someone who is not prejudiced against or for Barrett , it is not difficult to see that there is a questionable side to his activities. As for Tim Bolen is it also clear that you hate him. However this article is about Stephen Barrett. NATTO 23:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Note: RubyQ added this comment and a lot of archived material:
Please see the archive at the top for old conversations. This page was getting too long, and it is common to archive old discussions. All the old information is there. Jokestress 23:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
For a web site that claim to inform the public, the practice of posting and leaving unproven allegations as if they were valid, is questionable and more in line with a blog or a web forum... Another example why Quackwatch can not be considered a reliable source of information. NATTO 06:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
David D. You have removed the posting on obsolete information. The point is simply that a web site that is meant to inform people on quackery and fraud should provide factual information that is kept ot date. If the page is dated , it should be eithe removed or updated. This was is a valid criticism based on factual information. Please explain why you do not see the point. NATTO 08:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's more from Paul Hartal:
Dated December 22, 1999, the Harvard affiliated Massachusetts General Hospital's Neurology Web Forum published on the Internet an article under the title :"PAC" Money for "quackwatch". It reveals that "the FDA and the Pharmaceutical Advertising Counsel ("PAC"), which represents some 35 major drug companies, have formed and co-founded a corporation under a joint letterhead, calling itself the National Council Against Health Fraud ("NCAHF")." Stephen Barrett, MD, who publishes "Quackwatch" on line, William Jarvis, MD, and others, are paid by PAC " to publicly discredit as unscientific or unknown any of all viable herbs, vitamins, homeopathic remedies or non-allopathic therapies, particularly those that are proven to have the most promise and present the greatest threat to the PAC members". [4]
Very interesting. The more you dig, the dirtier Barrett gets. Levine2112 06:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
1)I didn't post it on the article. I posted it here. 2)I posted it here to start conversation about what is said, not about where it was sourced. Levine2112 18:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
This needs to be sourced from a legal document, not from anti-barrett press releases:
Barrett claims to be a "medical expert", but failed his medical board certification exams. [5] [6] [7] [8] Approximated 89% of all practicing physicians are board certified. [9]
These are not reliable sources per WP:RS. Jokestress 06:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Jokestress. Here is the information about the court case in Pennsylvania:
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Court Case: Stephen Barrett, M.D. vs. Tedd Koren, D.C. and Koren Publications, Inc. Court of Common Pleas of Lehigh County for the State of Pennsylvania Case No.: 2002-C-1837
I do not know if the court documents are yet available online. Although Carlos Negrete must have the transcript and can be contacted at:
LAW OFFICES OF CARLOS F. NEGRETE Contact: Carlos F. Negrete San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675 Phone: 949.493.8115 Fax: 949.493.8170 email: mediarelations@healthfreedomlaw.com
NATTO 07:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The information quoted above by Levine is also found on Carlos Negrete's web site
[10].
Since he is the attorney that cross-examined Stephen Barrett at the trial, the information is highly likely to be true, unless Carlos Negrete is lying, and there is no evidence to question his credibility. NATTO 08:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
In addition if he was Board Certified it would be on his C.V.
[11] and it is not. That in itself does not prove he failed the Board exam, since he may have never attempted to take it, but does support the fact that he is not Board certified. I do agree with Jokestress that to say he failed the Board exam, the court transcript or another neutral document is needed. However the article can says that Barrett himself does not claim to be Board certified in Psychiatry and that since 89% of practicing physicians are board certified, a medical expert is expected to be so certified, and that does agree with the assertion. In fact if you have a look at his C.V. his medical experience is rather limited for someone who is critical of such a wide range of health modalities....
NATTO 22:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
On this issue, I doubt that all the attacks of Barrett's opponents are to be considered ad hominem. At the same time Barrett himself does use ad hominem attacks in certain cases. So this item needs improving since it is not presented in a fair and balanced way at the moment. NATTO 22:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe this is an Ad Hom attack Fyslee, but were you not named in a lawsuit with Dr. Barrett? I am just wondering about your objectivity.-- MD1954 17:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following section titled "Obsolete information" again.
This looks like original research. And seems to be invalid criticism since the page is dated, so it does not claim to be up to date. David D. (Talk) 02:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Jokestress. Thank you for making my point. Two short phrases in comparison to many pages of information on Aetna's unproven counterclaim... And one of the phrase is to critizise the judge's ruling.... " Narrow legal grounds " is Barrett's POV. Please read the ruling. Please note also that the court ruling is not posted on Quackwatch. And the court ruling is CLEAR. Clearly not balanced information. As far as the warning letter, the FDA must have received a satisfactory reply since no further action appears to have been taken. The FDA sends a lot of warning letters as part of it's regulatory activities. As far as the title of the sub-heading , I did suggest that the posting be improved by other editors. Deleting is not improving. NATTO 05:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The issue of Board certification is now settled: Dr. Barrett has confirmed that he is not and has never been Board certified. The information can then remain in the article. One remaining question that still remain to be answered. Did he fail the Board exam ? NATTO 03:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I note that Fyslee has altered the postings recently made by Stephen Barrett under the username sbinfo. Hopefully this is not going to become habitual. I can only imagine the results if everyone decided to go an alter or highlight postings of other editors for whatever reason.08:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
My god. You defend the guy to the hilt and you correct his entries! What are you, his nursemaid? Tell him and let him correct it himself for godsake! Maybe you could tell him to stop chopping up everyones entries with his rebuttals--
MD1954 17:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I don’t know how to say it any simpler. Being board certified ( http://www.abms.org/member.asp) is almost necessary to be a physician in this country. If you are to be respected in your field you need it. , even if you are just a regular family doctor.
