This article is overwhelmingly comprehensive, especially under "Publication history" > "Creation". Is all this detail necessary? Or is there a way of presenting it in a way that can be absorbed by the general reader?
This article is over wikilinked. Please read
MOS:LINK#Overlinking_and_underlinking. In general, a word or term should be wikilinked only at the first mention, maybe twice if the next mention is far away in the article body. Also, common words that would be known by English speaking readers should not be wikikinked.
I also wonder if the headings are correct for the content.
Publication history
Creation
Commercial success
Fictional character biography
Power and equipment
Enemies
Supporting characters
Cultural impact
In other media
As far as I understand it, these headers are fairly standard and most of them are in common use on WikiProject Comics articles using its own
exemplars. I'm not sure what else we would call them. :)
BOZ (
talk)
03:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)reply
The usual "Critical reaction" or something similar is missing. I realize that it follows the structure of
Batman (FA in 2004) and
Superman (FAR 2007) but it needs focusing and perhaps updating.
True. I'm not sure what I can add to build that up. Do you mean like a finding an actual review, where someone will say "I thought this comic was... In my opinion this character seems to be..." like that sort of thing? To be honest, I'm not sure what to do to find this sort of content, and am kind of hoping for other people to help out and pitch in. :) If it's up to me alone to get this one ready for GA, I've probably bitten off more than I can chew. ;)
BOZ (
talk)
03:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Also, there are whole sections that are not referenced, like the whole "Powers and equipment" section and almost all of "In other media".
Condensed and added a source to the powers: I'm about to condense the Media, but a source will still be forthcoming (hopefully).
BOZ (
talk)
02:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Comments
Your references are in disarray. You need to use a uniform reference format that includes publisher, pages numbers and access date (if a web reference) and ISBN if a book. See
Reliable sources,
Citing sources,
Footnotes. You are already using templates for the Reference section. See
Citations of generic sources. This is very important.
I just want to be clear that this is a Good Article review and not a Featured Article review, because consistency of reference style is not typically a cause to fail a Good Article, certainly not in my experience and not based on the criteria, or the review guidelines.
HidingT15:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)reply
That is much much better. Probably more should be under "Cultural impact - all the innovations in sidekick stuff, etc. mentioned somewhere above. However, I am hesitant to say this article does not meet GA, although imperfect. —
Mattisse (
Talk)
01:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Publication history
I think there was something of a feeling that the Publication history could actually be more detailed and expanded. :) I'll see if there's a way that I could simplify it further.
Also, I think Hiding reduced the overlinking fairly well. I'll have a look into the rest as I can.
BOZ (
talk)
23:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I guess you are right that more detail in the publication history is wanted. Perhaps if you organize it so the general reader doesn't get lost. Critical impact I agree needs more. (I had asked the editor to eliminate some of it, but you are saying the opposite?) —
Mattisse (
Talk)
02:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
The new breed of heroes etc. sounds very relevant for "Critical impact". What I asked the editor to condense was a lot of detail on how the original concept was developed among several people. It was rather confusing as there were so many different names and lines of argument involved. If you think this was a mistake on my part, please look at a recent version in the history, before the editor condensed. I would not want valuable information left out because of my suggestions. —
Mattisse (
Talk)
03:40, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I think the extra detail is needed, but it might need reorganization. The problem is the creation has taken on a sort of life of its own; there's Stan Lee's version of it, Stan Lee's remembered version of Stan Lee's version of it, disgruntled artist version of it, not quite as disgruntled artist version of it... it's a messy remembrance. Perhaps it should be segregated into the "official" story, with contrast from Ditko, Kirby? I'm not sure. It might just need more sort of "say it slowly" sentences so that people who don't know as much about the comic can follow along easier. You're right the balance is off though--there's more for the creation of the character than the 40+ years that came after in the rest of publication history. There's been two reboots of the franchise, and according to sources at the New York Comic-Con he's about to be spun off to a new label; there's lots to talk about. --
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (
talk)03:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Yes, I agree with that. It was very confusing to me (Stan Lee's remembered version of Stan Lee's version of it, disgruntled artist version of it, not quite as disgruntled artist version of it...) but if this is part of the important "lore" or history, then if it can be put in a form that can be followed by readers like me, that would be fine. —
Mattisse (
Talk)
04:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I'll absolutely confess that my first few times reading it definitely confused me as well, and it took a few read-throughs to make sense of it. :) Maybe a more obvious flow would be Lee's version first (he got the impetus to make a character, took his idea to Goodman, Goodman agrees, talks with Kirby, then works with Ditko), then the involved Kirby's rebuttal, then the uninvolved Simon's rebuttal? Having Kirby refuting Lee right off in the first paragraph is probably what throws people off, so some reorganization might be sufficient. I can give that a try, and we'll see.
BOZ (
talk)
15:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Wow, awesome! :) Thanks for the review. It looks like we have quite a bit to fix before trying to get this one to FA!
