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It seems that the activity of supply of fuel made under the way of "bunkering" its been a source of marine pollution. In my Faculty (of Marine Sciences, in the University of Cádiz) they say to me that its also totally forbidden by the MARPOL, and Barcelona Convention such that practice. Ecologist groups are already complaining oficially to the European Union. I would be grateful if anybody has further information about all this. -- Feministo ( talk) 22:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Is not only a matter of sovereignity. The health of people and ecosistem is affected and there're some laws and conventions that are probably been ignored. Water framework directive is including coastal waters in its range of protection and stablish the goal of stop polluting towards making economy not to threaten present health nor future. Oil and fuel are having highly toxic substances that are being dropped to the waters unnecesarly when bunkering is made under the 'cheaper the better' approach. The coordination to fight pollution and to recover environmental quallity in the Bay is strongly needed. I'm trying to find out the legal framework. It seems that under the lackness of agreement about territorial waters, in the three milles beside Gibraltar, Gibraltar's Government decides actually. Is it like that? -- Feministo ( talk) 07:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
As RedCoat has pointed out, the incident caused a strain between Anglo-Spanish relations and was a subject of discussion in the Tripartite forum. That's absolutely true. However, I don't think any incident between two frontier territories, even if there is a dispute between them, are related to such a dispute. With regard to the New Flame incident, it must be proved that it's somehow related to the sovereignty dispute. There has been other incidents involving Gibraltar, such as that starred by Odyssey, and I can't see a relationship with the dispute. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 21:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
“ | Las relaciones entre los puertos de Gibraltar y Algeciras se han complicado siempre debido a la histórica reclamación de soberanía del Gobierno español sobre la colonia británica. Por esta razón, ambos puertos se han ignorado oficialmente y han regulado sus movimientos de buques sin relaciones directas. | ” |
“ | 2. In ratifying the Convention, Spain wishes to make it known that this act cannot be construed as recognition of any rights or status regarding the maritime space of Gibraltar that are not included in article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht of 13 July 1713 concluded between the Crowns of Spain and Great Britain. Furthermore, Spain does not consider that Resolution III of the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea is applicable to the colony of Gibraltar, which is subject to a process of decolonization in which only relevant resolutions adopted by the United Nations General Assembly are applicable. | ” |
Izquierda Unida, por su parte, anunció ayer una iniciativa para pedir que se cree un organismo "unitario" para regular el tráfico en el Estrecho. "No se puede seguir con este descontrol y Gibraltar no ofrece garantías", dijo el diputado de IU Ignacio García.
Izquierda Unida (United Left a Spanish political party), meanwhile, announced yesterday an initiative to request that an "unitary" agency regulate traffic in the Strait. "We can not continue with this disorder and Gibraltar does not offer guarantees," said UI deputy Ignacio Garcia.
La seguridad marítima también paga un peaje por el histórico conflicto sobre la soberanía de Gibraltar. A pesar de que casi 30.000 barcos atracan o fondean cada año en Algeciras y Gibraltar, ambos puertos no se informan de las entradas y salidas de estas embarcaciones que navegan por la misma bahía. Ésta fue una de las razones que propiciaron el abordaje entre el New Flame y el Torm Gertrud, ocurrido el pasado 12 de agosto frente al Peñón. Por el estrecho de Gibraltar, uno de los pasos marítimos más transitados, circula el 10% del tráfico mundial.
The historic dispute over the sovereignty of Gibraltar also extracts a toll on maritime security. Despite the fact that nearly 30,000 ships berth or anchor every year in Algeciras and Gibraltar, neither port is informed of shipping leaving or entering the other, although the ships are sailing in the same waters. This was one of the reasons that led to the collision between the New Flame and Gertrud Tormo, which occurred last Aug. 12 near the Rock. The Straits of Gibraltar, one of the busiest shipping lanes, circulates 10% of global traffic.
I could agree, but it's pretty obvious that this has nothing to do with the current redaction. The elements currently included are just wishful thinking. No source claims that the New Flame incident is, in itself, a recent dispute on the sovereignty issue. Moreover, the sources that RedCoat and Gibnews have provided clearly states that the government of Spain has no complaints about the way the Government of Gibraltar has faced the crisis. Even if so (that is, any involved party claims that it is related to the disputed status of Gibraltar) it should be properly attributed.
However, during the discussion, some sources have come out that relates some issues of the whole incident to the sovereignty dispute. So, those issues are the one that should be quoted:
All the rest is just POV editing. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 21:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC) PS: sorry Justin for calling you a liar. In the beginning it was "Spanish [..] want a "unitary" authority (and let me guess - a Spanish unitary authority?)" and now it's "Spanish political figures are calling for unilateral action by Spain" (unfortunatelly, it goes on being wrong; its one political "figure" the one which is calling for a "unitary" agency regulate to traffic in the Strait). However, as long as the Strait involves not only Spain and the United Kingdom but also Morocco, it's yet to be proved that this MAP (Member of the Andalusian Parliament) requires a Spanish agency in charge of it (again, we're not here to speculate...)
And a cynic would say also that the UK signing treaties does not mean much, as the Spanish know with the Colony of Gibraltar, which now occupies much more terrain than it should according to the Treaty of Utrecht. In fact, the treaty never ceded jurisdiction to Britain, but the propierty. So shut up.
Postscript: Spain signed the UN convention which DOES NOT give Gibraltar any territorial waters. Eccemaml just quoted this, but I'll repeat it for you to -finally- understand: "In ratifying the Convention, Spain wishes to make it known that this act cannot be construed as recognition of any rights or status regarding the maritime space of Gibraltar that are not included in article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht of 13 July 1713 concluded between the Crowns of Spain and Great Britain. Furthermore, Spain does not consider that Resolution III of the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea is applicable to the colony of Gibraltar, which is subject to a process of decolonization in which only relevant resolutions adopted by the United Nations General Assembly are applicable". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.59.120 ( talk) 17:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Nope, Gibnews. The Treaty of Utrecht was signed between the Crowns of Spain and Britain, whom never took the people into consideration when bartering land. And that's because the notion of nation-state is quite newer than the feudal notion of "propriety" as ownage of land and it's inhabitants.
The Treaty of Utrecht states: "The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever".
As you may know, there is a difference between the terms "propriety" and "sovereignty". To own something does not qualify you to impose a currency or law on it. Besides, and concerning the size of Gibraltar, it states: "the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging" (then, of course). Maps of that time do exist. And the area occupied by Gibraltar is now much larger.
