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I've had to remove some nonsense from the lead again, specifically this:
They characterize the Sri Lankan government's handling of the JVP uprisings and the long drawn civil war against against Tamil militant groups as state terrorism. The government on its part denies the allegations.
Many of the allegations listed here say nothing whatsoever about the JVP or "Tamil militant groups" - in fact, one of the sources accuses the government of using state terror against Sinhalese. In addition, the government does not appear to have denied any allegations. Jayjg (talk) 02:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
[13] [14]) Sarvagnya 07:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed one source, in which I found (totally) false information,or i would rather call it rubish(es). If the author consider sending army to a area within the borders of Sri Lanka,is state terrorism (!!!), I am kindly asking him to go to the nearest clinic immediately. Also, I am not sure why this editor/s keep repeating the same false information, such as imposing Sinhala only policy in 1970's over and over..Finally and most importantly, why would we give such an authority to one author, when making this kind of controversial remarks..Isn't wikipedia an encyclopaedia ? Olso,hats off to sarvgnya and snowolf for their excellent comments here,though what they say here is obvious its interesting to whether these obvious(es) would be consider in the future.Ohh,almost forget this, Sorry for being away from the debate for a while(I was travelling around). Hopefully I may able to(if time permits) contribute more from now on..thanks Iwazaki 会話。討論 11:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
his own BIO got deleted.Anyway I heard he got re-incarnated and appears here with another name, have any guesses ? Iwazaki 会話。討論 22:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
How about an article about Terrorism in Sri Lanka just like Terrorism in India. The article will merge this one as well as the lsiut of terrorist attacks by the LTTE into one Neutral article ? . Justa question. Thanks Taprobanus 12:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} I want the following to be added to the article please:
UTHR, a local human rights organization , claimed that Tamils faced repeated bouts of state terror. It further asked that the state terror must be recognized and stopped.
The article has been protected 11 days, and the talk page is quiet, so I'm going to unprotect it. If the edit warring starts again I'll protect it again. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 21:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Please stop removing RS from this article. Users seem to want to remove a citation from a book that is published by a respected publisher - Stanford University Press. Same thing goes about removing citation from UTHR. Please refrain from this. Thanks Watchdogb 01:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed that this article be merged into Human rights in Sri Lanka. Please comment in the discussion at Talk:Human rights in Sri Lanka. — Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
If this article is kept and not merged to Human rights in Sri Lanka (as proposed above), I suggest that it be renamed to State terrorism in Sri Lanka per the NPOV policy, which states:
Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might ... cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing.
The current title restricts the article's content to allegations of state terrorism, leaving little or no room for presentation of the opposite point of view. Having an article about the general concept of state terrorism, rather than merely one specific POV, would allow the views of the GOSL and others to be presented, thus ensuring a more balanced article. Of course, I'm not suggesting that we assert the existence of state terrorism; allegations must still be presented as just that. However, I think we should encourage the addition of conflicting points of view that deny the existence of state terrorism in Sri Lanka. Comments? — Black Falcon ( Talk) 18:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Snowolfd4, thank you for sourcing the claims that Tambiah and Somasundaram are Tamils. That takes care of WP:BLP issues. The other issue that I mentioned in my edit summary was WP:NPOV: why is it relevant to note their ethnicity? Why don't we note the ethnicity of James and Brenda Lutz, Gananath Obeyesekere, Chandrika Kumaratunga, and Yael Danieli? The addition seems to imply that Tambiah and Somasundaram are, because of their ethnic affiliation, biased. This may very well be true, but I think that such an implication would either need to be sourced or somehow balanced, considering that people can be neutral when discussing issues relevant to their ethnic group, race, country, and so on. — Black Falcon ( Talk) 17:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
If we can take the pains to note in a whole coatrack of articles that every 'alleged' victim of rape, murder, 'forced disappearance' (real and imagined) in SL is/was of 'minority Tamil ethnicity', I dont see why noting that all (almost) those making 'exceptional' claims also happen to be Tamils. If anything, I suggest that you guys go ahead and add to Thambiah and SS also the "Tamil ethnic minority" qualifier. Sarvagnya 21:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The article is a POV fork and deserves to be deleted. Also, considering the fact that all allegations are either from isolated academics or from political opponents, this article also has serious NPOV and UNDUE problems. Hundreds and thousands of works have been written(by academics) about Sri Lanka and Sri Lankan politics and what we have here is a micro minority of cherry picked sources making tagential arguments about the 'allegations'(sic). If that was not bad enough, we have politically motivated allegations by political opponents being cited! For example, Vaiko's opinion is being bandied sans context sans disclaimers as if it was neutral, dispassionate opinion. For those who dont know, Vaiko is an avowed and open supporter (nothing 'alleged' about it) of the LTTE's cause(sic) and was even thrown into jail for it under the Prevention of terrorism Act - POTA (a bill which he championed himself in the Indian parliament). His support of the LTTE is common knowledge and has been widely documented. Unless these issues are fixed, I will be tagging the article with the appropriate tags. Sarvagnya 21:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Sarvagnya, you claim "cherry picking from a book on cannibalism or something is stll there". Can you point out which book you are taking about ? Further, you said "non-rs sources have been introduced" ? What are the Non-rs that have been introduced ? and why are they unRS for stating a person's view? You also claim "synth is back and weaseling and several probs remain", where ? what exactly are you talking about ? What are the so called several problem ? Watchdogb 19:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Various groups and individuals have accused the Sri Lankan government of committing state terrorism. They characterize the Sri Lankan government's handling of the JVP uprisings and the long drawn civil war against Tamil militant groups as state terrorism. The government on its part denies the allegations.
