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This article might need to be reverted to an earlier version, due to edit for the stage of training at 4 weeks.
Who wrote this?:
The Special Air Service (SAS) is the best commando-elite unit in the world except for the Israeli commando unit "Sayeret Mat'kal".
What a stupid thing to say, is there any proof of this ?, when have the Israli forces ever proved themselves as good as the SAS.
Its wrong to say that any special forces unit is the number 1 best unit in the world. There is no way of completly knowing for sure. Most keep their training and tactics secret anyway. The SAS have been around since World War 2 and have earned their reputation if other special forces can prove themselves then fair enough. But you really can't say one is entirely better than another.
You could look into it in more detail and explain how different special forces are better in different areas.
Ok I'm new to this. I just noticed that the Republic of Ireland was left out as a country to join from. Many people make the mistake of assuming The Republic of Ireland is in the commonwealth which is false. Anyway that's it.
Former Trooper
I don't know if anyone holds this information who could post it here, but I think a greater expansion on details about entrance, training and selection to the SAS(R) would be a good addition to the article, given that you can join straight from civilian life ( http://www.army.mod.uk/uksf/). Also relating to this, the SAS(R) men are presumably not as highly trained etc. as the regular SAS regiment (as you must undergo further training and selection to pass from SAS(R) to SAS, and those in SAS(R) have no prior army experience), so perhaps a greater expansion (if possible) on what type of roles they can fulfill would be useful, as this isn't fully covered by the list of roles covered by the regular regiment, SAS 22.
Perhaps the link to the SAS(R) recruitment page should be posted too in the 'links' section.
Why aren't these external links : http://home.hccnet.nl/22.sas/ and http://www.sasrogues.co.uk/video/video.htm accepted ? I added them twice and twice they were removed. The first link is an excellent site - very well done, good layout and all. The second has interesting video clips. Yosy 00:15 September 15 2006 (UTC)
i think the term battle space is abit odd, i appreciate its on of these new techno warfare terms, but what does it mean in reality? i'm not in the military and thus have no idea what the term means, could it be replaced with more easily understood terminology.
One should read about the Special Air Service, there are many books on it. I've just read about SAS, Behind Enemy Lines, it's a rather exciting book. At the end of Chapter 02, the books describes how David Stirling (the founder of SAS) got captured by the unit's Dental Doctor. Well, it's a really enjoyable book, so I would like you to read it. It's by Will Fowder and it includes other books at the end of the book.
What is CT? - Patrick 14:22 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)
I moved the following list from the main article here, as it seems to be not so relevant. --Lorenzarius
Add name here if you were in the special air service
Name reg' number
I've deleted the names, PERSEC and to a certain extent OPSEC, plus even if those details are real they are probably not from the men themselves. - Red7
(these aren't British army soldier numbers, what are they?)
It seems unlikely that the SAS accepts members from 'the entire world'. Don't you have to be a member of the British Army before you can apply? DJ Clayworth 21:00, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
He could be referring to Commonwealth members, who can join the British Army, and as such the SAS. Red7 15:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The SAS doesn't deal in "terrorism". However, it is highly likely that it, like all counter-terrorism forces, deals with assassination. Of course, that's only an allegation... just like gravity is only a theory. ugen64 21:49, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just what colour is the boathouse at Hereford? (I'm kinda guessing there isn't one) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:35, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
>They have been part of every major British conflict since World War Two< Not so, they were reformed for the Malayan emergancy and had no involvement in the Korean war which the Brits had some serious involvement in.
>They destroyed an Argentine submarine in Cumberland Bay,< My understanding is that was a Wasp helicopter from HMS Endurance that attacked the Sante Fe and that it was damaged, not destroyed.
> Bravo Two Zero. The books, Bravo Two Zero by Andy McNab and The One That Got Away by Chris Ryan differed in the details of the mission.< I'm not sure what these incredible works of fiction written under pseudonyms are doing in a factual account in an Encyclopaedia.
>The SAS Selection is the toughest selection procedure of any Special Forces team in the world.< This statement is partisan and is offered without any support or qualification. Indeed it's questionable if SAS selection is 'tougher' than that of even other British formations including the Royal Marines SBS and Brigade Recce Group (formerly Mountain and Arctic warfare Cadre) let alone the rest of the World! < No, it is the toughest in the world!
>Apparently the more conventional officers in the British army do not much appreciate the "unruly" SAS members. During operations, SAS troopers and their officers are sometimes known to call each other by their first names! < This sort of trite, tabloidesque trivia should be removed as it adds diddly squat. For one thing it was common for British soldiers from line regiments of the British Army including the Ulster Defence Regiment and Royal Marines in Northern Ireland to call officers by their first name on operations.
Finlay I think that your suggestion is good and the way to go, 'A SAS in popular culture' section as a 'bucket' for the myths, legends and tabloidesque ‘noise’ surrounding the British SAS. That would leave the main section to contain a more dispassionate, level headed overview more fitting for an encyclopedia. I'll leave you to create it and move stuff around unless you want me to do it? User Nick_in_South_Africa
Oh and this page does need lots of work, partly content and partly the clunky style that's a little 'cheesy' in places IMO. Ive started by updating the Northern Ireland stuff under Counter Terrorism, it would be good if different eyes could proof read it. I have a little concern over the number of Arconyms I've used and if this makes reading it painful....feedback? Nick_in_South_Africa.
Finlay, the British SAS have probably along with the Israeli Sayeret Matkal the best combat record of any special forces unit in the world. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that their training is the toughest in the world. I'm not sure what the problem is with that statement. Serbitar 06:08, 20 Jun 2006
In the list of operations section at the end, suggest removing the raids not conducted by the SAS, and the SAS raids in the duplicate section on the British Commandos page. Or do people feel there is any merit in this duplication? CVA
Hope the respective dedicated pages are more concise now. A separate page that list 'all' operations would probably be too long. Their were far more organisations than just the Commandos, SAS and SBS. Again one factor is that some appear not to be aware of is that ‘The’ Commandos were a specific force. Probably victims of their own success, it was their style, manner and activities which popularised the term ‘commando’ in the English and other languages. Hence people, and the media, may refer to a ‘commando raid’ or an action being carried out by ‘commandos’ in reference to style or manner but not actually meaning the force of that name.
‘The’ Commandos in W.W.II fought in some 147 actions, but, there were many more ‘commando’ engagements by other ‘commandos’. For example, in the Far East came about the Small Operations Group comprising COPP 7 and 8 (Combined Operations Pilotage Party), 60 men of the SBS, Royal Marine Detachment 385 and the Sea Reconnaissance Unit. SOG mounted around 170 operations, while in the same theatre were 3 Commando Brigade with Nos. 1, 5, 42 and 44 Commandos, and the Dutch Troop of No.10 (IA), then later No.45 Commando, without mentioning the Australian commandos, or men there earlier like Burma II Commandos, V Force, Force Viper and Commandos who volunteered for Mission 204 with the Chinese. CVA 05:03, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What about Northern Ireland? They killed a decent number of IRA men in hits —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.140.61 ( talk) 23:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
On the whole this is a good article, although it needs some copyediting to tighten up some of the writing. I've got a few minor NPOV issues with this article - not enough to make a fuss, but enough to raise them.
In later years there was much made in the press about SAS deployments to the Province, but this publicity bore little resemblance to the actual tours of duty by SAS squadrons having more to do with government propaganda and press speculation. - this is a statement of fact which we cannot be certain of. Needs to be rewritten from a neutral stance. There are a number of similar statements of "fact" which are either not known or cannot be rigidly verified - we need to take a less committed tone here as well. Manning 23:48, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)
Bartlett You're absolutely correct on the tone, even though these are facts and quite well documented, and in the public domain, as indeed is almost all of this article. But candidly I aint gonna bother to throw time at the problem and dig up references, why not just go in there and edit for tone?-- Nick-in-South-Africa 21:49, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Isn't a little POV to speak of the SAS's "penchant for killing unarmed republicans"? Suggest "reputation" rather than "penchant". Efortune 12:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Many SAS men, although forbidden to follow suspects into the Republic of Ireland, nevertheless did so. Some were caught and arrested by Irish police. Controversially, they were rarely charged with firearms offences, but were returned to the British authorities. Is this speculation or fact. It probably true but other than the incident when the soldiers were fined are there any other documented instances. Irish Republicans is too general a phrase but it'll be hard to find a npov alternative. Terrorists will get up some peoples noses just as freedom fighters will annoy others; also exactly how many people killed by the regiment has it actually been proved were unarmed, and known to be so, when killed?
From the 2003-2005 section: After the September 11, 2001 attacks, the SAS (the FIRST force to enter Afghanistan, many months before the U.S. ever deployed), along with the Australian SAS, were involved in silent operations in Afghanistan (Most of which were secretive, until their successful outcomes,after which the U.S. would take the credit). [...] The SAS helped with storming the flats in West London and are believed to have fired several shots in the process. However, nothing was truly "seen" and they remain the silent professionals and the world's top special force (the predecessor of all others). This seems incredibly POV. I get the impression the bolded passages was added by some fanboy to emphasise the superiority of the SAS. The somewhat inferior phrasing certainly suggests it. I would edit it myself, but I'm still somewhat of a WP noob, so.. :) -MMad
Can we remove the picture that claims to be of SAS soldiers storming the Iranian Embassy? That photo was not taken at the embassy...it seems to have been taken during training somewhere (most likely the Killing House in Hereford). I was at the Iranian Embassy in early December 2005 and there are no bricks visible on the building but there clearly are in that photo. Also, there is no grass either in front of, or behind, the building but grass is clearly visible in that photo. One last point...none of the soldiers who stormed the embassy did so from the ground. They either entered through windows at the front or from skylights in the roof. That photo was not taken at the embassy and should be removed. --
colchar 02:25, 9 March 2006
Now, I have to say, I always understood that Delta Force was largely based on the SAS. Certainly, a number of books I have read present this view. And take this quote from the article on the founder, Charles Beckwith: "Delta Force was formed partly in response to growing terrorist actions worldwide, and on Beckwith's own experiences when cross-training with the British SAS years earlier." -- Necrothesp 09:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't think we need to take too much notice of someone who doesn't know the difference between 'your' and 'you're'
-SEAL TEAM SIX NO LONGER EXISTS, MOSTLY DUE TO DICK MARCINKO.-
Whoever this Alkivar character is. I think that you need to stop believing everything that you hear from the U.S. military friend. I served in the U.S. army for 23 years. 8 in regular army and the rest in special forces where I received my delta credentials for 10 years. The Detatchment D is very highly based off of the SAS and we train with them on a regular basis to keep up our standards. I was there, anything else that you read or hear is garbage
It's many years since I read Charles Beckwith's book (Delta Force(?) ISBN 0380809397) but I seem to remember him describing his period with 22 SAS, being wounded in Malaya(?) and writing a paper proposing the setting up of a similar organisation in the US military. It was ignored until there was interest after a terrorist incident and he got the go ahead to form Delta Force then. It seemed to be directly related to his experiences with 22 SAS. -- jmb 21:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
If the MP5KA4 is the standard weapon of CRW, why do none of the CRW photos support this declaration? Also can it truely be said that the SAS has a standard weapon? Ben W Bell 13:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The MP5KA4 isn't the standard weapon of the CRW team, It is There own personal choice such as MP5A3/ MP5A2. The MP5K wouldn't be used because it is design to be a PDW that can be concealed and be used at a very short range.
MP5A4? I thought those SAS troopers were actually using MP5A3 since their MP5s has a retractable stock instead of a fixed buttstock? Eikichi 00 14:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Special Forces units are never so predictable as to use the same weapon over a long period of time. The MP5 is reliable and is favoured by the SAS. Many believe that they use it all the time due to the publicity the SAS received after the Iranian embassy incident and the revelation that the MP5 was used there. But they use different weapons in different situations. Since the 80s, newer, better SMG/PDWs have been developed, such as the MP7A1 and the P90. SMGs are most effective indoors; carbines and assault rifles are [generally] better all-weather weapons, and a documentary a few years back noted the SAS regularly practice and operationally use a range of sniper rifles, such as the L115A1 and L96A1.
"Officers serve only a term of four years" "New members are on probation for a period of four years". Has to be something wrong here. DJ Clayworth 13:50, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My understanding is that NCOs who join are on probation for their first four years. Officers are not, because they only serve four, as opposed to an NCO who could serve as much as fifteen or so. Geoff B 07:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Officers serve for three year terms and are then required to return to their parent outfit (helps to spread experience throughout the army). They can come back for another term with the SAS later in their careers. Normally they command a troop in their first term of service and a squadron during their second. There are some exceptions to this as DLB served virtually his entire career with the SAS. colchar 13:31, 4 February 2006
The beret colour seems to be referred to as "sand" or "beige" in about even numbers. We should mention both. DJ Clayworth 14:40, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised we don't have articles on the Australian and New Zealand Special Air Services, linked from here. Anyone? DJ Clayworth 14:42, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
B1link82, exactly what is your objection to stating that the beret is sometimes called the beige beret?