And last, but not least, just because you do not share a position, it does not make it "ill-informed". While indeed "wikipedia is not really the place for ill informed opinions about a 300 year old treaty in Latin", you should not be surprised if someone responds to your own biased opinions. Or is it fair to say "Spain signing aggreements does not mean much" (because it is OBVIOUSLY a fact, a neutral statement, and it is absolutely necessary in this talk page), but it is inappropriate to answer such a fascist insular oversimplification? So you can dish it out but you can't take it?
With that said, keep nuclear submarines offshore and take care, man! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.59.120 ( talk) 12:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Instead of adding citation needed tags, why not spend some time collecting sources and being productive? Rewriting the article to show Spain in a good light is uphill work. -- Gibnews ( talk) 21:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Although the formal Act of Union was later, its generally claimed that Gibraltar was conquered by the British rather than the English. The history books, or at least the one at hand here, refer to raising the UNION flag and not the English flag. British to me signifies people from the British isles, and not necessarily those acting under the 1707 act or having 'British Citizen' in their passports.
Its a narrow point, but one that needs discussion rather than heavy handed threats. -- Gibnews ( talk) 23:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) I note that the editor involved, who is apparently an admin, has initiated a discussion elsewhere see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland#No Scotland in 1704. I thought it would be polite to inform other editors. Justin talk 13:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Jza84 does have a point. The previous version says that Gib was conquered "by Britain". The notion that it was conquered by the British three years before there was any such country is misleading. If a source asserts that Britain conquered Gibraltar in 1704, then that surely reflects poorly on that source's attention to detail.
The notion that Britain is meant in a geographical sense is bizarre. One wonders what role Glen Coe, or the White Cliffs of Dover, or the Lleyn peninsula played in these events. In any case, that's certainly not what's implied by the sentence. Conquest is a political act. It is not something that geography does. If somewhere is conquered by Britain, it is well implied that it was the state, not the island, that did the conquering. Regardless of what flag was raised, Gibraltar could not have been conquered by Britain in 1704 any more than it could have been conquered by the USA in 1704.
So, Gibraltar was conquered by England, by Scotland, or by both England and Scotland. England seems most likely because Scotland didn't join the War of the Spanish Succession until the Union. Best option, it seems to me, is to either leave it as is, or sidestep the question by saying it was conquered in the name of Queen Anne. Pfainuk talk 17:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
The UK did not come around until 1707. Gibralta was conquered by ENGLAND. The Unionist fanatics will just have to live with that!-- English Bobby ( talk) 14:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
No your wrong. Queen anne was Queen of England, Scotland and Ireland all differant nations at the time. Also some sources say British others English. The British ones were most likly written after the union happened some years later, mistaking English for British happens alot particulary on wikipedia where the unionists are trying to brush out England and Scotlands exsistance. Your beloved Union will be dead soon so give up.-- English Bobby ( talk) 12:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
British refers to people from the United Kingdom or the British ilses, though thats like calling the spanish 'Iberians'. The fact is Britain was not a political nation at the time, most people grasp this unlike you. As for the your little Union the conservatives are generally more simpathetic to the Anglo-Saxon cause than liberal parties and understand the feeling among English people. If you were a proper Englishman then you would understand this and would stop trying to rewrite history. But whatever makes you happy i guess!-- English Bobby ( talk) 19:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
All i was trying to do was stop people changing English history. As for the politics i was hardly saying anymore than gibnews.-- English Bobby ( talk) 20:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Well frankly i do care about this. The whole union thing maybe was of the track a little but the English/british point is relevant. Certain people are trying to airbrush Englands history out of existance which is very insulting to the growing number of us who are proud to be English! I can see your attemting to defend your chum. English Bobby ( talk) 10:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Firstly Gibnews was trying to change history by saying it was the BRITISH who captured Gibralta and secondly i spend half my time on this site correcting pages on events before 1707 where people have put British instead of the rightful ENGLISH. All you have to do is look because its everywhere. So there's the evidence! English Bobby ( talk) 13:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Good for you. I suggest you read WP:BITE. I did not ask to argue with you in the first place! English Bobby ( talk) 14:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Great Britain did not exist at the time so you are wrong. Everyone (well allmost) knows that the UK was formed in 1707 so your unionist opinion is wrong! English Bobby ( talk) 16:14, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I was simply saying that the Union did not exist at the time and saying otherwise is wrong and fairly offensive English Bobby ( talk) 15:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of the flag Gibraltar was captured by an ENGLISH army acting on the orders of an sovereign ENGLISH government (not including allies). Scotland was not even in the war until the act of union. English Bobby ( talk) 18:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of the references scotland was not in the war at the time so it can not have been a British conquest. Your just sticking your unionist opinion here! English Bobby ( talk) 19:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Your right this is silly. Wikipedia is the only website i've ever been on where the English people have to compromise their existance and history because of certain peoples political views be they labours PC selfloathing unionist brigade (see above), celtic supremacists or general Anglophobes!-- English Bobby ( talk) 20:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
If your going to say it was captured by the British purely on geographical grounds then you should say it was captured from the IBERIANS. The fact that the Union did not even exist at the time makes that unlikly. As for the smurf comment that just shows the serious flaw with wikipedia. Also your tone is no better than mine, though i'm not the one trying to rewrite history to satisfy your obvious political beliefs. English Bobby ( talk) 19:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well as everyone above agrees, that would be unlikly since there were no british or UK. If its so hard for you to grasp then why don't you find a reference that tell you when the union came about. Here's a clue (1st May 1707)-- English Bobby ( talk) 10:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Good get lost then! My understanding of British history is alot better than yours.-- English Bobby ( talk) 14:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Mabye you should stop watching american TV, since their the only people i've ever met (other than you) who can't tell the difference between British and English. Then again your not English so i understand that you know nothing of our history.-- English Bobby ( talk) 15:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
You tell me not to make personal attacks and then attack my spelling. For all you know i could have writing and spelling problems. Its regrettable old people can go senile.-- English Bobby ( talk) 15:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
UNINDENT
Personal attacks calling other editors "senile" cross a line, as you've reverted, I've raised it at the admin noticeboard here. Justin talk 17:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
