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We should probably add something about other groups who use or used the S&C such as the formewr United American Mechanics whose items are often seen on places like ebay mis-lableled as Masonic. I also once met a German tourist who was wearing a shirt with an S&C, a hammer and a saw. I inquired if he was a Mason. He informed me it was the logo of a German carpenters union. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.229.69 ( talk) 15:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
So is it proper for mechanices or machinist to wear this? I used to see alot of machinist wear the ring 20 years ago,but have not seen one since. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.155.86 ( talk) 17:01, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I was corrected on this recently myself - it's not a "compass" but rather "compasses". Shall we change the title? MSJapan 16:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes this is true. How do we go about changing the title? Jokerst44 16:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
As an Engineer with many hours as a (pre-CAD) Draftsman, I also choked on the use of the plural: Compasses vs. the singular: Compass for this singular instrument. It (like pair-of-pants?) seems strange and illogical to me. I've never heard the plural used as singular in years of practice. That said I'm simply questioning, (still researching) this odd and perhaps historic use. IF Freemasonry does use the plural for their symbol -- then it's use is appropriate in that article; but perhaps not here. Clarification anyone? HalFonts ( talk) 15:50, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
The reference cited doesn't say anything like what's in the article. Can we get some better sources for this? There's a lot more stuff out there on the S&C, but we need non-anecdotal and cited sources. MSJapan 16:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I have cut a lot of the speculation on the meaning behind the S&C... it was unreferenced, and thus amounted to Original Research. I have replaced that material with a few lines taken from the main Freemasonry page. There is still a lot of work to be done on this article. Blueboar 17:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
what's the G in the middle? -- CMG 14:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
In Irish Freemasonry, the G is spoke of as having a different meaning which is only disclosed to a Master entering the chair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.250.189.37 ( talk) 12:43, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Please provide the angle of the compass, does the angle have any importance? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.122.95.211 ( talk) 17:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Do the Square and Compasses have anything in common with the Star of David and the related Israeli flag ? If you look at it, it is really two triangles standing on each other that form two opposite, occult pyramids. ADM ( talk) 16:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
A few days ago, I 'accidentally' came across a Youtube video about Rastafari & Freemasonry that stated something about the Masons' square & compass that I hadn't heard before. Last night I confronted a 32 Degree Mason friend of mine at work with, "I read on an Internet post that the Masonic logo of the square & compass is so important to Masons because these were the tools of Jesus the Carpenter. Is that true?" "Of course! Why else would they be so obsessed with those tools? Because they were the tools of a carpenter - because they were Jesus' tools." Confirmation. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.121.70 ( talk) 15:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Blueboar, you're right about "youtube is hardly a reliable source", that is why I sought out a 32 Degree Mason for his very informed opinion. I made that clear, yet you missed that! I AM sure the 32 Degree Mason I talked to "was being serious". My quote of his was paraphrased, but the exact wording is not the issue. Everyone knows that "the square & compass are stonemasons' tools". Would a carpenter use them too? A good carpenter would. Even though the popular concept is that "Jesus was a carpenter", I personally agree with some scholars who believe the Greek word was mistranslated to "carpenter" and should be "teacher". Jesus was clearly a 'rabbi' which is Hebrew for 'teacher'. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 04:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I added the following... Thus, Freemasonry combines the belief in the unity of God and the study of science. (ref: Secrets of Founding Fathers, History Channel, [2009?]) - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 04:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
There is a dispute about this book being a reliable source of information for this article. A key factor in this dispute is a phrase in the preface of the book:
The dispute arrose over interpretations of these statements This book was and is published by the Supreme Council, Thirty Third Degree, of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction of the United States. In 2011, the book underwent revision by Arturo de Hoyos, 33°, G∴C∴, the Scottish Rite’s Grand Archivist and Grand Historian. The only changes were the addition of annotations. Plasmic Physics ( talk) 22:00, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Are these beliefs at odds with that of the rest of the Supreme Council? Plasmic Physics ( talk) 22:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Do they disagree with the above information? Plasmic Physics ( talk) 23:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Are they (SC) not a body of experts on freemason principles? Plasmic Physics ( talk) 01:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
What of this quote taken from Wikipedia: "The Scottish Rite is one of the appendant bodies of Freemasonry that a Master Mason may join for further exposure to the principles of Freemasonry." Plasmic Physics ( talk) 01:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Who can show that the information is wrong? Do you know of another 33 degree mason with a conflicting ideology? Plasmic Physics ( talk) 02:04, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually, it is an educated opinion; it is not one man's opinion, but an entire rite's opinion, a peer reviewed opinion. Plasmic Physics ( talk) 02:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The SC is the rite's representative, not their members. Plasmic Physics ( talk) 02:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Fine then, because I'm tired of argueing my case: at least grant me permission to add the information to the article of the book. Plasmic Physics ( talk) 04:29, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
User:TonyGosling seems instant on edit warring to keep the following line: "Some sceptics suggest the dividers above the square ruler symbolise Divide and Rule" citing this and this. In my opinion, both are unreliable conspiracy oriented fringe websites and mentioning what they say gives them WP:UNDUE weight. Tony... instead of edit warring, please discuss. Blueboar ( talk) 22:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
The references I have made both here and on the page itself are perfectly reasonable - first I cite a conversation with a freemason I personally had and second I show - in figurative terms - that someone on-line has actually corroborated that conversation and depicted the symbol about which the entry is based - A DIVIDER and a RULER in those same exact terms. Blueboar seems to be suggesting that the ideas of non masons or even anti masons are not accepted on Wikipedia? May I dare to suggest that it is in fact this anonymous user Blue Boar - who is simply reverting my additions with no proper explanation, citing quite in error that my edit is spurious and untreliable, thus creating an 'edit war' as he/she so puts it? Moreover in the existing entry the concept of the masonic symbolism is explained as not having a fixed definition. Openly inviting other explanations and this is by far more logical and reasonable that the explanation given in the entry to which Blueboar has reverted the page to. A clear breach of the rules here by Blueboar. Leave the rational, illustrated, edit be and perhaps - argue why several definitions including mine might or might not be true citing masonic and non masonic sources.
Not sure how many links I have to present to explain this is a perfectly legitimate view which ACCURATELY links in with the ACTUAL SYMBOLS and I'm rather irritated that you consider me as instituting an edit war because it was anonymous user Blueboar and another that began to instantly revert my addition without discussion on talk pages or the article page itself. I am new here but I recognise immediately that I am being accused of doing something which someone else began. not sure how to embed this so you can see it - perhaps you can help? http://streetdemocracy.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/divide-rule.jpg The rules are to discuss then revert unless the addition is malicious or inaccurate. Bear in mind also that critiques by non masons are relatively fringe elements in society as the craft is virtually taboo My entry was based on a real conversation with a real freemason and, frankly, is a more common-sense interpretation of the divide and square rulers symbols. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyGosling ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
OK... I will give Tony some credit... he has at least tried to give us a source (his latest was this), and I thank him for trying. Unfortunately what he comes up with does not qualify as reliable. Tony... If you have not already done so, please read our guideline on Identifying reliable sources. It explains what type of sources are acceptable on Wikipedia, and what to avoid. You may also want to read our policy on Undue weight... we don't include fringe opinions if doing so would give them undue weight. Blueboar ( talk) 13:05, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Blueboar recently reverted an unreferenced edit mentioning Nüwa. We have some splendid images on file showing Nüwa and Fuxi with their lower bodies as serpent tails entwined, Nüwa holding compasses and Fuxi the square. Elsewhere, John of Gaunt's will (1399) mentions a bedspread embroidered with compasses. Is it worthwhile adding such material, or is there a critical mass that makes a new section viable? Fiddlersmouth ( talk) 01:37, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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We should probably add something about other groups who use or used the S&C such as the formewr United American Mechanics whose items are often seen on places like ebay mis-lableled as Masonic. I also once met a German tourist who was wearing a shirt with an S&C, a hammer and a saw. I inquired if he was a Mason. He informed me it was the logo of a German carpenters union. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.229.69 ( talk) 15:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
