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Reading this article I´m convinced it as to do more with jews from Portugal then from both iberian countries. So, it´s should be called Portuguese Jews, I supose. Who else agrees ? User:Mistico
It is about as illogical to merge this article with Sephardi Jews as it would be to merge Mitnagdim with Ashkenazi Jews. Actually, it would be even more illogical, since Mitnagdim and Chasidim share their traditional everyday language (Yiddish), whereas Spanish and Portuguese Jews and other Sephardim do not. -- Olve 04:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree this should stay seperate. Sephardim specifically refers to the Jews that were expelled fomr the Iberian. This article's subject is clearly different.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to add a category without asking others -- what about some links here to notable S&P Jews (or those with S&P ancestry) -- I'm thinking specifically of Disraeli, Moses Montefiore, Menasseh ben Israel etc. Thoughts? Salut0 18:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I usually think that lists of people are easily abused and should be used with great care within Wikipedia. It often becomes an easy way to link to your favorite articles -- especially those which you have worked on and are partial to. I would suggest that You can add the category Spanish and Portuguese Jews to those people you would want to name in the list. Just musing here... Guedalia D'Montenegro 19:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says: "the Livorno (Leghorn) tradition, however, includes many of the cabbalistic additions found in most other Sephardi traditions. The current London minhag follows the Livorno tradition in this respect."
What is the authority for this proposition? In my experience the London minhag is very much within the Spanish and Portuguese mainstream and has relatively few cabbalistic additions, though it may be that a detailed comparison with, say, Amsterdam would reveal a few. A certain number of cabbalistic usages (e.g. the seder for Tu Bishvat) had crept into both the London and the Amsterdam traditions by the eighteenth century, and have since been dropped: some, like the custom of performing the Birkat Hakohanim every Shabbat, are now stronger in Amsterdam than in London.
I think the confusion may arise from the phrase "the Livorno tradition". It is important to distinguish between the usages of Livorno for home consumption, which were basically similar to other Spanish and Portuguese communities, and the "Livorno siddurim" which were printed in the nineteenth century for the use of the Sephardic world as a whole. These latter had a much more cabbalistic character, and most of the Oriental rites of today are based on them, with certain local variations. I do not know whether there was any special affinity between London and the domestic Livorno tradition, but certainly London has never adopted the "Livorno siddurim" for export.-- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure whether this is intended to be a list of all communities that ever existed, or of those that survive. Either way there are some inaccuracies.
I have never heard of a Spanish and Portuguese synagogue in Leeds, though it is possible that one existed in the nineteenth century. (In the early nineteenth century there was even one in Dublin, though that since merged into the general Jewish community.)
We also need to distinguish between Spanish and Portuguese synagogues proper and those Reform and Conservative communities that have Sp & Port roots (such as some in the US South and the West Indies, and in a sense West London). -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally (Olve): are there still Sp & P communities in Scandinavia? I presume so, from your level of knowledge. Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
What about the current communities in Portugal? I know Belmonte is a special case, as they have only "come out" recently, and are being helped by the Masorti (Ashkenazi rite) community in London rather than by the established communities in Lisbon and Oporto. But I have an idea that Lisbon and Oporto were helped by Bevis Marks at the outset, and are therefore part of the Sp & Port family in some sense. Not having been there, I can't judge their present day flavour. Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've added several things since I found this page yesterday and joined the NetEsnoga list, but I have only just created a Wikipedia account. Notwithstanding the discussion here, which shows the complexity of the issue, can we at least append a note to the list to show which of these communities are still functioning in the list of synagogues/places? I, for one, would like this page to be a practical resource for the preservation of the minhag and hence it is important for travellers to know whether a synagogue is functioning if they are planning on visiting somewhere abroad. salut0 4 October 2006
I agree with Salut0 that we should at the very least indicate which of the communities listed are still active. There are several communities and synagogues listed which are now defunct. On a second matter - I object to some of Olve's generalizations above. Specifically, the NY and Philadelphia congregations (Shearith Israel and Mikveh Israel) both follow S&P textual liturgy 100% unlike what he has implied above. Also, I do not think that there are any S&P synagogues which are populated by a majority of S&P Jews, with the possible exception of Gibraltar. I am certain, that like NY and Philadelphia, Montreal, London and Amsterdam too are populated in the main by other types of Jews (be it Ashkenazic, Iraqi, Algerian, Tunisian or Morroccan.) Guedalia D'Montenegro 05:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
To clarify the situation in Newport (Jeshuat Israel)I would like to add that the Rabbis there have been Ashkenazic for many decades now and that although they used to use the de Sola Pool Siddur until the 70's, in recent decades they have been using more Ashkenzic siddurim. Currently they use an Artscroll "nussach sefard" siddur which as is obvious is actually Hassidic - but I think it is used in order to satisfy the Congregations constitution which states that the services are to be conducted according to the Sephardic rite. (Just my impression of why they would use the "nussach Sfard" siddur, perhaps someone else can clarify.) In any event - you will not find an S&P service in Newport. Guedalia D'Montenegro 05:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Regarding comments by Guedalia and Sir Myles, what does "S&P by population" mean anyway? Does having maternal ancestry count you in, but an Ashkenazi father, or does your family name have to preserve an original S&P surname? -- Salut0 18:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good...In addition, I think we should break out a new section on liturgy, with nussach / music being a sub-heading of that section. History, Synagogues, Liturgy, Current Communities - sounds like an improvement. Guedalia D'Montenegro 13:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, should we count Gibraltar as part of the Sp&P family? Or is it closer to the Spanish-Moroccan (Tetuan, Melilla etc.) family? Or are there some synagogues of each kind? Please enlighten me, someone who has been there! -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says: "The תֿ (Tav rafé) is pronounced like t in all traditions of Spanish and Portuguese Jews today, although the consistent transliteration as th in 17th century sources may suggest an earlier differentiation of תֿ and תּ."
I am not sure about the th/t point. Transliteration by "th" does not necessarily indicate a "theta" pronunciation, as in French, German and Dutch "th" is pronounced in the same way as "t". The concern to distinguish "tav rafe" in spelling may have been influenced by the spelling conventions of Bible translations and Hebrew grammars of Christian origin, which descend from the use of θ in the Septuagint.
I know of no Jewish community which pronounces tav rafe as theta except the Iraqis and the Yemenites. In this as in most matters, Hebrew pronunciation tends to follow the local Arabic vernacular, with only a limited influence from the formal rules of "tajwid" (the accepted pronunciation of classical Arabic, as laid down for the reading of the Quran): for example Syrian Jews, in their pronunciation of "qof", vary between the vernacular glottal stop and the tajwid guttural k (and Yemenites say "g"). Thus in most Arabic-speaking countries outside Arabia and Iraq, the letter "tha" is pronounced as t (or occasionally s) in the vernacular, and "th" is only used in tajwid.
Occasionally, Jews of recent Spanish or Italian origin pronounce a final tav as "d", though this is obsolescent. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Is the Dutch pronunciation of the Gimmel worthy of mention in this article?