Let's discuss, what is the issue now so we dont have to edit war on this article again . Thanks Taprobanus —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 21:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Please add citation to claim that Jeyaraj Thambiah is a biased source. Being Tamil does not make anyone biased. This is false allegation unless there is proof. If you want to add it back, go ahead but only after citation. Another issue is calling The International Federation of Tamils a pro LTTE. There has been no citation since August. Please provide citation with and add it back. I took off OR tags from the article. Please refer to WP:OR and note that this article is cited. It cites every allegation. So it does not have any OR. Last, remember that when a source is considered Bias, then you explicitly mention who claims what. This is the exact thing that is being done on this article. Every allegation is attributed to who says it. There is no need to around adding bias source everywhere because explicit attribute is added to take care of just that. Watchdogb 16:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I had stayed out of this article, but now that even the main opposition claim Sri Lanka is practicing state terror, I think its controversial to keep the tag. Therefore I am removing it and adding RW quote on the subject. Sinhala freedom ( talk) 17:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
According to the title, this article should present an overview of the topic "allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka"; however, at present, it is effectively a list of allegations.
While it is undisputable that there exist allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka, this does not automatically make the subject of "allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka" a valid one. According to WP:SYNT:
Material can often be put together in a way that constitutes original research even if its individual elements have been published by reliable sources.
Is "allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka" by itself a distinct topic of interest? If so, then this should be demonstrated in the article. If not, then the article should be deleted or renamed and repurposed per WP:SYNT and the notability guideline (after all, a lack of sources about the topic means a lack of proof that the topic is notable). Since deletion should generally be a last resort, I would like to consider the possibilities for renaming and/or repurposing. As I see it, there are three options:
I contend that such a list would violate WP:NPOV and WP:NOT#DIRECTORY ("Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics").
It violates WP:NPOV because it gives undue weight to the point of view of those people and organisations who make allegations of state terrorism against the government of Sri Lanka. While it's possible to include statements to the effect that the GOSL denies state terrorism, it would not be possible to do this in the context of a List of allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka in a manner that provides due weight to the GOSL's (and others') position.
It violates WP:NOT#DIRECTORY because a list of allegations essentially constitutes a list of loosely-associated topics. When different people/organisations allege state terrorism, they do not always apply the same definition, and are often referring to distinct events, incidents, or patterns of behaviour.
An article about the topic "state terrorism in Sri Lanka" would, in my view, be more viable. Although it is unlikely that "allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka" is a distinct topic of interest, "state terrorism in Sri Lanka" likely is. (The literature seems to focus mostly on events and actions, not allegations.)
An article under this title and with this scope could be written from a neutral point of view, since it would be possible to adequately present all relevant views in the context of a general overview of the topic, rather than a directory of allegations.
If the topic "state terrorism in Sri Lanka" is not a distinct topic of interest, or there is not adequate material to justify its existence as a separate article, then the contents of the article should be selectively merged to Human rights in Sri Lanka.
I have participated in and am aware of two major prior discussions involving these issues:
The first (see Talk:Allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka#Proposed pagemove), concerning a proposed pagemove to State terrorism in Sri Lanka, involved only myself and three other editors. In that discussion, I argued for a pagemove per the NPOV policy, which states:
Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might ... cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing.
