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Your point being?
I see no reason to stop improving the introduction simply because it has been edited before. Of course, if the same arguments reappear, we have to take a look at archived discussions. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 13:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
The definition of atrocity is: an appalling or atrocious act, especially an act of unusual or illegal cruelty inflicted by an armed force on civilians or prisoners. This would seem a rather apt description of the Srebrenica Massacre. Yet, it is objected to. Would the Srebrenica Massacre need to be more unusual or more illegal or more cruel in order to qualify as an atrocity? The word atrocity is used in wikipedia in other articles to describe... well... atrocities. But it is objected to here. Fairview360 ( talk) 05:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
It is quite unfortunate that discussions on this article have become increasingly predictable. Thus, before making this edit to quote of the judgment of ICJ, I had to go through the judgment itself to see if and how often the Court uses that term (atrocity) in relation to situation that it characterizes as genocide, or to other acts of "lesser" degree. Needless to say it does quite often (19 times), but mostly in relation to Srebrenica. I am reverting the edit. Regards, -- Harac ( talk) 21:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Apparently there are still people who do not think it was genocide, so instead of putting forward decisions both of ICTY, ICJ, ECHR, Bosnian and German courts, it was decited that these two should be enough since they represent the highest courts of their kind in the world, although there are views (see above) for it to be edited. Regards, -- 195.130.46.162 ( talk) 09:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys,
I've just started a sandbox for the intro (actually it's just a user-subpage, which Wikipedia recommends as the easiest way to sandbox), it's located here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jonathanmills/Srebrenica_Massacre_sandbox
As you'll see, I've requested that the actual 'sandboxing' be done halfway down the page, just so we can have 'reference' copies of the current intro and my (very tentative) first draft.
Will probably make more sense to discuss changes rather than actually doing them, or we won't be able to easily see what the suggestions (and/or bones of contention) are.
Rather annoyingly, you can't 'add section' on the subpages, so just have to edit the whole page and add to the bottom, but oh well.
Anyway, I'll just post what I've got over there at the moment as my 'first stab':
Just want to emphasise that I'm not trying to cause trouble here; I'm more than happy to discuss/change any of this. Over at the sandbox I've saved the pieces of info I removed entirely; while I wouldn't necessarily argue that any of it is irrelevant, I'm trying to pare things down to the bare essentials, which is what an intro should be. Cheers Jonathanmills ( talk) 16:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Right, but I think putting a long quote from a judge into a footnote (rather than having it as a whole paragraph in the intro) would just be good practice in terms of readability. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that what I wrote was a *first edit*, which I am more than happy to change in response to editors' input. Jonathanmills ( talk) 22:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Well, then, why did you respond the way you did to the fact that (some of) the details were indeed incorrect? In any event, I'm happy to take your points on board in my second draft. Jonathanmills ( talk) 22:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) It's not informative at all as to the general events of the massacre. All it says is that VRS troops 'stripped the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them'.
I'm also not sure why you'd describe me as a 'novice editor', as I've been on and off this page for over two years now. In any event, it shouldn't matter whether I came on here yesterday or ten years ago, but rather the quality of my points. Jonathanmills ( talk) 22:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey guys, please stop fighting about who said what when, this is not very entertaining for other editors. Let us focus on improving the intro. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 22:05, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Most of those 624 victims were soldiers.Since when are soldiers counted as "victims".Btw Bosnian Serbs soldiers were responsible of numerous warcrimes and genocide.--
(GriffinSB) (
talk)
17:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Military deaths shouldn't stand in the same group with civilan deaths at all.Cause it helps to inflate the number of Serbs killed in the area.119 civilians were killed there in a course of 3 years.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 11:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi all,
I don't know exactly whether this is a no-no as such (in my view, it shouldn't really matter, as long as the info is accurate -- and accurately referenced -- and is NPOV), but I thought it ought to be brought to editors' attention: when I was looking for some info online, I clicked through the 'Srebrenica Genocide Blog' (published, I believe, by User:Bosniak) and noted a startling similarity to our article.
See, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre#Dispute_regarding_Serb_casualties_around_Srebrenica
and compare it to:
http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2008/07/grossly-inflated-numbers-of-serb.html
Like I say, I'm not sure if this matters as such (although I have a number of problems with the info itself, particularly in its presentation), but it seemed to warrant a mention.
Cheers Jonathanmills ( talk) 00:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
:Mike Babic, only 400+ Serbs died around Srebrenica (Podrinje, including Bratunac that doesnt belong to Srebrenica), 80% of them soldiers who murdered Muslim children. ICTY did not say that 1200 Serbs were killed, if you read their Press Release carefully, they were criticizing the book by Srebrenica genocide denier Milivoje Ivanisevic, so they said "Ivanisevic" alleged 1200 Serbs died, which does not meet reality. Read press release carefully before making rush conclussions. You have no credibility, even your Wikipedia profile page justifies Srebrenica genocide. Bosniak ( talk) 07:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Quick note for Mike Babic: Here is a fake picture of non-existend Serb "victim" around Srebrenica submitted by Milivoje Ivanisevic to justify Srebrenica genocide fake photo Bosniak ( talk) 08:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
: RDC database has been evaluated by ICTY experts and it is the most accurate info about the victims in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Bosniak ( talk) 07:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Well, the ICTY's opinion on the RDC should certainly be included; my objection is to using the RDC's own description of itself, ie 'non-partisan, non-governmental' etc. I think it is misleading, given the facts behind the setting up of the RDC. Jonathanmills ( talk) 18:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Mondeo, I copied information from WIKIPEDIA and included it in my blog. Therefore, the similarity. Bosniak ( talk) 08:02, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
We shouldn't really care about Mike Babic's opinion on warcrimes issues because he denies the Dubrovnik siege and it's destruction on his users page.--
(GriffinSB) (
talk)
10:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Source: REUTERS (Please incorporate it into the article) About 5,800 victims of Srebrenica Genocide have been identified through DNA analysis, but they can be reburied only after 70 percent of the bodily remains have been identified. Bosnian Serbs first buried the bodies near the execution sites but then dug out many of them with bulldozers and reburied remains in secondary mass graves in an attempt to hide the crime. Bosniak ( talk) 07:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
PS: Maybe we should create a short sub-section called "Forensic Evidence" or "DNA Evidence" and include information about DNA and forensic identification of Srebrenica genocide victims? Bosniak ( talk) 08:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
We should also create a sub-section about the Nato,Imperialist,Zionist,Vatican-Ustashi-Al-qaida Anti-Serb propaganda it should be called “Serbian truth” – a term used by Serbs themselves to refer to lying.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 12:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to discuss.
The Srebrenica Genocide, mostly known as the Srebrenica Massacre,[1][2][3][4] was the killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in the region of the town Srebrenica in eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina in July 1995.The Genocide was commited by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of Republika Srpska's chief commander General Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, at least one paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre.[5][6].In 1993 Srebrenica became a UN-protected "safe area" due to horrible condition the Bosniak polulation surrounded by Serbs was in.Srebrenica was besieged and it's population was exposed to starvation and constant shelling for 3 years.However UN did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.[7] After reviewing a comprehensive report, the Dutch government resigned over this matter in 2002. The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II.[8]
Yes,i also wanted to change te title of the article since the genocide in Srebrenica has been established by ICTY and ICJ. The point of calling it massacre is outdated and should be upda6ted to genocide.We can not spread false information in the article simply because there are more hits on the net that call it massacre.We go with the time.Only offical and legal facts and findings should be incorporated into the article and not the personal assumptions.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 16:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Off course it's both a massacre and genocide.But it's LEGAL status is genocide.With your kind of logic we should rename the article about the actor Henry Winkler into Fonzie simply 'cause people know him best for his role as Fonzie in the series Happy Days? Lol -- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 17:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys. Griffin, you either don't understand or don't care about what the rules are for naming articles on Wikipedia. Please read the page on 'naming conventions', specifically "Use the most easily recognized name" and "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic_creation#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name). Given that the term 'the Srebrenica genocide' is used by less than 1000 webpages (outside blogs) as opposed to some 35,000 for 'the Srebrenica massacre', as I demonstrated above, it is actually a complete fudge to even include it as an 'alternate common name'. The idea that the article should actually be CALLED 'The SG' is simply losing all touch with Wikipedia style rules.
As for the rest of your intro draught, no offence, but I don't think it flows well, it still doesn't give any description of the actual event in question, and it is also hopelessly biased in tone (if you're going to detail the suffering of Srebrenica before the massacre in the intro, I'm not sure why Serb casualties shouldn't be mentioned there either, as Mike Babic attempted to do; also you appear to have no grasp of encyclopaediac style -- "Srebrenica became a UN-protected "safe area" due to horrible condition the Bosniak polulation surrounded by Serbs was in" is simply childish in tone). Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Search for Un records and general Morrillion and his discription of the situation in Srebrenica in 1993 and why it became a save-haven.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 22:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Your are right about both sources.They are extremly biased.slobodan milosevic.org is runned by milosevic's defence team and intelligence officers.to me that says enough about their "neutrality".There is also video footage from Srebrenica(1993).People were starving.But one question always crosses my mind when talking about these issues.Why do Serbs deny EVERY SINGLE CRIME they commited?Isn't that stupid and pointless?-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 06:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC) BTW.What do you mean childish?Isn't it a fact that Srebrenica was surrounded by Serbian forces for three years?Also didn't the UN food convoys have trouble getting to Srebrenica because of the Serbian forces there?-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 13:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Perhaps the tone of my contribution was a little harsh, for which I apologise, but I stand by my statement that Griffin's argument that the page ought to be named 'the SG' reflects either an ignorance of, or a lack of respect for, Wikipedia naming conventions.
As for my contention that it 'does not describe the event', this is following on from previous discussion; ie that IMO the intro clearly needs more info about the event itself. As it stands, apart from learning that ~8000 Bosniak men and boys were killed in the region of Srebrenica in July 1995 by VRS units, we know nothing. Were the 8000 lined up in one giant line and slaughtered? How did it happen? (we haven't even pointed out that the VRS overran the enclave). Why was it simply 'men and boys'? We need to write for readers who know little or nothing about the event. Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Er... see 'Problem/s with the lead', above, as well as all the subsequent contributions on the topic. Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi all,
Does anyone actually object to the following change/s?
(Current version)
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time. After reviewing a comprehensive report, the Dutch government resigned over this matter in 2002.
(My draft)
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 7,000-8,000+ Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) men and boys in and around the town of Srebrenica, Bosnia by units of the Bosnian Serb Army (VRS) led by General Ratko Mladić during the 1992-1995 Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.
I've said previously that I think the stuff about the Dutch peacekeepers might fit better into a proposed second paragraph summarising the actual events of the massacre, but it makes sense to keep the info up for now; I've also argued that IMO the Scorpions' involvement is a) not important enough to include in the intro (and is a little misleading, as it potentially implies an unproven link to the Serbian state), and b) might work better in the para mentioning Serbian responsibility etc, BUT I'm OK with leaving it in for the sake of moving things forward.
The improvements (as I see it) are:
The numbers more accurately reflect RS opinion (as I pointed out a few weeks back, we see 7000, 8000 and a bit over 8000 as casualty figures in RS's);
It clarifies a few terms, ie 'Bosniaks', 'Srebrenica', 'VRS', 'Bosnia and Herzegovina', '1992-1995 Bosnian War' for an English-speaking audience not expert in the subject -- which is who Wikipedia is meant to be for;
It drops the irrelevant info about the resignation of the Dutch government -- although if anyone strongly objects, I don't mind re-including it.
NOTE: I changed the phrase 'under the command of Mladic' to 'led by Mladic' -- this is not intended as any political point, but rather to make a more readable sentence. However, if there is any particular objection here (and I intend to retain the hyperlink to 'command responsibility'), again, I'm not particularly worried about leaving it as is.
Any feedback from other editors? Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Oh, OK! A misunderstanding then.
As for Reliable Sources estimating 7000, or rather numbers with a base of 7000, here are a few:
Encyclopaedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/561873/Srebrenica
LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/24/world/fg-karadzic24
Radio Netherlands: http://www.rnw.nl/internationaljustice/tribunals/ICTY/080712-srebrenica-genocide-mc
AFP, quoting the White House (although I'm not sure whether they ought to count as a 'reliable source'! ;-) http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jiCB5U0t0v49S4eZYLSWj5SFA_pA
Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/17/AR2007071701733_pf.html
United Nations: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=21672&Cr=ICJ&Cr1
NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/world/europe/22hague.html
Human Rights Watch: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2005/07/10/legacy-srebrenica
BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/675945.stm
The Times (UK): http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article529329.ece
RFE/RL: http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1059762.html
And, for good measure, while it's not an RS...
Srebrenica Genocide Blog: http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/dragan-nikolic-in-pre-trial.html
Actually, I've just done a news-item search for 'srebrenica' and '7000' and there are plenty of RS mentions, see here: http://news.google.co.uk/archivesearch?q=srebrenica+7,000&as_ldate=2006&as_hdate=2008&scoring=n&hl=en&um=1&nav_num=100 (scroll down for more recent results). Jonathanmills ( talk) 00:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Jonathanmills ( talk) 00:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) I'm not trying to be argumentative here, honestly, but "What it means when an article states "more than" or "at least" is that they are not giving an estimate"... huh? Of course they're giving an estimate! As I pointed out, it would be logically true to say that 'more than 100' died at Srebrenica, but it would be absurdly misleading. 'At least' or 'more than' estimates are taken from the number which they *estimate* to be the lowest likely (or possible) number.
As for the 'demonstration' you refer to, I'm still not sure how this negates the examples I've given which do cite 7000 as a base number... however, I'll say again that I am not too concerned about keeping the current formulation of 'estimated 8000'. I'm going to reply to Mondeo on this point too, so see below. Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
FV, my point is, some of my refs were NOT two or three years old, and included some pretty important ones, like Encyclopaedia Britannica. Some are indeed from this year: that link I provided to the Google search gave several RS examples. SO, I don't see why the admitted fact that *most* current articles cite 8000 makes this completely irrelevant. As for the idea that 'at least [number]' is somehow not an estimate, indeed, there is not much more one can say, but it's not important for the moment I guess. Are you OK with the rest of the modifications if 'estimated 8000' is retained? Jonathanmills ( talk) 13:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Re JMs draft: I think this is much better, more to the point. The role of Scorpions can be included in a new paragraph below. The fact that a Dutch cabinet resigned is perhaps not important enough to be included in the intro at all. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 15:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Re numbers (which actually need to be treated more thoroughly in the body of the article): Research by Norwegian demography experts reached an estimate of 7,500: (ref tag) Research by Brunborg, H., Lyngstad, T.H. and Urdal, H. (2003): Accounting for genocide: How many were killed in Srebrenica? European Journal of Population, 19(3):229-248. reaches a conservative estimate of at least 7,475 killed, while their likely estimate is 7,536. Brunborg et al. finds 76 male victims under 16 years of age, 629 male victims over 60, and a total of 48 female victims. (ref tag) Authoritative estimates are then in the interval 7500-8500. It is then fair to write "estimated 8,000" (and provide details in a footnote as well as in a separate section), and in my opinion 7,000-8,000+ is clumsy and perhaps ambiguous. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 15:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I think that tinkering with the article in this manner will complicate things more, especially since it deals primarily with stylistic editing (which is inevitably subjective), rather than with anything substantive. Additionally, it is even more confusing - isn't it that "estimated 8000" is more accurate than "7000-8000 + ", which could mean pretty much anything (especially when you have enough backing for the first figure anyway). Also, some other issues: For example, in "town of Srebrenica, Bosnia...", should there be a "," after "Bosnia"?; also you can not say "Bosnia", you have to go with "Bosnia and Herzegovina", or accepted abbreviation... I think more time should be spent on unreferenced parts of the article (I have a lot of material, but not time currently, so I'll return to that), than on paragraph to paragraph discussions on phraseology. Regards, -- Harac ( talk) 20:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
1. No serious (ie, Western, non-Serb, non-Russian, non-Greek) source today says the sumber of people killed in Srebrenica in 1995 is below 8,000.
2. Jonatham, you must bear in mind that the negation of “Bosnia” as a name and as a country is part of the Greater Serbian ideology of Slobodan Milosevic et caterva. Just look at this quote from the mastermind of massacre Ratko Mladic:
“ | I was born in what was called Old Herzegovina. Bosnia and Herzegovina was an artificial creation of the Communist system and before that in the Austrian Empire. We Serbs reject the term ‘ Bosnia.’ We are Serbs and we know who we are. | ” |
The source is this 1994 article from the New York Times.
It has been made perfectly clear to JM that the proper name of the country of which Srebenica is a part is "Bosnia and Herzegovina", and yet he wants to take up reams of editorial discussion quibbling that it ought to state "Bosnia" instead of "Bosnia and Herzegovina". The current article emphasizes Gen. Mladic's command responsibility by correctly stating the troops were "under the commmand of General Ratko Mladic", and yet JM again wants to take up other editor's time quibbling over changing it to "led by General Ratko Mladic". JM issues petty complaints about an editor participating in the discussion as if that is remarkable and then complains about quibbling. No wonder there are those who are dismissive of him. The relevance of this, that which is not simply a matter of quibbling, is that JM proposes that if editors do not engage him on the discussion pages, that is tacit approval for his suggested edits when in fact some editors do not engage him either because they consider his suggestions foolish or do not consider JM a credible editor. Fairview360 ( talk) 00:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Fairview360 has a lot more patience than I would with Jonathanmills's interventions. There is something inconsistent about claiming ignorance as a preface to suggesting controversial amendments or alternatively producing masses of evidence to contest a generally accepted position. Specifically there is no authoritative basis for retreating from a minimum figure of 8000.
Most recently the European Parliament resolution of 15 January 2009 adopted by 556 elected representatives of the population of the democratic nations of the European, opposed by 9, with 22 abstentions stated that "more than 8000 Muslim men and boys ... were summarily executed by Bosnian Serb forces".