BOZ (
talk)
20:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)reply
This article is overwhelmingly comprehensive, especially under "Publication history" > "Creation". Is all this detail necessary? Or is there a way of presenting it in a way that can be absorbed by the general reader?
This article is over wikilinked. Please read
MOS:LINK#Overlinking_and_underlinking. In general, a word or term should be wikilinked only at the first mention, maybe twice if the next mention is far away in the article body. Also, common words that would be known by English speaking readers should not be wikikinked.
I also wonder if the headings are correct for the content.
Publication history
Creation
Commercial success
Fictional character biography
Power and equipment
Enemies
Supporting characters
Cultural impact
In other media
As far as I understand it, these headers are fairly standard and most of them are in common use on WikiProject Comics articles using its own
exemplars. I'm not sure what else we would call them. :)
BOZ (
talk)
03:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)reply
The usual "Critical reaction" or something similar is missing. I realize that it follows the structure of
Batman (FA in 2004) and
Superman (FAR 2007) but it needs focusing and perhaps updating.
True. I'm not sure what I can add to build that up. Do you mean like a finding an actual review, where someone will say "I thought this comic was... In my opinion this character seems to be..." like that sort of thing? To be honest, I'm not sure what to do to find this sort of content, and am kind of hoping for other people to help out and pitch in. :) If it's up to me alone to get this one ready for GA, I've probably bitten off more than I can chew. ;)
BOZ (
talk)
03:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Also, there are whole sections that are not referenced, like the whole "Powers and equipment" section and almost all of "In other media".
Condensed and added a source to the powers: I'm about to condense the Media, but a source will still be forthcoming (hopefully).
BOZ (
talk)
02:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Comments
Your references are in disarray. You need to use a uniform reference format that includes publisher, pages numbers and access date (if a web reference) and ISBN if a book. See
Reliable sources,
Citing sources,
Footnotes. You are already using templates for the Reference section. See
Citations of generic sources. This is very important.
I just want to be clear that this is a Good Article review and not a Featured Article review, because consistency of reference style is not typically a cause to fail a Good Article, certainly not in my experience and not based on the criteria, or the review guidelines.
HidingT15:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)reply
That is much much better. Probably more should be under "Cultural impact - all the innovations in sidekick stuff, etc. mentioned somewhere above. However, I am hesitant to say this article does not meet GA, although imperfect. —
Mattisse (
Talk)
01:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Publication history
I think there was something of a feeling that the Publication history could actually be more detailed and expanded. :) I'll see if there's a way that I could simplify it further.
Also, I think Hiding reduced the overlinking fairly well. I'll have a look into the rest as I can.
BOZ (
talk)
23:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I guess you are right that more detail in the publication history is wanted. Perhaps if you organize it so the general reader doesn't get lost. Critical impact I agree needs more. (I had asked the editor to eliminate some of it, but you are saying the opposite?) —
Mattisse (
Talk)
02:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
The new breed of heroes etc. sounds very relevant for "Critical impact". What I asked the editor to condense was a lot of detail on how the original concept was developed among several people. It was rather confusing as there were so many different names and lines of argument involved. If you think this was a mistake on my part, please look at a recent version in the history, before the editor condensed. I would not want valuable information left out because of my suggestions. —
Mattisse (
Talk)
03:40, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I think the extra detail is needed, but it might need reorganization. The problem is the creation has taken on a sort of life of its own; there's Stan Lee's version of it, Stan Lee's remembered version of Stan Lee's version of it, disgruntled artist version of it, not quite as disgruntled artist version of it... it's a messy remembrance. Perhaps it should be segregated into the "official" story, with contrast from Ditko, Kirby? I'm not sure. It might just need more sort of "say it slowly" sentences so that people who don't know as much about the comic can follow along easier. You're right the balance is off though--there's more for the creation of the character than the 40+ years that came after in the rest of publication history. There's been two reboots of the franchise, and according to sources at the New York Comic-Con he's about to be spun off to a new label; there's lots to talk about. --
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (
talk)03:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Yes, I agree with that. It was very confusing to me (Stan Lee's remembered version of Stan Lee's version of it, disgruntled artist version of it, not quite as disgruntled artist version of it...) but if this is part of the important "lore" or history, then if it can be put in a form that can be followed by readers like me, that would be fine. —
Mattisse (
Talk)
04:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I'll absolutely confess that my first few times reading it definitely confused me as well, and it took a few read-throughs to make sense of it. :) Maybe a more obvious flow would be Lee's version first (he got the impetus to make a character, took his idea to Goodman, Goodman agrees, talks with Kirby, then works with Ditko), then the involved Kirby's rebuttal, then the uninvolved Simon's rebuttal? Having Kirby refuting Lee right off in the first paragraph is probably what throws people off, so some reorganization might be sufficient. I can give that a try, and we'll see.
BOZ (
talk)
15:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)reply
Wow, awesome! :) Thanks for the review. It looks like we have quite a bit to fix before trying to get this one to FA!
BOZ (
talk)
20:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)reply