The introduction of this material by 81.33.53.43 ( talk · contribs) violates Wikipedia's policy on original research. The source in question is being used to defend Spain's position, not cite it. RedCoat10 • talk 14:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it should be included the main reasons why gibraltarians want to remain british: they are almost tax free, including some unfair taxations (I think the unfair taxations will be removed soon), they receive almost 6 million tourists, mostly from spain, most due to this special taxation in alcohol and tobacco (spanish citizens in Linea de la Concepcion are very happy with this). Lots of businesses are settled each year in gibraltar, due to important tax reductions (the unfair taxation that will be removed). In conclusion, I think that the economical privileges of being british territory have a major influence in gibraltarians decision, even though culturaly, they feel like 50% andalusian and 50% british, and almost everyone speaks andalusian spanish. Spanish territories surrounding gibraltar feel very comfortable with this status too. If I don't receive a denial, I will try to state this facts in the article in the most neutral way —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enriquegoni ( talk • contribs) 23:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Well yeah I agree that is original research that their main reasons are economical. Even though, it would be an improvement of the article trying to explain to an uninformed reader their reason for the overwhelming 99% that vote no for Spain. Gibraltarians state that Franco policies of blocking Gibraltar were counterproductive, this was said by Gibraltars' prime minister. To talk about their cultural proximity to andalusia is not original research, 99% of them are bilingual spanish-english. An uninformed reader who sees a 99% victory of "no" can be lead to think that Gibraltarians are as british as the people in London. It is more complex than that and the article doesnt make an attemp to explain gibraltarian feelings about britain and about spain, and about their own identity, which could just be defined as "gibraltarian" Enriquegoni ( talk) 10:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Justin. I want to put this phrase, maybe in the section about the point of view of gibraltarians. "People like Dominique Searle (director of Gibraltar Chronicle) or Peter Montegriffo (former Gibraltar minister) have the opinion that spanish policies in Gibraltar during the last 30 years have contributed to weaken the gibraltarian mediterranean identity and to create a very strong british identity" please note that mediterranean identity is not the same as spanish identity, and that stronger british identity does not mean that Gibraltar had'nt got an own british identity before, only that they were more mediterranean. I don't know if any of you speak spanish, but this two gibraltarians state it on this video (in spanish though) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VydLsrJg1I the quote is almost exact. What I have to say about the economic claims. I think that if you write about spanish unbased claims about legality, you'll have to put also the spanish claims which were found correct by EU. The EU considered that some of Gibraltar taxes were unfair and has stated that Gibraltar has to abolish the reduced taxation to business that are not stablished directly inside Gibraltar by 2010. You can find the complete article here (BBC news): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4195531.stm Its ok to say that Gibraltar taxes and economy is legal, which is correct. But some spanish claims about this subject were indeed found correct by EU (that doesnt mean you are not legal or not ethically correct). On the recent tensions part, there have been new and sometimes big tensions between spanish guardia civil and british royal navy, which have almost broken apart the talks that 3 governments had about the issue. I think they would be 3 nice contributions. Gibnews, only 1 point, i'm sure that if Linea de la concepcion received 6 million tourists instead of 6 million illegal inmigrants there would be no unemployement there :) Enriquegoni ( talk) 22:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
With regard to this, I have no more to say what I said in my edit summary: "Wow, the reference explicitly mentions 11 out of 16 non self-governing territories, lists them (Gibraltar is not in the list), and there's a text on it in the Gibraltar article ??".
And I add, in fact, such a mention, if necessary, should be in the section "Spanish position" since it explicitly excludes "self-determination" in the Gibraltar case :-) -- Ecemaml ( talk) 16:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but the issue is that the text only applies to 11 territories. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 19:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC) PS: furthermore, such a mention should be in an inexistent paragraph on the conflict in the UN
The Government of Gibraltar greeted the text approved by the 4C UN on [date here][reference already existin]. Although it applied to non self-governing territories other that Gibraltar, the fact that it reaffirmed that, in the process of decolonization, "there was no alternative to the principle of self-determination"; and that the UK passed an ammendment that removed the mention to "dispute[s] over sovereignty", was considered as a support for the Gibraltarian stance [put a reference here].
The Government of Gibraltar greeted the text approved by the 4C UN on 20 October 2008[already existing reference]. Although it applied to non self-governing territories other than Gibraltar, the fact that it reaffirmed that, in the process of decolonization, "there was no alternative to the principle of self-determination"; and that the UK passed an ammendment that removed the mention to "dispute[s] over sovereignty" in the decolonization process, was considered as a support for the Gibraltarian stance [put a reference here].
Well, I won't revert this anymore. It simply stress the POV wording of the sentence. However, it's interesting to note that Wikipedia policies are suspended when it comes to Gibraltar articles (or better to Gibnews editions) and that, for instance, WP:CITEHOW does not apply any more. Instead of the title of the reference, it must be replaced by the text Gibnews picks. Interesting. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 11:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I've started on RFC on these articles here [3]. Justin talk 20:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
PACVEL'S OPINION —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.145.103.224 ( talk) 18:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi guys, just let me express my opinion on this very interesting discussion on the actual scope of the declaration of the UNGA's Fourth Committee. What I think is that it doesn't refer to the question of the decolonization of Gibraltar, and let me tell you why: The UN have already established a legal framework in which negotiations between Spain and the UK have to proceed. Thus, UNGA Resolution 2231, and subsequently Resolution 2353 did implicitly recognize the right to self-determination, of course, but not as a right to gain independence, since it said that this decolonization was to be fulfilled through the negotiation between Spain and the UK (implicitly respecting the Article X of Utrecht). SO if the UN is going to change the effects of Resolutions 2353 and 2231, it has to do so clearly and explicitly. Of course the wording of this Declaration of the 4th Committee can be understood as applying to Gibraltar, but for it to be of any effect to the dispute of Gibraltar, it should do so explicitly, in order to revoke its past doctrine on the issue.
Ecemaml will you just quit with the edit warring, removing cites is not acceptable - even by your own standards. Justin talk 11:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Ecemaml changed the title of the ref in the last edit, which has been reverted by Gibnews. I don't see the harm in Ecemaml's edit, I don't see the point either, but I see no reason for the effort and bad feeling of a revert to be necessary. Really chaps, come on. Ecemaml has been gracious enough to admit the point, I believe, there is little reason to rub it in with the revert of the rename. Also, it is rather clear we will have to look for a better source anyway. -- Narson ~ Talk • 11:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC) (EC)
Guys, it is rather clear that the atmosphere here is not condusive to editing at the moment, with various editors feeling attacked or frustrated. It is also coming up to Christmas (or whatever other holiday one likes to celebrate that involves family and good food). I propose that (And this is in no order) Justin, Cremallera, Ecemaml, Gibnews, Imalbornoz, myself and anyone else who feels they are involved sign up to a moratorium on these pages to last until 00:01 GMT on the 27th of December (so after Boxing Day). This will give everyone a chance to simmer down. On the 27th, I will try to post up a neutral summation of the issues brought forward and we can then move on from there, with the understanding that the entirity of ones comments must be about the proposed editions and not the edits.