Guedalia D'Montenegro
04:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC) -- Perhaps it should go in
Sephardic Jews in the Netherlands -- M na G
Thoughts on Hebrew transliteration as used on the wiki page: Perhaps we should use a standardised form of transliteration and not a historical one, notwithstanding the erudite (and very much welcome and enlightening) comments regarding the use of sibilants? It seems to me to make more sense to transliterate eg "Sha'ar haShamayim" rather than "Saar Asamaim", if only to be comprehensible to 21st century readers. Comments on the history of Hebrew transliteration in the S&P tradition in this language section are valuable as historical data, but perhaps it would behove us to adhere more to current practice in most transliterations here. Unless there is a significant contingent of S&P Jews nowadays who use the archaic transliteration for all Hebrew transliterated words, as opposed to somewhat fossilised proper terms such as "Mahamad" (=Ma'amad in Mod. Heb. transliteration) or "Heshaim" (=Etz Hayim)... User:salut0 Oct 5th 2006
For too long I have been ignorant as to why S&P Jews pronounce "Kal Nidre" on Kippur and "Kal Ngatzmotai" in the Shacharit of Shabbat. Perhaps someone with a bit more grammatical expertise than I can explain it. I believe it is nearly unique to S&P (I think the Northern Moroccans may also use this pronunciation, but I am not sure). Similarly, Dutch S&P'ers pronounce the phrase "Hashibenu Ado-nai elecha vAnashuba" In NY we pronounce the last word as "vEnashuba" as most others would as well. Does anyone have any insight? I assume that both these rare pronunciations have some grammatical explanation. Can anyone comment? Guedalia D'Montenegro 01:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
In answer to your message on my talk page: I wonder what the Pereira/Cardozo "grammatical rule" was. Did it have anything to do with the fact that the shevá of "venashuba" has a meteg (ga'ya) and therefore requires extra emphasis? If so, this might be related to my explanation. The root cause of the whole vocal shevá/hataf patahh confusion is the fact that in Arabic there is no distinction between "a" and "e": so Babylonian Jews (and maybe others) pronounced patahh, segol and vocal shevá as /æ/ (like the a in "cat"), as Yemenite Jews do to this day; and this also explains the Aleppo Codex's convention. So if the S&P pronunciation of vocal shevá oscillates between a and e (it is certainly never the indistinct sound of English "the", as in Ashkenazi and Israeli Hebrew) this is highly significant. Any further thoughts welcome. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
In the section on Synagogues, the article maintains that in the 19th century the Philadelphia and London Communites published identical prayer books. What is the source for this. As far as I am aware, the Philadelphia congregation published the Leeser prayerbooks (he was their Hazzan at the time) and London used the De Sola books (De Sola was the Hazzan in Montreal at the time). In England the De Sola books were eventually replaced with Gaster. Perhaps some confusion has develpoed as a result of the re-printed Leeser fast-day books. In the 1960's a reprinting of the Leeser book for fast-days was co-published by NY and London communities. If there was a ninteenth century collaboration does anyone have a source? Guedalia D'Montenegro 05:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"A certain number of cabbalistic usages (e.g. the seder for Tu Bishvat) had crept into both the London and the Amsterdam traditions by the eighteenth century, and have since been dropped: some, like the custom of performing the Birkat Hakohanim every Shabbat, are now stronger in Amsterdam than in London." .-- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I just read the comment on Birkat Kohanim. Actually this is done every shabbat in Lauderdale Rd (London) now after a (not uncontentious) vote of the yehidim on the matter a few years ago. -- 70.23.92.232 18:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a very interesting and significant development by the Lauderdale Rd. Synagogue. Can you give us some more details? The Priestly Benediction is a biblical commandment, and should most likely be performed everyday. Many Eastern Sephardic and Levantine communities do so still and the custom in Israel (among all groups) is to pronounce the blessings everyday. For a variety of religious, cultural and envrionmental reasons European Jews (Ashkenazic, Italian and Sephardic) limited the custom to pronounce the Priestly Blessing to Holy-days alone. S&P communities thus originally performed the priestly blessings only on Holidays, just as their Ashkenazic neighbors. In 1666, the Messianic movement of Shabbetai Tzebi exploded throughout the Jewish world. In Amsterdam it was decided that in response to the news of the messiah they would institute the saying of the priestly blessing on Shabbat. This new minhag was not stopped after Tzebi converted to Islam and it continues to this very day in Amsterdam. This minahg was NOT adopted in other communities. Thus in London and New York the Priestly blessing remained only on the holidays (as it still is done in NY). In the Philadelphia congregation (Mikveh Israel) the priestly benediction is now performed on Sabbaths. This was an innovation and accomodation for other Sephardic groups. If the news reported above is true regarding the adoption of this minhag in London it is very interesting and probably reflects a concession on the part of the Rabbinate and Mahamad to the growing influence of the Iraqi community. For a fuller discussion of the historical background see Gaguine, Keter Shem Tob, pp. 222-226. Guedalia D'Montenegro 20:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"If the news reported above is true regarding the adoption of this minhag in London [sc. in Lauderdale Rd] it is very interesting and probably reflects a concession on the part of the Rabbinate and Mahamad to the growing influence of the Iraqi community." -- Exactly. This is what happened, but the irony was that several of the (mainly Iraqi) movers and shakers behind the change have since left to form their own breakaway synagogue due to other concerns, although the practice of birkat kohanim every shabbat has remained despite their departure. Salut0 02:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Do any other British S&P synagogues (other than Lauderdale Rd.)do the Birkat Cohanim on Shabbat as well? Also, as I am not sure of the relationship between the synagogues...are the various S&P congregations related organizationally? is there still a Sephardic Chief Rabbi? Does Abraham Levy have the title Haham? Or was the last Haham of the community Solomon Gaon? Guedalia D'Montenegro 16:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
No idea about other British S&P birkat kohanim. The last Haham was Dr Gaon -- the succession was sadly a contentious matter and thus no new Haham was declared. What do you mean by a Sephardic Chief Rabbi? Jonathan Sacks is the only official chief rabbi in England of whom I know. Organizationally, this is quite complicated -- not entirely sure myself of the intricacies. Best for you to get hold of a copy of the London community's Ascamot and read through them. But this is really not my remit and I'd like to stay away from antagonising anyone! -- Salut0 20:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know the source for the claims in this section? I do not beleive that S&P jewry can be said to have been more accepting of Organ music as a whole. Each community should be examined individually. Certianly, in the US there was no consensus...Newport, New York and Philadelphia never permitted the use of an Organ on Shabbat. New York does keep a free standing organ in its choir loft - it is used (and has only ever been used) at weddings or other weekday ceremonies. The communities in the south (namely Richmond and Savannah) were heavily influenced by reform in the 19th century and adopted the use of organs among other reforms which eventually resulted in both communities aligning with the Reform movement.
In France, we must remember that Chief Rabbinate permitted the use of Organs with certain restrictions (only gentile organists could be employed, etc.) France had (and to some degree continues to have) a unique consistory system with an organized rabbinate (I beleive that Rabbis are still government employees on France). Therefore the adoption of Organs in Bayonne and Bordeaux would have been in keeping with other synagogues throughout France and not reflective of any S&P attitude.
As to Curacao, I am not sure of its trajectory, but its merger with the reform Emmanuel Synagogue and subsequent adoption of reconstructionist Judaism is probably more at play than any Spanish and Portuguese attitude toward organ music.
