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The devanagari script for "hindi" is incorrect. It's too hard for me to describe the error using only the English alphabet. See the BBC languages page ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/languages/) for an example of one way to write it correctly (there's at least one other way to write it).
My mistake. It was a problem with my system not rendering the devanagari script correctly. I fixed the problem and now can see that it is written correctly (two variations). Sorry for the trouble, you responded so quickly (before I could delete my comment!). Thanks.
Does anyone what the people who speak Hindi are known as? I can't find a single source saying they're an ethnic group so I'm guessing they're not. So what are they? The same applies to the Urdu-speakers (unless they're the Muhajir people?) -- Maurice45 ( talk) 19:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a rather ignorant question: Do educated people in non-Hindi official states come out of school fluent in Hindi (speaking, reading, writing) as well as their mother tongue? I suppose I'd exclude the South Indian states from this consideration, since their opposition to Hindi dominance seems well known. I guess I am curious about states like Gujarat, WB, Assam, Punjab - do educated people already know Hindi, or do they choose to pick it up along the way? My interest was piqued because it seems there are a good number of Bollywood actors who hail from non-Hindi speaking states. Thanks! 173.215.26.37 ( talk) 21:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
In the Hindi and Urdu section of this article, there is a sentence that says "Urdu was earlier called Zabān-e-Urdū-e-Mu`allah (زبانِ اردوِ معلہ, ज़बान-ए उर्दू), lit., the "Exalted Language of the Camp"." There's a problem here in that the Devanagari says ज़बान-ए उर्दू which is "zabān-e urdū", not "zabān-e urdū-e mu'allah" like it should.
YoshiroShin ( talk) 23:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The very basic definition for Urdu and Hindi should suffuce here as it was was done when a consensus was reached during the conclusion to of the controversy: Urdu is that language which contains Turkish, Farsi and Arabic loan words with sprinkling of Pashtu words here and there, and Hindi is that which contains Sanskritic loan words, even though both are based on the various dialects spoken around Dehli, Agra and their environs. Furthermore, both these languages are written in different scripts i.e. Hindi in Devanagri and Urdu in modified Farsi. The mutual intelligibility is totally due to the two factors - inter-communality and Indian cinema effect. Bombay film industry always recognised the fact that heavilly Sanskitised dialogues in their films would not bring many filmgoers so they resorted to using Hindustani, a less difficult and more colloqual form of Urdu. This is evidenced from the many Urdu writers, actors and lyricists who contributed to the industry. In fact Bombay films and songs were promoted as Hindustani in language. I still have old 75rpm/45rpm records of Indian film songs clearly labelled as Hindustani. Now let's get off the various bandwagons and agree with the conclusions the various language movements came to and not keep on defining and re-defining the two languages. I cannot understand the Mahabharat and not can many native Hindi speakers but I can comprehend Bollywood films and frequently have to translate many 'difficult' Urdu words to my Hindu/Sikh friends (from India)for them but this does not happen the otherway. Interestingly enough proper Hindi words for many everday usage such as air, congratulations, thank you etc. are rarely used. Instead hawa, Diwali mubarak, Shukriya, are the most commonlly enunciated. Even the most basic terms for common things e.g. zara, cheez etc. are derived from Urdu even though quite often they are mispronounced. There are countless examples - nouns, proper nouns, verbs, adverbs and off course adjectives are all there as evedence of the above arument.
