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Let's all be on the lookout for this type of editing: namely, the unilateral "edit war"-style blanking of sourced text without the prior use of "Discussion." It's surely not proper or even collegial. Let's do better. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 15:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Removed text:
The Sparta Battalion has been described as being associated with neo-Nazism in regard to ideology. [1] [2] [3]
References
Guards Colonel Vladimir Zhoga led the Sparta battalion, a neo-Nazi military unit backed by the Kremlin. He was killed last Saturday during battle in the eastern Ukrainian town of Volnovakha.
Justification for removal: "there are no scholar sources that support this thing". We don't need "scholar sources", we need reliable sources. Plus the text says "has been described", which is NPOV; it doesn't say Sparta "is neo-Nazi" in wikivoice. So on the face of it the deleted text seems OK, although I haven't reviewed all the sources. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 08:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Bobfrombrockley: Now it is also written in wikivoice which would be neo-Nazi, [2] I think this is unacceptable. Could you please give your opinion? I also ask the other colleagues, could you explain to me why from 1 january 2014 to 24 february 2022 (the beginning of the war) Google found 0 articles about the "neo-Nazi" ideology of this battalion? Doesn't it seem to you that there is something strange too? Is it possible that there isn't a scholarly source that has investigated this neo-Nazi organization? For example, on the Azov battalion we have tons video documentaries, journalistic inquiries on its ties on neo-Nazi organizations... here we have nothing. Why?-- Mhorg ( talk) 09:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
The coverage in the western media regarding that battalion is small but some indeed describe them as neo-Nazi military unit backed by the Kremlin [4], and there is almost no scholarly coverage. One found is this one [5] but they do not describe Sparta Battalion as Neo-Nazis. How about RfC it? - GizzyCatBella 🍁 11:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Some sources:
One of the most iconic is the Sparta Battalion, part of the armed forces of the “Republic of Donetsk”. The voluntarily-formed unit uses a combination of symbols of the Spartan military culture, well-known drivers of the far-Right, and from the Tsarist era.This might support "far-Right" (not sure), but not "neo-Nazi".
Other far-right militia include the Interbrigades, connected to the Nazbol ‘Other Russia’ organisation, the Svarozhich, Rusich and Ratibor battalions, which sport the ‘Slavic swastika’, the Sparta Battalion, the Duginite Eurasianist Youth, the Nazi Slavic Union and the racist Movement Against Illegal Immigration.He gives no citation but hyperlinks our article, so possibly circular and probably lacking due weight.
when Russia first fomented the conflict in Donbas after annexing Crimea that year, the key military and political leaders in the self-proclaimed separatist “republics” of the Donbas were imported Russian citizens. That includes the first leader of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Alexander Borodai; Donetsk People’s Republic defense minister Igor “Strelkov” Girkin; “Sparta” Battalion leader Arseny “Motorola” Pavlov; and Rusych militia leader and neo-Nazi Alexei Milchakov.If they considered Sparta/Pavlov neo-Nazi like Milchakov, they'd have said.
A RUSSIAN warlord who led the Neo-Nazi Sparta Battalion has been shot dead in Ukraine in another major blow for Vladimir Putin's stalled invasion.- is several hours older than the Mail article, and so more likely the source of the cluster of articles. The Sun is a tabloid; like the Mail it is deprecated ( WP:THESUN).
BobFromBrockley ( talk) 14:30, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
As much as I like seeing "neo-nazi" label in the lead of this article, to be fair I have to say that IMHO it should be removed from there. Specifically, I'd say remove active neo-Nazi
from the first sentense, and reformulate the last sentence of the second paragraph The battalion has been described as a neo-Nazi formation supporting Russian nationalism, traditionalism and neo-tsarist ideals.
to say something softer, like Some allege significant presence of neo-Nazi or Russian nationalism, etc.
(the current sentense also sound that whoever wrote it probably lost in translation the difference between nazism and nationalism). Keep allegations of neo-nazi ties in the body of the text (in Ideology or Controversies sub-section).
Birdofpreyru (
talk)
11:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L:2015:040:FULL&from=EN Xx236 ( talk) 06:35, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
No controversial category, comparing to Azov Battalion categories. Biased. Xx236 ( talk) 12:40, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Newsweek (2013–present). Unlike articles before 2013, post-2013 Newsweek articles are not generally reliable. From 2013 to 2018, Newsweek was owned and operated by IBT Media, the parent company of International Business Times. IBT Media introduced a number of bad practices to the once reputable magazine and mainly focused on clickbait headlines over quality journalism. Its current relationship with IBT Media is unclear, and Newsweek's quality has not returned to its status prior to the 2013 purchase. Many editors have noted that there are several exceptions to this standard, so consensus is to evaluate Newsweek content on a case-by-case basis. See also: Newsweek (pre-2013).
Very well. @ GizzyCatBella:, @ Birdofpreyru: and @ Deepfriedokra: and other Wikipedia users: do you think these Newsweek articles are reliable? https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-was-russian-delegate-censored-sky-news-over-nazi-claims-1705761 and https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-every-russian-commander-killed-fighting-ukraine-war-1691064-- Let me know - Karma1998 ( talk) 12:30, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I would like to relaunch these three academic sources about the links of the Sparta Battalion with far-right ideology. They had already been mentioned in this talk and I think they need further consideration:
Waiting for opinions. I have not used articles from tabloids and Newsweek since they are not considered to be reliable.-- Karma1998 ( talk) 19:07, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sparta Battalion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Let's all be on the lookout for this type of editing: namely, the unilateral "edit war"-style blanking of sourced text without the prior use of "Discussion." It's surely not proper or even collegial. Let's do better. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 15:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Removed text:
The Sparta Battalion has been described as being associated with neo-Nazism in regard to ideology. [1] [2] [3]
References
Guards Colonel Vladimir Zhoga led the Sparta battalion, a neo-Nazi military unit backed by the Kremlin. He was killed last Saturday during battle in the eastern Ukrainian town of Volnovakha.