DJ Clayworth 16:42, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The article states that only members of the British Army or the RAF Regiment can apply to join the SAS. However, the 2002 Navy Officer's Career Regulations (which seem to have disappeared off the MoD site, annoyingly enough) explicitly state that "[m]embers of the RN and RM may volunteer to serve in both the Special Boat Service (SBS) and Special Air Service (SAS)".
They also strongly imply that members of RAF units other than the RAF Regiment can apply ("Both the SBS and SAS conduct a number of briefings to RN, Army and RAF units designed to give personnel an insight into each unit, how best to prepare for UKSF [United Kingdom Special Forces]..."; [emphasis added].) Anyone know for sure? — Franey 15:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Members of the Royal Marines have served with the SAS since the 1970s. In his autobiography, The Killing Zone, Harry McCallion refers to a marine nicknamed 'Nasty Neil' who would later serve with him in the SAS. colchar 13:31, 4 February 2006
At least a dozen Royal Marines served with Special Boat Squadron, 1 SAS and subsequently Special Boat Service commanded by Jellicoe and then Sutherland. Nominal rolls are given in end of war disbandment schedules held by The National Archives in the UK. 81.19.57.130 11:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
84.65.183.7, please don't start the edit war over the beige beret again. It is frequently known as the beige beret and always has been. Also, please don't delink things just because they're red - red links will eventually lead to articles and turn blue. Finally, it is standard formatting in Wikipedia to put disambiguation links (in this case to the Australian and NZ SAS) at the top of the page. Thanks. -- Necrothesp 21:17, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Can you please try and make your edits at the same time, not one edit continually after the other, it makes it much easier to tell what has changed instead of looking through dozens of smaller edits. Also if there is something you are not sure of then don't put it in, don't add it and then put a comment saying you're not sure about it. Ben W Bell 08:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I seem to remember that the SAS is sometimes referred to as just "Special Air" within the one part or other of armed forces? Any truth in this? - max rspct 20:56, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I think so, although everyone I knew in the army called it the "sass".
Geoff B 07:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Ah well, there's none of those in the Army. Geoff B 20:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
No no no it's The Regiment!! All the wannabes call it "sass" but everyone else i know calls it the Regiment. No mistake. the Regiment, not "sass," "hereford" or "special air".
The conventional riposte was always: 'There is Brown 'sass' and a Tomato 'sass'[add to list to taste] but there is only one SAS; with each letter pronounced separately. In just the same way as the RAF once insisted-It's not 'raf' it's R A F and say the same for R A F Regiment. 81.19.57.130 13:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Some rubbish written here, after serving in the UK Forces I can state that the SAS are more commonly referred by regular forces as 'sass',never The Regiment ,as stated earlier this would would only ever refer to the speakers own regiment.Also people that use such terms as 'Walts' are 99% certain to be 'Walts' themselves and are trying to give themselves a little kudos by applying such terms as only the SAS themselves would ever use that term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.97.9.194 ( talk) 23:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"Soldiers will learn to live, fight and survive in the jungle, and will have to take care of every cut, scratch, blister, and even eating equipment, as it could easily get infected." Their eating equipment could get infected? I don't think that's what the author was trying to say... This sentence really needs to be rewritten (don't wounds always have to be taken care of?) but I'm not quite sure what it should say. -- JdwNYC 17:18, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
i see yoour point there. nice way of putting it unlike some people on here. what ti means is that even the tiniest scratch need looking after, mos tpeople will get a cut and just leave it but in the jungle it could get infected - houghone! thanks
Bold textsoem other guyBold text SBS is based in poole on a small island, thought you might want to know, may hel por something :)
Cuts and sores left untreated in a jungle environment become tasty landing strips for the female Bottfly, which will lay its eggs in the wound. The larvae are barbed and cannot be removed completely. The larvae eat human flesh until they turn into mature flies and buzz off (literally). Treat those wounds when you're in the jungle, kids! Oh, and don't even THINK about eating monkey meat. The SAS found that out the hard way in Central Africa.
The history of the SAS is not wholly British, although some Angophiles would like ir to be. It is closely associated with the LRDG, which, in 1941, at the time when the SAS was formed, was entirely made up of NZ troopers. Later around 1942, some Rhodesians and British soldiers joined. The LRDG was the idea of a British officer, true. But then Z force was an American idea. But the Americans would never claim Z force to be an American unit. Z force is clearly Australian. The whole article about the SAS is heavily biassed towards the British. There is hardly any mention of the French, Australian, New Zealand and most of all Scottish involvement in the SAS. Wallie 09:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The OP clearly has a chip on his shoulder and is in dire need of an education. The very fact alone that he has proven incapable of differentiating between Britain and Scotland proves this as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.255.151 ( talk) 21:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Somebody keeps removing the list of SAS Battle Honours. Let's get this straight. Battle Honours are official. They are awarded by the Crown. The SAS has been awarded these Battle Honours and no others. Whether you agree or disagree with the list is not the point - the fact remains that these are their Battle Honours. -- Necrothesp 23:58, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Could User:Hammersfan explain why he reverted the nice, clear list of Battle Honours to a single clumsy line? -- Khendon 06:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Never used the editing thing before so forgive me if this is the wrong place. The SAS was involved in the Dhofar War in the Sultanate of Oman. The wiki atricle should mention this (unless it does and i missed it :/). I believe that Victoria cross was awarded to one of its members during this camgaign. Just a thought.-- Discojim 13:40, 14 August 2006
No VC has ever been awarded to an SAS soldier. There is, however, a campaign by some former members to have a soldier who served in Oman awarded a VC because, at the time, his actions were only acknowledged with an MID (because the war was, technically, a secret). But you are entirely correct that they did serve there (briefly in the 1950s and again in the 1970s).--
colchar 11:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The above post is incorrect. The VC was awarded to Major Anders Lassen in Italy in 1944 and is counted as the 'first SAS VC'. Anders Lassen was a Danish national. He was commissioned as an officer in The Buffs (As the sovereign of Denmark is the Colonel of the Regiment) subsequent to operations with SOE. He transferred to 1 SAS and was in 'D' Sqn which became Special Boat Squadron. Special Boat Squadron, 1 SAS formed the nucleus of the new Special Boat Service in the Middle East when 1 SAS at squadron strength as SRS (Special Raiding Squadron) returned to the UK for reformation for ops in North West Europe. SBS- a war-formed regiment of GHQ, ME - continued to wear the cap badge and wings originated with 1 SAS and was brigaded in 'Raiding Forces', ME with the LRDG and others. The brigade equivalent force of the Raiding Support Regiment (RSR)and Popski (PPA), etc all wore the SAS parachute wing. 81.19.57.130 16:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Could whomsoever explain why they have reverted the battle honours sub section to a previous version which has incorrect data? I reshuffled the section to read, in time order, from the present to the past and corrected the mis-stated World War 2 honours, grouping them generally and specially; having verified all from a reputable current published account as well as from the original policy files in the UK National Archives and the HMSO published lists. I also put the 2006 published ref in the references section. How much more does anyone have to do to persuade you crackerjack to stop your ill-considered edits?
I wouldn't know and I haven't vandalised anything. But I see the piece has re-reverted to the first version which is wrong because it rams together honours which are actually separated. My attempt wasn't pretty in layout, due to inexperience, but it was right. Could someone please recover this and do a better job? 81.19.57.130 13:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following assertions from the opening paragraph:
— Franey 10:13, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
--22nd SAS is a regiment. What you are referring to (a group of regiments) is a Brigade...officially known as the SAS Brigade. colchar 11:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Why must the killing of the unarmed IRA members in Gibralter be justified with a comparison to the IRA. The IRA were supposed to be terrorists. Surely using their actions as a comparison means the same criticisms could be levelled at the SAS?
ALso with reference to "22 SAS's reputation, or rather mystique, grew to the extent that during the Balcombe Street siege, the IRA surrendered once the SAS deployment was publicised. Considering the SAS's reputation, this was probably a pragmatic move on their part."
This could be lifted staright from an Andy McNab novel - stick to facts not mythology.
I have changed the lines which refer to Robert Nairac as being an SAS officer. He was not. Someone changed it back so I fixed it again. Nairac was not in the SAS...he was in 14th Int. For proof of this check Ken Connor's Ghost Force, Anthony Kemp's SAS: Savage Wars of Peace, Tony Geraghty's Who Dares Wins, Barry Davies' Heroes of the SAS, Peter MacDonald's The SAS in Action, and Nigel McCrery's The Complete History of the SAS. Please stop changing it to refer to Nairac as an SAS officer when the available evidence clearly proves that he was not.
colchar 13:44, 4 February 2006.
As a historian I must look at sources critically so I am well aware of the bias that exists in certain texts. But all of the books on the SAS openly discuss those members of the regiment who were killed in NI (Al Slater, Westmacott, etc.). Why, if they talk about those who did die in NI, would they lie about Nairac? In addition, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, we are forced to accept the evidence that is available. The evidence available states that Nairac was not SAS so we must accept that. If evidence to the contrary is provided the conclusion can then be re-evaluated...but not until new evidence comes to light. Also, while the special forces may be secret, a lot of what is written in these books isn't. And these authors have been banned by the MOD because of it. Based upon that I don't think these books are fabrications (unlike books such as Bravo Two Zero and The One That Got Away which were largely fabricated). I also know a former member of 14th Int and I've asked him about Nairac. He claims that Nairac was definitely from 14th Int and not from the SAS. Last, but not least, Nairac isn't buried in the regimental plot at St. Martin's Church in Hereford which is the regimental graveyard, nor is he listed on the clock tower at their base (the names of all members of the SAS who die on operations are inscribed there). colchar 16:25, 4 February 2006.
'Proof' might have been too strong a word. The most reliable evidence available claims he was 14th Int but you're right, proof probably isn't the right word to use. I'll change it in the morning.
colchar 1:54, 5 February 2006
The article says the SAS assisted in the operation to free Norman Kember in a raid in Iraq on the 23/03/06, at present according to all news reports this is only speculation and authorities have refused to confirm wether or not this is the case. This should therefore be removed until it has been confirmed the SAS were involved.
Could we stop the back and forth pissing contest aboud which special forces group is the best? Thanks. MKV 06:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
In practise, this is of no significance, as a unit as a secretive as the SAS would never be involved in a formal parade.
I note that there is a tag on the training section suggesting it be split out into a discrete article, but no corresponding discussion. I'm not going to hunt down how long it's been there for. Since Selection is now a joint activity for SAS and SBS then it makes sense to split it out, snag is I don't know the break point at which one can then elect to go on to SBS selection. Is it after badging for those choosing to remain SAS or not? From media comments it appears that SRR training is not common with SF selection, but there may be areas of commonality. It would slim the article down a bit. ALR 13:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The SF wings badge is now used by SBS as well, at least during the early stages of Op Oracle, which was about the time the Squadron was upped to Service etc. Not out of the question that's when it started. I can't document that but I see it quite frequently and they're generally referred to as SF wings rather than SAS wings. ALR 14:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The wings, or officially, 'parachute qualification badge' ceased to be unique to 1 SAS on the formation of 'Raiding Forces' in the Middle East in 1943. By arrangement all parachute qualified men serving with this roughly brigade equivalent unit and sub branch of GHQ, MEF were awarded them. The badge ceased to be issued with the disbandment of the Regiment although men 'in possession' could and did continue to wear them as a matter of course. Broadly the same design of badge was re-instituted with the reformation of the Regiment for wear by those serving with it. The regulations for wear and the design patterns have been varied over the years. The first 'SF' wings actually bore those letters and were worn by the men and women of the Jedburgh teams, so is also alluded to as 'Jed wings'. The pattern fell out of use with their disbandment. 81.19.57.130 13:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I just came to this page while I was researching a few things, and I had a few problems with the grammer and tone, especially in the 'Boat Troop' section, which I edited. Over the whole article, there seems to be occasional slips into jargon and a style that seems a bit Bravo-two-Zero, which might be fine if you're up on the subject, but for a layperson like me, it just becomes annoying, and seems out of place in an encyclopedia. I'm not trying to be too critical, the article as a whole reads well - I don't want to step on any self-confessed experts toes, just attempting make it easier to understand. I'm putting it in the talk page as I think the whole article needs some subtle tweaking just to help improve its readability. I'll just include some of the changes as examples, sorry if I've gone into a lot of detail over what are cosmetic changes, it's just I get the feeling those who've written this page will be pretty exacting when it comes to technical details, and I wouldn't want to confuse anything.