So whatever the origins there is no doubt that Urdu gave the Indian native language it's name as well as its's vocabulary in this day and age. Urdu has remained true to it's origin i.e. a Persianised,Turkised and Arabised version of Kharri Boli, whereas Hindi, originally a Sanskritised Kharri Boli has become, in vernacular usage at least, Urduised i.e. Urdu that is spoken and written in Devanagri. This is attested to by the many rightwing Hindu scholars and organisation who would like to rename Hindi as Bharati and go back to the demand and agreement of the days of Urdu-Hindi controversy and 'purify' India and Indian language. ( USER talk:Moarrikh) 19:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed a number of translation requests from this page as Wikipedia is not a forum, but the user continues to insert them. The purpose of talk pages is to discuss improvements of the article to which the talk page belong. Talk pages are not the place for asking questions about the language or request translations. If someone want to have Hindi translations, contact one of the many Hindi-speaking users here, ask the question in one of the hundreds of translation forums on the Internet or some other option. For Hindi versions of Wikipedia pages, the relevant place to put such a request is the talk page of that page, not this page. Please refrain from posting such requests on the talk page of Hindi. Jeppiz ( talk) 04:31, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Please read what I posted at Talk:Hindi–Urdu controversy#The true origins of Hindi and Urdu. __ meco ( talk) 20:03, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
We have Hindi languages for Hindi in the broad sense, and Standard Hindi for Hindi in the narrow sense, so this article was mostly a WP:fork of one or the other. I've revised it to concentrate on the different conceptions of the word, with links to the more specific articles. Of course, we could also merge Standard Hindi here and merge this to Hindi languages. Whichever way we go, I think we should come to some consensus as to what the scope of the various articles should be, to avoid forking, arguments over naming, and duplicated effort. — kwami ( talk) 18:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
The very first map showing the extent of Hindi speakers is incorrect. At least Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh cannot be excluded because the majority there speak Hindi, and Hindi is an official language in both states. The map needs to be modified. Apalaria ( talk) 11:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
They are not! I am talking of the first map on the page. Apalaria ( talk) 15:44, 22 October 2010 (UTC) Since an incorrect map cannot be reported on the wikipage, I am removing that image. Plus the rank of Hindi in terms of speakers needs to be mentioned in the first paragraph. See the page on Bengali for example. Apalaria ( talk) 15:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
No! Please do not replace the image without proper discussion here. I just compared the map. I would ask you to recheck. Hindi is THE PRIMARY official language of the Indian Union according to the Indian Constitution. The only other official language is English, which is specifically mentioned as the "secondary" official language of the Union in the constitution. Also, there is a difference between the "Indian Union" and the "union government". The correct term to use there is "Indian Union" as per the Indian Constitution, and not "the union government". What varies from place to place in Hindi is the spelling or the pronunciation of the words, not the essence of the language. This is similar to the difference between British English and American English. I am from India and I know this very well. The rank of Hindi in terms of speakers needs to be mentioned in the first paragraph. See the pages on English, Spanish or Bengali for example. The numbers from different sources are inconsistent for all languages, not just Hindi. The proper method is to mention the number or rank citing the source. I have done just that. Not mentioning such an important fact given it is done for other languages can be considered a conspicuous bias. I have made these changes. Please do not revert them without proper discussion here. Apalaria ( talk) 16:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
That is fine, but incorrect information on wikipedia cannot be tolerated. The facts I have mentioned are easy to verify. Go ahead and do that. Apalaria ( talk) 16:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Actually, if I knew how to mark that, I wouldn't be arguing with you unnecessarily. Apalaria ( talk) 16:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is the map to check : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India-states-numbered.svg The states are Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh. Apalaria ( talk) 16:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
As regards your argument about stability, wrong information that is stable just because nobody notices it is not acceptable. Apalaria ( talk) 16:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Your suggestion is ridiculous! I am from the mountainous regions in one of those states! Hindi is the primary language there. If not satisfied, go and check the individual pages on the states. That map you continue to include here just cannot be allowed because that map is a mockery of wikipedia as a completely unreliable source!! Apalaria ( talk) 17:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Hindi and Urdu are not the same language. They are two different languages, but together they are called Hindustani. If you still do not understand, think of it like German and English, both are Germanic languages, but not the same. Hindi and Urdu are both Hindustani languages, but not the same. The data on the Encarta is clearly for Hindi and not Hindi-Urdu. (If it were for Hindi-Urdu, it would include Pakistan in the list of countries.) So I would suggest that the figure reported in Encarta should be included in the lede on this page (Hindi) and should be removed from the page on Hindi-Urdu, because it is misplaced there. Apalaria ( talk) 17:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
You are telling me I don't understand what Hindi is?!? Hindi is my mother tongue and the language I primarily speak from my birth. I am sorry but I find this statement highly offensive. You really need to address the issues I have raised, otherwise I might have to look for other means to get this article brought upto wikipedia standards. Apalaria ( talk) 18:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Also, address the issue with the sentence that says "Hindi is spoken by Hindus". That is absolutely incorrect. Hindi is spoken by all religions in India, including Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Parsis. Some Muslims and some Hindus also speak Urdu, but that is usually in addition to Hindi. Apalaria ( talk) 17:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
