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Archive 1 |
To answer the question of the importance of the event, I've added the following paragraph, as well as the assertion that Starwood is both the largest festival in the American Magical Movement, and the broadest in scope, serving many other communities as well.
"The Starwood Festival has provided an important interface between different groups and their spokespeople, promoting their working together on projects of common interest, and discovering that their similarities and more important than their differences and their differences are a strength and resource to be celebrated. Many attendees and presenters have reported sunsequent involvement in the activities of other represented groups; for instance, Halim El-Dabh and Gilli Smyth with Timothy Leary in the early nineties. Harvey Wasserman has been interviewed and quoted in books and publicatons of the Neo-Pagan movement, an audience he was unaware of before speaking at Starwood. Halim's work with a Rock group (for the first time), Einstein's Secret Orchestra, began at Starwood, and Stephen Gaskin was able to promote aid for Katrina victims through Plenty International at the festival. Synergistic relationships occur regularly there, and the attendees get the opportunity to interact directly with many authors and artists at once in ways that they could not afford to or arrange for individually." Rosencomet 17:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Advertizing puff piece. And so is every article I have run across which links to it. I am cleaning links to the disambiguation page "Celtic ( You can help!), and keep running across links to this in "articles" which are flat-out advertisements. -- Sean Lotz 09:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I think it still reads like an advertisement and link farm. -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 03:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
From WP:V
Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as:
So we have one source: the Starwood website, which verifies the names of performers. There is no reason doubt that this this is an reasonably acurate list of names, and many of the names can be easilly verified throuhg a quick google search, for instance [1] independantly verifies that Gilly was at Starwood, [2] independantly verifies Lerry was there. We could waste a lot of time trying to source all this, but there is no need according to above policy.
Whether all these are notable enough for inclusion is a different question. -- Salix alba ( talk) 15:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The lead-in text is too long. It's four paragraphs and one of them is a long one. MoS (or somewhere) states the lead-in should be three or less paragraphs. If somebody (original editor?) could shorten and move material to other places, it would improve the article. We want to see at least the top of the table of contents. - 999 ( Talk) 16:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There are two footnotes on the article page that aren't really footnotes. The object of the footnote is to give the reader enough information to verify the information independent of the authors of the article. This has not been done. For exampe, the word "Krasner" doen't tell you anything. NLOleson 17:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC) User making this comment was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse
I've deleted, at least for now, everything for which a citation was requested that has not been provided. References have been added, and I think we're pretty much OK on this listing barring very nit-picky points. Now how do I eliminate the statements at the top of the page saying citations aren't there and so on?
Ad Astra, Rosencomet Rosencomet 15:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
What's up with this edit: 26 August 2006) It looks like Flinders (Flinders was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse) just made every other word a link. I'm getting tired and don't want to mess with it right now, but it looks pretty ... pointless. Is there any possible reason for making a link out of the word "night"? I'm asking because I'm sleepy and maybe I'm missing something obvious. -- Sean Lotz 13:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
From Krassner's article:* Krassner, Paul (2005). Life Among the Neopagans in The Nation, August 24, 2005 (web only).
The annual Starwood Festivals have been presented by the Cleveland-based Association for Consciousness Exploration, a group of about thirty friends . . .
How odd, odd, odd this ensemble of Association for Consciousness Exploration , Starwood Festival, and WinterStar Symposium is. ABSmyth 19:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC) User was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse
Odder than you can imagine. They began in the mid to late 70s as an undergrad organization called the Chameleon Club, made up of two groups: a bunch of students who hung around the Hillel House at Case Western Reserve University who were into the Psychedelic Experience and Futurism (and Firesign Theatre), and a group of Society for Creative Anachronism members who were into Neo-Paganism and fantasy literature. There were suprising common themes, which seemed to crystalize in the works of Robert Anton Wilson. They became the first group to bring Timothy Leary to Cleveland and some Neo-Pagan "names" as well (like Dr. Raymond Buckland and Jim & Selena Fox of Circle), and had a hit with their creation of the Starwood Festival, first held at the same site as the SCA Pennsic War.
They founded ACE in 1984 as an organization that sounded more "real" for renting facilities (like resorts for the WinterStar Symposium), and became lecture agents for Wilson and others, and the first "Parapsychologists" listed in the Cleveland Yellow pages. In between ghost-busting (just for fun) and running festivals and symposiums, they ran a "mind-spa" with a sensory isolation tank, bio-feedback equipment, and mind-machines for stress management and electronically-assisted meditation.
As time went on, they began producing their own line of lecture & music tapes (now CDs & DVDs) and a few books, created their own in-house music groups, and grew their events to the point that they could afford to bring in bigger-name talent. Their ranks have included many of their favorite authors and performers either on an active or honorary status, and they've become an important networking body between the different communities they overlap. Their events are known to feature more fun than anyone should be allowed to have; people grin until their jaw-muscles hurt, and continue buzzing with energy from weird magical ceremonies, vision-quest workshops, all-night drumming and partying, great music & multi-media events, and so on for weeks after going home.
Of course, I wouldn't post this praise as part of a Wiki article, and I'm far from neutral. But if you get a chance to go to one of their events, do so. Who can't use a few days of naked Pagan psychedelic drumming & dancing & carrying on, with a chance to enjoy a dozen or so top-notch workshops and concerts? Rosencomet 18:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the designer, Frank Barney (owner of Brushwood Folklore Center), the Roundhouse is based on a Celtic design, not a Native American design (although looking at it, I can understand why one would make that mistake; it looks kind of like the skeleton of a teepee).
Rather than having lots of debates on various pages about whether there should be links to starwood, it seems sensible to have the debate in one place, where we can build a consensus.
The appropriate policy/guidline are
For example ArcheDream singles out starwood as the one venue listed out of about 100 gigs. To me this seems to be undue weight. I've change the page to now link to the full tour dates. -- Salix alba ( talk) 09:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Use this: personal attack removed by Rosencomet ( talk · contribs) of his articles, by inserting www.rosencomet.com links as so-called "citations". It this moment there are at least 115 links from Wikipedia to his site. This is assuming he is not still inserting this link to a search engine: http://www. freefind . com/. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timmy12 ( talk • contribs)
I don't agree with this excuse to cut the copy of an aerticle and say it's more "encyclopedic" that way. I ve read plenty of articles in encyclopedias, and own a Britanica, a World Book, and an Outline of Knowledge encyclopedia, and they don't shy away from complete descriptions or evocative language. None of the content that sme have wanted to cut was non-factual.
The treatment of Wiki articles is very uneven. I don't see these conditions put on the Burning Man listing, and I've seen many others that include purpose of the event, principles, objectives, and variouis activities that take place without being accused of including "non-notable" information, being "chatty" or "too much like an ad".
An encyclopedia is not a dictionary. There is no reason to excise language that adds to the reader's understanding of the nature of the subject, or differentiates it from other subjects based on it's unique characteristics. There is no reason for an article to be terse, incomplete, or boring. Encyclopedias are not written that way.
And I'd like to see less chopping up by people who don't contribute articles of their own. I've created many, and contributed to many more. Rosencomet 19:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The terms New Age, Magical, and Spiritual overlap, but none of them completely include the other. Starwood features components of each category that are not included in the other; to simply call it a New Age event would not be an accurate description, nor just a Pagan festival. Rosencomet 19:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Rosencomet, four experienced admins, one of them an arbitrator, have now removed the worst of the promotional language and triviality from the article, and you have added it back every time. You've violated the WP:3RR, and I see several people have warned you about that on your page, so please be aware that in the future you're not going to get away with something like that ever again. Quite apart from the 3RR, please consider the possibility that these people are more familiar with policy than you are. Having all that redundancy and promospeak in there doesn't make the article more "complete", it merely makes it more bad. Wikipedia is not for advertising. If you insist on keeping the article in such a miserable state, I see no other option than to propose it for deletion instead. Btw, your wild guess that these are people who "don't contribute articles of their own" is amusing to anybody familiar with their output. Better not go any further down that road, you'll only embarrass yourself. Bishonen | talk 19:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC).
Please READ the most recent version of the article I wrote. Let's see what I have added in the last time:
I included the topic magical and spiritual, and still state that the phrase "New Age topics" does NOT cover them adequately. Many New Age folks do not accept that magical practice is part of what they do, and there are many spiritual practices that are NOT New Age ones. I also added the topic "mind/body sciences". I included the founding date of the event. I cut the repeat of the phrase "these communities" and just made it "them". I trimmed the third paragraph MORE than the one you keep reverting to. I added an additional type of dance that is featured at the event, then cut a paragraph out.
