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Perhaps we should include the fact that some native speakers, perhaps in an attempt to be "educated", pronounce both the b and the v in Spanish as a voiced labiodental fricative (English v). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.246.153.217 ( talk) 04:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, can someone add a trapezium to the vowel diagram, please? Thanks. -- Kjoon lee 02:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Bowen & Stockwell (1955) say (p 237) "In normal transition, two unstressed vowels are [v̆v]" with the first being shorter than the second and gives the following examples.
Does that mean that Martínez-Celdrán et al (2003) are incorrect in transcribing maestro as [mae̯stɾo]? Bowen & Stockwell also seem to transcribe /iw/ and /uj/ where Martínez-Celdrán et al as well as Sparkman (1943) and Harris (1969) have transcribed or implied /ju/ and /wi/ respectively. Sparkman also cites Navarro Tomás (p 64) in pointing that ui is [uj] northern Spain (meaning it is [wi] elsewhere).
I'm not really sure what sort of generalization to make/accept in regards to the process of Spanish diphthongization. Any Thoughts? — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 09:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
It has occurred to me that the recent series of reversions and counterreversions might seem like an edit war between two uncompromising editors. If it were simply an issue of sources, I would be willing to mark certain statements with {{ fact}}. However, the anon editor has shown on this page and others to be deliberately dishonest in attributing sources. Here are some examples:
This false attribution is enough for me to do blind reverts and to not trust any anon editor who behaves like the series of IP addresses who have been adding and re-adding these and other edits. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Since when this is necessary to know:
| opaco || /oˈpako/ || 'opaque' || opacidad || /opaθiˈdad/ || 'opacity' |-
| sueco || /ˈsweko/ || 'Swedish' || suecia || /ˈsweθja/ || 'Sweden' |-
| belga || /ˈbelga/ || ' Belgium' || bélgico || /ˈbelxiko/ || 'Belgian' |-
| análogo || /aˈnalogo/ || 'analogous' || analogía || /analoˈxia/ || 'analogy' |}
Even, that Spanish is wrong; belga is Belgian and Bélgica is Belgium.
I see very uncompleted this article. Spanish has got a lot of allophones, which should be included in parenthese on the Spanish sounds chart. They are real sounds, although they are not distinguishable, they are articulated by the Spanish speakers. It is unfair how other languages as German, French, etc. specify loan sounds from other languages on their phonology articles, and you see such a poor information about the Spanish language. 84.120.160.122 ( talk) 17:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I suggest to modify the Spanish consonant table.
As it is now, the article looks a bit disorganised. If this article is about an in-depth explanation about the Spanish phonology, it should include all/or most allophones. JAuMeh** ( talk) 16:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Per this article, the voiced stops in club de fútbol are all frics. Are they really? Also, I would expect some assimilation in fútbol, with the tb maybe [db]. kwami ( talk) 10:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Many other articles of phonology add them, and these sounds are articulated by the Spanish speakers.
Spanish is a global language, it has got several major dialects juts as GA, RP, AE, etc. In the English phonology article it is well explained in different charts the variation of the vowels and diphthongs from dialect to dialect. In Spanish occurs a lot of alternation in the pronunciation from the major dialects to the major dialects (mainly consonant changes, but also vowels openings, and vowels nasalitasion, which is common in Southern Spain, Caribbean, Venezuela, Argentina... ) mainly the pronunciation of "s", which could be articulated in many ways (/h/, /s/, /silent with vowel opening/). In Spain the zones that drop "s" are Andalusia, Murcia, Extremadura, South Castile-La Mancha, South Valencian Community, the Canary Islands, Ceuta, and Melilla. In South America this is common as well in Venezuela, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Caribbean coast of Colombia, Panama, Chile, and Argentina. This should be highlighted on the article. It is remarkable that here it is added a sound /θ/ which is only articulated by less than 30 millions of people of all the speakers of Spanish, and it forgets about the /ʒ/ articulation of ll/y which is articulated by more people than articulates /θ/. Argentinians, Uruguayans and Paraguayans cannot see their sound there represented? It is as fear /θ/ as /ʒ/. And Spanish from northern Spain is a main dialect as well, as Argentinian-Paraguayan-Uruguayan.
The charts could be based in "the innovative pronunciation of Spanish" (Southern Spain, the Canary Islands, Venezuelan, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican Republica, Panama, Argentina), and "the conservative pronunciation of Spanish" (Northern Spanish dialect, Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia...). And a better way would be getting based on this map, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Variedades_principales_del_espa%C3%B1ol.png
Americans and Australians would not be very happy in the case they do not represent their vowel pronunciation on the English phonological article, and it would only have the Receive Pronunciation, which is far less used than the GA. Just the same happens with Spanish. Spanish as well has got different patterns and ways of pronunciation based on this map, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Variedades_principales_del_espa%C3%B1ol.png
I would be glad to help the improvement of this article.
84.120.141.138 ( talk) 20:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
There are other pattern dialects aside the one shown here on this table of consonants. For those speakers from Andalusia, Canary Islands, Murcia, Venezuela, Cuba, Dominican Republic, blah, blah, blah... If these dialects drop "s" or turn it into /h/, won't exist other sounds, as /θ/, /z/, /ð/ (not /ð̞/).
Also lacks some explantion about vowels. Mid-vowels /e̞/ and /o̞/ might close and open to close-mid [e - o] and open-mid [ɛ - ɔ]. And it should be said that mid-vowels /e̞/ and /o̞/ are instable and could tend to be pronounced [e - o] and [ɛ - ɔ]. Many dictionaries differences following a rule of Tomás Navarro Tomás. [Spanish] Las vocales medias /e/ y /o/ presentan unos alófonos algo abiertos y cerrados, muy aproximados a [ɛ] y [o], en las siguientes posiciones:
En contacto con el sonido de doble erre ("rr") /r/, como en "perro", "torre", "remo", "roca". Cuando van precediendo al sonido /x/, como en "teja", "hoja". Cuando van formando parte de un diptongo decreciente, como en "peine", "boina". Además, el alófono abierto de /o/ se produce en toda sílaba que se encuentre trabada por consonante y el alófono abierto de /e/ aparece cuando se haya trabado por cualquier consonante que no sea /d/, /m/ y /n/: "pelma", "pesca", "pez", "costa", "olmo". El fonema /a/ presenta tres variedades alofónicas:
Una variedad palatal, cuando precede a consonantes palatales, como en "malla", "facha", "despacho". Otra variante velarizada se produce cuando precede a las vocales /o/, /u/ o a las consonantes /l/, /x/: "ahora", "pausa", "palma", "maja". Una variante media, que se realiza en los contornos no expresados en los párrafos anteriores: "caro", "compás", "sultán". 84.120.141.138 ( talk) 06:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The English phonology article adds /x/ on the consonant table in brackets, and with a number clarifies it. It says:
dental Dental Alveolar Post- alveolar2 Palatal Velar Glottal Nasal1 m n ŋ Plosive p b t d k ɡ Affricate tʃ dʒ Fricative f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ (x)3 h Approximant ɹ1, 2, 5 j w4 Lateral l1, 6
What that article says:
Labial Dental/ Alveolar Palato- alveolar Palatal Velar Uvular plain lab. Nasal m n ɲ ŋ1 Plosive p b t d k ɡ Fricative f v s z ʃ ʒ ʁ2 Approximant3 j4 ɥ w Lateral l (ʎ)4
Why is not fear to add real sounds to the Spanish consonant chart, whereas other languages add loanwords sounds and almost non-existent sounds as /ʎ/ (I have never EVER heard this sound in French!!)and /ŋ/ in French and /x/ in English.
84.120.141.138 ( talk) 07:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
http://liceu.uab.cat/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/fonetica_espanol_segmental.html#fonemas_esp
http://revistas.ucm.es/fll/0212999x/articulos/RFRM9090110075A.PDF
Spanish main dialects, and Spanish spoken in the media: http://www.colmex.mx/academicos/cell/ravila/docs/Pronunciacion.pdf
Would you please check these links? These ones contain a lot of information about the Spanish phonology and phonetics:
http://liceu.uab.cat/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/variacion_fonetica_espanol.html
http://liceu.uab.cat/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/IPA_vow_sp.html
http://liceu.uab.cat/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/fonetica_espanol_segmental.html#fonemas_esp
The sentence "Las estrellas parecen espejos" and "los dos" can be pronounced
Bolivian Spanish: http://cvc.cervantes.es/obref/aih/pdf/06/aih_06_1_090.pdf
(/ʃ/) could be added as well, there are common English loan words, plus other, which are pronounced with /ʃ/ as show, fashion, flash, squash... 84.120.141.138 ( talk) 21:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Another thing, this article says: Caribbean dialects, as well as those of Panama and of the Atlantic coast off Colombia, exhibit a form of simplification of coda consonants. It should be added, this feature is also done in Andalusia, Murcia, Extremadura, South Castile-La Mancha, Canary Islands, and also in Venezuela. ven pronounced /bẽ/. However Andalusian phonology is more complex and they drop more sounds or mutate them.
Final /d/ or more real [ð̞], is common to be silent in most of the Spanish speaking countries. Nowadays it is dropped most of the times, Madrid or usted are correctly pronounced [ma'ð̞ri] and [us'te̞], and [ma'ð̞rið̞] and [us'te̞ð̞], other possible pronunciations are [ma'ð̞riθ] and [us'te̞θ], and [ma'ð̞rit] and [us'te̞t]. < http://culturitalia.uibk.ac.at/hispanoteca/Foro-preguntas/ARCHIVO-Foro/d%20final%20de%20palabra.htm
It is not fear the point of writing phonology articles, does it follows the same pattern in all of them? As, as far I can see it says unlogical things, as in the French one including /ʎ/ and the English one including /x/ a sound only pronounced in Scotland. So, in Spanish can we include the sounds in Andalusia, which forms the Kingdom of Spain as much as Scotland forms the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I don't see logic on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.199.233 ( talk) 16:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
84.120.141.138 ( talk) 06:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
/ʰ/, /ʒ/, /ŋ/, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.199.233 ( talk) 22:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Am I correct in understanding that Ávila is saying (page 10) that varieties that have /θ/ don’t have /ʃ/ and vice versa? — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is not *useful* for my purpose of quickly finding a summary with dialect (how about 2 dialects ??) differentiation of allophones. It appears to lack simple tables or lists of simple examples for consonant sounds. Since I am trying to learn these I am not able to write the article; those who can - please do. I can go read Martínez-Celdrán for in-depth phonemics. Thanks ! Netrapt ( talk) 03:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I have read through this, and thing like nasal vowels,/θ/,[z],[v],[χ], are purely dialectal and should be noted as such. Also, germination occurs in phrases such as "son nuevos" in some dialects, instead of [ˈsõ̞ ˈnwe̞βo̞s]. Does any one else see this problem? Is this not Spanish phonology and not purely mainstream European Spanish phonology? ₭øμt̪ũ ( talk) 19:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
As in the English phonology article, it is so well explained the vowel alternation among American English (GA), British English (RP), Australian English... In Spanish occurs alternation in consonants, from Mexico to Argentina, and from Castile to Andalusia and the Spanish speaking countries in the Caribbean. Why can I only see the pattern from Castile, and not the most spoken pattern as the Mexico one? Or just any other pattern than this one. Mexican Spanish tends to drop vowels, whereas other dialects tend to drop consonants and open vowels, etc.