"Troopers will also learn how to handle certain types of boats. Fast patrol boats have a fibreglass hull with an inflatable lip over the top to increase it bouyancy and allow for better manoeuvrability. Rigid Raider boats have also been around for a long time. These are large boats often used to help carry larger amounts of people or cargo to the shore. Also in use is the Gemini inflatable boat. It is used primarily for sending small groups of soldiers onto a shore undetected."
Don't understand the need to explain the inflatable lip and the bouyancy thing - it has no relevance to the SAS, so took it out. The boats being 'around for a long time' means very little. Just shifted this whole paragraph around a bit, removed a lot of the closely repeated words, so:
"Troopers also learn how to handle certain types of boats. Gemini inflatable boats are used primarily for sending small groups of soldiers onto a shore undetected. Fibreglass hulled Rigid Raider fast patrol boats are larger, and are used to help carry more people or cargo to the shore."
" Demolitions is also a big part of diving. The soldiers must be able to stop a ship or blow up a bridge. Navigation underwater is also taught. All navigation is done using a compass. Being lost underwater, in hostile territory is not a good day. The men also practice heliborne entry into the water. A helicopter some 50 feet above the water will go into a hover and the men will simply jump out . Parachute drops in the water are also very common. The soldiers have to seal their weapons to avoid them getting a jam. This is normally done with a "dry bag"."
"Locking out of submarines is also taught. This is very dangerous. At certain depths the pressure could kill the trooper, if the cold, lack (or excess) of oxygen or nitrogen narcosis doesn't get to him first. While the SAS would probably not be called upon to assault an oil rig or take down a ship, these are still practiced. When performing these operations, the men usually wear dry suits so that they don't come down with hypothermia. Long rope-type ladders (commonly referred to as Jacob's Ladders) are attached to a ship or oil rig using a telescopic pole. The assault team will then use the ladders to gain entry. Snipers are usually put on smaller boats near the target (usually smaller ships to hide among regular sea traffic), or they may be left in the boats to provide security, or they can even be flown in quickly via helicopter as the assault begins. Assaults like these will usually be carried out by members of the SBS."
"Demolitions is a big part of diving. The soldiers must be able to stop a ship or blow up a bridge. Underwater Navigation using a compass is also taught. The men practise heliborne entry into the water. A helicopter will hover some 50 feet above the water, and the men will simply jump out . Parachute drops into the water are also very common. When in water, the soldiers weapons must be sealed to prevent jams. This is normally done with a "dry bag".
Deployment from submarines is also taught. This is very dangerous, given the pressure at certain depths, the cold, and the risks inherant in relying on breathing equipment while underwater (such as nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity). When performing these operations, the men usually wear dry suits to ward against hypothermia. Long rope-type ladders (commonly referred to as Jacob's Ladders) are attached to a ship or oil rig using a telescopic pole. The assault team will then use the ladders to gain entry. Snipers are usually put on smaller boats near the target (usually smaller ships to hide amongst regular sea traffic), or they can even be flown in quickly via helicopter as the assault begins. Though the SAS would probably not be called upon to assault an oil rig or a ship, they are still trained for it. Assaults like these would usually be carried out by members of the SBS."
The section on troops was added to this article only very recently and was formerly a separate article largely written by someone who has since left Wikipedia after numerous edit wars over his POV SAS fandom. That's why it was so unencycopaedic. So it does need some severe editing. Cheers. -- Necrothesp 10:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to start edit warring over it, but wholesale removal of fact tags is inappropriate and not particularly constructive. Some of the requests were for material which is reasonably well accepted however could be described as unsubstantiated puffery without some form of referencing, the others were cruft unless sunstantiated. The whole portfolio of UK SF related articles leaves something to be desired, substantiating things will improve that. ALR 11:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
ALR , Necrothesp and Yorkshire Phoenix - unfortunately this is an article where myth, fantasy and small kernels of truth are easily interwoven, embellished, and even fabricated. I agree with Necro's instinctive distate of fanboy cruft - and I'm sure ALR holds the same view. So where do we go from here? I believe we must allow you 3 chaps to keep the idiots at bay, and as ALR says - we need substantiated links if this article is to survive and be of worth. Would I be permitted to sweep through the article and highlight those 'factoids' that are total tosh and then report back? I don't pretend to be a Wiki guru, but I do know about the subject at hand. Phoenix - thanks for helping with those images, by the way - I'm all fingers and thumbs!!! Darth Doctrinus 19:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe special forces selection has been standarised throughout UKSF. The Selection and training section should therefore be split with the common UKSF element moved to either United Kingdom Special Forces or a new special forces selection article with the section in this article taking over from the point where the SAS candidates split from the remainder of UKSF and thus start their actual "SAS training". The remaining section in this article would obviously reference and link to special forces selection, wherever it is. Does anyone disagree? Yorkshire Phoenix ( talk) 12:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I've requested a view from the WP:RS people about the Specialoperations web site as a source, whilst it contains some reasonably accurate content, the majority is grossly inaccurate fanboy cruft, so I'm wary about using it. The Santa Clara University student personal webspace would constitute a personally published site and is not considered reliable since it lacks peer review. A pity because it's probably better written than specialoperations. I'll let this discussion run for a day or two before deleting it though. Notwithstanding that I think Peter Radcliffes book probably has enough detail to be considered a source, I'm just not sure whether it constitutes reliable or not. Does his status as a former LE Major within the Regiment give him more credibility than some of the other 'authors' on the subject? I used to have a copy, not sure if I still have it so I'll need to dig around. ALR 08:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I've moved the following claim from the article to here.
The capbadge itself is embroidered in colour (silver/white, Oxford and Cambridge blue, etc) and this is also how the insignia appears in other places I have seen it (such as a stained glass window in the B Sqn, 23 SAS all ranks bar. I'm assuming good faith and working on the assumption that the editor means collar dogs, etc: except I though they were brass (or rather staybright, but gold in colour). Yorkshire Phoenix 10:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The capbadge is in natural colours and is worked thread in cloth. It is now available in two versions in British service, the second version being an officer's pattern 'puffed version' worked in silver wire. All metal cap badges have never been worn by the British regiments except for silver metal badges introduced for the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II for the Guard of Honour provided by 21 SAS (Artists) on route lining detachment. The cap badge is invariably represented as metallic or in gold and silver by the designers of illustrations for the media who like this kind of iconography. The badge and design itself is of utilitarian cloth intended to neither catch nor shine in wear and is as it is because it was possible for the original Detachment to have badges made up by a British firm of taylors in Cairo and for all ranks to pay for their cap badges and wings themselves with coming to the official notice of the Army authorities until after the insignia had been taken into use and unremovable by 'right of battle' so to speak. 81.19.57.130 12:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
To the unhelpful individual who reverted this page to the Army website page version of the capbadge. Would you please just stop and engage brain. There was discussion here about what was and wasn't correct and somebody then supplied an image of the cloth cap badge as issued and as worn. So why on earth is it better to substitute a drawing (and an incorrect one at that) of this, even if it does come from MODUK?
Somebody has, yet again, reverted this page to the incorrect representation of the capbadge. The page had an actual cloth capbadge, as issued on it in settlement of this line of debate, so why have we now gone back to misinformation again? I've deleted the .gif simply because it is wrong. I hope that somebody with the skill I do not currently possess will restore the correct capbadge representation to this page. 80.254.147.68 12:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I've slimmed down the organisaiton section and tried to improve the wording a bit. This is an excerpt which I'll put in training later:
All SAS members have to pass a rigorous selection procedure, but due to the part-time nature of the TA, the selection process for members of 21 SAS and 23 SAS is stretched over a period of over a year. Signallers must also undergo a similar selection process to become Special Forces Communicators, however this concentrates on strategic and tactical SF communications rather than the advanced military skills of SAS troopers. citation needed
ALR 16:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
From mobility Troop to History
During
Operation GRANBY, the British involvement in the 1991
Gulf War, the motorbikes proved invaluable. On one occasion a patrol behind enemy lines was spotted by Iraqi forces who immediately sought to escape. The SAS pursued them until outriders pulled in front of the Iraqi trucks making them stop. When the rest of the patrol engaged the trucks, two outriders got caught in the cross fire, one of whom died. For his actions, Corporal Denbury was posthumously awarded the
Military Medal.
ALR 20:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
A former FBI hostage negotiator hawking his book on Talk of The Nation said "No lie until the last lie" comes from the SAS and relates to being honest until you distract him to kill him. -- Gbleem 19:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone help me with some background history to a man who is commonly known as the godfather of the SAS? His name was Major/Quartermaster Tom Burt. I know he was stationed at Wivenhoe Park, Essex during the second world war and I believe he died in the 70's. Any info would be gratefully received. Thanks Tiggywinkle 18:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Major Tom Burt was awarded the MBE, along with Major 'Bill' Barkworth for their services with the SAS in World War 2 and subsequently with the SAS War Crimes Investigation Team from March 1946 which was commanded by Barkworth from inception until disbandment along with the War Crimes Investigation branch, North West Europe of 21 Army Group (subsequently BAOR: British Army of the Rhine). KeepSureSilence 81.19.57.130 12:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history#Popular_culture is that these sections should not be allowed to cruft up the article with every appearance of the topic. With that in mind I'm intending on removing the pop culture section, perhaps replacing it with a paragraph drawing attention to the phenomenon. The only important aspect is the books by various former personnel, everything else is just noise. ALR 11:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi I just added a bit about the SAS Survival Guide, by John Wiseman Karate freak 22:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I think despite what many people think, Call of Duty 4 should be included in the popular culture section, think about it, about 80%(estimation) of the missions are based on the SAS, and plus in light of what some have said about the pop culture being a large part of the SAS' identity alot of the people i know (including me) didnt even know the SAS existed until Call of Duty 4 was released. Maxtitan 16:59, 18 March 2008
I'm confused as to why the history section is now partway through the description of the Regiment currently? I'm not overly comfortable about bringing it further up the page without significant rework, it's turgid and text densse at the moment. Notwithstanding that it would be useful to do something about it, and bringing the issues about the province into the section are useful. ALR 18:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Always thought that the sword on the cap badge was that of Damocles not Excalibur? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.57.72 ( talk) 00:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
Hi what SAS stuff do you know that might be interesting for me to know —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.42.87.107 ( talk) 17:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
Whilst I note that you appear to have strong feelings about the use of the Regminet emblem on the article persistent deletion is probably not the best approach. If you can provide a photograph of the cap badge that would be extremely useful, but until then a drawn representation seems perfcetly reasonable. Please discuss on the article talk page to reach an consensus decision. ALR 14:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
This page has got to be easily the worst entry I have ever read in Wikipedia. As Wikipedia is intended as an encyclopedia it is clearly inappropriate to include such poorly drafted speculation and inacurate conjecture which comprises the sections dealing with recent events and training and selection.
The author/s of these entries are clearly not aware of the detailed information available through the MOD with regard to UKSF selection and training. Anyone attending the SF briefing course would be aware of this. The author/s sources, if indeed they have any, appear to have been drawn from tabloid newspapers and other unreliable publications.The entry for Mountain troop training illustrates this particularly well as does the reference to SBS selection.
Furthermore the author/s cannot comment with any certainty about recent UKSF operations since as correctly mentioned in the article all members of UKSF sign a confidentiality agreement which prevents any discussion of current or past UKSF operations and as also pointed out in the article the MOD does not comment on them either. Hence any references to recent operations are not from reliable sources and should be excluded from this article as unreliable speculation.
The internet is full of innacurate web pages devoted to the worlds various SF units and it is not something that Wikipedia should mimic. It is a fact that there is little available, detailed, verifiable information about current and recent UKSF operations and thus the entry in Wikipedia should reflect this. If this results in a brief article so be it. Better that than some adolescent, barely disguised, fan site.