Justification for removal: "there are no scholar sources that support this thing". We don't need "scholar sources", we need reliable sources. Plus the text says "has been described", which is NPOV; it doesn't say Sparta "is neo-Nazi" in wikivoice. So on the face of it the deleted text seems OK, although I haven't reviewed all the sources. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 08:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Bobfrombrockley: Now it is also written in wikivoice which would be neo-Nazi, [2] I think this is unacceptable. Could you please give your opinion? I also ask the other colleagues, could you explain to me why from 1 january 2014 to 24 february 2022 (the beginning of the war) Google found 0 articles about the "neo-Nazi" ideology of this battalion? Doesn't it seem to you that there is something strange too? Is it possible that there isn't a scholarly source that has investigated this neo-Nazi organization? For example, on the Azov battalion we have tons video documentaries, journalistic inquiries on its ties on neo-Nazi organizations... here we have nothing. Why?-- Mhorg ( talk) 09:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
The coverage in the western media regarding that battalion is small but some indeed describe them as neo-Nazi military unit backed by the Kremlin [4], and there is almost no scholarly coverage. One found is this one [5] but they do not describe Sparta Battalion as Neo-Nazis. How about RfC it? - GizzyCatBella 🍁 11:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Some sources:
One of the most iconic is the Sparta Battalion, part of the armed forces of the “Republic of Donetsk”. The voluntarily-formed unit uses a combination of symbols of the Spartan military culture, well-known drivers of the far-Right, and from the Tsarist era.This might support "far-Right" (not sure), but not "neo-Nazi".
Other far-right militia include the Interbrigades, connected to the Nazbol ‘Other Russia’ organisation, the Svarozhich, Rusich and Ratibor battalions, which sport the ‘Slavic swastika’, the Sparta Battalion, the Duginite Eurasianist Youth, the Nazi Slavic Union and the racist Movement Against Illegal Immigration.He gives no citation but hyperlinks our article, so possibly circular and probably lacking due weight.
when Russia first fomented the conflict in Donbas after annexing Crimea that year, the key military and political leaders in the self-proclaimed separatist “republics” of the Donbas were imported Russian citizens. That includes the first leader of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Alexander Borodai; Donetsk People’s Republic defense minister Igor “Strelkov” Girkin; “Sparta” Battalion leader Arseny “Motorola” Pavlov; and Rusych militia leader and neo-Nazi Alexei Milchakov.If they considered Sparta/Pavlov neo-Nazi like Milchakov, they'd have said.
A RUSSIAN warlord who led the Neo-Nazi Sparta Battalion has been shot dead in Ukraine in another major blow for Vladimir Putin's stalled invasion.- is several hours older than the Mail article, and so more likely the source of the cluster of articles. The Sun is a tabloid; like the Mail it is deprecated ( WP:THESUN).
BobFromBrockley ( talk) 14:30, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
As much as I like seeing "neo-nazi" label in the lead of this article, to be fair I have to say that IMHO it should be removed from there. Specifically, I'd say remove active neo-Nazi
from the first sentense, and reformulate the last sentence of the second paragraph The battalion has been described as a neo-Nazi formation supporting Russian nationalism, traditionalism and neo-tsarist ideals.
to say something softer, like Some allege significant presence of neo-Nazi or Russian nationalism, etc.
(the current sentense also sound that whoever wrote it probably lost in translation the difference between nazism and nationalism). Keep allegations of neo-nazi ties in the body of the text (in Ideology or Controversies sub-section).
Birdofpreyru (
talk)
11:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L:2015:040:FULL&from=EN Xx236 ( talk) 06:35, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
No controversial category, comparing to Azov Battalion categories. Biased. Xx236 ( talk) 12:40, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Newsweek (2013–present). Unlike articles before 2013, post-2013 Newsweek articles are not generally reliable. From 2013 to 2018, Newsweek was owned and operated by IBT Media, the parent company of International Business Times. IBT Media introduced a number of bad practices to the once reputable magazine and mainly focused on clickbait headlines over quality journalism. Its current relationship with IBT Media is unclear, and Newsweek's quality has not returned to its status prior to the 2013 purchase. Many editors have noted that there are several exceptions to this standard, so consensus is to evaluate Newsweek content on a case-by-case basis. See also: Newsweek (pre-2013).
Very well. @ GizzyCatBella:, @ Birdofpreyru: and @ Deepfriedokra: and other Wikipedia users: do you think these Newsweek articles are reliable? https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-was-russian-delegate-censored-sky-news-over-nazi-claims-1705761 and https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-every-russian-commander-killed-fighting-ukraine-war-1691064-- Let me know - Karma1998 ( talk) 12:30, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I would like to relaunch these three academic sources about the links of the Sparta Battalion with far-right ideology. They had already been mentioned in this talk and I think they need further consideration:
Waiting for opinions. I have not used articles from tabloids and Newsweek since they are not considered to be reliable.-- Karma1998 ( talk) 19:07, 16 May 2022 (UTC)