Moreover [z] and [v] are sounds from Mexican Spanish, inland Colombian Spanish, in addition to Castilian Spanish. But these sounds are not pronounced in the Spanish Caribbean dialects, Southern Spain and the Canary Islands, most of Argentina and Uruguay.
Mexican Spanish, tends to drop vowels and pronounce all the consonants, this dialect does not drop /s/, /x/... They use [z], [v] but not /θ/~[ð] (it is not the same than [ð̞])... In fact, "durazno" is pronounced [du'ɾazno̞]. Yes the "z" is [z]. "Asno" is pronounced as ['azno̞]. In Castilian (Northern and Central Spain), "durazno" would be pronounced [du'ɾaðno̞] and "asno" the same than in Mexico, ['azno̞]. In Andalusian, and the rest of the s-dropping dialects could be, ['ahno], ['anno] and ['æ̞no] In Mexican Spanish they reduce vowels, to complete omission. Trastos [tɾasts]. 86.177.205.131 ( talk) 14:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
What sub-dialect of Mexican Spanish are you referring to? I have never heard [v] in it, and I thought it was nonexistent in any dialect of Spanish( except for uneducated Spanish in the U.S.) But I have heard of the voicing of s before a nasal( from my mothers side), but its not existent in all. ₭øμt̪ũ 23:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
/v/ doesn't exist in Spanish, only by some educated and bilingual people who might use it in Spanish; the sound /v/ exists in Alicante, Valencia, Castellón and the Balearic Islands by bilingual speakers. Most people who speak catalan/valencian in these places pronounce /v/ in Spanish. There are also educated Spanish speakers from Spain and South America who pronounce /v/ and not /b/, however this is not standard as Spanish lacks of this sound.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialecto_churro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balearic#See_also
What I was talking about is [v], as "an allophone of /f/", (do not get confused with /v/, the phoneme). [v] or a voiced /f/, exists in Spanish, the /f/ as /s/, needs to be in contact with a voiced consonant to be pronounced as [v] and [z]. ['davne̞] Dafne, [av'ɣ˕ano̞] afgano; asno ['azno]. These sounds are allophones. I've listened to so many singers who use /v/ all the time without pronouncing it as /b/. And I have met very educated South Americans, as Venezuelans, and Chilians who pronounce "v" as /v/ and not /b/. The s-voicing [z] doesn't exist in the dialects that drop consonants and mainly "s" (so obvious). So, if your dialect doesn't drop consonants and you pronounce /s/ you might also pronounce [z].
Another thing, in Spain the English word "pub" is pronounced /paf/, yes with an /f/. But, "club" is pronounced /klub/. So, in Spain the sentence "el pub de Marta" would be pronounced [e̞l pav ð̞e̞ 'maɾta] It is also remarkable the pronunciation of the word "ovni", which i've heard so many times ['o̞vni], yes with [v]. And also, but much less ['o̞β̞ni].
This is a never ending story. The Spanish phonology article doesn't show the main differences amongst the main Spanish dialects as the English one does. You can see on the English phonology article how the British pronounce, and also how do the Americans and the Australians. Americans use an r-coloured vowel whereas British drops "r"... Well very similar in Spanish, but the letter is not "r" but "s". So, what about the Spanish phonology article?!?! An Andalusian would pronounce different from a Castilian as an America would from a British... And what about the Mexican, Argentinian. This article continues to be so poor and deficient. You include on the English phonology article the /x/ for a sound it only appears in Scotland. Is it the most spoken English accent in the world? I don't get why you can say on the English phonology article /x/ exists for only a word "loch" where most of the speakers pronounce it with /k/ at the end. And you cannot say real information about the main Spanish dialects on this article.
The English phonology article includes sounds from the Scottish English /x/, and the Spanish one doesn't even include sounds from South America, or even allophones properly so that people can see the REAL pronunciation because you don't allow it, even though there are loads of sources with more information to put on here. The French phonology article includes /ʎ/ (dialectal) and /ŋ/ (loan from English)...
Anyway, this is Wikipedia :)
92.4.203.3 ( talk) 01:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
"Consonants in parentheses are phonemes of Standard Spanish but absent in many dialects, especially those in Latin America".
The /ʎ/ sound does exist in Latin America, it is common in Paraguay, Bolivia and some parts of Peru and Colombia. So that sentence is wrong. 149.254.58.41 ( talk) 00:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I think it should be better said, "Consonants in parentheses are phonemes of Standard Spanish but absent in many dialects". without referring to Latin America. In Spain itself there are zones where /ʎ/ and /θ/ don't exist; as the Canary Islands, many zones of Andalusia, etc. There are zones in Spain where /θ/ doesn't exist but exists /ʎ/, this occurs in the South of Alicante, some parts of Galicia. Also, there are zones where /ʎ/ doesn't exist but /θ/ exists, many parts of Andalusia. Another thing is that /ʎ/ doesn't exist in some metropolitan areas of Spain. It exists though in the second largest city of Spain, Barcelona. 92.3.132.146 ( talk) 17:53, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, only /θ/ exists in Spain, and I think it does in Equatorial Guinea as well, I don't know that much about it. However /ʎ/ is still common in few countries of South America, mainly in Bolivia and Paraguay. So, you can say that sentence if you refer to /θ/. 92.3.132.146 ( talk) 19:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I think that /w/ and /j/ (written hi- and hu- plus vowel)are phonemes, for example:
Huevo (egg) /weβ̞o/
Hielo (ice) /jelo/
Maybe in most dialects hie- and ye- are homophones, but in Argentinean Spanish and many others, there is s distinction between hie- and ye-, for example:
Hielo (ice) is pronounced /jelo/
and Yelo is pronounced /ʃelo/ —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tuuagso (
talk •
contribs)
19:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
For a better view, and for contrasting with the mid-close vowels, /e/ and /o/, and the mid-open vowels, /ɛ/ and /ɔ/. The Spanish vowels "e" and "o" are real mid vowels, it should be added for people to see the Spanish vowels are somehow higher than /e/ and somehow lower than /ɛ/. Same for "o". 86.177.200.58 ( talk) 01:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I quote from above:
There is not just one Standard Spanish. Every country has its Standard Spanish, and this article focuses on Standard Spanish from Spain. Not even Real Academia Española is so ethnocentric.
167.107.191.217 ( talk) 17:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
It would be nice to have a link to any Spanish dictionary which has actual support to show the user the Spanish phonology in IPA. Unfortunately I am not aware of such a dictionary. All dictionaries I know (rae.es, EUDict, SpanishDict) do not have this. SpanishDict actually does but only a (subjective) non-IPA version e.g. denunciar [day-noon-the-ar’]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobiaswunner ( talk • contribs) 15:47, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
'Gran diccionario español-portugués' (Espasa) has IPA-indicated pronunciation of Spanish. It can be found online with free of charge:
Gran diccionario español-portugués (Espasa) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Linda Martens (
talk •
contribs)
20:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
What is dropped in [beˈnian]? -- Error ( talk) 21:07, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Under "Phonetic notes", at the end of the third paragraph, the phonemic renditions of "ley" and "leyes" unfortunately look like lowercase versions of "LEL" and "LELES". Wiki's sans-serif font makes it impossible to distinguish between the uppercase vowel "I" and lowercase "L". The footnoted apology seems like an inadequate response to the problem. Can Wikipedia access a serifed font? What other solutions are available? Kotabatubara ( talk) 20:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
So, I was talking with a friend about Spanish, and I decided to come here in search of an explanation for the epenthetic /e/ in words like estados or Esteban. Instead of information that tells us 'why' Spanish speakers decided to insert an /e/ in front of otherwise word-initial /s/, I find this: "Because of these phonotactic constraints, an epenthetic /e/ is inserted before word-initial cluster beginning with /s/ (e.g. escribir 'to write') but not word-internally (transcribir 'to transcribe'),[66] thereby moving the initial /s/ to a separate syllable." That is not an explanation, it's a reification of the data couched in terms of a phonological analysis. If one unpacks the statement, what we're saying is "Spanish speakers insert /e/ in front of word-initial /s/," but that is not an explanation that I can imagine native Spanish speakers assenting to. The History of Spanish article has nothing really to say about it, and as my linguistic interests lie in other areas I'm not exactly the person to deal with it. It definitely is something that needs fixing. Duke Atreides ( talk) 21:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) There was a Romance-wide change that occurred in Proto-Romance and added short /i/ onto the beginning of all clusters of /s/+consonant. The /i/ was lowered to mid-high /e/ in Western Romance (the ancestors of Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese) by the standard Western Romance vowel changes. This /e/ was later deleted in Italian; this is why Italian now has a prefix s- meaning "un", from Latin ex- (Romance es-). Now why was this the case? Why do any historical changes occur, and why do they occur in some places but not others? There aren't really good answers for this. There are general tendencies (e.g. bilabial /ɸ/ tends to become labiodental /f/ because the latter is a lot more prominent) but no way to predict when certain changes happen. Why did Old French have an extremely heavy stress accent but now French has basically no accent at all? Why did Middle French delete almost all final consonants but now French heavily favors closed consonant-final monosyllables? Why have vowels been so stable but consonants so unstable in the last 2000 years or so of Spanish, and why is it precisely the opposite in English? Benwing ( talk) 07:53, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
There used to be a very detailed description of allophones etc. in this article. Where is it?-- 90.179.235.249 ( talk) 18:10, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
While the actual phonology is an interesting topic, there is nothing on this page that would give someone the basics. Spanish pronunciation links here, but when the average person searches for that, they just want to know how to pronounce a word. A phonemically correct pronunciation is simple to explain, and can be sourced from nearly any Spanish/English dictionary.
While Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus the current content is suitable, it is a general purpose encyclopedia. If at all possible, each article needs to be made where a layman can get a basic idea of the subject. This appears to be written for phonologists.
It won't take much: just that basic list of the closest English representations of the Spanish phonemes. While there are some esoteric dialects of English, it is fairly simple to get one that works for 90% of speakers. And the remaining 10% with a different dialect usually at least know about the dialect of the other 90%, so they would also be helped.
Finally, I could see this being part of the introduction, or a separate article. Pronunciation and phonology are not typically used to mean the same thing, so a basic article at Spanish pronunciation that links to this one for more information would be useful.
