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been thinking about this after re-inserting it today, and have given second thought and will move to a separate article on the Legends of Vancouver book, giving a summary of its stories - as notable and iconic in the local cultural landscape (i.e. the white-cum-popularized First Nations cultural landscape), as well as certain other materials and non-native lore connected to the Squamish, OR thought to derive from them. I haven't written a Maj. Matthews bio article yet, but if there is one (doubt it) his material on Squamish legend, language and tradition is also worthy of note historically, although like Johnson likely held in low esteem by contemporary Skwxwu7mesh-ulh elders, politicians and scholars. Fine. On this page all there need be is a reference to the other article (be it a general article on local legends, or one on Johnson's booklet in particular, I haven't decided yet) and an appropriate comment as to their validity/status re Skwxwu7mesh-ulh studies. Matthews' books also feature plates of the archivist dressed in the Kahtsahlano chiefly regalia, as the chief himself could not be photographed wearing it; it happens to be him behind the lens of Matthews' camera...and his native placenames of Vancouver list may or may not be accurate, I wouldn't know. But I do submit that if Skwxwu7mesh-ulh want people to learn about the Skwxwu7mesh Uxmuimixw, instead of criticizing the existence of well-meaning if inaccurate renderings of their cultures, they should write better ones themselves, i.e. better in the sense of reaching the general public. And hopefully someone with as lyrical a sense of poetry and mystery told in such simple language as in Legends of Vancouver; her one story in there relating to a journey into my Lillooet Country is very evocative; an exotic eye on a familiar landscape, so much more on-point than Emily Carr's depressed musings on her visit. Whatever. But Johnson's book and her relationship to Joe Matthias are worthy of comment, as far as non-Skwxwu7mesh-ulh interests go (you can't decide what it is other people are interested in, after all, even if you do want to control what they can find and what they think of it); likewise Maj. Matthews and others writing from a context and era whose views/worldview may not be to your contemporary liking; the world is what it was, as well as what it is, after all... Skookum1 07:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The move is done. Go for it. Andrewa 06:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Also see First Nations in British Columbia as to how many articles there are yet to be done to "complete the roster" and also why there's a slightly different web for people/ethno and community and language article/categories; e.g. some organizations are jointly Carrier-Chilcotin, another I can think of is Carrier-Tsimshian (Gitksan-Wet'su-we'ten, that is), and there are others. I'd like your opinion on the issues raised on Somena and Talk:Somena, also, and advice on how to differentiate the Chehalis (tribe) article from a putative Chehalis people article for the Fraser Valley group, who though they are Halqemeylem speakers, are not part of the Sto:lo nor ever have been. Also about to do drafts on the Scowlitz Mounds (aka Fraser Valley Pyramids) and other stuff from a book I found at Bby PL People of Harrison. I'm interested in the history of the old Skayuks villages on the lower Stave, too (I was raised by Ruskin Dam; we used to have an old dugout on the river and played in the old orchard on the IR down the road...which was abandoned by then except for the non-native ex-husband of a native woman he'd outlived....Mr. Haines...I used to deliver his paper...in behind was a bit of old logging, with corduroy road, huge old second-growth we called "the Lost Forest"....apparently those reserves are Whonnock Band, which falls now under Kwantlen...? But was a separate group within the Sto:lo at one time....). Skookum1 06:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Occurred to me to dig to see what I could come up with on the Whonnock Reserve/Band. Back when I was in high school there were still some residents; including I think the Gongs, who were Chinese-Canadian and (I think) part Whonnock; I'll ask next time I'm out there one of the old-timers I know (we're old timers now, we were young punks back then...). Skookum1 06:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd be grateful for information/resources on the Chinook Jargon as it was used among the Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw, if you have any materials in your resources/library; see Talk:Chinook Jargon and also List of Chinook Jargon placenames, which I built; I'm an amateur chinookologist and although I haven't worked on my site in a while the Chinook Jargon Information Superhighway it's pretty thorough; but I've always wanted to find more from-BC materials on the CJ, instead of just Columbia River/stateside sources like Shaw, Gibbs, Harper, Pasco and El Comancho. All of which I've got on photocopy if you're interested by the way (Shaw is completely online via my site and others, though). Pe skookum mamook pe mahsh naika iktas, hyas mahsie! Skookum1 06:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
After searching for it, I found that there was no article for the language of the people. It isn't Helke7minem(sp?), or Shishilh (although more closely related to the latter) Create new article for Skwxwu7mesh Snichem? Yes, no? OldManRivers 07:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as I know, this was done by me. I didn't notice this till I was doing a link from the Lost Lagoon page, but the spelling of this page is wrong. Right now in "uxwumixw" there is an extra "i", after the "u". Also, in Skwxu7mesh, the "k" and "u" are supposed to be underlines. I understand the hardness of our own orthography, and the the importance of using the IPA. I apologize for the mix-up and spelling error.