In light of the above, I do not beleive that this section is quite accurate. It probably should be re-written. Any comments? Guedalia D'Montenegro 04:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect to Olve - he is way off here. Organ music was not a feature of Spanish and Portuguese synagogues or S&P judaism in general. If anything can be said on this subject it is that some S&P communities adopted the use of the organ to varying degrees during the spread of reform Judaism. I will look up Serussi who seems to the main source for this section. Olve - please provide an exact source for Dobrinsky and Swerling (I have been looking through Dobrinsky's "treasury of Sephardic laws" and the only thing on the subject is on p. 60-61 where it states that "There was also controversy about whether or not one could have musical accompaniment (an organ) for the wedding....it was approved that [Shearith Israel in NY] would allow an organ for the musical accompaniment to the ceremony." A careful review of this source, Olve, tells you that the organ is NOT used at other services. Furthermore - This entire controversy (about weekday usage of an organ) took place after the Reform usage of the organ became commonplacein the nineteenth century. Any mention of the Charleston congregation is completely misguided as well. Beth Elohim was a Spanish and Portuguese congregation founded in the mid 18th century in Charleston, South Carolina. NO ORGAN WAS EVER USED IN THE U.S.A. until 1840 when an Organ was instituted with great controversy in Congregation Beth Elohim. The Organ was only one of many reforms that were instituted at that time in Beth Elohim. The traditionalists objected vehemently and sued the Adjunta. The result of the litigation was that the traditionalists, who were outnumbered by the reformers, seceded and formed their own congregation (named Shearith Israel) where NO organ was played. This entire controversy was only a result of religious reform being introduced in the US. Any asserion that S&P congregations have or once had a tradition that instrumental music (organ or otherwise) is played in the synagogue is simply false. As to Curacao - The article itself indicates (without saying it) that the introduction was a religious reform - being that it was only introduced in the late nineteenth century. West London Synagogue is Ashkenazic Reform. The three largest S&P communties historically and today (Amsterdam, London and New York) do not use an Organ during prayer services on Sabbaths or Holidays - nor have they ever.
"The Reform movement started out with a lot of inspiration from Spanish and Portuguese communities; and the West London and Charleston communities were mainly initiated by Spanish and Portuguese Jews. Separating between Sephardi and Reform elements in such cases is not very easy..." This is not true. Religious reformers did idealize Spanish Jewry - but this has very little to do with Spanish and Portuguese liturgical practice or Spanish and Portuguese Jews. Organ usage within S&P synagogues, to the extent that there is any, is the result of the Religious reform movement of the nineteenth century - with the one possible exception being the Hamburg community. That instrumental music was used in Italy and Prague (albeit not on sabbaths unless played by gentiles) and was the source for the reformers introduction of the organ has no significance for an article about S&P Jews. The only thing that can be said, perhaps, is that some isolated S&P communities adopted religious reforms during the rise of the reform movement. Is this reason enough to have a section entitled "Organ Music"? Should we also have a section entitled "Sermons" as the preaching of a sermon in the vernacular was a reform innovation adopted by many S&P synagogues? Obviously not - my point is that this section should perhaps be in an article about Synagogue music and not Spanish and Portuguese Jews. I hope that others will give their opinions here. I still think this section should be eliminated entirely - alternativlely it should be altered significantly. Guedalia D'Montenegro 00:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone here knows about the cultural resistance of some S&P communities to avoid wearing yarmujke as being an Askhenazi custom? I've seen pictures of S&P Synagogues even into in the 1970's with men wearing top and fedora hats, and even today birettas are common in Eastern Sephardi communities, or those fancy chef-like hats used in the Rome community.
Hello Guedalia D'Montenegro! Why did you revert my addition of WikiProject Portugal & WikiProject Spain to this article? The connection seems obvious... The Ogre 13:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello The Ogre, I dislike tags in general, it is true. I find them distracting and pointless. That is when they are attached to an appropriate subject matter. In this case Attaching Spain and Portugal project tags is innappropriate. If you read the begining of the article you will see that this article is not about spain or portugal. Rather, this article is about a particular ethnic/liturgical sect of Jews. S&P Jews have had little or nothing to do with Spain or Portugal in 400 years. And, at the time that they did live in Spain or Portugal, there was no such thing as "Spanish and Portuguese" Jewry. I feel that the tags you placed on this discussion page are a)pointless b) distracting and c)innappropriate. I will probably remove them again soon - after allowing time for people to comment. Guedalia D'Montenegro 03:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the tags - again. I repeat my belief that tags are a distraction. How does one decide whether a "tag" is appropriate or not? This article could conceivably have 10 or 20 tags (Every place where an S&P community exists or existed, not to mention Judaism, Sefardim, etc.) all claiming a relevence of the article and tagging it. No, I think the best thing is to keep all tags off. Guedalia D'Montenegro 01:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The following:
"The use of the terms Portuguese Jews and Jews of the Portuguese nation in some areas (mainly in the Netherlands and Hamburg/Scandinavia) seems to have arisen primarily as a way for the Spanish and Portuguese Jews to distance themselves from Spain in the times of political tension and war between Spain and the Netherlands in the 17th century."
... might be true for the Netherlands. The comunities of Hamburg an Altona were of Portuguese heritage. They used Portuguese as langugage in the records of the synagogue and the epitaphs of the Altona cemetery are Portugese an Hebrew. There was also a considerable number of Portuguese christians in Hamburg (in the 17. century). -- Catrin 03:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Epitaphs in Livorno were in Spanish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.14.215 ( talk) 22:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Can someone please stop correcting "Spanish and Portuguese" to "Portuguese and Spanish". "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" is the accepted term of art for the ethno-religious group to which this article relates. It is not a case of "Spanish Jews" plus "Portuguese Jews", where neutrality requires alphabetical precedence. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Livorno Jewry had the so-called "Portuguese and Spanish community of Livorno".
There have been several commercially available recordings of S&P music released over the past few years. [In fact one was released by Hazzan Daniel Halfon just a few weeks ago.] I wonder if we could add a section about these recordings to the article, or, whether that would be an improper commercialization of this article. I can think of 7, in print, commercially available recordings that have been released in the past 5 years or so. Several more if we include the communities of Florence / Leghorn. These recordings may be of use to people interested in this article. Any thoughts? Guedalia D'Montenegro —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 06:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Recently there was a short back and forth about the transliteration of the Ayin in this article. This got me thinking about the S&P Ngayin. The article mentions that this pronunciation is shared with Italian Jews. No mention, however, is made of the curious crossover with certain other rites. In Yiddish, for example, the name Jacob is frequently pronounced as "Yankov" or "Yankele." There are some other examples as well. Does anyone have any info about this S&P - Yiddish cross-over? Guedalia D'Montenegro ( talk) 17:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is continually getting better. Kudos to Sir Myles. One area I think should be expanded. S&P cantillation deserves to be described. I will start something - but hopefully those who know more will help me. Guedalia D'Montenegro ( talk) 03:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
As you can see, I've been cleaning up the section on particular communities. But there are several loose ends concerning the communities of Suriname and the Caribbean; can someone give me some more information?
None of these synagogues appears to have its own website. Has anyone been in any of these places recently enough to know the current position? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 13:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Spanish & Portuguese Jews weren't only found in Holland, but also in Hamburg (a Hansestadt in now Germany, along with its satellites, Rostock, Lübeck, and Kiel), in Christiania, København and later also in Brandenburg and Stockholm. Indeed it is these communities that formed what would eventually become the core of this community (as distinct, essentially, as the "European" Sfaradim, as opposed to those who found refuge from the Expulsion, in the Muslim lands, later esp. under the Ottomans), even though by a century ago already, their influence was already undergoing Ashkenazi obliteration. Tomer talk 07:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The main synagogue in Madrid describes itself as "Sephardi". But is it Spanish and Portuguese in the same sense as the others described? If so, it should be included.