There is no legitimate case for mentioning any figure below 8000. Further attempts to tie up editors' time in this way should not be given the time of day and it should be reasonable and not "ad hominem" to question the motives of the proposer. This is not a game. Opbeith ( talk) 17:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
International Commission for Missing Persons, who previously were prepared to say that 8000 people had died at Srebrenica, have now adjusted their estimate upward to 8100. The Potocori Memorial Site list 8373 names of victims. Let's call a halt to all the time-wasting, to give it a polite name. Kathryne Bomberger, Director of ICMP, has described wilful obfuscation of the numbers in a rather less gentle way:
I don’t know if this information should be added to a “later developments” section in the article, but anyway, here it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.52.93.153 ( talk) 14:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The paragraph on "serb genocide defenders" is about activism, not about alternative views on the event itself (it is in the wrong section and perhaps it also gives to much prominence to fringe groups). I have moved the paragraph here for further discussion:
Serb genocide supporters on Facebook In December 2008, young Serbian ultra-nationalists set up the Facebook group The Knife, The Wire, Srebrenica ( Serbian: Nož-Žica-Srebrenica), which celebrates genocide committed in Srebrenica and general Ratko Mladić. The 1000-member group was set up for all those who think that Muslims are best on the spit and while swimming in sulphur acid. (ref tag)Reuters - Bosnians want Serb group shut down on Facebook [1](ref tag end)(ref tag)Radio Free Europe - Skandalozno tolerisanje nacionalizma na Facebook-u [2](ref tag end). In reaction "Society for Threatened Peoples", a non-governmental human rights organization from Bosnia and Herzegovina, made an appeal to the administrators of Facebook to shutdown the controversial group(ref tag) "Zatvoriti Facebook grupu 'Nož-Žica-Srebrenica'", at Sarajevo-x.com ( 12-11- 2008). Retrieved on 12-11- 2008(ref tag end), as well as an opposite group with over 14.000 members(ref) Facebook group "CLOSE GROUP NOZ ZICA SREBRENICA!"(ref tag). The group was removed by Facebook administrator on December 11, with new one being created in its absence(ref) (New) Facebook group "Noz Zica Srebrenica(ref tag end)(ref tag)Deutsche Welle - Facebook zatvorio grupu "Nož, žica, Srebrenica" [3](ref tag end). (paragraph ends)
Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 13:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mondeo ( talk • contribs) 13:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Although it could also be placed in the "Post-war developments", I think it is appropriate for it to be a subsection of alternative views (which it is obviously). Regards, -- Harac ( talk) 14:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
It's not marginal group at all. All media in Bosnia and Herzegovina reported about the group, police was informed. OHR - International Community Representative in Bosnia also made a statement about the group. A thousand people from the group is calling for another genocide on Bosniaks. It's all but marginal. Journalist 007 ( talk) 18:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Sources about FB incident:
Journalist 007 ( talk) 18:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
If you are sourcing Srebrenica genocide blog in your above comment, then better spend some time and read it before you trash my research. At least I am in touch with Srebrenica NGOs and know the situation on the ground better than you, so stop misusing factual information from my blog in your dicussion. As for the number of victims, they are 8,372 (not 8,373 as you claimed) and that's a preliminary list from the Federal Commission. I have requested they sent me updated list of victims in PDF. You're quoting sources that meet your pre-defined conclussions trying to use description "7,000 to 8,000" which is wrong. The only correct term for Srebrenica genocide intro is "at least 8,000". Want sources? How about CNN? http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/22/srebrenicia.feature/index.html "At least 8,000 Muslim men, boys slain when Serbs overran UN safe haven. If you are going to use my blog in your discussion, at least use proper data which you can find here http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2007/12/srebrenica-numbers-quick-facts.html Bosniak ( talk) 20:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The Missing Persons list currently posted at the Potocari Memorial Site http://www.potocarimc.ba/memorijalni_eng/favorite.htm numbers the missing presumed dead from 1.HAJRUDIN ABDURAHMANOVIĆ, aged 50, to 8373. ALIJA ŽIVALJ, aged 64. This list is almost certainly incomplete, given the various problems that have been referred to here from time to time in the past, including the wiping out of entire families leaving no-one to report the deaths. Opbeith ( talk) 23:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi all,
Just wanted to bring attention back to my proposed first-para changes (and yes, they are pretty minor, but I'm taking one thing at a time):
(Current version)
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time. After reviewing a comprehensive report, the Dutch government resigned over this matter in 2002.
(My draft)
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) men and boys in and around the town of Srebrenica, Bosnia by units of the Bosnian Serb Army (VRS) led by General Ratko Mladić during the 1992-1995 Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.
And, to repeat myself for clarity, I've said previously that I think the stuff about the Dutch peacekeepers might fit better into a proposed second paragraph summarising the actual events of the massacre, but it makes sense to keep the info up for now; I've also argued that IMO the Scorpions' involvement is a) not important enough to include in the intro (and is a little misleading, as it potentially implies an unproven link to the Serbian state), and b) might work better in the para mentioning Serbian responsibility etc, BUT I'm OK with leaving it in for the sake of moving things forward.
So..does anyone have any objections to this draft? I'll leave it here for discussion, but if nobody responds (don't worry, I'll leave it at least a week or so), I'll assume it's OK to proceed. Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
The name of the country is "Bosnia and Herzegovina". "Led by" is a vague term open to more than one interpretation. "Under the command of" is specific and the term used in the ICTY context. Opbeith ( talk) 23:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
For some reason FV objects to my formulation 'BSRoS', preferring 'RoS'. There appear to be two issues here:
1. Does the term need explaining, or is the hyperlink enough?
2. Is it fair to call the RoS 'Bosnian Serb'?
Regarding point (1), I think the following information should be sufficient: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OBVIOUS#State_the_obvious
State facts that may be obvious to you, but are not necessarily obvious to the reader. Usually, such a statement will be in the first sentence or two of the article. For example, consider this sentence:
"The Ford Thunderbird was conceived as a response to the Chevrolet Corvette and entered production for the 1955 model year."
Here no mention is made of the Ford Thunderbird's fundamental nature: it is an automobile. It assumes that the reader already knows this—an assumption that may not be correct, especially if the reader is not familiar with Ford or Chevrolet.
Now, if Wikipedia recommends explaining that a Ford Thunderbird is a car, there can be no doubt that 'Republica Srpska' demands an explanation (note that hyperlinks do not obviate the need for description). So we move to point (2).
Now, if you look up 'Republica OR republic Srpska' in Google news, it is standard for English-language RS's to refer to the RoS as 'Bosnian Serb' (or some variation thereof); here are just a few examples from a quick search:
http://www.rferl.org/content/Facebook_Row_Exposes_Fragility_Of_Balkans_CeaseFire/1360334.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2008/12/14/ethnic_divisions_fester_in_bosnia/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7742233.stm
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8a19e86e-c26d-11dd-a350-000077b07658.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSLL60202620081124
I'd actually be a bit surprised if there were any decent English-language source which *didn't* describe the Republica Srpska in that way whenever it was mentioned. (Note that, even if I'm wrong there, and there are instances of alternative definitions, it seems pretty clear that the above is standard, given that I literally checked all the first references from my search). Jonathanmills ( talk) 18:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
If there is a need to clarify even with hyperlink, it is enough to put a prefix "B&H entity" before it and hyperlink it (if they do not know what Bosnia and Herzegovina is and what entity is it is possible that they would not know what Bosnian Serb is also, a term usually not accepted by Serbs themselves - if that is relevant). More legally, saying that is it a Bosnian Serb entity is wrong since no entity is a property of an ethnic group. Constitution of RS itself states that is it an entity of Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats etc. Regards, -- Harac ( talk) 21:18, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) For the record, I did not intend to promote Serb-nationalist aims in my use of the word 'statelet' (I erroneously believed the word implied some sort of unofficial nature, rather than just small size). On the other hand, given that FV (along with most other editors here) are almost certainly partisans of the Bosniak-nationalist goal of fully integrating the Republika Srpska into Bosnia-Herzegovina, I fail to see how such a stance on my part would make me unfit to edit this page on the grounds of bias (which appears to be the intimation). Jonathanmills ( talk) 16:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
"Bosnian Serb Republic of Srpska" is a jumbled bunch of words which in and of itself is not going to help the novice reader. How is the novice reader supposed to know what all that means? What part of that is the actual title? Is it all one title "Bosnian Serb Republic of Srpska"? Does it mean that it belongs to Bosnian Serbs? Is it only for Bosnian Serbs? And where is it? Is it seperate from Bosnia? Near Bosnia? Part of Bosnia? Saying it is an entity within Bosnia and Herzegovina is helpful, understandable to the novice reader, and accurate. Not only is "Bosnian Serb Republic of Srpska" confusing, the prefix Bosnian Serb presents RS as a possession of one ethnic group when in fact RS has three constituent peoples: Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks. The RS legislature has Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks. And according to the constitution of RS all consituent peoples have equal rights. While the prefix Bosnian Serb can be intrepreted as possessive (as in the Cartright Farm) saying "predominantly Serb" would be descriptive, not possessive, and understandable to the novice reader. But again, for the truly novice reader the starting point is that the RS is an entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina not that it is majority Serb. If the reader knows that RS is majority Serb but doesn't know where it is, the reader is going to be confused. Fairview360 ( talk) 05:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
It is important to bear in mind that in a situation of conflict the precise meaning of words is often the subject of dispute and wilful disregard of the political implications of the language used is likely to imply partiality as well as possibly leading the novice reader into difficulties. The novice reader may not be aware of the sensitivity of a partiocular issue but no editor of a reputable reference work would seek to offload judgment onto a popularity poll of non-specialists. Reputable sources are liable to publish misleading material where they are insufficiently aware of complex issues. I doubt very much whether Wikipedia require editors to abandon their judgment. In the context of the sensitivity of Republika Srpska's name and ethnic composition any descriptive adjectives should be chosen very carefully or avoided.
The point of hyperlinks is to take the novice reader to an explanation of an unfamilar term or object. The Wikipedia article on Republika Srpska (not "Republic of Srpska") is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska. Opbeith ( talk) 00:18, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I’ve just read it on Radio Free Europe:
“ | The Belgrade daily ‘ Politika’ recently published a feuilleton by Serbian nationalist ideologue Dobrica Cosic claiming that former Bosnian Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic was responsible for the massacre of Muslims at Srebrenica. ‘During the brutal war in Bosnia,’ Cosic asserts, ‘only the Bosnian Serb military command behaved with honor and chivalry.’ | ” |
Maybe this kind of declaraion, made in 2008, could be put on the article, too.-- BalkanWalker ( talk) 03:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Dobrica Cosic, who killed people with his “pen” and “academic” dishonesty, is still spreading hatred. Sad, indeed. Bosniak ( talk) 01:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
"According to a DutchBat witness, several women who entered the compound handed their malnourished babies to DutchBat members 'because they just didn't know anymore what to do and what their future would bring.' This witness also testified that several times babies were thrust into his arms 'which were so swollen that they finally died.' Another DutchBat witness testified that a total of 11 people died in the DutchBat compound, among whom were children who died of dehydration. It was estimated that the refugees would survive only three or four days under the prevailing conditions." Trial Judgment: Blagojević & Jokić (IT-02-60)
Hi Bosniak (and others),
The reason I removed that reference again is because it is in Serbo-Croat/Bosnian, and there's no way an English speaker can work out whether those names listed are indeed part of the Bosnian govt's 'Missing or Killed' list, which is what the sentence indicates. The other thing is that it footnotes the entire sentence: The Preliminary List of People Missing or Killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Bosnian Federal Commission of Missing Persons contains 8,372 names, of whom some 500 were under 18, and includes several dozen women and some girls.
If the former (ie language) objection can be resolved, I can see room for the following compromise edit:
The Preliminary List of People Missing or Killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Bosnian Federal Commission of Missing Persons contains 8,372 names [citation needed], of whom some 500 were under 18 [your ref], and includes several dozen women and some girls [citation needed].
Cheers Jonathanmills ( talk) 18:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
As posted above: The Missing Persons list currently posted at the Potocari Memorial Site http://www.potocarimc.ba/memorijalni_eng/favorite.htm numbers the missing presumed dead from 1.HAJRUDIN ABDURAHMANOVIĆ, aged 50, to 8373. ALIJA ŽIVALJ, aged 64. This list is almost certainly incomplete, given the various problems that have been referred to here from time to time in the past, including the wiping out of entire families leaving no-one to report the deaths. Opbeith ( talk) 00:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
He keeps deleting sources (NGO Women of Srebrenica) for 500 victims under the age of 18. He also keeps deleting Dutchbat testimony about several babies that died. THIS MUST STOP. This is a clear vandalism on the part of this editor that we also had problems in the past. Bosniak ( talk) 18:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Bosniak. How can you justify deleting sourced parts such as Genocide supporters section? Kruško Mortale ( talk) 13:20, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
about attempts by the RS government and officials to hide the genocide by moving the bodies few times to different locations -- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 21:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
It's a well known fact that the bodies were moved few times in order to hide what happened there,so what's the problem?-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 17:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was not moved. The proponents of this move have made an excellent case that the use of the term "Srebrenica genocide" is growing in use, especially with the recent declarations by various national and international organizations. However, the opponents of this move also have made an excellent case that "Srebrenica genocide", while growing in use, has not yet achieved the status of most commonly used name. Therefore, while it seems a majority of editors support the move, there is not yet enough consensus for a move. This does not preclude a future move if genocide does become more commonly used than massacre; it's just not there yet, and we are not permitted to read the future. Cheers, -- Aervanath ( talk) 16:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Support - I opposed the move in the past because Srebrenica massacre was the more requently used term. But I have now changed my mind. Since the International Court of Justice confirmed the ICTY's finding of genocide, the slaughter is increasingly frequently referred to as the genocide rather than the massacre. Seha, you're not correct yet. The EU has not yet adopted July 11th as a Memorial Day but on 15 January the European Parliament passed overwhelmingly a motion - 556 votes in favour, 9 against, 22 abstentions - whose text is at http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P6-TA-2009-0028+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN
The Parliament "2. Calls on the Council and the Commission to commemorate appropriately the anniversary of the Srebrenica-Potočari act of genocide by supporting Parliament's recognition of 11 July as the day of commemoration of the Srebrenica genocide all over the EU, and to call on all the countries of the western Balkans to do the same;"
556 out of 587 of the elected representatives of the population of the member countries of the European Union decided that the event they were referring to was the Srebrenica genocide. I think the passing of their Resolution on 15 January can be considered adequate reason for reopening the discussion. Opbeith ( talk) 19:25, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Comment Every time this move proposal has surfaced, there have been accusations that those wanting to keep the present title are in some way seeking to deny that it was an act of genocide. It is important to remember that an event can have a certain name without that name changing what occurred. The name "Srebrenica massacre" appears to be the most common name applied to the event in news reports, official statements, and web searches. This does not change the nature of the event, and it is not Wikipedia's role to rename the event based on interpretations or opinions. -- Ckatz chat spy 04:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
There are links to Guardian, New York Times, Amnesty International, ICTY and justicetribune with explicite talking about genocide and not massacre, or massacre as a part of Srebrenica genocide. -- Seha ( talk) 12:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Oppose title change. See very precise comment by Ckatz: It is not our task as editors to find appropriate names based on our interpretations. "Massacre" is the most widely used name (see details in previous discussions), it is also a neutral, descriptive name, and the intro clearly states that the Srebrenica Massacre was genocide according to authoritative bodies. In addition, I think it is unwise to reopen this issue every 3rd month when an editor feels that the title is not perfect for some reason. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 12:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't see any new arguments above. "SG" and "SM" refers to the same event in 1995, and the article describes the event i 1995, its background and aftermath. Nobody has been able to demonstrate that "SG" has now become the common name for this event, the facts are clear: "SM" is used far more frequent than "SG" as specific name for this event, even during the last 3, 6 or 12 months. WP policy clearly implies that the title of the article remains "SM" until substantial changes in name usage can be observed. Best regards, Mondeo ( talk) 16:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
A search in Google Scholar (search engine for academic publications) reveals that "SM" is used in 475 publication, while "SG" is used in 56. In the JSTORE scientific database the ratio is 13 to 2. Similar ratios are found in news databases. The "commong name" for something is not changed by a vote in the European Parliament. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 15:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Apologies for the length of this reply to the various issues raised by Mondeo. I don't dismiss the argument that many people do use the expression "Srebrenica massacre", I simply believe that "Srebrenica genocide" is now the appopriate expression.
(1) "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
"minimum of ambiguity" implies that the name must be an accuracy indication of the subject matter. The "would most easily recognize" criterion must be understood accordingly. So as long as there's no obscurity this implies opting for the name that most closely describes the subject rather than the less accurate, more ambiguous, term.
(2) The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers' over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.
Assuming that anyone enquiring about "Srebrenica massacre" can be redirected to "Srebrenica genocide" the impact on uninformed readers should be positive rather than negative, guiding them to a clearer understanding of the subject that they're investigating. And as "Srebrenica genocide" is gaining in currency uninformed readers are as likely to come looking for information on the subject of the "Srebrenica genocide" as they are on the "Srebrenica massacre". Most informed readers are unlikely to have any problem with the more accurate title.
(3) Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English for the topic call the subject.
There are a variety of different kinds of "verifiable reliable sources". Where usage is changing and reporting of the subject tends to follow authoritative legal and political sources, albeit with a time lag, official use by competent international organisations should be considered as providing appropriate verifiable reliable sources at least equivalent to media reporting (examples below).
(4) Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.
This principle should be understood as referring to names used for the same person or thing. The "Srebrenica massacre" and the "Srebrenica genocide" are not identical. The difference in meaning has already been explained and is a substantial one. The massacre is the event itself and the term was used while the legal fact of criminality and the issue of responsibility were still to be resolved. Now that the fact of genocide has been established at the highest levels of international law, references to what happened at Srebrenica in most cases are concerned not simply with the raw event but with the combination of the event and its legal significance, i.e. the genocide.