Could we perhaps, create the page for "Sḵwxwú7mesh", with no "uxwumixw". This page would be about the culture, history, and everything, with Squamish Nation, to be the political indian act, band council, government. What do you think? OldManRivers 21:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Sḵwxwú7mesh snichim name | IPA | Location/IR | Location/town/city | older "official" spellings (anthropologists/linguists as well as other uses) | anglicized/archaic variants/adaptations | comments |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
eslha7an | "--IPA form here--" | Mission I.R No. 1 | North Vancouver | Uslawn, Uslahawn | ||
xwemelch'stn | "--IPA form here--" | Capilano I.R#3 | North Vancouver (Lions Gate) | Homulchesan, Whulmechosan | ||
chi'ch'elxwikw' | "--IPA form here--" | Seymour I.R. No.2 | Second Narrows, North Vancouver | (No local "English" name) | ||
xwayxway | "--IPA form here--" | Lumbermans Arch, Stanley Park | Vancouver | Qwhy-qwhy, whoi whoi, kwoi-kwoi | ||
senakw | "--IPA form here--" | Vanier Park (IR lands now located under Burrard Street Bridge) | Kitsilano | Snauq, Snawk | ||
schenks | "--IPA form here--" | Gibsons Landing I.R#26 | Gibsons, BC | (No local "English" name) | ||
chekwelhp | "--IPA form here--" | Gibsons Landing I.R | Gibsons, BC | (No local "English" name) | ||
k'ik'elxn | "--IPA form here--" | Port Mellon I.R. No.24 | (No local "English" name) | |||
kywetin | "--IPA form here--" | Kowtain I.R. No.17 | Garibaldi Highlands (Squamish) | Kowtain | ||
yekw'apsem | "--IPA form here--" | I.R. No.18 | (No local "English" name) | |||
wiwkem | "--IPA form here--" | Brackendale I.R. No.14 | Brackendale (Squamish) | (No local "English" name) | ||
chiyakmesh | "--IPA form here--" | Cheakmes I.R. No.11 | Brackendale (Squamish) | Cheakamus (IPA form here,"CHEEK-a-mus" | ||
t'ekw'takwemey | "--IPA form here--" | ((No local "English" name) | ||||
ch'wkech'ekts | "--IPA form here--" | ((No local "English" name) | ||||
puyam | "--IPA form here--" | (No local "English" name) | ||||
tsitsusem | "--IPA form here--" | Potlatch Creek, Howe Sound | (No local "English" name) | |||
sta7mes | "--IPA form here--" | Stawamus |
Skookum1 09:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Part of the point of this table is to x-reference possible redirects, i.e. Homulchesan should exist because people will find it in books, especially old books; likewise Whoi whoi and Qwhy-qwhy, w/wo hyphens; but all should be redirects to our Skwxwu7mesh snichim titled-page (see the various village and clan articles that branch off from Tsimshian, by the way....).
Don't mean to go on; if you like the table and made yer fixes, fire away and transfer it; but I'd say lose the grim-grey and try and come up with something, even just plain white; I'm not sure about lines around the boxes or not; not a template at all (I hate those purple-and-red colour schemae....) but more like a page/column layout; and maybe with pics.
Y'know what would be neat over time? Articles on each traditional foodstuff in each nation; what it was called, how it was prepared, what it's good for. Just a thought; First Nations recipes, as it were, or cuisine articles anyway. Might be interesting, huh? For someone, anyway (not me - just tossing over the idea for thought). Mmmmmm, xoosum - I miss it - never had the icecream version, though, not since I was a kid; still know what salal tastes like over all other berries....ever had hakwa7 (? might be xak'wac or something different in the new spelling). "Indian rhubarb". not sweet or ?? - more like a leafy green with a stalk, like dryland bok choy or something. Grows real big up on the Portage, and around Shalalth; more like lettuce or cabbage in taste, maybe like a kale sort of (?) Major foodstuff traditionally around there, not sure about down here....Still hoping someone from the Country of the Ochre River People (the English translation of Tsilqot'in qo=river, tsil-ochre tin=people, but maybe you knew that already....) will cough up the recipe to Itcha Mountain Fog; maybe the name's out of date, like a one-time joke when Paul St. Pierre wrote about it, but that whole country's changed, like all of this place I guess; but local uniquenesses of that kind would really bring out any article on any people; that's why I find the character stories like Nicola and Hunter Jack and Lolo/St. Paul and over into Gunanoot and Slumach as interesting; the trick with getting past the stub is to make sure that all the articles don't read alike, like a script; as is also the case with all the "regular" small towns and local societies/identities, e.g. Vernon, Penticton, PG, smalltowns, big towns, whatever). It shouldn't be all stats and policy histories; local colour's really important IMO. Anyway, g'nite and that's it or I'll ramble on more, and while I'm going on about things relevant to article content here, by way of direction and potential content (and sub-articles, as you've by now seen the range of individual and historical articles that any one First Nation's core page can link out to; even the Category:Gitxsan despite the lack of a real core article on government; and often a focus on the anthropologists connected with the group, rather than members of the group per se (interesting, no?). Anyway, g'nite - and twiddle with the table 'til you like its look (to fiddle with the colour, etc - snitch the code from other tables...); then just transfer it over; it may be better in the long run, as with the Nuu-chah-nulth page and elsewhere, for lists of placenames to be on the language page; although there has to be a listing of all main groups, obviously, and people have to know what they mean; in the long run the table hopefully won't dominate the page; maps, images, more write-up; this is just interesting to anyone from outside, so make it easy to read, I'd think, is the main goal. Unlike my rambles ;-) Skookum1 10:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