I have one. My father was a member of the original SAS. I am new to this service so if someone tells me how to post a photo I will take a picture of it and I will post it. SAS2 10:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)in memory of a great man. Who Dares Wins! JAH
Can't someone going into a museum and take a picture of the cap badge to stop all the bickering over whether or not a drawing is right or not. There must be one somewhere that one can be photographed to end it all. -- jmb 16:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
You are overly hopeful as to effective dating (For reasons set out below) and we are still not addressing the fact that the current badge drawing that some seem wedded to without warrant is incorrect because it clearly shows gold or metal flames. As far as I am aware (and it was my duty as well as an interest to care about this sort of thing for several thousand hours of effort, because, yes, I was once entitled to wear this badge during my British Army service) there is now no drawing, original depiction or written or oral account of how the cap badge came into being. There are, unpublished, undated, private photos, which I have seen and do not have consent to publish to the world, of the original badge design competition which show the idea worked out in whitewashed stones at the entrance to the camp at Kabrit. There is a consensus published both to the world and privately to past and present members of the regiment that the cap badge design is attributable as stated in the article under reference and the same for the parachute qualification badge attributed to John Lewes. We know how the design was first implemented because there are at least 8 public domain photographs of known or attributable dating of David Stirling wearing the 'Arthur's sword' cloth badge and also of the design worked as a painted badge, complete with the Crusader shield background, on the door of his 'blitz buggy'. Other photographs, of similar verifiable provenance, published to the world show cap badge variants in wear on blue side cap or beret of white, sand, red (maroon) or beige, successively. Unpublished, private photographic portraits, hand coloured with great skill by Cairo photo shops also show the colours and threading.There are a number of specialist published books which show scalable photographs of variant patterns of the badge as worn during World War 2 and after the re-formation of the regiment in the UK and in Malaya and demonstrate that, as the badge was only ever produced by copying from cloth examples, over time the overall proportions of the shield, weapon and scroll have changed from a clear depiction of a Roman gladius pattern to a dagger. Dating of variants is problematic because they are all based on oral testimony and usually without collateral paperwork. When the cap badge was used as a sign on vehicles, after the capture of David Stirling it is depicted in white, shows only the weapon, wings and scroll on a square background because that was British Army regulations for a formation sign borne on vehicles. Post-war, in the UK, sticky back, printed transfer (or decal if you prefer the US term) versions of the badge in light blue and white were sometimes used and applied on the doors of third line vehicles. It is therefore the case that the cap badge , per se, is of cloth, the Crusader shield is integral to the depiction and the colours of red, two tone blue and white with a bladed weapon of Roman pattern are the defining characteristics of the British Army badge. Other variants in metal or gold or silver are either special purpose; as in for particular forms of dress or are those taken into use by the regiments and units that derive from the British original.That is why the depiction on this problematic and not particularly good article should be improved by somebody with the competence to do this that I presently do not possess, but in any event the incorrect depiction should be taken down because it is misleading and incorrect. 81.19.57.130 16:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
At the moment this leaves a lot to be desired, and given that the history of military units bores me mindless I have no intention of raking around to improve it. In it's entirety it is unreferenced and as such liable for deletion. I will mark it as unreferenced, give it a couple of weeks and then delete it if nobody can provide some substance. In terms of style it is written in schoolkid english, as highlighted above the recent operations material is pretty fanboyish and could use some sensible referencing. I've got rid of copies of various memoirs which I had in the past which could provide some reliability to the material on selection etc so it would be useful if someone else could skim the material and reference it, we might need to caveat with the selection and training only being good to 1997 when they memoirs stopped. ALR 21:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry ALR but in my code of conduct your comment At the moment this leaves a lot to be desired, and given that the history of military units bores me mindless I have no intention of raking around to improve it. In it's entirety it is unreferenced and as such liable for deletion. rules you out as a fit and proper person to make decisions about this mess of pottage. If this bores you mindless why don't you point your unquestioned competence and expertise at something that does engage you and leave others to fix it? The problem with this topic (and Wikipedia in general I suspect, subject to whatever anyone else may wish to say with greater expertise and knowledge) is that we lack protocols that routinely enable verification and authentication without providing return addresses or other tracers. I personally decline to provide tracers because of my background; because it might bring either myself or others for whom I am responsible or owe a duty toward into hazard and because I don't want to incur the obligation of responding to all and anyone to my disbenefit. I can and have re-written some of this site in a self-evidently checkable form and making references to facts which can be checked for accuracy. I have done so because this is a forum devoted to knowledge for its own sake and not from a particular point of view, although we can, of course, never escape having one. All that appears to me to have happened so far is knee jerk reversion to previous edit on the basis of what appears to be a misapplied belief either in the veracity of published sources or an overwheening sense of unchallengable editorial judgement. At several thousand hours of effort on this topic, some of which is in the public domain, I can say that the published trail on the history of this Regiment up to the time of the Falklands is riddled with easily avoidable factual error and deliberate, as well as inadvertant, mis-statement about facts events and persons, from the first officially authorised history onwards, which are only now becoming verifiable for what they are as the mosaic of British official records, of a stunning and complex array of privacy and security markings are downgraded and released to public scrutiny. I am somewhat entertained to see that data I have supplied to the BBC, under legal conditions of all due diligence and despatch coupled with source anonymity conditions and subsequently used by that organisation in its output in many forms have been incorporated into this page but without reference, or the references have been deleted! 81.19.57.130 16:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Your own perosnal 'code of conduct' has no place on Wikipedia. Please be civil, remember verifiability, that paragraphs are your friend and over-long sentences are your enemy. Geoff B 17:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Who is being uncivil? Your points are philosophical ones and your miskeyed observation reflects the portrait of yourself on your registration. 81.19.57.130 17:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the line in the first paragraph about who might be considered to be second best to the SAS, particularly since it was one of those breathless fanboy comments about it being either Delta or Green Berets since I'm conscious that the terminology indicated that it's someone who doesn't know what they're on about. It appears that there might be a subset of editors who think this is encyclopedic and disagree with me about the absence of a requirement for the line. It's not substantiable, because it is an Opinion and therefore has no place in the article. ALR 22:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
May I suggest that it is not worth spending any time whatsoever replying to a comment that contains the aberration 'Who'se'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 21:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The SAS Regiment on formation in 1947 had a 'Colonel Commandant'- the first was Sir Miles Dempsey. The designation is 'Colonel Commandant' because, in the British Army, those regiments which are 'Corps of the British Army': which is a legal definition now meaning, essentially, capable of creating or raising additional units and having permanent existence as one of the 'Forces of the Crown', was what the regiment had become. That is why I want the label on the box changed-I just don't have the current skill to do the fix myself. I'd appreciate some help. 81.19.57.130 16:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
BBC Radio 4 is broadcasting a programme on the original SAS Regiment tonight at 20:00. This includes interviews with David Stirling and many of the original members of the regiment. -- jmb 14:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
This is the same material as appears in both the published hardcover and paperback version of his transcripts published last year, which have long been lodged at the IWM for research use and were originally made for a proposed TV series. Extracts also appear in Hoe's biography of Stirling and in the biography of Almond's. The BBC, on Radio 4, has also previously transmitted a programme-Of One Company: The beginning of the SAS- which contains interviews with Mather, Bond, Stirling, Bennett, etc. In all cases the interview transcripts, as you might expect, contain numerous demonstrable, unforced errors of fact and recollection; which is why oral history should always be treated with circumspection and fact checked against other sources. 81.19.57.130 15:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
This aspect of the topic has yet to be addressed. The published sources show 'L' Det's second CSM after Operation Squatter (and first RSM on the formation of 1 SAS) was C G G 'Pat' Riley, an American citizen. An American, Captain David Lair, who wore the uniform of the French Foreign Legion, was purportedly killed with 'L' Det on Operation Bigamy but this writer knows of no reliable sources that confirm this statement drawn from the biographies. In 1943 USA Major General R L Maxwell in correspondence with MO3 at GHQ, MEF, suggested it might be good to form an American unit along the lines of the SAS and proposed attaching a Lt Sumner Gerard, USNR and 1stLt Theodore Schulz for experience. A Captain Stanford, AUS and the aforementioned Lt Gerard, USN are subsequently shown as attached to 'D' Sqn, 1 SAS from Jan 6, 1943 but for how long this writer does not know. This writer knows of no published sources which either confirm or expand on these bare facts derived from examination of publicly available archival documents. KeepSureSilence 81.19.57.130 16:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added the unreferenced section tag to the alliances and the inspired by sections:
Alliances, if the section is included then it should be as comprehensive as possible. Fairly clear cut that the Aussi and Kiwi Regiments are derived from the Regt, but there are others, Delta being probably the most significant and reasonably formalised (there is a plaque outside the O's mess Dining Room).
The inspired by section is starting to resemble the List of special forces units article with every tom, dick and harry being listed. We either need some rigour round about sourcing, or we remove the lot. Offhand, Aussi and Kiwi Regiments and Delta have very clear derivation, although an extract from something to highlight Charlie Beckwith and his background would be useful.
ALR 14:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
No mention of Black Troop (within mobility sqn) or actual numbers in the SAS? -- maxrspct ping me 16:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC) there's a reason for that... black troop is shaky boat's business, not blades —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grumpy McFudd ( talk • contribs) 00:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
there are french SAS. here's a picture of an old unit "1st French SAS"' "fanion" (don't know the word in english). era is indochina war (1946-1954). on this old unit the motto is english but but the later the french SAS motto became "qui ose gagne" which is the french translation of "who dares win". i believe they trained State of Vietnam paras as SAS unit known as TDND. TDND 5's emblem is very similar to the SAS. Paris By Night 15:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
For god's sake would someone take in hand the idiot who keeps reverting, without references or logic, the 'winged sword' to a 'flaming dagger'! It's well documented in countless references that it's a winged sword. There are a number of cheap coffee-table books and ill-informed kids website that say otherwise - but check with any official military resource, anybody who's been a para, the Imperial War Museum or any of the countless references and you'll find it's a winged sword (Excalibur) on a crusader shield. Even the article says this, a bit further down. 212.11.178.120 13:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually you are right about the "sword" bit, but wrong about the "wings". Read "The Originals" by Gordon Stevens ISBN 978-0-09-190182-0, Page 57, "(Bob Bennet)....designed by Bob Tait....he called it a Flaming Sword, but it became a winged dagger over the years", "(Johnny Cooper)....Bob Tait MM & Bar....designed it......and it's not a winged dagger. They're flames. The sword of Excalibur. When "The Winged Dagger" came out we laughed our heads off."</ref>
These are the words of "The Originals" and as such can be considered the only truly authoritative source. If both Bob Bennet and Johnny Cooper say it is a flaming sword, and the designer himself, Bob Tait called it that, who are we to argue? It just goes to show that many "references" are quite wrong. I have also spoken directly to an LRDG veteran who knew and worked with many of "The Originals" who confirmed the same thing. It is a sword, is meant to represent Excalibur, and they are definately flames, not wings. They may look like wings but that was not what the disigner had in mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.238.108 ( talk) 00:33, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
Why there is no weapon section ?-- Max Mayr 21:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Because article the sequence written out of. Looking try weapons under information for.
'English speaker' 7th December 2007
I noticed the article makes mention of “ vetting”, but links the word to the article on security clearance. I think that vetting is more concise, and a quick scan of this page tells me there hasn’t been any discussion on the matter, so I’ve gone ahead and changed it. — NRen2k5 15:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed some (relatively minor) edit warring going on over the last day or so about which version of the 'philosophy of the SAS' part to have in the article. Police,Mad,Jack ( talk · contribs) wants this version while Blackshod ( talk · contribs) is going for this version. And apparently I'm not the only one to have noticed it; BillCJ ( talk · contribs) has just reverted the article to the last revision without either of these pieces in until it is sorted out on the talk page, an action I fully agree with.
However, I can't see any real difference between the two (apart from the wording and the lack of references in the first version I linked to above) so I'm somewhat confused as to why this conflict has occurred. I think the best solution would be for the two of you to come up with a compromise here on the talk page and then, once consensus is reached, to add that version back to the main article. Blair - Speak to me 10:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Blackshod included things about no sense of class among wives - what has this to do with the SAS? That was my problem with it.
CORRECTION NEEDED WITH REF: Winged "Sword of Damocles" ring any bells guys Lethargicandstupid ( talk) 12:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Chaps, the former members section is starting to really kick the arse out of inclusion. Is there much objection to, at the very least, culling those without their own unique articles. I'd also question the inclusion of some whose notability is unrelated to their service.
Grateful for any other thoughts.
ALR ( talk) 10:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Nobody?
ALR ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
There is now a artical page to cover this ( Archangel1 ( talk) 17:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC))
Can anyone enlighten me on the criteria for being included in the "Other Special Forces inspired by the SAS" section? It looks like this section get a lot of revisions, I added Sayeret Matkal and it was removed even though I cited a reference. If a consensus can't be made as to qualifying criteria I think this section should be removed. Motti ( talk) 14:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Where an earth did the fact that the SAS provide CP for VIP's? the reference given is a highly un-reliable one. For information CP teams are provided by the Royal Military Police (Close Protection Wing) (the RAF Police also have a smaller CP function). The RMP train the SAS in defensive driving techniques for when the SAS are required to operate undercover mobile surveillance. I am going to remove this mis leading senetence.-- Pandaplodder ( talk) 15:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This article might need to be reverted to an earlier version, due to edit for the stage of training at 4 weeks.