Then again, it could pretty much be a table, like the one used in Wikipedia:IPA for Spanish. Heck, if that were a proper encyclopedia article, I'd just make Spanish pronunciation redirect there, since that's what the average person will want to know. — trlkly 17:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Done Benwing ( talk) 01:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
This article uses non-IPA pronunciation symbols, namely [s̠ s̄ θ̦ θṣ]. It would be nice if these were corrected to proper IPA symbols. -- mach ᵗᵃˡᵏ👍 06:03, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
I see now that Martinez-Celdran et al are claiming that trilled r occurs syllable-finally. Maybe, possibly, in highly exaggerated formal speech like you might hear from radio announcers, but hardly in normal circumstances. Most sources claim that trilled r only occurs initially, when written <rr> or after /l/, /n/ and /s/ (and in these latter circumstances it's somewhat questionable; citing from memory, one source said that a normal trilled r is something like 3-5 taps while after /l/, /n/, /s/ it's only 1-2 taps; also, the Spanish-Portuguese dictionary link that someone else gave has a tap in Israel -- as well as, of course, syllable-finally in words such as carta and amor).
I'll have to go see what Martinez-Celdran et al actually say, but if they don't qualify what they say about r, I'd take a great deal else of what they say with a lot of salt as well. Benwing ( talk) 03:27, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't think we need a separate Spanish pronunciation article that is, in essence, a content fork that repeats WP:IPA for Spanish and duplicates the format that this article was in before the large bulky tables were converted into actual prose. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 21:02, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
The article currently states: A common pronunciation of /f/ in nonstandard speech is the voiceless bilabial fricative [ɸ], so that fuera is pronounced [ˈɸweɾa] rather than [ˈfweɾa]. Are [f] and [ɸ] in free variation or is there a condition?
The example currently used could be taken as indicating that [ɸ] occurs only before bilabial constrictions such as [w], which would make a lot of sense phonetically. (Or perhaps [ɸ] was historically an allophone of */h/ before liquids and glides, and its retention in this position is an archaism, while /f/ is a later reintroduction from Latin, with which [ɸ] was subsequently merged? Just wild speculation.)
Moreover, I've noticed that Voiceless bilabial fricative#Occurrence lists an additional source of this sound, namely as an allophone of /b/ after [h] as an allophone of /s/, not only the devoicing of [β̞] (or the phoneme /b/) in syllabic coda position. Perhaps this might also merit mention? -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 18:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
"Even in formal speech, /m/ is disallowed in word-final position, so a word such as Islam is regularly rendered as /isˈlan/."
"Slim is pronounced /es'lim/". These two statements conflict. Should the article explain? TomS TDotO ( talk) 11:35, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
The article says: The phoneme /ʃ/ only occurs in loanwords, in many dialects there is a tendency to substitute it for /tʃ/ or /s/.
This is a comma splice and that makes the meaning unclear. Does this mean that the dialects use /tʃ/ or /s/ instead of /ʃ/ (the erroneous sense of "substitute" as a synonym for "replace"), or /ʃ/ instead of /tʃ/ or /s/ (the correct meaning of "substitute")? The comment about loanwords would suggest it is the former, but the second part of the sentence suggests it is the latter. Using "replace ... with ..." or "use ... instead of ..." (and resolving the comma splice) would make the meaning clearer. — 146.179.8.172 ( talk) 14:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
There is an example given: Examples of maximal codas: instalar /ins.taˈlar/, perspectiva /pers.pekˈti.ba/
I was under the assumption that Spanish can't have s in syllable final position unless there is a vowel before it. For example, you have goles "goals" but you don't have *gols. Shouldn't it be per.spek.ti.ba? 190.237.91.214 ( talk) 17:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Not mentioned in this article, nor on its own elsewhere, is the phenomenon of enlace. Is this an oversight or has it been determined that this doesn't exist in the wikiworld? 71.87.23.22 ( talk) 16:12, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello. I've noticed that more often than not, word-initial /b/ is realized as an approximant [ β̞, rather than a plosive [ b. The environment I'm talking about is word-initial after a pause (as in vamos or Victoria), not word-initial immediately after a word ending with a vowel. I've noticed that in Mexican and Argentinian accents, but it's probably more widespread than that. Does anyone have a source to back that up? Peter238 ( talk) 22:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I've seen you (Aeusoes1) have reverted my editions. Does Saporta (1956) mention nasals are fully omitted in this case? IMO no one in Standard Castilian omits /n/, not even when there are two /nn/. What can you say about this? Regards —
Jɑuмe (
dis-me)
08:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Does the original transcription from the source you added include diacritics on the vowels? If it doesn't, I understand [ⁿ] is also omitted. Or perhaps there's a typo mistake.—
Jɑuмe (
dis-me)
08:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Also, does Saporta include a full nasal/nasalized vowel? I think [õ] (like in Portuguese bom), instead of [õN], is totally wrong and unacceptable in the Standard. Phonetic nasalisation can occur in Spanish but it's not as exaggerated as in Portuguese, this transcription ([sõ(.n)]) suggests son is pronounced like bom —
Jɑuмe (
dis-me)
08:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
I think we should be consistent with the treatment of nasals in Standard Castilian, if you ignore /n/ you're being ambiguous and incorrect among some groups. —
Jɑuмe (
dis-me)
09:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Word | IPA | Gloss |
---|---|---|
cinto | [sĩⁿtʊ] | 'belt' |
sento | [sẽⁿtʊ] | 'I sit' |
santo | [sɐ̃ⁿtʊ] | 'saint' |
sondo | [sõⁿdʊ] | 'I probe' |
sunto | [sũⁿtʊ] | 'summed up' |
This is not an issue of English perspective/non-English perspective. I don't think you're reading my messages carefully. I'm talking about the official IPA usage of the [ⁿ] sign, which signifies exclusively nasal release, which applies only to stop consonants. The answer to "why is this not IPA" (or rather "why is this not official IPA") has already been given - re-read my messages, nasal release and nasalization. I'm not saying using [ⁿ] for things other than nasal release is "wrong" or "bad", I'm saying it's not a part of the official IPA. I don't care how people use that sign. Peter238 ( talk) 12:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi I've just noticed a user (Peter238) has unanimously deleted all the diacritics without previous notice stating that they're useless, I would like to know why this has been decided? IMO I don't think this is accurate and right to do without discussion, especially because using diacritics is not a mistake — Jɑuмe ( dis-me) 04:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Interesting link, thanks, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say by "you could display [e, o] only if they were close mid". Llisterri states that Spanish /e, o/ have two allophones: close-mid [e, o] and open-mid (not mid) [e̞, o̞] (it's not a wrong transcription, but it's less ambiguous to write simply [ɛ, ɔ]). Peter238 ( talk) 18:08, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
I was comparing the consonant tables from the phonology articles of Spanish, English and Japanese and noticed they have different headers for the same sounds, which I find confusing. For instance, /p/ is "Labial Stop" here, "Bilabial Stop" in English phonology, and "Bilabial Plosive" in Japanese phonology. Is there any reason why the categories' names aren't standardized? (I just got started learning IPA, sorry if I'm missing something) - Aekorus ( talk) 19:25, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
In the Consonants section, the table for phonemes has a Continuants row. All of the sounds in that row are fricatives. There are no approximants. Why doesn't it just say Fricatives? Mechanic1c ( talk) 18:15, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello.
Any thoughts (or, even better, sources)? Mr KEBAB ( talk) 22:27, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I am a native speaker of Spanish from Argentina. Here the prevalent pronunciation of Spanish is that of the Rioplatense Spanish where you have the phoneme /ʃ/ for the sound realization of "ll-" or beginning-of-syllable "y-" and the corresponding allophone /ʒ/. Thus /ʃ/ is not an allophone of /ʎ/ itself, but a dialectal phoneme, as stated in the Spanish article for Spanish Phonology ( https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonolog%C3%ADa_del_espa%C3%B1ol#Sonidos_conson.C3.A1nticos ) where you can check the consideration of /ʃ/ as a variant phoneme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thetucu ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
I really liked how many sources were used in this article. Plus, it was very specific in that it described the various sounds and sound combinations in the Spanish language, but also had a huge list of notes and references discussing even more sound phrases and certain words and their pronunciations. I also found the use of visuals helpful as well. This made for a very interesting read, and describes Spanish phonology very thoroughly. -- Sakuragalaxxy ( talk) 08:51, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Anybody know what undertack means? Kortoso ( talk) 21:01, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
None of the so called 'falling diphthongs' are diphthongs, those are just sequences of a consonant (/j/ or /w/) and a vowel, and these can only be considered diphthongs if one does phonology based on orthography. There is no diphthong on English words like 'web' or 'yet' either, so I don't see why these are considered as such on this page.
On the other 'diphthongs' occurring in fast speech in words with sequences of /CeV, CoV, CaV/, these are semi-approximants as well (which aren't vowels either). When it comes to 'triphthongs', /wai/,/wei/ only have diphthongs after a consonant.
Real diphthongs could be added /ia/ in 'día', /io/ in 'navío' or 'tío', /ui/ in 'cocuy' (/koˈkui/), /ua/ in 'grúa' or 'púa', /uo/ in 'búho', /ao/ in 'caos'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.44.66.135 ( talk) 16:49, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Spanish has no magical capabilities of breaking the real phonetic behavior of consonants" but it sounds like you're ignoring the phonetic information I gave you and saying that there is some platonic ideal of [j]. If you're going to ignore my points and provide no sourcing to back up your claims about phonetics and phonology in general and Spanish specifically, there's not much point in discussing this. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:54, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
It is not a big deal for scientists to say: "The word XYZ has been used in a number of different ways. I'm using it here in sense A and not in sense B." Without such definitions scientific writing becomes ambiguous and immediately loses its scientific value.
We should also state in which sense the term diphthong is used here, and that it is not the sense that excludes the sounds of English you and we. Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 06:10, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
So, the article says there is no phonemic contrast between voiced and voiceless obstruents in the coda position, right? And voiceless obstruents become voiced before other voiced consonants. But what about in the word-final position before a pause? The article is vague about that. Do /t d/ and /θ/ merge in that position, too? I'm not a Spanish speaker myself and I'm in the Western Hemisphere anyway, so practically all the Spanish I hear locally has no /θ/ whatsoever (only /s/), but I find the topic of Spanish phonotactics as a whole rather fascinating. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 21:38, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm talking about what's mentioned in Spanish phonology#Obstruents. Earlier I repeated a detail from that section in another section, Spanish phonology#Phonotactics, but another editor reverted the edit. And this is symptomatic of the central problem—the information provided in the article does not seem clear enough. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 02:07, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
"When it comes to codas, however, the options are considerably more limited. So much so, as a matter of fact, that some have gone so far as to say that only five consonantal phonemes (Six if we include, as Alba does, the dental fricative /θ/, which continues to be used in parts of Spain)—/D/, /s/, /n/, /l/, and /R/—can occupy this position (Alba 1998, Núñez Cedeño and Morales-Front 1999)."