This moratorium on editing would cover both the article and the talk page of: Gibraltar, Disputed Status of Gibraltar, Self-governing colony and History of Gibraltar. It would also cover any other article directly related to Gibraltar. This may freeze the articles (barring new editors) on what any editor might view as a 'wrong version', this is perfectly fine. For a few days the universe can take this. The long term interests of these artiles will be served. So, there would be no editing on those pages or talk pages during that time. If there is blatant and obvious vandalism, obviously that would be acceptable to revert.
After the moratorium, I am proposing a tabula rasa approach. That is, we approach the issues as if from new. We also try to forget any past perceptions or views on other editors. For those Babylon 5 fans out there, this will be our last, best hope for peace. I hope you will all join me in signing below, so that we can work together to build a better encyclopedia tomorrow by agreeing to step away for today, at least from this area of the wiki. -- Narson ~ Talk • 14:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Right, I am going to put out a summation of the issues as I see them, remember to approach this as new. If you think anything has been missed please use my talk page and I'll add it in.
The issues on Self-governing colony, as the most distantly related, should come first.
The issues on History of Gibraltar are slightly confusing at the moment, as we have a whole re-worked article being proposed. It is certainly a better starting point than what we have, might I propose we agree, as a group, that we have no objection to ChrisO's reworking in principle? After all, I am sure we all agree the history article has become a little stale. If that is not the case, then I will list some discussion points for that article as well.
On this talk page there is only one main issue that is continuing:
The mother article. So what troubles the Gibraltar page?
I will be creating discussion sections on each article with their section copied in. For this page, use the below section. All of the above: -- Narson ~ Talk • 14:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I think we need to include La_Línea_de_la_Concepción too, as I note the evil English have been eating the Spanish isthmus for Christmas. Although in practice the Chinese are more active on the former neutral ground with eating areas. I don't know how many articles actually need the story of the Gibraltar capture repeated. Perhaps we should have ONE article about it referenced from the others. -- Gibnews ( talk) 15:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Gibnews, is that possible to avoid pointless statements to the "evil English"? We're not here to discuss about the morality of imperialist powers of the past. England was as evil/good as the Spanish before them and the Americans right now. It's not our aim to discuss about it, so please, stick to the point.
When it comes to the actual point, I can't see the reason to your template. The isthmus was "eaten" by the British as it was not ceded in the Treaty of Utrecht. UK claims that they did it without Spanish complaint (and therefore prescription applies) and Spain claims that it complaimed everytime the British went North (and therefore prescription does not apply). The sources of each stance are, if noboby has deleted them, in the article that you possibly know ( Disputed status of the isthmus between Gibraltar and Spain), so I can't see any valid reason to include such a template. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
It's really boring to show sources and receive absolutely nothing. Your fantasies are interesting, but mostly irrelevant for Wikipedia. Can you play by the rules? -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:53, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm happy to leave the history article for now. Justin talk 15:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
The issue with this article is that its been edited to say that the British Dependent Territories and British Overseas Territories were a change of name only. The argument stagnated because the talk page discussion went round in circles with numerous strawmen proposed and a completely unsatisfactory text proposal. Justin talk 15:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
The issue is that Justin is wrong. Let's see, for instance Stephen Constantine (2009). Community and identity. The making of modern Gibraltar since 1704. Manchester University Press. p. 405. ISBN 978-0-7190-8054-8.:
It required for the UK not just the accelerated decolonization of most of its colonial 'properties' but a shift in linguistic gears and a renaming of the survivors of British Dependent Territories in 1981 and as British Overseas Territories in 2002
The problem is simply that the article lacks references and, generally speaking, is quite deficient. For instance, especially when talking about "self-governing" entities, fails to mention that most of current BOTs are listed as Non-self-governing territories by the UN. Moreover, it speaks about "Self-Governing Colony" and it does a argument somersault since it talks about BOTs. Some of them have self-governing institutions, while others haven't, so why they are referred in the article as a whole? -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:24, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Akrotiri and Dhekelia: population: 7,000 Cypriots ("who either work in the bases themselves, or on farmland within the boundaries of the bases"). So, again, is BOT status relevant in itself for self-government or it the UK Gov policy you mention? On the other hand, the "C24 crap" should be mentioned in an article dealing with "self-government", since they are included in a UN list on non-self-government territories. Why should such information be in an article dealing with Gibraltar is something beyond my understanding (and of course totally beyond the WP:NPOV policies) -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:42, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
"Interesting"? For whom? If you provide reliable sources on the relevance of those places with regard to "self-governing colonies", it would be interesting? Otherwise, your usual offenses to Spain are simply out of scope. We're not here to discuss about your problems with the country. Please, stick to the point. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 00:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
The statement is very significant because the Spanish and Argentine Governments used their proxies on the UN C24 to propose a text modifying the right to self-determination. It was unceremoniously rejected for a statement underlining the right to self-determination. Justin talk 15:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
1. Scope of the term Gibraltarian; Does it include pre-conquest persons? What guidelines should we use to decide who is notable in either case?
2. What level of statistics are acceptable for this page?
3. Perhaps attached to the above, do we need to create a subarticle for the Economy of Gibraltar?
4. The article in genera has become very large, do the above ideas help?
5. Should San Roque, the spanish town on the other side of the border, be included due to its links with Gibraltar?
UNINDENT Let's show some sources (even if they dislike some editors, for some untold reason):
It was the Gibraltar city council which on 1 August 1704 (NS) rejected the Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt's call to surrender; it was the city council which on 4 August accepted the inevitable; it was the city council with almost all the civilian population, and a small garriton, which on 7 August filed out, taking with it the city's standard and records; and it was the city council which in 1706, with royal authority, re-established itself in San Roque in what had once been part of Gibralta's domain as, according to King Philip, 'My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo'.
— Stephen Constantine (2009). Community and identity. The making of modern Gibraltar since 1704. Manchester University Press. ISBN 978-0-7190-8054-8.
