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Thank you for your interest in the article on the Sritattvanidhi. Can you add any book references for the material you have added? We are trying to upgrade the quality of references on many of the Hinduism articles, which are often without citations now. Also, the picture you added has no associated documentation on file explaining where it is from or what the connection is. Can you help with that? I would also love to find an ISBN or book supplier for reproduction of the work that may still be available. It is a classic that needs wider attention. Buddhipriya 18:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
In order to keep conversations in one place on Wikipedia, I will transfer a copy of your remarks here. Thank you so much for replying! If you could upload pictures of all 32 forms showing the text it would be a great contribution. These pictures often appear in degraded forms in devotee publications, often with incorrect identification as to which form is which. If you read the script, could you upload the pictures and also doocument exactly which form appears in each picture, as you did with Mahaganapati? Having the original pictures on file with a systematic documentation of the names of the forms as given in the text would be invaluable to researchers, whc generally cannot obtain access to the source text directly. We could then work together to get the 32 forms integrated into the article. Please reply to this here, on your talk page, to keep the discussion in one place. I will add this page to my watchlist. Also, please sign your comments by typing four tildes ~~~~ which will add your name and a link to here in all your submissions. It saves time for the readers.
Repost of reply: You can get the book from: Director prasaranga University of Mysore Manasagangothri Mysore-570006
you can also get the books from online sources like
https://www.dkagencies.com/doc/Home.html and serch for mummadi.
I also feel the title srittavanidi for your post on ganapati is not right.
If you need any more info ot if you feel i should post all the 32 paintings along with the original kannada texts, kindly let me know. raja
Buddhipriya
17:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
i have since corected a bit of your post:
1. Maharaja died on 28 march 1868. 2. The first page, the author states thus: May the work sri tattvanidi, which is illustrated and contains secrets of mantras and which is authored by king sri krishna raja, be written without any abstacle. Salutation to Lord ganapati and goddess chamundambika...
Hence we cannot today doubt the authorship and say it was done at his command !
Rajachandra 17:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
i have added two pictures today. i will upload a new pic of mahaganapati later. i will also transliterate the kannada texts as i progress.
Rajachandra 19:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
It is common to have conflicts about dates in some of these sources. When multiple versions of dates can be found, it is best to cite both, with proper references. The date in the article is properly sourced to Martin-Dubost. If you can provide a precise page and book reference for "Maharaja died on 28 march 1868" then I will add that alternative dating in. The 1868 date is probably right, but it is unreferenced, and thus fails the test of WP:RS.
Buddhipriya 19:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
i can quote any number of sources. you could also see http://www.4dw.net/royalark/India/mysore4.htm.
Ref: 1.Annals of the Mysore Royal family Part 1 & 2 (kannada)- a publication of rhe Royal family of Mysore.(1916) 2.Mummadi Krsihnarajendra wodeyaru (kannada) by O.N.Lingannayya (1940) - More specific- 11PM night on 27 march 1968. 3. Mummadi Krishna raja wodeyaru (kannada)by Dr.R.Gopal & Dr.S. Narendra Prasad- a publication of Directorate of Archeology and Museums, Hospet, Karanataka.(2004)- Puts it as 28 March 1868.
Hope this is sufficient Rajachandra 17:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no conflict here. Martin Dubost cannot be relied. Annals is virtually a family compendium of wodeyars. Rajachandra 18:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
As with the date of death, varying statements of direct authorship can all be stated, giving specific references that meet the test of WP:RS. Is it correct that this quote is from vol. 1 of the republished editon, or from some other edition? All that is needed is to clarify the edition and then I will add this view to that given by Martin-Dubost, which specifically states that he funded a project to do it as opposed to writing it all himself. The English word "authored" may broadly mean "arranged to be written" and it is not surprising that in the introduction full credit would be given to him regardless of whether he had help. Here is the quote we are working on:
2. The first page, the author states thus: May the work sri tattvanidi, which is illustrated and contains secrets of mantras and which is authored by king sri krishna raja, be written without any abstacle. Salutation to Lord ganapati and goddess chamundambika...
Hence we cannot today doubt the authorship and say it was done at his command !