Much the allophony is needles in any phonology article. that's a given in any language. Otherwise, this 'd be titled "spanish phonetics". Yoandri Dominguez Garcia 11:13, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
I noticed that syllable- or word-final dropping of /s/ in Spanish-speaking Latin America, Iberian Peninsula, and Africa (Canary Islands) are prevalent, along with YouTube clips on so-called "how to speak Spanish like a native". And there is also word-final dropping of /ɾ/ in some speeches. These days, I noticed that this information is well-expressed in many Wikipedia articles pertaining to Spanish dialects. I think all of theses should be addressed in a new separate article. I'm not a Spanish speaker myself, so I'm requesting this. Thank you. -- Komitsuki ( talk) 10:40, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
I've noticed that when /s/ is followed by /r/, speakers insert a velar stop in between the two sounds. For example <tienes razón> /ˌtje.nes.raˈson/ is pronounced [ˌtje̞.nes.g̥raˈson] and <ruidos raros> /ˌrwi.ðosˈra.ɾos/ is pronounced [ˌrwi.ðosˈkra.ɾos]. I am, by no means, an expert Spanish and linguistics, so I was wondering if someone could explain this to me, and if I'm not just hearing things, then I could add it to the article. User.name.here ( talk) 21:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
The voiced bilabial approximant and the voiced labio-velar approximant are certainly very similar sounds. They could easily merge and they are in fact allophones of each other in some languages, e.g. Flemish Dutch. Regarding Spanish, I also think that the functional load of the distinction is very low. The only minimal pairs I can think of right now would be words with initial hu- + vowel, but these are pronounced /ɡw-/ in some accents. So at least for these latter accents, is the distinction relevant at all? (I'm not an expert on Spanish, I'm just wondering.) 90.186.72.23 ( talk) 14:24, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Why would the first vowel in "madre(s)" would change in plural if there is no change in its surroundings? It doesn't make sense.
-- 200.57.197.151 ( talk) 16:08, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
In section "Realization of /s/" the notation [s̄] is used several times to represent a voiceless apico-dental grooved frivative. Though ⟨s̄⟩ is characterized as an "ad hoc symbol" I believe this is an unfortunate choice because in IPA, the macron above a segmental symbol is used for a different purpose: It denotes a mid level tone. (This is not the place to discuss whether voiceless sounds can carry tone.) As there is no single IPA diacritic to turn a dental slit fricative [θ] into a grooved one, the notation [s̺̪] or simply [s̪] with the diacritics for (apical and) dental seem to be the appropriate IPA notations. Both ⟨s̺̪⟩ and ⟨s̪⟩ display fine in my browser, but this is certainly not a requirement as long as the symbols are the correct ones. — Also note that slit [θ] and grooved [s̺̪]/[s̪] don't seem to contrast in any Spanish dialect ("It occurs only in dialects with ceceo."), and that the IPA symbol ⟨θ⟩ doesn't necessarily denote a slit fricative, but is defined as any pulmonic dental fricative, so we might as well use ⟨θ⟩ throughout and explain the occurrence of two phones in words. Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 09:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm not saying that my (reverted) version of the phonemic transcription in the text is the only possible one. But user:Nardog's one is untenable. Syllabification, a key phonological feature, is shattered with things such as fuˈeɾte. We could write /'fueɾ.te/ or perhaps /'fweɾ.te/, but certailnly not /fuˈeɾte/. Even worse is the fact that apparently the aforementioned user thinks that disyllabic words always have phonological stress, and that monosyllabic words never have it. This simply reflects ignorance about the Spanish language. Lexical stress and syntactic stress diverge only in set phrases. I'm not going to revert for the moment, but the section as it stands now is simply wrong. -- Jotamar ( talk) 14:31, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
"... though that syllable may be realized weak due to sentence stress": I see it differently, both for Spanish and English, and I guess for any language with lexical stress. Some words are intrinsically unstressed, and some words can be stressed or unstressed depending on their function. For instance, the is always unstressed while this is always stressed; compare the intonation pattern of the book and this book; that is stressed as a demonstrative but unstressed as a relative, etc. -- Jotamar ( talk) 06:33, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Some words are intrinsically unstressed, and some words can be stressed or unstressed depending on their function. [...] intonation pattern [...] as a relative, etc.My understanding is that the topic of this discussion is whether certain syllables are stressed (word/lexical stress), not whether certain words are (i.e. sentence/prosodic stress). Or are you suggesting we should mark sentence stress, and maybe intonemes, in our phonemic transcription? And do so on the same level and in the same way as we mark lexical stress? — Remember this is supposed to be an emic transcription. Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 10:53, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Where in Spain do they pronounce ‹ch› like /ts/? I've heard this several times, but I have never found mention of it anywhere. I actually quite like it because it makes the system more symmetric :) For examples, listen here (e.g. "escuché" at ca. 10 seconds, "luchan" at the very end). 178.7.217.119 ( talk) 14:27, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
How does someone pronounce this correctly? Is it like D and R (English) pronounced at the same time? I hear through Wiktionary sound files that it's something like between a Z, R, and D. 61.247.7.157 ( talk) 13:46, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
I added the text "Morphologically, a word-final rhotic always corresponds to the tapped [ɾ] in related words" to the section about rhotics on this article. This is accurate for the entire lexicon of almost the entirety of the Spanish-speaking world, however, there is one present-day exception, and there may have been some historical exceptions which as far as I know are unattested.
The present-day exception consists of demonyms used in the Roncal Valley, an area with a population of little more than 1000 people where a Basque dialect used to be spoken. These demonyms take the form -ar in the masculine singular, -arra/-arres in the feminine and plural.
The historical exceptions would've been some words ending in -rre, where the final -e was supposedly dropped and later restored. My source for this is Hualde's "Quasi-Phonemic Contrasts in Spanish" which quotes Penny's "A History of the Spanish Language" as saying an alternation "probably once existed between singular tor and plural torres".
I feel like these exceptions are so marginal that, if mentioned on some general article about the Spanish language, they should be mentioned one about its history or something, and not this page or even the one about dialectal differences, but I'm looking for feedback. Erinius ( talk) 05:22, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Not using the most precise symbols is misleading. Right now I am teaching a class and this article, as it is now, cannot be used as my students get confused and I had to tell them that the "correct" vowel table is in the Spanish article. That solved their confusion.
In the Spanish Wikipedia article they use ä, e̞ and o̞. But here, my students read a, e and o, which ARE NOT the same sounds. Despite the fact the correct wikilinks are being used in this article for all the vowels, the symbols used are not the required ones and, unless they follow the links, they won't easily realize the difference. George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 23:42, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
I find the pronunciation of the so-called "rising" diphthongs described everywhere clearly wrong. It does not correspond to the actual pronunciation - am I the only one to notice this?
"ie" does not sound like [je] (which is the same, only differently rendered, as [i̯e]), but in my opinion like [ie̯]. Just compare the undeniably different pronunciation of Spanish "pie" (foot) versus French "pied"! In French the diphthong is clearly rising, the "i" clearly unsyllabic and hardly perceptible as an "i"-**vowel** anymore - it is different in Spanish, where it seems to be even more accented than the "e".
Also, please listen when a Spaniard is about to utter "Shit!", it sounds like "miiier" and not like "mjeeer". You hear something similar with "miércoles", "tiempo", etc.
The same is true for "ue". It never ever sounds like a [u̯e], but instead like a [ue̯].
My position is also underlined and confirmed by "hasta luego", where the "luego" comes across more like a ['lʊə̯ɣo], at least when (as is so often the case) spoken very quickly!
And besides:
"Luis": That sounds like [lujs], and "muy" like [muj].
Here, too, the "u" is undoubtedly more prominent - so much for "rising diphthong"!
At the "forvo" website there are many spoken examples; very few of the speakers here offer evidence for the claimed rising diphthongs, quite the contrary.
MWV, Saarbrücken
94.219.186.110 (
talk)
00:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
I reverted [des.w̝eˈsaɾ] back to [dez.w̝eˈsaɾ]. The point of citing deshuesar (as a minimal pair with desuello) is that the [w] of hueso can alternate with [ɣʷ], a voiced consonant, and that /s/ before a voiced consonant is syllablle-final and realized as a voiced [z]. Kotabatubara ( talk) 15:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
There are a lot more Spanish speakers in Latin America than in Spain; I believe Mexico is the most populous Spanish-speaking country. 167.206.19.130 ( talk) 14:08, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
I just noticed that the edit I made in regards to this is related to a reverted previous edit I made in September. I find it unclear to describe the use of Spanish /e/, /o/ and /ie/, /ue/ as " similar to the distinction between the close /e, o/ and the open /ɛ, ɔ/" of other Romance languages: the connection is historical (the vowels /ɛ, ɔ/ developed by sound change into Spanish diphthongs) but the current phonetic outcome of those sound changes is not especially similar phonetically to /ɛ, ɔ/. However, I see that my previous wording was described as "an utterly wrong sweeping statement" in this January revision. While the correspondence is not perfect, due to separate sound changes in separate languages, I don't understand exactly why that makes it preferable to use the wording "similar to" instead of "correspond to". @ Sol505000 are there alternative wordings that would address my concern while avoiding the inaccuracy that you found with my wording? Urszag ( talk) 16:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
regarding Spanish phonology: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia
@ Nardog, the words from Listado de lemas que contienen «dl» | Diccionario de la lengua española | RAE - ASALE can be either /dl/ or /d.l/, just as intervocalic /tl/ can be /t.l/. this is also noticeable in foreign words or names like sandler or chandler where sometimes it's /d.l/ and other times it's /dl/ Brawlio ( talk) 05:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Hi @ Brawlio, I appreciate your contribution regarding the occurrence of /ʎ, ɲ/ after other consonants. However, I think we'll both agree that the article shouldn't be left in this state, so let's discuss what the best end state for the article would be. Do you think nothing of this kind should be mentioned, or do you think the current statements are indefensibly broad but have some kernel of truth to them?
It's obvious that these consonants are not strictly prohibited in that position, but I wonder if you would concede that they are at least uncommon, or not found in native vocabulary (other than compound/prefixed words)? huaiño, aclla, lliclla are borrowings from Quechua: I assume that Baker 2004 intended to exclude words of this type. As a thesis, the paper by Baker is not a top-rate source, so I'd be fine with removing it, but I think Morales-Front 2018 deserves some weight as an academic source, although its coverage of this topic is brief and not very clear (All I found to go on was the statement that "[ɾ] and [ɲ] are restricted word-initially"). Urszag ( talk) 07:00, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
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Perhaps we should include the fact that some native speakers, perhaps in an attempt to be "educated", pronounce both the b and the v in Spanish as a voiced labiodental fricative (English v). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.246.153.217 ( talk) 04:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, can someone add a trapezium to the vowel diagram, please? Thanks. -- Kjoon lee 02:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Bowen & Stockwell (1955) say (p 237) "In normal transition, two unstressed vowels are [v̆v]" with the first being shorter than the second and gives the following examples.