So, again, yet another source establishing the relevance. At the same time that excessive length of the article is mention as argument to block the mention, irrelevant details are introduced. While it's said that it gives undue weight, a further clarification about relevance if provided above (this seems to be British Wikipedia, and therefore, Lady Di's stay in Gibraltar is more relevant that the destiny of the Gibraltar population). Interesting. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 00:05, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
6. The border closures: Are they important? To what are we attributing them? Is this sourced?
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It seems that the activity of supply of fuel made under the way of "bunkering" its been a source of marine pollution. In my Faculty (of Marine Sciences, in the University of Cádiz) they say to me that its also totally forbidden by the MARPOL, and Barcelona Convention such that practice. Ecologist groups are already complaining oficially to the European Union. I would be grateful if anybody has further information about all this. -- Feministo ( talk) 22:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Is not only a matter of sovereignity. The health of people and ecosistem is affected and there're some laws and conventions that are probably been ignored. Water framework directive is including coastal waters in its range of protection and stablish the goal of stop polluting towards making economy not to threaten present health nor future. Oil and fuel are having highly toxic substances that are being dropped to the waters unnecesarly when bunkering is made under the 'cheaper the better' approach. The coordination to fight pollution and to recover environmental quallity in the Bay is strongly needed. I'm trying to find out the legal framework. It seems that under the lackness of agreement about territorial waters, in the three milles beside Gibraltar, Gibraltar's Government decides actually. Is it like that? -- Feministo ( talk) 07:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
As RedCoat has pointed out, the incident caused a strain between Anglo-Spanish relations and was a subject of discussion in the Tripartite forum. That's absolutely true. However, I don't think any incident between two frontier territories, even if there is a dispute between them, are related to such a dispute. With regard to the New Flame incident, it must be proved that it's somehow related to the sovereignty dispute. There has been other incidents involving Gibraltar, such as that starred by Odyssey, and I can't see a relationship with the dispute. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 21:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
“ | Las relaciones entre los puertos de Gibraltar y Algeciras se han complicado siempre debido a la histórica reclamación de soberanía del Gobierno español sobre la colonia británica. Por esta razón, ambos puertos se han ignorado oficialmente y han regulado sus movimientos de buques sin relaciones directas. | ” |
“ | 2. In ratifying the Convention, Spain wishes to make it known that this act cannot be construed as recognition of any rights or status regarding the maritime space of Gibraltar that are not included in article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht of 13 July 1713 concluded between the Crowns of Spain and Great Britain. Furthermore, Spain does not consider that Resolution III of the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea is applicable to the colony of Gibraltar, which is subject to a process of decolonization in which only relevant resolutions adopted by the United Nations General Assembly are applicable. | ” |
Izquierda Unida, por su parte, anunció ayer una iniciativa para pedir que se cree un organismo "unitario" para regular el tráfico en el Estrecho. "No se puede seguir con este descontrol y Gibraltar no ofrece garantías", dijo el diputado de IU Ignacio García.
Izquierda Unida (United Left a Spanish political party), meanwhile, announced yesterday an initiative to request that an "unitary" agency regulate traffic in the Strait. "We can not continue with this disorder and Gibraltar does not offer guarantees," said UI deputy Ignacio Garcia.
La seguridad marítima también paga un peaje por el histórico conflicto sobre la soberanía de Gibraltar. A pesar de que casi 30.000 barcos atracan o fondean cada año en Algeciras y Gibraltar, ambos puertos no se informan de las entradas y salidas de estas embarcaciones que navegan por la misma bahía. Ésta fue una de las razones que propiciaron el abordaje entre el New Flame y el Torm Gertrud, ocurrido el pasado 12 de agosto frente al Peñón. Por el estrecho de Gibraltar, uno de los pasos marítimos más transitados, circula el 10% del tráfico mundial.
The historic dispute over the sovereignty of Gibraltar also extracts a toll on maritime security. Despite the fact that nearly 30,000 ships berth or anchor every year in Algeciras and Gibraltar, neither port is informed of shipping leaving or entering the other, although the ships are sailing in the same waters. This was one of the reasons that led to the collision between the New Flame and Gertrud Tormo, which occurred last Aug. 12 near the Rock. The Straits of Gibraltar, one of the busiest shipping lanes, circulates 10% of global traffic.
I could agree, but it's pretty obvious that this has nothing to do with the current redaction. The elements currently included are just wishful thinking. No source claims that the New Flame incident is, in itself, a recent dispute on the sovereignty issue. Moreover, the sources that RedCoat and Gibnews have provided clearly states that the government of Spain has no complaints about the way the Government of Gibraltar has faced the crisis. Even if so (that is, any involved party claims that it is related to the disputed status of Gibraltar) it should be properly attributed.
However, during the discussion, some sources have come out that relates some issues of the whole incident to the sovereignty dispute. So, those issues are the one that should be quoted:
All the rest is just POV editing. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 21:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC) PS: sorry Justin for calling you a liar. In the beginning it was "Spanish [..] want a "unitary" authority (and let me guess - a Spanish unitary authority?)" and now it's "Spanish political figures are calling for unilateral action by Spain" (unfortunatelly, it goes on being wrong; its one political "figure" the one which is calling for a "unitary" agency regulate to traffic in the Strait). However, as long as the Strait involves not only Spain and the United Kingdom but also Morocco, it's yet to be proved that this MAP (Member of the Andalusian Parliament) requires a Spanish agency in charge of it (again, we're not here to speculate...)
And a cynic would say also that the UK signing treaties does not mean much, as the Spanish know with the Colony of Gibraltar, which now occupies much more terrain than it should according to the Treaty of Utrecht. In fact, the treaty never ceded jurisdiction to Britain, but the propierty. So shut up.
Postscript: Spain signed the UN convention which DOES NOT give Gibraltar any territorial waters. Eccemaml just quoted this, but I'll repeat it for you to -finally- understand: "In ratifying the Convention, Spain wishes to make it known that this act cannot be construed as recognition of any rights or status regarding the maritime space of Gibraltar that are not included in article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht of 13 July 1713 concluded between the Crowns of Spain and Great Britain. Furthermore, Spain does not consider that Resolution III of the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea is applicable to the colony of Gibraltar, which is subject to a process of decolonization in which only relevant resolutions adopted by the United Nations General Assembly are applicable". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.59.120 ( talk) 17:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Nope, Gibnews. The Treaty of Utrecht was signed between the Crowns of Spain and Britain, whom never took the people into consideration when bartering land. And that's because the notion of nation-state is quite newer than the feudal notion of "propriety" as ownage of land and it's inhabitants.
The Treaty of Utrecht states: "The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever".
As you may know, there is a difference between the terms "propriety" and "sovereignty". To own something does not qualify you to impose a currency or law on it. Besides, and concerning the size of Gibraltar, it states: "the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging" (then, of course). Maps of that time do exist. And the area occupied by Gibraltar is now much larger.