Buddhipriya 19:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the pictures back to the right side because as I work with the text I need to use indentation to set off the quotes. When the pictures are on the left side the visual arrangement of the indented text is thrown off. It is important that the text be easy to read, so I recommend that we leave the pictures on the right side. Buddhipriya 17:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
It is wonderful that you are able to provide your own transcription of the text with your translation. Please continue doing so. However in Wikipedia we must follow WP:RS and give references to anything we put here. There have been some different translations of these verses printed in books about Ganesha, and as we go I will give what Wikipedia would consider to be a reliable source for each verse. These quotations will probably be different from what you are giving. Please watch for how they differ and let's see if we can identify any ways in which your translation spots errors. Please do not change any of the text as given by other translators. In Wikipedia it does not matter if what the quote says is right, it just needs to be an accurate statement of what that reliable souce said. If there are conflicts between reliable sources these can both be quoted. Providing your own translation may be challenged as WP:OR so we need to figure out how to include the information in a way that uses reliable sources.
See WP:RS#Language for policy on use of the original text. It is good to include the actual source language as you are doing. Buddhipriya 17:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
sorry i was busy. If you feel i need not add translations as i see them, i will add only the kannada text
Rajachandra 19:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I can see that the present article has been carefully worked on to use the older ASCII transliteration methods in an attempt to preserve a correct romanization of the Indic script, which was a good intention. The standard romanization method used for articles in the Hinduism project is IAST rather than the ASCII methods used to some extent in the article. I feel that it would be good for the article to standardize the use of IAST for that reason. An exception is that for words which have common English equivalents such as Ganapati, Shiva, or Vishnu, the common simple English romanization is preferred since this is an English-language Wiki. When IAST is used as the romanization it should be enclosed within Template:IAST which helps ensure correct rendering on web browsers and helps bots identify pages that contain Indic text. The IAST tag in use looks like this: {{IAST|Mahāganapati}} While Indic scripts such as Devanagari do not contain the idea of capitalization, the IAST specifications include capital letters as an accomodation for English readers. Hence proper names are generally capitalized as that is the custom in English.
For a summary of the IAST issues as I see them, please check User:Buddhipriya/IASTUsage and feel free to add any points there that you think pertain to this issue. That essay is a collection of threads and links related to romanization of Indic scripts. Buddhipriya 19:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Rajachandra 18:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Guide to layout specifies the use of Notes and References sections and I would like to adjust the article so that the standard methods are used for footnotes. In the standard system, footnotes go in "Notes" and works cited in footnotes go in "References", which becomes a "list of works cited". This makes it easier to comply with WP:CITE. I don't this will be controversial so I will go ahead and make the setup that way, adjusting existing content to the standard format. Buddhipriya 19:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
In setting up the standard reference sections I was unclear if there are two books or one book cited in this note. Can you please check reference data and compare with the standardized templates for books that I have tried to extract from it? My guesses may be wrong, so please verify. Here is the original citation:
Annals of the Mysore Royal Family , Part II, Government Branch Press, Mysore, 1922, page:176; mummaDi kRuShNarAja oDeyaru - oMdu cAriTrika adhyana ( Mummadi Krsihnaraja Wodeyar- a Historic Study) by Dr. R.Gopal & Dr. S.Narendra Prasad, published by Directorate of Archeology and Museums, Hospet- Karnataka-India in 2004 @page=104 ^ mummaDi kRuShNarAja oDeyaru - oMdu cAriTrika adhyana by Dr. R.Gopal & Dr. S.Narendra Prasad,@page=92-94
Here are the two (?) books which may be referred to, using book templates:
- Annals of the Mysore Royal Family , Part II. Mysore: Government Branch Press. 1922.
{{ cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|coauthors=
( help)- Gopal, R. (2004). mummaDi kRuShNarAja oDeyaru - oMdu cAriTrika adhyana ( Mummadi Krsihnaraja Wodeyar- a Historic Study). Karnataka: Directorate of Archeology and Museums.
{{ cite book}}
: Unknown parameter|coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) ( help)
Is there an author for the first item?
For this one, is there an author?
Sri Mummadi Krsihnaraja Wodeyar's 'Sritattvanidhi', Volume-1;shakti nidhi @ pages xviii-xxiv: by Oriental research Institute, University of Mysore, 1997
I have tried to standardize this to the template as follows:
Wodeyar, Mummadi Krsihnaraja (1997). Sritattvanidhi. Oriental Research Institute, University of Mysore.