I don’t know if SBinfo is really Dr. Barrett. Since there is no way to verify that I don’t want to make an assumption that it is Dr. Barrett. So I will speak of what being board certification means in general.
The purpose of being certified is to make sure a physician is providing the best care to their patients. The certification is designed to prove that the physician has the knowledge and skills to give the patient the best care available in their chosen specialty. You have to do this every six-ten years. This is to make sure the physician is still learning new information in their field. Medicine is a living science and art.
There are a lot of bad doctors out there. Certification doesn’t weed out all the bad doctors. Doctors can still be wrong, make mistakes or be jerks. However, these doctors have shown that medical speaking they have met the standards to give the best care to their capabilities. It is so common these days to be board certified that it is usually not even advertised that a doctor is board certified. It is listed in their CVs, but for example it won’t say on their shingle, Dr. John Smith MD-Board Certified.
Many hospitals, practices and clinics will not employee physicians without board certification, especially if they are at the point where they are eligible to take them or they have failed them. The American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology (ABPN) have been around since 1934. When Dr. Barrett started his career being board certified was not to the level that is today. By the ‘70’s and ’80 (while Dr. Barrett was still practicing) that changed to the standard of today.
Becoming a physician is very hard. You have to have excellent grades, community service, be a little neurotic at times, and persistent, patient, and dedicated. While most people look at their undergrad years as fun and all they need for their careers, physician look at their undergrad years as their perquisites to get into medical school. When you start applying to medical schools it becomes a nightmare. After having had many interviews, doing the MCATS and spending thousands of dollars on travel to the prospective schools, lodging, suits, and all the extras you then go more nuts. You become to know your mailman very well as you sit staring out the window waiting to see if they have those approval/rejection letters. Then if you get in you have four long years of the toughest school possible that will leave you in heavy debt. Of course with that comes the thousands of hours of rotation and then taking your medical licensing exams. Then comes internship, the residency, and for some fellowship.
So 10-12 years after you started all this you have to find a job while being heavily in debt, but ready to help people.
You learn a lot of stuff in med school, and since medicine is always evolving there is always more to learn. Being board certified means at the time you are up-to-date in your field. But even more important it shows you are willing to learn and grow in your specialty, or that at least you have the capability. Granted some people just do it to get a better position. However to keep it you need to stay educated in the field.
So saying all that I do not understand how a physician would not do all that they could to be at the top of their field. Being a physician is a career. Most people become doctors have the type of personality that drives them to be the best, or they do when they first start out. That is why I don’t respect physicians that are not board certified when they are eligible to become certified. Physicians are dealing with people’s lives. They should be up to speed in their filed. If they can’t even pass their board exams I don’t want them even talking to me, let alone treat me.
Giving speeches, writing books, or appearing in court does not show you have credentials. Many of those people that Dr. Barrett criticizes have also done those things. And from reading quackwatch, he doesn’t call those 'alternative health advocates' experts because of the books they have written or the speeches they gave.-- MD1954 16:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Barrett’s CV is not that hard to interpret. It is a mish-mash and crossover of all kinds of position, meaning Dr. Barrett worked more than a hundred hours a week or worked part-time positions. Looking at his CV just now its shows that the page was last updated in June of 2005. Yesterday many of positions were listed as part-time, however today that seems to have been taken out.
This is what it said yesterday:
Chief, Psychiatric Service, Scott Air Force Base Hospital, Illinois, 8/61-7/63 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Juvenile Court (half-time), 7/63-8/67 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Child Psychiatry Clinic (half-time), 7/63-1/66 Private practice of psychiatry, 8/63-12/93 Consultant, San Francisco Department of Welfare, 8/64-7/65 Consultant, school nurses, San Francisco Public Health Department, 8/65-12/65 Consultant, Parks Job Corps Camp, 12/65-1/66 Psychiatrist, Center For Special Problems (half-time), 2/66-8/67 Consultant, San Francisco Adult Probation Department, 8/66-8/67 Staff Psychiatrist, Allentown State Hospital (part-time), 9/67-7/77 Consultant, Pa. Board of Probation and Parole (research project), 11/67-2/69 Consultant, Lehigh Valley Mental Health Association, 12/67-2/69 Consultant, Lutheran Children's Home, 2/68-6/72 Psychiatrist, Allentown Hospital Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 4/68-6/90 Consultant, Pastoral Institute of the Lehigh Valley, 11/68-1/71 Consultant, Allentown Counseling Center for Alcoholism, 6/69-6/72 Consultant, Lehigh University Centennial School, 1/70-3/77 Psychiatrist, Muhlenberg Medical Center Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 6/71-6/86 Medical Director, Haven House (partial hospitalization program), 8/76-6/87 Consultant, Allentown Police Department (evaluation of police candidates), 8/80-3/85 Medical Director, NewVitae Partial Hospitalization Program, 8/90-3/91
All those part-times/half-times have been deleted.
