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SP UI, please stop removing the reference by USDOT regarding their contract list for various toll facilities. Federal contracts are very specific and often quite detailed (even more so than many laws), and if anybody knows the details of a contract with the Federal government, it's the Federal government. Period. Because the contract report was so specific regarding SR 913/Rickenbacker Causeway, any disputes you have with the reference you should take up with USDOT, and any further removal of the references will be taken up with admins... at least. Your removals are bordering on bad faith, to put it diplomatically. Remember how "wrong" B.Wind and I were about the former SR 5A? 147.70.242.39 19:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. According to Chapter 321.05, the FHP has the power "to patrol the state highways and regulate, control, and direct the movement of traffic thereon". Chapter 334.03 says that ""State road" means a street, road, highway, or other way open to travel by the public generally and dedicated to the public use according to law or by prescription and designated by the department, as provided by law, as part of the State Highway System." Thus, unless a law has been passed making the Rickenbacker Causeway a state road, it would appear that it may be a part of the State Highway System, but not a state road, as it is not maintained by FDOT. I find no statutes designating the causeway a state road.
Have you found anything describing this in layman's terms, specifically how non-state roads are designated as state highways to allow the FHP to operate over them?
Unfortunately your letter from the person at Key Biscayne is not a reliable source; can you find any records about it? Any newspaper articles? -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 07:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Strange - FDOT defines the State Highway System as "Roads under the jurisdiction of the State of Florida, and maintained by the Florida Department of Transportation or a regional transportation commission; includes roads with Interstate, US, and SR numbers." I'd guess the expressway authorities are RTCs, but I can't see Miami-Dade County being one. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 08:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
And chapter 335.02 says that "The department shall have the authority to locate and designate certain transportation facilities as part of the State Highway System and to construct and maintain them with funds available to the department. Any transportation facility when so located and designated shall become the property of the state and shall be under the jurisdiction and control of the department." This seems to say that any state highway is state-maintained. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 08:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Here's a map (PDF) of the state highway system from late 2005. It includes the north approach to the Causeway but not the Causeway itself. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 08:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
SPUI wrote "Assuming that's not misleading, it could apply to the road between US 1 and the toll booths, which is named Rickenbacker Causeway."
Wrong - the road north of the toll booths is not Rickenbacker Causeway but Southwest 26th Road, and it has been that way since before the original Rickenbacker Causeway was opened in 1947. In fact the Rickenbacker Causeway is the southward continuation of SW 26th Road.
In addition, SPUI's assertion of "Basically, anything not by FDOT calling it SR 913 is making generalizations, and cannot be relied on to get the extent right" is interesting in itself as it declares his bias without giving references indicating that there is no other reliable source of SR information, discounting both the local governments, the Highway Patrol, the Federal government, or anything else that he refuses to consider. This is not a case of objective editing but one of hero worship, and he is not willing to concede that either A) there is no definitive FDOT source stating the location of the termini, or B) that, despite being a collection of human beings, FDOT makes the occasional error, too (and the errors have been well documented, including those by SPUI on his former site). In this case, he'd rather press his argument about his interpretation of the evidence instead of resolving the issue. The only dispute regarding this is in SPUI's mind. I shall gladly delete this paragraph upon evidence to the contrary. 147.70.242.39 20:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Here's an interesting email I just got from FHP, which seems to contradict the law:
(I had emailed asking them why some former state roads like SR 531 are on their list.) -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 07:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
In light of the research stated on the FSR discussion page, the length that's stated here was that of the original configuration. We need to update this to include the length of the causeway and (to be consistent with USDOT) Crandon Boulevard. B.Wind 03:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You added "About 1997, the SR 913 designation was extended over the entire causeway from Crandon Boulevard north to I-95 for the purpose of allowing the Florida Highway Patrol to have jurisdiction over the highway to the newly-incorporated Village of Key Biscayne and the tourist attractions along the way." What is your source for this? The reference you added doesn't say any of that. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 07:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
... SPUI, will you kindly be civil on the discussion page? Lack of civility is hardly constructive, nor is it helpful for Wikipedia. B.Wind 13:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
In the U.S. state of Florida, State Road has several related meanings:
For the most part, 2 is a subset of 1 (the difference is mostly short connector routes and interchange ramps that are internally designated the same number as the road they connect to, as well as some unsigned routes). There are a few pieces of routes that are signed as State Roads but are locally maintained - State Road 15 in downtown Orlando is an example. Additionally, some locally-owend toll bridges are signed as parts of routes.