As I said, provide the proper citation for this association if you want to state it, otherwise remove it. I consider this as a politically motivated and devised statement. Apalaria ( talk) 18:23, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
By and large, those dialects you mentioned are Hindi. However, what you do not realize is that those "dialects" (for that would be the proper term for them) are spoken in addition to Hindi. I can give you my example. Pahari is a language (which differs relatively largely from Hindi compared to the other dialects) spoken a lot in the hills. However, that does not take away from Hindi. It continues to be my primary language of social communication and likewise for all people in the hills. That is why I say (and is officially supported) that all of Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh should be included in the Hindi speaking region. Check out the official language in those states. You will see Hindi but you will not see Pahari for Uttarakhand. Then? And if those states are not included, then why are Rajasthan, Haryana, Punjab? Even in these states a dialect (if you will) of Hindi assumes prominence. You will have to delve a bit into Indian culture (anthropology maybe?) to understand this. The bottom line is that map you (or whoever) have included is incorrect whichever way you argue. Apalaria ( talk) 17:21, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Please define native speakers for me and tell me who determines it if not the person himself/ herself. I have been speaking Hindi as my first language ever since I was born and so does every other person in my state of origin (which is one of the two states in question here). How can you not call me a native speaker? Apalaria ( talk) 18:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN!! Hindi and Urdu are not the same languages, they are not the same dialect either. They are DIFFERENT LANGUAGES. There is no association of Hindi with Hindus anywhere. If you want to state that association, please provide a proper citation. Just because you feel there is an association, it cannot be stated on wikipedia. By the way, an Indian name for "India" is Hindustan (used even when India had Muslim rulers) meaning the "land of Hindus". Going by your argument of Hindi and Hindus, you would soon be telling me that only Hindus live in India. I restate- India is culturally complex society, probably the only one of its kind in the world. Please do not apply simplified analysis for India. Apalaria ( talk) 17:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Let me summarize this. And this should address your concern above (about Urdu-influenced Hindi). Spoken Hindi is not a very standardized language. There is a standardized version of Hindi from the government, but that remains by and large the literary version. Almost none of the spoken Hindi is standardized form. There are modifications in spellings, pronunciations and even vocabulary depending on which part of the country you are in. However, all that region shown in pink on the map, plus Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand all speak Hindi (with slight influence from the local dialect). The regional language (e.g. Pahari in Uttarakhand) often gets the secondary treatment. This is true in almost all of North and Central India. It is for this reason the same population gets counted for both Hindi and the regional language. Hence I would consider the figures that include all people who speak Hindi, even when speaking another regional language, true figures for Hindi. And if you were to count only the true standardized Hindi, the speaking population would be close to zero. I think this should make everything crystal clear. At the end, we just have to make a choice, but we have to be careful to not alienate populations that primarily speak Hindi (e.g., Uttarakhand and Himachal) Apalaria ( talk) 17:41, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Regarding Urdu, it is a different language from Hindi. There is no controversy. The page you mention, "Hindi-Urdu controversy", has nothing to do with the languages; it is about their origin. And your arguments continue to be weak. Germans can understand English often. Does that make German and English the same? Hindi speaking person like myself cannot understand all of Urdu. An Urdu speaking person cannot understand all of Hindi. There is a big intersection of vocabulary, but hten by that argument one should start calling English the same as Latin. When the scripts of two langages differ completely (as they do for Hindi and Urdu), how can they be considered the same?!? Apalaria ( talk) 17:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
You really need to address the serious issues I have raised here, otherwise I might have to look for other means to get this article brought upto wikipedia standards. Apalaria ( talk) 18:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Kwami, I deeply regret the fact that I, myself cannot actively contribute (due to some personal career constraints). I will try to oversee however, as and when the occasion arises. Maquahuitl talk! 05:16, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Hindi has nothing to do with Hindus or Muslims. All religions speak Hindi in India. Urdu, spoken in Pakistan and by some people in India, and Hindi, although very similar, are two different languages, differing mostly in their script but also in their vocabulary. So the first paragraph has to be modified to reflect this correction. Apalaria ( talk) 16:56, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
We'd need some pretty good sources before stating that Urdu is being replaced by MSH in India, esp. given the 54M (not 5M) who claim Urdu as their tongue. If the claim is challenged, we need to be able to unambiguously defend it.
I don't see any "flurry" of minor Urdu variant articles. The only one I can find is Hyderabadi Urdu, which I've tagged for merger to Dakhini.
I'm not aware of "Hindi" being used for Urdu by the Muslim rulers of India, unless maybe you mean Hindvi and Hindustani? Please clarify. (Ah wait, I see: Hindi, Hindui, Hindawi etc. were all used.)
Hindi-Urdu is the name of the abstand language article. It was previously titled Hindustani, but I moved it because I thought that term was dated. If you don't like either of those, which name would you suggest for it? (You seem to be using "MSH" in that sense, but of course that is just as much an ausbausprache as MS Urdu.)
(ELL2 uses "Hindustani", so maybe we could move back to that.)
Likewise, "macrolanguage" isn't a normal linguistic term. It's an in-house coinage by SIL for ISO coding, and as such not appropriate for an encyclopedia title. Dachsprache is too obscure, and isn't really English. I agree that "Hindi languages" is ambiguous, but unless you can suggest a better name, I think we'll simply need to cover both concepts at that article. AFAIK, East + West Hindi is no more a valid clade than the Hindi dachsprache, so I'm not clear on what would be gained by the distinction.