The massacre can now be considered to be one aspect (a central aspect, of course) of the genocide. "Srebrenica massacre" is used legitimately to distinguish the event from the genocide but it is also used inaccurately as a superseded "relict" term. Relict usage is an inappropriate measure of the term's suitability for an article dealing with the genocide and not just the massacre.
The common use of the term "Rwandan genocide" rather than "Rwandan massacre(s)" supports the case for use of a parallel expression in relation to Srebrenica.
(5) Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another.
Neither "Srebrenica massacre" nor "Srebrenica genocide" can be considered controversial or in opposition to one another. "Srebrenica massacre" ceased to be controversial as the determined efforts to deny its reality were refuted by the exhumations from mass graves and other evidence proved in criminal trials. Since the ICTY's finding of genocide was confirmed by the International Court of Justice in February 2007 "Srebrenica genocide" is no longer the subject of legitimate controversy except in specialist areas of legal theory. Its non-controversiality is confirmed by the term's use by international bodies such as the United Nations, the European Commission and the European Parliament.
(6) If an article name has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should remain.
When there is ongoing and justified pressure for the name to be changed and substantial developments as cited and described provide good reason for change the persistence of the original name should not be described as stability.
(7) There is no substantial change in how reputable sources name this event.
International bodies at the highest level now use the expression "Srebrenica genocide" rather than "Srebrenica massacre" except with reference to the more restricted sense of massacre already referred to. The United Nations, the European Commission and the European Parliament now follow the International Court of justices's determination.
(8) If the english language news media use "SM" vs "SG" in a ratio 10 to 1 or 5 to 1, this is a clear indication that "SM" is indeed the common name (as required by WP)
A search in Google Scholar (search engine for academic publications) reveals that "SM" is used in 475 publication, while "SG" is used in 56. In the JSTORE scientific database the ratio is 13 to 2. Similar ratios are found in news databases.
This disregards the question of accuracy. Numbers of citations even from current published media sources is not necessarily an appropriate indicator, given that inaccurate or relict usage can distort those numbers, as well as legitimate references to a partial meaning within the whole. (Various examples have been discussed with reference to Mondeo's earlier selection of sources - Le Monde, Diplomatique, Reuters, etc.). This is why appropriate weight should be given to the terms deliberated, accepted and used by authoritative bodies such as international organisations.
(9) The common name for something is not changed by a vote in the European Parliament.
No, but the vote in the European Parliament, in which the term was endorsed by an overwhelming majority of elected representatives who would normally be expected to give careful thought to the significance of the words they commit themselves to using, was the outcome of a lengthy process of consultation and deliberation. The MEPs who voted for the Resolution exercise the authority granted to them by the population of most of Europe. No vote in an influential institution takes place as an event in isolation.
Although Wikipedia itself advises against a slavish adherence to general rules where inappropriate experience suggests that that sound advice is honoured more in the breach than observance. I console myself by reminding myself of the reflections of King Cnut/Canute.
Opbeith (
talk)
10:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
WP rule for name is very clear: The common name for the thing or event. A vote in the EU parliament does not change that. Opbeith claims that "SM" is a relict. Well, as I have said several times already: If I restrict search to last 3, 6 or 12 months, the result is still the same. I acknowledge Opbeith's arguments, but they are of little relevance as WP is edited according to WP policy and guidelines. So for instance "ongoing and justified pressure to change the name" is not relevant when this pressure is merely based on editors' opinions, and not on changes in public usage of a name. There are good reasons (evidence) for the current title, so there is no need to change it (as WP guidelines says). If other editors are able to produce evidence that "SG" has clearly replaced "SM" as the most widely used name for this event, that is, that there is notable stability in a pedominant use of "SG" in the public, then let us discuss it again. Let us slow down.
If Opbeith wants to change WP policy and guidelines this is not the right forum. I agree that it is an interesting idea to use names defined by authoritative bodies rather than common names (the most widely used and recognized name), but at present this is not in line with WP policy. A change of the title at present will clearly violate WP policy. Don't do it.
Best regards, Mondeo ( talk) 16:01, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I think that's a misrepresentation of the explanation for the proposal that I and others have offered, that we're dealing with two different concepts, albeit closely related, one of which largely encompasses the other. I hope I wasn't understood to be claiming that "Srebrenica massacre" was solely a relict usage. Opbeith ( talk) 17:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
oppose: Both arguments for and against the move have validity. It has been established beyond a doubt in a court of law that the massacre that took place in and around Srebrenica was an act of genocide. It is the view of this editor that the Srebrenica massacre was one of many acts of genocide, the overall genocide being committed throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina against Bosnian Muslims and against the multi-ethnic society of Bosnia and Hercegovina. This editor opposes the title change to "Srebrenica Genocide" because it combines a limited notion "Srebrenica" with something that in the opinion of this editor was much more widespread. To this editor, the title "Srebrenica Genocide" is like saying "Lower Left Lung Cancer" when the cancer is throughout both lungs but due to political considerations the hospital is only allowed to refer to one section of the cancer. If the cancer is throughout both lungs, saying "Lower Left Lung Cancer" creates the false impression that the cancer is limited to only one area of one lung. Saying "Srebrenica Genocide" implies the genocide was limited to Srebrenica which is not consistent with the views of this editor and therefore this editor opposes the move. In the opinion of this editor, the Srebrenica massacre should not be described as "The Srebrenica Genocide" but rather the largest of many massacres that constituted a Genocide throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina. To this editor, the title "Srebrenica Genocide" sounds warped not because this editor questions whether the massacre was an act of genocide, not because the title goes too far or presumes too much, but because it is too limited. It is a truncated term resulting from the international courts failure to prove the obvious, that the actual Genocide was throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina. Fairview360 ( talk) 18:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Fairview360, I certainly don't disagree with you in principle. All I would say is that on the one hand the Srebrenica genocide is an undisputed legal fact and on the other the existence of an extensive lesion that hasn't been formally diagnosed doesn't stop the identified disease being referred to by its name. Having said that, I share your frustration that the international courts have so far failed to prove the obvious, that genocide was perpetrated across Bosnia and Herzegovina as part of the same pattern and strategy. Opbeith ( talk) 23:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Support The Srebrenica genocide is fact, changing the article should be a simple task. This is not an opinion people, these are facts, why are you denying this fact with opposing the change of the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.157.156.102 ( talk) 15:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Support Its ridiculous that genocide deniers are still allowed to permeate their rubbish here. -- Harac ( talk) 10:54, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I find this debate completely ridiculous. This article should IMMEDIATELY be moved to Srebrenica GENOCIDE. THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL STATED THAT THIS EVENT WAS A GENOCIDE, WHY DO YOU CONTINUE DEBATING ON WETHER IT WAS OR NOT. I think stupid should be the right term to use when talking about those who are against this request of changing the name of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.219.75.2 ( talk) 18:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I just undid three reversions, two of which are blatant editorializations and one of which appeared to be a deletion for no reason. Let's save the arguments for the talk page, not for the article. Hzoi ( talk) 13:09, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
I suggest we mention in the intro that the 1995 Srebrenica genocide resulted in mass killings of 8,372 Bosniaks, including ethnic cleansing of 25,000-30,000 people. That's a fact, but it would make more sense to mention it in the introduction. Bosniak ( talk) 22:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, in Krstić judgment it was stated that this fact was decisive in determination of specific intent. When I find time I'll cite it. -- Harac ( talk) 10:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
The argument is summed up most succinctly in the Partial Dissenting Opinion of Judge Shahabuddeen, forming Part VIII of the ICTY Appeals Chamber finding. Shahabuddeen does not dissent with the Appeals Chamber's finding on genocide, he dissents from the finding that Krstic was not a principal perpetrator of genocide but only an aider and abettor.
The BBC report cited may have been confused regarding the argument whether the crime was one of deportation or forced transfer.
The above seems to me to be another cogent argument for a change in the title of the article to Srebrenica Genocide. The massacre, the forcible transfer of the women and younger children and the destruction of homes were component elements of the one planned act of genocide. Opbeith ( talk) 18:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
On the basis of the above I propose that the first sentence of the article now be reworded as follows:
As far as I can tell, the ICTY Krstic findings do not not specify the precise number of civilians who were the subject of forced (or forcible) transfer. I put the figure in brackets so that other people can provide the references to support this estimate, which finds fairly widespread acceptance.
The logical conclusion from all this is that Wikipedia should have a "Srebrenica Genocide" article which would absorb the content of the "Srebrenica Massacre" article. Opbeith ( talk) 19:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
And of course, bearing in mind that the date of the Appeals Chamber's judgment was 19 April 2004, what all the above also does is confirm that Gen. Lewis MacKenzie's article published in the Toronto Globe and Mail on July 14, 2005, under the title “The Real Story Behind Srebrenica“, was an act of genocide denial. Asserting that what he has to say is "The Real Story" MacKenzie dismisses the findings of the ICTY Appeals Chamber. See
Balkan Witness
Opbeith (
talk)
20:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Please allow me to respond to your half-truths excerpted from the genocide judgment. Why did Radislav Krstic forcibly transfer women and children? Did he do it to save them. The ICTY says NO.
31. As the Trial Chamber explained, forcible transfer could be an additional means by which to ensure the physical destruction of the Bosnian Muslim community in Srebrenica. The transfer completed the removal of all Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica, thereby eliminating even the residual possibility that the Muslim community in the area could reconstitute itself. The decision not to kill the women or children may be explained by the Bosnian Serbs’ sensitivity to public opinion. In contrast to the killing of the captured military men, such an action could not easily be kept secret, or disguised as a military operation, and so carried an increased risk of attracting international censure.
32. In determining that genocide occurred at Srebrenica, the cardinal question is whether the intent to commit genocide existed. While this intent must be supported by the factual matrix, the offence of genocide does not require proof that the perpetrator chose the most efficient method to accomplish his objective of destroying the targeted part. Even where the method selected will not implement the perpetrator’s intent to the fullest, leaving that destruction incomplete, this ineffectiveness alone does not preclude a finding of genocidal intent. The international attention focused on Srebrenica, combined with the presence of the UN troops in the area, prevented those members of the VRS [Bosnian Serb Army] Main Staff who devised the genocidal plan from putting it into action in the most direct and efficient way. Constrained by the circumstances, they adopted the method which would allow them to implement the genocidal design while minimizing the risk of retribution.
and
Thus, standing alone, forcible transfer is not genocide. But in this case the transfer did not stand alone, and that indeed is the basis on which the Appeals Chamber rejected the defence argument that it showed that there was no genocide. It was part – an integral part – of one single scheme to commit genocide, involving killings, forcible transfer and destruction of homes. In particular, it showed that the intent with which the killings were done was indeed to destroy the Srebrenica part of the Bosnian Muslim group. In my view, the judgment of the Appeals Chamber has to be understood as affirming that, by taking on the role of chief executor of the policy of forcible transfer - an inseparable element of the genocide - the appellant shared the intent of the Main Staff to commit the crime of genocide."
Bosniak ( talk) 03:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
PhilipBairdShearer, I'm not clear why you find a clarification by Judge Shahabuddeen unacceptable when it is clear that this is not the element of dissent from the majority. In any case, if you want a more explicit statement in a trial judgment perhaps the Blagojevic case Judgment will clarify the situation for you (Case No. IT-02-60-T / Date: 17 January 2005):
"674. The Trial Chamber is convinced that the criminal acts committed by the Bosnian Serb forces were all parts of one single scheme to commit genocide of the Bosnian Muslims of Srebrenica, as reflected in the “Krivaja 95” operation, the ultimate objective of which was to eliminate the enclave and, therefore, the Bosnian Muslim community living there. The forcible transfer was an integral part of this operation, which also included killings and destruction of properties. The Bosnian Serb forces separated the able-bodied men in Potocari, and captured those in the column heading to Tuzla, regardless of their military or civilian status. The separation of the men from the rest of the Bosnian Muslim population shows the intent to segregate the community and ultimately to bring about the destruction of the Bosnian Muslims of Srebrenica. The Bosnian Muslim men were stripped of their personal belongings and identification, detained, and finally taken to execution sites, where the Bosnian Serb forces deliberately and systematically killed them, solely on the basis of their ethnicity.
675. Immediately before and during these massacres, the remainder of the Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica was forcibly transferred to Bosnian Muslim-held territory. The forcible transfer of the women, children and elderly is a manifestation of the specific intent to rid the Srebrenica enclave of its Bosnian Muslim population. The manner in which the transfer was carried out – through force and coercion, by not registering those who were transferred, by burning the houses of some of the people, sending the clear message that they had nothing to return to, and significantly, through its targeting of literally the entire Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica, including the elderly and children – clearly indicates that it was a means to eradicate the Bosnian Muslim population from the territory where they had lived.
676. In such a context, the killings in Bratunac town were also a manifestation of this intent to destroy the group. It had an impact on the Bosnian Muslim group beyond the death of the men killed; it sent a message to the remaining members of the group of their fate – that they were at the mercy of the Bosnian Serbs and that their lives, too, could be taken at any moment.
677. The Trial Chamber has no doubt that all these acts constituted a single operation executed with the intent to destroy the Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica. The Trial Chamber finds that the Bosnian Serb forces not only knew that the combination of the killings of the men with the forcible transfer of the women, children and elderly, would inevitably result in the physical disappearance of the Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica, but clearly intended through these acts to physically destroy this group.
...
"706. The Trial Chamber recalls that the forcible transfer of women and children is an underlying act for two counts in the Indictment, namely Count 5 (inhumane acts) and Count 6 (persecutions). Additionally, as has been discussed above, the Trial Chamber observes that forcible transfer is a related underlying act for the charge of complicity in genocide.
707. It has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the women and children from the Srebrenica enclave were forcibly transferred to Kladanj on 12 and 13 July 1995."
...
"785. The Trial Chamber finds that Colonel Blagojevic knew of the principal perpetrators’ intent to destroy in whole or in part the Bosnian Muslim group as such. The Trial Chamber infers this knowledge from all the circumstances that surrounded the take-over of the Srebrenica enclave and the acts directed at the Bosnian Muslim population which followed. In particular, the Trial Chamber recalls:
- Colonel Blagojevic’s knew the goal of the Krivaja 95 operation, namely to create conditions for the elimination of the Srebrenica enclave
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that the Bosnian Muslim population in its entirety was driven out of Srebrenica town to Potocari
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that the Bosnian Muslim men were separated from the rest of the Bosnian Muslim population
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that the Bosnian Muslim women, children and elderly were forcibly transferred to non-Serb held territory
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that the Bosnian Muslim men were detained in inhumane conditions in temporary detention centres pending further transport
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that members of the Bratunac Brigade contributed to the murder of Bosnian Muslim men detained in Bratunac
- Colonel Blagojevic knew of and participated in an operation to search the terrain for the purpose of capturing and detaining Bosnian Muslim men, so as to prevent the men from “breaking through” to Tuzla or Kladanj, i.e., territory under the control of the Bosnian Muslims"
According to the ICTY the deportations/forcible transfers were part of the genocide. The Appeals Chamber reversed Blagojevic’s conviction for complicity in genocide on the basis that his knowledge of the forcible transfer operation, the separations, and the mistreatment and murders in Bratunac town were insufficient, to allow a finding of genocidal intent beyond reasonable doubt. The Appeal Chamber did not overthrow the Trial Chamber's judgment that "the criminal acts committed by the Bosnian Serb forces were all parts of one single scheme to commit genocide".
Opbeith ( talk) 00:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I added this info, update on the number of exhumed bodies as of May 1st: So far 6,006 bodies of Srebrenica genocide victims have been excavated from numerous mass graves, but the number is not final. See testimony of Dusan Janac and Dr. Thomas Parsons [15].
One of the survivors, Zarfa Turkovic , described the horrors of rapes as following: "Two [Serb soldiers] took her legs and raised them up in the air, while the third began raping her. Four of them were taking turns on her. People were silent, no one moved. She was screaming and yelling and begging them to stop. They put a rag into her mouth and then we just heard silent sobs…." See: (1) http://www.bookrags.com/highbeam/refugees-tell-of-women-singled-out-for-19950718-hb/ and (2) http://www.markdanner.com/articles/show/62#fn1 . Bosniak ( talk) 06:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Missouri House of Representatives passed resolution abotu the Srebrenica genocide. Here is a scanned copy of a document: | http://www.srebrenica95.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:rezolucija-missouri-kongresa&catid=4:vijesti&Itemid=86. Please include it in the article. Bosniak ( talk) 07:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
City of Saint Louis also issued proclamation about the Srebrenica genocide. Here is a scanned copy of the document | http://srebrenica95.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102:proklamacija-grada-st-louis-a-o-srebrenickom-genocidu&catid=44:vijesti&Itemid=86. Please include it in the article. Bosniak ( talk) 07:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Since this is a case of genocide, I suggest we rename the article to Srebrenica Genocide. I read the archive and earlier debates and voting process was flawed. Serb editors organized themselves and simply voted "NO," as they don't even accept the term - genocide. There should not be popularity votes and one ethnic group should not be allowed to outvote other ethnic group. We should simply do this by following facts. There was a genocide, more specifically Srebrenica genocide, so why there such a huge hesitation to call the genocide with its proper name? The title of the article should reflect that. I think that we don't need any voting process for such a simple, straightforward fact. Edina1979 ( talk) 19:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Edina, as you may have noticed by now - I recently renamed this article to Srebrenica Genocide, but the administrator undid my edit and warned me not to do it again. I applaud Ckatz's civilized response, but I don't understand what he meant by saying "many of the respondents opposing the movehad no connection to either ethnic background." If you go back and see who voted against the idea, it will become obvious to you that Serbs organized themselves to prevent the article being renamed to Srebrenica Genocide. They organized themselves, voted against it, and then abandoned this article. Now we are stuck with "Srebrenica Massacre" even though the International Criminal Tribunal refers to the event as Srebrenica Genocide (example: http://www.icty.org/sid/10124 ). Serbs/Serbians open all kinds of bogus articles, such as North Kosovo - a term that never existed, but was manufactured recently when Kosovo was forced to defend its sovereignity. They also came up with fake definitions, such as "Serpophobia" and spammed search engines to gain popularity of a non-existent word. When we tried to delete the article, Serbs outvoted us. However, when we opened an article titled Bosniakophobia, Serbs came back, outvoted us again, and deleted our article. Wikipedia is being run by popularity. If you have enough activists to outvote other editors, you can create all kinds of articles and promote all kinds of agendas, such as "Serpophobia" (I intentionally misspelled it, as I do not recognize this word), North Kosovo, and other non-existent, manufactured, imaginary words and subjects. *yawn* Bosniak ( talk) 00:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Support. I am tired of people who are denying that genocide took place in Srebrenica. It has been proven without a doubt, there no arguments to support the view that the article should remain nearly the Srebrenica massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.208.220.62 ( talk) 17:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Just a reminder from the Krstic Appeal Judgment, given on 19 April 2004, Case No. IT-98-33-A:
§37 "... The Appeals Chamber states unequivocally that the law condemns, in appropriate terms, the deep and lasting injury inflicted, and calls the massacre at Srebrenica by its proper name: genocide. ..."