Who wrote this?:
The Special Air Service (SAS) is the best commando-elite unit in the world except for the Israeli commando unit "Sayeret Mat'kal".
What a stupid thing to say, is there any proof of this ?, when have the Israli forces ever proved themselves as good as the SAS.
Its wrong to say that any special forces unit is the number 1 best unit in the world. There is no way of completly knowing for sure. Most keep their training and tactics secret anyway. The SAS have been around since World War 2 and have earned their reputation if other special forces can prove themselves then fair enough. But you really can't say one is entirely better than another.
You could look into it in more detail and explain how different special forces are better in different areas.
Ok I'm new to this. I just noticed that the Republic of Ireland was left out as a country to join from. Many people make the mistake of assuming The Republic of Ireland is in the commonwealth which is false. Anyway that's it.
Former Trooper
I don't know if anyone holds this information who could post it here, but I think a greater expansion on details about entrance, training and selection to the SAS(R) would be a good addition to the article, given that you can join straight from civilian life ( http://www.army.mod.uk/uksf/). Also relating to this, the SAS(R) men are presumably not as highly trained etc. as the regular SAS regiment (as you must undergo further training and selection to pass from SAS(R) to SAS, and those in SAS(R) have no prior army experience), so perhaps a greater expansion (if possible) on what type of roles they can fulfill would be useful, as this isn't fully covered by the list of roles covered by the regular regiment, SAS 22.
Perhaps the link to the SAS(R) recruitment page should be posted too in the 'links' section.
Why aren't these external links : http://home.hccnet.nl/22.sas/ and http://www.sasrogues.co.uk/video/video.htm accepted ? I added them twice and twice they were removed. The first link is an excellent site - very well done, good layout and all. The second has interesting video clips. Yosy 00:15 September 15 2006 (UTC)
i think the term battle space is abit odd, i appreciate its on of these new techno warfare terms, but what does it mean in reality? i'm not in the military and thus have no idea what the term means, could it be replaced with more easily understood terminology.
One should read about the Special Air Service, there are many books on it. I've just read about SAS, Behind Enemy Lines, it's a rather exciting book. At the end of Chapter 02, the books describes how David Stirling (the founder of SAS) got captured by the unit's Dental Doctor. Well, it's a really enjoyable book, so I would like you to read it. It's by Will Fowder and it includes other books at the end of the book.
What is CT? - Patrick 14:22 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)
I moved the following list from the main article here, as it seems to be not so relevant. --Lorenzarius
Add name here if you were in the special air service
Name reg' number
I've deleted the names, PERSEC and to a certain extent OPSEC, plus even if those details are real they are probably not from the men themselves. - Red7
(these aren't British army soldier numbers, what are they?)
It seems unlikely that the SAS accepts members from 'the entire world'. Don't you have to be a member of the British Army before you can apply? DJ Clayworth 21:00, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
He could be referring to Commonwealth members, who can join the British Army, and as such the SAS. Red7 15:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The SAS doesn't deal in "terrorism". However, it is highly likely that it, like all counter-terrorism forces, deals with assassination. Of course, that's only an allegation... just like gravity is only a theory. ugen64 21:49, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just what colour is the boathouse at Hereford? (I'm kinda guessing there isn't one) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:35, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
>They have been part of every major British conflict since World War Two< Not so, they were reformed for the Malayan emergancy and had no involvement in the Korean war which the Brits had some serious involvement in.
>They destroyed an Argentine submarine in Cumberland Bay,< My understanding is that was a Wasp helicopter from HMS Endurance that attacked the Sante Fe and that it was damaged, not destroyed.
> Bravo Two Zero. The books, Bravo Two Zero by Andy McNab and The One That Got Away by Chris Ryan differed in the details of the mission.< I'm not sure what these incredible works of fiction written under pseudonyms are doing in a factual account in an Encyclopaedia.
>The SAS Selection is the toughest selection procedure of any Special Forces team in the world.< This statement is partisan and is offered without any support or qualification. Indeed it's questionable if SAS selection is 'tougher' than that of even other British formations including the Royal Marines SBS and Brigade Recce Group (formerly Mountain and Arctic warfare Cadre) let alone the rest of the World! < No, it is the toughest in the world!
>Apparently the more conventional officers in the British army do not much appreciate the "unruly" SAS members. During operations, SAS troopers and their officers are sometimes known to call each other by their first names! < This sort of trite, tabloidesque trivia should be removed as it adds diddly squat. For one thing it was common for British soldiers from line regiments of the British Army including the Ulster Defence Regiment and Royal Marines in Northern Ireland to call officers by their first name on operations.
Finlay I think that your suggestion is good and the way to go, 'A SAS in popular culture' section as a 'bucket' for the myths, legends and tabloidesque ‘noise’ surrounding the British SAS. That would leave the main section to contain a more dispassionate, level headed overview more fitting for an encyclopedia. I'll leave you to create it and move stuff around unless you want me to do it? User Nick_in_South_Africa
Oh and this page does need lots of work, partly content and partly the clunky style that's a little 'cheesy' in places IMO. Ive started by updating the Northern Ireland stuff under Counter Terrorism, it would be good if different eyes could proof read it. I have a little concern over the number of Arconyms I've used and if this makes reading it painful....feedback? Nick_in_South_Africa.
Finlay, the British SAS have probably along with the Israeli Sayeret Matkal the best combat record of any special forces unit in the world. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that their training is the toughest in the world. I'm not sure what the problem is with that statement. Serbitar 06:08, 20 Jun 2006
In the list of operations section at the end, suggest removing the raids not conducted by the SAS, and the SAS raids in the duplicate section on the British Commandos page. Or do people feel there is any merit in this duplication? CVA
Hope the respective dedicated pages are more concise now. A separate page that list 'all' operations would probably be too long. Their were far more organisations than just the Commandos, SAS and SBS. Again one factor is that some appear not to be aware of is that ‘The’ Commandos were a specific force. Probably victims of their own success, it was their style, manner and activities which popularised the term ‘commando’ in the English and other languages. Hence people, and the media, may refer to a ‘commando raid’ or an action being carried out by ‘commandos’ in reference to style or manner but not actually meaning the force of that name.
‘The’ Commandos in W.W.II fought in some 147 actions, but, there were many more ‘commando’ engagements by other ‘commandos’. For example, in the Far East came about the Small Operations Group comprising COPP 7 and 8 (Combined Operations Pilotage Party), 60 men of the SBS, Royal Marine Detachment 385 and the Sea Reconnaissance Unit. SOG mounted around 170 operations, while in the same theatre were 3 Commando Brigade with Nos. 1, 5, 42 and 44 Commandos, and the Dutch Troop of No.10 (IA), then later No.45 Commando, without mentioning the Australian commandos, or men there earlier like Burma II Commandos, V Force, Force Viper and Commandos who volunteered for Mission 204 with the Chinese. CVA 05:03, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What about Northern Ireland? They killed a decent number of IRA men in hits —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.140.61 ( talk) 23:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
On the whole this is a good article, although it needs some copyediting to tighten up some of the writing. I've got a few minor NPOV issues with this article - not enough to make a fuss, but enough to raise them.
In later years there was much made in the press about SAS deployments to the Province, but this publicity bore little resemblance to the actual tours of duty by SAS squadrons having more to do with government propaganda and press speculation. - this is a statement of fact which we cannot be certain of. Needs to be rewritten from a neutral stance. There are a number of similar statements of "fact" which are either not known or cannot be rigidly verified - we need to take a less committed tone here as well. Manning 23:48, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)
Bartlett You're absolutely correct on the tone, even though these are facts and quite well documented, and in the public domain, as indeed is almost all of this article. But candidly I aint gonna bother to throw time at the problem and dig up references, why not just go in there and edit for tone?-- Nick-in-South-Africa 21:49, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Isn't a little POV to speak of the SAS's "penchant for killing unarmed republicans"? Suggest "reputation" rather than "penchant". Efortune 12:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Many SAS men, although forbidden to follow suspects into the Republic of Ireland, nevertheless did so. Some were caught and arrested by Irish police. Controversially, they were rarely charged with firearms offences, but were returned to the British authorities. Is this speculation or fact. It probably true but other than the incident when the soldiers were fined are there any other documented instances. Irish Republicans is too general a phrase but it'll be hard to find a npov alternative. Terrorists will get up some peoples noses just as freedom fighters will annoy others; also exactly how many people killed by the regiment has it actually been proved were unarmed, and known to be so, when killed?
From the 2003-2005 section: After the September 11, 2001 attacks, the SAS (the FIRST force to enter Afghanistan, many months before the U.S. ever deployed), along with the Australian SAS, were involved in silent operations in Afghanistan (Most of which were secretive, until their successful outcomes,after which the U.S. would take the credit). [...] The SAS helped with storming the flats in West London and are believed to have fired several shots in the process. However, nothing was truly "seen" and they remain the silent professionals and the world's top special force (the predecessor of all others). This seems incredibly POV. I get the impression the bolded passages was added by some fanboy to emphasise the superiority of the SAS. The somewhat inferior phrasing certainly suggests it. I would edit it myself, but I'm still somewhat of a WP noob, so.. :) -MMad
Can we remove the picture that claims to be of SAS soldiers storming the Iranian Embassy? That photo was not taken at the embassy...it seems to have been taken during training somewhere (most likely the Killing House in Hereford). I was at the Iranian Embassy in early December 2005 and there are no bricks visible on the building but there clearly are in that photo. Also, there is no grass either in front of, or behind, the building but grass is clearly visible in that photo. One last point...none of the soldiers who stormed the embassy did so from the ground. They either entered through windows at the front or from skylights in the roof. That photo was not taken at the embassy and should be removed. --
colchar 02:25, 9 March 2006
Now, I have to say, I always understood that Delta Force was largely based on the SAS. Certainly, a number of books I have read present this view. And take this quote from the article on the founder, Charles Beckwith: "Delta Force was formed partly in response to growing terrorist actions worldwide, and on Beckwith's own experiences when cross-training with the British SAS years earlier." -- Necrothesp 09:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't think we need to take too much notice of someone who doesn't know the difference between 'your' and 'you're'
-SEAL TEAM SIX NO LONGER EXISTS, MOSTLY DUE TO DICK MARCINKO.-
Whoever this Alkivar character is. I think that you need to stop believing everything that you hear from the U.S. military friend. I served in the U.S. army for 23 years. 8 in regular army and the rest in special forces where I received my delta credentials for 10 years. The Detatchment D is very highly based off of the SAS and we train with them on a regular basis to keep up our standards. I was there, anything else that you read or hear is garbage
It's many years since I read Charles Beckwith's book (Delta Force(?) ISBN 0380809397) but I seem to remember him describing his period with 22 SAS, being wounded in Malaya(?) and writing a paper proposing the setting up of a similar organisation in the US military. It was ignored until there was interest after a terrorist incident and he got the go ahead to form Delta Force then. It seemed to be directly related to his experiences with 22 SAS. -- jmb 21:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
If the MP5KA4 is the standard weapon of CRW, why do none of the CRW photos support this declaration? Also can it truely be said that the SAS has a standard weapon? Ben W Bell 13:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The MP5KA4 isn't the standard weapon of the CRW team, It is There own personal choice such as MP5A3/ MP5A2. The MP5K wouldn't be used because it is design to be a PDW that can be concealed and be used at a very short range.
MP5A4? I thought those SAS troopers were actually using MP5A3 since their MP5s has a retractable stock instead of a fixed buttstock? Eikichi 00 14:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Special Forces units are never so predictable as to use the same weapon over a long period of time. The MP5 is reliable and is favoured by the SAS. Many believe that they use it all the time due to the publicity the SAS received after the Iranian embassy incident and the revelation that the MP5 was used there. But they use different weapons in different situations. Since the 80s, newer, better SMG/PDWs have been developed, such as the MP7A1 and the P90. SMGs are most effective indoors; carbines and assault rifles are [generally] better all-weather weapons, and a documentary a few years back noted the SAS regularly practice and operationally use a range of sniper rifles, such as the L115A1 and L96A1.
"Officers serve only a term of four years" "New members are on probation for a period of four years". Has to be something wrong here. DJ Clayworth 13:50, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My understanding is that NCOs who join are on probation for their first four years. Officers are not, because they only serve four, as opposed to an NCO who could serve as much as fifteen or so. Geoff B 07:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Officers serve for three year terms and are then required to return to their parent outfit (helps to spread experience throughout the army). They can come back for another term with the SAS later in their careers. Normally they command a troop in their first term of service and a squadron during their second. There are some exceptions to this as DLB served virtually his entire career with the SAS. colchar 13:31, 4 February 2006
The beret colour seems to be referred to as "sand" or "beige" in about even numbers. We should mention both. DJ Clayworth 14:40, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised we don't have articles on the Australian and New Zealand Special Air Services, linked from here. Anyone? DJ Clayworth 14:42, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
B1link82, exactly what is your objection to stating that the beret is sometimes called the beige beret?