{{ cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|coauthors=
( help)
Buddhipriya 19:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Annals 1 & 11 were edited by Mr. B.Ramakrishna Row - Palace Controller, as per orders of the then Maharaja Krishna Raja Wadiyar IV based on various sources available in the Palace.
As for as ORI books they also give credit to KRW III : Sri Mummadi Krsihna Raja Wodeyar's Srittatvanidhi - Vol I: Shakti nidhi... Chief Editors name is mentioned in each volume . For Vol I, credit has been taken by the then VC himself ( Prof. M.Madaiah) and Editor was Dr.H.P. Devaki, Director, ORI; Vol II - Chief Editor Dr. K.V. Ramesh, Hon Director, ORI, Vol III ditto. Rajachandra 18:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Another editor has identified a problem with the documentation for the images that have been uploaded, noting that they lack exact source information. Unless this problem is corrected, the images could be subject to deletion. The problem should be easy to fix by adding text such as "Scan of page from Sritattvanidhi, originally published in 18??" to each of the image pages. Note that the issue here is which publication the scans are actually from. Are they from the orignal copies of the work, which would date to some publication date in 18??, or are they from a reproduction of later date? The complete citation data for the work from which they were scanned is needed. Buddhipriya 23:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Rajachandra 06:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Another editor removed the non-IAST transliteration, which I think was unfortunate. But as I have previously said, I agree that we should convert the romanization method to IAST, which is the standard academic method. This will facilitate comparison of the verses with the published versions elsewhere. I will work on this conversion gradually. I also do not support the use of tables, because the coding of them is very hard to maintain. One error in a line and the entire article is thrown off. So I think it would be much easier to keep the article stable if we stick to the present method of linear material. Buddhipriya 02:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
On another topic, the text, "Translation of the meditation verse provided by a Wikipedian:" is unsuitable and should be avoided. See WP:SELF. Abecedare 02:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Can I take a stab at it for the next half hour or so ? Abecedare 03:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I have finished editing the article for now, basing the formatting on Redtigerxyz's version and the text on this version. As far as I see the main work required in the "32 forms" part of the article is as follows:
Buddhipriya, please see if the new formatting is something you are comfortable working with in making the IAST edits etc. If not, feel free to revert to the all-text version to make your edits. We will always have the current version in the article history to look up the formatting from anytime in the future that we may need it. Cheers and happy editing! Abecedare 05:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Buddhipriya 06:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
In the ASCII romanization, the use of anusvara is preserved (which is good), and direct equivalent in IAST would be, e.g., svadaṁta ("his own tusk"). This is OK, and would be the most correct way to represent what is written in the original. However it is common practice to convert the anusvara to the corresponding nasal of the class to which it is prepended, thus writing (in this case) svadanta. I will leave the anusvara as they are, but does anyone have an opinion as to whether the nasalization conversion should be done here? I noticed this because I am comparing against a Devanagari version of the verses where the conversion has been done in that printed source. Buddhipriya 07:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Remember this is not a detailed book on "Slokas in Sritattvanidhi about Ganesha and their English Translations", but an arictle about Sritattvanidhi in wikipedia. I think all slokas in Kannada should be removed, so long a translation in English is given. I mean a translation just one. The difference in Mudgala Purana version should be noted. The whole verse need not be translated again.
Also i want to point out this is an article about Sritattvanidhi and not only the 32 forms of Ganesha. Sritattvanidhi article in wikipedia is supposed to be an introduction about the book and its matter (not only on Ganesha).-- Redtigerxyz 10:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Also i would like to use the same argument that user Buddhipriya 07:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC) used in Ganesha article discussion(topic Gajānana):-
"I am not sure that it is wise to keep adding all of these Sanskrit(and Kannada) names(terms), as they are likely to only confuse and perhaps annoy the English-speaking reader. I think the article has too many Sanskrit terms in it now."
-- Redtigerxyz 10:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
As I wrote on Buddhipriya's page: I just saw the recent bouts of reversions on this article. I am in general neutral on (if not mildly opposed to) including extensive non-English quotes in wikipedia article, but I do wish the issues are discussed calmly on talk pages to bring out the pros-and-cons in each specific instance; especially when good-faith, experienced editors (and not drive-by vandals) are involved.