As for the language article, which I'll make the stub for just to get it rolling if you want, the article itself can carry the "snichim title" but the others should be listed (see Oowekyala language, for instance, or Wuikinuxv). Likewise the language article can have the "snichim title" (using "shorthand" here, sorry) but the alternates should be listed right away, and also bolded, esp. Squamish language but also Sko-ko-mish language not because they're correct but because they're usages people are going to find, and will look up; otherwise they'll wind up at Skokomish or Suguamish etc (dablines to and from those pages I'd also advise be made; don't assume Wikipedia's readers know something that locally is obvious; or usually is (I still come across things printed in modern times in the States where they think you guys and the Suguamish are the same people...). But go ahead and write the language article; I'd almost say Skwxwu7mesh snichim language is the most Wiki-proper title, but if "snichim" means "language" or "speech" I guess it's redundant, but only in an absolute sense; "Oowekyala" means "language of the Oowekeno" just as Kwakwaka'wakw dervies from Kwak'wala (for all I know "Oowekeno" means "people who speak Oowekyala"....Wuik'yala/Wuikyala vs. Wuikinuxv in that spellling form, which is the preferred one now); but the page nonetheless is named Oowekyala language so that people know it's a language page they're at...
Likewise Kwak'wala, which currently redirects to Kwakiutl language (gasp, but don't blame me, it was written by the Yinka Dene crowd, as far as I can tell, or by linguists anyway) and should be at least part of the title of a retitled page (based on your reasons as laid out, and well-known, from Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw and Talk:Kwakiutl); but Wiki-proper form the main article there should be Kwak'wala language; it can be Kwak'wala, but again it's clarity and "leading people by the nose" that is the goal of the encyclopedia, as well as "correct cultural representation". Whatever's chosen, Skwxwu7mesh snichim, Skwxwu7mesh snichim language, Skwxwu7mesh language or Squamish language (English names for aboriginal languages are a common format used elsewhere in BC, but not exclusively - that happens to be a redirect to Squamish language at the moment, but it shouldn't be in the long run),
The comparable form to Oowekyala language or St'at'imcets language would be, it seems Skwxwu7mesh snichim language, which is a mouthful (and hard to type, too ;-0) but whatever's chosen, just make sure it's "redirect hell", which all possible variations directing to whatever the main article is.....I'll help with the categories, or can kind of figure them out from looking at Nuu-chah-nulth language or Halkomelem language or whatever (more examples of the native-name-plus-"language" titling format...... Skookum1 10:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
All theoretical redirects known have been made; see Sḵwxwú7mesh language and use "What links here" in menu at left; if there's others just make them, or ask me to. Skookum1 02:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Uxwuimuxw should be defined/translated, by the way, and a discussion of the different contexts of -ullh and uxwuimuxw shoudl be made (and parallels in other Salishan languages, e.g. St'at'imcets has ucwimalcw I think); and English versions/translations of each provided; the dab line isn't enough to provide context for people from outside BC, and non-English should always be translated; Squamish people should redirect here btw, and if someone tried Squamish (tribe) (a common format in the states, it would come here, as opposed to Squamish Reservation (as an American might also type) and you' get the Indian Reserve; Squamish Nation goes there of course. I was thinking a map - ah, that was the other point from the Xwmelch'tsn page - a map of the village/names and their sites relative to both the modern Lower Mainland/Howe Sound map (i.e. streets, brigdes, the woiks), and also to the old pre-urbanization map; I can make it if you're not familiar how; but I don't have source map to work from; unless there's one the Uxwuimuxw would care to release to the public domain, which is another way to do it.. ?? Skookum1 11:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Just a reminder, it's good and OK to use the proper name of the language on any page, but you should always provide the conventional English form; this is why my comment about Squamish people being a different redirect than Squamish Nation. If I look for Palouse (tribe), for instance, I'd get Palus (which is how they spell it, vs the usual anglicization, which is allegedly from French, or similar enough to a French word to hvae been taken as such anyway; supposedly it means "rock standing up" and was a rock at the junction of the Snake and Columbia; but in French it means grassland. Anyway, when in Siwash Rock etc you give the "Sḵwxwú7mesh name" the text should still say in brackets "(Squamish langauge)" or just used Squamish people and link it through to Sḵwxwú7mesh. Remember you can't expect these spellings, especially with atypyical characters, to become readable easily to people from wherever else; it's good and necessary to have the correct traditional language, but as a frame of reference, if only a few times in the article, still use the older names, or the usual English phrase, directly linked to Sḵwxwú7mesh or in brackets after a usage of Sḵwxwú7mesh....in time the new, complex spellings will get absorbed; but if you force it on them in the absence of the usual variants, nobody will read it (and someone else will ultimately need/add it back in, since