As for 3, B.Wind claims this is another meaning, The Florida Statutes include the following:
However, it also includes the following:
Note "public highways" rather than "state highways". An email to the FHP confirmed this:
State Road 913 is not a signed route, so it fails criterion 2. As per criterion 1, FDOT GIS data and pavement management reports indicate that the northern approach to the Rickenbacker Causeway, running from the toll booth north to Interstate 95, is state-maintained as SR 913. The causeway itself is owned and operated by Miami-Dade County. Thus, according to criterion 1, only the north approach is SR 913.
B.Wind (or his friend) claims the following reasons for the causeway being part of SR 913: (See Talk:State Road 913 (Florida).)
Now my rebuttal of these points:
Two final notes:
-- SPUI ( T - C) 12:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an "argument" by someone who is attempting to assert his "I'm above WP policy because I am right" argument when in fact it doesn't hold water.
All this time, he has yet to produce one piece of evidence indicating that the southern end of SR 913 is the Rickenbacker Causeway toll booth, despite the several references that have been provided not only showing that the current alignment of SR 913 extends to Key Biscayne, but also when the extension to the island occurred.
His argument of "the FDOT maps are not FDOT maps" is nonsense at every level, as they are printed, presented, paid for, and distributed by the State of Florida as an official state document - unless the presentation has changed for 2006, it's mentioned with the cost of printing the map on the document itself - and since it also states on the cover "Florida Department of Transportation," that makes it an official FDOT document. Therefore it must be accepted as such.
In addition, relying upon just one source - and one that is often self-contradictory, particularly in some parts of Florida - is asking for trouble in the error department. When human beings are involved, error will always creep into the equation; that's why we look at more than one source for verification, whether it be for the existence or nonexistence of a particular road... or, for that matter, where that road is located.
SPUI's citation of SR 948 being on NW 36th Street east of Okeechobee Road is a classic example. It had been shown in one source; subsequent sources revealed that location to be in error. It happens, but that's why we should be double-sourcing (or more) these things. Both B.Wind and SPUI have made similar errors over the past year - as have I in my limited editing last spring - but that's why we're supposed to verify the articles and assume good faith without getting involved in lame edit wars on four, five, or even six fronts (such as the idiotic one regarding the southern terminus of Interstate 95 in Hialeah).
Regarding SR 913/Rickenbacker Causeway, since there is a preponderance of evidence indicating that the articles are accurate, we can - and should - keep them that way... and separate. Clearly the two items are not one and the same, even if SR 913 stops at the toll booth. The articles can be updated and/or merged when we get concrete evidence (and not the 2006 Rand McNally, which falsely shows no SR 913 whatsoever but a CR 913) indicating otherwise.
And it's just as well that FDOT didn't respond to the request for a letter: it would have been OR, and there is far too much of that in the Florida State Roads articles, most notably the ones with exit lists and the history of the roads. Perhaps instead of denying information that was supported by references supplied by a different editor, we should do our best to try to confirm the given information with new references - and amend the articles as evidence to the contrary arise.
That, my friends, is assuming good faith and being constructive, as we should be working toward a common goal instead of attacking each other. That's the way to improve Wikipedia. 147.70.242.40 22:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
SW 1 Avenue to the Rickenbacker Causeway toll plaza. Thank you. SPUI <drspui@gmail.com > To jeffrey.dodge@dot.state.fl.us 10/21/2006 04:08 cc PM Subject State Road 913 What are the limits of State Road 913? Thanks.