Holy s**t you just discovered that the Tribunal sets the tone for the media? LOL! 09:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Opbeith ( talk) 21:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, this issue of the name by which the events that will be commemorated tomorrow is rather more complex and important than you appear willing to contemplate in your reversal. There has been extensive discussion of the matter here and elsewhere. The gradual acceptance and use of the term "Srebrenica genocide" in official and informal usage is a clear indication that there has been a change in public understanding. This was inevitable once the controversy over the issue of "genocide" was ended by the International Court of Justice decision in 2007. Actions such as the near unanimous adoption of the European Parliament Resolution clearly indicate that this change is widely accepted. Resolutions adopted by State assemblies in the US show that the change of designation is a global, not just European, trend. The discussions here show that many editors consider this is an important issue. The "simple" form of wording you want to retain fails to acknowledge this. Simplicity is certainly a virtue, but not when it obscures the real state of affairs. Opbeith ( talk) 09:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, you have reverted again while I was writing to the discussion page. My change was adequately explained in the header in which I referred in particular to the previous discussions. Your preferred wording is inadequate, indicating that the term "Srebrenica Genocide" is of subordinate rather than competing or greater importance. It is clear from the name change discussions that retaining the name "Srebrenica massacre" is in itself a simplification of the complex and changing real situation. The shortened form of words you prefer is more than "simple", it is "simplistic" and in the context embodies a point of view. Opbeith ( talk) 09:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Qutoing once again from the ICTY President Judge Theodor Meron's "Address on the Occasion of the 10th Anniversary of the Srebrenica Genocide" at [16], first quoting from the Krstic Appeal Judgment:
"The Appeals Chamber states unequivocally that the law condemns, in appropriate terms, the deep and lasting injury inflicted, and calls the massacre at Srebrenica by its proper name: genocide. Those responsible will bear this stigma, and it will serve as a warning to those who may in future contemplate the commission of such a heinous act.
These words of the Tribunal's Appeals Chamber are unmistakeable: the crimes that were committed here were not simply murders; they were targeted at a particular human group with the intent to destroy it. They were so heinous as to warrant the gravest of labels: genocide. It is our responsibility at the Tribunal to see that justice is done for those who lost their lives here, and that the people responsible for these unspeakable offences are tried and punished."
Meron repeats that the Appeals Chamber "calls the massacre at Srebrenica by its proper name: genocide" and emphasises that "These words of the Tribunal's Appeals Chamber are unmistakeable: the crimes that were committed here ... warrant the gravest of labels: genocide."
And yet Wikipedia not only denies the massacre "its proper name", it stands firm even against adequately acknowledging the weight of legal, institutional and informed public opinion. So if simplicity is to be our yardstick let's sum this all up quite simply as "Wikipedia denies genocide its proper name". Once all the argument and discussion is done, that's what it boils down to. Opbeith ( talk) 10:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&q=%22srebrenica%20genocide%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn Bosniak ( talk) 23:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree when people say that google gives more answers when using "massacre" than "genocide". One of the reasons is that the term Srebrenica Massacre has been used for a so long time here on Wikipedia and a lot of people, wanting to know wether it was a massacre or a genocide, don't bother about doing all the research and knowing all the facts, the just type srebrenica genocide in google and look at Wikipedia. If Wikipedia tells them it was a massacre, then it will be a massacre and it will stay massacre for longer and longer. People will start writing more and more articles, using the term "massacre", because Wikipedia told them it was the right one to use. People won't use the term "genocide", because Wikipedia told them it wasn't the right term to use. In my opinion, by following what was said the Internation Tribunal, this article should be changer for Srebrenica Genocide, and the google searches result would, not instantly but after some time, show an evident and superior use of the term "genocide" than the term "massacre". The wikipedia community should be ashamed to misinform the worldwide population who trusts it. MidobiM( talk)
New update on victims identified through the DNA analysis: http://www.ic-mp.org/press-releases/dna-results-of-the-international-commission-on-missing-persons-reveal-the-identity-of-6186-srebrenica-victims-dnk-izvjestaji-medunarodne-komisije-za-nestale-osobe-icmp-otkrili-identitete-6186-sreb/ Bosniak ( talk) 00:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Oric trial judgment makes it clear that Serb villages were heavily militarized and used to attack Bosniak villages and the town of Srebrenica:
"Between April 1992 and March 1993, Srebrenica town and the villages in the area held by Bosnian Muslims were constantly subjected to Serb military assaults, including artillery attacks, sniper fire, as well as occasional bombing from aircrafts. Each onslaught followed a similar pattern. Serb soldiers and paramilitaries surrounded a Bosnian Muslim village or hamlet, called upon the population to surrender their weapons, and then began with indiscriminate shelling and shooting. In most cases, they then entered the village or hamlet, expelled or killed the population, who offered no significant resistance, and destroyed their homes. During this period, Srebrenica was subjected to indiscriminate shelling from all directions on a daily basis. Potočari in particular was a daily target for Serb artillery and infantry because it was a sensitive point in the defence line around Srebrenica. Other Bosnian Muslim settlements were routinely attacked as well. All this resulted in a great number of refugees and casualties.... The fighting intensified in December 1992 and the beginning of January 1993, when Bosnian Muslims were attacked by Bosnian Serbs primarily from the direction of Kravica and Ježestica. In the early morning of the 7 January 1993, Orthodox Christmas day, Bosnian Muslims attacked Kravica, Ježestica and Šiljkovići. Convincing evidence suggests that the village guards were backed by the VRS [Bosnian Serb Army], and following the fighting in the summer of 1992, they received military support, including weapons and training. A considerable amount of weapons and ammunition was kept in Kravica and Šiljkovići. Moreover, there is evidence that besides the village guards, there was Serb and Bosnian Serb military presence in the area. "
I did not make the initial change back to "genocide denial" but "alternative views" is unacceptable. It was imposed in an exhausting exchange over a year ago and those opposed to its use did not accept the change, but gave up the battle in order to concentrate on other areas where more specific issues were being fought over.
The poorly substantiated opinions of Diane Johnstone, Lewis MacKenzie et al. have been refuted on numerous occasions. "Alternative views" can be used for a section reviewing about thoughtful appraisal of the findings by legal scholars and other authorities.
Genocide was found to have been perpetrated. If the bare truth is unpalatable, perhaps something like "Speculative or discredited challenges to the finding of genocide" adequately reflects the substance of the content. "Genocide denial" is what the stuff actually is. Opbeith ( talk) 09:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, Once again your neutrality avoids uncomfortable facts. You put your own gloss over all that passed previously here. You are not "neutral", as your remarks regarding Lewis MacKenzie demonstrate. You tend to summarise situations in a way that appears slanted towards allowing challenge to the judicially established reality of Srebrenica while showing an unwillingness to allow interventions that seek to assert that reality. That tendency is not neutrality.
For example, you assert that Lewis MacKenzie is not some wing-nut with an agenda, and if he has an opinion that differs from the court's, that is his right.
No-one has claimed that MacKenzie is a right-wing nut but he certainly has an agenda and there is a reasonable volume of evidence to support that argument that has been presented here on numerous occasions (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Srebrenica_massacre/Archive_11).
You choose to refer to one side only of the MacKenzie case. MacKenzie's agenda was adequately illustrated by Roy Gutman's investigation of the payment received for a lecture tour funded by a Serb lobby and MacKenzie's dissimulation before the US Congress Armed Services Committee on Balkan matters.
As it happens, MacKenzie, who was so notorious here for such a long time, was eventually removed. It's simply nonsense to suggest that the "alternative views" section, has tended to be edited fairly conservatively to ensure that only reputable opinions are included. Diana Johnstone remains, because we have spent our limited energy elsewhere.
Johnstone's genocide rebuttals and other misrepresentations have been refuted time after time, most prominently in the ITN/LM trial. The Serb rubbishing of the argument about mass graves has remained in spite of the evidence of thousands of identifications of bodies of victims mingled by reburial in mass graves. It's time these went. I know you will once again revert me if I simply intervene with a reasoned explanation.
There is no case for the retention of the references to the arguments about the number of victims or the secpticism about mass graves under "alternative views". I propose that either these references are removed or the section is renamed as what it is - views that deny the legal findings, i.e. "denial of the genocide". (The reference to the appropriate location for a mention of the role of the Serbian media is up for discussion.)
Anyone citing the textual references to the figure of 7000-8000 as supporting the case for questioning the number of victims without at the same time acknowledging the subsequent evidence substantiating the higher number can expect a challenge that they are wilfully misusing superseded evidence in order to challenge the findings.
If someone denies the fact of genocide they are a genocide denier. I don't see how you can get away from that fact and why you are so persistent in trying to avoid accepting what flows from the fact that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide, as confirmed by the highest instances of international law.
The debate is open to informed discussion of the legal principles applied by the court or to new evidence and that's all. In the notorious Globe and Mail article MacKenzie dismissed the argument that genocide was perpetrated at Srebrenica using arguments that had already been dismissed by the ICTY finding. He was denying the genocide.
Would you be so willing to accommodate the equal right to preservation of discredited statements about Lewis MacKenzie's views and conduct? Your resolute unwillingness to accept the substance of the finding of genocide has implications.
Please explain why you insist that "Genocide deniers", ... tends to suggest that it is fair game for any individual who happens to have an opinion". You dismiss the arguments of those of us who have an alternative view to yours on the subject of the genocide. I think that it is you who behind the screen of neutrality and authority is expressing an opinion on the subject of genocide denial. Opbeith ( talk) 23:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, I was expecting a more thorough response from you to Opbeith. I am not taking sides, but Opbeith has won all arguments on this page - fair and square. You may wish to go back and re-read his arguments. I know from my own experience, I could never understand ICTY judgments by reading them only once. I had to go back and spend considerable time until I understand fully what judges wanted to explain and why they arrived to that particular decision. If you read carefully what Opbeith said, then you may learn a lot. Don't put yourself in a situation to "gloss over" the facts without giving them necessary weight. Hope you understand. Do you? Thanks. Bosniak ( talk) 06:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
The issue of renaming the article, though I see it as arising from the same principle of acknowledging the substance of the issue, is a separate matter in which I accept that there are valid arguments on both sides, though of course I find one side of the argument more convincing. I would describe it as an argument of "emphasis on substance + weight of usage" versus "emphasis on weight of usage", in which the main issue is not disagreement on substance but disagreement over the "weight of usage" element.
Taking the position you do in that argument is not denying the substance of genocide, simply excluding it from the equation, which is a legitimate stance although I disagree with it. Any doubts I have as to your objectivity have to do with the way you appear reluctant to give adequate credit to the other argument's evidence, for example your disparaging reference to the near-unanimous opinion of the European Parliament.
When I remarked on "Your resolute unwillingness to accept the substance of the finding of genocide", I was not saying that you had ever refused to accept the court's findings. What I was saying was that you refuse to accept the implications of the ICTY and ICJ findings.
What is at issue in this particular discussion is not the matter of usage, it is the question of acknowledging or denying the genocide. The question, simply put, is: are you willing to accept that people who refuse to acknowledge the fact of the genocide, in the face of the established findings, can be described as denying the genocide? Opbeith ( talk) 07:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, you're quick to intervene but no sign of a response to a simple question. Opbeith ( talk) 19:33, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Opbeith ( talk) 22:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
The so called "evacuation" you point to was nothing more but a massive scale ethnic cleansing of 30,000 Bosniaks, which was integral part of the genocide. User Opbeith already quoted two paragraphs from the ICTY judgement. I take liberty to add two more:
Here is a detailed answer to this question directly from the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (Appeals Chamber, Prosecutor vs. Radislav Krstic):
31. As the Trial Chamber explained, forcible transfer could be an additional means by which to ensure the physical destruction of the Bosnian Muslim community in Srebrenica. The transfer completed the removal of all Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica, thereby eliminating even the residual possibility that the Muslim community in the area could reconstitute itself. The decision not to kill the women or children may be explained by the Bosnian Serbs’ sensitivity to public opinion. In contrast to the killing of the captured military men, such an action could not easily be kept secret, or disguised as a military operation, and so carried an increased risk of attracting international censure.
32. In determining that genocide occurred at Srebrenica, the cardinal question is whether the intent to commit genocide existed. While this intent must be supported by the factual matrix, the offence of genocide does not require proof that the perpetrator chose the most efficient method to accomplish his objective of destroying the targeted part. Even where the method selected will not implement the perpetrator’s intent to the fullest, leaving that destruction incomplete, this ineffectiveness alone does not preclude a finding of genocidal intent. The international attention focused on Srebrenica, combined with the presence of the UN troops in the area, prevented those members of the VRS [Bosnian Serb Army] Main Staff who devised the genocidal plan from putting it into action in the most direct and efficient way. Constrained by the circumstances, they adopted the method which would allow them to implement the genocidal design while minimizing the risk of retribution. Bosniak ( talk) 01:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
You're hiding important facts, and therefore you make this article biased. Serbs did evacuate many civilians in the area by organizing trucks rides. Serbs provided a way for civilians to escape. You should know that Srebrenica was used by Naser Oric to attack Serbs. the proof that this article is pro-Bosnian bias is that it negates the suffering and killings of Serb civilians. Rex Dominator ( talk) 02:02, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Rex Dominator, you do not answer the points made in response to your original comment. Opbeith ( talk) 09:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The statement doesn't dismiss the event of Serbs evacuating woman and children via buses from Srebrenica. It argues that this "could [have] be[en]" a part of the genocide. The statement, whoever made it during the process, is simply a claim, and does not have within it any evidence. To quote, "forcible transfer could be", it doesnt mean that it is. Rex Dominator ( talk) 06:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Rex Dominator, I suggest you go back and read the Court's findings. You've ignored the passages from the Trial Chamber's Judgement that I quoted above:
and
Bosniak's quotations are from the Appeal Chamber's deliberations considering the appeal against the finding of genocide. At this point the Appeal Chamber is looking at the Defence argument cited in the previous paragraph 30: "The Defence argues that the VRS decision to transfer, rather than to kill, the women and children of Srebrenica in their custody undermines the finding of genocidal intent".
The Appeal Chamber considers the Defence's suggestion and then says that the cardinal question is whether the intent to commit genocide existed. And although the forcible transfer does not constitute in and of itself (i.e. in isolation) a genocidal act, the Appeal Chamber confirms that the Trial Chamber was entitled to rely on it as evidence of the genocidal intentions of members of the VRS Main Staff" (which may be inferred, among other facts, from evidence of other culpable acts systematically directed against the same group).
So it was argued that the forcible transfer might not have been evidence of genocide. And the Appeal Chamber then said that the Trial Chamber was right to consider that it was.
Your linguistic hypotheses don't take us anywhere outside the Appeal Chamber's finding that genocide was in fact perpetrated at Srebrenica. Your "evacuation", the Court's "forcible transfer", was accepted as evidence of genocidal intent and hence of genocide. I suggest you read the relevant section of the Trial Chamber's and Appeal Chamber's findings before speculating any further. Opbeith ( talk) 11:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Yugo91aesop, you seem to be suggesting that Srebrenica was not under siege? You seem to imply that the Serbs were not engaged in military operations in the conduct of that siege? You seem to be suggesting that the fate of the inhabitants of Zvornik and Visegrad was irrelevant to the situation in Srebrenica? Mladic did not allow anything. What he did do was maintain a refugee population in a state of hunger and fear until the time when he believed that the international community would allow him to get away with eliminating it. Opbeith ( talk) 10:57, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
As with most statistics about the Srebrenica Genocide, the list is not final. Note: Srebrenica victims are subsequently buried in Srebrenica - Potocari Memorial and Cementery. As of 2009, more then 3700 DNA identified victims are buried there. Memorial Center of Potocari ( September 2009): 3749 victims already buried,
of them - children: 13,5 - 14 years old: 5 14 y. old: 10 15 y. old: 37 16 y. old: 65 17 y. old: 93 ------------- total: 210
Federal Commission for Missing Persons; "Preliminary List of Missing and Killed in Srebrenica"; 2005
[17]
Regards, 77.240.177.27 ( talk) 08:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC) Kutil
Oh dear, why did you put a huge list of names here? This is inappropriate. Rndxcl ( talk) 08:34, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Milorad Trbic has been found guilty on one count of genocide and sentenced to 30 years in jail. I have updated this information in the article. For more info, look it up here: http://www.bim.ba/en/188/10/22954/ . Bosniak ( talk) 19:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Harac for updating it. Bosniak ( talk) 03:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Not beginning - I'm moving the Helsinki group to the bottom. Boeremoer ( talk) 17:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Bosniak ( talk) 20:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
icty-july05
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
Your point being?