(Hmm, maybe "Hindi dialects"?) — kwami ( talk) 06:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
My two pennys:
I don't know how many of the people here at this talk page are native of India and have really hered locals speking all these languages/dialects. I'm from
Barabanki city which is located at heart of
Awadh region of
Uttar Pradesh state of
India. Since birth I have grown speking three things (are thse same language , dialects of same language or different language altogetehr), Urdu at home and local community (even few of my Hindu & Sikh friend can read write Urdu), Hindi at school and urban community, Awadhi with country men and at village. I can speak all three of them fluently(and mind it they are three different things even grammar for all three is little different). Guess what, Ramcharitmananas written in Awadhi (supposedely a Hindi dialect) is unitelligible to maximum of Hindi speakers. And when I speak Awadhi maximum of people from other places find it hard to track the conversation and they are quite fluent in Hindi (& you know why because Hindi is their mother tongue but it seems everybody's Hindi is different). Infact when I talk in MSH (standard version of GOI) with all Sanskri words many native Hindi speakers find it sort of alien thing and same is the case with MSU with all those Persian words.
Perso-Arabic and Sanskrit words are even used in Dravidian languages atleast in Telugu & Kannada (just like English words).
Actually Modern Hindi is 135 years old which was invented by Lallu Lal and Dr. Gilchrist. Infact almost all Modern Indo-Iranian languages of Indic (Indo-Aryan) branch are considered as dialect of Hindi with few exceptions like, languages from extreme West (e.g. Gujarati), extreme North (e.g. Nepali), extreme East (e.g. Bengali), extreme South (e.g. Marathi). Lambadi · Gujari · Nimadi · Mewati · Marwari ( Dialects: Godwari · Dhatki) · Mewari · Dhundhari · Harauti · Bagri · Malvi · Braj Bhasha · Hariyanvi · Bundeli · Kannauji · Awadhi (includes Fijian Hindi) · Bagheli · Chattisgarhi · Bhojpuri (includes Caribbean Hindustani) · Garhwali · Kumaoni · Nepali (Palpa) · Potwari etc. are still counted under umbrella of Hindi although most of them have literature older than so called Modern Hindi. It has tried to eat all local dialects from east to west but thankfully that has not happened and locales still remember their languages.
Maithali till recent(until 2003, when it was was included in the Eighth Schedule of the Indian Constitution) times was treated as dialect of Hindi but now it is a diffrent language. Although there is no Urdu cinema but Bhojpuri exists. If all these are same language then how can you explain such phenamenon.
One more thing that Urdu = Muslims is incorrect both historically and contemporary. Poets/writers like Atish, Mir Hasan, Nazir, Ghalib, Isma'i1, Hali, Igbal, and others) are Muslims, but the contribution by Daya Shankar Nasim, Shafiq Aurangabadi, Chakbast, Suriu, Mabrnm, Firaq, Anand Narain Mulla, and others who are Hindus is equally creditable and cannot be ignored in any history of Urdu poetry. Here are links which show that there are still many Non-Muslim Urdu poets and writers:
Urdu is not being taken over by Hindi(or MSH) in India, there have been few events in last two decades which indicate that on contrary Urdu is coming back (after its exclusion by state in initial four decades of independent India),
Urdu is both ausbau & dachsprache, I come back to my initial point i.e.I don't know how many of the people here at this talk page are native of India and have really hered locals speking all these languages/dialects I have spent couple of years in South in cities if Bangalore & Hyderabad. You hear the language being reffred to as Urdu (which is actually Dakhini) is quite different from Urdu that we speak in North. In fact Urdu of Bangalore, Hyderabad, Hubli, etc is different and not 100% mutually intelligible(forget Urdu dpeakers from North understanding them), They use different words for things e.g. for cloud any North Indian Urdu speaker will use badal but a person from South India will use Abr, in case of hadkerchief it is rumal for NI but it is dasti for SI, banana is kela' for NI but mauz for SI, etc.
The word Hindu, its name given by Arabs to the community living beyond river Sindhu (particulary NIs), you know iin Arab world al NIs are call ed Hindi/Hindu(irrespective of their religion) while people from SI are called Malabari. Guess what here on this page the Muslims & Hindus from NI who are fighting over Hindi/Hindu are both Hindi/Hindu for the people who coined the term Hindi/Hindu ;).
I think somewhere we need to mention timeline that when was this language called what.
--
Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider
t
c
s
13:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I see this page was redirected to Hindi page on objections of some Urdu speakers. The Hindi page is neither like Standard Hindi or Modern Standard Hindi. We should use this page only about Standard Hindi. PradeepBoston ( talk) 14:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Standard Hindi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I like to point out that the matras used to write /i/ is not correct. It is entirely different to the hand written script. When its possible to write in correct way, I insist you to kindly rectify the error. You can visit some Indian Insitutional site for example the Hindi website of NCL Pune. You will find the correct way of writing the /i/ matra. |
Last edited at 08:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 06:53, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
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The devanagari script for "hindi" is incorrect. It's too hard for me to describe the error using only the English alphabet. See the BBC languages page ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/languages/) for an example of one way to write it correctly (there's at least one other way to write it).