DJ Clayworth 16:42, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The article states that only members of the British Army or the RAF Regiment can apply to join the SAS. However, the 2002 Navy Officer's Career Regulations (which seem to have disappeared off the MoD site, annoyingly enough) explicitly state that "[m]embers of the RN and RM may volunteer to serve in both the Special Boat Service (SBS) and Special Air Service (SAS)".
They also strongly imply that members of RAF units other than the RAF Regiment can apply ("Both the SBS and SAS conduct a number of briefings to RN, Army and RAF units designed to give personnel an insight into each unit, how best to prepare for UKSF [United Kingdom Special Forces]..."; [emphasis added].) Anyone know for sure? — Franey 15:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Members of the Royal Marines have served with the SAS since the 1970s. In his autobiography, The Killing Zone, Harry McCallion refers to a marine nicknamed 'Nasty Neil' who would later serve with him in the SAS. colchar 13:31, 4 February 2006
At least a dozen Royal Marines served with Special Boat Squadron, 1 SAS and subsequently Special Boat Service commanded by Jellicoe and then Sutherland. Nominal rolls are given in end of war disbandment schedules held by The National Archives in the UK. 81.19.57.130 11:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
84.65.183.7, please don't start the edit war over the beige beret again. It is frequently known as the beige beret and always has been. Also, please don't delink things just because they're red - red links will eventually lead to articles and turn blue. Finally, it is standard formatting in Wikipedia to put disambiguation links (in this case to the Australian and NZ SAS) at the top of the page. Thanks. -- Necrothesp 21:17, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Can you please try and make your edits at the same time, not one edit continually after the other, it makes it much easier to tell what has changed instead of looking through dozens of smaller edits. Also if there is something you are not sure of then don't put it in, don't add it and then put a comment saying you're not sure about it. Ben W Bell 08:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I seem to remember that the SAS is sometimes referred to as just "Special Air" within the one part or other of armed forces? Any truth in this? - max rspct 20:56, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I think so, although everyone I knew in the army called it the "sass".
Geoff B 07:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Ah well, there's none of those in the Army. Geoff B 20:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
No no no it's The Regiment!! All the wannabes call it "sass" but everyone else i know calls it the Regiment. No mistake. the Regiment, not "sass," "hereford" or "special air".
The conventional riposte was always: 'There is Brown 'sass' and a Tomato 'sass'[add to list to taste] but there is only one SAS; with each letter pronounced separately. In just the same way as the RAF once insisted-It's not 'raf' it's R A F and say the same for R A F Regiment. 81.19.57.130 13:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Some rubbish written here, after serving in the UK Forces I can state that the SAS are more commonly referred by regular forces as 'sass',never The Regiment ,as stated earlier this would would only ever refer to the speakers own regiment.Also people that use such terms as 'Walts' are 99% certain to be 'Walts' themselves and are trying to give themselves a little kudos by applying such terms as only the SAS themselves would ever use that term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.97.9.194 ( talk) 23:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"Soldiers will learn to live, fight and survive in the jungle, and will have to take care of every cut, scratch, blister, and even eating equipment, as it could easily get infected." Their eating equipment could get infected? I don't think that's what the author was trying to say... This sentence really needs to be rewritten (don't wounds always have to be taken care of?) but I'm not quite sure what it should say. -- JdwNYC 17:18, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
i see yoour point there. nice way of putting it unlike some people on here. what ti means is that even the tiniest scratch need looking after, mos tpeople will get a cut and just leave it but in the jungle it could get infected - houghone! thanks
Bold textsoem other guyBold text SBS is based in poole on a small island, thought you might want to know, may hel por something :)
Cuts and sores left untreated in a jungle environment become tasty landing strips for the female Bottfly, which will lay its eggs in the wound. The larvae are barbed and cannot be removed completely. The larvae eat human flesh until they turn into mature flies and buzz off (literally). Treat those wounds when you're in the jungle, kids! Oh, and don't even THINK about eating monkey meat. The SAS found that out the hard way in Central Africa.
The history of the SAS is not wholly British, although some Angophiles would like ir to be. It is closely associated with the LRDG, which, in 1941, at the time when the SAS was formed, was entirely made up of NZ troopers. Later around 1942, some Rhodesians and British soldiers joined. The LRDG was the idea of a British officer, true. But then Z force was an American idea. But the Americans would never claim Z force to be an American unit. Z force is clearly Australian. The whole article about the SAS is heavily biassed towards the British. There is hardly any mention of the French, Australian, New Zealand and most of all Scottish involvement in the SAS. Wallie 09:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The OP clearly has a chip on his shoulder and is in dire need of an education. The very fact alone that he has proven incapable of differentiating between Britain and Scotland proves this as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.255.151 ( talk) 21:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Somebody keeps removing the list of SAS Battle Honours. Let's get this straight. Battle Honours are official. They are awarded by the Crown. The SAS has been awarded these Battle Honours and no others. Whether you agree or disagree with the list is not the point - the fact remains that these are their Battle Honours. -- Necrothesp 23:58, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Could User:Hammersfan explain why he reverted the nice, clear list of Battle Honours to a single clumsy line? -- Khendon 06:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Never used the editing thing before so forgive me if this is the wrong place. The SAS was involved in the Dhofar War in the Sultanate of Oman. The wiki atricle should mention this (unless it does and i missed it :/). I believe that Victoria cross was awarded to one of its members during this camgaign. Just a thought.-- Discojim 13:40, 14 August 2006
No VC has ever been awarded to an SAS soldier. There is, however, a campaign by some former members to have a soldier who served in Oman awarded a VC because, at the time, his actions were only acknowledged with an MID (because the war was, technically, a secret). But you are entirely correct that they did serve there (briefly in the 1950s and again in the 1970s).--
colchar 11:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The above post is incorrect. The VC was awarded to Major Anders Lassen in Italy in 1944 and is counted as the 'first SAS VC'. Anders Lassen was a Danish national. He was commissioned as an officer in The Buffs (As the sovereign of Denmark is the Colonel of the Regiment) subsequent to operations with SOE. He transferred to 1 SAS and was in 'D' Sqn which became Special Boat Squadron. Special Boat Squadron, 1 SAS formed the nucleus of the new Special Boat Service in the Middle East when 1 SAS at squadron strength as SRS (Special Raiding Squadron) returned to the UK for reformation for ops in North West Europe. SBS- a war-formed regiment of GHQ, ME - continued to wear the cap badge and wings originated with 1 SAS and was brigaded in 'Raiding Forces', ME with the LRDG and others. The brigade equivalent force of the Raiding Support Regiment (RSR)and Popski (PPA), etc all wore the SAS parachute wing. 81.19.57.130 16:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Could whomsoever explain why they have reverted the battle honours sub section to a previous version which has incorrect data? I reshuffled the section to read, in time order, from the present to the past and corrected the mis-stated World War 2 honours, grouping them generally and specially; having verified all from a reputable current published account as well as from the original policy files in the UK National Archives and the HMSO published lists. I also put the 2006 published ref in the references section. How much more does anyone have to do to persuade you crackerjack to stop your ill-considered edits?
I wouldn't know and I haven't vandalised anything. But I see the piece has re-reverted to the first version which is wrong because it rams together honours which are actually separated. My attempt wasn't pretty in layout, due to inexperience, but it was right. Could someone please recover this and do a better job? 81.19.57.130 13:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following assertions from the opening paragraph:
— Franey 10:13, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
--22nd SAS is a regiment. What you are referring to (a group of regiments) is a Brigade...officially known as the SAS Brigade. colchar 11:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Why must the killing of the unarmed IRA members in Gibralter be justified with a comparison to the IRA. The IRA were supposed to be terrorists. Surely using their actions as a comparison means the same criticisms could be levelled at the SAS?
ALso with reference to "22 SAS's reputation, or rather mystique, grew to the extent that during the Balcombe Street siege, the IRA surrendered once the SAS deployment was publicised. Considering the SAS's reputation, this was probably a pragmatic move on their part."
This could be lifted staright from an Andy McNab novel - stick to facts not mythology.
I have changed the lines which refer to Robert Nairac as being an SAS officer. He was not. Someone changed it back so I fixed it again. Nairac was not in the SAS...he was in 14th Int. For proof of this check Ken Connor's Ghost Force, Anthony Kemp's SAS: Savage Wars of Peace, Tony Geraghty's Who Dares Wins, Barry Davies' Heroes of the SAS, Peter MacDonald's The SAS in Action, and Nigel McCrery's The Complete History of the SAS. Please stop changing it to refer to Nairac as an SAS officer when the available evidence clearly proves that he was not.
colchar 13:44, 4 February 2006.
As a historian I must look at sources critically so I am well aware of the bias that exists in certain texts. But all of the books on the SAS openly discuss those members of the regiment who were killed in NI (Al Slater, Westmacott, etc.). Why, if they talk about those who did die in NI, would they lie about Nairac? In addition, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, we are forced to accept the evidence that is available. The evidence available states that Nairac was not SAS so we must accept that. If evidence to the contrary is provided the conclusion can then be re-evaluated...but not until new evidence comes to light. Also, while the special forces may be secret, a lot of what is written in these books isn't. And these authors have been banned by the MOD because of it. Based upon that I don't think these books are fabrications (unlike books such as Bravo Two Zero and The One That Got Away which were largely fabricated). I also know a former member of 14th Int and I've asked him about Nairac. He claims that Nairac was definitely from 14th Int and not from the SAS. Last, but not least, Nairac isn't buried in the regimental plot at St. Martin's Church in Hereford which is the regimental graveyard, nor is he listed on the clock tower at their base (the names of all members of the SAS who die on operations are inscribed there). colchar 16:25, 4 February 2006.
'Proof' might have been too strong a word. The most reliable evidence available claims he was 14th Int but you're right, proof probably isn't the right word to use. I'll change it in the morning.
colchar 1:54, 5 February 2006
The article says the SAS assisted in the operation to free Norman Kember in a raid in Iraq on the 23/03/06, at present according to all news reports this is only speculation and authorities have refused to confirm wether or not this is the case. This should therefore be removed until it has been confirmed the SAS were involved.
Could we stop the back and forth pissing contest aboud which special forces group is the best? Thanks. MKV 06:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
In practise, this is of no significance, as a unit as a secretive as the SAS would never be involved in a formal parade.
I note that there is a tag on the training section suggesting it be split out into a discrete article, but no corresponding discussion. I'm not going to hunt down how long it's been there for. Since Selection is now a joint activity for SAS and SBS then it makes sense to split it out, snag is I don't know the break point at which one can then elect to go on to SBS selection. Is it after badging for those choosing to remain SAS or not? From media comments it appears that SRR training is not common with SF selection, but there may be areas of commonality. It would slim the article down a bit. ALR 13:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The SF wings badge is now used by SBS as well, at least during the early stages of Op Oracle, which was about the time the Squadron was upped to Service etc. Not out of the question that's when it started. I can't document that but I see it quite frequently and they're generally referred to as SF wings rather than SAS wings. ALR 14:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The wings, or officially, 'parachute qualification badge' ceased to be unique to 1 SAS on the formation of 'Raiding Forces' in the Middle East in 1943. By arrangement all parachute qualified men serving with this roughly brigade equivalent unit and sub branch of GHQ, MEF were awarded them. The badge ceased to be issued with the disbandment of the Regiment although men 'in possession' could and did continue to wear them as a matter of course. Broadly the same design of badge was re-instituted with the reformation of the Regiment for wear by those serving with it. The regulations for wear and the design patterns have been varied over the years. The first 'SF' wings actually bore those letters and were worn by the men and women of the Jedburgh teams, so is also alluded to as 'Jed wings'. The pattern fell out of use with their disbandment. 81.19.57.130 13:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I just came to this page while I was researching a few things, and I had a few problems with the grammer and tone, especially in the 'Boat Troop' section, which I edited. Over the whole article, there seems to be occasional slips into jargon and a style that seems a bit Bravo-two-Zero, which might be fine if you're up on the subject, but for a layperson like me, it just becomes annoying, and seems out of place in an encyclopedia. I'm not trying to be too critical, the article as a whole reads well - I don't want to step on any self-confessed experts toes, just attempting make it easier to understand. I'm putting it in the talk page as I think the whole article needs some subtle tweaking just to help improve its readability. I'll just include some of the changes as examples, sorry if I've gone into a lot of detail over what are cosmetic changes, it's just I get the feeling those who've written this page will be pretty exacting when it comes to technical details, and I wouldn't want to confuse anything.