I created a "Features of the event" section, and cut some of the same other paragraphs that the version you revert to cut. I changed "that can be seen from space" to "visible from space". I added "Sufiism" to the list of spiritual paths featured under the People section.
Otherwise, I have accepted a lot of the cuts that have been made. Gone is the mention of seasonal campers, wood-busters, the line about the intent of the event, the mention of the event being a yearly vacation for some, the "celebrating their diversity" line, and more. In fact, I think I have eliminated most of what has been objected to, while making the description of the event and its components more complete.
I urge you to actually READ the newer copy, and to compare it to such sites as the Burning Man site, and explain why reverting to that one rather than using this one is an improvement. In my opinion, the addition of a History section, a Principles section, a Community section, a Timeline section, and all sorts of other information would be encyclopedic and in keeping with the rest of Wikipedia, along with graphs and photos. I see no reason to harass me over the present content.
However, I apologize for violating the 4-revert rule. It was an accident, and I did self-revert as soon as it was pointed out to me. I'm not sure I did it right, but I certainly did not revert it again until Timmy12 stepped in, and he has a history of staking my articles and reverting them. Rosencomet 21:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Please explain to me why the section you excised is "ad like". First, though, take a look at the Burning Man article. (not that I have anything against them)
An ad would say "a spectacular life-changing experience" or "great value at a great price" or "the finest in the world", or some other ad copy. The "Features of the event" section is just that: a list of some of the things you would find there if you, like the author of the encyclopedia article, had been there. It doesn't say why a sweat lodge is wonderful or what its benefits are, it doesn't say "you'll thrill to the pulsing rhythms" or "cool off in the placid waters of the pool" or "your mind will expand, your spirit will soar, and your soul will be nurtured". It just lists some of the structures, the existence of some resources, and adds to a complete "encyclopedic" description of the event.
Look at the Grand Canyon article, for instance. It doesn't just give the length and depth. It presents a history, offers pictures, discusses who comes to it and what they do there; hiking, climbing, endurance runners. Who has been there, why it's unique.
Look at the Woodstock article. The Glastonbury Festival. Renaissance Fair. Does this simple list really constitute making the article into an ad? Does it really not make the description more complete? Rosencomet 22:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have posed a question to Salix Alba, but have not heard a reply. I have not put that section back at this time, since I am hoping for a real discussion of the issue rather than just rocks thrown from a distance, as you seem to favor. First you argue that it's "not encyclopedic", then that it's "too ad-like", and now that it's "trivial".
I think you are missing the point. I disagree with your assessment of my argument. I was NOT saying other articles are just as bad. I was quite clearly saying that a list of the features of an event IS part of an encyclopedic article about that event. As both an event organizer and attendee, I do not agree that they are trivial, nor that it is "promocopy". Many events in the Neo-Pagan movement, for instance, have none of these features. Starwood is unique in both the production values of their stage offerings, how generally well known and cross-genre' their entertainers and speakers are (especially outside the usual audience of such events), and the degree of family-oriented programming and support and safety arrangements. Frankly, I would not only consider this list acceptable (though I'd be happy to delete the times, as Apostle12 suggested), but would see nothing wrong with a "History" section, a "Principles" section, a "Demographics" section, and other items (photos, for instance)that would make the article about this ground-breaking 26-year-old major event in its community more complete.
(You also seem to have quite an attitude; this sounds like threats, scolding and insult, and I don't see where you get the right, especially if you are just a volunteer like me. I have not had any problem with administrators; they seem to agree with my arguments generally.) Rosencomet 17:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. "As both an event organizer and attendee, I do not agree that they are trivial, nor that it is "promocopy"." And you really don't see that a neutral outsider, who has no dog in the fight, is better placed than an organizer and attendee to evaluate these things? Whatever. How about this, then: after you'd told me and Salix Alba several times that it was unfair to remove Starwood Festival's how-to sections and let Burning Man keep theirs —which is actually no way to argue on a volunteer website, as I said— I took my red pencil to Burning Man and did an encyclopedic cleanup on it. I removed a lot of text. See how nobody reverted me? This was the only talkpage reaction I got. I get the impression they were pleased to see the article improved. Food for thought? Bishonen | talk 18:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC).
Of COURSE I don't think that someone who is not an event organizer and attendee is better placed (whatever that means) to decide what is or isn't trivial about an article about an event, any more than a musician isn't suited to make such judgements about a musical article, or a mathematician about a math article, or a teacher about an education issue... I think you get the idea. And I get ABSOLUTELY NO SATISFACTION in the knowledge that I may have caused you to make cuts in the description of another event. I feel sorry if I have in any way made that article a target for your "red pencil". Nor is it logical to assume that if you removed something from another article and did not get an objection that this means your actions on this one had merit. (And stop talking for Salix Alba.)
Again, my argument was that the claim that the inclusion of this simple list of features of the event neither was "not encyclopedic" nor "ad-like", but that they made the description of the subject of the article more complete. Rosencomet 19:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether it is appropriate to add internal links (intra-Wikipedia links) to this article to dozens of articles on people and groups who have appeared at this festival. It is also about whether it is appropriate to add external links to the website of the group which organizes the festival to those same dozens of articles. 04:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if it's appropriate for me to comment in the "comments" section as I am an editor involved in the current dispute but this is more about the AfC than the dispute itself. I hope this AfC will bring in different editors' voices and eyes. I believe both sides can benefit from such input. The dispute now has a certain static and predictable quality in the interactions. I don't expect resolution here but I would like to hear what other editors think, particularly about the basic issue outlined at the top of this AfC. -- Pigman ( talk • contribs) 19:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Please see /mediation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CheNuevara ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
I have tagged a few places which need clarification. Please elaborate on which "several other communities" are referred to in the lead. Also please clarify what "consciousness-altering devices", "movement systems" and "mind /body sciences" are - these are all very ambiguous terms and mean a lot of different things. I think if these are better explained, they won't need to be sourced - it is just very confusing the way it is currently worded. - WeniWidiWiki 07:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Just off the top of my head...
Re: Drumming & Dance classes: workshops by Babatunde Olatunji (African Drumming), Daveed Korup (Middle eastern), Raquy Danzinger (Middle Eastern), Louis Martinie' (both Voodoo drumming & Celtic Bodhran), Amampondo (African Drum & Dance), Yaya Diallo (African Drumming), Baka Beyond (Afro-Celtic), Sikiru Adepoju (African Talking Drum), Muruga Booker (African Drumming, Trance Drumming), Badal Roy (Tabla), Larry Myers (Israeli Dancing), Don Waterhawk (Native American Dance), Laurence Galian (Sufi Dancing), Louis Nunez (Santeria Drumming), Max Pollack of Cyro Baptista & Beat the Donkey (Rhumba Tap), Lia Fail (Celtic Music), Brahm Stuart of Shaman (Celtic Bodhran), Halim El-Dabh (African Drumming, Dance & Chant), Neil Chastain (Clave), Jim Barleycorn (Feadog), Billy Bardo (Bodhran), Kelly McGowan (Bodhran), Airto Moreira (Afro-Brazilian Rhythms), Zimra (Belly Dancing), a whole lot more belly dancing & African & Middle Eastern drumming and other kinds ... Is that enough? There's more.
Re: The Roundhouse. Frank Barney, the owner of Brushwood Folklore Center (where Starwood has been held for over 15 years) and the designer of the Roundhouse told me, and has said on numerous occasions speaking to the public, that the Roundhouse is based on a structure of Celtic design he researched in a book while studying standing stone & labyrinth designs for future Brushwood projects (a labyrinth stands there now; he has discussed the standing stone project with Rob Roy, an expert on such matters, and the people at 4 Quarters Farm who have ther own). Frank is a member of ADF, by the way. I don't know how to document this, but I'm pretty sure I saw a discussion of this by him on a Yahoo group or some other chat group. I did verify this with him before changing the info on the Brushwood Folklore Center article (which has since been taken down), which incorrectly called it a Native American design. (I think Sirius Rising, their main event, deserves an article by the way.) Rosencomet 17:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the clean-up tags on the "Featured speakers" and "Featured entertainers" sections of the Starwood Festival article are inappropriate. There are three reasons listed for putting such a tag on a list:
1. "poorly defined" - I think the lists are accurately defined as lists of "some of the past featured speakers/entertainers"
2. "unverified" - every name on this list can be verified by citation from the website of the event organizers IF IT IS REQUIRED, and these citations have been agreed to be appropriate for the purpose of asserting that these people did, in fact, appear at the event, though their NEED has not been established. The website is listed at the bottom of the article.