There are no copyright/BLP issues involved with either versions of the article (with or without the Kannada text) so I don't think there is any need to immediately revert from one version to another. So lets try to discuss the issue here on the talk page and arrive at a consensus. Regards.
Abecedare
21:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
This is sheer vandalism. I took many late nights for me to read the original texts and transliterate them. One cannot understand the logic . Who is imposing these limitation ? When wiki has many language versions, and readers across the globe, how can you be self centric. Tomorrow you may well say why you need pictures and may well delete them. These texts are part and parcel of the original pictures as the author intended it that way . The meanings which are left in these columns are neither accurate nor authentic translations of the original texts. After all the paintings are based on the description in mudgala purana ( text). I am sorry i may be a bit harsh, but i am outraged.
As for as the title of sritattvanidhi to this thread, it is misnomer, i agree. It is impossible to reproduce something like sritattvanidhi in this thread. I do not think it was the intentions of the author of this thread. But then i did not name it, so do not know the reasons. It could be like Prof . S.K.Rama Chandra Rao naming his book, thought it was from some other work of the Maharaja. May be name is more well known and synonymous with the works of the Maharaja.
I accidentally found the thread and set about building them over many months and as a matter of fact, i was not finished with my work yet as i was busy . Though i never objected to comments and deletions and corrections ealier by Budhipriya, as it was within known editing norms. Now it is more like a bull in a chinashop.
Now i do not feel the urge to spend any time on wiki, instead it is better to have a blog and write what you want and when you want. sorry folks.
Rajachandra 18:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I have rolled back to Buddhipriya's version (Revision as of 06:46, July 18, 2007). Redtiger's removal of shlokas is totally out of line and borders on vandalism. Shlokas are a part and parcel of this work and transliterations are used routinely on several articles (see Jana Gana mana, vande mataram, sare jahanse achcha) etc.,. If you want to change the policy and evolve a MoS for India related articles, go to WP:IN talk page and work it out with the community there. Until then, hold your peace. And btw, there may have been some valid good faith edits that may have been undone in this rollback, but I will examine it and bring them back over the next couple of days. Sarvagnya 08:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, here is my 2c:
Abecedare 23:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
My initial general comment 14 August 2007 about putting slokas, translations, and transliterations on a subpage was placed here in error and has been moved by me, slightly revised, over to the WP Hindu talk page. Sorry for the confusion & inconvenience. -- Lisasmall | Talk 15:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Greetings! In the article, it is mentioned that: He has six arms. He is blue in colour. His hands show the rosary, the pomegranate, the paddy ear (shalyagra), the nocturnal lotus, the lute (vîna); his sixth hand sometimes bears a guñja berry, embraces the goddess. The Ucchista Ganapati trunk is placed on the goddess's thigh
However, some sources say that Ucçhishṭa Gaṇapati is red in colour. Of course, Hinduism as a rich and diverse religion might have many conceptions on that. I was just wondering, though, if the red manifestation should be included in the article as well (naturally if that's the case even).
I'd like to emphasize that following is not a reliable source in the academic sense of the word. Moreover, it is just to demonstrate the other conception on this matter:
Matangi and Ganesha are both related to elephants. The terms - matanga, maatanga and matanga raja – all refer to the elephant. Matangi had her origin amidst the elephant huntress and she holds a hook (ankusha) that controls an elephant. Ganesha as para-vak the un-manifest word is at muladhara, while Matangi as vaikhari –vak is at visuddhi. The tantric sadhana regards Matangi as the female counterpart of Ucchishta Ganapathi.