I see no reason to stop improving the introduction simply because it has been edited before. Of course, if the same arguments reappear, we have to take a look at archived discussions. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 13:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
The definition of atrocity is: an appalling or atrocious act, especially an act of unusual or illegal cruelty inflicted by an armed force on civilians or prisoners. This would seem a rather apt description of the Srebrenica Massacre. Yet, it is objected to. Would the Srebrenica Massacre need to be more unusual or more illegal or more cruel in order to qualify as an atrocity? The word atrocity is used in wikipedia in other articles to describe... well... atrocities. But it is objected to here. Fairview360 ( talk) 05:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
It is quite unfortunate that discussions on this article have become increasingly predictable. Thus, before making this edit to quote of the judgment of ICJ, I had to go through the judgment itself to see if and how often the Court uses that term (atrocity) in relation to situation that it characterizes as genocide, or to other acts of "lesser" degree. Needless to say it does quite often (19 times), but mostly in relation to Srebrenica. I am reverting the edit. Regards, -- Harac ( talk) 21:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Apparently there are still people who do not think it was genocide, so instead of putting forward decisions both of ICTY, ICJ, ECHR, Bosnian and German courts, it was decited that these two should be enough since they represent the highest courts of their kind in the world, although there are views (see above) for it to be edited. Regards, -- 195.130.46.162 ( talk) 09:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys,
I've just started a sandbox for the intro (actually it's just a user-subpage, which Wikipedia recommends as the easiest way to sandbox), it's located here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jonathanmills/Srebrenica_Massacre_sandbox
As you'll see, I've requested that the actual 'sandboxing' be done halfway down the page, just so we can have 'reference' copies of the current intro and my (very tentative) first draft.
Will probably make more sense to discuss changes rather than actually doing them, or we won't be able to easily see what the suggestions (and/or bones of contention) are.
Rather annoyingly, you can't 'add section' on the subpages, so just have to edit the whole page and add to the bottom, but oh well.
Anyway, I'll just post what I've got over there at the moment as my 'first stab':
Just want to emphasise that I'm not trying to cause trouble here; I'm more than happy to discuss/change any of this. Over at the sandbox I've saved the pieces of info I removed entirely; while I wouldn't necessarily argue that any of it is irrelevant, I'm trying to pare things down to the bare essentials, which is what an intro should be. Cheers Jonathanmills ( talk) 16:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Right, but I think putting a long quote from a judge into a footnote (rather than having it as a whole paragraph in the intro) would just be good practice in terms of readability. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that what I wrote was a *first edit*, which I am more than happy to change in response to editors' input. Jonathanmills ( talk) 22:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Well, then, why did you respond the way you did to the fact that (some of) the details were indeed incorrect? In any event, I'm happy to take your points on board in my second draft. Jonathanmills ( talk) 22:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) It's not informative at all as to the general events of the massacre. All it says is that VRS troops 'stripped the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them'.
I'm also not sure why you'd describe me as a 'novice editor', as I've been on and off this page for over two years now. In any event, it shouldn't matter whether I came on here yesterday or ten years ago, but rather the quality of my points. Jonathanmills ( talk) 22:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey guys, please stop fighting about who said what when, this is not very entertaining for other editors. Let us focus on improving the intro. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 22:05, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Most of those 624 victims were soldiers.Since when are soldiers counted as "victims".Btw Bosnian Serbs soldiers were responsible of numerous warcrimes and genocide.--
(GriffinSB) (
talk)
17:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Military deaths shouldn't stand in the same group with civilan deaths at all.Cause it helps to inflate the number of Serbs killed in the area.119 civilians were killed there in a course of 3 years.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 11:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi all,
I don't know exactly whether this is a no-no as such (in my view, it shouldn't really matter, as long as the info is accurate -- and accurately referenced -- and is NPOV), but I thought it ought to be brought to editors' attention: when I was looking for some info online, I clicked through the 'Srebrenica Genocide Blog' (published, I believe, by User:Bosniak) and noted a startling similarity to our article.
See, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre#Dispute_regarding_Serb_casualties_around_Srebrenica
and compare it to:
http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2008/07/grossly-inflated-numbers-of-serb.html
Like I say, I'm not sure if this matters as such (although I have a number of problems with the info itself, particularly in its presentation), but it seemed to warrant a mention.
Cheers Jonathanmills ( talk) 00:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
:Mike Babic, only 400+ Serbs died around Srebrenica (Podrinje, including Bratunac that doesnt belong to Srebrenica), 80% of them soldiers who murdered Muslim children. ICTY did not say that 1200 Serbs were killed, if you read their Press Release carefully, they were criticizing the book by Srebrenica genocide denier Milivoje Ivanisevic, so they said "Ivanisevic" alleged 1200 Serbs died, which does not meet reality. Read press release carefully before making rush conclussions. You have no credibility, even your Wikipedia profile page justifies Srebrenica genocide. Bosniak ( talk) 07:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Quick note for Mike Babic: Here is a fake picture of non-existend Serb "victim" around Srebrenica submitted by Milivoje Ivanisevic to justify Srebrenica genocide fake photo Bosniak ( talk) 08:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
: RDC database has been evaluated by ICTY experts and it is the most accurate info about the victims in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Bosniak ( talk) 07:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Well, the ICTY's opinion on the RDC should certainly be included; my objection is to using the RDC's own description of itself, ie 'non-partisan, non-governmental' etc. I think it is misleading, given the facts behind the setting up of the RDC. Jonathanmills ( talk) 18:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Mondeo, I copied information from WIKIPEDIA and included it in my blog. Therefore, the similarity. Bosniak ( talk) 08:02, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
We shouldn't really care about Mike Babic's opinion on warcrimes issues because he denies the Dubrovnik siege and it's destruction on his users page.--
(GriffinSB) (
talk)
10:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Source: REUTERS (Please incorporate it into the article) About 5,800 victims of Srebrenica Genocide have been identified through DNA analysis, but they can be reburied only after 70 percent of the bodily remains have been identified. Bosnian Serbs first buried the bodies near the execution sites but then dug out many of them with bulldozers and reburied remains in secondary mass graves in an attempt to hide the crime. Bosniak ( talk) 07:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
PS: Maybe we should create a short sub-section called "Forensic Evidence" or "DNA Evidence" and include information about DNA and forensic identification of Srebrenica genocide victims? Bosniak ( talk) 08:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
We should also create a sub-section about the Nato,Imperialist,Zionist,Vatican-Ustashi-Al-qaida Anti-Serb propaganda it should be called “Serbian truth” – a term used by Serbs themselves to refer to lying.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 12:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to discuss.
The Srebrenica Genocide, mostly known as the Srebrenica Massacre,[1][2][3][4] was the killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in the region of the town Srebrenica in eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina in July 1995.The Genocide was commited by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of Republika Srpska's chief commander General Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, at least one paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre.[5][6].In 1993 Srebrenica became a UN-protected "safe area" due to horrible condition the Bosniak polulation surrounded by Serbs was in.Srebrenica was besieged and it's population was exposed to starvation and constant shelling for 3 years.However UN did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.[7] After reviewing a comprehensive report, the Dutch government resigned over this matter in 2002. The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II.[8]
Yes,i also wanted to change te title of the article since the genocide in Srebrenica has been established by ICTY and ICJ. The point of calling it massacre is outdated and should be upda6ted to genocide.We can not spread false information in the article simply because there are more hits on the net that call it massacre.We go with the time.Only offical and legal facts and findings should be incorporated into the article and not the personal assumptions.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 16:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Off course it's both a massacre and genocide.But it's LEGAL status is genocide.With your kind of logic we should rename the article about the actor Henry Winkler into Fonzie simply 'cause people know him best for his role as Fonzie in the series Happy Days? Lol -- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 17:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys. Griffin, you either don't understand or don't care about what the rules are for naming articles on Wikipedia. Please read the page on 'naming conventions', specifically "Use the most easily recognized name" and "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic_creation#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name). Given that the term 'the Srebrenica genocide' is used by less than 1000 webpages (outside blogs) as opposed to some 35,000 for 'the Srebrenica massacre', as I demonstrated above, it is actually a complete fudge to even include it as an 'alternate common name'. The idea that the article should actually be CALLED 'The SG' is simply losing all touch with Wikipedia style rules.
As for the rest of your intro draught, no offence, but I don't think it flows well, it still doesn't give any description of the actual event in question, and it is also hopelessly biased in tone (if you're going to detail the suffering of Srebrenica before the massacre in the intro, I'm not sure why Serb casualties shouldn't be mentioned there either, as Mike Babic attempted to do; also you appear to have no grasp of encyclopaediac style -- "Srebrenica became a UN-protected "safe area" due to horrible condition the Bosniak polulation surrounded by Serbs was in" is simply childish in tone). Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Search for Un records and general Morrillion and his discription of the situation in Srebrenica in 1993 and why it became a save-haven.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 22:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Your are right about both sources.They are extremly biased.slobodan milosevic.org is runned by milosevic's defence team and intelligence officers.to me that says enough about their "neutrality".There is also video footage from Srebrenica(1993).People were starving.But one question always crosses my mind when talking about these issues.Why do Serbs deny EVERY SINGLE CRIME they commited?Isn't that stupid and pointless?-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 06:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC) BTW.What do you mean childish?Isn't it a fact that Srebrenica was surrounded by Serbian forces for three years?Also didn't the UN food convoys have trouble getting to Srebrenica because of the Serbian forces there?-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 13:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Perhaps the tone of my contribution was a little harsh, for which I apologise, but I stand by my statement that Griffin's argument that the page ought to be named 'the SG' reflects either an ignorance of, or a lack of respect for, Wikipedia naming conventions.
As for my contention that it 'does not describe the event', this is following on from previous discussion; ie that IMO the intro clearly needs more info about the event itself. As it stands, apart from learning that ~8000 Bosniak men and boys were killed in the region of Srebrenica in July 1995 by VRS units, we know nothing. Were the 8000 lined up in one giant line and slaughtered? How did it happen? (we haven't even pointed out that the VRS overran the enclave). Why was it simply 'men and boys'? We need to write for readers who know little or nothing about the event. Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Er... see 'Problem/s with the lead', above, as well as all the subsequent contributions on the topic. Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi all,
Does anyone actually object to the following change/s?
(Current version)
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time. After reviewing a comprehensive report, the Dutch government resigned over this matter in 2002.
(My draft)
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 7,000-8,000+ Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) men and boys in and around the town of Srebrenica, Bosnia by units of the Bosnian Serb Army (VRS) led by General Ratko Mladić during the 1992-1995 Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.
I've said previously that I think the stuff about the Dutch peacekeepers might fit better into a proposed second paragraph summarising the actual events of the massacre, but it makes sense to keep the info up for now; I've also argued that IMO the Scorpions' involvement is a) not important enough to include in the intro (and is a little misleading, as it potentially implies an unproven link to the Serbian state), and b) might work better in the para mentioning Serbian responsibility etc, BUT I'm OK with leaving it in for the sake of moving things forward.
The improvements (as I see it) are:
The numbers more accurately reflect RS opinion (as I pointed out a few weeks back, we see 7000, 8000 and a bit over 8000 as casualty figures in RS's);
It clarifies a few terms, ie 'Bosniaks', 'Srebrenica', 'VRS', 'Bosnia and Herzegovina', '1992-1995 Bosnian War' for an English-speaking audience not expert in the subject -- which is who Wikipedia is meant to be for;
It drops the irrelevant info about the resignation of the Dutch government -- although if anyone strongly objects, I don't mind re-including it.
NOTE: I changed the phrase 'under the command of Mladic' to 'led by Mladic' -- this is not intended as any political point, but rather to make a more readable sentence. However, if there is any particular objection here (and I intend to retain the hyperlink to 'command responsibility'), again, I'm not particularly worried about leaving it as is.
Any feedback from other editors? Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) Oh, OK! A misunderstanding then.
As for Reliable Sources estimating 7000, or rather numbers with a base of 7000, here are a few:
Encyclopaedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/561873/Srebrenica
LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/24/world/fg-karadzic24
Radio Netherlands: http://www.rnw.nl/internationaljustice/tribunals/ICTY/080712-srebrenica-genocide-mc
AFP, quoting the White House (although I'm not sure whether they ought to count as a 'reliable source'! ;-) http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jiCB5U0t0v49S4eZYLSWj5SFA_pA
Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/17/AR2007071701733_pf.html
United Nations: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=21672&Cr=ICJ&Cr1
NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/world/europe/22hague.html
Human Rights Watch: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2005/07/10/legacy-srebrenica
BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/675945.stm
The Times (UK): http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article529329.ece
RFE/RL: http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1059762.html
And, for good measure, while it's not an RS...
Srebrenica Genocide Blog: http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/dragan-nikolic-in-pre-trial.html
Actually, I've just done a news-item search for 'srebrenica' and '7000' and there are plenty of RS mentions, see here: http://news.google.co.uk/archivesearch?q=srebrenica+7,000&as_ldate=2006&as_hdate=2008&scoring=n&hl=en&um=1&nav_num=100 (scroll down for more recent results). Jonathanmills ( talk) 00:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Jonathanmills ( talk) 00:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) I'm not trying to be argumentative here, honestly, but "What it means when an article states "more than" or "at least" is that they are not giving an estimate"... huh? Of course they're giving an estimate! As I pointed out, it would be logically true to say that 'more than 100' died at Srebrenica, but it would be absurdly misleading. 'At least' or 'more than' estimates are taken from the number which they *estimate* to be the lowest likely (or possible) number.
As for the 'demonstration' you refer to, I'm still not sure how this negates the examples I've given which do cite 7000 as a base number... however, I'll say again that I am not too concerned about keeping the current formulation of 'estimated 8000'. I'm going to reply to Mondeo on this point too, so see below. Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
FV, my point is, some of my refs were NOT two or three years old, and included some pretty important ones, like Encyclopaedia Britannica. Some are indeed from this year: that link I provided to the Google search gave several RS examples. SO, I don't see why the admitted fact that *most* current articles cite 8000 makes this completely irrelevant. As for the idea that 'at least [number]' is somehow not an estimate, indeed, there is not much more one can say, but it's not important for the moment I guess. Are you OK with the rest of the modifications if 'estimated 8000' is retained? Jonathanmills ( talk) 13:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Re JMs draft: I think this is much better, more to the point. The role of Scorpions can be included in a new paragraph below. The fact that a Dutch cabinet resigned is perhaps not important enough to be included in the intro at all. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 15:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Re numbers (which actually need to be treated more thoroughly in the body of the article): Research by Norwegian demography experts reached an estimate of 7,500: (ref tag) Research by Brunborg, H., Lyngstad, T.H. and Urdal, H. (2003): Accounting for genocide: How many were killed in Srebrenica? European Journal of Population, 19(3):229-248. reaches a conservative estimate of at least 7,475 killed, while their likely estimate is 7,536. Brunborg et al. finds 76 male victims under 16 years of age, 629 male victims over 60, and a total of 48 female victims. (ref tag) Authoritative estimates are then in the interval 7500-8500. It is then fair to write "estimated 8,000" (and provide details in a footnote as well as in a separate section), and in my opinion 7,000-8,000+ is clumsy and perhaps ambiguous. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 15:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I think that tinkering with the article in this manner will complicate things more, especially since it deals primarily with stylistic editing (which is inevitably subjective), rather than with anything substantive. Additionally, it is even more confusing - isn't it that "estimated 8000" is more accurate than "7000-8000 + ", which could mean pretty much anything (especially when you have enough backing for the first figure anyway). Also, some other issues: For example, in "town of Srebrenica, Bosnia...", should there be a "," after "Bosnia"?; also you can not say "Bosnia", you have to go with "Bosnia and Herzegovina", or accepted abbreviation... I think more time should be spent on unreferenced parts of the article (I have a lot of material, but not time currently, so I'll return to that), than on paragraph to paragraph discussions on phraseology. Regards, -- Harac ( talk) 20:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
1. No serious (ie, Western, non-Serb, non-Russian, non-Greek) source today says the sumber of people killed in Srebrenica in 1995 is below 8,000.
2. Jonatham, you must bear in mind that the negation of “Bosnia” as a name and as a country is part of the Greater Serbian ideology of Slobodan Milosevic et caterva. Just look at this quote from the mastermind of massacre Ratko Mladic:
“ | I was born in what was called Old Herzegovina. Bosnia and Herzegovina was an artificial creation of the Communist system and before that in the Austrian Empire. We Serbs reject the term ‘ Bosnia.’ We are Serbs and we know who we are. | ” |
The source is this 1994 article from the New York Times.
It has been made perfectly clear to JM that the proper name of the country of which Srebenica is a part is "Bosnia and Herzegovina", and yet he wants to take up reams of editorial discussion quibbling that it ought to state "Bosnia" instead of "Bosnia and Herzegovina". The current article emphasizes Gen. Mladic's command responsibility by correctly stating the troops were "under the commmand of General Ratko Mladic", and yet JM again wants to take up other editor's time quibbling over changing it to "led by General Ratko Mladic". JM issues petty complaints about an editor participating in the discussion as if that is remarkable and then complains about quibbling. No wonder there are those who are dismissive of him. The relevance of this, that which is not simply a matter of quibbling, is that JM proposes that if editors do not engage him on the discussion pages, that is tacit approval for his suggested edits when in fact some editors do not engage him either because they consider his suggestions foolish or do not consider JM a credible editor. Fairview360 ( talk) 00:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Fairview360 has a lot more patience than I would with Jonathanmills's interventions. There is something inconsistent about claiming ignorance as a preface to suggesting controversial amendments or alternatively producing masses of evidence to contest a generally accepted position. Specifically there is no authoritative basis for retreating from a minimum figure of 8000.
Most recently the European Parliament resolution of 15 January 2009 adopted by 556 elected representatives of the population of the democratic nations of the European, opposed by 9, with 22 abstentions stated that "more than 8000 Muslim men and boys ... were summarily executed by Bosnian Serb forces".