remember no one "owns" any article....). Skookum1 11:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I've seen maps of places on other sites of the traditional territory that are created on wikipedia. Does anyone know how to make these? And could we make one for this page. The BC Treaty Commission website has a picture of the boundries, and if you google search there are a couple ( like this one. It clearly identifies for people coming to the page. And underneith the picture there could be a little write up how land juristiction with the Indigenous people isn't how Western colonial understanding explains it. "Ownership" didn't exactly exist, but people just used the land. That the map isn't a definitive boarder of the territory, but that the Musquem, Tsiel-wau-tuth, Shishalh, Lil'wat, all had shaired boarders and used it. If I knew how to make it I would, but I don't. Anyone know how? OldManRivers 05:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Redlinked those because he, and the title/lineage, needs an article on a high priority basis; you know my sentiment is that the K-spelling be used rather than the more linguistically-correct X, as it's current in the local media and meant to be a First Nations-friendly version of Kitsilano; I've seen a Q-spelling too and h's in different place,s like -lahno, so all variants should be listed, and made redirects of including August Jack. But whatever the title chosen is, other variations should have redirects, no matter how obscure (so that if someone finds them in an old book or in the media, if they search Wikipedia they'll find them, although not necessarily at the spelling they looked up). I think I even made Hwistesmexte'qen as a redirect to Nicola, although in that case Nicola became as much his name as his given name (which is in Spokan, actually, not Nlaka'pamuctsn or Syilx'tsn) (if that doesn't work it's because I didn't spell it quite right) Skookum1 07:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
See notes on Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw. And speaking of which, shouldn't that page be merged with this one now? Not that a formal merge was posted, but this page is like a second (er, third) version of that one; notice you've been working on both; unless there's a valid reason - maybe lexical? - why the other should exist, it should probably only be a redirect to this one now, after its information is assimilated here anyway. Also I note [[ XwMuthkwium is a redirect to Musqueam Indian Band; I'm not prepped to write a separate Musqueam article under any spelling; can you, or do you know someone in Musqueam who might be into it? Skookum1 22:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
About Musqeam - that's the reason why a separate ethno article for Musqueam, parallel to Skwxwu7mesh. As for the Khatsahlano thing, that should be an article on the title/lineage; and have an individual article on each, with August Jack's as "August Jack Khatsahlano" as that is partly, sort of, his name in English as well; I don't think the parentheses are necessary, but maybe someone might have some different thoughts if you ask on the BC project talkpage. Skookum1 06:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
What's the story of the title of this article? The Squamish nation website spells it Sḵx̱úm̍ish (I'm not sure how well that's going to display here).
Also, I think I understand the distinction between this article and Squamish Nation, but why is there a third Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw article?— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 18:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The reason the redirect didn't work is that you left other text in the article after the code; I fixed it and posted all the old article material at Talk:Sḵwxwú7mesh/Uxwuimixw - that might get speedily-deleted so check it over pronto in case there's anything there that should be in this article. I'll ponder your potlach issues, and note the thing about past tense, which bothered me to but I never "went at it" on this article; don't forget to WP:BE BOLD if you see something like that; Given the centrality of the potlatch to BC First Nations peoples and history/culture here, I'd almost think the template might give this a "high" rating, rather than "mid"; but all that means, y'understand, is that high importance means there's a high priority on making it accurate, and something's only made out of what's put into it. Go for it on the potlatch article if you want; a FN point of view; just remember to not deleted other stuff, more like amend it to "so-and-so (source) believed such-and-so, but the First Nations perspective is that...." etc. More on this tomorrow; I've been out playing music and need to mellow out, and find some chow. Just remember not to hold their various mistakes and mistaken persepctives on someone; that they have one at all means they're interested at least, if not fully informed. That's your job. Skookum1 07:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't know it, but could someone help me get someone who does know it to help with the IPA stuff on this article. Thanks OldManRivers 05:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I've been slowly looking at this article, and Kwakwaka'wakw to fix up. Here is a list of things I've figured I'm going to get for the article:
Potlatch, organization, chieftaincy and chieftainship
Kinship
Food
Art, music, carving, design and weaving
History, origins, flood story, first contact(s), gold-rush, HBC
post contact history
Vancouver, Kitsalano, Gastown
It's a good list to start with, yeah? OldManRivers 20:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