So is it proper for mechanices or machinist to wear this? I used to see alot of machinist wear the ring 20 years ago,but have not seen one since. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.155.86 ( talk) 17:01, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I was corrected on this recently myself - it's not a "compass" but rather "compasses". Shall we change the title? MSJapan 16:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes this is true. How do we go about changing the title? Jokerst44 16:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
As an Engineer with many hours as a (pre-CAD) Draftsman, I also choked on the use of the plural: Compasses vs. the singular: Compass for this singular instrument. It (like pair-of-pants?) seems strange and illogical to me. I've never heard the plural used as singular in years of practice. That said I'm simply questioning, (still researching) this odd and perhaps historic use. IF Freemasonry does use the plural for their symbol -- then it's use is appropriate in that article; but perhaps not here. Clarification anyone? HalFonts ( talk) 15:50, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
The reference cited doesn't say anything like what's in the article. Can we get some better sources for this? There's a lot more stuff out there on the S&C, but we need non-anecdotal and cited sources. MSJapan 16:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I have cut a lot of the speculation on the meaning behind the S&C... it was unreferenced, and thus amounted to Original Research. I have replaced that material with a few lines taken from the main Freemasonry page. There is still a lot of work to be done on this article. Blueboar 17:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
what's the G in the middle? -- CMG 14:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
In Irish Freemasonry, the G is spoke of as having a different meaning which is only disclosed to a Master entering the chair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.250.189.37 ( talk) 12:43, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Please provide the angle of the compass, does the angle have any importance? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.122.95.211 ( talk) 17:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Do the Square and Compasses have anything in common with the Star of David and the related Israeli flag ? If you look at it, it is really two triangles standing on each other that form two opposite, occult pyramids. ADM ( talk) 16:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
A few days ago, I 'accidentally' came across a Youtube video about Rastafari & Freemasonry that stated something about the Masons' square & compass that I hadn't heard before. Last night I confronted a 32 Degree Mason friend of mine at work with, "I read on an Internet post that the Masonic logo of the square & compass is so important to Masons because these were the tools of Jesus the Carpenter. Is that true?" "Of course! Why else would they be so obsessed with those tools? Because they were the tools of a carpenter - because they were Jesus' tools." Confirmation. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.121.70 ( talk) 15:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Blueboar, you're right about "youtube is hardly a reliable source", that is why I sought out a 32 Degree Mason for his very informed opinion. I made that clear, yet you missed that! I AM sure the 32 Degree Mason I talked to "was being serious". My quote of his was paraphrased, but the exact wording is not the issue. Everyone knows that "the square & compass are stonemasons' tools". Would a carpenter use them too? A good carpenter would. Even though the popular concept is that "Jesus was a carpenter", I personally agree with some scholars who believe the Greek word was mistranslated to "carpenter" and should be "teacher". Jesus was clearly a 'rabbi' which is Hebrew for 'teacher'. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 04:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I added the following... Thus, Freemasonry combines the belief in the unity of God and the study of science. (ref: Secrets of Founding Fathers, History Channel, [2009?]) - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 04:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
There is a dispute about this book being a reliable source of information for this article. A key factor in this dispute is a phrase in the preface of the book:
The dispute arrose over interpretations of these statements This book was and is published by the Supreme Council, Thirty Third Degree, of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction of the United States. In 2011, the book underwent revision by Arturo de Hoyos, 33°, G∴C∴, the Scottish Rite’s Grand Archivist and Grand Historian. The only changes were the addition of annotations. Plasmic Physics ( talk) 22:00, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Are these beliefs at odds with that of the rest of the Supreme Council? Plasmic Physics ( talk) 22:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Do they disagree with the above information? Plasmic Physics ( talk) 23:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Are they (SC) not a body of experts on freemason principles? Plasmic Physics ( talk) 01:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
What of this quote taken from Wikipedia: "The Scottish Rite is one of the appendant bodies of Freemasonry that a Master Mason may join for further exposure to the principles of Freemasonry." Plasmic Physics ( talk) 01:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Who can show that the information is wrong? Do you know of another 33 degree mason with a conflicting ideology? Plasmic Physics ( talk) 02:04, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually, it is an educated opinion; it is not one man's opinion, but an entire rite's opinion, a peer reviewed opinion. Plasmic Physics ( talk) 02:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The SC is the rite's representative, not their members. Plasmic Physics ( talk) 02:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Fine then, because I'm tired of argueing my case: at least grant me permission to add the information to the article of the book. Plasmic Physics ( talk) 04:29, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
User:TonyGosling seems instant on edit warring to keep the following line: "Some sceptics suggest the dividers above the square ruler symbolise Divide and Rule" citing this and this. In my opinion, both are unreliable conspiracy oriented fringe websites and mentioning what they say gives them WP:UNDUE weight. Tony... instead of edit warring, please discuss. Blueboar ( talk) 22:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
The references I have made both here and on the page itself are perfectly reasonable - first I cite a conversation with a freemason I personally had and second I show - in figurative terms - that someone on-line has actually corroborated that conversation and depicted the symbol about which the entry is based - A DIVIDER and a RULER in those same exact terms. Blueboar seems to be suggesting that the ideas of non masons or even anti masons are not accepted on Wikipedia? May I dare to suggest that it is in fact this anonymous user Blue Boar - who is simply reverting my additions with no proper explanation, citing quite in error that my edit is spurious and untreliable, thus creating an 'edit war' as he/she so puts it? Moreover in the existing entry the concept of the masonic symbolism is explained as not having a fixed definition. Openly inviting other explanations and this is by far more logical and reasonable that the explanation given in the entry to which Blueboar has reverted the page to. A clear breach of the rules here by Blueboar. Leave the rational, illustrated, edit be and perhaps - argue why several definitions including mine might or might not be true citing masonic and non masonic sources.
Not sure how many links I have to present to explain this is a perfectly legitimate view which ACCURATELY links in with the ACTUAL SYMBOLS and I'm rather irritated that you consider me as instituting an edit war because it was anonymous user Blueboar and another that began to instantly revert my addition without discussion on talk pages or the article page itself. I am new here but I recognise immediately that I am being accused of doing something which someone else began. not sure how to embed this so you can see it - perhaps you can help? http://streetdemocracy.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/divide-rule.jpg The rules are to discuss then revert unless the addition is malicious or inaccurate. Bear in mind also that critiques by non masons are relatively fringe elements in society as the craft is virtually taboo My entry was based on a real conversation with a real freemason and, frankly, is a more common-sense interpretation of the divide and square rulers symbols. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyGosling ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
OK... I will give Tony some credit... he has at least tried to give us a source (his latest was this), and I thank him for trying. Unfortunately what he comes up with does not qualify as reliable. Tony... If you have not already done so, please read our guideline on Identifying reliable sources. It explains what type of sources are acceptable on Wikipedia, and what to avoid. You may also want to read our policy on Undue weight... we don't include fringe opinions if doing so would give them undue weight. Blueboar ( talk) 13:05, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Blueboar recently reverted an unreferenced edit mentioning Nüwa. We have some splendid images on file showing Nüwa and Fuxi with their lower bodies as serpent tails entwined, Nüwa holding compasses and Fuxi the square. Elsewhere, John of Gaunt's will (1399) mentions a bedspread embroidered with compasses. Is it worthwhile adding such material, or is there a critical mass that makes a new section viable? Fiddlersmouth ( talk) 01:37, 6 January 2014 (UTC)