There is no legitimate case for mentioning any figure below 8000. Further attempts to tie up editors' time in this way should not be given the time of day and it should be reasonable and not "ad hominem" to question the motives of the proposer. This is not a game. Opbeith ( talk) 17:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
International Commission for Missing Persons, who previously were prepared to say that 8000 people had died at Srebrenica, have now adjusted their estimate upward to 8100. The Potocori Memorial Site list 8373 names of victims. Let's call a halt to all the time-wasting, to give it a polite name. Kathryne Bomberger, Director of ICMP, has described wilful obfuscation of the numbers in a rather less gentle way:
I don’t know if this information should be added to a “later developments” section in the article, but anyway, here it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.52.93.153 ( talk) 14:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The paragraph on "serb genocide defenders" is about activism, not about alternative views on the event itself (it is in the wrong section and perhaps it also gives to much prominence to fringe groups). I have moved the paragraph here for further discussion:
Serb genocide supporters on Facebook In December 2008, young Serbian ultra-nationalists set up the Facebook group The Knife, The Wire, Srebrenica ( Serbian: Nož-Žica-Srebrenica), which celebrates genocide committed in Srebrenica and general Ratko Mladić. The 1000-member group was set up for all those who think that Muslims are best on the spit and while swimming in sulphur acid. (ref tag)Reuters - Bosnians want Serb group shut down on Facebook [1](ref tag end)(ref tag)Radio Free Europe - Skandalozno tolerisanje nacionalizma na Facebook-u [2](ref tag end). In reaction "Society for Threatened Peoples", a non-governmental human rights organization from Bosnia and Herzegovina, made an appeal to the administrators of Facebook to shutdown the controversial group(ref tag) "Zatvoriti Facebook grupu 'Nož-Žica-Srebrenica'", at Sarajevo-x.com ( 12-11- 2008). Retrieved on 12-11- 2008(ref tag end), as well as an opposite group with over 14.000 members(ref) Facebook group "CLOSE GROUP NOZ ZICA SREBRENICA!"(ref tag). The group was removed by Facebook administrator on December 11, with new one being created in its absence(ref) (New) Facebook group "Noz Zica Srebrenica(ref tag end)(ref tag)Deutsche Welle - Facebook zatvorio grupu "Nož, žica, Srebrenica" [3](ref tag end). (paragraph ends)
Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 13:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mondeo ( talk • contribs) 13:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Although it could also be placed in the "Post-war developments", I think it is appropriate for it to be a subsection of alternative views (which it is obviously). Regards, -- Harac ( talk) 14:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
It's not marginal group at all. All media in Bosnia and Herzegovina reported about the group, police was informed. OHR - International Community Representative in Bosnia also made a statement about the group. A thousand people from the group is calling for another genocide on Bosniaks. It's all but marginal. Journalist 007 ( talk) 18:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Sources about FB incident:
Journalist 007 ( talk) 18:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
If you are sourcing Srebrenica genocide blog in your above comment, then better spend some time and read it before you trash my research. At least I am in touch with Srebrenica NGOs and know the situation on the ground better than you, so stop misusing factual information from my blog in your dicussion. As for the number of victims, they are 8,372 (not 8,373 as you claimed) and that's a preliminary list from the Federal Commission. I have requested they sent me updated list of victims in PDF. You're quoting sources that meet your pre-defined conclussions trying to use description "7,000 to 8,000" which is wrong. The only correct term for Srebrenica genocide intro is "at least 8,000". Want sources? How about CNN? http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/22/srebrenicia.feature/index.html "At least 8,000 Muslim men, boys slain when Serbs overran UN safe haven. If you are going to use my blog in your discussion, at least use proper data which you can find here http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2007/12/srebrenica-numbers-quick-facts.html Bosniak ( talk) 20:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The Missing Persons list currently posted at the Potocari Memorial Site http://www.potocarimc.ba/memorijalni_eng/favorite.htm numbers the missing presumed dead from 1.HAJRUDIN ABDURAHMANOVIĆ, aged 50, to 8373. ALIJA ŽIVALJ, aged 64. This list is almost certainly incomplete, given the various problems that have been referred to here from time to time in the past, including the wiping out of entire families leaving no-one to report the deaths. Opbeith ( talk) 23:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi all,
Just wanted to bring attention back to my proposed first-para changes (and yes, they are pretty minor, but I'm taking one thing at a time):
(Current version)
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time. After reviewing a comprehensive report, the Dutch government resigned over this matter in 2002.
(My draft)
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) men and boys in and around the town of Srebrenica, Bosnia by units of the Bosnian Serb Army (VRS) led by General Ratko Mladić during the 1992-1995 Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.
And, to repeat myself for clarity, I've said previously that I think the stuff about the Dutch peacekeepers might fit better into a proposed second paragraph summarising the actual events of the massacre, but it makes sense to keep the info up for now; I've also argued that IMO the Scorpions' involvement is a) not important enough to include in the intro (and is a little misleading, as it potentially implies an unproven link to the Serbian state), and b) might work better in the para mentioning Serbian responsibility etc, BUT I'm OK with leaving it in for the sake of moving things forward.
So..does anyone have any objections to this draft? I'll leave it here for discussion, but if nobody responds (don't worry, I'll leave it at least a week or so), I'll assume it's OK to proceed. Jonathanmills ( talk) 19:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
The name of the country is "Bosnia and Herzegovina". "Led by" is a vague term open to more than one interpretation. "Under the command of" is specific and the term used in the ICTY context. Opbeith ( talk) 23:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
For some reason FV objects to my formulation 'BSRoS', preferring 'RoS'. There appear to be two issues here:
1. Does the term need explaining, or is the hyperlink enough?
2. Is it fair to call the RoS 'Bosnian Serb'?
Regarding point (1), I think the following information should be sufficient: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OBVIOUS#State_the_obvious
State facts that may be obvious to you, but are not necessarily obvious to the reader. Usually, such a statement will be in the first sentence or two of the article. For example, consider this sentence:
"The Ford Thunderbird was conceived as a response to the Chevrolet Corvette and entered production for the 1955 model year."
Here no mention is made of the Ford Thunderbird's fundamental nature: it is an automobile. It assumes that the reader already knows this—an assumption that may not be correct, especially if the reader is not familiar with Ford or Chevrolet.
Now, if Wikipedia recommends explaining that a Ford Thunderbird is a car, there can be no doubt that 'Republica Srpska' demands an explanation (note that hyperlinks do not obviate the need for description). So we move to point (2).
Now, if you look up 'Republica OR republic Srpska' in Google news, it is standard for English-language RS's to refer to the RoS as 'Bosnian Serb' (or some variation thereof); here are just a few examples from a quick search:
http://www.rferl.org/content/Facebook_Row_Exposes_Fragility_Of_Balkans_CeaseFire/1360334.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2008/12/14/ethnic_divisions_fester_in_bosnia/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7742233.stm
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8a19e86e-c26d-11dd-a350-000077b07658.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSLL60202620081124
I'd actually be a bit surprised if there were any decent English-language source which *didn't* describe the Republica Srpska in that way whenever it was mentioned. (Note that, even if I'm wrong there, and there are instances of alternative definitions, it seems pretty clear that the above is standard, given that I literally checked all the first references from my search). Jonathanmills ( talk) 18:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
If there is a need to clarify even with hyperlink, it is enough to put a prefix "B&H entity" before it and hyperlink it (if they do not know what Bosnia and Herzegovina is and what entity is it is possible that they would not know what Bosnian Serb is also, a term usually not accepted by Serbs themselves - if that is relevant). More legally, saying that is it a Bosnian Serb entity is wrong since no entity is a property of an ethnic group. Constitution of RS itself states that is it an entity of Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats etc. Regards, -- Harac ( talk) 21:18, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
(rev indent) For the record, I did not intend to promote Serb-nationalist aims in my use of the word 'statelet' (I erroneously believed the word implied some sort of unofficial nature, rather than just small size). On the other hand, given that FV (along with most other editors here) are almost certainly partisans of the Bosniak-nationalist goal of fully integrating the Republika Srpska into Bosnia-Herzegovina, I fail to see how such a stance on my part would make me unfit to edit this page on the grounds of bias (which appears to be the intimation). Jonathanmills ( talk) 16:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
"Bosnian Serb Republic of Srpska" is a jumbled bunch of words which in and of itself is not going to help the novice reader. How is the novice reader supposed to know what all that means? What part of that is the actual title? Is it all one title "Bosnian Serb Republic of Srpska"? Does it mean that it belongs to Bosnian Serbs? Is it only for Bosnian Serbs? And where is it? Is it seperate from Bosnia? Near Bosnia? Part of Bosnia? Saying it is an entity within Bosnia and Herzegovina is helpful, understandable to the novice reader, and accurate. Not only is "Bosnian Serb Republic of Srpska" confusing, the prefix Bosnian Serb presents RS as a possession of one ethnic group when in fact RS has three constituent peoples: Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks. The RS legislature has Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks. And according to the constitution of RS all consituent peoples have equal rights. While the prefix Bosnian Serb can be intrepreted as possessive (as in the Cartright Farm) saying "predominantly Serb" would be descriptive, not possessive, and understandable to the novice reader. But again, for the truly novice reader the starting point is that the RS is an entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina not that it is majority Serb. If the reader knows that RS is majority Serb but doesn't know where it is, the reader is going to be confused. Fairview360 ( talk) 05:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
It is important to bear in mind that in a situation of conflict the precise meaning of words is often the subject of dispute and wilful disregard of the political implications of the language used is likely to imply partiality as well as possibly leading the novice reader into difficulties. The novice reader may not be aware of the sensitivity of a partiocular issue but no editor of a reputable reference work would seek to offload judgment onto a popularity poll of non-specialists. Reputable sources are liable to publish misleading material where they are insufficiently aware of complex issues. I doubt very much whether Wikipedia require editors to abandon their judgment. In the context of the sensitivity of Republika Srpska's name and ethnic composition any descriptive adjectives should be chosen very carefully or avoided.
The point of hyperlinks is to take the novice reader to an explanation of an unfamilar term or object. The Wikipedia article on Republika Srpska (not "Republic of Srpska") is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska. Opbeith ( talk) 00:18, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I’ve just read it on Radio Free Europe:
“ | The Belgrade daily ‘ Politika’ recently published a feuilleton by Serbian nationalist ideologue Dobrica Cosic claiming that former Bosnian Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic was responsible for the massacre of Muslims at Srebrenica. ‘During the brutal war in Bosnia,’ Cosic asserts, ‘only the Bosnian Serb military command behaved with honor and chivalry.’ | ” |
Maybe this kind of declaraion, made in 2008, could be put on the article, too.-- BalkanWalker ( talk) 03:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Dobrica Cosic, who killed people with his “pen” and “academic” dishonesty, is still spreading hatred. Sad, indeed. Bosniak ( talk) 01:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
"According to a DutchBat witness, several women who entered the compound handed their malnourished babies to DutchBat members 'because they just didn't know anymore what to do and what their future would bring.' This witness also testified that several times babies were thrust into his arms 'which were so swollen that they finally died.' Another DutchBat witness testified that a total of 11 people died in the DutchBat compound, among whom were children who died of dehydration. It was estimated that the refugees would survive only three or four days under the prevailing conditions." Trial Judgment: Blagojević & Jokić (IT-02-60)
Hi Bosniak (and others),
The reason I removed that reference again is because it is in Serbo-Croat/Bosnian, and there's no way an English speaker can work out whether those names listed are indeed part of the Bosnian govt's 'Missing or Killed' list, which is what the sentence indicates. The other thing is that it footnotes the entire sentence: The Preliminary List of People Missing or Killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Bosnian Federal Commission of Missing Persons contains 8,372 names, of whom some 500 were under 18, and includes several dozen women and some girls.
If the former (ie language) objection can be resolved, I can see room for the following compromise edit:
The Preliminary List of People Missing or Killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Bosnian Federal Commission of Missing Persons contains 8,372 names [citation needed], of whom some 500 were under 18 [your ref], and includes several dozen women and some girls [citation needed].
Cheers Jonathanmills ( talk) 18:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
As posted above: The Missing Persons list currently posted at the Potocari Memorial Site http://www.potocarimc.ba/memorijalni_eng/favorite.htm numbers the missing presumed dead from 1.HAJRUDIN ABDURAHMANOVIĆ, aged 50, to 8373. ALIJA ŽIVALJ, aged 64. This list is almost certainly incomplete, given the various problems that have been referred to here from time to time in the past, including the wiping out of entire families leaving no-one to report the deaths. Opbeith ( talk) 00:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
He keeps deleting sources (NGO Women of Srebrenica) for 500 victims under the age of 18. He also keeps deleting Dutchbat testimony about several babies that died. THIS MUST STOP. This is a clear vandalism on the part of this editor that we also had problems in the past. Bosniak ( talk) 18:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Bosniak. How can you justify deleting sourced parts such as Genocide supporters section? Kruško Mortale ( talk) 13:20, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
about attempts by the RS government and officials to hide the genocide by moving the bodies few times to different locations -- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 21:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
It's a well known fact that the bodies were moved few times in order to hide what happened there,so what's the problem?-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 17:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was not moved. The proponents of this move have made an excellent case that the use of the term "Srebrenica genocide" is growing in use, especially with the recent declarations by various national and international organizations. However, the opponents of this move also have made an excellent case that "Srebrenica genocide", while growing in use, has not yet achieved the status of most commonly used name. Therefore, while it seems a majority of editors support the move, there is not yet enough consensus for a move. This does not preclude a future move if genocide does become more commonly used than massacre; it's just not there yet, and we are not permitted to read the future. Cheers, -- Aervanath ( talk) 16:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Support - I opposed the move in the past because Srebrenica massacre was the more requently used term. But I have now changed my mind. Since the International Court of Justice confirmed the ICTY's finding of genocide, the slaughter is increasingly frequently referred to as the genocide rather than the massacre. Seha, you're not correct yet. The EU has not yet adopted July 11th as a Memorial Day but on 15 January the European Parliament passed overwhelmingly a motion - 556 votes in favour, 9 against, 22 abstentions - whose text is at http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P6-TA-2009-0028+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN
The Parliament "2. Calls on the Council and the Commission to commemorate appropriately the anniversary of the Srebrenica-Potočari act of genocide by supporting Parliament's recognition of 11 July as the day of commemoration of the Srebrenica genocide all over the EU, and to call on all the countries of the western Balkans to do the same;"
556 out of 587 of the elected representatives of the population of the member countries of the European Union decided that the event they were referring to was the Srebrenica genocide. I think the passing of their Resolution on 15 January can be considered adequate reason for reopening the discussion. Opbeith ( talk) 19:25, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Comment Every time this move proposal has surfaced, there have been accusations that those wanting to keep the present title are in some way seeking to deny that it was an act of genocide. It is important to remember that an event can have a certain name without that name changing what occurred. The name "Srebrenica massacre" appears to be the most common name applied to the event in news reports, official statements, and web searches. This does not change the nature of the event, and it is not Wikipedia's role to rename the event based on interpretations or opinions. -- Ckatz chat spy 04:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
There are links to Guardian, New York Times, Amnesty International, ICTY and justicetribune with explicite talking about genocide and not massacre, or massacre as a part of Srebrenica genocide. -- Seha ( talk) 12:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Oppose title change. See very precise comment by Ckatz: It is not our task as editors to find appropriate names based on our interpretations. "Massacre" is the most widely used name (see details in previous discussions), it is also a neutral, descriptive name, and the intro clearly states that the Srebrenica Massacre was genocide according to authoritative bodies. In addition, I think it is unwise to reopen this issue every 3rd month when an editor feels that the title is not perfect for some reason. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 12:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't see any new arguments above. "SG" and "SM" refers to the same event in 1995, and the article describes the event i 1995, its background and aftermath. Nobody has been able to demonstrate that "SG" has now become the common name for this event, the facts are clear: "SM" is used far more frequent than "SG" as specific name for this event, even during the last 3, 6 or 12 months. WP policy clearly implies that the title of the article remains "SM" until substantial changes in name usage can be observed. Best regards, Mondeo ( talk) 16:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
A search in Google Scholar (search engine for academic publications) reveals that "SM" is used in 475 publication, while "SG" is used in 56. In the JSTORE scientific database the ratio is 13 to 2. Similar ratios are found in news databases. The "commong name" for something is not changed by a vote in the European Parliament. Regards, Mondeo ( talk) 15:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Apologies for the length of this reply to the various issues raised by Mondeo. I don't dismiss the argument that many people do use the expression "Srebrenica massacre", I simply believe that "Srebrenica genocide" is now the appopriate expression.
(1) "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
"minimum of ambiguity" implies that the name must be an accuracy indication of the subject matter. The "would most easily recognize" criterion must be understood accordingly. So as long as there's no obscurity this implies opting for the name that most closely describes the subject rather than the less accurate, more ambiguous, term.
(2) The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers' over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.
Assuming that anyone enquiring about "Srebrenica massacre" can be redirected to "Srebrenica genocide" the impact on uninformed readers should be positive rather than negative, guiding them to a clearer understanding of the subject that they're investigating. And as "Srebrenica genocide" is gaining in currency uninformed readers are as likely to come looking for information on the subject of the "Srebrenica genocide" as they are on the "Srebrenica massacre". Most informed readers are unlikely to have any problem with the more accurate title.
(3) Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English for the topic call the subject.
There are a variety of different kinds of "verifiable reliable sources". Where usage is changing and reporting of the subject tends to follow authoritative legal and political sources, albeit with a time lag, official use by competent international organisations should be considered as providing appropriate verifiable reliable sources at least equivalent to media reporting (examples below).
(4) Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.
This principle should be understood as referring to names used for the same person or thing. The "Srebrenica massacre" and the "Srebrenica genocide" are not identical. The difference in meaning has already been explained and is a substantial one. The massacre is the event itself and the term was used while the legal fact of criminality and the issue of responsibility were still to be resolved. Now that the fact of genocide has been established at the highest levels of international law, references to what happened at Srebrenica in most cases are concerned not simply with the raw event but with the combination of the event and its legal significance, i.e. the genocide.