Does that mean that Martínez-Celdrán et al (2003) are incorrect in transcribing maestro as [mae̯stɾo]? Bowen & Stockwell also seem to transcribe /iw/ and /uj/ where Martínez-Celdrán et al as well as Sparkman (1943) and Harris (1969) have transcribed or implied /ju/ and /wi/ respectively. Sparkman also cites Navarro Tomás (p 64) in pointing that ui is [uj] northern Spain (meaning it is [wi] elsewhere).
I'm not really sure what sort of generalization to make/accept in regards to the process of Spanish diphthongization. Any Thoughts? — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 09:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
It has occurred to me that the recent series of reversions and counterreversions might seem like an edit war between two uncompromising editors. If it were simply an issue of sources, I would be willing to mark certain statements with {{ fact}}. However, the anon editor has shown on this page and others to be deliberately dishonest in attributing sources. Here are some examples:
This false attribution is enough for me to do blind reverts and to not trust any anon editor who behaves like the series of IP addresses who have been adding and re-adding these and other edits. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Since when this is necessary to know:
| opaco || /oˈpako/ || 'opaque' || opacidad || /opaθiˈdad/ || 'opacity' |-
| sueco || /ˈsweko/ || 'Swedish' || suecia || /ˈsweθja/ || 'Sweden' |-
| belga || /ˈbelga/ || ' Belgium' || bélgico || /ˈbelxiko/ || 'Belgian' |-
| análogo || /aˈnalogo/ || 'analogous' || analogía || /analoˈxia/ || 'analogy' |}
Even, that Spanish is wrong; belga is Belgian and Bélgica is Belgium.
I see very uncompleted this article. Spanish has got a lot of allophones, which should be included in parenthese on the Spanish sounds chart. They are real sounds, although they are not distinguishable, they are articulated by the Spanish speakers. It is unfair how other languages as German, French, etc. specify loan sounds from other languages on their phonology articles, and you see such a poor information about the Spanish language. 84.120.160.122 ( talk) 17:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I suggest to modify the Spanish consonant table.
As it is now, the article looks a bit disorganised. If this article is about an in-depth explanation about the Spanish phonology, it should include all/or most allophones. JAuMeh** ( talk) 16:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Per this article, the voiced stops in club de fútbol are all frics. Are they really? Also, I would expect some assimilation in fútbol, with the tb maybe [db]. kwami ( talk) 10:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Many other articles of phonology add them, and these sounds are articulated by the Spanish speakers.
Spanish is a global language, it has got several major dialects juts as GA, RP, AE, etc. In the English phonology article it is well explained in different charts the variation of the vowels and diphthongs from dialect to dialect. In Spanish occurs a lot of alternation in the pronunciation from the major dialects to the major dialects (mainly consonant changes, but also vowels openings, and vowels nasalitasion, which is common in Southern Spain, Caribbean, Venezuela, Argentina... ) mainly the pronunciation of "s", which could be articulated in many ways (/h/, /s/, /silent with vowel opening/). In Spain the zones that drop "s" are Andalusia, Murcia, Extremadura, South Castile-La Mancha, South Valencian Community, the Canary Islands, Ceuta, and Melilla. In South America this is common as well in Venezuela, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Caribbean coast of Colombia, Panama, Chile, and Argentina. This should be highlighted on the article. It is remarkable that here it is added a sound /θ/ which is only articulated by less than 30 millions of people of all the speakers of Spanish, and it forgets about the /ʒ/ articulation of ll/y which is articulated by more people than articulates /θ/. Argentinians, Uruguayans and Paraguayans cannot see their sound there represented? It is as fear /θ/ as /ʒ/. And Spanish from northern Spain is a main dialect as well, as Argentinian-Paraguayan-Uruguayan.
The charts could be based in "the innovative pronunciation of Spanish" (Southern Spain, the Canary Islands, Venezuelan, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican Republica, Panama, Argentina), and "the conservative pronunciation of Spanish" (Northern Spanish dialect, Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia...). And a better way would be getting based on this map, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Variedades_principales_del_espa%C3%B1ol.png
Americans and Australians would not be very happy in the case they do not represent their vowel pronunciation on the English phonological article, and it would only have the Receive Pronunciation, which is far less used than the GA. Just the same happens with Spanish. Spanish as well has got different patterns and ways of pronunciation based on this map, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Variedades_principales_del_espa%C3%B1ol.png
I would be glad to help the improvement of this article.
84.120.141.138 ( talk) 20:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
There are other pattern dialects aside the one shown here on this table of consonants. For those speakers from Andalusia, Canary Islands, Murcia, Venezuela, Cuba, Dominican Republic, blah, blah, blah... If these dialects drop "s" or turn it into /h/, won't exist other sounds, as /θ/, /z/, /ð/ (not /ð̞/).
Also lacks some explantion about vowels. Mid-vowels /e̞/ and /o̞/ might close and open to close-mid [e - o] and open-mid [ɛ - ɔ]. And it should be said that mid-vowels /e̞/ and /o̞/ are instable and could tend to be pronounced [e - o] and [ɛ - ɔ]. Many dictionaries differences following a rule of Tomás Navarro Tomás. [Spanish] Las vocales medias /e/ y /o/ presentan unos alófonos algo abiertos y cerrados, muy aproximados a [ɛ] y [o], en las siguientes posiciones:
En contacto con el sonido de doble erre ("rr") /r/, como en "perro", "torre", "remo", "roca". Cuando van precediendo al sonido /x/, como en "teja", "hoja". Cuando van formando parte de un diptongo decreciente, como en "peine", "boina". Además, el alófono abierto de /o/ se produce en toda sílaba que se encuentre trabada por consonante y el alófono abierto de /e/ aparece cuando se haya trabado por cualquier consonante que no sea /d/, /m/ y /n/: "pelma", "pesca", "pez", "costa", "olmo". El fonema /a/ presenta tres variedades alofónicas:
Una variedad palatal, cuando precede a consonantes palatales, como en "malla", "facha", "despacho". Otra variante velarizada se produce cuando precede a las vocales /o/, /u/ o a las consonantes /l/, /x/: "ahora", "pausa", "palma", "maja". Una variante media, que se realiza en los contornos no expresados en los párrafos anteriores: "caro", "compás", "sultán". 84.120.141.138 ( talk) 06:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The English phonology article adds /x/ on the consonant table in brackets, and with a number clarifies it. It says:
dental Dental Alveolar Post- alveolar2 Palatal Velar Glottal Nasal1 m n ŋ Plosive p b t d k ɡ Affricate tʃ dʒ Fricative f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ (x)3 h Approximant ɹ1, 2, 5 j w4 Lateral l1, 6
What that article says:
Labial Dental/ Alveolar Palato- alveolar Palatal Velar Uvular plain lab. Nasal m n ɲ ŋ1 Plosive p b t d k ɡ Fricative f v s z ʃ ʒ ʁ2 Approximant3 j4 ɥ w Lateral l (ʎ)4
Why is not fear to add real sounds to the Spanish consonant chart, whereas other languages add loanwords sounds and almost non-existent sounds as /ʎ/ (I have never EVER heard this sound in French!!)and /ŋ/ in French and /x/ in English.
84.120.141.138 ( talk) 07:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
http://liceu.uab.cat/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/fonetica_espanol_segmental.html#fonemas_esp
http://revistas.ucm.es/fll/0212999x/articulos/RFRM9090110075A.PDF
Spanish main dialects, and Spanish spoken in the media: http://www.colmex.mx/academicos/cell/ravila/docs/Pronunciacion.pdf
Would you please check these links? These ones contain a lot of information about the Spanish phonology and phonetics:
http://liceu.uab.cat/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/variacion_fonetica_espanol.html
http://liceu.uab.cat/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/IPA_vow_sp.html
http://liceu.uab.cat/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/fonetica_espanol_segmental.html#fonemas_esp
The sentence "Las estrellas parecen espejos" and "los dos" can be pronounced
Bolivian Spanish: http://cvc.cervantes.es/obref/aih/pdf/06/aih_06_1_090.pdf
(/ʃ/) could be added as well, there are common English loan words, plus other, which are pronounced with /ʃ/ as show, fashion, flash, squash... 84.120.141.138 ( talk) 21:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Another thing, this article says: Caribbean dialects, as well as those of Panama and of the Atlantic coast off Colombia, exhibit a form of simplification of coda consonants. It should be added, this feature is also done in Andalusia, Murcia, Extremadura, South Castile-La Mancha, Canary Islands, and also in Venezuela. ven pronounced /bẽ/. However Andalusian phonology is more complex and they drop more sounds or mutate them.
Final /d/ or more real [ð̞], is common to be silent in most of the Spanish speaking countries. Nowadays it is dropped most of the times, Madrid or usted are correctly pronounced [ma'ð̞ri] and [us'te̞], and [ma'ð̞rið̞] and [us'te̞ð̞], other possible pronunciations are [ma'ð̞riθ] and [us'te̞θ], and [ma'ð̞rit] and [us'te̞t]. < http://culturitalia.uibk.ac.at/hispanoteca/Foro-preguntas/ARCHIVO-Foro/d%20final%20de%20palabra.htm
It is not fear the point of writing phonology articles, does it follows the same pattern in all of them? As, as far I can see it says unlogical things, as in the French one including /ʎ/ and the English one including /x/ a sound only pronounced in Scotland. So, in Spanish can we include the sounds in Andalusia, which forms the Kingdom of Spain as much as Scotland forms the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I don't see logic on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.199.233 ( talk) 16:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
84.120.141.138 ( talk) 06:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
/ʰ/, /ʒ/, /ŋ/, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.199.233 ( talk) 22:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Am I correct in understanding that Ávila is saying (page 10) that varieties that have /θ/ don’t have /ʃ/ and vice versa? — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is not *useful* for my purpose of quickly finding a summary with dialect (how about 2 dialects ??) differentiation of allophones. It appears to lack simple tables or lists of simple examples for consonant sounds. Since I am trying to learn these I am not able to write the article; those who can - please do. I can go read Martínez-Celdrán for in-depth phonemics. Thanks ! Netrapt ( talk) 03:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I have read through this, and thing like nasal vowels,/θ/,[z],[v],[χ], are purely dialectal and should be noted as such. Also, germination occurs in phrases such as "son nuevos" in some dialects, instead of [ˈsõ̞ ˈnwe̞βo̞s]. Does any one else see this problem? Is this not Spanish phonology and not purely mainstream European Spanish phonology? ₭øμt̪ũ ( talk) 19:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
As in the English phonology article, it is so well explained the vowel alternation among American English (GA), British English (RP), Australian English... In Spanish occurs alternation in consonants, from Mexico to Argentina, and from Castile to Andalusia and the Spanish speaking countries in the Caribbean. Why can I only see the pattern from Castile, and not the most spoken pattern as the Mexico one? Or just any other pattern than this one. Mexican Spanish tends to drop vowels, whereas other dialects tend to drop consonants and open vowels, etc.