My mistake. It was a problem with my system not rendering the devanagari script correctly. I fixed the problem and now can see that it is written correctly (two variations). Sorry for the trouble, you responded so quickly (before I could delete my comment!). Thanks.
Does anyone what the people who speak Hindi are known as? I can't find a single source saying they're an ethnic group so I'm guessing they're not. So what are they? The same applies to the Urdu-speakers (unless they're the Muhajir people?) -- Maurice45 ( talk) 19:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a rather ignorant question: Do educated people in non-Hindi official states come out of school fluent in Hindi (speaking, reading, writing) as well as their mother tongue? I suppose I'd exclude the South Indian states from this consideration, since their opposition to Hindi dominance seems well known. I guess I am curious about states like Gujarat, WB, Assam, Punjab - do educated people already know Hindi, or do they choose to pick it up along the way? My interest was piqued because it seems there are a good number of Bollywood actors who hail from non-Hindi speaking states. Thanks! 173.215.26.37 ( talk) 21:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
In the Hindi and Urdu section of this article, there is a sentence that says "Urdu was earlier called Zabān-e-Urdū-e-Mu`allah (زبانِ اردوِ معلہ, ज़बान-ए उर्दू), lit., the "Exalted Language of the Camp"." There's a problem here in that the Devanagari says ज़बान-ए उर्दू which is "zabān-e urdū", not "zabān-e urdū-e mu'allah" like it should.
YoshiroShin ( talk) 23:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The very basic definition for Urdu and Hindi should suffuce here as it was was done when a consensus was reached during the conclusion to of the controversy: Urdu is that language which contains Turkish, Farsi and Arabic loan words with sprinkling of Pashtu words here and there, and Hindi is that which contains Sanskritic loan words, even though both are based on the various dialects spoken around Dehli, Agra and their environs. Furthermore, both these languages are written in different scripts i.e. Hindi in Devanagri and Urdu in modified Farsi. The mutual intelligibility is totally due to the two factors - inter-communality and Indian cinema effect. Bombay film industry always recognised the fact that heavilly Sanskitised dialogues in their films would not bring many filmgoers so they resorted to using Hindustani, a less difficult and more colloqual form of Urdu. This is evidenced from the many Urdu writers, actors and lyricists who contributed to the industry. In fact Bombay films and songs were promoted as Hindustani in language. I still have old 75rpm/45rpm records of Indian film songs clearly labelled as Hindustani. Now let's get off the various bandwagons and agree with the conclusions the various language movements came to and not keep on defining and re-defining the two languages. I cannot understand the Mahabharat and not can many native Hindi speakers but I can comprehend Bollywood films and frequently have to translate many 'difficult' Urdu words to my Hindu/Sikh friends (from India)for them but this does not happen the otherway. Interestingly enough proper Hindi words for many everday usage such as air, congratulations, thank you etc. are rarely used. Instead hawa, Diwali mubarak, Shukriya, are the most commonlly enunciated. Even the most basic terms for common things e.g. zara, cheez etc. are derived from Urdu even though quite often they are mispronounced. There are countless examples - nouns, proper nouns, verbs, adverbs and off course adjectives are all there as evedence of the above arument.