3. "indiscriminate" - out of MANY more speakers and entertainers, these lists have been reduced to only those notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles (with the exception of two directors of the event's host organization). They are, I contend, as notable for an event as a bibliography or discography is for an author or recording artists, yet EVERY name has NOT been included. These lists show the diversity, notability and scope of the guest line-ups, and show an assortment of both celebrity and up-and-coming individuals: authors, organization founders, ground-breakers in their fields and arts, etc.
If there is some reason to tag a specific name, it can be discussed, but I think tagging the entire list for something as vague as "clean-up", and thereby alluding to standards that don't really exist, is excessive. If you think a particular name doesn't belong there, it should be discussed on a case-by-case basis, starting with YOUR reason that a particular notable speaker/entertainer should NOT be on the list. Rosencomet 18:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Eh, that's not why I tagged them for cleanup. I feel that they need to be broken into sub-cats or something, because currently all they are is a huge unreadable list of names. Please look over at Lollapalooza or Burning Man for ideas - because at this time it is just an unwieldy list of names which goes against WP:NOT. Don't read into my intentions - I was not doing it to be malicious. - WeniWidiWiki 00:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
First of all, Happy New Year to you all.
I have just left this note on User:CheNuevara's talk page:
I have just seen an action taken by User: RasputinJSvengali during this arbitration (and, as far as I know, an ongoing mediation) which not only rewrites the text of the article and deletes the entire "Featured Speakers" and "Featured Entertainers" sections, but adds "Satanists" and "the Illuminates_of_Thanateros" to the list of people attending. I am afraid that this has been done to bait me into a revert war during the arbitration. As an objective party who has offered to help with my efforts to rectify the problems caused by the disagreements between myself and other editors, I would like to ask you to reverse this action and request that User: RasputinJSvengali refrain from such actions. For several weeks I have only reduced the number of links and added 3rd party citations, all of which were requested by editors during the mediation, and have engaged in civil discussion on issues related to the article on the discussion page without actually doing the editing (except for one grammatical edit). Thank you. Rosencomet 17:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
In the wake of RasputinJSvengali's action and BostonMa's subsequent revertion of parts of it, I made some minor but now necessary (IMO) grammatical corrections and link fixes. I also replaced the ambiguous mention of "Neo-Druidic Groups" with the specific mention of ADF and Asatru. I hope no one minds that; presenters from those traditions can be cited with references to the ACE website if one wishes: Adf members Isaac Bonewits, Brian Perrin, Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison, Ian Corrigan, Liafal, and Bill Elston to name a few; Asatru members Diane L. Paxson, Laurel Mendes, Anne Sheffield, and Victorria Johnson among others. I question the introduction of "Chaos Magickians", but I guess it can stay. Lyrus Landholder, Nema, Taylor Ellwood, and a few others might qualify; but I don't feel confident enough to have added it myself. Rosencomet 19:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you think "something needs to be done". However, I quite specifically did not object to it in principle, I just discussed how one could or should do that. I disagree with the notion that there is a problem that must be solved here: the Lollapalooza article you referenced has extensive lists of entertainers and the days they played and which stages they played on. I just don't understand why you object to these simple alphabetical lists. I think it encourages people to read another article in Wikipedia about a notable individual, and helps support the notability of the event. What's the ADVANTAGE to Wikipedia of reducing that? How is that not "lessening the article"? What exactly is "unproductive" about these lists?
And as to the Burning Man article, would you really support sections on the history of the event, the demographics, the relative heights of the Starwood bonfire, other events that have been inspired by Starwood, the lay-out of the grounds, the effects on the environment, terminology, etc etc? Then why have you and those with you on this objected to lists of the features of the events as too ad-like when much more detailed descriptions exist on those, and other, articles about events? Besides, as far as I can tell, Burning Man is a completely different type of event (except that both have a big burning thing on the last night), which doesn't book and feature acts and workshops and therefor no one has listed them. It's a voluntary art festival, not a spiritual and educational event with entertainment. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I know of NO Temple of Set member who has been a speaker at Starwood as a representative of that organization or as a Satanist, and the only talk about Satanism that has happened at Starwood was about how to help the public not confuse Paganism and Wiccan with Satanism. Laurence Galian spoke only about Sufiism and other non-Satanic subjects; this strikes me as an attempt to blackwash an event that YOU KNOW VERY WELL has nothing to do with Satanism. If you examine every speaker bio, you'll find people listing the fact that they are nurses, farmers, metallugists, architects, military personnel and electrical engineers. Must we list those groups as attendees, too, if they are not there in that capacity? Is every interest of every attendee or speaker a notable fact?
And to list as attendees at Starwood anyone who shares an interest with someone who wrote a book that sells in the ACE bookstore is pretty ridiculous. It is a bookstore, and contains books by plenty of people that the organization does not endorse the content of. Heck, there have been copies of the Malleus Mallificarum, the Koran, Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, and books on conservative politics. They are there because people who buy from the bookstore do research on such subjects. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully since these posts are old, the satanism issue has been settled. As an attendee and an editor, and an archivist, there is no historical basis for using the word satanist anywhere on the Starwood website. By sticking to the literal and exact titles of organisations and orders that have presented no group labeling itself as satanic has spoken or presented at a Starwood event. I hope that this issue is settled. A list of speakers and performers however does give the reader a sense of the type of festival event this is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maegdlyn ( talk • contribs) 18:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm unfamiliar with the term Neo-Sufi except as used by Hakim Bey (who really should appear at Starwood IMO). The main Sufi speakers that have appeared ar Starwood (that I can recall offhand) are Laurence Galian and Paul Garbanzo (AKA Paul Hudert, AKA Misha Karamazov, a member of the Flying Karamazov Brothers). Their bios don't use that term. There is no "Neo-Sufi" article on Wikipedia. That's about all I can say on the matter for now. Rosencomet 18:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Once again, an attempt is made to circumnavigate an ongoing arbitration by those on one side of the issue, to get what they want by any possible means.
I object to the placement of these tags. The person placing them said above that they are unreadable, and that I should "look at such articles as Lollapalooza for ideas". Well, that article has lists of 300-400 acts, every act that has been there, listed by year and which stage they performed on, dating back to the first year, with plenty of repetition of names, and many acts that are not notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article.
The lists here do not represent everyone who has appeared by any means. Except for two directors of the event, every speaker and entertainer listed is notable enough to have their own article. All can be verified on the ACE website, a link for which is in the reference section. Most have 3rd-party citations on their own articles to further support notability of their appearance, but I have not cluttered this article up with all these links.
I contend that these lists of past speakers and entertainers lends notability to the event itself in a very real way. They illustrate the fact that this is not just a party, or a retreat with a few workshops, but a major event with a cirriculum comparable to a week of a university summer-session. There is NO resource like it in the community it serves; it has featured more authors and leaders of the traditions they are involved in than any festival of its kind in America, and more major entertainment (most of whom are also instructors), and for more years (and for no per-class additional charge). The variety of presentors and their popularity gives the reader a better idea of what the event is, while offering an easy link to look up each one's article for further research. I don't think chopping away at them would improve the article one bit, and I see no clear criteria by which to do so.