The massacre can now be considered to be one aspect (a central aspect, of course) of the genocide. "Srebrenica massacre" is used legitimately to distinguish the event from the genocide but it is also used inaccurately as a superseded "relict" term. Relict usage is an inappropriate measure of the term's suitability for an article dealing with the genocide and not just the massacre.
The common use of the term "Rwandan genocide" rather than "Rwandan massacre(s)" supports the case for use of a parallel expression in relation to Srebrenica.
(5) Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another.
Neither "Srebrenica massacre" nor "Srebrenica genocide" can be considered controversial or in opposition to one another. "Srebrenica massacre" ceased to be controversial as the determined efforts to deny its reality were refuted by the exhumations from mass graves and other evidence proved in criminal trials. Since the ICTY's finding of genocide was confirmed by the International Court of Justice in February 2007 "Srebrenica genocide" is no longer the subject of legitimate controversy except in specialist areas of legal theory. Its non-controversiality is confirmed by the term's use by international bodies such as the United Nations, the European Commission and the European Parliament.
(6) If an article name has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should remain.
When there is ongoing and justified pressure for the name to be changed and substantial developments as cited and described provide good reason for change the persistence of the original name should not be described as stability.
(7) There is no substantial change in how reputable sources name this event.
International bodies at the highest level now use the expression "Srebrenica genocide" rather than "Srebrenica massacre" except with reference to the more restricted sense of massacre already referred to. The United Nations, the European Commission and the European Parliament now follow the International Court of justices's determination.
(8) If the english language news media use "SM" vs "SG" in a ratio 10 to 1 or 5 to 1, this is a clear indication that "SM" is indeed the common name (as required by WP)
A search in Google Scholar (search engine for academic publications) reveals that "SM" is used in 475 publication, while "SG" is used in 56. In the JSTORE scientific database the ratio is 13 to 2. Similar ratios are found in news databases.
This disregards the question of accuracy. Numbers of citations even from current published media sources is not necessarily an appropriate indicator, given that inaccurate or relict usage can distort those numbers, as well as legitimate references to a partial meaning within the whole. (Various examples have been discussed with reference to Mondeo's earlier selection of sources - Le Monde, Diplomatique, Reuters, etc.). This is why appropriate weight should be given to the terms deliberated, accepted and used by authoritative bodies such as international organisations.
(9) The common name for something is not changed by a vote in the European Parliament.
No, but the vote in the European Parliament, in which the term was endorsed by an overwhelming majority of elected representatives who would normally be expected to give careful thought to the significance of the words they commit themselves to using, was the outcome of a lengthy process of consultation and deliberation. The MEPs who voted for the Resolution exercise the authority granted to them by the population of most of Europe. No vote in an influential institution takes place as an event in isolation.
Although Wikipedia itself advises against a slavish adherence to general rules where inappropriate experience suggests that that sound advice is honoured more in the breach than observance. I console myself by reminding myself of the reflections of King Cnut/Canute.
Opbeith (
talk)
10:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
WP rule for name is very clear: The common name for the thing or event. A vote in the EU parliament does not change that. Opbeith claims that "SM" is a relict. Well, as I have said several times already: If I restrict search to last 3, 6 or 12 months, the result is still the same. I acknowledge Opbeith's arguments, but they are of little relevance as WP is edited according to WP policy and guidelines. So for instance "ongoing and justified pressure to change the name" is not relevant when this pressure is merely based on editors' opinions, and not on changes in public usage of a name. There are good reasons (evidence) for the current title, so there is no need to change it (as WP guidelines says). If other editors are able to produce evidence that "SG" has clearly replaced "SM" as the most widely used name for this event, that is, that there is notable stability in a pedominant use of "SG" in the public, then let us discuss it again. Let us slow down.
If Opbeith wants to change WP policy and guidelines this is not the right forum. I agree that it is an interesting idea to use names defined by authoritative bodies rather than common names (the most widely used and recognized name), but at present this is not in line with WP policy. A change of the title at present will clearly violate WP policy. Don't do it.
Best regards, Mondeo ( talk) 16:01, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I think that's a misrepresentation of the explanation for the proposal that I and others have offered, that we're dealing with two different concepts, albeit closely related, one of which largely encompasses the other. I hope I wasn't understood to be claiming that "Srebrenica massacre" was solely a relict usage. Opbeith ( talk) 17:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
oppose: Both arguments for and against the move have validity. It has been established beyond a doubt in a court of law that the massacre that took place in and around Srebrenica was an act of genocide. It is the view of this editor that the Srebrenica massacre was one of many acts of genocide, the overall genocide being committed throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina against Bosnian Muslims and against the multi-ethnic society of Bosnia and Hercegovina. This editor opposes the title change to "Srebrenica Genocide" because it combines a limited notion "Srebrenica" with something that in the opinion of this editor was much more widespread. To this editor, the title "Srebrenica Genocide" is like saying "Lower Left Lung Cancer" when the cancer is throughout both lungs but due to political considerations the hospital is only allowed to refer to one section of the cancer. If the cancer is throughout both lungs, saying "Lower Left Lung Cancer" creates the false impression that the cancer is limited to only one area of one lung. Saying "Srebrenica Genocide" implies the genocide was limited to Srebrenica which is not consistent with the views of this editor and therefore this editor opposes the move. In the opinion of this editor, the Srebrenica massacre should not be described as "The Srebrenica Genocide" but rather the largest of many massacres that constituted a Genocide throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina. To this editor, the title "Srebrenica Genocide" sounds warped not because this editor questions whether the massacre was an act of genocide, not because the title goes too far or presumes too much, but because it is too limited. It is a truncated term resulting from the international courts failure to prove the obvious, that the actual Genocide was throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina. Fairview360 ( talk) 18:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Fairview360, I certainly don't disagree with you in principle. All I would say is that on the one hand the Srebrenica genocide is an undisputed legal fact and on the other the existence of an extensive lesion that hasn't been formally diagnosed doesn't stop the identified disease being referred to by its name. Having said that, I share your frustration that the international courts have so far failed to prove the obvious, that genocide was perpetrated across Bosnia and Herzegovina as part of the same pattern and strategy. Opbeith ( talk) 23:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Support The Srebrenica genocide is fact, changing the article should be a simple task. This is not an opinion people, these are facts, why are you denying this fact with opposing the change of the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.157.156.102 ( talk) 15:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Support Its ridiculous that genocide deniers are still allowed to permeate their rubbish here. -- Harac ( talk) 10:54, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I find this debate completely ridiculous. This article should IMMEDIATELY be moved to Srebrenica GENOCIDE. THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL STATED THAT THIS EVENT WAS A GENOCIDE, WHY DO YOU CONTINUE DEBATING ON WETHER IT WAS OR NOT. I think stupid should be the right term to use when talking about those who are against this request of changing the name of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.219.75.2 ( talk) 18:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I just undid three reversions, two of which are blatant editorializations and one of which appeared to be a deletion for no reason. Let's save the arguments for the talk page, not for the article. Hzoi ( talk) 13:09, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
I suggest we mention in the intro that the 1995 Srebrenica genocide resulted in mass killings of 8,372 Bosniaks, including ethnic cleansing of 25,000-30,000 people. That's a fact, but it would make more sense to mention it in the introduction. Bosniak ( talk) 22:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, in Krstić judgment it was stated that this fact was decisive in determination of specific intent. When I find time I'll cite it. -- Harac ( talk) 10:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
The argument is summed up most succinctly in the Partial Dissenting Opinion of Judge Shahabuddeen, forming Part VIII of the ICTY Appeals Chamber finding. Shahabuddeen does not dissent with the Appeals Chamber's finding on genocide, he dissents from the finding that Krstic was not a principal perpetrator of genocide but only an aider and abettor.
The BBC report cited may have been confused regarding the argument whether the crime was one of deportation or forced transfer.
The above seems to me to be another cogent argument for a change in the title of the article to Srebrenica Genocide. The massacre, the forcible transfer of the women and younger children and the destruction of homes were component elements of the one planned act of genocide. Opbeith ( talk) 18:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
On the basis of the above I propose that the first sentence of the article now be reworded as follows:
As far as I can tell, the ICTY Krstic findings do not not specify the precise number of civilians who were the subject of forced (or forcible) transfer. I put the figure in brackets so that other people can provide the references to support this estimate, which finds fairly widespread acceptance.
The logical conclusion from all this is that Wikipedia should have a "Srebrenica Genocide" article which would absorb the content of the "Srebrenica Massacre" article. Opbeith ( talk) 19:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
And of course, bearing in mind that the date of the Appeals Chamber's judgment was 19 April 2004, what all the above also does is confirm that Gen. Lewis MacKenzie's article published in the Toronto Globe and Mail on July 14, 2005, under the title “The Real Story Behind Srebrenica“, was an act of genocide denial. Asserting that what he has to say is "The Real Story" MacKenzie dismisses the findings of the ICTY Appeals Chamber. See
Balkan Witness
Opbeith (
talk)
20:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Please allow me to respond to your half-truths excerpted from the genocide judgment. Why did Radislav Krstic forcibly transfer women and children? Did he do it to save them. The ICTY says NO.
31. As the Trial Chamber explained, forcible transfer could be an additional means by which to ensure the physical destruction of the Bosnian Muslim community in Srebrenica. The transfer completed the removal of all Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica, thereby eliminating even the residual possibility that the Muslim community in the area could reconstitute itself. The decision not to kill the women or children may be explained by the Bosnian Serbs’ sensitivity to public opinion. In contrast to the killing of the captured military men, such an action could not easily be kept secret, or disguised as a military operation, and so carried an increased risk of attracting international censure.
32. In determining that genocide occurred at Srebrenica, the cardinal question is whether the intent to commit genocide existed. While this intent must be supported by the factual matrix, the offence of genocide does not require proof that the perpetrator chose the most efficient method to accomplish his objective of destroying the targeted part. Even where the method selected will not implement the perpetrator’s intent to the fullest, leaving that destruction incomplete, this ineffectiveness alone does not preclude a finding of genocidal intent. The international attention focused on Srebrenica, combined with the presence of the UN troops in the area, prevented those members of the VRS [Bosnian Serb Army] Main Staff who devised the genocidal plan from putting it into action in the most direct and efficient way. Constrained by the circumstances, they adopted the method which would allow them to implement the genocidal design while minimizing the risk of retribution.
and
Thus, standing alone, forcible transfer is not genocide. But in this case the transfer did not stand alone, and that indeed is the basis on which the Appeals Chamber rejected the defence argument that it showed that there was no genocide. It was part – an integral part – of one single scheme to commit genocide, involving killings, forcible transfer and destruction of homes. In particular, it showed that the intent with which the killings were done was indeed to destroy the Srebrenica part of the Bosnian Muslim group. In my view, the judgment of the Appeals Chamber has to be understood as affirming that, by taking on the role of chief executor of the policy of forcible transfer - an inseparable element of the genocide - the appellant shared the intent of the Main Staff to commit the crime of genocide."
Bosniak ( talk) 03:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
PhilipBairdShearer, I'm not clear why you find a clarification by Judge Shahabuddeen unacceptable when it is clear that this is not the element of dissent from the majority. In any case, if you want a more explicit statement in a trial judgment perhaps the Blagojevic case Judgment will clarify the situation for you (Case No. IT-02-60-T / Date: 17 January 2005):
"674. The Trial Chamber is convinced that the criminal acts committed by the Bosnian Serb forces were all parts of one single scheme to commit genocide of the Bosnian Muslims of Srebrenica, as reflected in the “Krivaja 95” operation, the ultimate objective of which was to eliminate the enclave and, therefore, the Bosnian Muslim community living there. The forcible transfer was an integral part of this operation, which also included killings and destruction of properties. The Bosnian Serb forces separated the able-bodied men in Potocari, and captured those in the column heading to Tuzla, regardless of their military or civilian status. The separation of the men from the rest of the Bosnian Muslim population shows the intent to segregate the community and ultimately to bring about the destruction of the Bosnian Muslims of Srebrenica. The Bosnian Muslim men were stripped of their personal belongings and identification, detained, and finally taken to execution sites, where the Bosnian Serb forces deliberately and systematically killed them, solely on the basis of their ethnicity.
675. Immediately before and during these massacres, the remainder of the Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica was forcibly transferred to Bosnian Muslim-held territory. The forcible transfer of the women, children and elderly is a manifestation of the specific intent to rid the Srebrenica enclave of its Bosnian Muslim population. The manner in which the transfer was carried out – through force and coercion, by not registering those who were transferred, by burning the houses of some of the people, sending the clear message that they had nothing to return to, and significantly, through its targeting of literally the entire Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica, including the elderly and children – clearly indicates that it was a means to eradicate the Bosnian Muslim population from the territory where they had lived.
676. In such a context, the killings in Bratunac town were also a manifestation of this intent to destroy the group. It had an impact on the Bosnian Muslim group beyond the death of the men killed; it sent a message to the remaining members of the group of their fate – that they were at the mercy of the Bosnian Serbs and that their lives, too, could be taken at any moment.
677. The Trial Chamber has no doubt that all these acts constituted a single operation executed with the intent to destroy the Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica. The Trial Chamber finds that the Bosnian Serb forces not only knew that the combination of the killings of the men with the forcible transfer of the women, children and elderly, would inevitably result in the physical disappearance of the Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica, but clearly intended through these acts to physically destroy this group.
...
"706. The Trial Chamber recalls that the forcible transfer of women and children is an underlying act for two counts in the Indictment, namely Count 5 (inhumane acts) and Count 6 (persecutions). Additionally, as has been discussed above, the Trial Chamber observes that forcible transfer is a related underlying act for the charge of complicity in genocide.
707. It has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the women and children from the Srebrenica enclave were forcibly transferred to Kladanj on 12 and 13 July 1995."
...
"785. The Trial Chamber finds that Colonel Blagojevic knew of the principal perpetrators’ intent to destroy in whole or in part the Bosnian Muslim group as such. The Trial Chamber infers this knowledge from all the circumstances that surrounded the take-over of the Srebrenica enclave and the acts directed at the Bosnian Muslim population which followed. In particular, the Trial Chamber recalls:
- Colonel Blagojevic’s knew the goal of the Krivaja 95 operation, namely to create conditions for the elimination of the Srebrenica enclave
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that the Bosnian Muslim population in its entirety was driven out of Srebrenica town to Potocari
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that the Bosnian Muslim men were separated from the rest of the Bosnian Muslim population
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that the Bosnian Muslim women, children and elderly were forcibly transferred to non-Serb held territory
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that the Bosnian Muslim men were detained in inhumane conditions in temporary detention centres pending further transport
- Colonel Blagojevic knew that members of the Bratunac Brigade contributed to the murder of Bosnian Muslim men detained in Bratunac
- Colonel Blagojevic knew of and participated in an operation to search the terrain for the purpose of capturing and detaining Bosnian Muslim men, so as to prevent the men from “breaking through” to Tuzla or Kladanj, i.e., territory under the control of the Bosnian Muslims"
According to the ICTY the deportations/forcible transfers were part of the genocide. The Appeals Chamber reversed Blagojevic’s conviction for complicity in genocide on the basis that his knowledge of the forcible transfer operation, the separations, and the mistreatment and murders in Bratunac town were insufficient, to allow a finding of genocidal intent beyond reasonable doubt. The Appeal Chamber did not overthrow the Trial Chamber's judgment that "the criminal acts committed by the Bosnian Serb forces were all parts of one single scheme to commit genocide".
Opbeith ( talk) 00:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I added this info, update on the number of exhumed bodies as of May 1st: So far 6,006 bodies of Srebrenica genocide victims have been excavated from numerous mass graves, but the number is not final. See testimony of Dusan Janac and Dr. Thomas Parsons [15].
One of the survivors, Zarfa Turkovic , described the horrors of rapes as following: "Two [Serb soldiers] took her legs and raised them up in the air, while the third began raping her. Four of them were taking turns on her. People were silent, no one moved. She was screaming and yelling and begging them to stop. They put a rag into her mouth and then we just heard silent sobs…." See: (1) http://www.bookrags.com/highbeam/refugees-tell-of-women-singled-out-for-19950718-hb/ and (2) http://www.markdanner.com/articles/show/62#fn1 . Bosniak ( talk) 06:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Missouri House of Representatives passed resolution abotu the Srebrenica genocide. Here is a scanned copy of a document: | http://www.srebrenica95.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:rezolucija-missouri-kongresa&catid=4:vijesti&Itemid=86. Please include it in the article. Bosniak ( talk) 07:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
City of Saint Louis also issued proclamation about the Srebrenica genocide. Here is a scanned copy of the document | http://srebrenica95.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102:proklamacija-grada-st-louis-a-o-srebrenickom-genocidu&catid=44:vijesti&Itemid=86. Please include it in the article. Bosniak ( talk) 07:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Since this is a case of genocide, I suggest we rename the article to Srebrenica Genocide. I read the archive and earlier debates and voting process was flawed. Serb editors organized themselves and simply voted "NO," as they don't even accept the term - genocide. There should not be popularity votes and one ethnic group should not be allowed to outvote other ethnic group. We should simply do this by following facts. There was a genocide, more specifically Srebrenica genocide, so why there such a huge hesitation to call the genocide with its proper name? The title of the article should reflect that. I think that we don't need any voting process for such a simple, straightforward fact. Edina1979 ( talk) 19:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Edina, as you may have noticed by now - I recently renamed this article to Srebrenica Genocide, but the administrator undid my edit and warned me not to do it again. I applaud Ckatz's civilized response, but I don't understand what he meant by saying "many of the respondents opposing the movehad no connection to either ethnic background." If you go back and see who voted against the idea, it will become obvious to you that Serbs organized themselves to prevent the article being renamed to Srebrenica Genocide. They organized themselves, voted against it, and then abandoned this article. Now we are stuck with "Srebrenica Massacre" even though the International Criminal Tribunal refers to the event as Srebrenica Genocide (example: http://www.icty.org/sid/10124 ). Serbs/Serbians open all kinds of bogus articles, such as North Kosovo - a term that never existed, but was manufactured recently when Kosovo was forced to defend its sovereignity. They also came up with fake definitions, such as "Serpophobia" and spammed search engines to gain popularity of a non-existent word. When we tried to delete the article, Serbs outvoted us. However, when we opened an article titled Bosniakophobia, Serbs came back, outvoted us again, and deleted our article. Wikipedia is being run by popularity. If you have enough activists to outvote other editors, you can create all kinds of articles and promote all kinds of agendas, such as "Serpophobia" (I intentionally misspelled it, as I do not recognize this word), North Kosovo, and other non-existent, manufactured, imaginary words and subjects. *yawn* Bosniak ( talk) 00:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Support. I am tired of people who are denying that genocide took place in Srebrenica. It has been proven without a doubt, there no arguments to support the view that the article should remain nearly the Srebrenica massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.208.220.62 ( talk) 17:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Just a reminder from the Krstic Appeal Judgment, given on 19 April 2004, Case No. IT-98-33-A:
§37 "... The Appeals Chamber states unequivocally that the law condemns, in appropriate terms, the deep and lasting injury inflicted, and calls the massacre at Srebrenica by its proper name: genocide. ..."