Moreover [z] and [v] are sounds from Mexican Spanish, inland Colombian Spanish, in addition to Castilian Spanish. But these sounds are not pronounced in the Spanish Caribbean dialects, Southern Spain and the Canary Islands, most of Argentina and Uruguay.
Mexican Spanish, tends to drop vowels and pronounce all the consonants, this dialect does not drop /s/, /x/... They use [z], [v] but not /θ/~[ð] (it is not the same than [ð̞])... In fact, "durazno" is pronounced [du'ɾazno̞]. Yes the "z" is [z]. "Asno" is pronounced as ['azno̞]. In Castilian (Northern and Central Spain), "durazno" would be pronounced [du'ɾaðno̞] and "asno" the same than in Mexico, ['azno̞]. In Andalusian, and the rest of the s-dropping dialects could be, ['ahno], ['anno] and ['æ̞no] In Mexican Spanish they reduce vowels, to complete omission. Trastos [tɾasts]. 86.177.205.131 ( talk) 14:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
What sub-dialect of Mexican Spanish are you referring to? I have never heard [v] in it, and I thought it was nonexistent in any dialect of Spanish( except for uneducated Spanish in the U.S.) But I have heard of the voicing of s before a nasal( from my mothers side), but its not existent in all. ₭øμt̪ũ 23:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
/v/ doesn't exist in Spanish, only by some educated and bilingual people who might use it in Spanish; the sound /v/ exists in Alicante, Valencia, Castellón and the Balearic Islands by bilingual speakers. Most people who speak catalan/valencian in these places pronounce /v/ in Spanish. There are also educated Spanish speakers from Spain and South America who pronounce /v/ and not /b/, however this is not standard as Spanish lacks of this sound.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialecto_churro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balearic#See_also
What I was talking about is [v], as "an allophone of /f/", (do not get confused with /v/, the phoneme). [v] or a voiced /f/, exists in Spanish, the /f/ as /s/, needs to be in contact with a voiced consonant to be pronounced as [v] and [z]. ['davne̞] Dafne, [av'ɣ˕ano̞] afgano; asno ['azno]. These sounds are allophones. I've listened to so many singers who use /v/ all the time without pronouncing it as /b/. And I have met very educated South Americans, as Venezuelans, and Chilians who pronounce "v" as /v/ and not /b/. The s-voicing [z] doesn't exist in the dialects that drop consonants and mainly "s" (so obvious). So, if your dialect doesn't drop consonants and you pronounce /s/ you might also pronounce [z].
Another thing, in Spain the English word "pub" is pronounced /paf/, yes with an /f/. But, "club" is pronounced /klub/. So, in Spain the sentence "el pub de Marta" would be pronounced [e̞l pav ð̞e̞ 'maɾta] It is also remarkable the pronunciation of the word "ovni", which i've heard so many times ['o̞vni], yes with [v]. And also, but much less ['o̞β̞ni].
This is a never ending story. The Spanish phonology article doesn't show the main differences amongst the main Spanish dialects as the English one does. You can see on the English phonology article how the British pronounce, and also how do the Americans and the Australians. Americans use an r-coloured vowel whereas British drops "r"... Well very similar in Spanish, but the letter is not "r" but "s". So, what about the Spanish phonology article?!?! An Andalusian would pronounce different from a Castilian as an America would from a British... And what about the Mexican, Argentinian. This article continues to be so poor and deficient. You include on the English phonology article the /x/ for a sound it only appears in Scotland. Is it the most spoken English accent in the world? I don't get why you can say on the English phonology article /x/ exists for only a word "loch" where most of the speakers pronounce it with /k/ at the end. And you cannot say real information about the main Spanish dialects on this article.
The English phonology article includes sounds from the Scottish English /x/, and the Spanish one doesn't even include sounds from South America, or even allophones properly so that people can see the REAL pronunciation because you don't allow it, even though there are loads of sources with more information to put on here. The French phonology article includes /ʎ/ (dialectal) and /ŋ/ (loan from English)...
Anyway, this is Wikipedia :)
92.4.203.3 ( talk) 01:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
"Consonants in parentheses are phonemes of Standard Spanish but absent in many dialects, especially those in Latin America".
The /ʎ/ sound does exist in Latin America, it is common in Paraguay, Bolivia and some parts of Peru and Colombia. So that sentence is wrong. 149.254.58.41 ( talk) 00:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I think it should be better said, "Consonants in parentheses are phonemes of Standard Spanish but absent in many dialects". without referring to Latin America. In Spain itself there are zones where /ʎ/ and /θ/ don't exist; as the Canary Islands, many zones of Andalusia, etc. There are zones in Spain where /θ/ doesn't exist but exists /ʎ/, this occurs in the South of Alicante, some parts of Galicia. Also, there are zones where /ʎ/ doesn't exist but /θ/ exists, many parts of Andalusia. Another thing is that /ʎ/ doesn't exist in some metropolitan areas of Spain. It exists though in the second largest city of Spain, Barcelona. 92.3.132.146 ( talk) 17:53, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, only /θ/ exists in Spain, and I think it does in Equatorial Guinea as well, I don't know that much about it. However /ʎ/ is still common in few countries of South America, mainly in Bolivia and Paraguay. So, you can say that sentence if you refer to /θ/. 92.3.132.146 ( talk) 19:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I think that /w/ and /j/ (written hi- and hu- plus vowel)are phonemes, for example:
Huevo (egg) /weβ̞o/
Hielo (ice) /jelo/
Maybe in most dialects hie- and ye- are homophones, but in Argentinean Spanish and many others, there is s distinction between hie- and ye-, for example:
Hielo (ice) is pronounced /jelo/
and Yelo is pronounced /ʃelo/ —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tuuagso (
talk •
contribs)
19:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
For a better view, and for contrasting with the mid-close vowels, /e/ and /o/, and the mid-open vowels, /ɛ/ and /ɔ/. The Spanish vowels "e" and "o" are real mid vowels, it should be added for people to see the Spanish vowels are somehow higher than /e/ and somehow lower than /ɛ/. Same for "o". 86.177.200.58 ( talk) 01:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I quote from above:
There is not just one Standard Spanish. Every country has its Standard Spanish, and this article focuses on Standard Spanish from Spain. Not even Real Academia Española is so ethnocentric.
167.107.191.217 ( talk) 17:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
It would be nice to have a link to any Spanish dictionary which has actual support to show the user the Spanish phonology in IPA. Unfortunately I am not aware of such a dictionary. All dictionaries I know (rae.es, EUDict, SpanishDict) do not have this. SpanishDict actually does but only a (subjective) non-IPA version e.g. denunciar [day-noon-the-ar’]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobiaswunner ( talk • contribs) 15:47, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
'Gran diccionario español-portugués' (Espasa) has IPA-indicated pronunciation of Spanish. It can be found online with free of charge:
Gran diccionario español-portugués (Espasa) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Linda Martens (
talk •
contribs)
20:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
What is dropped in [beˈnian]? -- Error ( talk) 21:07, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Under "Phonetic notes", at the end of the third paragraph, the phonemic renditions of "ley" and "leyes" unfortunately look like lowercase versions of "LEL" and "LELES". Wiki's sans-serif font makes it impossible to distinguish between the uppercase vowel "I" and lowercase "L". The footnoted apology seems like an inadequate response to the problem. Can Wikipedia access a serifed font? What other solutions are available? Kotabatubara ( talk) 20:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
So, I was talking with a friend about Spanish, and I decided to come here in search of an explanation for the epenthetic /e/ in words like estados or Esteban. Instead of information that tells us 'why' Spanish speakers decided to insert an /e/ in front of otherwise word-initial /s/, I find this: "Because of these phonotactic constraints, an epenthetic /e/ is inserted before word-initial cluster beginning with /s/ (e.g. escribir 'to write') but not word-internally (transcribir 'to transcribe'),[66] thereby moving the initial /s/ to a separate syllable." That is not an explanation, it's a reification of the data couched in terms of a phonological analysis. If one unpacks the statement, what we're saying is "Spanish speakers insert /e/ in front of word-initial /s/," but that is not an explanation that I can imagine native Spanish speakers assenting to. The History of Spanish article has nothing really to say about it, and as my linguistic interests lie in other areas I'm not exactly the person to deal with it. It definitely is something that needs fixing. Duke Atreides ( talk) 21:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) There was a Romance-wide change that occurred in Proto-Romance and added short /i/ onto the beginning of all clusters of /s/+consonant. The /i/ was lowered to mid-high /e/ in Western Romance (the ancestors of Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese) by the standard Western Romance vowel changes. This /e/ was later deleted in Italian; this is why Italian now has a prefix s- meaning "un", from Latin ex- (Romance es-). Now why was this the case? Why do any historical changes occur, and why do they occur in some places but not others? There aren't really good answers for this. There are general tendencies (e.g. bilabial /ɸ/ tends to become labiodental /f/ because the latter is a lot more prominent) but no way to predict when certain changes happen. Why did Old French have an extremely heavy stress accent but now French has basically no accent at all? Why did Middle French delete almost all final consonants but now French heavily favors closed consonant-final monosyllables? Why have vowels been so stable but consonants so unstable in the last 2000 years or so of Spanish, and why is it precisely the opposite in English? Benwing ( talk) 07:53, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
There used to be a very detailed description of allophones etc. in this article. Where is it?-- 90.179.235.249 ( talk) 18:10, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
While the actual phonology is an interesting topic, there is nothing on this page that would give someone the basics. Spanish pronunciation links here, but when the average person searches for that, they just want to know how to pronounce a word. A phonemically correct pronunciation is simple to explain, and can be sourced from nearly any Spanish/English dictionary.
While Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus the current content is suitable, it is a general purpose encyclopedia. If at all possible, each article needs to be made where a layman can get a basic idea of the subject. This appears to be written for phonologists.
It won't take much: just that basic list of the closest English representations of the Spanish phonemes. While there are some esoteric dialects of English, it is fairly simple to get one that works for 90% of speakers. And the remaining 10% with a different dialect usually at least know about the dialect of the other 90%, so they would also be helped.
Finally, I could see this being part of the introduction, or a separate article. Pronunciation and phonology are not typically used to mean the same thing, so a basic article at Spanish pronunciation that links to this one for more information would be useful.