And last, but not least, just because you do not share a position, it does not make it "ill-informed". While indeed "wikipedia is not really the place for ill informed opinions about a 300 year old treaty in Latin", you should not be surprised if someone responds to your own biased opinions. Or is it fair to say "Spain signing aggreements does not mean much" (because it is OBVIOUSLY a fact, a neutral statement, and it is absolutely necessary in this talk page), but it is inappropriate to answer such a fascist insular oversimplification? So you can dish it out but you can't take it?
With that said, keep nuclear submarines offshore and take care, man! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.59.120 ( talk) 12:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Instead of adding citation needed tags, why not spend some time collecting sources and being productive? Rewriting the article to show Spain in a good light is uphill work. -- Gibnews ( talk) 21:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Although the formal Act of Union was later, its generally claimed that Gibraltar was conquered by the British rather than the English. The history books, or at least the one at hand here, refer to raising the UNION flag and not the English flag. British to me signifies people from the British isles, and not necessarily those acting under the 1707 act or having 'British Citizen' in their passports.
Its a narrow point, but one that needs discussion rather than heavy handed threats. -- Gibnews ( talk) 23:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) I note that the editor involved, who is apparently an admin, has initiated a discussion elsewhere see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland#No Scotland in 1704. I thought it would be polite to inform other editors. Justin talk 13:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Jza84 does have a point. The previous version says that Gib was conquered "by Britain". The notion that it was conquered by the British three years before there was any such country is misleading. If a source asserts that Britain conquered Gibraltar in 1704, then that surely reflects poorly on that source's attention to detail.
The notion that Britain is meant in a geographical sense is bizarre. One wonders what role Glen Coe, or the White Cliffs of Dover, or the Lleyn peninsula played in these events. In any case, that's certainly not what's implied by the sentence. Conquest is a political act. It is not something that geography does. If somewhere is conquered by Britain, it is well implied that it was the state, not the island, that did the conquering. Regardless of what flag was raised, Gibraltar could not have been conquered by Britain in 1704 any more than it could have been conquered by the USA in 1704.
So, Gibraltar was conquered by England, by Scotland, or by both England and Scotland. England seems most likely because Scotland didn't join the War of the Spanish Succession until the Union. Best option, it seems to me, is to either leave it as is, or sidestep the question by saying it was conquered in the name of Queen Anne. Pfainuk talk 17:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
The UK did not come around until 1707. Gibralta was conquered by ENGLAND. The Unionist fanatics will just have to live with that!-- English Bobby ( talk) 14:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
No your wrong. Queen anne was Queen of England, Scotland and Ireland all differant nations at the time. Also some sources say British others English. The British ones were most likly written after the union happened some years later, mistaking English for British happens alot particulary on wikipedia where the unionists are trying to brush out England and Scotlands exsistance. Your beloved Union will be dead soon so give up.-- English Bobby ( talk) 12:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
British refers to people from the United Kingdom or the British ilses, though thats like calling the spanish 'Iberians'. The fact is Britain was not a political nation at the time, most people grasp this unlike you. As for the your little Union the conservatives are generally more simpathetic to the Anglo-Saxon cause than liberal parties and understand the feeling among English people. If you were a proper Englishman then you would understand this and would stop trying to rewrite history. But whatever makes you happy i guess!-- English Bobby ( talk) 19:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
All i was trying to do was stop people changing English history. As for the politics i was hardly saying anymore than gibnews.-- English Bobby ( talk) 20:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Well frankly i do care about this. The whole union thing maybe was of the track a little but the English/british point is relevant. Certain people are trying to airbrush Englands history out of existance which is very insulting to the growing number of us who are proud to be English! I can see your attemting to defend your chum. English Bobby ( talk) 10:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Firstly Gibnews was trying to change history by saying it was the BRITISH who captured Gibralta and secondly i spend half my time on this site correcting pages on events before 1707 where people have put British instead of the rightful ENGLISH. All you have to do is look because its everywhere. So there's the evidence! English Bobby ( talk) 13:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Good for you. I suggest you read WP:BITE. I did not ask to argue with you in the first place! English Bobby ( talk) 14:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Great Britain did not exist at the time so you are wrong. Everyone (well allmost) knows that the UK was formed in 1707 so your unionist opinion is wrong! English Bobby ( talk) 16:14, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I was simply saying that the Union did not exist at the time and saying otherwise is wrong and fairly offensive English Bobby ( talk) 15:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of the flag Gibraltar was captured by an ENGLISH army acting on the orders of an sovereign ENGLISH government (not including allies). Scotland was not even in the war until the act of union. English Bobby ( talk) 18:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of the references scotland was not in the war at the time so it can not have been a British conquest. Your just sticking your unionist opinion here! English Bobby ( talk) 19:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Your right this is silly. Wikipedia is the only website i've ever been on where the English people have to compromise their existance and history because of certain peoples political views be they labours PC selfloathing unionist brigade (see above), celtic supremacists or general Anglophobes!-- English Bobby ( talk) 20:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
If your going to say it was captured by the British purely on geographical grounds then you should say it was captured from the IBERIANS. The fact that the Union did not even exist at the time makes that unlikly. As for the smurf comment that just shows the serious flaw with wikipedia. Also your tone is no better than mine, though i'm not the one trying to rewrite history to satisfy your obvious political beliefs. English Bobby ( talk) 19:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well as everyone above agrees, that would be unlikly since there were no british or UK. If its so hard for you to grasp then why don't you find a reference that tell you when the union came about. Here's a clue (1st May 1707)-- English Bobby ( talk) 10:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Good get lost then! My understanding of British history is alot better than yours.-- English Bobby ( talk) 14:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Mabye you should stop watching american TV, since their the only people i've ever met (other than you) who can't tell the difference between British and English. Then again your not English so i understand that you know nothing of our history.-- English Bobby ( talk) 15:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
You tell me not to make personal attacks and then attack my spelling. For all you know i could have writing and spelling problems. Its regrettable old people can go senile.-- English Bobby ( talk) 15:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
UNINDENT
Personal attacks calling other editors "senile" cross a line, as you've reverted, I've raised it at the admin noticeboard here. Justin talk 17:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