Also he lists many memberships (Medical). While they are genuine he lists himself being the chairman, Board of Directors for Quackwatch Inc. He has this listed as a medical membership and appointment. So I would take it he represents quackwatch as a medical person, not a layman. If that is the case than his medical work experience and status are of relevance.-- MD1954 16:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
He is a doctor. He testifies as a doctor. He runs quackwatch as a doctor. It is relevant. Certification was as important back in '93 as it is today. During his whole medical career certification was important. It shows his capabilities as a doctor. If you were one you would understand. 89% is relevant. Would you go to a doctor that is not board ceftified? -- MD1954 20:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Reading the numerous posting of Sbinfo ( presumably Dr. Barrett as per Fyslee and Jokestress ) that have been inserted into the talk page in between other postings, it seems that the judges who find against him or the NCAHF are always wrong... However when a judge find against one of his targets he quickly accept the verdict as correct and post as many of the court transcript and documents he can on his web sites for all to see. He even post documents that are offered in evidence by the side he supports, even if the judge rules against them in the end.... Interestingly he does not post any documents when the rulings do not go along with his views. NATTO 21:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Credibility is a significant issue, especially in a legal context. For a Superior Court judge to openly question the credibility of a witness in such a clear manner is also significant. Thus it must not be relegated to a reference. In fact credibility is also a core issue when someone wishes to be openly critical of so many others. NATTO 21:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Let's work toward NPOV on this.
I suggest this:
Once we get those other stats, it will be relevant. Jokestress 23:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, here is the offical numbers from the American Board of Medical Specialties
http://www.abms.org/Downloads/Statistics/Table9_Chart1.pdf
The year Dr. Barrett Retired 80.9% of all doctors were board certified. Is this good enough?-- MD1954 12:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you joking?! You have the numbers now for 1989, 1990, 1991,1992,1993;all years Dr. Barrett was practicing. He had an opportunity every one of those years to become board certified. I am sure between 1967 and 1993 he could of learned enough about Neurology like countless doctors did before him.
Let people read the history of the ABMS ( http://www.abms.org/history.asp#) to see if the agree with your very LOOSE MIS-interpretation of it. The only thing that happened in 1970 was a name change and a better way to run the organization! According to your logic it would not matter if he took the test in 1967 if the ABMS did not exist!
So there is the source. Dr. Barrett was a practicing physician in the years 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 & 1993. He failed to take the exam. So he was a practicing non-board certified physician. He was also running qauckwatch, giving speeches and testifying in court as a non-board certified physician. This was at a time when MOST doctors were board certified. The only doctors not certified were Osteopathic doctors certified by the American Osteopathic Association Specialty Boards, doctors in residency that had not enough experience to take board exams, doctors who flunked the boards, doctors who knew they could not pass them, doctors from overseas who are going back to their countries after residency & internship or doctors who just did not care to take them.
This is getting ridiculous. Pretty soon I am going to want a copy of Dr. Barrett’s diploma to see if he was really a doctor. I am going to ask for transcriptions of the TV shows that appear in his profile to see if he really was a guest. Does he really live in Allentown?
You do not need the number of Board Certified Doctors in 1967. I will concede that it is fine he was not board certified in 1967. But what about 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993? Did you ever even think he might have had to retire since in 1993 when 80.9% of doctors had board certification when he did not? I am not saying that’s why he did retire, but could it not be a possibility? How hard do you think it is to get position when 8 out of 10 doctors are board certified?
By the way- the ABMS is not the one that makes you board certifed, it is the medical board themselves. The American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology has been around since 1934 and gave their first exam in 1935.
I think we have enough here.--
MD1954 19:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Emotions aside. Please Levine. The first thing they teach you in med school is to forget you have emotions. I don't understand how you took my statements and thought I was angry. I find this fun to a point. Its been along time since I had explain what the ABMS is, and I love this stuff. The thing is people who have never taken a board, gone to medical school, or even took someones pulse think they know more than an organization than you, even having belongeded to it for more than half your life. Its kind of funny. Most docs would not bother trying to explain these things. However I like to inform the uneducated people about these things, Doctor does mean teacher.
You are being inaccurate about the ABMS not existing before 1970. It was under a different name. Also the ABMS is not the one that certifies you. It is the individual boards. The 89% of doctors certified is the total number of doctors certified by all the board combined. Since only 100% can be qualified by one board the averages would then say that 89% would be about the same number for all the boards, with some boards probably closer to 100%. When doctor’s say there are board certified they are saying their individual boards qualify them. The ABMS is organization the coordinates those boards so other doctors and non-physicians know what is happening in the different medical specialities.
By 1970 there were many new fields since 1933. Also many doctors were receiving more than one certification. There was also an explosion in doctors and patients because of the baby boom, so better organization was needed. Even the ABMS will say that they have been around since 1933. This exert is from their website.