Also, there is the case of Ceuta and Melilla. Demographically and liturgically they occupy a mid-point between Gibraltar (which is generally counted as Spanish and Portuguese) and Tetuan/Tangiers (which is generally counted as Spanish-Moroccan), though all three are pretty similar; and they regard themselves as the sole surviving continuation of the pre-expulsion community of Spain. Do we include them? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 11:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I have some serious doubts that the present communities in Portugal presented in the article are of "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" in the narrow sense defined here. The Lisbon Synagogue has its origin in the Sephardi Jews from Morocco and Gibraltar; the Porto synagogue was founded by Marranos coming back to mainstream Judaism; The Belmonte community is of Marrano origin, only recently having come out of crypto-judaism into mainstream one. Should these 3 communities be here? The Ogre ( talk) 15:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry too many suppositions and opinions instead of facts in this Wiki; For one there are multiple origins of Jews in Spanish and Portuguese long primarily Celtic history. But there are three groups of Jewish type enclaves in Portugal. You have Porto, being part of the largest Jewish Population outside of Israel in Europe. The majority have been Crypto Jews with periods of relative peace from Emperor Hadrian's Curse of the Jews, banning of both Judaism and Hebrew used in worship in Synagogues. Recently both Spain and Portugal are offering Conditional Citizenship to those whose relatives suffered under the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisition. Although many are still in hiding, Conversos are just accepted by the government as Conversos.
However in both Spain and Portugal... Crypto Jews living in the Country are slow to come out of the closet this time. They have citizenship and most taking the Citizenship offer up come from other countries... like in the Americas. But in Norte Portugal besides both Conversos and Crypto Jews in Porto, you have two other enclaves Norte Portugal and Central Portugal. Barranco Jews carry mostly Celtic DNA base as only some are related to Jews migrating from Israel and Northern Italy. These Jews are the ones that brought 'Ladina' Language (equivalent to old Spanish and it's roots) with it's close cousin in Spain being 'Ladino'. Which Cryptos brought to Iberian Peninsula to be able to secretly worship in private. Since it was the Romans who Banned spoken Hebrew. But Romans couldn't understand it and they were like code languages for the Cryptos to continue worshiping Judaism even amongst the Romans and Catholics. Pedro Nunes (Mathematician and Navigator) was part of the Central Portugal Jews most of which were migrants from Morocco. Which could have darker skin or light skin from Morocco, as Berbers and Carthaginians.
For the most part you'll find more Moroccan and Jewish Sephardic with Jewish DNA in the south than in the North. But... those Jews will also carry the Jewish SNP marker with R1b L21 Haplogroup. My main point is that you can have many forms of Jewish Ancestry and this Wiki is wrong to claim they are all Conversos. You have Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Scripto Jews in both Spain and Portugal. But most Jews are losing fear of coming out of the closet today. Like they did from earliest time after Emperor Hadrian swore to kill them all and Anti Semitism through time have tried and failed to genocide them out of existence!
Those relatives of Pedro Nunes that had not become 'Conversos' and were punished by the Portuguese Inquisition for being practicing Jews under threat of Death or Banishment either lost in Catholic Inquisition Courts. Fled to the Americas, Azores and Brasil, while Spanish Jews fled to Americas with many going with Cortez from Majorca to Puerto Rico. But those like Pedro Nunes who were 'Conversos' simply fell into Roman Catholic will. Stopped using 'Ladina' altogether and no Hebrew even in private. Instead Pedro Nunes named his navigation tool after Latin 'Nonios' or meaning '9th' for Ninth Legion. But to some Jews they used this to mean they were of the 9th (Ninth) Tribe of Israel.
Now here's how the surname 'Nunes' or 'Nunez' in the Iberian Peninsula came about; When Jews were banned from Israel they migrated out in all directions. A large portion went to Italy North of Rome. Where they developed 'Ladino', written right to left in Hebrew that sounded like Old Spanish to Romans. What the Romans and even some Jewish like 'Conversos' didn't know, was how the Patronymic Surnames came about. Which is plainly stated in the Torah and the Bible. For 'Nunes' ('es' and 'ez' for Spanish) they started with the base of the 14th Letter in the Hebrew Alphabet of 'Nun'. Thus Joshua being of his father's House or Son of Nun. Nun meaning Fish or Fisherman by extension in Hebrew. What the Cryptos did, was use their Hebrew surnames in private until around the 700 to 900 BC and others simply added 'es' or 'ez' (meaning of Zion in Ladino/Ladina) to the ends of 'Nun' for 'Nunes or Nunez'!
In fact one of the tests for if you are eligible for Citizenship today in these countries is if you have knowledge of 'Ladina/Ladino' language, practicing Jew and your relatives stayed or migrated out of Portugal in this case. Another thing to remember about this, is that it wasn't until well after Romans got defeated that Jews started using their Judaic surnames. Cortez was Jewish by birth and used the Hebraic Sephardic surname with 'ez' on the end. But like I said.... Pedro Nunes was a 'Converso' who had adopted to 'Nunes' Latin roots of of his name meaning 'Ninth'as his Nonus tool was named after!
Another thing to remember about practicing Jews in Portugal there are 4 to 5 enclaves of still practicing jews of both Converso and some even that are still Crypto Jews. Some even still use 'Ladina' no longer written in Hebrew after the 1800's.... written in Hebrew 'Right to Left'. Someone needs to list the the different forms of Jews. How is 'Converso' different from 'Crypto' Jews. How even if you don't test for Sephardic or Ashkenazi or whatever Jewish Ancestry. You can still test positive for the Jewish SNP Marker. That's even if you don't come up with J1 Haplogroup. Another note; Unless you are a Practicing Jew, even w/ ancestors of Jewish Descent... if you just have a surname on the 'Holy Office of the Inquisition's Banned Jewish surname... you'll need to prove by a knowledge of 'Ladina' in Portugal to get the Free Forgiveness Citizenship still being offered last I checked! — Preceding unsigned comment added by IKroneous ( talk • contribs)
Could someone explain the correct use of these, as it seems somewhat confusing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_and_Portuguese_Jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sephardi_Jews
which categories should Daniel Mendoza and Isaac Bitton (boxer) be in?
Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jarrowsky ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I have been told by congregants at S&P synagogue that it is the S&P minhag to discourage use of kippot outside of synagogue/ritual practices, in order to maintain the difference between kedusha and not. Does anyone have a source for this so I can post it in this wiki article? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.210.115 ( talk) 12:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I have not heard that the term 'Spanish and Portuguese Jews' is restricted to those Sephardim whose family histories included an interlude of forced conversion. Does anyone have a source for this claim? CharlesMartel ( talk) 16:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)CharlesMartel
Spanish and portuguese Jews refer to any one that follows the Spanish and Portuguese minhag. If you attend these synagogues most people do not descend from the original Jews from Spain or Portugal but DO keep their minhag. -- Daniel E Romero ( talk) 04:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
En el artículo se identifica a Nicolás Maduro, presidente de Venezuela, como descendiente de sefarditas. Esto no ha sido probado por ninguna investigación, ni histórica ni genealógica. Es un rumor que se ha dispersado a través de distintos medios de comunicación, basado en su apellido paterno, que en la isla de Curazao se reconoce como Levy-Maduro, de profunda raigambre sefardita,como lo fundamentó Isaac Emmanuel en su obra monumental "History of the Jews of the Netherland Antilles". Considero que hasta tanto no esté documentada su ascendencia sefardita es incorrecto incluirlo en dicha lista. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blancaisa ( talk • contribs) 02:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
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Reading this article I´m convinced it as to do more with jews from Portugal then from both iberian countries. So, it´s should be called Portuguese Jews, I supose. Who else agrees ? User:Mistico
It is about as illogical to merge this article with Sephardi Jews as it would be to merge Mitnagdim with Ashkenazi Jews. Actually, it would be even more illogical, since Mitnagdim and Chasidim share their traditional everyday language (Yiddish), whereas Spanish and Portuguese Jews and other Sephardim do not. -- Olve 04:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree this should stay seperate. Sephardim specifically refers to the Jews that were expelled fomr the Iberian. This article's subject is clearly different.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to add a category without asking others -- what about some links here to notable S&P Jews (or those with S&P ancestry) -- I'm thinking specifically of Disraeli, Moses Montefiore, Menasseh ben Israel etc. Thoughts? Salut0 18:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I usually think that lists of people are easily abused and should be used with great care within Wikipedia. It often becomes an easy way to link to your favorite articles -- especially those which you have worked on and are partial to. I would suggest that You can add the category Spanish and Portuguese Jews to those people you would want to name in the list. Just musing here... Guedalia D'Montenegro 19:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says: "the Livorno (Leghorn) tradition, however, includes many of the cabbalistic additions found in most other Sephardi traditions. The current London minhag follows the Livorno tradition in this respect."