been thinking about this after re-inserting it today, and have given second thought and will move to a separate article on the Legends of Vancouver book, giving a summary of its stories - as notable and iconic in the local cultural landscape (i.e. the white-cum-popularized First Nations cultural landscape), as well as certain other materials and non-native lore connected to the Squamish, OR thought to derive from them. I haven't written a Maj. Matthews bio article yet, but if there is one (doubt it) his material on Squamish legend, language and tradition is also worthy of note historically, although like Johnson likely held in low esteem by contemporary Skwxwu7mesh-ulh elders, politicians and scholars. Fine. On this page all there need be is a reference to the other article (be it a general article on local legends, or one on Johnson's booklet in particular, I haven't decided yet) and an appropriate comment as to their validity/status re Skwxwu7mesh-ulh studies. Matthews' books also feature plates of the archivist dressed in the Kahtsahlano chiefly regalia, as the chief himself could not be photographed wearing it; it happens to be him behind the lens of Matthews' camera...and his native placenames of Vancouver list may or may not be accurate, I wouldn't know. But I do submit that if Skwxwu7mesh-ulh want people to learn about the Skwxwu7mesh Uxmuimixw, instead of criticizing the existence of well-meaning if inaccurate renderings of their cultures, they should write better ones themselves, i.e. better in the sense of reaching the general public. And hopefully someone with as lyrical a sense of poetry and mystery told in such simple language as in Legends of Vancouver; her one story in there relating to a journey into my Lillooet Country is very evocative; an exotic eye on a familiar landscape, so much more on-point than Emily Carr's depressed musings on her visit. Whatever. But Johnson's book and her relationship to Joe Matthias are worthy of comment, as far as non-Skwxwu7mesh-ulh interests go (you can't decide what it is other people are interested in, after all, even if you do want to control what they can find and what they think of it); likewise Maj. Matthews and others writing from a context and era whose views/worldview may not be to your contemporary liking; the world is what it was, as well as what it is, after all... Skookum1 07:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The move is done. Go for it. Andrewa 06:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Also see First Nations in British Columbia as to how many articles there are yet to be done to "complete the roster" and also why there's a slightly different web for people/ethno and community and language article/categories; e.g. some organizations are jointly Carrier-Chilcotin, another I can think of is Carrier-Tsimshian (Gitksan-Wet'su-we'ten, that is), and there are others. I'd like your opinion on the issues raised on Somena and Talk:Somena, also, and advice on how to differentiate the Chehalis (tribe) article from a putative Chehalis people article for the Fraser Valley group, who though they are Halqemeylem speakers, are not part of the Sto:lo nor ever have been. Also about to do drafts on the Scowlitz Mounds (aka Fraser Valley Pyramids) and other stuff from a book I found at Bby PL People of Harrison. I'm interested in the history of the old Skayuks villages on the lower Stave, too (I was raised by Ruskin Dam; we used to have an old dugout on the river and played in the old orchard on the IR down the road...which was abandoned by then except for the non-native ex-husband of a native woman he'd outlived....Mr. Haines...I used to deliver his paper...in behind was a bit of old logging, with corduroy road, huge old second-growth we called "the Lost Forest"....apparently those reserves are Whonnock Band, which falls now under Kwantlen...? But was a separate group within the Sto:lo at one time....). Skookum1 06:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Occurred to me to dig to see what I could come up with on the Whonnock Reserve/Band. Back when I was in high school there were still some residents; including I think the Gongs, who were Chinese-Canadian and (I think) part Whonnock; I'll ask next time I'm out there one of the old-timers I know (we're old timers now, we were young punks back then...). Skookum1 06:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd be grateful for information/resources on the Chinook Jargon as it was used among the Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw, if you have any materials in your resources/library; see Talk:Chinook Jargon and also List of Chinook Jargon placenames, which I built; I'm an amateur chinookologist and although I haven't worked on my site in a while the Chinook Jargon Information Superhighway it's pretty thorough; but I've always wanted to find more from-BC materials on the CJ, instead of just Columbia River/stateside sources like Shaw, Gibbs, Harper, Pasco and El Comancho. All of which I've got on photocopy if you're interested by the way (Shaw is completely online via my site and others, though). Pe skookum mamook pe mahsh naika iktas, hyas mahsie! Skookum1 06:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
After searching for it, I found that there was no article for the language of the people. It isn't Helke7minem(sp?), or Shishilh (although more closely related to the latter) Create new article for Skwxwu7mesh Snichem? Yes, no? OldManRivers 07:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as I know, this was done by me. I didn't notice this till I was doing a link from the Lost Lagoon page, but the spelling of this page is wrong. Right now in "uxwumixw" there is an extra "i", after the "u". Also, in Skwxu7mesh, the "k" and "u" are supposed to be underlines. I understand the hardness of our own orthography, and the the importance of using the IPA. I apologize for the mix-up and spelling error.