So whatever the origins there is no doubt that Urdu gave the Indian native language it's name as well as its's vocabulary in this day and age. Urdu has remained true to it's origin i.e. a Persianised,Turkised and Arabised version of Kharri Boli, whereas Hindi, originally a Sanskritised Kharri Boli has become, in vernacular usage at least, Urduised i.e. Urdu that is spoken and written in Devanagri. This is attested to by the many rightwing Hindu scholars and organisation who would like to rename Hindi as Bharati and go back to the demand and agreement of the days of Urdu-Hindi controversy and 'purify' India and Indian language. ( USER talk:Moarrikh) 19:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed a number of translation requests from this page as Wikipedia is not a forum, but the user continues to insert them. The purpose of talk pages is to discuss improvements of the article to which the talk page belong. Talk pages are not the place for asking questions about the language or request translations. If someone want to have Hindi translations, contact one of the many Hindi-speaking users here, ask the question in one of the hundreds of translation forums on the Internet or some other option. For Hindi versions of Wikipedia pages, the relevant place to put such a request is the talk page of that page, not this page. Please refrain from posting such requests on the talk page of Hindi. Jeppiz ( talk) 04:31, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Please read what I posted at Talk:Hindi–Urdu controversy#The true origins of Hindi and Urdu. __ meco ( talk) 20:03, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
We have Hindi languages for Hindi in the broad sense, and Standard Hindi for Hindi in the narrow sense, so this article was mostly a WP:fork of one or the other. I've revised it to concentrate on the different conceptions of the word, with links to the more specific articles. Of course, we could also merge Standard Hindi here and merge this to Hindi languages. Whichever way we go, I think we should come to some consensus as to what the scope of the various articles should be, to avoid forking, arguments over naming, and duplicated effort. — kwami ( talk) 18:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
The very first map showing the extent of Hindi speakers is incorrect. At least Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh cannot be excluded because the majority there speak Hindi, and Hindi is an official language in both states. The map needs to be modified. Apalaria ( talk) 11:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
They are not! I am talking of the first map on the page. Apalaria ( talk) 15:44, 22 October 2010 (UTC) Since an incorrect map cannot be reported on the wikipage, I am removing that image. Plus the rank of Hindi in terms of speakers needs to be mentioned in the first paragraph. See the page on Bengali for example. Apalaria ( talk) 15:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
No! Please do not replace the image without proper discussion here. I just compared the map. I would ask you to recheck. Hindi is THE PRIMARY official language of the Indian Union according to the Indian Constitution. The only other official language is English, which is specifically mentioned as the "secondary" official language of the Union in the constitution. Also, there is a difference between the "Indian Union" and the "union government". The correct term to use there is "Indian Union" as per the Indian Constitution, and not "the union government". What varies from place to place in Hindi is the spelling or the pronunciation of the words, not the essence of the language. This is similar to the difference between British English and American English. I am from India and I know this very well. The rank of Hindi in terms of speakers needs to be mentioned in the first paragraph. See the pages on English, Spanish or Bengali for example. The numbers from different sources are inconsistent for all languages, not just Hindi. The proper method is to mention the number or rank citing the source. I have done just that. Not mentioning such an important fact given it is done for other languages can be considered a conspicuous bias. I have made these changes. Please do not revert them without proper discussion here. Apalaria ( talk) 16:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
That is fine, but incorrect information on wikipedia cannot be tolerated. The facts I have mentioned are easy to verify. Go ahead and do that. Apalaria ( talk) 16:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Actually, if I knew how to mark that, I wouldn't be arguing with you unnecessarily. Apalaria ( talk) 16:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is the map to check : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India-states-numbered.svg The states are Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh. Apalaria ( talk) 16:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
As regards your argument about stability, wrong information that is stable just because nobody notices it is not acceptable. Apalaria ( talk) 16:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Your suggestion is ridiculous! I am from the mountainous regions in one of those states! Hindi is the primary language there. If not satisfied, go and check the individual pages on the states. That map you continue to include here just cannot be allowed because that map is a mockery of wikipedia as a completely unreliable source!! Apalaria ( talk) 17:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Hindi and Urdu are not the same language. They are two different languages, but together they are called Hindustani. If you still do not understand, think of it like German and English, both are Germanic languages, but not the same. Hindi and Urdu are both Hindustani languages, but not the same. The data on the Encarta is clearly for Hindi and not Hindi-Urdu. (If it were for Hindi-Urdu, it would include Pakistan in the list of countries.) So I would suggest that the figure reported in Encarta should be included in the lede on this page (Hindi) and should be removed from the page on Hindi-Urdu, because it is misplaced there. Apalaria ( talk) 17:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
You are telling me I don't understand what Hindi is?!? Hindi is my mother tongue and the language I primarily speak from my birth. I am sorry but I find this statement highly offensive. You really need to address the issues I have raised, otherwise I might have to look for other means to get this article brought upto wikipedia standards. Apalaria ( talk) 18:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Also, address the issue with the sentence that says "Hindi is spoken by Hindus". That is absolutely incorrect. Hindi is spoken by all religions in India, including Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Parsis. Some Muslims and some Hindus also speak Urdu, but that is usually in addition to Hindi. Apalaria ( talk) 17:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