The introduction of this material by 81.33.53.43 ( talk · contribs) violates Wikipedia's policy on original research. The source in question is being used to defend Spain's position, not cite it. RedCoat10 • talk 14:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it should be included the main reasons why gibraltarians want to remain british: they are almost tax free, including some unfair taxations (I think the unfair taxations will be removed soon), they receive almost 6 million tourists, mostly from spain, most due to this special taxation in alcohol and tobacco (spanish citizens in Linea de la Concepcion are very happy with this). Lots of businesses are settled each year in gibraltar, due to important tax reductions (the unfair taxation that will be removed). In conclusion, I think that the economical privileges of being british territory have a major influence in gibraltarians decision, even though culturaly, they feel like 50% andalusian and 50% british, and almost everyone speaks andalusian spanish. Spanish territories surrounding gibraltar feel very comfortable with this status too. If I don't receive a denial, I will try to state this facts in the article in the most neutral way —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enriquegoni ( talk • contribs) 23:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Well yeah I agree that is original research that their main reasons are economical. Even though, it would be an improvement of the article trying to explain to an uninformed reader their reason for the overwhelming 99% that vote no for Spain. Gibraltarians state that Franco policies of blocking Gibraltar were counterproductive, this was said by Gibraltars' prime minister. To talk about their cultural proximity to andalusia is not original research, 99% of them are bilingual spanish-english. An uninformed reader who sees a 99% victory of "no" can be lead to think that Gibraltarians are as british as the people in London. It is more complex than that and the article doesnt make an attemp to explain gibraltarian feelings about britain and about spain, and about their own identity, which could just be defined as "gibraltarian" Enriquegoni ( talk) 10:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Justin. I want to put this phrase, maybe in the section about the point of view of gibraltarians. "People like Dominique Searle (director of Gibraltar Chronicle) or Peter Montegriffo (former Gibraltar minister) have the opinion that spanish policies in Gibraltar during the last 30 years have contributed to weaken the gibraltarian mediterranean identity and to create a very strong british identity" please note that mediterranean identity is not the same as spanish identity, and that stronger british identity does not mean that Gibraltar had'nt got an own british identity before, only that they were more mediterranean. I don't know if any of you speak spanish, but this two gibraltarians state it on this video (in spanish though) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VydLsrJg1I the quote is almost exact. What I have to say about the economic claims. I think that if you write about spanish unbased claims about legality, you'll have to put also the spanish claims which were found correct by EU. The EU considered that some of Gibraltar taxes were unfair and has stated that Gibraltar has to abolish the reduced taxation to business that are not stablished directly inside Gibraltar by 2010. You can find the complete article here (BBC news): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4195531.stm Its ok to say that Gibraltar taxes and economy is legal, which is correct. But some spanish claims about this subject were indeed found correct by EU (that doesnt mean you are not legal or not ethically correct). On the recent tensions part, there have been new and sometimes big tensions between spanish guardia civil and british royal navy, which have almost broken apart the talks that 3 governments had about the issue. I think they would be 3 nice contributions. Gibnews, only 1 point, i'm sure that if Linea de la concepcion received 6 million tourists instead of 6 million illegal inmigrants there would be no unemployement there :) Enriquegoni ( talk) 22:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
With regard to this, I have no more to say what I said in my edit summary: "Wow, the reference explicitly mentions 11 out of 16 non self-governing territories, lists them (Gibraltar is not in the list), and there's a text on it in the Gibraltar article ??".
And I add, in fact, such a mention, if necessary, should be in the section "Spanish position" since it explicitly excludes "self-determination" in the Gibraltar case :-) -- Ecemaml ( talk) 16:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but the issue is that the text only applies to 11 territories. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 19:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC) PS: furthermore, such a mention should be in an inexistent paragraph on the conflict in the UN
The Government of Gibraltar greeted the text approved by the 4C UN on [date here][reference already existin]. Although it applied to non self-governing territories other that Gibraltar, the fact that it reaffirmed that, in the process of decolonization, "there was no alternative to the principle of self-determination"; and that the UK passed an ammendment that removed the mention to "dispute[s] over sovereignty", was considered as a support for the Gibraltarian stance [put a reference here].
The Government of Gibraltar greeted the text approved by the 4C UN on 20 October 2008[already existing reference]. Although it applied to non self-governing territories other than Gibraltar, the fact that it reaffirmed that, in the process of decolonization, "there was no alternative to the principle of self-determination"; and that the UK passed an ammendment that removed the mention to "dispute[s] over sovereignty" in the decolonization process, was considered as a support for the Gibraltarian stance [put a reference here].
Well, I won't revert this anymore. It simply stress the POV wording of the sentence. However, it's interesting to note that Wikipedia policies are suspended when it comes to Gibraltar articles (or better to Gibnews editions) and that, for instance, WP:CITEHOW does not apply any more. Instead of the title of the reference, it must be replaced by the text Gibnews picks. Interesting. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 11:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I've started on RFC on these articles here [3]. Justin talk 20:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
PACVEL'S OPINION —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.145.103.224 ( talk) 18:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi guys, just let me express my opinion on this very interesting discussion on the actual scope of the declaration of the UNGA's Fourth Committee. What I think is that it doesn't refer to the question of the decolonization of Gibraltar, and let me tell you why: The UN have already established a legal framework in which negotiations between Spain and the UK have to proceed. Thus, UNGA Resolution 2231, and subsequently Resolution 2353 did implicitly recognize the right to self-determination, of course, but not as a right to gain independence, since it said that this decolonization was to be fulfilled through the negotiation between Spain and the UK (implicitly respecting the Article X of Utrecht). SO if the UN is going to change the effects of Resolutions 2353 and 2231, it has to do so clearly and explicitly. Of course the wording of this Declaration of the 4th Committee can be understood as applying to Gibraltar, but for it to be of any effect to the dispute of Gibraltar, it should do so explicitly, in order to revoke its past doctrine on the issue.
Ecemaml will you just quit with the edit warring, removing cites is not acceptable - even by your own standards. Justin talk 11:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Ecemaml changed the title of the ref in the last edit, which has been reverted by Gibnews. I don't see the harm in Ecemaml's edit, I don't see the point either, but I see no reason for the effort and bad feeling of a revert to be necessary. Really chaps, come on. Ecemaml has been gracious enough to admit the point, I believe, there is little reason to rub it in with the revert of the rename. Also, it is rather clear we will have to look for a better source anyway. -- Narson ~ Talk • 11:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC) (EC)
Guys, it is rather clear that the atmosphere here is not condusive to editing at the moment, with various editors feeling attacked or frustrated. It is also coming up to Christmas (or whatever other holiday one likes to celebrate that involves family and good food). I propose that (And this is in no order) Justin, Cremallera, Ecemaml, Gibnews, Imalbornoz, myself and anyone else who feels they are involved sign up to a moratorium on these pages to last until 00:01 GMT on the 27th of December (so after Boxing Day). This will give everyone a chance to simmer down. On the 27th, I will try to post up a neutral summation of the issues brought forward and we can then move on from there, with the understanding that the entirity of ones comments must be about the proposed editions and not the edits.