Could we perhaps, create the page for "Sḵwxwú7mesh", with no "uxwumixw". This page would be about the culture, history, and everything, with Squamish Nation, to be the political indian act, band council, government. What do you think? OldManRivers 21:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Sḵwxwú7mesh snichim name | IPA | Location/IR | Location/town/city | older "official" spellings (anthropologists/linguists as well as other uses) | anglicized/archaic variants/adaptations | comments |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
eslha7an | "--IPA form here--" | Mission I.R No. 1 | North Vancouver | Uslawn, Uslahawn | ||
xwemelch'stn | "--IPA form here--" | Capilano I.R#3 | North Vancouver (Lions Gate) | Homulchesan, Whulmechosan | ||
chi'ch'elxwikw' | "--IPA form here--" | Seymour I.R. No.2 | Second Narrows, North Vancouver | (No local "English" name) | ||
xwayxway | "--IPA form here--" | Lumbermans Arch, Stanley Park | Vancouver | Qwhy-qwhy, whoi whoi, kwoi-kwoi | ||
senakw | "--IPA form here--" | Vanier Park (IR lands now located under Burrard Street Bridge) | Kitsilano | Snauq, Snawk | ||
schenks | "--IPA form here--" | Gibsons Landing I.R#26 | Gibsons, BC | (No local "English" name) | ||
chekwelhp | "--IPA form here--" | Gibsons Landing I.R | Gibsons, BC | (No local "English" name) | ||
k'ik'elxn | "--IPA form here--" | Port Mellon I.R. No.24 | (No local "English" name) | |||
kywetin | "--IPA form here--" | Kowtain I.R. No.17 | Garibaldi Highlands (Squamish) | Kowtain | ||
yekw'apsem | "--IPA form here--" | I.R. No.18 | (No local "English" name) | |||
wiwkem | "--IPA form here--" | Brackendale I.R. No.14 | Brackendale (Squamish) | (No local "English" name) | ||
chiyakmesh | "--IPA form here--" | Cheakmes I.R. No.11 | Brackendale (Squamish) | Cheakamus (IPA form here,"CHEEK-a-mus" | ||
t'ekw'takwemey | "--IPA form here--" | ((No local "English" name) | ||||
ch'wkech'ekts | "--IPA form here--" | ((No local "English" name) | ||||
puyam | "--IPA form here--" | (No local "English" name) | ||||
tsitsusem | "--IPA form here--" | Potlatch Creek, Howe Sound | (No local "English" name) | |||
sta7mes | "--IPA form here--" | Stawamus |
Skookum1 09:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Part of the point of this table is to x-reference possible redirects, i.e. Homulchesan should exist because people will find it in books, especially old books; likewise Whoi whoi and Qwhy-qwhy, w/wo hyphens; but all should be redirects to our Skwxwu7mesh snichim titled-page (see the various village and clan articles that branch off from Tsimshian, by the way....).
Don't mean to go on; if you like the table and made yer fixes, fire away and transfer it; but I'd say lose the grim-grey and try and come up with something, even just plain white; I'm not sure about lines around the boxes or not; not a template at all (I hate those purple-and-red colour schemae....) but more like a page/column layout; and maybe with pics.
Y'know what would be neat over time? Articles on each traditional foodstuff in each nation; what it was called, how it was prepared, what it's good for. Just a thought; First Nations recipes, as it were, or cuisine articles anyway. Might be interesting, huh? For someone, anyway (not me - just tossing over the idea for thought). Mmmmmm, xoosum - I miss it - never had the icecream version, though, not since I was a kid; still know what salal tastes like over all other berries....ever had hakwa7 (? might be xak'wac or something different in the new spelling). "Indian rhubarb". not sweet or ?? - more like a leafy green with a stalk, like dryland bok choy or something. Grows real big up on the Portage, and around Shalalth; more like lettuce or cabbage in taste, maybe like a kale sort of (?) Major foodstuff traditionally around there, not sure about down here....Still hoping someone from the Country of the Ochre River People (the English translation of Tsilqot'in qo=river, tsil-ochre tin=people, but maybe you knew that already....) will cough up the recipe to Itcha Mountain Fog; maybe the name's out of date, like a one-time joke when Paul St. Pierre wrote about it, but that whole country's changed, like all of this place I guess; but local uniquenesses of that kind would really bring out any article on any people; that's why I find the character stories like Nicola and Hunter Jack and Lolo/St. Paul and over into Gunanoot and Slumach as interesting; the trick with getting past the stub is to make sure that all the articles don't read alike, like a script; as is also the case with all the "regular" small towns and local societies/identities, e.g. Vernon, Penticton, PG, smalltowns, big towns, whatever). It shouldn't be all stats and policy histories; local colour's really important IMO. Anyway, g'nite and that's it or I'll ramble on more, and while I'm going on about things relevant to article content here, by way of direction and potential content (and sub-articles, as you've by now seen the range of individual and historical articles that any one First Nation's core page can link out to; even the Category:Gitxsan despite the lack of a real core article on government; and often a focus on the anthropologists connected with the group, rather than members of the group per se (interesting, no?). Anyway, g'nite - and twiddle with the table 'til you like its look (to fiddle with the colour, etc - snitch the code from other tables...); then just transfer it over; it may be better in the long run, as with the Nuu-chah-nulth page and elsewhere, for lists of placenames to be on the language page; although there has to be a listing of all main groups, obviously, and people have to know what they mean; in the long run the table hopefully won't dominate the page; maps, images, more write-up; this is just interesting to anyone from outside, so make it easy to read, I'd think, is the main goal. Unlike my rambles ;-) Skookum1 10:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