"Troopers will also learn how to handle certain types of boats. Fast patrol boats have a fibreglass hull with an inflatable lip over the top to increase it bouyancy and allow for better manoeuvrability. Rigid Raider boats have also been around for a long time. These are large boats often used to help carry larger amounts of people or cargo to the shore. Also in use is the Gemini inflatable boat. It is used primarily for sending small groups of soldiers onto a shore undetected."
Don't understand the need to explain the inflatable lip and the bouyancy thing - it has no relevance to the SAS, so took it out. The boats being 'around for a long time' means very little. Just shifted this whole paragraph around a bit, removed a lot of the closely repeated words, so:
"Troopers also learn how to handle certain types of boats. Gemini inflatable boats are used primarily for sending small groups of soldiers onto a shore undetected. Fibreglass hulled Rigid Raider fast patrol boats are larger, and are used to help carry more people or cargo to the shore."
" Demolitions is also a big part of diving. The soldiers must be able to stop a ship or blow up a bridge. Navigation underwater is also taught. All navigation is done using a compass. Being lost underwater, in hostile territory is not a good day. The men also practice heliborne entry into the water. A helicopter some 50 feet above the water will go into a hover and the men will simply jump out . Parachute drops in the water are also very common. The soldiers have to seal their weapons to avoid them getting a jam. This is normally done with a "dry bag"."
"Locking out of submarines is also taught. This is very dangerous. At certain depths the pressure could kill the trooper, if the cold, lack (or excess) of oxygen or nitrogen narcosis doesn't get to him first. While the SAS would probably not be called upon to assault an oil rig or take down a ship, these are still practiced. When performing these operations, the men usually wear dry suits so that they don't come down with hypothermia. Long rope-type ladders (commonly referred to as Jacob's Ladders) are attached to a ship or oil rig using a telescopic pole. The assault team will then use the ladders to gain entry. Snipers are usually put on smaller boats near the target (usually smaller ships to hide among regular sea traffic), or they may be left in the boats to provide security, or they can even be flown in quickly via helicopter as the assault begins. Assaults like these will usually be carried out by members of the SBS."
"Demolitions is a big part of diving. The soldiers must be able to stop a ship or blow up a bridge. Underwater Navigation using a compass is also taught. The men practise heliborne entry into the water. A helicopter will hover some 50 feet above the water, and the men will simply jump out . Parachute drops into the water are also very common. When in water, the soldiers weapons must be sealed to prevent jams. This is normally done with a "dry bag".
Deployment from submarines is also taught. This is very dangerous, given the pressure at certain depths, the cold, and the risks inherant in relying on breathing equipment while underwater (such as nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity). When performing these operations, the men usually wear dry suits to ward against hypothermia. Long rope-type ladders (commonly referred to as Jacob's Ladders) are attached to a ship or oil rig using a telescopic pole. The assault team will then use the ladders to gain entry. Snipers are usually put on smaller boats near the target (usually smaller ships to hide amongst regular sea traffic), or they can even be flown in quickly via helicopter as the assault begins. Though the SAS would probably not be called upon to assault an oil rig or a ship, they are still trained for it. Assaults like these would usually be carried out by members of the SBS."
The section on troops was added to this article only very recently and was formerly a separate article largely written by someone who has since left Wikipedia after numerous edit wars over his POV SAS fandom. That's why it was so unencycopaedic. So it does need some severe editing. Cheers. -- Necrothesp 10:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to start edit warring over it, but wholesale removal of fact tags is inappropriate and not particularly constructive. Some of the requests were for material which is reasonably well accepted however could be described as unsubstantiated puffery without some form of referencing, the others were cruft unless sunstantiated. The whole portfolio of UK SF related articles leaves something to be desired, substantiating things will improve that. ALR 11:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
ALR , Necrothesp and Yorkshire Phoenix - unfortunately this is an article where myth, fantasy and small kernels of truth are easily interwoven, embellished, and even fabricated. I agree with Necro's instinctive distate of fanboy cruft - and I'm sure ALR holds the same view. So where do we go from here? I believe we must allow you 3 chaps to keep the idiots at bay, and as ALR says - we need substantiated links if this article is to survive and be of worth. Would I be permitted to sweep through the article and highlight those 'factoids' that are total tosh and then report back? I don't pretend to be a Wiki guru, but I do know about the subject at hand. Phoenix - thanks for helping with those images, by the way - I'm all fingers and thumbs!!! Darth Doctrinus 19:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe special forces selection has been standarised throughout UKSF. The Selection and training section should therefore be split with the common UKSF element moved to either United Kingdom Special Forces or a new special forces selection article with the section in this article taking over from the point where the SAS candidates split from the remainder of UKSF and thus start their actual "SAS training". The remaining section in this article would obviously reference and link to special forces selection, wherever it is. Does anyone disagree? Yorkshire Phoenix ( talk) 12:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I've requested a view from the WP:RS people about the Specialoperations web site as a source, whilst it contains some reasonably accurate content, the majority is grossly inaccurate fanboy cruft, so I'm wary about using it. The Santa Clara University student personal webspace would constitute a personally published site and is not considered reliable since it lacks peer review. A pity because it's probably better written than specialoperations. I'll let this discussion run for a day or two before deleting it though. Notwithstanding that I think Peter Radcliffes book probably has enough detail to be considered a source, I'm just not sure whether it constitutes reliable or not. Does his status as a former LE Major within the Regiment give him more credibility than some of the other 'authors' on the subject? I used to have a copy, not sure if I still have it so I'll need to dig around. ALR 08:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I've moved the following claim from the article to here.
The capbadge itself is embroidered in colour (silver/white, Oxford and Cambridge blue, etc) and this is also how the insignia appears in other places I have seen it (such as a stained glass window in the B Sqn, 23 SAS all ranks bar. I'm assuming good faith and working on the assumption that the editor means collar dogs, etc: except I though they were brass (or rather staybright, but gold in colour). Yorkshire Phoenix 10:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The capbadge is in natural colours and is worked thread in cloth. It is now available in two versions in British service, the second version being an officer's pattern 'puffed version' worked in silver wire. All metal cap badges have never been worn by the British regiments except for silver metal badges introduced for the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II for the Guard of Honour provided by 21 SAS (Artists) on route lining detachment. The cap badge is invariably represented as metallic or in gold and silver by the designers of illustrations for the media who like this kind of iconography. The badge and design itself is of utilitarian cloth intended to neither catch nor shine in wear and is as it is because it was possible for the original Detachment to have badges made up by a British firm of taylors in Cairo and for all ranks to pay for their cap badges and wings themselves with coming to the official notice of the Army authorities until after the insignia had been taken into use and unremovable by 'right of battle' so to speak. 81.19.57.130 12:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
To the unhelpful individual who reverted this page to the Army website page version of the capbadge. Would you please just stop and engage brain. There was discussion here about what was and wasn't correct and somebody then supplied an image of the cloth cap badge as issued and as worn. So why on earth is it better to substitute a drawing (and an incorrect one at that) of this, even if it does come from MODUK?
Somebody has, yet again, reverted this page to the incorrect representation of the capbadge. The page had an actual cloth capbadge, as issued on it in settlement of this line of debate, so why have we now gone back to misinformation again? I've deleted the .gif simply because it is wrong. I hope that somebody with the skill I do not currently possess will restore the correct capbadge representation to this page. 80.254.147.68 12:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I've slimmed down the organisaiton section and tried to improve the wording a bit. This is an excerpt which I'll put in training later:
All SAS members have to pass a rigorous selection procedure, but due to the part-time nature of the TA, the selection process for members of 21 SAS and 23 SAS is stretched over a period of over a year. Signallers must also undergo a similar selection process to become Special Forces Communicators, however this concentrates on strategic and tactical SF communications rather than the advanced military skills of SAS troopers. citation needed
ALR 16:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
From mobility Troop to History
During
Operation GRANBY, the British involvement in the 1991
Gulf War, the motorbikes proved invaluable. On one occasion a patrol behind enemy lines was spotted by Iraqi forces who immediately sought to escape. The SAS pursued them until outriders pulled in front of the Iraqi trucks making them stop. When the rest of the patrol engaged the trucks, two outriders got caught in the cross fire, one of whom died. For his actions, Corporal Denbury was posthumously awarded the
Military Medal.
ALR 20:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
A former FBI hostage negotiator hawking his book on Talk of The Nation said "No lie until the last lie" comes from the SAS and relates to being honest until you distract him to kill him. -- Gbleem 19:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone help me with some background history to a man who is commonly known as the godfather of the SAS? His name was Major/Quartermaster Tom Burt. I know he was stationed at Wivenhoe Park, Essex during the second world war and I believe he died in the 70's. Any info would be gratefully received. Thanks Tiggywinkle 18:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Major Tom Burt was awarded the MBE, along with Major 'Bill' Barkworth for their services with the SAS in World War 2 and subsequently with the SAS War Crimes Investigation Team from March 1946 which was commanded by Barkworth from inception until disbandment along with the War Crimes Investigation branch, North West Europe of 21 Army Group (subsequently BAOR: British Army of the Rhine). KeepSureSilence 81.19.57.130 12:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history#Popular_culture is that these sections should not be allowed to cruft up the article with every appearance of the topic. With that in mind I'm intending on removing the pop culture section, perhaps replacing it with a paragraph drawing attention to the phenomenon. The only important aspect is the books by various former personnel, everything else is just noise. ALR 11:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi I just added a bit about the SAS Survival Guide, by John Wiseman Karate freak 22:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I think despite what many people think, Call of Duty 4 should be included in the popular culture section, think about it, about 80%(estimation) of the missions are based on the SAS, and plus in light of what some have said about the pop culture being a large part of the SAS' identity alot of the people i know (including me) didnt even know the SAS existed until Call of Duty 4 was released. Maxtitan 16:59, 18 March 2008
I'm confused as to why the history section is now partway through the description of the Regiment currently? I'm not overly comfortable about bringing it further up the page without significant rework, it's turgid and text densse at the moment. Notwithstanding that it would be useful to do something about it, and bringing the issues about the province into the section are useful. ALR 18:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Always thought that the sword on the cap badge was that of Damocles not Excalibur? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.57.72 ( talk) 00:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
Hi what SAS stuff do you know that might be interesting for me to know —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.42.87.107 ( talk) 17:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
Whilst I note that you appear to have strong feelings about the use of the Regminet emblem on the article persistent deletion is probably not the best approach. If you can provide a photograph of the cap badge that would be extremely useful, but until then a drawn representation seems perfcetly reasonable. Please discuss on the article talk page to reach an consensus decision. ALR 14:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
This page has got to be easily the worst entry I have ever read in Wikipedia. As Wikipedia is intended as an encyclopedia it is clearly inappropriate to include such poorly drafted speculation and inacurate conjecture which comprises the sections dealing with recent events and training and selection.
The author/s of these entries are clearly not aware of the detailed information available through the MOD with regard to UKSF selection and training. Anyone attending the SF briefing course would be aware of this. The author/s sources, if indeed they have any, appear to have been drawn from tabloid newspapers and other unreliable publications.The entry for Mountain troop training illustrates this particularly well as does the reference to SBS selection.
Furthermore the author/s cannot comment with any certainty about recent UKSF operations since as correctly mentioned in the article all members of UKSF sign a confidentiality agreement which prevents any discussion of current or past UKSF operations and as also pointed out in the article the MOD does not comment on them either. Hence any references to recent operations are not from reliable sources and should be excluded from this article as unreliable speculation.
The internet is full of innacurate web pages devoted to the worlds various SF units and it is not something that Wikipedia should mimic. It is a fact that there is little available, detailed, verifiable information about current and recent UKSF operations and thus the entry in Wikipedia should reflect this. If this results in a brief article so be it. Better that than some adolescent, barely disguised, fan site.