Snowolfd4 disagreed with the proposal, suggesting that the title State terrorism in Sri Lanka implies that state terrorism actually exists. I do not believe that to be the case, and feel that the article title would simply reflect the name of the topic (e.g. the article title "Human rights in Sri Lanka" refers to the topic, not to the existence of human rights in Sri Lanka). Two other editors supported the pagemove, but the discussion essentially died out without any tangible result.
The second (see Talk:Human rights in Sri Lanka#Merge from Allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka), concerning a proposed merge to Human rights in Sri Lanka, failed to develop a consensus for merging. There seemed to be three main arguments against merging:
I've attempted to apply the lessons from these two discussions by offering a more detailed coverage of the issues involved, initiating a single thread for discussion of these inter-related issues rather than two threads on two talk pages, and establishing a context for discussion that is broader than just merging or renaming and asks: "What should be done with this article, in general?"
I ask that interested editors offer their thoughts and evaluations in this section. (Note: I have posted a link to this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation.) – Black Falcon ( Talk) 21:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
This sub topic quotes a report from the Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) which is based on a report by Allen Rock. Alen Rock was accused as a terrorist and a collaborator by a SL minister and disputed by the GoSL. [15]
The current version also says the Report by the AHRC calls SL armed forces as committing in "war crimes". The report [16] how ever merely states it's a war crime to recruit children and it does not accuse the SLA of war crimes. and needs to be changed to NPOV.
Just because SL Army had collaborated with the TVMP on one occasion it does not mean they are recruiting children. SLA != TVMP. -- Navod Ediriweera ( talk) 04:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
First, please read the rules of wikipedia carefully. Here we try to say what RS says. We do not apply our WP:OR and then dismiss the statements made by RS. Thanks Watchdogb ( talk) 13:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a seperate title called "Aspirations for Eelam"? What does it has to do with the "allegations of State terrorism in SL"?-- Navod Ediriweera ( talk) 04:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The sub topic mass civilian deaths gives the death of 15 civilians? Is that a "mass" death? how much is "mass"?-- Navod Ediriweera ( talk) 04:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
I've had to remove some nonsense from the lead again, specifically this:
They characterize the Sri Lankan government's handling of the JVP uprisings and the long drawn civil war against against Tamil militant groups as state terrorism. The government on its part denies the allegations.
Many of the allegations listed here say nothing whatsoever about the JVP or "Tamil militant groups" - in fact, one of the sources accuses the government of using state terror against Sinhalese. In addition, the government does not appear to have denied any allegations. Jayjg (talk) 02:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
[13] [14]) Sarvagnya 07:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed one source, in which I found (totally) false information,or i would rather call it rubish(es). If the author consider sending army to a area within the borders of Sri Lanka,is state terrorism (!!!), I am kindly asking him to go to the nearest clinic immediately. Also, I am not sure why this editor/s keep repeating the same false information, such as imposing Sinhala only policy in 1970's over and over..Finally and most importantly, why would we give such an authority to one author, when making this kind of controversial remarks..Isn't wikipedia an encyclopaedia ? Olso,hats off to sarvgnya and snowolf for their excellent comments here,though what they say here is obvious its interesting to whether these obvious(es) would be consider in the future.Ohh,almost forget this, Sorry for being away from the debate for a while(I was travelling around). Hopefully I may able to(if time permits) contribute more from now on..thanks Iwazaki 会話。討論 11:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
his own BIO got deleted.Anyway I heard he got re-incarnated and appears here with another name, have any guesses ? Iwazaki 会話。討論 22:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
How about an article about Terrorism in Sri Lanka just like Terrorism in India. The article will merge this one as well as the lsiut of terrorist attacks by the LTTE into one Neutral article ? . Justa question. Thanks Taprobanus 12:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} I want the following to be added to the article please:
UTHR, a local human rights organization , claimed that Tamils faced repeated bouts of state terror. It further asked that the state terror must be recognized and stopped.
The article has been protected 11 days, and the talk page is quiet, so I'm going to unprotect it. If the edit warring starts again I'll protect it again. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 21:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Please stop removing RS from this article. Users seem to want to remove a citation from a book that is published by a respected publisher - Stanford University Press. Same thing goes about removing citation from UTHR. Please refrain from this. Thanks Watchdogb 01:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed that this article be merged into Human rights in Sri Lanka. Please comment in the discussion at Talk:Human rights in Sri Lanka. — Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
If this article is kept and not merged to Human rights in Sri Lanka (as proposed above), I suggest that it be renamed to State terrorism in Sri Lanka per the NPOV policy, which states:
Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might ... cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing.