I think the tags requesting clean-up are inappropriate, and they should be taken down. I am loathe to do so myself, since there is an ongoing arbitration on the article, one which I think should have been honored before these tags were placed. These lists have already been cleaned up, as the person placing the tags well knows, and a lot of work went into doing so. Rosencomet 00:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
So out of one side of your mouth, you are stating that the reason that edits to the Starwood articles have stopped is because everything is resolved and there are no further contentions. Yet here, you are accusing me of circumventing the Arbitration by merely switching out two templates? Are you suggesting that no editors should touch any of the hundreds of related articles while the arbitration is under way? - WeniWidiWiki 19:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Mattisse has requested assistance. She has mentioned this article in her request. I am starting to look into the issue. Any information people could give me would be very welcome. Cheers. SilkTork 20:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, Kenny & Tziporah Klein is not a notable enough act for this list. If this act gets a non-contested Wikipedia article, I may change my mind. Sam Andrew is part of Big Brother & the Holding Company, and probably does not need a separate listing (unlike, say, Stephen Kent, who appeared a different year as a solo artist & speaker). James Gurley was not with Big Brother when they appeared at Starwood, and has never been there so far. Rosencomet 17:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
My opinion on the lists: Laundry lists are listcruft and not encyclopedic. I think they need to be reduced to those individuals who have played an important part in the festival, and then those names integrated into the text in a way that demonstrates their relevance and notability. For instance, it seems to have been deleted now, but I recall reading somewhere that Diana Paxson designed a torchlit procession ritual that is (or was) a regular part of Starwood. So something to the effect of, "a traditional feature of the festival is the torchlight procession [in which x, x, and maybe x happens]. The ritual was designed by Diana Paxson and has been a popular event since its introduction in [year]." And in terms of performers, "Concerts feature Neopagan regulars such as [x, x, and x], and even more widely-known acts such as [x and x]. Internationally known artists such as Babatunde Olatunji and Big Brother and the Holding Company have even made appearances in recent years." ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 01:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide or direct us to a reliable source about the ritual Diana Paxson designed for the event? What about sources for other rituals that are an important part of Starwood and would help put a particular presenter into a meaningful, encyclopedic context? I seem to recall one of the links is about the person who kept the ashes for the fire, and how that role has been passed on now; that seems like an interesting fact to include (though I don't know if other editors would agree). I personally think that sort of information gives people a better sense of why the festival is meaningful to the people who attend than does simply stating that you feel the festival is important.
BTW, I did not delete any well-integrated, third-party-sourced, notable people from the text of this article. IIRC, I haven't deleted *anyone* from this article, though the laundry lists need to go for this to be Wiki-appropriate. I ask you to please bear in mind that a variety of people have worked on this article and made a variety of changes. Also, your conflict with other editors would not have gone on for months, nor reached arbitration, if you had respected the community consensus that, as executive director of ACE, you shouldn't be working on this article. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 22:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, incorporating names into a paragraph of text is more unweildy, and harder to reference for a reader. Examples of this can be seen at Edgefest and Gung Haggis Fat Choy. I think simple, non-repetitive lists of relevent material are perfectly acceptable, and these lists qualify. Rosencomet 22:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Your postings are hummongous. I would like to be on your side but i can't read through your enormous postings. Can you be nore succint and to the point? It would help us all. Also, if you provided diffs instead of just your opinion that would help also. Thanks! Alien666 04:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added some references to this page, and WinterStar & ACE as well. I don't think anyone will consider them contentious. I've just discovered Google Book Search - boy, will that make things easier for a lot of editors! Rosencomet 18:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Should the Starwood Festival, Association for Consciousness Exploration and WinterStar Symposium articles be merged into one? A.C.E. is the organization that runs the Starwood and WinterStar festivals.
Here, is this better? I was informed just today by a Wikipedia contributor that I had been doing the signature thing all wrong. I have indeed been participating in various wiki articles but up until now the sig was probably wrong. -- RevStang 04:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I did not add Kenny Klein (or Kenny & Tziporah) to the list, but as long as it's there it might as well be linked to his page and in alphabetical order. I also improved the existing links to Stephen Kent and Jim Donovan. It was not my intention to add names to this list, just clean up what was there. Rosencomet 21:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with Kathryn's deletion of the sentence "This is a family-friendly event, with both day-care and programming for children and teens."
Why does the mention under the heading "People" of the fact that the event is family-friendly and has youth programming seem like an advertisement to you? Is it the way it's worded, or do you think youth programming is not a notable feature to a Neo-Pagan event? I think it differentiates it from the raucous party that Starwood is sometimes mischaracterized as, and I think any event with a separate schedule of programming just for young people should have that as part of it's description. Do you feel the same way about this section of Pagan Spirit Gathering's article?
Children, tweens, and young elders
PSG has a extensive program specifically for visitors under 18 year of age, grouped into three categories. The children's day care facilities service those under 7 year old, a pavilion or two is provided (with some guided activities) for the Tweens (8-12) and the Young Elders (13-18) have a Teen Center with snacks and other ameneties. Workshops are listed with age limits or recommendations for participants. Most workshops are usually open to Young Elders, and many are open to Tweens and children. Minors can also have limited access to the fire spinning activities if they get permission from their guardian(s).
Or how about this from Pagan Pride Day?
All Pagan Pride Day events aim to be very family friendly. There are rules regarding what can and cannot occur at such events to this end. Many events provide a safe children's area where young Pagans can participate in various creative and entertaining activities. The children might learn to play rhythm toys with a volunteer musician. They might make wands or other ritual tools for their own use. Mask making is always a popular activity. There are usually spiritual aspects to the children's activities without being too serious or cumbersome for them to comprehend. Often older children help their elders keep tabs on the smaller children, thus learning responsibility via community service.
Why begrudge this article a single sentence on the subject? Have you ever read these events' desciptions, or that of Winter Magic? Or is this just about Starwood? Rosencomet 17:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
One of the features of this event is its child care and youth programming. There is a separate area for child care and kids' classes and entertainment, and a track of teen programming including classes, social activities, and "teen swim" time in the pool. Should a simple mention of the existence of such programming be considered appropriate in this article?
Rosencomet: Include
Septegram: Include
Wjhonson: Include, but delete "family friendly"; sounds too much like "family values".
Modemac: Include
TheOtherBob: Delete daycare as undue weight, unless 3rd party citation included.
Bishonen: Delete as trivial, advertisement-like and "utterly non-notable".
Paul_Pigman: Delete as ad-like (this is unclear).
FloNight: Delete as ad-like.
WeniWidiWiki: Delete "family friendly" as inherently vague and un-neutral. No clear comment on child care and youth programming.
Kathryn_NicDhàna: Delete "family friendly" as opinion without "reliable, verifiable, third-party source. No clear comment on child care and youth programming.
PER9000: Delete "family friendly" as bad/vague term. No clear comment on child care and youth programming.
Rosencomet 20:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
No additional comments have been posted for or against this proposal since February 26th. There were three proposals to merge the articles, and five not to merge. All three articles have been expanded since that date, and IMO show greater reason for the articles to stand separately on their own. In accordance with Wikipedia policy [28], there being no clear agreement after two weeks that the articles should be merged and no response after four weeks, I have deleted the Merge tags from all three articles. Rosencomet 20:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I have today tagged this section with a {{ cleanup-laundry}} tag. I feel this list is bloated and tending unencyclopaedic. Can somebody acquainted with the subject perhaps scale down the list to the most important speakers, or speakers with the "greatest contribution" to the festival? Ohconfucius 03:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is a copy of part of that discussion:
In my opinion, incorporating names into a paragraph of text is more unweildy, and harder to reference for a reader. Examples of this can be seen at Edgefest and Gung Haggis Fat Choy. I think simple, non-repetitive lists of relevent material are perfectly acceptable, and these lists qualify. Rosencomet 22:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC) Rosencomet 18:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps reading these might clarify the problem:
It might be helpful to read Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood/Proposed decision if there are people who are unclear about their role in editing this article. Regards, Mattisse 17:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
The event is a six-day camping event held mid to late July, as is written in the text. It is held Tuesday through Sunday either the third or the fourth week of July. This year that means July 22nd - 27th. You'll find that date on the ACE Home Page here [29].Is there any other time-line question needed to satisfy this tag? Rosencomet ( talk) 23:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm :P Avruch talk 01:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This article does not contain a single specific item with a request for citation. Can the citation tag be removed? It has been there for about three months. Rosencomet ( talk) 20:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that the References section has become a rather weedy patch. There are items in there with only the most passing of reference to Starwood. See Wikipedia:Layout#References for more on what kinds of items should be included in the section. Ideally, I'd like to see the majority of the substantial items integrated into the text as footnotes. Unless it bears directly on the article and/or provides more info than can be fit into the article, this is reference padding. Such padding does no good for the article or the reader.
So I'm going through and throwing out the refs that are fluff in my opinion. For example, I deleted " Atwood, Jay (2002) "Sometimes it Rains" article in Witchvox [30]". The content about Starwood? A few very short paragraphs describing a personal experience in the rain at Starwood. This is hardly good source material. Evocative perhaps, but not remotely useful as an encyclopedic source. I just think the article would be better served by focusing a bit more. Pigman ☿ 01:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I second that. A few paragraphs about a personal experience is not really a good source of material.-- DavidD4scnrt ( talk) 04:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
To answer the question of the importance of the event, I've added the following paragraph, as well as the assertion that Starwood is both the largest festival in the American Magical Movement, and the broadest in scope, serving many other communities as well.