The Ucchishta Ganapathi is a tantric form of Ganesha. He is depicted as red in color, naked and intoxicated. In some forms he is shown amorously playing with his consort seated on his left lap (nari-yoni-rasasvada lolupam, Kama mohitam). Like Matangi, the Ucchishta-Ganapati too is associated with unclean things. ( http://creative.sulekha.com/dasha-ten-mahavidya-part-four-dhumavati-bagalamukhi-matangi-and-kamala-4-of-4_546569_blog)
So, is Ucchishta Ganapathi just in blue form, or does it appear in red as well? Jayaguru-Shishya ( talk) 12:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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Thank you for your interest in the article on the Sritattvanidhi. Can you add any book references for the material you have added? We are trying to upgrade the quality of references on many of the Hinduism articles, which are often without citations now. Also, the picture you added has no associated documentation on file explaining where it is from or what the connection is. Can you help with that? I would also love to find an ISBN or book supplier for reproduction of the work that may still be available. It is a classic that needs wider attention. Buddhipriya 18:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
In order to keep conversations in one place on Wikipedia, I will transfer a copy of your remarks here. Thank you so much for replying! If you could upload pictures of all 32 forms showing the text it would be a great contribution. These pictures often appear in degraded forms in devotee publications, often with incorrect identification as to which form is which. If you read the script, could you upload the pictures and also doocument exactly which form appears in each picture, as you did with Mahaganapati? Having the original pictures on file with a systematic documentation of the names of the forms as given in the text would be invaluable to researchers, whc generally cannot obtain access to the source text directly. We could then work together to get the 32 forms integrated into the article. Please reply to this here, on your talk page, to keep the discussion in one place. I will add this page to my watchlist. Also, please sign your comments by typing four tildes ~~~~ which will add your name and a link to here in all your submissions. It saves time for the readers.
Repost of reply: You can get the book from: Director prasaranga University of Mysore Manasagangothri Mysore-570006
you can also get the books from online sources like
https://www.dkagencies.com/doc/Home.html and serch for mummadi.
I also feel the title srittavanidi for your post on ganapati is not right.
If you need any more info ot if you feel i should post all the 32 paintings along with the original kannada texts, kindly let me know. raja
Buddhipriya
17:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
i have since corected a bit of your post:
1. Maharaja died on 28 march 1868. 2. The first page, the author states thus: May the work sri tattvanidi, which is illustrated and contains secrets of mantras and which is authored by king sri krishna raja, be written without any abstacle. Salutation to Lord ganapati and goddess chamundambika...
Hence we cannot today doubt the authorship and say it was done at his command !
Rajachandra 17:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
i have added two pictures today. i will upload a new pic of mahaganapati later. i will also transliterate the kannada texts as i progress.
Rajachandra 19:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
It is common to have conflicts about dates in some of these sources. When multiple versions of dates can be found, it is best to cite both, with proper references. The date in the article is properly sourced to Martin-Dubost. If you can provide a precise page and book reference for "Maharaja died on 28 march 1868" then I will add that alternative dating in. The 1868 date is probably right, but it is unreferenced, and thus fails the test of WP:RS.
Buddhipriya 19:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
i can quote any number of sources. you could also see http://www.4dw.net/royalark/India/mysore4.htm.
Ref: 1.Annals of the Mysore Royal family Part 1 & 2 (kannada)- a publication of rhe Royal family of Mysore.(1916) 2.Mummadi Krsihnarajendra wodeyaru (kannada) by O.N.Lingannayya (1940) - More specific- 11PM night on 27 march 1968. 3. Mummadi Krishna raja wodeyaru (kannada)by Dr.R.Gopal & Dr.S. Narendra Prasad- a publication of Directorate of Archeology and Museums, Hospet, Karanataka.(2004)- Puts it as 28 March 1868.
Hope this is sufficient Rajachandra 17:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no conflict here. Martin Dubost cannot be relied. Annals is virtually a family compendium of wodeyars. Rajachandra 18:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
As with the date of death, varying statements of direct authorship can all be stated, giving specific references that meet the test of WP:RS. Is it correct that this quote is from vol. 1 of the republished editon, or from some other edition? All that is needed is to clarify the edition and then I will add this view to that given by Martin-Dubost, which specifically states that he funded a project to do it as opposed to writing it all himself. The English word "authored" may broadly mean "arranged to be written" and it is not surprising that in the introduction full credit would be given to him regardless of whether he had help. Here is the quote we are working on:
2. The first page, the author states thus: May the work sri tattvanidi, which is illustrated and contains secrets of mantras and which is authored by king sri krishna raja, be written without any abstacle. Salutation to Lord ganapati and goddess chamundambika...
Hence we cannot today doubt the authorship and say it was done at his command !