The current title restricts the article's content to allegations of state terrorism, leaving little or no room for presentation of the opposite point of view. Having an article about the general concept of state terrorism, rather than merely one specific POV, would allow the views of the GOSL and others to be presented, thus ensuring a more balanced article. Of course, I'm not suggesting that we assert the existence of state terrorism; allegations must still be presented as just that. However, I think we should encourage the addition of conflicting points of view that deny the existence of state terrorism in Sri Lanka. Comments? — Black Falcon ( Talk) 18:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Snowolfd4, thank you for sourcing the claims that Tambiah and Somasundaram are Tamils. That takes care of WP:BLP issues. The other issue that I mentioned in my edit summary was WP:NPOV: why is it relevant to note their ethnicity? Why don't we note the ethnicity of James and Brenda Lutz, Gananath Obeyesekere, Chandrika Kumaratunga, and Yael Danieli? The addition seems to imply that Tambiah and Somasundaram are, because of their ethnic affiliation, biased. This may very well be true, but I think that such an implication would either need to be sourced or somehow balanced, considering that people can be neutral when discussing issues relevant to their ethnic group, race, country, and so on. — Black Falcon ( Talk) 17:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
If we can take the pains to note in a whole coatrack of articles that every 'alleged' victim of rape, murder, 'forced disappearance' (real and imagined) in SL is/was of 'minority Tamil ethnicity', I dont see why noting that all (almost) those making 'exceptional' claims also happen to be Tamils. If anything, I suggest that you guys go ahead and add to Thambiah and SS also the "Tamil ethnic minority" qualifier. Sarvagnya 21:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The article is a POV fork and deserves to be deleted. Also, considering the fact that all allegations are either from isolated academics or from political opponents, this article also has serious NPOV and UNDUE problems. Hundreds and thousands of works have been written(by academics) about Sri Lanka and Sri Lankan politics and what we have here is a micro minority of cherry picked sources making tagential arguments about the 'allegations'(sic). If that was not bad enough, we have politically motivated allegations by political opponents being cited! For example, Vaiko's opinion is being bandied sans context sans disclaimers as if it was neutral, dispassionate opinion. For those who dont know, Vaiko is an avowed and open supporter (nothing 'alleged' about it) of the LTTE's cause(sic) and was even thrown into jail for it under the Prevention of terrorism Act - POTA (a bill which he championed himself in the Indian parliament). His support of the LTTE is common knowledge and has been widely documented. Unless these issues are fixed, I will be tagging the article with the appropriate tags. Sarvagnya 21:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Sarvagnya, you claim "cherry picking from a book on cannibalism or something is stll there". Can you point out which book you are taking about ? Further, you said "non-rs sources have been introduced" ? What are the Non-rs that have been introduced ? and why are they unRS for stating a person's view? You also claim "synth is back and weaseling and several probs remain", where ? what exactly are you talking about ? What are the so called several problem ? Watchdogb 19:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Various groups and individuals have accused the Sri Lankan government of committing state terrorism. They characterize the Sri Lankan government's handling of the JVP uprisings and the long drawn civil war against Tamil militant groups as state terrorism. The government on its part denies the allegations.
Let's discuss, what is the issue now so we dont have to edit war on this article again . Thanks Taprobanus —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 21:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Please add citation to claim that Jeyaraj Thambiah is a biased source. Being Tamil does not make anyone biased. This is false allegation unless there is proof. If you want to add it back, go ahead but only after citation. Another issue is calling The International Federation of Tamils a pro LTTE. There has been no citation since August. Please provide citation with and add it back. I took off OR tags from the article. Please refer to WP:OR and note that this article is cited. It cites every allegation. So it does not have any OR. Last, remember that when a source is considered Bias, then you explicitly mention who claims what. This is the exact thing that is being done on this article. Every allegation is attributed to who says it. There is no need to around adding bias source everywhere because explicit attribute is added to take care of just that. Watchdogb 16:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I had stayed out of this article, but now that even the main opposition claim Sri Lanka is practicing state terror, I think its controversial to keep the tag. Therefore I am removing it and adding RW quote on the subject. Sinhala freedom ( talk) 17:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
According to the title, this article should present an overview of the topic "allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka"; however, at present, it is effectively a list of allegations.