Since 1934, official recognition of specialty boards in medicine has been achieved by the collaborative efforts of the Advisory Board for Medical Specialties, its successor, the American Board of Medical Specialties, and the AMA Council on Medical Education. In 1948 these efforts were formalized through the establishment of the Liaison Committee for Specialty Boards (LCSB). A jointly approved publication, Essentials for Approval of Examining Boards in Medicine Specialties, established standards. This document has undergone several revisions through the years and remains the standard for recognition of new specialty boards.
In 1975, the ABMS approved membership for representatives of the public by establishing three voting public members, formerly called members at-large, positions. At its 50th Anniversary in 1983, the composition of its membership was the 20 Primary Boards, two Conjoint Boards, and one Conjoint Board (Modified) comprising the "Regular Members," the five "Associate Member" organizations and three "Public Member" positions. In 1989 the American Medical Association was approved as the sixth Associate Member.
It does not matter when Dr. Barrett took the Boards the first time. If you want to say he took his board in 1967 and it does not matter, fine. You would be wrong, but fine. What about the years 1970-1993? What is the excuse for those 23 years?
Anyway here is what needs to be changed and I will do it. I am taking out the following:
“According to the ABMS, which was not organized until after Barrett's testing, about 81% of physicians were Board certified when Barrett retired in 1993.” And replacing it with: “According to the ABMS about 81% of physicians were Board certified when Barrett retired in 1993.”
I also took this out:
"The ABMS website notes that the modern centralized ABMS was created in 1970, several years after Barrett took the exam.”
That he failed the test in 1967 means nothing. He was only a doctor for a few years when he took the test and one for 26 years after he took it. You can take the Boards as many times as you want. There is usually 8-10x a year you can take it. Lets even lowball it and average it out to 5 times a year. Than means there was 130 chances for him to retake the test and he did not. According the Sbinfo post (if he really is Dr. Barrett) he took the test and failed them. And his attitude was, “Well, I don’t need the boards. I am never going to need to know Neurology. Even though this stuff has been established by my peers to be helpful information to help my patient.” Shortly after that qauckwatch was formed.
I really don’t know how much simpler I can make this. I took off my physician hat as much as I could. I don’t think there is anyone at this point who does not get what I am saying.-- MD1954 20:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
When Dr. Barrett was practicing in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 & 1993 most doctors were certified. Also do you think most doctors before 1989 were not qualified and that only in the past 17 it has become important.
Here is a good example. My father received his board certification in 1958. At the time about half of all jobs were not open to non-board certified doctors. He got a position once against older; more experienced doctors because they were not certified. My Uncle became a Psychiatrist in 1966. He was not board certified; he did not have the experience. He had a job at a hospital. Three years after he got the job they were going to fire him unless he became board certified. In the ‘70’s that became very common.
Dr. Barrett was a practicing in 1989 when 76% of all doctors.
Dr. Barrett could have taken that test numerous times. He was a physician with almost 30 years of experience in 1989 when 76% of doctors were qualified, so with all the experience & training he should of.-- MD1954 22:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Those are good points Levine.
I just got a second confirmation about the number of physicians that were board certified by the Psychiatry and Neurology Board. Just like I posted yesterday and the deleted till I found out for sure. It was 247 as stated by jokestress. That by the way is a high number. Not as many people were graduating from medical school at that time. Don’t forget that most most of the newer doctors taking the exam in 1967 were born in the ‘30s during the hieght of the depression, like Dr. Barrett. That time period has a much lower birthrate. When babyboom doctors started practicing in the ‘70s thats when you saw the number of board certifications pass 1,000 (1976) for this field. After that the average has been about 1,500. Which is needed if you want to hold any position in research, hospital, clinics, legal experts, etc etc.
The 247 also doesn’t include the thousands of doctors who were certified before that. Also the field of Psychiatry was not as popular in the early-mid ‘60s. It really exploded in the ’70 and ’80 with the advent of anti-pyschotic meds and more widespread use of lithium. Before that most people (compared to today) did not go to a Psychiatrist, making it not a popular speciality and mainly one for research or working in a state asylum (not the best work enivorment).
Also Dr. Barrett was hitting his prime in the ‘70s, when was in his ‘40s. Don’t forget that is when a doctor is usually fully trained and starting to really starting to excel. He should have been able to pass those board exams.