As I said, provide the proper citation for this association if you want to state it, otherwise remove it. I consider this as a politically motivated and devised statement. Apalaria ( talk) 18:23, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
By and large, those dialects you mentioned are Hindi. However, what you do not realize is that those "dialects" (for that would be the proper term for them) are spoken in addition to Hindi. I can give you my example. Pahari is a language (which differs relatively largely from Hindi compared to the other dialects) spoken a lot in the hills. However, that does not take away from Hindi. It continues to be my primary language of social communication and likewise for all people in the hills. That is why I say (and is officially supported) that all of Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh should be included in the Hindi speaking region. Check out the official language in those states. You will see Hindi but you will not see Pahari for Uttarakhand. Then? And if those states are not included, then why are Rajasthan, Haryana, Punjab? Even in these states a dialect (if you will) of Hindi assumes prominence. You will have to delve a bit into Indian culture (anthropology maybe?) to understand this. The bottom line is that map you (or whoever) have included is incorrect whichever way you argue. Apalaria ( talk) 17:21, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Please define native speakers for me and tell me who determines it if not the person himself/ herself. I have been speaking Hindi as my first language ever since I was born and so does every other person in my state of origin (which is one of the two states in question here). How can you not call me a native speaker? Apalaria ( talk) 18:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN!! Hindi and Urdu are not the same languages, they are not the same dialect either. They are DIFFERENT LANGUAGES. There is no association of Hindi with Hindus anywhere. If you want to state that association, please provide a proper citation. Just because you feel there is an association, it cannot be stated on wikipedia. By the way, an Indian name for "India" is Hindustan (used even when India had Muslim rulers) meaning the "land of Hindus". Going by your argument of Hindi and Hindus, you would soon be telling me that only Hindus live in India. I restate- India is culturally complex society, probably the only one of its kind in the world. Please do not apply simplified analysis for India. Apalaria ( talk) 17:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Let me summarize this. And this should address your concern above (about Urdu-influenced Hindi). Spoken Hindi is not a very standardized language. There is a standardized version of Hindi from the government, but that remains by and large the literary version. Almost none of the spoken Hindi is standardized form. There are modifications in spellings, pronunciations and even vocabulary depending on which part of the country you are in. However, all that region shown in pink on the map, plus Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand all speak Hindi (with slight influence from the local dialect). The regional language (e.g. Pahari in Uttarakhand) often gets the secondary treatment. This is true in almost all of North and Central India. It is for this reason the same population gets counted for both Hindi and the regional language. Hence I would consider the figures that include all people who speak Hindi, even when speaking another regional language, true figures for Hindi. And if you were to count only the true standardized Hindi, the speaking population would be close to zero. I think this should make everything crystal clear. At the end, we just have to make a choice, but we have to be careful to not alienate populations that primarily speak Hindi (e.g., Uttarakhand and Himachal) Apalaria ( talk) 17:41, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Regarding Urdu, it is a different language from Hindi. There is no controversy. The page you mention, "Hindi-Urdu controversy", has nothing to do with the languages; it is about their origin. And your arguments continue to be weak. Germans can understand English often. Does that make German and English the same? Hindi speaking person like myself cannot understand all of Urdu. An Urdu speaking person cannot understand all of Hindi. There is a big intersection of vocabulary, but hten by that argument one should start calling English the same as Latin. When the scripts of two langages differ completely (as they do for Hindi and Urdu), how can they be considered the same?!? Apalaria ( talk) 17:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
You really need to address the serious issues I have raised here, otherwise I might have to look for other means to get this article brought upto wikipedia standards. Apalaria ( talk) 18:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Kwami, I deeply regret the fact that I, myself cannot actively contribute (due to some personal career constraints). I will try to oversee however, as and when the occasion arises. Maquahuitl talk! 05:16, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Hindi has nothing to do with Hindus or Muslims. All religions speak Hindi in India. Urdu, spoken in Pakistan and by some people in India, and Hindi, although very similar, are two different languages, differing mostly in their script but also in their vocabulary. So the first paragraph has to be modified to reflect this correction. Apalaria ( talk) 16:56, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
We'd need some pretty good sources before stating that Urdu is being replaced by MSH in India, esp. given the 54M (not 5M) who claim Urdu as their tongue. If the claim is challenged, we need to be able to unambiguously defend it.
I don't see any "flurry" of minor Urdu variant articles. The only one I can find is Hyderabadi Urdu, which I've tagged for merger to Dakhini.
I'm not aware of "Hindi" being used for Urdu by the Muslim rulers of India, unless maybe you mean Hindvi and Hindustani? Please clarify. (Ah wait, I see: Hindi, Hindui, Hindawi etc. were all used.)
Hindi-Urdu is the name of the abstand language article. It was previously titled Hindustani, but I moved it because I thought that term was dated. If you don't like either of those, which name would you suggest for it? (You seem to be using "MSH" in that sense, but of course that is just as much an ausbausprache as MS Urdu.)
(ELL2 uses "Hindustani", so maybe we could move back to that.)
Likewise, "macrolanguage" isn't a normal linguistic term. It's an in-house coinage by SIL for ISO coding, and as such not appropriate for an encyclopedia title. Dachsprache is too obscure, and isn't really English. I agree that "Hindi languages" is ambiguous, but unless you can suggest a better name, I think we'll simply need to cover both concepts at that article. AFAIK, East + West Hindi is no more a valid clade than the Hindi dachsprache, so I'm not clear on what would be gained by the distinction.