Buddhipriya 19:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the pictures back to the right side because as I work with the text I need to use indentation to set off the quotes. When the pictures are on the left side the visual arrangement of the indented text is thrown off. It is important that the text be easy to read, so I recommend that we leave the pictures on the right side. Buddhipriya 17:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
It is wonderful that you are able to provide your own transcription of the text with your translation. Please continue doing so. However in Wikipedia we must follow WP:RS and give references to anything we put here. There have been some different translations of these verses printed in books about Ganesha, and as we go I will give what Wikipedia would consider to be a reliable source for each verse. These quotations will probably be different from what you are giving. Please watch for how they differ and let's see if we can identify any ways in which your translation spots errors. Please do not change any of the text as given by other translators. In Wikipedia it does not matter if what the quote says is right, it just needs to be an accurate statement of what that reliable souce said. If there are conflicts between reliable sources these can both be quoted. Providing your own translation may be challenged as WP:OR so we need to figure out how to include the information in a way that uses reliable sources.
See WP:RS#Language for policy on use of the original text. It is good to include the actual source language as you are doing. Buddhipriya 17:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
sorry i was busy. If you feel i need not add translations as i see them, i will add only the kannada text
Rajachandra 19:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I can see that the present article has been carefully worked on to use the older ASCII transliteration methods in an attempt to preserve a correct romanization of the Indic script, which was a good intention. The standard romanization method used for articles in the Hinduism project is IAST rather than the ASCII methods used to some extent in the article. I feel that it would be good for the article to standardize the use of IAST for that reason. An exception is that for words which have common English equivalents such as Ganapati, Shiva, or Vishnu, the common simple English romanization is preferred since this is an English-language Wiki. When IAST is used as the romanization it should be enclosed within Template:IAST which helps ensure correct rendering on web browsers and helps bots identify pages that contain Indic text. The IAST tag in use looks like this: {{IAST|Mahāganapati}} While Indic scripts such as Devanagari do not contain the idea of capitalization, the IAST specifications include capital letters as an accomodation for English readers. Hence proper names are generally capitalized as that is the custom in English.
For a summary of the IAST issues as I see them, please check User:Buddhipriya/IASTUsage and feel free to add any points there that you think pertain to this issue. That essay is a collection of threads and links related to romanization of Indic scripts. Buddhipriya 19:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Rajachandra 18:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Guide to layout specifies the use of Notes and References sections and I would like to adjust the article so that the standard methods are used for footnotes. In the standard system, footnotes go in "Notes" and works cited in footnotes go in "References", which becomes a "list of works cited". This makes it easier to comply with WP:CITE. I don't this will be controversial so I will go ahead and make the setup that way, adjusting existing content to the standard format. Buddhipriya 19:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
In setting up the standard reference sections I was unclear if there are two books or one book cited in this note. Can you please check reference data and compare with the standardized templates for books that I have tried to extract from it? My guesses may be wrong, so please verify. Here is the original citation:
Annals of the Mysore Royal Family , Part II, Government Branch Press, Mysore, 1922, page:176; mummaDi kRuShNarAja oDeyaru - oMdu cAriTrika adhyana ( Mummadi Krsihnaraja Wodeyar- a Historic Study) by Dr. R.Gopal & Dr. S.Narendra Prasad, published by Directorate of Archeology and Museums, Hospet- Karnataka-India in 2004 @page=104 ^ mummaDi kRuShNarAja oDeyaru - oMdu cAriTrika adhyana by Dr. R.Gopal & Dr. S.Narendra Prasad,@page=92-94
Here are the two (?) books which may be referred to, using book templates:
- Annals of the Mysore Royal Family , Part II. Mysore: Government Branch Press. 1922.
{{ cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|coauthors=
( help)- Gopal, R. (2004). mummaDi kRuShNarAja oDeyaru - oMdu cAriTrika adhyana ( Mummadi Krsihnaraja Wodeyar- a Historic Study). Karnataka: Directorate of Archeology and Museums.
{{ cite book}}
: Unknown parameter|coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) ( help)
Is there an author for the first item?
For this one, is there an author?
Sri Mummadi Krsihnaraja Wodeyar's 'Sritattvanidhi', Volume-1;shakti nidhi @ pages xviii-xxiv: by Oriental research Institute, University of Mysore, 1997
I have tried to standardize this to the template as follows:
Wodeyar, Mummadi Krsihnaraja (1997). Sritattvanidhi. Oriental Research Institute, University of Mysore.