And Jokestress, looking at his CV it does not look like he had the best career. Look at his CV before it was changed a few days ago. (somehow the update for the page says June, 2005…)
Chief, Psychiatric Service, Scott Air Force Base Hospital, Illinois, 8/61-7/63 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Juvenile Court (half-time), 7/63-8/67 Psychiatrist, San Francisco Child Psychiatry Clinic (half-time), 7/63-1/66 Private practice of psychiatry, 8/63-12/93 Consultant, San Francisco Department of Welfare, 8/64-7/65 Consultant, school nurses, San Francisco Public Health Department, 8/65-12/65 Consultant, Parks Job Corps Camp, 12/65-1/66 Psychiatrist, Center For Special Problems (half-time), 2/66-8/67 Consultant, San Francisco Adult Probation Department, 8/66-8/67 Staff Psychiatrist, Allentown State Hospital (part-time), 9/67-7/77 Consultant, Pa. Board of Probation and Parole (research project), 11/67-2/69 Consultant, Lehigh Valley Mental Health Association, 12/67-2/69 Consultant, Lutheran Children's Home, 2/68-6/72 Psychiatrist, Allentown Hospital Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 4/68-6/90 Consultant, Pastoral Institute of the Lehigh Valley, 11/68-1/71 Consultant, Allentown Counseling Center for Alcoholism, 6/69-6/72 Consultant, Lehigh University Centennial School, 1/70-3/77 Psychiatrist, Muhlenberg Medical Center Psychiatric Clinic (part-time), 6/71-6/86 Medical Director, Haven House (partial hospitalization program), 8/76-6/87 Consultant, Allentown Police Department (evaluation of police candidates), 8/80-3/85 Medical Director, NewVitae Partial Hospitalization Program, 8/90-3/91
There was something last week about him teaching a health class in the late ’80 at a Pennsylvania State School but that seems to have disappeared too. Look at all those part time jobs, consultant jobs, and cross over of so many jobs, all while running qauckwatch. This looks like a resume of someone getting paid a few bucks here and not being able to get a steady, well paying respected position.
See what happens when you are not board certified.
Also qauckwatch started a couple of years after he flunked the boards. Most doctors want to be great and well known in their field. Since that didn’t happen, starting qauckwatch could have been the recognition he was looking for. I am not saying it was, just guessing.
Ok, lets finish this. I made the changes already. We have the facts. Lets close this out now and move on to the next thing.-- MD1954 12:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee, Fyslee Fyslee. Poking your head up again. I copied his CV from his website last week. After I put it in and commented on it it was changed on his website. Look at the previous posts for godakes! I even wrote on there how the page was last update was listed as June 2005 when it was changed the day before!!!!!
Also here is where I get my source for quackwatch being founded log ago, right from his own website: Chairman, Board of Directors, Quackwatch, Inc. (originally called Lehigh Valley Committee Against Health Fraud, Inc.), 6/70-
It was just renamed. The town I live in was renamed 2 years ago after being that way for 213 years. Does that mean it did not exist before. Just a question for you, are you a PT in the U.S. or overseas?-- MD1954 12:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
My Friend, I copied it exactly from his page. My URL was to his website till he changed it. I did not add in the words part-time or half time. It did not matter what the archived pages say. That can easily be manipulated. I just tried it with my own website! I changed four pages from 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and the update date hasn’t changed. Pretty easy to do! Nice try!
I have it posted on here exactly as it was on HIS website! I am not the changing records. If he wants to prove otherwise he can come on here and explain it. He can also explain how someone could hold three and four jobs full-time positions at the same time, all while being a consultant, a lecturer, running qauckwatch, testifying in courts, working with multiple organizations, and the million other things he did, while raising a family! Did he sleep or his he really Dr. Who and can travel in Time?!
Also how come as such a medical expert he doesn’t have on his CV that he is a member of the American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association!
Please don’t tell me about violations. It was from his website! When I was looking at his website two months ago it said part and half-time. He has been on here since I posted that. Here is one of his responses after I posted on his CV: (if SBinfo really is him)
Dr. Barrett responds: Since my posted curriculum vitae doesn't explain what I did, whoever wrote the above doesn't doesn't have the slightest idea what it involved. In addition, the whole discussion of my psychiatric experience hasn't the slightest relevance to my writing activities. I have functioned as an investigative reporter for more than 30 years and have sufficient knowledge and enough help from other experts to do what I do effectively. Sbinfo 00:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Not one comment about his CV saying part-time or half-time in ANY of his further posts.
I love your other comment:
Not everyone has to have the same ambitions you may have had. Many other geniuses and influential people have walked to the beat of a different drummer, and taken the path less trodden. That is nothing to be ashamed of, nor to be denigrated.
My ambitions were to be the best and most helpful in my field. Is that not what Dr. Barrett at one time probably wanted? Would you go to a doctor who thought otherwise? Would you go to a brain surgeon who was not good enough to pass his board. A pyscharist is a brain surgeon who does not operate with a scapel. If you ever havethe misfortune to see one would you not want one that cared enough and was smart enough to pass his own boards? Boards whose purpose is to protect patient and phyiscan.
'''Genius''', you said. Man that is a good one. Dr. Frankstein though he was a genusis. Of course he accomplished something.
Now that I think of it quackwatch is a good name for Dr. Barrett’s website. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…. Anyway, good to hear from you again.-- MD1954 15:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The list of references is getting longer and longer, adding bulk to the article. It seems much more efficient to add the link to the reference in the text. This way readers can access the reference as they read without having to scroll down the bottom each time. NATTO 00:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
This whole discussion about board certification statistics seems to be ignoring a simple fact, best illustrated by the same principle at work in Age-adjusted life expectancy. "Age-adjusted board certification" would reveal a similar pattern - the farther back in time one goes, the lower a percentage of MDs were board certified, in relation to later dates. Each age bracket should be judged according to the norms at the time, and not by an unfair and illegitimate comparison with other age brackets at a much later date. In all professions there exists a certain type of "grandfather clause," which allows previously educated professionals to continue to work using their education, even if it was at a lower standard than the one now required. Experience and continuing education not only help to keep them up to date, but also means that they are often the professors teaching those new young grads.