"The Starwood Festival has provided an important interface between different groups and their spokespeople, promoting their working together on projects of common interest, and discovering that their similarities and more important than their differences and their differences are a strength and resource to be celebrated. Many attendees and presenters have reported sunsequent involvement in the activities of other represented groups; for instance, Halim El-Dabh and Gilli Smyth with Timothy Leary in the early nineties. Harvey Wasserman has been interviewed and quoted in books and publicatons of the Neo-Pagan movement, an audience he was unaware of before speaking at Starwood. Halim's work with a Rock group (for the first time), Einstein's Secret Orchestra, began at Starwood, and Stephen Gaskin was able to promote aid for Katrina victims through Plenty International at the festival. Synergistic relationships occur regularly there, and the attendees get the opportunity to interact directly with many authors and artists at once in ways that they could not afford to or arrange for individually." Rosencomet 17:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Advertizing puff piece. And so is every article I have run across which links to it. I am cleaning links to the disambiguation page "Celtic ( You can help!), and keep running across links to this in "articles" which are flat-out advertisements. -- Sean Lotz 09:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I think it still reads like an advertisement and link farm. -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 03:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
From WP:V
Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as:
So we have one source: the Starwood website, which verifies the names of performers. There is no reason doubt that this this is an reasonably acurate list of names, and many of the names can be easilly verified throuhg a quick google search, for instance [1] independantly verifies that Gilly was at Starwood, [2] independantly verifies Lerry was there. We could waste a lot of time trying to source all this, but there is no need according to above policy.
Whether all these are notable enough for inclusion is a different question. -- Salix alba ( talk) 15:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The lead-in text is too long. It's four paragraphs and one of them is a long one. MoS (or somewhere) states the lead-in should be three or less paragraphs. If somebody (original editor?) could shorten and move material to other places, it would improve the article. We want to see at least the top of the table of contents. - 999 ( Talk) 16:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There are two footnotes on the article page that aren't really footnotes. The object of the footnote is to give the reader enough information to verify the information independent of the authors of the article. This has not been done. For exampe, the word "Krasner" doen't tell you anything. NLOleson 17:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC) User making this comment was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse
I've deleted, at least for now, everything for which a citation was requested that has not been provided. References have been added, and I think we're pretty much OK on this listing barring very nit-picky points. Now how do I eliminate the statements at the top of the page saying citations aren't there and so on?
Ad Astra, Rosencomet Rosencomet 15:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
What's up with this edit: 26 August 2006) It looks like Flinders (Flinders was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse) just made every other word a link. I'm getting tired and don't want to mess with it right now, but it looks pretty ... pointless. Is there any possible reason for making a link out of the word "night"? I'm asking because I'm sleepy and maybe I'm missing something obvious. -- Sean Lotz 13:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
From Krassner's article:* Krassner, Paul (2005). Life Among the Neopagans in The Nation, August 24, 2005 (web only).
The annual Starwood Festivals have been presented by the Cleveland-based Association for Consciousness Exploration, a group of about thirty friends . . .
How odd, odd, odd this ensemble of Association for Consciousness Exploration , Starwood Festival, and WinterStar Symposium is. ABSmyth 19:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC) User was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse
Odder than you can imagine. They began in the mid to late 70s as an undergrad organization called the Chameleon Club, made up of two groups: a bunch of students who hung around the Hillel House at Case Western Reserve University who were into the Psychedelic Experience and Futurism (and Firesign Theatre), and a group of Society for Creative Anachronism members who were into Neo-Paganism and fantasy literature. There were suprising common themes, which seemed to crystalize in the works of Robert Anton Wilson. They became the first group to bring Timothy Leary to Cleveland and some Neo-Pagan "names" as well (like Dr. Raymond Buckland and Jim & Selena Fox of Circle), and had a hit with their creation of the Starwood Festival, first held at the same site as the SCA Pennsic War.
They founded ACE in 1984 as an organization that sounded more "real" for renting facilities (like resorts for the WinterStar Symposium), and became lecture agents for Wilson and others, and the first "Parapsychologists" listed in the Cleveland Yellow pages. In between ghost-busting (just for fun) and running festivals and symposiums, they ran a "mind-spa" with a sensory isolation tank, bio-feedback equipment, and mind-machines for stress management and electronically-assisted meditation.
As time went on, they began producing their own line of lecture & music tapes (now CDs & DVDs) and a few books, created their own in-house music groups, and grew their events to the point that they could afford to bring in bigger-name talent. Their ranks have included many of their favorite authors and performers either on an active or honorary status, and they've become an important networking body between the different communities they overlap. Their events are known to feature more fun than anyone should be allowed to have; people grin until their jaw-muscles hurt, and continue buzzing with energy from weird magical ceremonies, vision-quest workshops, all-night drumming and partying, great music & multi-media events, and so on for weeks after going home.
Of course, I wouldn't post this praise as part of a Wiki article, and I'm far from neutral. But if you get a chance to go to one of their events, do so. Who can't use a few days of naked Pagan psychedelic drumming & dancing & carrying on, with a chance to enjoy a dozen or so top-notch workshops and concerts? Rosencomet 18:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the designer, Frank Barney (owner of Brushwood Folklore Center), the Roundhouse is based on a Celtic design, not a Native American design (although looking at it, I can understand why one would make that mistake; it looks kind of like the skeleton of a teepee).
Rather than having lots of debates on various pages about whether there should be links to starwood, it seems sensible to have the debate in one place, where we can build a consensus.
The appropriate policy/guidline are
For example ArcheDream singles out starwood as the one venue listed out of about 100 gigs. To me this seems to be undue weight. I've change the page to now link to the full tour dates. -- Salix alba ( talk) 09:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Use this: personal attack removed by Rosencomet ( talk · contribs) of his articles, by inserting www.rosencomet.com links as so-called "citations". It this moment there are at least 115 links from Wikipedia to his site. This is assuming he is not still inserting this link to a search engine: http://www. freefind . com/. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timmy12 ( talk • contribs)
I don't agree with this excuse to cut the copy of an aerticle and say it's more "encyclopedic" that way. I ve read plenty of articles in encyclopedias, and own a Britanica, a World Book, and an Outline of Knowledge encyclopedia, and they don't shy away from complete descriptions or evocative language. None of the content that sme have wanted to cut was non-factual.
The treatment of Wiki articles is very uneven. I don't see these conditions put on the Burning Man listing, and I've seen many others that include purpose of the event, principles, objectives, and variouis activities that take place without being accused of including "non-notable" information, being "chatty" or "too much like an ad".
An encyclopedia is not a dictionary. There is no reason to excise language that adds to the reader's understanding of the nature of the subject, or differentiates it from other subjects based on it's unique characteristics. There is no reason for an article to be terse, incomplete, or boring. Encyclopedias are not written that way.
And I'd like to see less chopping up by people who don't contribute articles of their own. I've created many, and contributed to many more. Rosencomet 19:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The terms New Age, Magical, and Spiritual overlap, but none of them completely include the other. Starwood features components of each category that are not included in the other; to simply call it a New Age event would not be an accurate description, nor just a Pagan festival. Rosencomet 19:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Rosencomet, four experienced admins, one of them an arbitrator, have now removed the worst of the promotional language and triviality from the article, and you have added it back every time. You've violated the WP:3RR, and I see several people have warned you about that on your page, so please be aware that in the future you're not going to get away with something like that ever again. Quite apart from the 3RR, please consider the possibility that these people are more familiar with policy than you are. Having all that redundancy and promospeak in there doesn't make the article more "complete", it merely makes it more bad. Wikipedia is not for advertising. If you insist on keeping the article in such a miserable state, I see no other option than to propose it for deletion instead. Btw, your wild guess that these are people who "don't contribute articles of their own" is amusing to anybody familiar with their output. Better not go any further down that road, you'll only embarrass yourself. Bishonen | talk 19:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC).
Please READ the most recent version of the article I wrote. Let's see what I have added in the last time:
I included the topic magical and spiritual, and still state that the phrase "New Age topics" does NOT cover them adequately. Many New Age folks do not accept that magical practice is part of what they do, and there are many spiritual practices that are NOT New Age ones. I also added the topic "mind/body sciences". I included the founding date of the event. I cut the repeat of the phrase "these communities" and just made it "them". I trimmed the third paragraph MORE than the one you keep reverting to. I added an additional type of dance that is featured at the event, then cut a paragraph out.