What is the authority for this proposition? In my experience the London minhag is very much within the Spanish and Portuguese mainstream and has relatively few cabbalistic additions, though it may be that a detailed comparison with, say, Amsterdam would reveal a few. A certain number of cabbalistic usages (e.g. the seder for Tu Bishvat) had crept into both the London and the Amsterdam traditions by the eighteenth century, and have since been dropped: some, like the custom of performing the Birkat Hakohanim every Shabbat, are now stronger in Amsterdam than in London.
I think the confusion may arise from the phrase "the Livorno tradition". It is important to distinguish between the usages of Livorno for home consumption, which were basically similar to other Spanish and Portuguese communities, and the "Livorno siddurim" which were printed in the nineteenth century for the use of the Sephardic world as a whole. These latter had a much more cabbalistic character, and most of the Oriental rites of today are based on them, with certain local variations. I do not know whether there was any special affinity between London and the domestic Livorno tradition, but certainly London has never adopted the "Livorno siddurim" for export.-- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure whether this is intended to be a list of all communities that ever existed, or of those that survive. Either way there are some inaccuracies.
I have never heard of a Spanish and Portuguese synagogue in Leeds, though it is possible that one existed in the nineteenth century. (In the early nineteenth century there was even one in Dublin, though that since merged into the general Jewish community.)
We also need to distinguish between Spanish and Portuguese synagogues proper and those Reform and Conservative communities that have Sp & Port roots (such as some in the US South and the West Indies, and in a sense West London). -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally (Olve): are there still Sp & P communities in Scandinavia? I presume so, from your level of knowledge. Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
What about the current communities in Portugal? I know Belmonte is a special case, as they have only "come out" recently, and are being helped by the Masorti (Ashkenazi rite) community in London rather than by the established communities in Lisbon and Oporto. But I have an idea that Lisbon and Oporto were helped by Bevis Marks at the outset, and are therefore part of the Sp & Port family in some sense. Not having been there, I can't judge their present day flavour. Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've added several things since I found this page yesterday and joined the NetEsnoga list, but I have only just created a Wikipedia account. Notwithstanding the discussion here, which shows the complexity of the issue, can we at least append a note to the list to show which of these communities are still functioning in the list of synagogues/places? I, for one, would like this page to be a practical resource for the preservation of the minhag and hence it is important for travellers to know whether a synagogue is functioning if they are planning on visiting somewhere abroad. salut0 4 October 2006
I agree with Salut0 that we should at the very least indicate which of the communities listed are still active. There are several communities and synagogues listed which are now defunct. On a second matter - I object to some of Olve's generalizations above. Specifically, the NY and Philadelphia congregations (Shearith Israel and Mikveh Israel) both follow S&P textual liturgy 100% unlike what he has implied above. Also, I do not think that there are any S&P synagogues which are populated by a majority of S&P Jews, with the possible exception of Gibraltar. I am certain, that like NY and Philadelphia, Montreal, London and Amsterdam too are populated in the main by other types of Jews (be it Ashkenazic, Iraqi, Algerian, Tunisian or Morroccan.) Guedalia D'Montenegro 05:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
To clarify the situation in Newport (Jeshuat Israel)I would like to add that the Rabbis there have been Ashkenazic for many decades now and that although they used to use the de Sola Pool Siddur until the 70's, in recent decades they have been using more Ashkenzic siddurim. Currently they use an Artscroll "nussach sefard" siddur which as is obvious is actually Hassidic - but I think it is used in order to satisfy the Congregations constitution which states that the services are to be conducted according to the Sephardic rite. (Just my impression of why they would use the "nussach Sfard" siddur, perhaps someone else can clarify.) In any event - you will not find an S&P service in Newport. Guedalia D'Montenegro 05:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Regarding comments by Guedalia and Sir Myles, what does "S&P by population" mean anyway? Does having maternal ancestry count you in, but an Ashkenazi father, or does your family name have to preserve an original S&P surname? -- Salut0 18:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good...In addition, I think we should break out a new section on liturgy, with nussach / music being a sub-heading of that section. History, Synagogues, Liturgy, Current Communities - sounds like an improvement. Guedalia D'Montenegro 13:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, should we count Gibraltar as part of the Sp&P family? Or is it closer to the Spanish-Moroccan (Tetuan, Melilla etc.) family? Or are there some synagogues of each kind? Please enlighten me, someone who has been there! -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says: "The תֿ (Tav rafé) is pronounced like t in all traditions of Spanish and Portuguese Jews today, although the consistent transliteration as th in 17th century sources may suggest an earlier differentiation of תֿ and תּ."
I am not sure about the th/t point. Transliteration by "th" does not necessarily indicate a "theta" pronunciation, as in French, German and Dutch "th" is pronounced in the same way as "t". The concern to distinguish "tav rafe" in spelling may have been influenced by the spelling conventions of Bible translations and Hebrew grammars of Christian origin, which descend from the use of θ in the Septuagint.
I know of no Jewish community which pronounces tav rafe as theta except the Iraqis and the Yemenites. In this as in most matters, Hebrew pronunciation tends to follow the local Arabic vernacular, with only a limited influence from the formal rules of "tajwid" (the accepted pronunciation of classical Arabic, as laid down for the reading of the Quran): for example Syrian Jews, in their pronunciation of "qof", vary between the vernacular glottal stop and the tajwid guttural k (and Yemenites say "g"). Thus in most Arabic-speaking countries outside Arabia and Iraq, the letter "tha" is pronounced as t (or occasionally s) in the vernacular, and "th" is only used in tajwid.
Occasionally, Jews of recent Spanish or Italian origin pronounce a final tav as "d", though this is obsolescent. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Is the Dutch pronunciation of the Gimmel worthy of mention in this article?