Now is there anyone here among the Barrett skeptics who has enough conscience and sense of decency to be willing to include this fact in their calculations and editing? Jokestress has been doing what she could to bring up this idea, but no one seems to be willing to allow it to sway their POV, which they are including in the article, against good common sense and fairness. As an obvious POV edit it won't survive. Making it NPOV now will help it to survive. -- Fyslee 20:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
As an lurker in this debate i would mention four things.
All in all I do think that case being built against his medical knowledge, weighted so heavily on the judge and the fact he failed a board exam, is not really that convincing. David D. (Talk) 05:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
To repeat: all the article says is 1) He failed Board certification, 2) Chose not to try again 3) Has never been Board certified 3) in 1993 when he chose to let his license lapse , 81% of M.D. were Board certified. I fail to see were is the POV in that. The fact that in 2005, 89% are Board certified shows a clear trend also. Simply facts. I fail to see where the undue weight is as per David D. A lot has been written on the talk page and it looks like we are going in circle. If we put in the article that Board certification is not that important for Barrett and his work then that will definitely be POV. NATTO 08:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Age-adjusted board certification, I love this. If only it were true. All those times to take the boards could have been spared for everyone. I showed this to everyone and we love this it!! ROFL! I just love it when non-physician come up with this stuff. Fylsee, maybe we could tell you how to run your career!
There is no grandfather clauses for the boards like you are thinking. The only clauses there were was the amount of time to get the ceritifaction renewed.
The Boards Dr. Barrett took first started in 1935! What the hell kind of grandfather clause should he of gotten? (He was born in 1933!)Many doctors lost there jobs when certification became mandatory for many positions and they did not test or failed.-- MD1954 15:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
With regard to the Licensure and credentials section I have copy edited it to a version that i think is less POV and a more representative presentation of the material that is cited. I suggest that the 89% be cut out since it seems to be original research and, in my opinion, not really relevent to the point being made. probably this section should be discussed further on the talk page here before any major edits occur in the main article. David D. (Talk) 09:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The 20% was mostly doctors who would get there certification through Osteopathic Boards, not ABMS Boards, residents who are not eligible to take the boards, doctors who trained here but were leaving for their home countries after all their training, doctors who flunked the test (the biggest reason), doctor’s who knew they would flunk, physicians who had left medicine but were still on the rolls,or those who did not care.-- MD1954 15:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
If SBinfo really is Dr. Bartlett than Bartlett stated that he flunked his boards, not critics. Flunking part of your board exams is like being 'kinda pregnant.' If you have two parts to a board exam and you pass the first and flunked the second, you flunked the exams. Thats because you have to retake the WHOLE exam, parts I & II, to become a member of the board. You could pass part I and have to retake it 20x if you flunk part II every time.-- MD1954 17:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
David, medical students don't take challenging course?! Man you really don’t know anything about getting into medical school! You can’t take basket weaving 101 and similar classes to get a high GPA and have any chance of going to medical school.
First you need to have a good GPA, not the best, in whatever your undergrad degree is in. Each medical school looks at each class. For most schools you need to have taken general chemistry, organic chemistry, biology and physics, just to name a few. Since everyone does that many take advance classes in these subjects. Also you usually need things like community service, show you have leadership skills, usually through sports and similar items. And of course the MCATs are important. If those scores are bad kiss your chances goodbye. The MCATs are not that hard if you have been a good student and have prepared.
Getting into medical school is as hard now as in Dr. Barrett’s day, maybe even harder in Dr. Barrett’s day. In his day there were less spots in schools because there was less people in the country. People did not live as long and there were not as many people in health care programs. Also most non-European countries did not have medical schools and there were not as many offshore schools as today (most were not recognized in the U.S. anyway), so most people around the world came here or went to England.
Also Osteopathic medicine was not as well recognized so many people tried to get into an MD program while today many people compete for both.
Taking the boards is not like taking a pop quiz. The Board exams are things doctors should already know. If Dr. Barrett could not pass the exams because he did not learn enough neurology during his residency, that is his fault. It is not a secret what is on the test. He should have prepared himself better and found the experience somehow. Since 89% of doctors are certified today and 76% were four years before he retired its shows almost every physician can pass them.-- MD1954 17:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The schools look for the harder classes! Its better to have a B in a critical think class than an A+ in regurgitation class. Schools are eaiser to get into in some ways. One there is a lot more schools with more slots. You can go to the West Indies and get a degree now. Also Ostepathic schools are now fully accepted. Also many people choose other careers since money is not as much as a facot anymore. Ever hear this joke? " My plumber gave me a bill. I told him this was more than my doctor charges. He said he knew he use to be a doctor."