I created a "Features of the event" section, and cut some of the same other paragraphs that the version you revert to cut. I changed "that can be seen from space" to "visible from space". I added "Sufiism" to the list of spiritual paths featured under the People section.
Otherwise, I have accepted a lot of the cuts that have been made. Gone is the mention of seasonal campers, wood-busters, the line about the intent of the event, the mention of the event being a yearly vacation for some, the "celebrating their diversity" line, and more. In fact, I think I have eliminated most of what has been objected to, while making the description of the event and its components more complete.
I urge you to actually READ the newer copy, and to compare it to such sites as the Burning Man site, and explain why reverting to that one rather than using this one is an improvement. In my opinion, the addition of a History section, a Principles section, a Community section, a Timeline section, and all sorts of other information would be encyclopedic and in keeping with the rest of Wikipedia, along with graphs and photos. I see no reason to harass me over the present content.
However, I apologize for violating the 4-revert rule. It was an accident, and I did self-revert as soon as it was pointed out to me. I'm not sure I did it right, but I certainly did not revert it again until Timmy12 stepped in, and he has a history of staking my articles and reverting them. Rosencomet 21:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Please explain to me why the section you excised is "ad like". First, though, take a look at the Burning Man article. (not that I have anything against them)
An ad would say "a spectacular life-changing experience" or "great value at a great price" or "the finest in the world", or some other ad copy. The "Features of the event" section is just that: a list of some of the things you would find there if you, like the author of the encyclopedia article, had been there. It doesn't say why a sweat lodge is wonderful or what its benefits are, it doesn't say "you'll thrill to the pulsing rhythms" or "cool off in the placid waters of the pool" or "your mind will expand, your spirit will soar, and your soul will be nurtured". It just lists some of the structures, the existence of some resources, and adds to a complete "encyclopedic" description of the event.
Look at the Grand Canyon article, for instance. It doesn't just give the length and depth. It presents a history, offers pictures, discusses who comes to it and what they do there; hiking, climbing, endurance runners. Who has been there, why it's unique.
Look at the Woodstock article. The Glastonbury Festival. Renaissance Fair. Does this simple list really constitute making the article into an ad? Does it really not make the description more complete? Rosencomet 22:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have posed a question to Salix Alba, but have not heard a reply. I have not put that section back at this time, since I am hoping for a real discussion of the issue rather than just rocks thrown from a distance, as you seem to favor. First you argue that it's "not encyclopedic", then that it's "too ad-like", and now that it's "trivial".
I think you are missing the point. I disagree with your assessment of my argument. I was NOT saying other articles are just as bad. I was quite clearly saying that a list of the features of an event IS part of an encyclopedic article about that event. As both an event organizer and attendee, I do not agree that they are trivial, nor that it is "promocopy". Many events in the Neo-Pagan movement, for instance, have none of these features. Starwood is unique in both the production values of their stage offerings, how generally well known and cross-genre' their entertainers and speakers are (especially outside the usual audience of such events), and the degree of family-oriented programming and support and safety arrangements. Frankly, I would not only consider this list acceptable (though I'd be happy to delete the times, as Apostle12 suggested), but would see nothing wrong with a "History" section, a "Principles" section, a "Demographics" section, and other items (photos, for instance)that would make the article about this ground-breaking 26-year-old major event in its community more complete.
(You also seem to have quite an attitude; this sounds like threats, scolding and insult, and I don't see where you get the right, especially if you are just a volunteer like me. I have not had any problem with administrators; they seem to agree with my arguments generally.) Rosencomet 17:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. "As both an event organizer and attendee, I do not agree that they are trivial, nor that it is "promocopy"." And you really don't see that a neutral outsider, who has no dog in the fight, is better placed than an organizer and attendee to evaluate these things? Whatever. How about this, then: after you'd told me and Salix Alba several times that it was unfair to remove Starwood Festival's how-to sections and let Burning Man keep theirs —which is actually no way to argue on a volunteer website, as I said— I took my red pencil to Burning Man and did an encyclopedic cleanup on it. I removed a lot of text. See how nobody reverted me? This was the only talkpage reaction I got. I get the impression they were pleased to see the article improved. Food for thought? Bishonen | talk 18:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC).
Of COURSE I don't think that someone who is not an event organizer and attendee is better placed (whatever that means) to decide what is or isn't trivial about an article about an event, any more than a musician isn't suited to make such judgements about a musical article, or a mathematician about a math article, or a teacher about an education issue... I think you get the idea. And I get ABSOLUTELY NO SATISFACTION in the knowledge that I may have caused you to make cuts in the description of another event. I feel sorry if I have in any way made that article a target for your "red pencil". Nor is it logical to assume that if you removed something from another article and did not get an objection that this means your actions on this one had merit. (And stop talking for Salix Alba.)
Again, my argument was that the claim that the inclusion of this simple list of features of the event neither was "not encyclopedic" nor "ad-like", but that they made the description of the subject of the article more complete. Rosencomet 19:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether it is appropriate to add internal links (intra-Wikipedia links) to this article to dozens of articles on people and groups who have appeared at this festival. It is also about whether it is appropriate to add external links to the website of the group which organizes the festival to those same dozens of articles. 04:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if it's appropriate for me to comment in the "comments" section as I am an editor involved in the current dispute but this is more about the AfC than the dispute itself. I hope this AfC will bring in different editors' voices and eyes. I believe both sides can benefit from such input. The dispute now has a certain static and predictable quality in the interactions. I don't expect resolution here but I would like to hear what other editors think, particularly about the basic issue outlined at the top of this AfC. -- Pigman ( talk • contribs) 19:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Please see /mediation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CheNuevara ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
I have tagged a few places which need clarification. Please elaborate on which "several other communities" are referred to in the lead. Also please clarify what "consciousness-altering devices", "movement systems" and "mind /body sciences" are - these are all very ambiguous terms and mean a lot of different things. I think if these are better explained, they won't need to be sourced - it is just very confusing the way it is currently worded. - WeniWidiWiki 07:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Just off the top of my head...
Re: Drumming & Dance classes: workshops by Babatunde Olatunji (African Drumming), Daveed Korup (Middle eastern), Raquy Danzinger (Middle Eastern), Louis Martinie' (both Voodoo drumming & Celtic Bodhran), Amampondo (African Drum & Dance), Yaya Diallo (African Drumming), Baka Beyond (Afro-Celtic), Sikiru Adepoju (African Talking Drum), Muruga Booker (African Drumming, Trance Drumming), Badal Roy (Tabla), Larry Myers (Israeli Dancing), Don Waterhawk (Native American Dance), Laurence Galian (Sufi Dancing), Louis Nunez (Santeria Drumming), Max Pollack of Cyro Baptista & Beat the Donkey (Rhumba Tap), Lia Fail (Celtic Music), Brahm Stuart of Shaman (Celtic Bodhran), Halim El-Dabh (African Drumming, Dance & Chant), Neil Chastain (Clave), Jim Barleycorn (Feadog), Billy Bardo (Bodhran), Kelly McGowan (Bodhran), Airto Moreira (Afro-Brazilian Rhythms), Zimra (Belly Dancing), a whole lot more belly dancing & African & Middle Eastern drumming and other kinds ... Is that enough? There's more.
Re: The Roundhouse. Frank Barney, the owner of Brushwood Folklore Center (where Starwood has been held for over 15 years) and the designer of the Roundhouse told me, and has said on numerous occasions speaking to the public, that the Roundhouse is based on a structure of Celtic design he researched in a book while studying standing stone & labyrinth designs for future Brushwood projects (a labyrinth stands there now; he has discussed the standing stone project with Rob Roy, an expert on such matters, and the people at 4 Quarters Farm who have ther own). Frank is a member of ADF, by the way. I don't know how to document this, but I'm pretty sure I saw a discussion of this by him on a Yahoo group or some other chat group. I did verify this with him before changing the info on the Brushwood Folklore Center article (which has since been taken down), which incorrectly called it a Native American design. (I think Sirius Rising, their main event, deserves an article by the way.) Rosencomet 17:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the clean-up tags on the "Featured speakers" and "Featured entertainers" sections of the Starwood Festival article are inappropriate. There are three reasons listed for putting such a tag on a list:
1. "poorly defined" - I think the lists are accurately defined as lists of "some of the past featured speakers/entertainers"
2. "unverified" - every name on this list can be verified by citation from the website of the event organizers IF IT IS REQUIRED, and these citations have been agreed to be appropriate for the purpose of asserting that these people did, in fact, appear at the event, though their NEED has not been established. The website is listed at the bottom of the article.