Guedalia D'Montenegro
04:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC) -- Perhaps it should go in
Sephardic Jews in the Netherlands -- M na G
Thoughts on Hebrew transliteration as used on the wiki page: Perhaps we should use a standardised form of transliteration and not a historical one, notwithstanding the erudite (and very much welcome and enlightening) comments regarding the use of sibilants? It seems to me to make more sense to transliterate eg "Sha'ar haShamayim" rather than "Saar Asamaim", if only to be comprehensible to 21st century readers. Comments on the history of Hebrew transliteration in the S&P tradition in this language section are valuable as historical data, but perhaps it would behove us to adhere more to current practice in most transliterations here. Unless there is a significant contingent of S&P Jews nowadays who use the archaic transliteration for all Hebrew transliterated words, as opposed to somewhat fossilised proper terms such as "Mahamad" (=Ma'amad in Mod. Heb. transliteration) or "Heshaim" (=Etz Hayim)... User:salut0 Oct 5th 2006
For too long I have been ignorant as to why S&P Jews pronounce "Kal Nidre" on Kippur and "Kal Ngatzmotai" in the Shacharit of Shabbat. Perhaps someone with a bit more grammatical expertise than I can explain it. I believe it is nearly unique to S&P (I think the Northern Moroccans may also use this pronunciation, but I am not sure). Similarly, Dutch S&P'ers pronounce the phrase "Hashibenu Ado-nai elecha vAnashuba" In NY we pronounce the last word as "vEnashuba" as most others would as well. Does anyone have any insight? I assume that both these rare pronunciations have some grammatical explanation. Can anyone comment? Guedalia D'Montenegro 01:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
In answer to your message on my talk page: I wonder what the Pereira/Cardozo "grammatical rule" was. Did it have anything to do with the fact that the shevá of "venashuba" has a meteg (ga'ya) and therefore requires extra emphasis? If so, this might be related to my explanation. The root cause of the whole vocal shevá/hataf patahh confusion is the fact that in Arabic there is no distinction between "a" and "e": so Babylonian Jews (and maybe others) pronounced patahh, segol and vocal shevá as /æ/ (like the a in "cat"), as Yemenite Jews do to this day; and this also explains the Aleppo Codex's convention. So if the S&P pronunciation of vocal shevá oscillates between a and e (it is certainly never the indistinct sound of English "the", as in Ashkenazi and Israeli Hebrew) this is highly significant. Any further thoughts welcome. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
In the section on Synagogues, the article maintains that in the 19th century the Philadelphia and London Communites published identical prayer books. What is the source for this. As far as I am aware, the Philadelphia congregation published the Leeser prayerbooks (he was their Hazzan at the time) and London used the De Sola books (De Sola was the Hazzan in Montreal at the time). In England the De Sola books were eventually replaced with Gaster. Perhaps some confusion has develpoed as a result of the re-printed Leeser fast-day books. In the 1960's a reprinting of the Leeser book for fast-days was co-published by NY and London communities. If there was a ninteenth century collaboration does anyone have a source? Guedalia D'Montenegro 05:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"A certain number of cabbalistic usages (e.g. the seder for Tu Bishvat) had crept into both the London and the Amsterdam traditions by the eighteenth century, and have since been dropped: some, like the custom of performing the Birkat Hakohanim every Shabbat, are now stronger in Amsterdam than in London." .-- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I just read the comment on Birkat Kohanim. Actually this is done every shabbat in Lauderdale Rd (London) now after a (not uncontentious) vote of the yehidim on the matter a few years ago. -- 70.23.92.232 18:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a very interesting and significant development by the Lauderdale Rd. Synagogue. Can you give us some more details? The Priestly Benediction is a biblical commandment, and should most likely be performed everyday. Many Eastern Sephardic and Levantine communities do so still and the custom in Israel (among all groups) is to pronounce the blessings everyday. For a variety of religious, cultural and envrionmental reasons European Jews (Ashkenazic, Italian and Sephardic) limited the custom to pronounce the Priestly Blessing to Holy-days alone. S&P communities thus originally performed the priestly blessings only on Holidays, just as their Ashkenazic neighbors. In 1666, the Messianic movement of Shabbetai Tzebi exploded throughout the Jewish world. In Amsterdam it was decided that in response to the news of the messiah they would institute the saying of the priestly blessing on Shabbat. This new minhag was not stopped after Tzebi converted to Islam and it continues to this very day in Amsterdam. This minahg was NOT adopted in other communities. Thus in London and New York the Priestly blessing remained only on the holidays (as it still is done in NY). In the Philadelphia congregation (Mikveh Israel) the priestly benediction is now performed on Sabbaths. This was an innovation and accomodation for other Sephardic groups. If the news reported above is true regarding the adoption of this minhag in London it is very interesting and probably reflects a concession on the part of the Rabbinate and Mahamad to the growing influence of the Iraqi community. For a fuller discussion of the historical background see Gaguine, Keter Shem Tob, pp. 222-226. Guedalia D'Montenegro 20:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"If the news reported above is true regarding the adoption of this minhag in London [sc. in Lauderdale Rd] it is very interesting and probably reflects a concession on the part of the Rabbinate and Mahamad to the growing influence of the Iraqi community." -- Exactly. This is what happened, but the irony was that several of the (mainly Iraqi) movers and shakers behind the change have since left to form their own breakaway synagogue due to other concerns, although the practice of birkat kohanim every shabbat has remained despite their departure. Salut0 02:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Do any other British S&P synagogues (other than Lauderdale Rd.)do the Birkat Cohanim on Shabbat as well? Also, as I am not sure of the relationship between the synagogues...are the various S&P congregations related organizationally? is there still a Sephardic Chief Rabbi? Does Abraham Levy have the title Haham? Or was the last Haham of the community Solomon Gaon? Guedalia D'Montenegro 16:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
No idea about other British S&P birkat kohanim. The last Haham was Dr Gaon -- the succession was sadly a contentious matter and thus no new Haham was declared. What do you mean by a Sephardic Chief Rabbi? Jonathan Sacks is the only official chief rabbi in England of whom I know. Organizationally, this is quite complicated -- not entirely sure myself of the intricacies. Best for you to get hold of a copy of the London community's Ascamot and read through them. But this is really not my remit and I'd like to stay away from antagonising anyone! -- Salut0 20:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know the source for the claims in this section? I do not beleive that S&P jewry can be said to have been more accepting of Organ music as a whole. Each community should be examined individually. Certianly, in the US there was no consensus...Newport, New York and Philadelphia never permitted the use of an Organ on Shabbat. New York does keep a free standing organ in its choir loft - it is used (and has only ever been used) at weddings or other weekday ceremonies. The communities in the south (namely Richmond and Savannah) were heavily influenced by reform in the 19th century and adopted the use of organs among other reforms which eventually resulted in both communities aligning with the Reform movement.
In France, we must remember that Chief Rabbinate permitted the use of Organs with certain restrictions (only gentile organists could be employed, etc.) France had (and to some degree continues to have) a unique consistory system with an organized rabbinate (I beleive that Rabbis are still government employees on France). Therefore the adoption of Organs in Bayonne and Bordeaux would have been in keeping with other synagogues throughout France and not reflective of any S&P attitude.
As to Curacao, I am not sure of its trajectory, but its merger with the reform Emmanuel Synagogue and subsequent adoption of reconstructionist Judaism is probably more at play than any Spanish and Portuguese attitude toward organ music.