Then again, it could pretty much be a table, like the one used in Wikipedia:IPA for Spanish. Heck, if that were a proper encyclopedia article, I'd just make Spanish pronunciation redirect there, since that's what the average person will want to know. — trlkly 17:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Done Benwing ( talk) 01:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
This article uses non-IPA pronunciation symbols, namely [s̠ s̄ θ̦ θṣ]. It would be nice if these were corrected to proper IPA symbols. -- mach ᵗᵃˡᵏ👍 06:03, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
I see now that Martinez-Celdran et al are claiming that trilled r occurs syllable-finally. Maybe, possibly, in highly exaggerated formal speech like you might hear from radio announcers, but hardly in normal circumstances. Most sources claim that trilled r only occurs initially, when written <rr> or after /l/, /n/ and /s/ (and in these latter circumstances it's somewhat questionable; citing from memory, one source said that a normal trilled r is something like 3-5 taps while after /l/, /n/, /s/ it's only 1-2 taps; also, the Spanish-Portuguese dictionary link that someone else gave has a tap in Israel -- as well as, of course, syllable-finally in words such as carta and amor).
I'll have to go see what Martinez-Celdran et al actually say, but if they don't qualify what they say about r, I'd take a great deal else of what they say with a lot of salt as well. Benwing ( talk) 03:27, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't think we need a separate Spanish pronunciation article that is, in essence, a content fork that repeats WP:IPA for Spanish and duplicates the format that this article was in before the large bulky tables were converted into actual prose. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 21:02, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
The article currently states: A common pronunciation of /f/ in nonstandard speech is the voiceless bilabial fricative [ɸ], so that fuera is pronounced [ˈɸweɾa] rather than [ˈfweɾa]. Are [f] and [ɸ] in free variation or is there a condition?
The example currently used could be taken as indicating that [ɸ] occurs only before bilabial constrictions such as [w], which would make a lot of sense phonetically. (Or perhaps [ɸ] was historically an allophone of */h/ before liquids and glides, and its retention in this position is an archaism, while /f/ is a later reintroduction from Latin, with which [ɸ] was subsequently merged? Just wild speculation.)
Moreover, I've noticed that Voiceless bilabial fricative#Occurrence lists an additional source of this sound, namely as an allophone of /b/ after [h] as an allophone of /s/, not only the devoicing of [β̞] (or the phoneme /b/) in syllabic coda position. Perhaps this might also merit mention? -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 18:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
"Even in formal speech, /m/ is disallowed in word-final position, so a word such as Islam is regularly rendered as /isˈlan/."
"Slim is pronounced /es'lim/". These two statements conflict. Should the article explain? TomS TDotO ( talk) 11:35, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
The article says: The phoneme /ʃ/ only occurs in loanwords, in many dialects there is a tendency to substitute it for /tʃ/ or /s/.
This is a comma splice and that makes the meaning unclear. Does this mean that the dialects use /tʃ/ or /s/ instead of /ʃ/ (the erroneous sense of "substitute" as a synonym for "replace"), or /ʃ/ instead of /tʃ/ or /s/ (the correct meaning of "substitute")? The comment about loanwords would suggest it is the former, but the second part of the sentence suggests it is the latter. Using "replace ... with ..." or "use ... instead of ..." (and resolving the comma splice) would make the meaning clearer. — 146.179.8.172 ( talk) 14:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
There is an example given: Examples of maximal codas: instalar /ins.taˈlar/, perspectiva /pers.pekˈti.ba/
I was under the assumption that Spanish can't have s in syllable final position unless there is a vowel before it. For example, you have goles "goals" but you don't have *gols. Shouldn't it be per.spek.ti.ba? 190.237.91.214 ( talk) 17:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Not mentioned in this article, nor on its own elsewhere, is the phenomenon of enlace. Is this an oversight or has it been determined that this doesn't exist in the wikiworld? 71.87.23.22 ( talk) 16:12, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello. I've noticed that more often than not, word-initial /b/ is realized as an approximant [ β̞, rather than a plosive [ b. The environment I'm talking about is word-initial after a pause (as in vamos or Victoria), not word-initial immediately after a word ending with a vowel. I've noticed that in Mexican and Argentinian accents, but it's probably more widespread than that. Does anyone have a source to back that up? Peter238 ( talk) 22:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I've seen you (Aeusoes1) have reverted my editions. Does Saporta (1956) mention nasals are fully omitted in this case? IMO no one in Standard Castilian omits /n/, not even when there are two /nn/. What can you say about this? Regards —
Jɑuмe (
dis-me)
08:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Does the original transcription from the source you added include diacritics on the vowels? If it doesn't, I understand [ⁿ] is also omitted. Or perhaps there's a typo mistake.—
Jɑuмe (
dis-me)
08:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Also, does Saporta include a full nasal/nasalized vowel? I think [õ] (like in Portuguese bom), instead of [õN], is totally wrong and unacceptable in the Standard. Phonetic nasalisation can occur in Spanish but it's not as exaggerated as in Portuguese, this transcription ([sõ(.n)]) suggests son is pronounced like bom —
Jɑuмe (
dis-me)
08:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
I think we should be consistent with the treatment of nasals in Standard Castilian, if you ignore /n/ you're being ambiguous and incorrect among some groups. —
Jɑuмe (
dis-me)
09:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Word | IPA | Gloss |
---|---|---|
cinto | [sĩⁿtʊ] | 'belt' |
sento | [sẽⁿtʊ] | 'I sit' |
santo | [sɐ̃ⁿtʊ] | 'saint' |
sondo | [sõⁿdʊ] | 'I probe' |
sunto | [sũⁿtʊ] | 'summed up' |
This is not an issue of English perspective/non-English perspective. I don't think you're reading my messages carefully. I'm talking about the official IPA usage of the [ⁿ] sign, which signifies exclusively nasal release, which applies only to stop consonants. The answer to "why is this not IPA" (or rather "why is this not official IPA") has already been given - re-read my messages, nasal release and nasalization. I'm not saying using [ⁿ] for things other than nasal release is "wrong" or "bad", I'm saying it's not a part of the official IPA. I don't care how people use that sign. Peter238 ( talk) 12:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi I've just noticed a user (Peter238) has unanimously deleted all the diacritics without previous notice stating that they're useless, I would like to know why this has been decided? IMO I don't think this is accurate and right to do without discussion, especially because using diacritics is not a mistake — Jɑuмe ( dis-me) 04:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Interesting link, thanks, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say by "you could display [e, o] only if they were close mid". Llisterri states that Spanish /e, o/ have two allophones: close-mid [e, o] and open-mid (not mid) [e̞, o̞] (it's not a wrong transcription, but it's less ambiguous to write simply [ɛ, ɔ]). Peter238 ( talk) 18:08, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
I was comparing the consonant tables from the phonology articles of Spanish, English and Japanese and noticed they have different headers for the same sounds, which I find confusing. For instance, /p/ is "Labial Stop" here, "Bilabial Stop" in English phonology, and "Bilabial Plosive" in Japanese phonology. Is there any reason why the categories' names aren't standardized? (I just got started learning IPA, sorry if I'm missing something) - Aekorus ( talk) 19:25, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
In the Consonants section, the table for phonemes has a Continuants row. All of the sounds in that row are fricatives. There are no approximants. Why doesn't it just say Fricatives? Mechanic1c ( talk) 18:15, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello.
Any thoughts (or, even better, sources)? Mr KEBAB ( talk) 22:27, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I am a native speaker of Spanish from Argentina. Here the prevalent pronunciation of Spanish is that of the Rioplatense Spanish where you have the phoneme /ʃ/ for the sound realization of "ll-" or beginning-of-syllable "y-" and the corresponding allophone /ʒ/. Thus /ʃ/ is not an allophone of /ʎ/ itself, but a dialectal phoneme, as stated in the Spanish article for Spanish Phonology ( https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonolog%C3%ADa_del_espa%C3%B1ol#Sonidos_conson.C3.A1nticos ) where you can check the consideration of /ʃ/ as a variant phoneme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thetucu ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
I really liked how many sources were used in this article. Plus, it was very specific in that it described the various sounds and sound combinations in the Spanish language, but also had a huge list of notes and references discussing even more sound phrases and certain words and their pronunciations. I also found the use of visuals helpful as well. This made for a very interesting read, and describes Spanish phonology very thoroughly. -- Sakuragalaxxy ( talk) 08:51, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Anybody know what undertack means? Kortoso ( talk) 21:01, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
None of the so called 'falling diphthongs' are diphthongs, those are just sequences of a consonant (/j/ or /w/) and a vowel, and these can only be considered diphthongs if one does phonology based on orthography. There is no diphthong on English words like 'web' or 'yet' either, so I don't see why these are considered as such on this page.
On the other 'diphthongs' occurring in fast speech in words with sequences of /CeV, CoV, CaV/, these are semi-approximants as well (which aren't vowels either). When it comes to 'triphthongs', /wai/,/wei/ only have diphthongs after a consonant.
Real diphthongs could be added /ia/ in 'día', /io/ in 'navío' or 'tío', /ui/ in 'cocuy' (/koˈkui/), /ua/ in 'grúa' or 'púa', /uo/ in 'búho', /ao/ in 'caos'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.44.66.135 ( talk) 16:49, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Spanish has no magical capabilities of breaking the real phonetic behavior of consonants" but it sounds like you're ignoring the phonetic information I gave you and saying that there is some platonic ideal of [j]. If you're going to ignore my points and provide no sourcing to back up your claims about phonetics and phonology in general and Spanish specifically, there's not much point in discussing this. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:54, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
It is not a big deal for scientists to say: "The word XYZ has been used in a number of different ways. I'm using it here in sense A and not in sense B." Without such definitions scientific writing becomes ambiguous and immediately loses its scientific value.
We should also state in which sense the term diphthong is used here, and that it is not the sense that excludes the sounds of English you and we. Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 06:10, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
So, the article says there is no phonemic contrast between voiced and voiceless obstruents in the coda position, right? And voiceless obstruents become voiced before other voiced consonants. But what about in the word-final position before a pause? The article is vague about that. Do /t d/ and /θ/ merge in that position, too? I'm not a Spanish speaker myself and I'm in the Western Hemisphere anyway, so practically all the Spanish I hear locally has no /θ/ whatsoever (only /s/), but I find the topic of Spanish phonotactics as a whole rather fascinating. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 21:38, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm talking about what's mentioned in Spanish phonology#Obstruents. Earlier I repeated a detail from that section in another section, Spanish phonology#Phonotactics, but another editor reverted the edit. And this is symptomatic of the central problem—the information provided in the article does not seem clear enough. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 02:07, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
"When it comes to codas, however, the options are considerably more limited. So much so, as a matter of fact, that some have gone so far as to say that only five consonantal phonemes (Six if we include, as Alba does, the dental fricative /θ/, which continues to be used in parts of Spain)—/D/, /s/, /n/, /l/, and /R/—can occupy this position (Alba 1998, Núñez Cedeño and Morales-Front 1999)."