-- SPUI ( T - C) 17:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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SP UI, please stop removing the reference by USDOT regarding their contract list for various toll facilities. Federal contracts are very specific and often quite detailed (even more so than many laws), and if anybody knows the details of a contract with the Federal government, it's the Federal government. Period. Because the contract report was so specific regarding SR 913/Rickenbacker Causeway, any disputes you have with the reference you should take up with USDOT, and any further removal of the references will be taken up with admins... at least. Your removals are bordering on bad faith, to put it diplomatically. Remember how "wrong" B.Wind and I were about the former SR 5A? 147.70.242.39 19:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. According to Chapter 321.05, the FHP has the power "to patrol the state highways and regulate, control, and direct the movement of traffic thereon". Chapter 334.03 says that ""State road" means a street, road, highway, or other way open to travel by the public generally and dedicated to the public use according to law or by prescription and designated by the department, as provided by law, as part of the State Highway System." Thus, unless a law has been passed making the Rickenbacker Causeway a state road, it would appear that it may be a part of the State Highway System, but not a state road, as it is not maintained by FDOT. I find no statutes designating the causeway a state road.
Have you found anything describing this in layman's terms, specifically how non-state roads are designated as state highways to allow the FHP to operate over them?
Unfortunately your letter from the person at Key Biscayne is not a reliable source; can you find any records about it? Any newspaper articles? -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 07:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Strange - FDOT defines the State Highway System as "Roads under the jurisdiction of the State of Florida, and maintained by the Florida Department of Transportation or a regional transportation commission; includes roads with Interstate, US, and SR numbers." I'd guess the expressway authorities are RTCs, but I can't see Miami-Dade County being one. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 08:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
And chapter 335.02 says that "The department shall have the authority to locate and designate certain transportation facilities as part of the State Highway System and to construct and maintain them with funds available to the department. Any transportation facility when so located and designated shall become the property of the state and shall be under the jurisdiction and control of the department." This seems to say that any state highway is state-maintained. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 08:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Here's a map (PDF) of the state highway system from late 2005. It includes the north approach to the Causeway but not the Causeway itself. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 08:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
SPUI wrote "Assuming that's not misleading, it could apply to the road between US 1 and the toll booths, which is named Rickenbacker Causeway."
Wrong - the road north of the toll booths is not Rickenbacker Causeway but Southwest 26th Road, and it has been that way since before the original Rickenbacker Causeway was opened in 1947. In fact the Rickenbacker Causeway is the southward continuation of SW 26th Road.
In addition, SPUI's assertion of "Basically, anything not by FDOT calling it SR 913 is making generalizations, and cannot be relied on to get the extent right" is interesting in itself as it declares his bias without giving references indicating that there is no other reliable source of SR information, discounting both the local governments, the Highway Patrol, the Federal government, or anything else that he refuses to consider. This is not a case of objective editing but one of hero worship, and he is not willing to concede that either A) there is no definitive FDOT source stating the location of the termini, or B) that, despite being a collection of human beings, FDOT makes the occasional error, too (and the errors have been well documented, including those by SPUI on his former site). In this case, he'd rather press his argument about his interpretation of the evidence instead of resolving the issue. The only dispute regarding this is in SPUI's mind. I shall gladly delete this paragraph upon evidence to the contrary. 147.70.242.39 20:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Here's an interesting email I just got from FHP, which seems to contradict the law:
(I had emailed asking them why some former state roads like SR 531 are on their list.) -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 07:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
In light of the research stated on the FSR discussion page, the length that's stated here was that of the original configuration. We need to update this to include the length of the causeway and (to be consistent with USDOT) Crandon Boulevard. B.Wind 03:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You added "About 1997, the SR 913 designation was extended over the entire causeway from Crandon Boulevard north to I-95 for the purpose of allowing the Florida Highway Patrol to have jurisdiction over the highway to the newly-incorporated Village of Key Biscayne and the tourist attractions along the way." What is your source for this? The reference you added doesn't say any of that. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 07:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
... SPUI, will you kindly be civil on the discussion page? Lack of civility is hardly constructive, nor is it helpful for Wikipedia. B.Wind 13:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
In the U.S. state of Florida, State Road has several related meanings:
For the most part, 2 is a subset of 1 (the difference is mostly short connector routes and interchange ramps that are internally designated the same number as the road they connect to, as well as some unsigned routes). There are a few pieces of routes that are signed as State Roads but are locally maintained - State Road 15 in downtown Orlando is an example. Additionally, some locally-owend toll bridges are signed as parts of routes.