Its also harder to get into schoolfor the most part because of the the large amount of people applying. For the most part it use to be mostly white men. Before it was harder for miniorties and women to get in. Now people of every race, religon, and creed are getting in. Which is good because these groups were not repersented. There was a time when there were black only hospitals and the were very underfunded, and blacks suffered for no good reason. I think a good solution is to open more medical schools, that way more qualified people get in. There is plenty of qualifed people who would make great doctors, just not enough slots for them all. We need more doctors anyway.
I agree with you about the testing. I believe the MCAT is highly overrated. While it is a good tool many students do fry their brains trying to get ready for it and then retake it over and over for a better score. Also considering the amount of students that drop out of medical school, I wish there could be a better way to screen poeple. I have met plenty of 'pre-med' people who are doing something else besides medicine.
Most schools make you shadow a doctor. That means you follow a doctor around to see what he does. I think that if people did that for a couple of months, and also shadow at free clinics, ERs, morgue, be with a doc when they tell someone they are dying than that would weed out plenty.
We do need plenty of doctors. But we don't need med students who drop out or get fried and take up a valauble space for more deserving people.-- MD1954 18:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
You know David when you really think about school in general rates test too highly. While I believe it is more important in college the way kids are pressured these days in grade school is just wrong. I see kids with bookbags full of homework that wieghs more than them. They don't get out as much and lack a lot of the fun most of us had as kids.-- MD1954 19:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I failed to respond to Natto when s/he wrote this point and it may warrant its own section. Natto wrote:
I am unclear about what he needs to know 'now', that would serve him by taking the boards. He has years of medical experience and he retired in 1993. Did he just stop learning in 1993? Or worse forget everything. Maybe he knows more now than he did in 1993; now he has time to do research, read journals etc. Can one only be an expert in a field if they have sat exams in the field? In my experience this is not true. There are many examples of people successfully switching fields in science. None of this criticism is concrete. i would prefer to see evidence that he is incompetent or at least not good at his job. So far we have a valid datum point that he failed the boards. Is there more? David D. (Talk) 16:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Barrett as sbinfo wrote this earlier: Dr. Barrett responds: It had no effect on my career. "MD1954" is correct that nowadays, lack of certification would make it difficult to repeat what I did. However, when I began practice (early 1960s), nobody cared. Requirements for hospital staff membership and HMO participation began to tighten during the 1980s, but I was grandfathered on the staffs of the hospital clinics where I worked and was not dependent on HMOs for private patients. Sbinfo 16:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Reading his comments, it is clear the Board certification was very relevant as far the 1980s. It is also known that his activities related to what he calls quackery began in the 1980s. It is also known that during that time he still had an active licence and that he was and still uses his M.D. credentials in these activities, including testifiying in courts as well as providing advice to lawyers. Thus it is clear that Board certification is relevant. While, according to Dr. Barrett, it was not relevant in the 1960s, it became relevant in the 1980's. He may have been grandfathered into his hospital job but that does not automatically extend to his activities in Quackwatch which , by nature, were designed to seek as much attention as possible. Finally by his own admission, Dr. Barrett knew that Board certification is very relevant. In spite of this he chose not to try again to be Board certified at any time from 1967 to 1993. In light of the fact that he has a self-appointed activity that involves making value judgement about others and their work, it becomes event more important that his credentials, at least. match that of his M.D. colleagues.
Thus Board certification is relevant and the percentage of Board certified M.D.s is relevant because that is the standard of the 1980s up to today, when he is still active in the same activities. The way it is presently written , it simply states a fact and does not appear to be POV. It can become POV in the mind of the reader if they see a relevance between his lack of Board certification and his work as a medical expert today, but Wikipedia , surely, does not want to control what readers can think ? The information should remain in the article. NATTO 16:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It mattered to a judge.-- MD1954 21:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
" For years, Barrett has touted himself as a “medical expert” on “quackery” in healthcare and has assisted in dozens of court cases as an expert. Also, Barrett has testified that was called upon by the FDA, FTC and other governmental agencies for his purported expertise. He was the subject of many magazine interviews, including Time Magazine and featured on television interviews on ABC’s 20/20, NBC’s Today Show and PBS. He has gained media fame by his outspoken vocal disgust and impatience over natural or non-medical healthcare, including his criticisms of two time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling.... At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed “expert testimony” as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases as such. Also, Barrett had said that he was a “legal expert” even though he had no formal legal training.
The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial. During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA)." [37]
This is one source. The information herein contained has been confirmed by other sources, including court transcripts and postings made by Sbinfo on this talk page. NATTO 03:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Reference no. 22 doesn't lead anywhere and needs to be fixed. -- Fyslee 21:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see documentation for precisely what claims to expertise have been made by Dr. Barrett. I know he has made some, but this page is assuming alot of things which he hasn't claimed, and we need to get it right.
Let's delimit the claims issue:
Let's get verifiable documentation to use in the article. Right now a lot of opinions are being discussed, but that's not good enough for the article.
My outline above can form the basis for a section on his expertise, and the viewpoints on it. -- Fyslee 17:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
MD1954 seems to have some uncertainty about Barrett's identity here.