3. "indiscriminate" - out of MANY more speakers and entertainers, these lists have been reduced to only those notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles (with the exception of two directors of the event's host organization). They are, I contend, as notable for an event as a bibliography or discography is for an author or recording artists, yet EVERY name has NOT been included. These lists show the diversity, notability and scope of the guest line-ups, and show an assortment of both celebrity and up-and-coming individuals: authors, organization founders, ground-breakers in their fields and arts, etc.
If there is some reason to tag a specific name, it can be discussed, but I think tagging the entire list for something as vague as "clean-up", and thereby alluding to standards that don't really exist, is excessive. If you think a particular name doesn't belong there, it should be discussed on a case-by-case basis, starting with YOUR reason that a particular notable speaker/entertainer should NOT be on the list. Rosencomet 18:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Eh, that's not why I tagged them for cleanup. I feel that they need to be broken into sub-cats or something, because currently all they are is a huge unreadable list of names. Please look over at Lollapalooza or Burning Man for ideas - because at this time it is just an unwieldy list of names which goes against WP:NOT. Don't read into my intentions - I was not doing it to be malicious. - WeniWidiWiki 00:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
First of all, Happy New Year to you all.
I have just left this note on User:CheNuevara's talk page:
I have just seen an action taken by User: RasputinJSvengali during this arbitration (and, as far as I know, an ongoing mediation) which not only rewrites the text of the article and deletes the entire "Featured Speakers" and "Featured Entertainers" sections, but adds "Satanists" and "the Illuminates_of_Thanateros" to the list of people attending. I am afraid that this has been done to bait me into a revert war during the arbitration. As an objective party who has offered to help with my efforts to rectify the problems caused by the disagreements between myself and other editors, I would like to ask you to reverse this action and request that User: RasputinJSvengali refrain from such actions. For several weeks I have only reduced the number of links and added 3rd party citations, all of which were requested by editors during the mediation, and have engaged in civil discussion on issues related to the article on the discussion page without actually doing the editing (except for one grammatical edit). Thank you. Rosencomet 17:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
In the wake of RasputinJSvengali's action and BostonMa's subsequent revertion of parts of it, I made some minor but now necessary (IMO) grammatical corrections and link fixes. I also replaced the ambiguous mention of "Neo-Druidic Groups" with the specific mention of ADF and Asatru. I hope no one minds that; presenters from those traditions can be cited with references to the ACE website if one wishes: Adf members Isaac Bonewits, Brian Perrin, Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison, Ian Corrigan, Liafal, and Bill Elston to name a few; Asatru members Diane L. Paxson, Laurel Mendes, Anne Sheffield, and Victorria Johnson among others. I question the introduction of "Chaos Magickians", but I guess it can stay. Lyrus Landholder, Nema, Taylor Ellwood, and a few others might qualify; but I don't feel confident enough to have added it myself. Rosencomet 19:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you think "something needs to be done". However, I quite specifically did not object to it in principle, I just discussed how one could or should do that. I disagree with the notion that there is a problem that must be solved here: the Lollapalooza article you referenced has extensive lists of entertainers and the days they played and which stages they played on. I just don't understand why you object to these simple alphabetical lists. I think it encourages people to read another article in Wikipedia about a notable individual, and helps support the notability of the event. What's the ADVANTAGE to Wikipedia of reducing that? How is that not "lessening the article"? What exactly is "unproductive" about these lists?
And as to the Burning Man article, would you really support sections on the history of the event, the demographics, the relative heights of the Starwood bonfire, other events that have been inspired by Starwood, the lay-out of the grounds, the effects on the environment, terminology, etc etc? Then why have you and those with you on this objected to lists of the features of the events as too ad-like when much more detailed descriptions exist on those, and other, articles about events? Besides, as far as I can tell, Burning Man is a completely different type of event (except that both have a big burning thing on the last night), which doesn't book and feature acts and workshops and therefor no one has listed them. It's a voluntary art festival, not a spiritual and educational event with entertainment. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I know of NO Temple of Set member who has been a speaker at Starwood as a representative of that organization or as a Satanist, and the only talk about Satanism that has happened at Starwood was about how to help the public not confuse Paganism and Wiccan with Satanism. Laurence Galian spoke only about Sufiism and other non-Satanic subjects; this strikes me as an attempt to blackwash an event that YOU KNOW VERY WELL has nothing to do with Satanism. If you examine every speaker bio, you'll find people listing the fact that they are nurses, farmers, metallugists, architects, military personnel and electrical engineers. Must we list those groups as attendees, too, if they are not there in that capacity? Is every interest of every attendee or speaker a notable fact?
And to list as attendees at Starwood anyone who shares an interest with someone who wrote a book that sells in the ACE bookstore is pretty ridiculous. It is a bookstore, and contains books by plenty of people that the organization does not endorse the content of. Heck, there have been copies of the Malleus Mallificarum, the Koran, Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, and books on conservative politics. They are there because people who buy from the bookstore do research on such subjects. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully since these posts are old, the satanism issue has been settled. As an attendee and an editor, and an archivist, there is no historical basis for using the word satanist anywhere on the Starwood website. By sticking to the literal and exact titles of organisations and orders that have presented no group labeling itself as satanic has spoken or presented at a Starwood event. I hope that this issue is settled. A list of speakers and performers however does give the reader a sense of the type of festival event this is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maegdlyn ( talk • contribs) 18:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm unfamiliar with the term Neo-Sufi except as used by Hakim Bey (who really should appear at Starwood IMO). The main Sufi speakers that have appeared ar Starwood (that I can recall offhand) are Laurence Galian and Paul Garbanzo (AKA Paul Hudert, AKA Misha Karamazov, a member of the Flying Karamazov Brothers). Their bios don't use that term. There is no "Neo-Sufi" article on Wikipedia. That's about all I can say on the matter for now. Rosencomet 18:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Once again, an attempt is made to circumnavigate an ongoing arbitration by those on one side of the issue, to get what they want by any possible means.
I object to the placement of these tags. The person placing them said above that they are unreadable, and that I should "look at such articles as Lollapalooza for ideas". Well, that article has lists of 300-400 acts, every act that has been there, listed by year and which stage they performed on, dating back to the first year, with plenty of repetition of names, and many acts that are not notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article.
The lists here do not represent everyone who has appeared by any means. Except for two directors of the event, every speaker and entertainer listed is notable enough to have their own article. All can be verified on the ACE website, a link for which is in the reference section. Most have 3rd-party citations on their own articles to further support notability of their appearance, but I have not cluttered this article up with all these links.
I contend that these lists of past speakers and entertainers lends notability to the event itself in a very real way. They illustrate the fact that this is not just a party, or a retreat with a few workshops, but a major event with a cirriculum comparable to a week of a university summer-session. There is NO resource like it in the community it serves; it has featured more authors and leaders of the traditions they are involved in than any festival of its kind in America, and more major entertainment (most of whom are also instructors), and for more years (and for no per-class additional charge). The variety of presentors and their popularity gives the reader a better idea of what the event is, while offering an easy link to look up each one's article for further research. I don't think chopping away at them would improve the article one bit, and I see no clear criteria by which to do so.