{{ cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|coauthors=
( help)
Buddhipriya 19:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Annals 1 & 11 were edited by Mr. B.Ramakrishna Row - Palace Controller, as per orders of the then Maharaja Krishna Raja Wadiyar IV based on various sources available in the Palace.
As for as ORI books they also give credit to KRW III : Sri Mummadi Krsihna Raja Wodeyar's Srittatvanidhi - Vol I: Shakti nidhi... Chief Editors name is mentioned in each volume . For Vol I, credit has been taken by the then VC himself ( Prof. M.Madaiah) and Editor was Dr.H.P. Devaki, Director, ORI; Vol II - Chief Editor Dr. K.V. Ramesh, Hon Director, ORI, Vol III ditto. Rajachandra 18:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Another editor has identified a problem with the documentation for the images that have been uploaded, noting that they lack exact source information. Unless this problem is corrected, the images could be subject to deletion. The problem should be easy to fix by adding text such as "Scan of page from Sritattvanidhi, originally published in 18??" to each of the image pages. Note that the issue here is which publication the scans are actually from. Are they from the orignal copies of the work, which would date to some publication date in 18??, or are they from a reproduction of later date? The complete citation data for the work from which they were scanned is needed. Buddhipriya 23:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Rajachandra 06:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Another editor removed the non-IAST transliteration, which I think was unfortunate. But as I have previously said, I agree that we should convert the romanization method to IAST, which is the standard academic method. This will facilitate comparison of the verses with the published versions elsewhere. I will work on this conversion gradually. I also do not support the use of tables, because the coding of them is very hard to maintain. One error in a line and the entire article is thrown off. So I think it would be much easier to keep the article stable if we stick to the present method of linear material. Buddhipriya 02:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
On another topic, the text, "Translation of the meditation verse provided by a Wikipedian:" is unsuitable and should be avoided. See WP:SELF. Abecedare 02:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Can I take a stab at it for the next half hour or so ? Abecedare 03:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I have finished editing the article for now, basing the formatting on Redtigerxyz's version and the text on this version. As far as I see the main work required in the "32 forms" part of the article is as follows:
Buddhipriya, please see if the new formatting is something you are comfortable working with in making the IAST edits etc. If not, feel free to revert to the all-text version to make your edits. We will always have the current version in the article history to look up the formatting from anytime in the future that we may need it. Cheers and happy editing! Abecedare 05:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Buddhipriya 06:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
In the ASCII romanization, the use of anusvara is preserved (which is good), and direct equivalent in IAST would be, e.g., svadaṁta ("his own tusk"). This is OK, and would be the most correct way to represent what is written in the original. However it is common practice to convert the anusvara to the corresponding nasal of the class to which it is prepended, thus writing (in this case) svadanta. I will leave the anusvara as they are, but does anyone have an opinion as to whether the nasalization conversion should be done here? I noticed this because I am comparing against a Devanagari version of the verses where the conversion has been done in that printed source. Buddhipriya 07:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Remember this is not a detailed book on "Slokas in Sritattvanidhi about Ganesha and their English Translations", but an arictle about Sritattvanidhi in wikipedia. I think all slokas in Kannada should be removed, so long a translation in English is given. I mean a translation just one. The difference in Mudgala Purana version should be noted. The whole verse need not be translated again.
Also i want to point out this is an article about Sritattvanidhi and not only the 32 forms of Ganesha. Sritattvanidhi article in wikipedia is supposed to be an introduction about the book and its matter (not only on Ganesha).-- Redtigerxyz 10:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Also i would like to use the same argument that user Buddhipriya 07:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC) used in Ganesha article discussion(topic Gajānana):-
"I am not sure that it is wise to keep adding all of these Sanskrit(and Kannada) names(terms), as they are likely to only confuse and perhaps annoy the English-speaking reader. I think the article has too many Sanskrit terms in it now."
-- Redtigerxyz 10:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
As I wrote on Buddhipriya's page: I just saw the recent bouts of reversions on this article. I am in general neutral on (if not mildly opposed to) including extensive non-English quotes in wikipedia article, but I do wish the issues are discussed calmly on talk pages to bring out the pros-and-cons in each specific instance; especially when good-faith, experienced editors (and not drive-by vandals) are involved.