While it is undisputable that there exist allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka, this does not automatically make the subject of "allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka" a valid one. According to WP:SYNT:
Material can often be put together in a way that constitutes original research even if its individual elements have been published by reliable sources.
Is "allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka" by itself a distinct topic of interest? If so, then this should be demonstrated in the article. If not, then the article should be deleted or renamed and repurposed per WP:SYNT and the notability guideline (after all, a lack of sources about the topic means a lack of proof that the topic is notable). Since deletion should generally be a last resort, I would like to consider the possibilities for renaming and/or repurposing. As I see it, there are three options:
I contend that such a list would violate WP:NPOV and WP:NOT#DIRECTORY ("Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics").
It violates WP:NPOV because it gives undue weight to the point of view of those people and organisations who make allegations of state terrorism against the government of Sri Lanka. While it's possible to include statements to the effect that the GOSL denies state terrorism, it would not be possible to do this in the context of a List of allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka in a manner that provides due weight to the GOSL's (and others') position.
It violates WP:NOT#DIRECTORY because a list of allegations essentially constitutes a list of loosely-associated topics. When different people/organisations allege state terrorism, they do not always apply the same definition, and are often referring to distinct events, incidents, or patterns of behaviour.
An article about the topic "state terrorism in Sri Lanka" would, in my view, be more viable. Although it is unlikely that "allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka" is a distinct topic of interest, "state terrorism in Sri Lanka" likely is. (The literature seems to focus mostly on events and actions, not allegations.)
An article under this title and with this scope could be written from a neutral point of view, since it would be possible to adequately present all relevant views in the context of a general overview of the topic, rather than a directory of allegations.
If the topic "state terrorism in Sri Lanka" is not a distinct topic of interest, or there is not adequate material to justify its existence as a separate article, then the contents of the article should be selectively merged to Human rights in Sri Lanka.
I have participated in and am aware of two major prior discussions involving these issues:
The first (see Talk:Allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka#Proposed pagemove), concerning a proposed pagemove to State terrorism in Sri Lanka, involved only myself and three other editors. In that discussion, I argued for a pagemove per the NPOV policy, which states:
Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might ... cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing.
Snowolfd4 disagreed with the proposal, suggesting that the title State terrorism in Sri Lanka implies that state terrorism actually exists. I do not believe that to be the case, and feel that the article title would simply reflect the name of the topic (e.g. the article title "Human rights in Sri Lanka" refers to the topic, not to the existence of human rights in Sri Lanka). Two other editors supported the pagemove, but the discussion essentially died out without any tangible result.
The second (see Talk:Human rights in Sri Lanka#Merge from Allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka), concerning a proposed merge to Human rights in Sri Lanka, failed to develop a consensus for merging. There seemed to be three main arguments against merging:
I've attempted to apply the lessons from these two discussions by offering a more detailed coverage of the issues involved, initiating a single thread for discussion of these inter-related issues rather than two threads on two talk pages, and establishing a context for discussion that is broader than just merging or renaming and asks: "What should be done with this article, in general?"
I ask that interested editors offer their thoughts and evaluations in this section. (Note: I have posted a link to this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation.) – Black Falcon ( Talk) 21:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
This sub topic quotes a report from the Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) which is based on a report by Allen Rock. Alen Rock was accused as a terrorist and a collaborator by a SL minister and disputed by the GoSL. [15]
The current version also says the Report by the AHRC calls SL armed forces as committing in "war crimes". The report [16] how ever merely states it's a war crime to recruit children and it does not accuse the SLA of war crimes. and needs to be changed to NPOV.
Just because SL Army had collaborated with the TVMP on one occasion it does not mean they are recruiting children. SLA != TVMP. -- Navod Ediriweera ( talk) 04:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
First, please read the rules of wikipedia carefully. Here we try to say what RS says. We do not apply our WP:OR and then dismiss the statements made by RS. Thanks Watchdogb ( talk) 13:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a seperate title called "Aspirations for Eelam"? What does it has to do with the "allegations of State terrorism in SL"?-- Navod Ediriweera ( talk) 04:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The sub topic mass civilian deaths gives the death of 15 civilians? Is that a "mass" death? how much is "mass"?-- Navod Ediriweera ( talk) 04:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)