Much the allophony is needles in any phonology article. that's a given in any language. Otherwise, this 'd be titled "spanish phonetics". Yoandri Dominguez Garcia 11:13, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
I noticed that syllable- or word-final dropping of /s/ in Spanish-speaking Latin America, Iberian Peninsula, and Africa (Canary Islands) are prevalent, along with YouTube clips on so-called "how to speak Spanish like a native". And there is also word-final dropping of /ɾ/ in some speeches. These days, I noticed that this information is well-expressed in many Wikipedia articles pertaining to Spanish dialects. I think all of theses should be addressed in a new separate article. I'm not a Spanish speaker myself, so I'm requesting this. Thank you. -- Komitsuki ( talk) 10:40, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
I've noticed that when /s/ is followed by /r/, speakers insert a velar stop in between the two sounds. For example <tienes razón> /ˌtje.nes.raˈson/ is pronounced [ˌtje̞.nes.g̥raˈson] and <ruidos raros> /ˌrwi.ðosˈra.ɾos/ is pronounced [ˌrwi.ðosˈkra.ɾos]. I am, by no means, an expert Spanish and linguistics, so I was wondering if someone could explain this to me, and if I'm not just hearing things, then I could add it to the article. User.name.here ( talk) 21:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
The voiced bilabial approximant and the voiced labio-velar approximant are certainly very similar sounds. They could easily merge and they are in fact allophones of each other in some languages, e.g. Flemish Dutch. Regarding Spanish, I also think that the functional load of the distinction is very low. The only minimal pairs I can think of right now would be words with initial hu- + vowel, but these are pronounced /ɡw-/ in some accents. So at least for these latter accents, is the distinction relevant at all? (I'm not an expert on Spanish, I'm just wondering.) 90.186.72.23 ( talk) 14:24, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Why would the first vowel in "madre(s)" would change in plural if there is no change in its surroundings? It doesn't make sense.
-- 200.57.197.151 ( talk) 16:08, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
In section "Realization of /s/" the notation [s̄] is used several times to represent a voiceless apico-dental grooved frivative. Though ⟨s̄⟩ is characterized as an "ad hoc symbol" I believe this is an unfortunate choice because in IPA, the macron above a segmental symbol is used for a different purpose: It denotes a mid level tone. (This is not the place to discuss whether voiceless sounds can carry tone.) As there is no single IPA diacritic to turn a dental slit fricative [θ] into a grooved one, the notation [s̺̪] or simply [s̪] with the diacritics for (apical and) dental seem to be the appropriate IPA notations. Both ⟨s̺̪⟩ and ⟨s̪⟩ display fine in my browser, but this is certainly not a requirement as long as the symbols are the correct ones. — Also note that slit [θ] and grooved [s̺̪]/[s̪] don't seem to contrast in any Spanish dialect ("It occurs only in dialects with ceceo."), and that the IPA symbol ⟨θ⟩ doesn't necessarily denote a slit fricative, but is defined as any pulmonic dental fricative, so we might as well use ⟨θ⟩ throughout and explain the occurrence of two phones in words. Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 09:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm not saying that my (reverted) version of the phonemic transcription in the text is the only possible one. But user:Nardog's one is untenable. Syllabification, a key phonological feature, is shattered with things such as fuˈeɾte. We could write /'fueɾ.te/ or perhaps /'fweɾ.te/, but certailnly not /fuˈeɾte/. Even worse is the fact that apparently the aforementioned user thinks that disyllabic words always have phonological stress, and that monosyllabic words never have it. This simply reflects ignorance about the Spanish language. Lexical stress and syntactic stress diverge only in set phrases. I'm not going to revert for the moment, but the section as it stands now is simply wrong. -- Jotamar ( talk) 14:31, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
"... though that syllable may be realized weak due to sentence stress": I see it differently, both for Spanish and English, and I guess for any language with lexical stress. Some words are intrinsically unstressed, and some words can be stressed or unstressed depending on their function. For instance, the is always unstressed while this is always stressed; compare the intonation pattern of the book and this book; that is stressed as a demonstrative but unstressed as a relative, etc. -- Jotamar ( talk) 06:33, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Some words are intrinsically unstressed, and some words can be stressed or unstressed depending on their function. [...] intonation pattern [...] as a relative, etc.My understanding is that the topic of this discussion is whether certain syllables are stressed (word/lexical stress), not whether certain words are (i.e. sentence/prosodic stress). Or are you suggesting we should mark sentence stress, and maybe intonemes, in our phonemic transcription? And do so on the same level and in the same way as we mark lexical stress? — Remember this is supposed to be an emic transcription. Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 10:53, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Where in Spain do they pronounce ‹ch› like /ts/? I've heard this several times, but I have never found mention of it anywhere. I actually quite like it because it makes the system more symmetric :) For examples, listen here (e.g. "escuché" at ca. 10 seconds, "luchan" at the very end). 178.7.217.119 ( talk) 14:27, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
How does someone pronounce this correctly? Is it like D and R (English) pronounced at the same time? I hear through Wiktionary sound files that it's something like between a Z, R, and D. 61.247.7.157 ( talk) 13:46, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
I added the text "Morphologically, a word-final rhotic always corresponds to the tapped [ɾ] in related words" to the section about rhotics on this article. This is accurate for the entire lexicon of almost the entirety of the Spanish-speaking world, however, there is one present-day exception, and there may have been some historical exceptions which as far as I know are unattested.
The present-day exception consists of demonyms used in the Roncal Valley, an area with a population of little more than 1000 people where a Basque dialect used to be spoken. These demonyms take the form -ar in the masculine singular, -arra/-arres in the feminine and plural.
The historical exceptions would've been some words ending in -rre, where the final -e was supposedly dropped and later restored. My source for this is Hualde's "Quasi-Phonemic Contrasts in Spanish" which quotes Penny's "A History of the Spanish Language" as saying an alternation "probably once existed between singular tor and plural torres".
I feel like these exceptions are so marginal that, if mentioned on some general article about the Spanish language, they should be mentioned one about its history or something, and not this page or even the one about dialectal differences, but I'm looking for feedback. Erinius ( talk) 05:22, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Not using the most precise symbols is misleading. Right now I am teaching a class and this article, as it is now, cannot be used as my students get confused and I had to tell them that the "correct" vowel table is in the Spanish article. That solved their confusion.
In the Spanish Wikipedia article they use ä, e̞ and o̞. But here, my students read a, e and o, which ARE NOT the same sounds. Despite the fact the correct wikilinks are being used in this article for all the vowels, the symbols used are not the required ones and, unless they follow the links, they won't easily realize the difference. George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 23:42, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
I find the pronunciation of the so-called "rising" diphthongs described everywhere clearly wrong. It does not correspond to the actual pronunciation - am I the only one to notice this?
"ie" does not sound like [je] (which is the same, only differently rendered, as [i̯e]), but in my opinion like [ie̯]. Just compare the undeniably different pronunciation of Spanish "pie" (foot) versus French "pied"! In French the diphthong is clearly rising, the "i" clearly unsyllabic and hardly perceptible as an "i"-**vowel** anymore - it is different in Spanish, where it seems to be even more accented than the "e".
Also, please listen when a Spaniard is about to utter "Shit!", it sounds like "miiier" and not like "mjeeer". You hear something similar with "miércoles", "tiempo", etc.
The same is true for "ue". It never ever sounds like a [u̯e], but instead like a [ue̯].
My position is also underlined and confirmed by "hasta luego", where the "luego" comes across more like a ['lʊə̯ɣo], at least when (as is so often the case) spoken very quickly!
And besides:
"Luis": That sounds like [lujs], and "muy" like [muj].
Here, too, the "u" is undoubtedly more prominent - so much for "rising diphthong"!
At the "forvo" website there are many spoken examples; very few of the speakers here offer evidence for the claimed rising diphthongs, quite the contrary.
MWV, Saarbrücken
94.219.186.110 (
talk)
00:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
I reverted [des.w̝eˈsaɾ] back to [dez.w̝eˈsaɾ]. The point of citing deshuesar (as a minimal pair with desuello) is that the [w] of hueso can alternate with [ɣʷ], a voiced consonant, and that /s/ before a voiced consonant is syllablle-final and realized as a voiced [z]. Kotabatubara ( talk) 15:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
There are a lot more Spanish speakers in Latin America than in Spain; I believe Mexico is the most populous Spanish-speaking country. 167.206.19.130 ( talk) 14:08, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
I just noticed that the edit I made in regards to this is related to a reverted previous edit I made in September. I find it unclear to describe the use of Spanish /e/, /o/ and /ie/, /ue/ as " similar to the distinction between the close /e, o/ and the open /ɛ, ɔ/" of other Romance languages: the connection is historical (the vowels /ɛ, ɔ/ developed by sound change into Spanish diphthongs) but the current phonetic outcome of those sound changes is not especially similar phonetically to /ɛ, ɔ/. However, I see that my previous wording was described as "an utterly wrong sweeping statement" in this January revision. While the correspondence is not perfect, due to separate sound changes in separate languages, I don't understand exactly why that makes it preferable to use the wording "similar to" instead of "correspond to". @ Sol505000 are there alternative wordings that would address my concern while avoiding the inaccuracy that you found with my wording? Urszag ( talk) 16:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
regarding Spanish phonology: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia
@ Nardog, the words from Listado de lemas que contienen «dl» | Diccionario de la lengua española | RAE - ASALE can be either /dl/ or /d.l/, just as intervocalic /tl/ can be /t.l/. this is also noticeable in foreign words or names like sandler or chandler where sometimes it's /d.l/ and other times it's /dl/ Brawlio ( talk) 05:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Hi @ Brawlio, I appreciate your contribution regarding the occurrence of /ʎ, ɲ/ after other consonants. However, I think we'll both agree that the article shouldn't be left in this state, so let's discuss what the best end state for the article would be. Do you think nothing of this kind should be mentioned, or do you think the current statements are indefensibly broad but have some kernel of truth to them?
It's obvious that these consonants are not strictly prohibited in that position, but I wonder if you would concede that they are at least uncommon, or not found in native vocabulary (other than compound/prefixed words)? huaiño, aclla, lliclla are borrowings from Quechua: I assume that Baker 2004 intended to exclude words of this type. As a thesis, the paper by Baker is not a top-rate source, so I'd be fine with removing it, but I think Morales-Front 2018 deserves some weight as an academic source, although its coverage of this topic is brief and not very clear (All I found to go on was the statement that "[ɾ] and [ɲ] are restricted word-initially"). Urszag ( talk) 07:00, 8 March 2024 (UTC)