As for the language article, which I'll make the stub for just to get it rolling if you want, the article itself can carry the "snichim title" but the others should be listed (see Oowekyala language, for instance, or Wuikinuxv). Likewise the language article can have the "snichim title" (using "shorthand" here, sorry) but the alternates should be listed right away, and also bolded, esp. Squamish language but also Sko-ko-mish language not because they're correct but because they're usages people are going to find, and will look up; otherwise they'll wind up at Skokomish or Suguamish etc (dablines to and from those pages I'd also advise be made; don't assume Wikipedia's readers know something that locally is obvious; or usually is (I still come across things printed in modern times in the States where they think you guys and the Suguamish are the same people...). But go ahead and write the language article; I'd almost say Skwxwu7mesh snichim language is the most Wiki-proper title, but if "snichim" means "language" or "speech" I guess it's redundant, but only in an absolute sense; "Oowekyala" means "language of the Oowekeno" just as Kwakwaka'wakw dervies from Kwak'wala (for all I know "Oowekeno" means "people who speak Oowekyala"....Wuik'yala/Wuikyala vs. Wuikinuxv in that spellling form, which is the preferred one now); but the page nonetheless is named Oowekyala language so that people know it's a language page they're at...
Likewise Kwak'wala, which currently redirects to Kwakiutl language (gasp, but don't blame me, it was written by the Yinka Dene crowd, as far as I can tell, or by linguists anyway) and should be at least part of the title of a retitled page (based on your reasons as laid out, and well-known, from Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw and Talk:Kwakiutl); but Wiki-proper form the main article there should be Kwak'wala language; it can be Kwak'wala, but again it's clarity and "leading people by the nose" that is the goal of the encyclopedia, as well as "correct cultural representation". Whatever's chosen, Skwxwu7mesh snichim, Skwxwu7mesh snichim language, Skwxwu7mesh language or Squamish language (English names for aboriginal languages are a common format used elsewhere in BC, but not exclusively - that happens to be a redirect to Squamish language at the moment, but it shouldn't be in the long run),
The comparable form to Oowekyala language or St'at'imcets language would be, it seems Skwxwu7mesh snichim language, which is a mouthful (and hard to type, too ;-0) but whatever's chosen, just make sure it's "redirect hell", which all possible variations directing to whatever the main article is.....I'll help with the categories, or can kind of figure them out from looking at Nuu-chah-nulth language or Halkomelem language or whatever (more examples of the native-name-plus-"language" titling format...... Skookum1 10:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
All theoretical redirects known have been made; see Sḵwxwú7mesh language and use "What links here" in menu at left; if there's others just make them, or ask me to. Skookum1 02:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Uxwuimuxw should be defined/translated, by the way, and a discussion of the different contexts of -ullh and uxwuimuxw shoudl be made (and parallels in other Salishan languages, e.g. St'at'imcets has ucwimalcw I think); and English versions/translations of each provided; the dab line isn't enough to provide context for people from outside BC, and non-English should always be translated; Squamish people should redirect here btw, and if someone tried Squamish (tribe) (a common format in the states, it would come here, as opposed to Squamish Reservation (as an American might also type) and you' get the Indian Reserve; Squamish Nation goes there of course. I was thinking a map - ah, that was the other point from the Xwmelch'tsn page - a map of the village/names and their sites relative to both the modern Lower Mainland/Howe Sound map (i.e. streets, brigdes, the woiks), and also to the old pre-urbanization map; I can make it if you're not familiar how; but I don't have source map to work from; unless there's one the Uxwuimuxw would care to release to the public domain, which is another way to do it.. ?? Skookum1 11:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Just a reminder, it's good and OK to use the proper name of the language on any page, but you should always provide the conventional English form; this is why my comment about Squamish people being a different redirect than Squamish Nation. If I look for Palouse (tribe), for instance, I'd get Palus (which is how they spell it, vs the usual anglicization, which is allegedly from French, or similar enough to a French word to hvae been taken as such anyway; supposedly it means "rock standing up" and was a rock at the junction of the Snake and Columbia; but in French it means grassland. Anyway, when in Siwash Rock etc you give the "Sḵwxwú7mesh name" the text should still say in brackets "(Squamish langauge)" or just used Squamish people and link it through to Sḵwxwú7mesh. Remember you can't expect these spellings, especially with atypyical characters, to become readable easily to people from wherever else; it's good and necessary to have the correct traditional language, but as a frame of reference, if only a few times in the article, still use the older names, or the usual English phrase, directly linked to Sḵwxwú7mesh or in brackets after a usage of Sḵwxwú7mesh....in time the new, complex spellings will get absorbed; but if you force it on them in the absence of the usual variants, nobody