I think the tags requesting clean-up are inappropriate, and they should be taken down. I am loathe to do so myself, since there is an ongoing arbitration on the article, one which I think should have been honored before these tags were placed. These lists have already been cleaned up, as the person placing the tags well knows, and a lot of work went into doing so. Rosencomet 00:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
So out of one side of your mouth, you are stating that the reason that edits to the Starwood articles have stopped is because everything is resolved and there are no further contentions. Yet here, you are accusing me of circumventing the Arbitration by merely switching out two templates? Are you suggesting that no editors should touch any of the hundreds of related articles while the arbitration is under way? - WeniWidiWiki 19:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Mattisse has requested assistance. She has mentioned this article in her request. I am starting to look into the issue. Any information people could give me would be very welcome. Cheers. SilkTork 20:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, Kenny & Tziporah Klein is not a notable enough act for this list. If this act gets a non-contested Wikipedia article, I may change my mind. Sam Andrew is part of Big Brother & the Holding Company, and probably does not need a separate listing (unlike, say, Stephen Kent, who appeared a different year as a solo artist & speaker). James Gurley was not with Big Brother when they appeared at Starwood, and has never been there so far. Rosencomet 17:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
My opinion on the lists: Laundry lists are listcruft and not encyclopedic. I think they need to be reduced to those individuals who have played an important part in the festival, and then those names integrated into the text in a way that demonstrates their relevance and notability. For instance, it seems to have been deleted now, but I recall reading somewhere that Diana Paxson designed a torchlit procession ritual that is (or was) a regular part of Starwood. So something to the effect of, "a traditional feature of the festival is the torchlight procession [in which x, x, and maybe x happens]. The ritual was designed by Diana Paxson and has been a popular event since its introduction in [year]." And in terms of performers, "Concerts feature Neopagan regulars such as [x, x, and x], and even more widely-known acts such as [x and x]. Internationally known artists such as Babatunde Olatunji and Big Brother and the Holding Company have even made appearances in recent years." ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 01:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide or direct us to a reliable source about the ritual Diana Paxson designed for the event? What about sources for other rituals that are an important part of Starwood and would help put a particular presenter into a meaningful, encyclopedic context? I seem to recall one of the links is about the person who kept the ashes for the fire, and how that role has been passed on now; that seems like an interesting fact to include (though I don't know if other editors would agree). I personally think that sort of information gives people a better sense of why the festival is meaningful to the people who attend than does simply stating that you feel the festival is important.
BTW, I did not delete any well-integrated, third-party-sourced, notable people from the text of this article. IIRC, I haven't deleted *anyone* from this article, though the laundry lists need to go for this to be Wiki-appropriate. I ask you to please bear in mind that a variety of people have worked on this article and made a variety of changes. Also, your conflict with other editors would not have gone on for months, nor reached arbitration, if you had respected the community consensus that, as executive director of ACE, you shouldn't be working on this article. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 22:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, incorporating names into a paragraph of text is more unweildy, and harder to reference for a reader. Examples of this can be seen at Edgefest and Gung Haggis Fat Choy. I think simple, non-repetitive lists of relevent material are perfectly acceptable, and these lists qualify. Rosencomet 22:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Your postings are hummongous. I would like to be on your side but i can't read through your enormous postings. Can you be nore succint and to the point? It would help us all. Also, if you provided diffs instead of just your opinion that would help also. Thanks! Alien666 04:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added some references to this page, and WinterStar & ACE as well. I don't think anyone will consider them contentious. I've just discovered Google Book Search - boy, will that make things easier for a lot of editors! Rosencomet 18:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Should the Starwood Festival, Association for Consciousness Exploration and WinterStar Symposium articles be merged into one? A.C.E. is the organization that runs the Starwood and WinterStar festivals.
Here, is this better? I was informed just today by a Wikipedia contributor that I had been doing the signature thing all wrong. I have indeed been participating in various wiki articles but up until now the sig was probably wrong. -- RevStang 04:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I did not add Kenny Klein (or Kenny & Tziporah) to the list, but as long as it's there it might as well be linked to his page and in alphabetical order. I also improved the existing links to Stephen Kent and Jim Donovan. It was not my intention to add names to this list, just clean up what was there. Rosencomet 21:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with Kathryn's deletion of the sentence "This is a family-friendly event, with both day-care and programming for children and teens."
Why does the mention under the heading "People" of the fact that the event is family-friendly and has youth programming seem like an advertisement to you? Is it the way it's worded, or do you think youth programming is not a notable feature to a Neo-Pagan event? I think it differentiates it from the raucous party that Starwood is sometimes mischaracterized as, and I think any event with a separate schedule of programming just for young people should have that as part of it's description. Do you feel the same way about this section of Pagan Spirit Gathering's article?
Children, tweens, and young elders
PSG has a extensive program specifically for visitors under 18 year of age, grouped into three categories. The children's day care facilities service those under 7 year old, a pavilion or two is provided (with some guided activities) for the Tweens (8-12) and the Young Elders (13-18) have a Teen Center with snacks and other ameneties. Workshops are listed with age limits or recommendations for participants. Most workshops are usually open to Young Elders, and many are open to Tweens and children. Minors can also have limited access to the fire spinning activities if they get permission from their guardian(s).
Or how about this from Pagan Pride Day?
All Pagan Pride Day events aim to be very family friendly. There are rules regarding what can and cannot occur at such events to this end. Many events provide a safe children's area where young Pagans can participate in various creative and entertaining activities. The children might learn to play rhythm toys with a volunteer musician. They might make wands or other ritual tools for their own use. Mask making is always a popular activity. There are usually spiritual aspects to the children's activities without being too serious or cumbersome for them to comprehend. Often older children help their elders keep tabs on the smaller children, thus learning responsibility via community service.
Why begrudge this article a single sentence on the subject? Have you ever read these events' desciptions, or that of Winter Magic? Or is this just about Starwood? Rosencomet 17:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
One of the features of this event is its child care and youth programming. There is a separate area for child care and kids' classes and entertainment, and a track of teen programming including classes, social activities, and "teen swim" time in the pool. Should a simple mention of the existence of such programming be considered appropriate in this article?
Rosencomet: Include
Septegram: Include
Wjhonson: Include, but delete "family friendly"; sounds too much like "family values".
Modemac: Include
TheOtherBob: Delete daycare as undue weight, unless 3rd party citation included.
Bishonen: Delete as trivial, advertisement-like and "utterly non-notable".
Paul_Pigman: Delete as ad-like (this is unclear).
FloNight: Delete as ad-like.
WeniWidiWiki: Delete "family friendly" as inherently vague and un-neutral. No clear comment on child care and youth programming.
Kathryn_NicDhàna: Delete "family friendly" as opinion without "reliable, verifiable, third-party source. No clear comment on child care and youth programming.
PER9000: Delete "family friendly" as bad/vague term. No clear comment on child care and youth programming.
Rosencomet 20:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
No additional comments have been posted for or against this proposal since February 26th. There were three proposals to merge the articles, and five not to merge. All three articles have been expanded since that date, and IMO show greater reason for the articles to stand separately on their own. In accordance with Wikipedia policy [28], there being no clear agreement after two weeks that the articles should be merged and no response after four weeks, I have deleted the Merge tags from all three articles. Rosencomet 20:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I have today tagged this section with a {{ cleanup-laundry}} tag. I feel this list is bloated and tending unencyclopaedic. Can somebody acquainted with the subject perhaps scale down the list to the most important speakers, or speakers with the "greatest contribution" to the festival? Ohconfucius 03:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is a copy of part of that discussion:
In my opinion, incorporating names into a paragraph of text is more unweildy, and harder to reference for a reader. Examples of this can be seen at Edgefest and Gung Haggis Fat Choy. I think simple, non-repetitive lists of relevent material are perfectly acceptable, and these lists qualify. Rosencomet 22:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC) Rosencomet 18:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps reading these might clarify the problem:
It might be helpful to read Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood/Proposed decision if there are people who are unclear about their role in editing this article. Regards, Mattisse 17:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
The event is a six-day camping event held mid to late July, as is written in the text. It is held Tuesday through Sunday either the third or the fourth week of July. This year that means July 22nd - 27th. You'll find that date on the ACE Home Page here [29].Is there any other time-line question needed to satisfy this tag? Rosencomet ( talk) 23:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm :P Avruch talk 01:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This article does not contain a single specific item with a request for citation. Can the citation tag be removed? It has been there for about three months. Rosencomet ( talk) 20:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that the References section has become a rather weedy patch. There are items in there with only the most passing of reference to Starwood. See Wikipedia:Layout#References for more on what kinds of items should be included in the section. Ideally, I'd like to see the majority of the substantial items integrated into the text as footnotes. Unless it bears directly on the article and/or provides more info than can be fit into the article, this is reference padding. Such padding does no good for the article or the reader.
So I'm going through and throwing out the refs that are fluff in my opinion. For example, I deleted " Atwood, Jay (2002) "Sometimes it Rains" article in Witchvox [30]". The content about Starwood? A few very short paragraphs describing a personal experience in the rain at Starwood. This is hardly good source material. Evocative perhaps, but not remotely useful as an encyclopedic source. I just think the article would be better served by focusing a bit more. Pigman ☿ 01:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I second that. A few paragraphs about a personal experience is not really a good source of material.-- DavidD4scnrt ( talk) 04:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)