In light of the above, I do not beleive that this section is quite accurate. It probably should be re-written. Any comments? Guedalia D'Montenegro 04:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect to Olve - he is way off here. Organ music was not a feature of Spanish and Portuguese synagogues or S&P judaism in general. If anything can be said on this subject it is that some S&P communities adopted the use of the organ to varying degrees during the spread of reform Judaism. I will look up Serussi who seems to the main source for this section. Olve - please provide an exact source for Dobrinsky and Swerling (I have been looking through Dobrinsky's "treasury of Sephardic laws" and the only thing on the subject is on p. 60-61 where it states that "There was also controversy about whether or not one could have musical accompaniment (an organ) for the wedding....it was approved that [Shearith Israel in NY] would allow an organ for the musical accompaniment to the ceremony." A careful review of this source, Olve, tells you that the organ is NOT used at other services. Furthermore - This entire controversy (about weekday usage of an organ) took place after the Reform usage of the organ became commonplacein the nineteenth century. Any mention of the Charleston congregation is completely misguided as well. Beth Elohim was a Spanish and Portuguese congregation founded in the mid 18th century in Charleston, South Carolina. NO ORGAN WAS EVER USED IN THE U.S.A. until 1840 when an Organ was instituted with great controversy in Congregation Beth Elohim. The Organ was only one of many reforms that were instituted at that time in Beth Elohim. The traditionalists objected vehemently and sued the Adjunta. The result of the litigation was that the traditionalists, who were outnumbered by the reformers, seceded and formed their own congregation (named Shearith Israel) where NO organ was played. This entire controversy was only a result of religious reform being introduced in the US. Any asserion that S&P congregations have or once had a tradition that instrumental music (organ or otherwise) is played in the synagogue is simply false. As to Curacao - The article itself indicates (without saying it) that the introduction was a religious reform - being that it was only introduced in the late nineteenth century. West London Synagogue is Ashkenazic Reform. The three largest S&P communties historically and today (Amsterdam, London and New York) do not use an Organ during prayer services on Sabbaths or Holidays - nor have they ever.
"The Reform movement started out with a lot of inspiration from Spanish and Portuguese communities; and the West London and Charleston communities were mainly initiated by Spanish and Portuguese Jews. Separating between Sephardi and Reform elements in such cases is not very easy..." This is not true. Religious reformers did idealize Spanish Jewry - but this has very little to do with Spanish and Portuguese liturgical practice or Spanish and Portuguese Jews. Organ usage within S&P synagogues, to the extent that there is any, is the result of the Religious reform movement of the nineteenth century - with the one possible exception being the Hamburg community. That instrumental music was used in Italy and Prague (albeit not on sabbaths unless played by gentiles) and was the source for the reformers introduction of the organ has no significance for an article about S&P Jews. The only thing that can be said, perhaps, is that some isolated S&P communities adopted religious reforms during the rise of the reform movement. Is this reason enough to have a section entitled "Organ Music"? Should we also have a section entitled "Sermons" as the preaching of a sermon in the vernacular was a reform innovation adopted by many S&P synagogues? Obviously not - my point is that this section should perhaps be in an article about Synagogue music and not Spanish and Portuguese Jews. I hope that others will give their opinions here. I still think this section should be eliminated entirely - alternativlely it should be altered significantly. Guedalia D'Montenegro 00:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone here knows about the cultural resistance of some S&P communities to avoid wearing yarmujke as being an Askhenazi custom? I've seen pictures of S&P Synagogues even into in the 1970's with men wearing top and fedora hats, and even today birettas are common in Eastern Sephardi communities, or those fancy chef-like hats used in the Rome community.
Hello Guedalia D'Montenegro! Why did you revert my addition of WikiProject Portugal & WikiProject Spain to this article? The connection seems obvious... The Ogre 13:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello The Ogre, I dislike tags in general, it is true. I find them distracting and pointless. That is when they are attached to an appropriate subject matter. In this case Attaching Spain and Portugal project tags is innappropriate. If you read the begining of the article you will see that this article is not about spain or portugal. Rather, this article is about a particular ethnic/liturgical sect of Jews. S&P Jews have had little or nothing to do with Spain or Portugal in 400 years. And, at the time that they did live in Spain or Portugal, there was no such thing as "Spanish and Portuguese" Jewry. I feel that the tags you placed on this discussion page are a)pointless b) distracting and c)innappropriate. I will probably remove them again soon - after allowing time for people to comment. Guedalia D'Montenegro 03:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the tags - again. I repeat my belief that tags are a distraction. How does one decide whether a "tag" is appropriate or not? This article could conceivably have 10 or 20 tags (Every place where an S&P community exists or existed, not to mention Judaism, Sefardim, etc.) all claiming a relevence of the article and tagging it. No, I think the best thing is to keep all tags off. Guedalia D'Montenegro 01:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The following:
"The use of the terms Portuguese Jews and Jews of the Portuguese nation in some areas (mainly in the Netherlands and Hamburg/Scandinavia) seems to have arisen primarily as a way for the Spanish and Portuguese Jews to distance themselves from Spain in the times of political tension and war between Spain and the Netherlands in the 17th century."
... might be true for the Netherlands. The comunities of Hamburg an Altona were of Portuguese heritage. They used Portuguese as langugage in the records of the synagogue and the epitaphs of the Altona cemetery are Portugese an Hebrew. There was also a considerable number of Portuguese christians in Hamburg (in the 17. century). -- Catrin 03:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Epitaphs in Livorno were in Spanish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.14.215 ( talk) 22:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Can someone please stop correcting "Spanish and Portuguese" to "Portuguese and Spanish". "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" is the accepted term of art for the ethno-religious group to which this article relates. It is not a case of "Spanish Jews" plus "Portuguese Jews", where neutrality requires alphabetical precedence. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Livorno Jewry had the so-called "Portuguese and Spanish community of Livorno".
There have been several commercially available recordings of S&P music released over the past few years. [In fact one was released by Hazzan Daniel Halfon just a few weeks ago.] I wonder if we could add a section about these recordings to the article, or, whether that would be an improper commercialization of this article. I can think of 7, in print, commercially available recordings that have been released in the past 5 years or so. Several more if we include the communities of Florence / Leghorn. These recordings may be of use to people interested in this article. Any thoughts? Guedalia D'Montenegro —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 06:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Recently there was a short back and forth about the transliteration of the Ayin in this article. This got me thinking about the S&P Ngayin. The article mentions that this pronunciation is shared with Italian Jews. No mention, however, is made of the curious crossover with certain other rites. In Yiddish, for example, the name Jacob is frequently pronounced as "Yankov" or "Yankele." There are some other examples as well. Does anyone have any info about this S&P - Yiddish cross-over? Guedalia D'Montenegro ( talk) 17:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is continually getting better. Kudos to Sir Myles. One area I think should be expanded. S&P cantillation deserves to be described. I will start something - but hopefully those who know more will help me. Guedalia D'Montenegro ( talk) 03:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
As you can see, I've been cleaning up the section on particular communities. But there are several loose ends concerning the communities of Suriname and the Caribbean; can someone give me some more information?
None of these synagogues appears to have its own website. Has anyone been in any of these places recently enough to know the current position? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 13:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Spanish & Portuguese Jews weren't only found in Holland, but also in Hamburg (a Hansestadt in now Germany, along with its satellites, Rostock, Lübeck, and Kiel), in Christiania, København and later also in Brandenburg and Stockholm. Indeed it is these communities that formed what would eventually become the core of this community (as distinct, essentially, as the "European" Sfaradim, as opposed to those who found refuge from the Expulsion, in the Muslim lands, later esp. under the Ottomans), even though by a century ago already, their influence was already undergoing Ashkenazi obliteration. Tomer talk 07:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The main synagogue in Madrid describes itself as "Sephardi". But is it Spanish and Portuguese in the same sense as the others described? If so, it should be included.