This moratorium on editing would cover both the article and the talk page of: Gibraltar, Disputed Status of Gibraltar, Self-governing colony and History of Gibraltar. It would also cover any other article directly related to Gibraltar. This may freeze the articles (barring new editors) on what any editor might view as a 'wrong version', this is perfectly fine. For a few days the universe can take this. The long term interests of these artiles will be served. So, there would be no editing on those pages or talk pages during that time. If there is blatant and obvious vandalism, obviously that would be acceptable to revert.
After the moratorium, I am proposing a tabula rasa approach. That is, we approach the issues as if from new. We also try to forget any past perceptions or views on other editors. For those Babylon 5 fans out there, this will be our last, best hope for peace. I hope you will all join me in signing below, so that we can work together to build a better encyclopedia tomorrow by agreeing to step away for today, at least from this area of the wiki. -- Narson ~ Talk • 14:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Right, I am going to put out a summation of the issues as I see them, remember to approach this as new. If you think anything has been missed please use my talk page and I'll add it in.
The issues on Self-governing colony, as the most distantly related, should come first.
The issues on History of Gibraltar are slightly confusing at the moment, as we have a whole re-worked article being proposed. It is certainly a better starting point than what we have, might I propose we agree, as a group, that we have no objection to ChrisO's reworking in principle? After all, I am sure we all agree the history article has become a little stale. If that is not the case, then I will list some discussion points for that article as well.
On this talk page there is only one main issue that is continuing:
The mother article. So what troubles the Gibraltar page?
I will be creating discussion sections on each article with their section copied in. For this page, use the below section. All of the above: -- Narson ~ Talk • 14:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I think we need to include La_Línea_de_la_Concepción too, as I note the evil English have been eating the Spanish isthmus for Christmas. Although in practice the Chinese are more active on the former neutral ground with eating areas. I don't know how many articles actually need the story of the Gibraltar capture repeated. Perhaps we should have ONE article about it referenced from the others. -- Gibnews ( talk) 15:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Gibnews, is that possible to avoid pointless statements to the "evil English"? We're not here to discuss about the morality of imperialist powers of the past. England was as evil/good as the Spanish before them and the Americans right now. It's not our aim to discuss about it, so please, stick to the point.
When it comes to the actual point, I can't see the reason to your template. The isthmus was "eaten" by the British as it was not ceded in the Treaty of Utrecht. UK claims that they did it without Spanish complaint (and therefore prescription applies) and Spain claims that it complaimed everytime the British went North (and therefore prescription does not apply). The sources of each stance are, if noboby has deleted them, in the article that you possibly know ( Disputed status of the isthmus between Gibraltar and Spain), so I can't see any valid reason to include such a template. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
It's really boring to show sources and receive absolutely nothing. Your fantasies are interesting, but mostly irrelevant for Wikipedia. Can you play by the rules? -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:53, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm happy to leave the history article for now. Justin talk 15:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
The issue with this article is that its been edited to say that the British Dependent Territories and British Overseas Territories were a change of name only. The argument stagnated because the talk page discussion went round in circles with numerous strawmen proposed and a completely unsatisfactory text proposal. Justin talk 15:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
The issue is that Justin is wrong. Let's see, for instance Stephen Constantine (2009). Community and identity. The making of modern Gibraltar since 1704. Manchester University Press. p. 405. ISBN 978-0-7190-8054-8.:
It required for the UK not just the accelerated decolonization of most of its colonial 'properties' but a shift in linguistic gears and a renaming of the survivors of British Dependent Territories in 1981 and as British Overseas Territories in 2002
The problem is simply that the article lacks references and, generally speaking, is quite deficient. For instance, especially when talking about "self-governing" entities, fails to mention that most of current BOTs are listed as Non-self-governing territories by the UN. Moreover, it speaks about "Self-Governing Colony" and it does a argument somersault since it talks about BOTs. Some of them have self-governing institutions, while others haven't, so why they are referred in the article as a whole? -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:24, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Akrotiri and Dhekelia: population: 7,000 Cypriots ("who either work in the bases themselves, or on farmland within the boundaries of the bases"). So, again, is BOT status relevant in itself for self-government or it the UK Gov policy you mention? On the other hand, the "C24 crap" should be mentioned in an article dealing with "self-government", since they are included in a UN list on non-self-government territories. Why should such information be in an article dealing with Gibraltar is something beyond my understanding (and of course totally beyond the WP:NPOV policies) -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:42, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
"Interesting"? For whom? If you provide reliable sources on the relevance of those places with regard to "self-governing colonies", it would be interesting? Otherwise, your usual offenses to Spain are simply out of scope. We're not here to discuss about your problems with the country. Please, stick to the point. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 00:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
The statement is very significant because the Spanish and Argentine Governments used their proxies on the UN C24 to propose a text modifying the right to self-determination. It was unceremoniously rejected for a statement underlining the right to self-determination. Justin talk 15:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
1. Scope of the term Gibraltarian; Does it include pre-conquest persons? What guidelines should we use to decide who is notable in either case?
2. What level of statistics are acceptable for this page?
3. Perhaps attached to the above, do we need to create a subarticle for the Economy of Gibraltar?
4. The article in genera has become very large, do the above ideas help?
5. Should San Roque, the spanish town on the other side of the border, be included due to its links with Gibraltar?
UNINDENT Let's show some sources (even if they dislike some editors, for some untold reason):
It was the Gibraltar city council which on 1 August 1704 (NS) rejected the Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt's call to surrender; it was the city council which on 4 August accepted the inevitable; it was the city council with almost all the civilian population, and a small garriton, which on 7 August filed out, taking with it the city's standard and records; and it was the city council which in 1706, with royal authority, re-established itself in San Roque in what had once been part of Gibralta's domain as, according to King Philip, 'My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo'.
— Stephen Constantine (2009). Community and identity. The making of modern Gibraltar since 1704. Manchester University Press. ISBN 978-0-7190-8054-8.
So, again, yet another source establishing the relevance. At the same time that excessive length of the article is mention as argument to block the mention, irrelevant details are introduced. While it's said that it gives undue weight, a further clarification about relevance if provided above (this seems to be British Wikipedia, and therefore, Lady Di's stay in Gibraltar is more relevant that the destiny of the Gibraltar population). Interesting. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 00:05, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
6. The border closures: Are they important? To what are we attributing them? Is this sourced?