There are no copyright/BLP issues involved with either versions of the article (with or without the Kannada text) so I don't think there is any need to immediately revert from one version to another. So lets try to discuss the issue here on the talk page and arrive at a consensus. Regards.
Abecedare
21:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
This is sheer vandalism. I took many late nights for me to read the original texts and transliterate them. One cannot understand the logic . Who is imposing these limitation ? When wiki has many language versions, and readers across the globe, how can you be self centric. Tomorrow you may well say why you need pictures and may well delete them. These texts are part and parcel of the original pictures as the author intended it that way . The meanings which are left in these columns are neither accurate nor authentic translations of the original texts. After all the paintings are based on the description in mudgala purana ( text). I am sorry i may be a bit harsh, but i am outraged.
As for as the title of sritattvanidhi to this thread, it is misnomer, i agree. It is impossible to reproduce something like sritattvanidhi in this thread. I do not think it was the intentions of the author of this thread. But then i did not name it, so do not know the reasons. It could be like Prof . S.K.Rama Chandra Rao naming his book, thought it was from some other work of the Maharaja. May be name is more well known and synonymous with the works of the Maharaja.
I accidentally found the thread and set about building them over many months and as a matter of fact, i was not finished with my work yet as i was busy . Though i never objected to comments and deletions and corrections ealier by Budhipriya, as it was within known editing norms. Now it is more like a bull in a chinashop.
Now i do not feel the urge to spend any time on wiki, instead it is better to have a blog and write what you want and when you want. sorry folks.
Rajachandra 18:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I have rolled back to Buddhipriya's version (Revision as of 06:46, July 18, 2007). Redtiger's removal of shlokas is totally out of line and borders on vandalism. Shlokas are a part and parcel of this work and transliterations are used routinely on several articles (see Jana Gana mana, vande mataram, sare jahanse achcha) etc.,. If you want to change the policy and evolve a MoS for India related articles, go to WP:IN talk page and work it out with the community there. Until then, hold your peace. And btw, there may have been some valid good faith edits that may have been undone in this rollback, but I will examine it and bring them back over the next couple of days. Sarvagnya 08:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, here is my 2c:
Abecedare 23:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
My initial general comment 14 August 2007 about putting slokas, translations, and transliterations on a subpage was placed here in error and has been moved by me, slightly revised, over to the WP Hindu talk page. Sorry for the confusion & inconvenience. -- Lisasmall | Talk 15:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Greetings! In the article, it is mentioned that: He has six arms. He is blue in colour. His hands show the rosary, the pomegranate, the paddy ear (shalyagra), the nocturnal lotus, the lute (vîna); his sixth hand sometimes bears a guñja berry, embraces the goddess. The Ucchista Ganapati trunk is placed on the goddess's thigh
However, some sources say that Ucçhishṭa Gaṇapati is red in colour. Of course, Hinduism as a rich and diverse religion might have many conceptions on that. I was just wondering, though, if the red manifestation should be included in the article as well (naturally if that's the case even).
I'd like to emphasize that following is not a reliable source in the academic sense of the word. Moreover, it is just to demonstrate the other conception on this matter:
Matangi and Ganesha are both related to elephants. The terms - matanga, maatanga and matanga raja – all refer to the elephant. Matangi had her origin amidst the elephant huntress and she holds a hook (ankusha) that controls an elephant. Ganesha as para-vak the un-manifest word is at muladhara, while Matangi as vaikhari –vak is at visuddhi. The tantric sadhana regards Matangi as the female counterpart of Ucchishta Ganapathi.
The Ucchishta Ganapathi is a tantric form of Ganesha. He is depicted as red in color, naked and intoxicated. In some forms he is shown amorously playing with his consort seated on his left lap (nari-yoni-rasasvada lolupam, Kama mohitam). Like Matangi, the Ucchishta-Ganapati too is associated with unclean things. ( http://creative.sulekha.com/dasha-ten-mahavidya-part-four-dhumavati-bagalamukhi-matangi-and-kamala-4-of-4_546569_blog)
So, is Ucchishta Ganapathi just in blue form, or does it appear in red as well? Jayaguru-Shishya ( talk) 12:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)