That fact should alert you to several rules of Wikipedia. You are now dealing with Barrett himself, and personal attacks on him in any capacity are personal attacks on another Wikipedia editor. Disrespect needs to cease. (That applies to all of us.) You must assume good faith and keep in mind that he is a living person, and thus this article about him is protected by certain rules that do not apply to other articles. Criticisms are certainly allowed, but they must be verifiable, and made in a NPOV manner. Treat him as you yourself wish to be treated, with dignity and respect. This is a collaborative effort.
Jimbo Wales has this to say about living persons and articles about them:
About "bad editors" he has this to say:
".....editors who don't stop to think that reverting someone who is trying to remove libel about themselves is a horribly stupid thing to do." - Jimmy Wales [38]
Steve Bennett wrote:
Absolutely not. Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia. - Jimmy Wales [39]
-- Fyslee 17:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Tell me were in assume good faith I am suppose to believe somebody is a certain person, maybe I missed it. I love it how some of us are digging sources up to verify our points and I am just to assume that SBinfo is Dr. Barrett. And I am just to assume you know Dr. Barret. I should just 'ask the old timers.' Great sources! Hi old timers. Does Fyslee know Dr. Barrett. Till there is someway that Dr. Barrett will state that he is SBinfo, we can't assume it is.
Under the Verifiability section of wikpedia, we need more than what you are saying.
A good way to look at the distinction between verifiability and truth is with the following example. Suppose you are writing a Wikipedia entry on a famous physicist's Theory X, which has been published in peer-reviewed journals and is therefore an appropriate subject for a Wikipedia article. However, in the course of writing the article, you contact the physicist and he tells you: "Actually, I now believe Theory X to be completely false." Even though you have this from the author himself, you cannot include the fact that he said it in your Wikipedia entry.
Why not? Because it is not verifiable in a way that would satisfy the Wikipedia readership or other editors. The readers don't know who you are. You can't include your telephone number so that every reader in the world can call you for confirmation. And even if they could, why should they believe you?''
How can I e-mail him and then tell everyone it was Dr. Barrett? How can I prove that to everyone? We need to see it in writing. Putting it on quackwatch seems the easist, most relable way to me.-- MD1954 19:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I found something about what he had to say on his website: http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/board.html
-- MD1954 19:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
He could of stated better the importance of ceritication. He could of also put the % of doctors that were board certified. Also the fact that it hard to advance in a medical career without it.
I would like to hear him state his personal thoughts about certification in relation to his career.-- MD1954 20:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Sbinfo, I will address you as that since I can’t confirm you are Dr. Barrett.
With all due respect Sbinfo, certification has been important for long before the 1980’s. Certification was still important in the 1970’s and 1980’s, I’m also speaking for personal experience.
Looking at Dr. Barrett’s CV, I see many crossover of full-time (?), part-time, consulting jobs (which can mean anything) and positions at public mental clinics/hospital. I would never discredit public mental hospitals, these days it seems we need to bring some of them back. However looking at Dr. Barrett’s CV I see only part-time positions when employed as a psychiatrist in these institutions. I do not understand why no fulltime employment was attained. While I can imagine maybe later in life a psychiatrist working part-time to pursue other goals, I can’t imagine one in the prime of his career. I would assume that the ‘70s and ’80 when Dr. Barrett was raising his children. That would not be the best time to be working part-time positions, financially that is.
While I agree with the grandfathering, it was for part-time positions. And many organizations may not have grand fathered.
I see it say private practice, however this is vague. With so many part-time positions, consultant jobs, and working with different organizations at the same time, it would be kind of hard to have a profitable private practice.
Board certification has been important for a while. While it not mandatory to practice, it is the gold standard of any medical specialty. And since Dr. Barrett is doing his advocating as an MD, and he was not able to attain the standard in his field, I think it should be noted.
Also I see no membership to the American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association.
I am not saying that Dr. Barrett had these positions because of not having board certification. But I am trying to explain how important was and still is.
I am not saying he should not be able to do what he is doing. But it should be noted in his profile. (Which it is)-- MD1954 20:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
To reinforce what I said, I do believe Dr. Barrett pobably helped many sick people in his career. My only point is that him being not board certifed should be mentioned. Even thought neurology was not relevant to his type of practice, it was relevant enough to be included in the boards as determined by fellow psychiatrists. These skills could always be learned. I don’t know his motivations for him not retaking the boards. But most doctors do like to have the certifications not only for their patients care but also for their own personal satisfaction and standards of excellence.-- MD1954 21:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted becuase it was also the standard when Dr. Barrett was still practicing. It also caused problems in a court trail, and will likely be brought up by other critics. I agree that many of his critics are not qualified. One person he does point out as a quack is Dr. Andrew Weil and I find that a little riduclous. Thats when the boards are important to, when one MD bashes another.
To get back on track I do say we should include that he is not board certified and leave it at that. No disclaimers. -- MD1954 21:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I had not heard of LaSalle, and I went to grad school in Chicago. From a Tucson Weekly article on this institution:
I found the CV that list Dr. Barrett's part-time & half-time positions.
http://www.mlmwatch.org/10Bio/biovitae.html
I am only showing this because it was 'implied' that I had lied about it.-- MD1954 20:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)