Also, there is the case of Ceuta and Melilla. Demographically and liturgically they occupy a mid-point between Gibraltar (which is generally counted as Spanish and Portuguese) and Tetuan/Tangiers (which is generally counted as Spanish-Moroccan), though all three are pretty similar; and they regard themselves as the sole surviving continuation of the pre-expulsion community of Spain. Do we include them? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 11:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I have some serious doubts that the present communities in Portugal presented in the article are of "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" in the narrow sense defined here. The Lisbon Synagogue has its origin in the Sephardi Jews from Morocco and Gibraltar; the Porto synagogue was founded by Marranos coming back to mainstream Judaism; The Belmonte community is of Marrano origin, only recently having come out of crypto-judaism into mainstream one. Should these 3 communities be here? The Ogre ( talk) 15:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry too many suppositions and opinions instead of facts in this Wiki; For one there are multiple origins of Jews in Spanish and Portuguese long primarily Celtic history. But there are three groups of Jewish type enclaves in Portugal. You have Porto, being part of the largest Jewish Population outside of Israel in Europe. The majority have been Crypto Jews with periods of relative peace from Emperor Hadrian's Curse of the Jews, banning of both Judaism and Hebrew used in worship in Synagogues. Recently both Spain and Portugal are offering Conditional Citizenship to those whose relatives suffered under the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisition. Although many are still in hiding, Conversos are just accepted by the government as Conversos.
However in both Spain and Portugal... Crypto Jews living in the Country are slow to come out of the closet this time. They have citizenship and most taking the Citizenship offer up come from other countries... like in the Americas. But in Norte Portugal besides both Conversos and Crypto Jews in Porto, you have two other enclaves Norte Portugal and Central Portugal. Barranco Jews carry mostly Celtic DNA base as only some are related to Jews migrating from Israel and Northern Italy. These Jews are the ones that brought 'Ladina' Language (equivalent to old Spanish and it's roots) with it's close cousin in Spain being 'Ladino'. Which Cryptos brought to Iberian Peninsula to be able to secretly worship in private. Since it was the Romans who Banned spoken Hebrew. But Romans couldn't understand it and they were like code languages for the Cryptos to continue worshiping Judaism even amongst the Romans and Catholics. Pedro Nunes (Mathematician and Navigator) was part of the Central Portugal Jews most of which were migrants from Morocco. Which could have darker skin or light skin from Morocco, as Berbers and Carthaginians.
For the most part you'll find more Moroccan and Jewish Sephardic with Jewish DNA in the south than in the North. But... those Jews will also carry the Jewish SNP marker with R1b L21 Haplogroup. My main point is that you can have many forms of Jewish Ancestry and this Wiki is wrong to claim they are all Conversos. You have Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Scripto Jews in both Spain and Portugal. But most Jews are losing fear of coming out of the closet today. Like they did from earliest time after Emperor Hadrian swore to kill them all and Anti Semitism through time have tried and failed to genocide them out of existence!
Those relatives of Pedro Nunes that had not become 'Conversos' and were punished by the Portuguese Inquisition for being practicing Jews under threat of Death or Banishment either lost in Catholic Inquisition Courts. Fled to the Americas, Azores and Brasil, while Spanish Jews fled to Americas with many going with Cortez from Majorca to Puerto Rico. But those like Pedro Nunes who were 'Conversos' simply fell into Roman Catholic will. Stopped using 'Ladina' altogether and no Hebrew even in private. Instead Pedro Nunes named his navigation tool after Latin 'Nonios' or meaning '9th' for Ninth Legion. But to some Jews they used this to mean they were of the 9th (Ninth) Tribe of Israel.
Now here's how the surname 'Nunes' or 'Nunez' in the Iberian Peninsula came about; When Jews were banned from Israel they migrated out in all directions. A large portion went to Italy North of Rome. Where they developed 'Ladino', written right to left in Hebrew that sounded like Old Spanish to Romans. What the Romans and even some Jewish like 'Conversos' didn't know, was how the Patronymic Surnames came about. Which is plainly stated in the Torah and the Bible. For 'Nunes' ('es' and 'ez' for Spanish) they started with the base of the 14th Letter in the Hebrew Alphabet of 'Nun'. Thus Joshua being of his father's House or Son of Nun. Nun meaning Fish or Fisherman by extension in Hebrew. What the Cryptos did, was use their Hebrew surnames in private until around the 700 to 900 BC and others simply added 'es' or 'ez' (meaning of Zion in Ladino/Ladina) to the ends of 'Nun' for 'Nunes or Nunez'!
In fact one of the tests for if you are eligible for Citizenship today in these countries is if you have knowledge of 'Ladina/Ladino' language, practicing Jew and your relatives stayed or migrated out of Portugal in this case. Another thing to remember about this, is that it wasn't until well after Romans got defeated that Jews started using their Judaic surnames. Cortez was Jewish by birth and used the Hebraic Sephardic surname with 'ez' on the end. But like I said.... Pedro Nunes was a 'Converso' who had adopted to 'Nunes' Latin roots of of his name meaning 'Ninth'as his Nonus tool was named after!
Another thing to remember about practicing Jews in Portugal there are 4 to 5 enclaves of still practicing jews of both Converso and some even that are still Crypto Jews. Some even still use 'Ladina' no longer written in Hebrew after the 1800's.... written in Hebrew 'Right to Left'. Someone needs to list the the different forms of Jews. How is 'Converso' different from 'Crypto' Jews. How even if you don't test for Sephardic or Ashkenazi or whatever Jewish Ancestry. You can still test positive for the Jewish SNP Marker. That's even if you don't come up with J1 Haplogroup. Another note; Unless you are a Practicing Jew, even w/ ancestors of Jewish Descent... if you just have a surname on the 'Holy Office of the Inquisition's Banned Jewish surname... you'll need to prove by a knowledge of 'Ladina' in Portugal to get the Free Forgiveness Citizenship still being offered last I checked! — Preceding unsigned comment added by IKroneous ( talk • contribs)
Could someone explain the correct use of these, as it seems somewhat confusing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_and_Portuguese_Jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sephardi_Jews
which categories should Daniel Mendoza and Isaac Bitton (boxer) be in?
Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jarrowsky ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I have been told by congregants at S&P synagogue that it is the S&P minhag to discourage use of kippot outside of synagogue/ritual practices, in order to maintain the difference between kedusha and not. Does anyone have a source for this so I can post it in this wiki article? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.210.115 ( talk) 12:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I have not heard that the term 'Spanish and Portuguese Jews' is restricted to those Sephardim whose family histories included an interlude of forced conversion. Does anyone have a source for this claim? CharlesMartel ( talk) 16:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)CharlesMartel
Spanish and portuguese Jews refer to any one that follows the Spanish and Portuguese minhag. If you attend these synagogues most people do not descend from the original Jews from Spain or Portugal but DO keep their minhag. -- Daniel E Romero ( talk) 04:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
En el artículo se identifica a Nicolás Maduro, presidente de Venezuela, como descendiente de sefarditas. Esto no ha sido probado por ninguna investigación, ni histórica ni genealógica. Es un rumor que se ha dispersado a través de distintos medios de comunicación, basado en su apellido paterno, que en la isla de Curazao se reconoce como Levy-Maduro, de profunda raigambre sefardita,como lo fundamentó Isaac Emmanuel en su obra monumental "History of the Jews of the Netherland Antilles". Considero que hasta tanto no esté documentada su ascendencia sefardita es incorrecto incluirlo en dicha lista. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blancaisa ( talk • contribs) 02:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
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