Holy s**t you just discovered that the Tribunal sets the tone for the media? LOL! 09:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Opbeith ( talk) 21:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, this issue of the name by which the events that will be commemorated tomorrow is rather more complex and important than you appear willing to contemplate in your reversal. There has been extensive discussion of the matter here and elsewhere. The gradual acceptance and use of the term "Srebrenica genocide" in official and informal usage is a clear indication that there has been a change in public understanding. This was inevitable once the controversy over the issue of "genocide" was ended by the International Court of Justice decision in 2007. Actions such as the near unanimous adoption of the European Parliament Resolution clearly indicate that this change is widely accepted. Resolutions adopted by State assemblies in the US show that the change of designation is a global, not just European, trend. The discussions here show that many editors consider this is an important issue. The "simple" form of wording you want to retain fails to acknowledge this. Simplicity is certainly a virtue, but not when it obscures the real state of affairs. Opbeith ( talk) 09:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, you have reverted again while I was writing to the discussion page. My change was adequately explained in the header in which I referred in particular to the previous discussions. Your preferred wording is inadequate, indicating that the term "Srebrenica Genocide" is of subordinate rather than competing or greater importance. It is clear from the name change discussions that retaining the name "Srebrenica massacre" is in itself a simplification of the complex and changing real situation. The shortened form of words you prefer is more than "simple", it is "simplistic" and in the context embodies a point of view. Opbeith ( talk) 09:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Qutoing once again from the ICTY President Judge Theodor Meron's "Address on the Occasion of the 10th Anniversary of the Srebrenica Genocide" at [16], first quoting from the Krstic Appeal Judgment:
"The Appeals Chamber states unequivocally that the law condemns, in appropriate terms, the deep and lasting injury inflicted, and calls the massacre at Srebrenica by its proper name: genocide. Those responsible will bear this stigma, and it will serve as a warning to those who may in future contemplate the commission of such a heinous act.
These words of the Tribunal's Appeals Chamber are unmistakeable: the crimes that were committed here were not simply murders; they were targeted at a particular human group with the intent to destroy it. They were so heinous as to warrant the gravest of labels: genocide. It is our responsibility at the Tribunal to see that justice is done for those who lost their lives here, and that the people responsible for these unspeakable offences are tried and punished."
Meron repeats that the Appeals Chamber "calls the massacre at Srebrenica by its proper name: genocide" and emphasises that "These words of the Tribunal's Appeals Chamber are unmistakeable: the crimes that were committed here ... warrant the gravest of labels: genocide."
And yet Wikipedia not only denies the massacre "its proper name", it stands firm even against adequately acknowledging the weight of legal, institutional and informed public opinion. So if simplicity is to be our yardstick let's sum this all up quite simply as "Wikipedia denies genocide its proper name". Once all the argument and discussion is done, that's what it boils down to. Opbeith ( talk) 10:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&q=%22srebrenica%20genocide%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn Bosniak ( talk) 23:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree when people say that google gives more answers when using "massacre" than "genocide". One of the reasons is that the term Srebrenica Massacre has been used for a so long time here on Wikipedia and a lot of people, wanting to know wether it was a massacre or a genocide, don't bother about doing all the research and knowing all the facts, the just type srebrenica genocide in google and look at Wikipedia. If Wikipedia tells them it was a massacre, then it will be a massacre and it will stay massacre for longer and longer. People will start writing more and more articles, using the term "massacre", because Wikipedia told them it was the right one to use. People won't use the term "genocide", because Wikipedia told them it wasn't the right term to use. In my opinion, by following what was said the Internation Tribunal, this article should be changer for Srebrenica Genocide, and the google searches result would, not instantly but after some time, show an evident and superior use of the term "genocide" than the term "massacre". The wikipedia community should be ashamed to misinform the worldwide population who trusts it. MidobiM( talk)
New update on victims identified through the DNA analysis: http://www.ic-mp.org/press-releases/dna-results-of-the-international-commission-on-missing-persons-reveal-the-identity-of-6186-srebrenica-victims-dnk-izvjestaji-medunarodne-komisije-za-nestale-osobe-icmp-otkrili-identitete-6186-sreb/ Bosniak ( talk) 00:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Oric trial judgment makes it clear that Serb villages were heavily militarized and used to attack Bosniak villages and the town of Srebrenica:
"Between April 1992 and March 1993, Srebrenica town and the villages in the area held by Bosnian Muslims were constantly subjected to Serb military assaults, including artillery attacks, sniper fire, as well as occasional bombing from aircrafts. Each onslaught followed a similar pattern. Serb soldiers and paramilitaries surrounded a Bosnian Muslim village or hamlet, called upon the population to surrender their weapons, and then began with indiscriminate shelling and shooting. In most cases, they then entered the village or hamlet, expelled or killed the population, who offered no significant resistance, and destroyed their homes. During this period, Srebrenica was subjected to indiscriminate shelling from all directions on a daily basis. Potočari in particular was a daily target for Serb artillery and infantry because it was a sensitive point in the defence line around Srebrenica. Other Bosnian Muslim settlements were routinely attacked as well. All this resulted in a great number of refugees and casualties.... The fighting intensified in December 1992 and the beginning of January 1993, when Bosnian Muslims were attacked by Bosnian Serbs primarily from the direction of Kravica and Ježestica. In the early morning of the 7 January 1993, Orthodox Christmas day, Bosnian Muslims attacked Kravica, Ježestica and Šiljkovići. Convincing evidence suggests that the village guards were backed by the VRS [Bosnian Serb Army], and following the fighting in the summer of 1992, they received military support, including weapons and training. A considerable amount of weapons and ammunition was kept in Kravica and Šiljkovići. Moreover, there is evidence that besides the village guards, there was Serb and Bosnian Serb military presence in the area. "
I did not make the initial change back to "genocide denial" but "alternative views" is unacceptable. It was imposed in an exhausting exchange over a year ago and those opposed to its use did not accept the change, but gave up the battle in order to concentrate on other areas where more specific issues were being fought over.
The poorly substantiated opinions of Diane Johnstone, Lewis MacKenzie et al. have been refuted on numerous occasions. "Alternative views" can be used for a section reviewing about thoughtful appraisal of the findings by legal scholars and other authorities.
Genocide was found to have been perpetrated. If the bare truth is unpalatable, perhaps something like "Speculative or discredited challenges to the finding of genocide" adequately reflects the substance of the content. "Genocide denial" is what the stuff actually is. Opbeith ( talk) 09:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, Once again your neutrality avoids uncomfortable facts. You put your own gloss over all that passed previously here. You are not "neutral", as your remarks regarding Lewis MacKenzie demonstrate. You tend to summarise situations in a way that appears slanted towards allowing challenge to the judicially established reality of Srebrenica while showing an unwillingness to allow interventions that seek to assert that reality. That tendency is not neutrality.
For example, you assert that Lewis MacKenzie is not some wing-nut with an agenda, and if he has an opinion that differs from the court's, that is his right.
No-one has claimed that MacKenzie is a right-wing nut but he certainly has an agenda and there is a reasonable volume of evidence to support that argument that has been presented here on numerous occasions (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Srebrenica_massacre/Archive_11).
You choose to refer to one side only of the MacKenzie case. MacKenzie's agenda was adequately illustrated by Roy Gutman's investigation of the payment received for a lecture tour funded by a Serb lobby and MacKenzie's dissimulation before the US Congress Armed Services Committee on Balkan matters.
As it happens, MacKenzie, who was so notorious here for such a long time, was eventually removed. It's simply nonsense to suggest that the "alternative views" section, has tended to be edited fairly conservatively to ensure that only reputable opinions are included. Diana Johnstone remains, because we have spent our limited energy elsewhere.
Johnstone's genocide rebuttals and other misrepresentations have been refuted time after time, most prominently in the ITN/LM trial. The Serb rubbishing of the argument about mass graves has remained in spite of the evidence of thousands of identifications of bodies of victims mingled by reburial in mass graves. It's time these went. I know you will once again revert me if I simply intervene with a reasoned explanation.
There is no case for the retention of the references to the arguments about the number of victims or the secpticism about mass graves under "alternative views". I propose that either these references are removed or the section is renamed as what it is - views that deny the legal findings, i.e. "denial of the genocide". (The reference to the appropriate location for a mention of the role of the Serbian media is up for discussion.)
Anyone citing the textual references to the figure of 7000-8000 as supporting the case for questioning the number of victims without at the same time acknowledging the subsequent evidence substantiating the higher number can expect a challenge that they are wilfully misusing superseded evidence in order to challenge the findings.
If someone denies the fact of genocide they are a genocide denier. I don't see how you can get away from that fact and why you are so persistent in trying to avoid accepting what flows from the fact that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide, as confirmed by the highest instances of international law.
The debate is open to informed discussion of the legal principles applied by the court or to new evidence and that's all. In the notorious Globe and Mail article MacKenzie dismissed the argument that genocide was perpetrated at Srebrenica using arguments that had already been dismissed by the ICTY finding. He was denying the genocide.
Would you be so willing to accommodate the equal right to preservation of discredited statements about Lewis MacKenzie's views and conduct? Your resolute unwillingness to accept the substance of the finding of genocide has implications.
Please explain why you insist that "Genocide deniers", ... tends to suggest that it is fair game for any individual who happens to have an opinion". You dismiss the arguments of those of us who have an alternative view to yours on the subject of the genocide. I think that it is you who behind the screen of neutrality and authority is expressing an opinion on the subject of genocide denial. Opbeith ( talk) 23:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, I was expecting a more thorough response from you to Opbeith. I am not taking sides, but Opbeith has won all arguments on this page - fair and square. You may wish to go back and re-read his arguments. I know from my own experience, I could never understand ICTY judgments by reading them only once. I had to go back and spend considerable time until I understand fully what judges wanted to explain and why they arrived to that particular decision. If you read carefully what Opbeith said, then you may learn a lot. Don't put yourself in a situation to "gloss over" the facts without giving them necessary weight. Hope you understand. Do you? Thanks. Bosniak ( talk) 06:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
The issue of renaming the article, though I see it as arising from the same principle of acknowledging the substance of the issue, is a separate matter in which I accept that there are valid arguments on both sides, though of course I find one side of the argument more convincing. I would describe it as an argument of "emphasis on substance + weight of usage" versus "emphasis on weight of usage", in which the main issue is not disagreement on substance but disagreement over the "weight of usage" element.
Taking the position you do in that argument is not denying the substance of genocide, simply excluding it from the equation, which is a legitimate stance although I disagree with it. Any doubts I have as to your objectivity have to do with the way you appear reluctant to give adequate credit to the other argument's evidence, for example your disparaging reference to the near-unanimous opinion of the European Parliament.
When I remarked on "Your resolute unwillingness to accept the substance of the finding of genocide", I was not saying that you had ever refused to accept the court's findings. What I was saying was that you refuse to accept the implications of the ICTY and ICJ findings.
What is at issue in this particular discussion is not the matter of usage, it is the question of acknowledging or denying the genocide. The question, simply put, is: are you willing to accept that people who refuse to acknowledge the fact of the genocide, in the face of the established findings, can be described as denying the genocide? Opbeith ( talk) 07:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, you're quick to intervene but no sign of a response to a simple question. Opbeith ( talk) 19:33, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Opbeith ( talk) 22:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
The so called "evacuation" you point to was nothing more but a massive scale ethnic cleansing of 30,000 Bosniaks, which was integral part of the genocide. User Opbeith already quoted two paragraphs from the ICTY judgement. I take liberty to add two more:
Here is a detailed answer to this question directly from the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (Appeals Chamber, Prosecutor vs. Radislav Krstic):
31. As the Trial Chamber explained, forcible transfer could be an additional means by which to ensure the physical destruction of the Bosnian Muslim community in Srebrenica. The transfer completed the removal of all Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica, thereby eliminating even the residual possibility that the Muslim community in the area could reconstitute itself. The decision not to kill the women or children may be explained by the Bosnian Serbs’ sensitivity to public opinion. In contrast to the killing of the captured military men, such an action could not easily be kept secret, or disguised as a military operation, and so carried an increased risk of attracting international censure.
32. In determining that genocide occurred at Srebrenica, the cardinal question is whether the intent to commit genocide existed. While this intent must be supported by the factual matrix, the offence of genocide does not require proof that the perpetrator chose the most efficient method to accomplish his objective of destroying the targeted part. Even where the method selected will not implement the perpetrator’s intent to the fullest, leaving that destruction incomplete, this ineffectiveness alone does not preclude a finding of genocidal intent. The international attention focused on Srebrenica, combined with the presence of the UN troops in the area, prevented those members of the VRS [Bosnian Serb Army] Main Staff who devised the genocidal plan from putting it into action in the most direct and efficient way. Constrained by the circumstances, they adopted the method which would allow them to implement the genocidal design while minimizing the risk of retribution. Bosniak ( talk) 01:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
You're hiding important facts, and therefore you make this article biased. Serbs did evacuate many civilians in the area by organizing trucks rides. Serbs provided a way for civilians to escape. You should know that Srebrenica was used by Naser Oric to attack Serbs. the proof that this article is pro-Bosnian bias is that it negates the suffering and killings of Serb civilians. Rex Dominator ( talk) 02:02, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Rex Dominator, you do not answer the points made in response to your original comment. Opbeith ( talk) 09:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The statement doesn't dismiss the event of Serbs evacuating woman and children via buses from Srebrenica. It argues that this "could [have] be[en]" a part of the genocide. The statement, whoever made it during the process, is simply a claim, and does not have within it any evidence. To quote, "forcible transfer could be", it doesnt mean that it is. Rex Dominator ( talk) 06:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Rex Dominator, I suggest you go back and read the Court's findings. You've ignored the passages from the Trial Chamber's Judgement that I quoted above:
and
Bosniak's quotations are from the Appeal Chamber's deliberations considering the appeal against the finding of genocide. At this point the Appeal Chamber is looking at the Defence argument cited in the previous paragraph 30: "The Defence argues that the VRS decision to transfer, rather than to kill, the women and children of Srebrenica in their custody undermines the finding of genocidal intent".
The Appeal Chamber considers the Defence's suggestion and then says that the cardinal question is whether the intent to commit genocide existed. And although the forcible transfer does not constitute in and of itself (i.e. in isolation) a genocidal act, the Appeal Chamber confirms that the Trial Chamber was entitled to rely on it as evidence of the genocidal intentions of members of the VRS Main Staff" (which may be inferred, among other facts, from evidence of other culpable acts systematically directed against the same group).
So it was argued that the forcible transfer might not have been evidence of genocide. And the Appeal Chamber then said that the Trial Chamber was right to consider that it was.
Your linguistic hypotheses don't take us anywhere outside the Appeal Chamber's finding that genocide was in fact perpetrated at Srebrenica. Your "evacuation", the Court's "forcible transfer", was accepted as evidence of genocidal intent and hence of genocide. I suggest you read the relevant section of the Trial Chamber's and Appeal Chamber's findings before speculating any further. Opbeith ( talk) 11:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Yugo91aesop, you seem to be suggesting that Srebrenica was not under siege? You seem to imply that the Serbs were not engaged in military operations in the conduct of that siege? You seem to be suggesting that the fate of the inhabitants of Zvornik and Visegrad was irrelevant to the situation in Srebrenica? Mladic did not allow anything. What he did do was maintain a refugee population in a state of hunger and fear until the time when he believed that the international community would allow him to get away with eliminating it. Opbeith ( talk) 10:57, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
As with most statistics about the Srebrenica Genocide, the list is not final. Note: Srebrenica victims are subsequently buried in Srebrenica - Potocari Memorial and Cementery. As of 2009, more then 3700 DNA identified victims are buried there. Memorial Center of Potocari ( September 2009): 3749 victims already buried,
of them - children: 13,5 - 14 years old: 5 14 y. old: 10 15 y. old: 37 16 y. old: 65 17 y. old: 93 ------------- total: 210
Federal Commission for Missing Persons; "Preliminary List of Missing and Killed in Srebrenica"; 2005
[17]
Regards, 77.240.177.27 ( talk) 08:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC) Kutil
Oh dear, why did you put a huge list of names here? This is inappropriate. Rndxcl ( talk) 08:34, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Milorad Trbic has been found guilty on one count of genocide and sentenced to 30 years in jail. I have updated this information in the article. For more info, look it up here: http://www.bim.ba/en/188/10/22954/ . Bosniak ( talk) 19:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Harac for updating it. Bosniak ( talk) 03:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Not beginning - I'm moving the Helsinki group to the bottom. Boeremoer ( talk) 17:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Bosniak ( talk) 20:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
icty-july05
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).