I have one. My father was a member of the original SAS. I am new to this service so if someone tells me how to post a photo I will take a picture of it and I will post it. SAS2 10:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)in memory of a great man. Who Dares Wins! JAH
Can't someone going into a museum and take a picture of the cap badge to stop all the bickering over whether or not a drawing is right or not. There must be one somewhere that one can be photographed to end it all. -- jmb 16:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
You are overly hopeful as to effective dating (For reasons set out below) and we are still not addressing the fact that the current badge drawing that some seem wedded to without warrant is incorrect because it clearly shows gold or metal flames. As far as I am aware (and it was my duty as well as an interest to care about this sort of thing for several thousand hours of effort, because, yes, I was once entitled to wear this badge during my British Army service) there is now no drawing, original depiction or written or oral account of how the cap badge came into being. There are, unpublished, undated, private photos, which I have seen and do not have consent to publish to the world, of the original badge design competition which show the idea worked out in whitewashed stones at the entrance to the camp at Kabrit. There is a consensus published both to the world and privately to past and present members of the regiment that the cap badge design is attributable as stated in the article under reference and the same for the parachute qualification badge attributed to John Lewes. We know how the design was first implemented because there are at least 8 public domain photographs of known or attributable dating of David Stirling wearing the 'Arthur's sword' cloth badge and also of the design worked as a painted badge, complete with the Crusader shield background, on the door of his 'blitz buggy'. Other photographs, of similar verifiable provenance, published to the world show cap badge variants in wear on blue side cap or beret of white, sand, red (maroon) or beige, successively. Unpublished, private photographic portraits, hand coloured with great skill by Cairo photo shops also show the colours and threading.There are a number of specialist published books which show scalable photographs of variant patterns of the badge as worn during World War 2 and after the re-formation of the regiment in the UK and in Malaya and demonstrate that, as the badge was only ever produced by copying from cloth examples, over time the overall proportions of the shield, weapon and scroll have changed from a clear depiction of a Roman gladius pattern to a dagger. Dating of variants is problematic because they are all based on oral testimony and usually without collateral paperwork. When the cap badge was used as a sign on vehicles, after the capture of David Stirling it is depicted in white, shows only the weapon, wings and scroll on a square background because that was British Army regulations for a formation sign borne on vehicles. Post-war, in the UK, sticky back, printed transfer (or decal if you prefer the US term) versions of the badge in light blue and white were sometimes used and applied on the doors of third line vehicles. It is therefore the case that the cap badge , per se, is of cloth, the Crusader shield is integral to the depiction and the colours of red, two tone blue and white with a bladed weapon of Roman pattern are the defining characteristics of the British Army badge. Other variants in metal or gold or silver are either special purpose; as in for particular forms of dress or are those taken into use by the regiments and units that derive from the British original.That is why the depiction on this problematic and not particularly good article should be improved by somebody with the competence to do this that I presently do not possess, but in any event the incorrect depiction should be taken down because it is misleading and incorrect. 81.19.57.130 16:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
At the moment this leaves a lot to be desired, and given that the history of military units bores me mindless I have no intention of raking around to improve it. In it's entirety it is unreferenced and as such liable for deletion. I will mark it as unreferenced, give it a couple of weeks and then delete it if nobody can provide some substance. In terms of style it is written in schoolkid english, as highlighted above the recent operations material is pretty fanboyish and could use some sensible referencing. I've got rid of copies of various memoirs which I had in the past which could provide some reliability to the material on selection etc so it would be useful if someone else could skim the material and reference it, we might need to caveat with the selection and training only being good to 1997 when they memoirs stopped. ALR 21:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry ALR but in my code of conduct your comment At the moment this leaves a lot to be desired, and given that the history of military units bores me mindless I have no intention of raking around to improve it. In it's entirety it is unreferenced and as such liable for deletion. rules you out as a fit and proper person to make decisions about this mess of pottage. If this bores you mindless why don't you point your unquestioned competence and expertise at something that does engage you and leave others to fix it? The problem with this topic (and Wikipedia in general I suspect, subject to whatever anyone else may wish to say with greater expertise and knowledge) is that we lack protocols that routinely enable verification and authentication without providing return addresses or other tracers. I personally decline to provide tracers because of my background; because it might bring either myself or others for whom I am responsible or owe a duty toward into hazard and because I don't want to incur the obligation of responding to all and anyone to my disbenefit. I can and have re-written some of this site in a self-evidently checkable form and making references to facts which can be checked for accuracy. I have done so because this is a forum devoted to knowledge for its own sake and not from a particular point of view, although we can, of course, never escape having one. All that appears to me to have happened so far is knee jerk reversion to previous edit on the basis of what appears to be a misapplied belief either in the veracity of published sources or an overwheening sense of unchallengable editorial judgement. At several thousand hours of effort on this topic, some of which is in the public domain, I can say that the published trail on the history of this Regiment up to the time of the Falklands is riddled with easily avoidable factual error and deliberate, as well as inadvertant, mis-statement about facts events and persons, from the first officially authorised history onwards, which are only now becoming verifiable for what they are as the mosaic of British official records, of a stunning and complex array of privacy and security markings are downgraded and released to public scrutiny. I am somewhat entertained to see that data I have supplied to the BBC, under legal conditions of all due diligence and despatch coupled with source anonymity conditions and subsequently used by that organisation in its output in many forms have been incorporated into this page but without reference, or the references have been deleted! 81.19.57.130 16:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Your own perosnal 'code of conduct' has no place on Wikipedia. Please be civil, remember verifiability, that paragraphs are your friend and over-long sentences are your enemy. Geoff B 17:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Who is being uncivil? Your points are philosophical ones and your miskeyed observation reflects the portrait of yourself on your registration. 81.19.57.130 17:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the line in the first paragraph about who might be considered to be second best to the SAS, particularly since it was one of those breathless fanboy comments about it being either Delta or Green Berets since I'm conscious that the terminology indicated that it's someone who doesn't know what they're on about. It appears that there might be a subset of editors who think this is encyclopedic and disagree with me about the absence of a requirement for the line. It's not substantiable, because it is an Opinion and therefore has no place in the article. ALR 22:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
May I suggest that it is not worth spending any time whatsoever replying to a comment that contains the aberration 'Who'se'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 21:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The SAS Regiment on formation in 1947 had a 'Colonel Commandant'- the first was Sir Miles Dempsey. The designation is 'Colonel Commandant' because, in the British Army, those regiments which are 'Corps of the British Army': which is a legal definition now meaning, essentially, capable of creating or raising additional units and having permanent existence as one of the 'Forces of the Crown', was what the regiment had become. That is why I want the label on the box changed-I just don't have the current skill to do the fix myself. I'd appreciate some help. 81.19.57.130 16:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
BBC Radio 4 is broadcasting a programme on the original SAS Regiment tonight at 20:00. This includes interviews with David Stirling and many of the original members of the regiment. -- jmb 14:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
This is the same material as appears in both the published hardcover and paperback version of his transcripts published last year, which have long been lodged at the IWM for research use and were originally made for a proposed TV series. Extracts also appear in Hoe's biography of Stirling and in the biography of Almond's. The BBC, on Radio 4, has also previously transmitted a programme-Of One Company: The beginning of the SAS- which contains interviews with Mather, Bond, Stirling, Bennett, etc. In all cases the interview transcripts, as you might expect, contain numerous demonstrable, unforced errors of fact and recollection; which is why oral history should always be treated with circumspection and fact checked against other sources. 81.19.57.130 15:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
This aspect of the topic has yet to be addressed. The published sources show 'L' Det's second CSM after Operation Squatter (and first RSM on the formation of 1 SAS) was C G G 'Pat' Riley, an American citizen. An American, Captain David Lair, who wore the uniform of the French Foreign Legion, was purportedly killed with 'L' Det on Operation Bigamy but this writer knows of no reliable sources that confirm this statement drawn from the biographies. In 1943 USA Major General R L Maxwell in correspondence with MO3 at GHQ, MEF, suggested it might be good to form an American unit along the lines of the SAS and proposed attaching a Lt Sumner Gerard, USNR and 1stLt Theodore Schulz for experience. A Captain Stanford, AUS and the aforementioned Lt Gerard, USN are subsequently shown as attached to 'D' Sqn, 1 SAS from Jan 6, 1943 but for how long this writer does not know. This writer knows of no published sources which either confirm or expand on these bare facts derived from examination of publicly available archival documents. KeepSureSilence 81.19.57.130 16:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added the unreferenced section tag to the alliances and the inspired by sections:
Alliances, if the section is included then it should be as comprehensive as possible. Fairly clear cut that the Aussi and Kiwi Regiments are derived from the Regt, but there are others, Delta being probably the most significant and reasonably formalised (there is a plaque outside the O's mess Dining Room).
The inspired by section is starting to resemble the List of special forces units article with every tom, dick and harry being listed. We either need some rigour round about sourcing, or we remove the lot. Offhand, Aussi and Kiwi Regiments and Delta have very clear derivation, although an extract from something to highlight Charlie Beckwith and his background would be useful.
ALR 14:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
No mention of Black Troop (within mobility sqn) or actual numbers in the SAS? -- maxrspct ping me 16:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC) there's a reason for that... black troop is shaky boat's business, not blades —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grumpy McFudd ( talk • contribs) 00:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
there are french SAS. here's a picture of an old unit "1st French SAS"' "fanion" (don't know the word in english). era is indochina war (1946-1954). on this old unit the motto is english but but the later the french SAS motto became "qui ose gagne" which is the french translation of "who dares win". i believe they trained State of Vietnam paras as SAS unit known as TDND. TDND 5's emblem is very similar to the SAS. Paris By Night 15:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
For god's sake would someone take in hand the idiot who keeps reverting, without references or logic, the 'winged sword' to a 'flaming dagger'! It's well documented in countless references that it's a winged sword. There are a number of cheap coffee-table books and ill-informed kids website that say otherwise - but check with any official military resource, anybody who's been a para, the Imperial War Museum or any of the countless references and you'll find it's a winged sword (Excalibur) on a crusader shield. Even the article says this, a bit further down. 212.11.178.120 13:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually you are right about the "sword" bit, but wrong about the "wings". Read "The Originals" by Gordon Stevens ISBN 978-0-09-190182-0, Page 57, "(Bob Bennet)....designed by Bob Tait....he called it a Flaming Sword, but it became a winged dagger over the years", "(Johnny Cooper)....Bob Tait MM & Bar....designed it......and it's not a winged dagger. They're flames. The sword of Excalibur. When "The Winged Dagger" came out we laughed our heads off."</ref>
These are the words of "The Originals" and as such can be considered the only truly authoritative source. If both Bob Bennet and Johnny Cooper say it is a flaming sword, and the designer himself, Bob Tait called it that, who are we to argue? It just goes to show that many "references" are quite wrong. I have also spoken directly to an LRDG veteran who knew and worked with many of "The Originals" who confirmed the same thing. It is a sword, is meant to represent Excalibur, and they are definately flames, not wings. They may look like wings but that was not what the disigner had in mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.238.108 ( talk) 00:33, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
Why there is no weapon section ?-- Max Mayr 21:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Because article the sequence written out of. Looking try weapons under information for.
'English speaker' 7th December 2007
I noticed the article makes mention of “ vetting”, but links the word to the article on security clearance. I think that vetting is more concise, and a quick scan of this page tells me there hasn’t been any discussion on the matter, so I’ve gone ahead and changed it. — NRen2k5 15:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed some (relatively minor) edit warring going on over the last day or so about which version of the 'philosophy of the SAS' part to have in the article. Police,Mad,Jack ( talk · contribs) wants this version while Blackshod ( talk · contribs) is going for this version. And apparently I'm not the only one to have noticed it; BillCJ ( talk · contribs) has just reverted the article to the last revision without either of these pieces in until it is sorted out on the talk page, an action I fully agree with.
However, I can't see any real difference between the two (apart from the wording and the lack of references in the first version I linked to above) so I'm somewhat confused as to why this conflict has occurred. I think the best solution would be for the two of you to come up with a compromise here on the talk page and then, once consensus is reached, to add that version back to the main article. Blair - Speak to me 10:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Blackshod included things about no sense of class among wives - what has this to do with the SAS? That was my problem with it.
CORRECTION NEEDED WITH REF: Winged "Sword of Damocles" ring any bells guys Lethargicandstupid ( talk) 12:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Chaps, the former members section is starting to really kick the arse out of inclusion. Is there much objection to, at the very least, culling those without their own unique articles. I'd also question the inclusion of some whose notability is unrelated to their service.
Grateful for any other thoughts.
ALR ( talk) 10:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Nobody?
ALR ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
There is now a artical page to cover this ( Archangel1 ( talk) 17:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC))
Can anyone enlighten me on the criteria for being included in the "Other Special Forces inspired by the SAS" section? It looks like this section get a lot of revisions, I added Sayeret Matkal and it was removed even though I cited a reference. If a consensus can't be made as to qualifying criteria I think this section should be removed. Motti ( talk) 14:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Where an earth did the fact that the SAS provide CP for VIP's? the reference given is a highly un-reliable one. For information CP teams are provided by the Royal Military Police (Close Protection Wing) (the RAF Police also have a smaller CP function). The RMP train the SAS in defensive driving techniques for when the SAS are required to operate undercover mobile surveillance. I am going to remove this mis leading senetence.-- Pandaplodder ( talk) 15:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)