(Hmm, maybe "Hindi dialects"?) — kwami ( talk) 06:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
My two pennys:
I don't know how many of the people here at this talk page are native of India and have really hered locals speking all these languages/dialects. I'm from
Barabanki city which is located at heart of
Awadh region of
Uttar Pradesh state of
India. Since birth I have grown speking three things (are thse same language , dialects of same language or different language altogetehr), Urdu at home and local community (even few of my Hindu & Sikh friend can read write Urdu), Hindi at school and urban community, Awadhi with country men and at village. I can speak all three of them fluently(and mind it they are three different things even grammar for all three is little different). Guess what, Ramcharitmananas written in Awadhi (supposedely a Hindi dialect) is unitelligible to maximum of Hindi speakers. And when I speak Awadhi maximum of people from other places find it hard to track the conversation and they are quite fluent in Hindi (& you know why because Hindi is their mother tongue but it seems everybody's Hindi is different). Infact when I talk in MSH (standard version of GOI) with all Sanskri words many native Hindi speakers find it sort of alien thing and same is the case with MSU with all those Persian words.
Perso-Arabic and Sanskrit words are even used in Dravidian languages atleast in Telugu & Kannada (just like English words).
Actually Modern Hindi is 135 years old which was invented by Lallu Lal and Dr. Gilchrist. Infact almost all Modern Indo-Iranian languages of Indic (Indo-Aryan) branch are considered as dialect of Hindi with few exceptions like, languages from extreme West (e.g. Gujarati), extreme North (e.g. Nepali), extreme East (e.g. Bengali), extreme South (e.g. Marathi). Lambadi · Gujari · Nimadi · Mewati · Marwari ( Dialects: Godwari · Dhatki) · Mewari · Dhundhari · Harauti · Bagri · Malvi · Braj Bhasha · Hariyanvi · Bundeli · Kannauji · Awadhi (includes Fijian Hindi) · Bagheli · Chattisgarhi · Bhojpuri (includes Caribbean Hindustani) · Garhwali · Kumaoni · Nepali (Palpa) · Potwari etc. are still counted under umbrella of Hindi although most of them have literature older than so called Modern Hindi. It has tried to eat all local dialects from east to west but thankfully that has not happened and locales still remember their languages.
Maithali till recent(until 2003, when it was was included in the Eighth Schedule of the Indian Constitution) times was treated as dialect of Hindi but now it is a diffrent language. Although there is no Urdu cinema but Bhojpuri exists. If all these are same language then how can you explain such phenamenon.
One more thing that Urdu = Muslims is incorrect both historically and contemporary. Poets/writers like Atish, Mir Hasan, Nazir, Ghalib, Isma'i1, Hali, Igbal, and others) are Muslims, but the contribution by Daya Shankar Nasim, Shafiq Aurangabadi, Chakbast, Suriu, Mabrnm, Firaq, Anand Narain Mulla, and others who are Hindus is equally creditable and cannot be ignored in any history of Urdu poetry. Here are links which show that there are still many Non-Muslim Urdu poets and writers:
Urdu is not being taken over by Hindi(or MSH) in India, there have been few events in last two decades which indicate that on contrary Urdu is coming back (after its exclusion by state in initial four decades of independent India),
Urdu is both ausbau & dachsprache, I come back to my initial point i.e.I don't know how many of the people here at this talk page are native of India and have really hered locals speking all these languages/dialects I have spent couple of years in South in cities if Bangalore & Hyderabad. You hear the language being reffred to as Urdu (which is actually Dakhini) is quite different from Urdu that we speak in North. In fact Urdu of Bangalore, Hyderabad, Hubli, etc is different and not 100% mutually intelligible(forget Urdu dpeakers from North understanding them), They use different words for things e.g. for cloud any North Indian Urdu speaker will use badal but a person from South India will use Abr, in case of hadkerchief it is rumal for NI but it is dasti for SI, banana is kela' for NI but mauz for SI, etc.
The word Hindu, its name given by Arabs to the community living beyond river Sindhu (particulary NIs), you know iin Arab world al NIs are call ed Hindi/Hindu(irrespective of their religion) while people from SI are called Malabari. Guess what here on this page the Muslims & Hindus from NI who are fighting over Hindi/Hindu are both Hindi/Hindu for the people who coined the term Hindi/Hindu ;).
I think somewhere we need to mention timeline that when was this language called what.
--
Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider
t
c
s
13:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I see this page was redirected to Hindi page on objections of some Urdu speakers. The Hindi page is neither like Standard Hindi or Modern Standard Hindi. We should use this page only about Standard Hindi. PradeepBoston ( talk) 14:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Standard Hindi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I like to point out that the matras used to write /i/ is not correct. It is entirely different to the hand written script. When its possible to write in correct way, I insist you to kindly rectify the error. You can visit some Indian Insitutional site for example the Hindi website of NCL Pune. You will find the correct way of writing the /i/ matra. |
Last edited at 08:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 06:53, 30 April 2016 (UTC)