As for 3, B.Wind claims this is another meaning, The Florida Statutes include the following:
However, it also includes the following:
Note "public highways" rather than "state highways". An email to the FHP confirmed this:
State Road 913 is not a signed route, so it fails criterion 2. As per criterion 1, FDOT GIS data and pavement management reports indicate that the northern approach to the Rickenbacker Causeway, running from the toll booth north to Interstate 95, is state-maintained as SR 913. The causeway itself is owned and operated by Miami-Dade County. Thus, according to criterion 1, only the north approach is SR 913.
B.Wind (or his friend) claims the following reasons for the causeway being part of SR 913: (See Talk:State Road 913 (Florida).)
Now my rebuttal of these points:
Two final notes:
-- SPUI ( T - C) 12:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an "argument" by someone who is attempting to assert his "I'm above WP policy because I am right" argument when in fact it doesn't hold water.
All this time, he has yet to produce one piece of evidence indicating that the southern end of SR 913 is the Rickenbacker Causeway toll booth, despite the several references that have been provided not only showing that the current alignment of SR 913 extends to Key Biscayne, but also when the extension to the island occurred.
His argument of "the FDOT maps are not FDOT maps" is nonsense at every level, as they are printed, presented, paid for, and distributed by the State of Florida as an official state document - unless the presentation has changed for 2006, it's mentioned with the cost of printing the map on the document itself - and since it also states on the cover "Florida Department of Transportation," that makes it an official FDOT document. Therefore it must be accepted as such.
In addition, relying upon just one source - and one that is often self-contradictory, particularly in some parts of Florida - is asking for trouble in the error department. When human beings are involved, error will always creep into the equation; that's why we look at more than one source for verification, whether it be for the existence or nonexistence of a particular road... or, for that matter, where that road is located.
SPUI's citation of SR 948 being on NW 36th Street east of Okeechobee Road is a classic example. It had been shown in one source; subsequent sources revealed that location to be in error. It happens, but that's why we should be double-sourcing (or more) these things. Both B.Wind and SPUI have made similar errors over the past year - as have I in my limited editing last spring - but that's why we're supposed to verify the articles and assume good faith without getting involved in lame edit wars on four, five, or even six fronts (such as the idiotic one regarding the southern terminus of Interstate 95 in Hialeah).
Regarding SR 913/Rickenbacker Causeway, since there is a preponderance of evidence indicating that the articles are accurate, we can - and should - keep them that way... and separate. Clearly the two items are not one and the same, even if SR 913 stops at the toll booth. The articles can be updated and/or merged when we get concrete evidence (and not the 2006 Rand McNally, which falsely shows no SR 913 whatsoever but a CR 913) indicating otherwise.
And it's just as well that FDOT didn't respond to the request for a letter: it would have been OR, and there is far too much of that in the Florida State Roads articles, most notably the ones with exit lists and the history of the roads. Perhaps instead of denying information that was supported by references supplied by a different editor, we should do our best to try to confirm the given information with new references - and amend the articles as evidence to the contrary arise.
That, my friends, is assuming good faith and being constructive, as we should be working toward a common goal instead of attacking each other. That's the way to improve Wikipedia. 147.70.242.40 22:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
SW 1 Avenue to the Rickenbacker Causeway toll plaza. Thank you. SPUI <drspui@gmail.com > To jeffrey.dodge@dot.state.fl.us 10/21/2006 04:08 cc PM Subject State Road 913 What are the limits of State Road 913? Thanks.
-- SPUI ( T - C) 17:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Florida State Road 913. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:28, 2 January 2017 (UTC)