will read it (and someone else will ultimately need/add it back in, since remember no one "owns" any article....). Skookum1 11:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I've seen maps of places on other sites of the traditional territory that are created on wikipedia. Does anyone know how to make these? And could we make one for this page. The BC Treaty Commission website has a picture of the boundries, and if you google search there are a couple ( like this one. It clearly identifies for people coming to the page. And underneith the picture there could be a little write up how land juristiction with the Indigenous people isn't how Western colonial understanding explains it. "Ownership" didn't exactly exist, but people just used the land. That the map isn't a definitive boarder of the territory, but that the Musquem, Tsiel-wau-tuth, Shishalh, Lil'wat, all had shaired boarders and used it. If I knew how to make it I would, but I don't. Anyone know how? OldManRivers 05:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Redlinked those because he, and the title/lineage, needs an article on a high priority basis; you know my sentiment is that the K-spelling be used rather than the more linguistically-correct X, as it's current in the local media and meant to be a First Nations-friendly version of Kitsilano; I've seen a Q-spelling too and h's in different place,s like -lahno, so all variants should be listed, and made redirects of including August Jack. But whatever the title chosen is, other variations should have redirects, no matter how obscure (so that if someone finds them in an old book or in the media, if they search Wikipedia they'll find them, although not necessarily at the spelling they looked up). I think I even made Hwistesmexte'qen as a redirect to Nicola, although in that case Nicola became as much his name as his given name (which is in Spokan, actually, not Nlaka'pamuctsn or Syilx'tsn) (if that doesn't work it's because I didn't spell it quite right) Skookum1 07:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
See notes on Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw. And speaking of which, shouldn't that page be merged with this one now? Not that a formal merge was posted, but this page is like a second (er, third) version of that one; notice you've been working on both; unless there's a valid reason - maybe lexical? - why the other should exist, it should probably only be a redirect to this one now, after its information is assimilated here anyway. Also I note [[ XwMuthkwium is a redirect to Musqueam Indian Band; I'm not prepped to write a separate Musqueam article under any spelling; can you, or do you know someone in Musqueam who might be into it? Skookum1 22:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
About Musqeam - that's the reason why a separate ethno article for Musqueam, parallel to Skwxwu7mesh. As for the Khatsahlano thing, that should be an article on the title/lineage; and have an individual article on each, with August Jack's as "August Jack Khatsahlano" as that is partly, sort of, his name in English as well; I don't think the parentheses are necessary, but maybe someone might have some different thoughts if you ask on the BC project talkpage. Skookum1 06:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
What's the story of the title of this article? The Squamish nation website spells it Sḵx̱úm̍ish (I'm not sure how well that's going to display here).
Also, I think I understand the distinction between this article and Squamish Nation, but why is there a third Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw article?— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 18:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The reason the redirect didn't work is that you left other text in the article after the code; I fixed it and posted all the old article material at Talk:Sḵwxwú7mesh/Uxwuimixw - that might get speedily-deleted so check it over pronto in case there's anything there that should be in this article. I'll ponder your potlach issues, and note the thing about past tense, which bothered me to but I never "went at it" on this article; don't forget to WP:BE BOLD if you see something like that; Given the centrality of the potlatch to BC First Nations peoples and history/culture here, I'd almost think the template might give this a "high" rating, rather than "mid"; but all that means, y'understand, is that high importance means there's a high priority on making it accurate, and something's only made out of what's put into it. Go for it on the potlatch article if you want; a FN point of view; just remember to not deleted other stuff, more like amend it to "so-and-so (source) believed such-and-so, but the First Nations perspective is that...." etc. More on this tomorrow; I've been out playing music and need to mellow out, and find some chow. Just remember not to hold their various mistakes and mistaken persepctives on someone; that they have one at all means they're interested at least, if not fully informed. That's your job. Skookum1 07:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't know it, but could someone help me get someone who does know it to help with the IPA stuff on this article. Thanks OldManRivers 05:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I've been slowly looking at this article, and Kwakwaka'wakw to fix up. Here is a list of things I've figured I'm going to get for the article:
Potlatch, organization, chieftaincy and chieftainship
Kinship
Food
Art, music, carving, design and weaving
History, origins, flood story, first contact(s), gold-rush, HBC
post contact history
Vancouver, Kitsalano, Gastown
It's a good list to start with, yeah? OldManRivers 20:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)