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@ZjarriRrethues: You removed cited information about the ethnicity of members of Spani family.
Sources:
Obitelj ova Span, de Span, Hi* spanus, Spanović podrijetlom je grčka"
{{
citation}}
: More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)Петар Спан, господар краја између Скадра и Дриваста, чији су се преци, пореклом Грци,
Stefano Span (griechischer Herkunft; im 15 Jahrhundert Drivastiner patrizier)
{{
citation}}
: More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)You explained your removal by writing in edit line: please don't make POV/OR deductions, I've already added that below. I am afraid that what you wrote is not true. The only removed information you added to the body of the article was the information about the meaning of the family name (beardles), but you did not add below the removed information about the ethnicity of Spani. Was this a mistake? In case this was not a mistake please explain your point. Let me remind you that what you did can be seen as a form of tendentious editing: removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption and you are already warned not to engage in further: " ethno-nationalist tendentious editing-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
You did write a message on my talk page, but you did not answer my questions.
In the meantime you continued with disruptive tendentious editing and removal cited addition about the Greek origin of the Spani family either directly or by misusing of the page moving.
Wikipedia:Moving a page guide explains how to move a page. You did not follow it.
You misused moving of the page to delete cited addition of other users which can be seen as Wikipedia:Tendentious editing by someone who does not AGF.
You removed the cited information about Greek origin of Spani family with this edit under false excuse that you added removed text about the Greek origin of the Spani family into the body of the article, which is not true. Although I reminded you that what you did can be seen as a form of tendentious editing because removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption and that you are already warned not to engage in further: " ethno-nationalist tendentious editing you continued with the same behaviour, falsely accused me, ignored my questions, misused moving of the page to delete my cited addition and refuse to discuss your edits.
You removed the same cited addition in other articles like here under false excuse that you explained that removal on the Talk:Spani family which you did not.
There is scientific consensus (which includes Albanian nationalistic sources) that Skanderbeg became vassal after signing the Treaty of Gaeta. When other chieftains from the region of Albania signed similar treaties they also became vassals of Kingdom of Naples:
Scanderbeg now entered into special close relations with King Alphoso of Naples....on 26 March 1451. They got along very well together, as lord and vassal...Besides Alphonso's assertion of suzerainty over Skanderbeg and the latters father in law George Arianiti Topia Golem Cominović,... Alphonso gave recognition as vassals to Ducagjini family, to Simon Zenevisi, ...
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)Seen from another perspective, one could say that Scanderbeg was drawn into a power struggle between Venice and Naples over rule in the Adriatic. For centuries, the Albanian coast had been the theatre of such struggles for hegemony. Castriota was unable to extract himself from the demands of regional geopolitics. He had originally turned to Naples for support and in 1451 had sworn an oath of allegiance. This provided him with protection and support from King Alfonso V, but it made his forces party to the war against the Republic of San Marco. Like his feudal liege, he fought on two fronts, against the Ottomans and against the Signoria. His realm was no more than a link in a broadly spanned chain of Neapolitan vassals in the Balkans against which Venice had spun a net of regional princes in its pay. As such, the Balkans were the theatre of inner-Italian warfare to which Scanderbeg would eventually fall victim and perish. Castriota’s star declined definitively in 1467 when the Venetians expelled the Neapolitans from central Albania. His hostility towards Venice, influenced at least by Naples, was the reason for his downfall.
....
Therefore, based on the above presented sources, I will return information about vassalage to Naples, removed by Aigest.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Are non-consensual and oversimplified. Specialized sources state things more clearly Aigest ( talk) 21:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
The Span are a family of Greek origin
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |coauthors=
, |doi-inactive-date=
, |separator=
, |editorn-link=
, |nopp=
, |laysummary=
, |editorn=
, |editorn-first=
, |editorn-last=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, |author-separator=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help); Unknown parameter |firstn=
ignored (
help)СПАНИ — ШПАЊЕ Приказано на V скупу Одељења историјских наука 15. септембра 1976) Спани су били разграната породица грчког порекла, ко}а ]е у XV веку имала извесну улогу у друштвеном и политичном животу северне Албаније
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |doi-inactive-date=
, |nopp=
, |month=
, |laysummary=
, |chapterurl=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)СПАНИ — ШПАЊЕ Приказано на V скупу Одељења историјских наука 15. септембра 1976) Спани су били разграната породица грчког порекла, ко}а ]е у XV веку имала извесну улогу у друштвеном и политичном животу северне Албаније [Spani - Španje; (Presented on V meeting of the Department of historical sciences on 15 September 1976) Spani was dispersed family of greek origin which had certain role in political and social life of northern Albania in 15th century]
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |doi-inactive-date=
, |nopp=
, |month=
, |laysummary=
, |chapterurl=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)...је и Петар Спан, господар краја између Скадра и Дриваста, чији су се преци, пореклом Грци, доселили у Албанију у првој половини XIV века; он је после првог освајања Србије дошао са српским деспотом Ђурђем у Дубровник и...
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |doi-inactive-date=
, |nopp=
, |month=
, |laysummary=
, |chapterurl=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)(unindent)Despite using many unused parametres even on the talkpage, you still haven't provided Bozic's original reference.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I have removed this again, because I just am not seeing the relevance. Maybe it is just badly written, but saying that Andreas Angelos Komnenos descended from an Emperor, and that his mother was a Spani, in no way indicates that he descendd from the Emperor via his mother rather than his father, and even were it through his mother, that it wasn't likewise through her mother and not through the Spani. I again request that this either be explained in a way that makes it clearly relevant, or left out. Agricolae ( talk) 23:37, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
I think that not adding long quotes makes articles more accessible. I'll place all material at this section and remove the tags.
Na ove stare, prvobitne odnose između indigenih stanovnika i Slovena u oblasti Crne Gore upućuju i narodna predanja koja redovno kao najstarije stanovnike ove oblasti označavaju Špane ili Španje, pa i najstarija napuštena groblja, kućišta i gradine zovu "španjskim" ili "iz španjskog doba". Kao ostatke ovih Špana predanja iskazuju Mataruge, Kriče, Macure, Mataguže, Bukumire i Malonšiće. Neki su naučnici tragali za narodom Špana, kojima u antičkim izvorima nema traga, a drugi su, polazeći od srednjogrčkom, sekundarnog pridjeva spanos - ćosav, označavali Špane kao ćosave ljude, pa su ih čak dovodili u vezu sa Avarima (Kovačević). Međutim, prema starogrčkom atributu spanios, u prvobitnom značenju "rijedak, rijetko", suprotno od "gust", pretpostavio sam da je naziv Spanio-Spani, kao opšti apelativ u početku označavao ilirske starosjedioce golih, karsnih brda kao "golobrđane". Naravno, ovaj opšti naziv za ilirsko stanovništvo golih brda mogli su dati jedino stanovnici grčkih emporija na obali južnog jadrana. A kako su i predanja o Španjima, po Šobajićevoj ocjeni, svježija u Pješivcima, gdje su češće i starine koje zovu "španjskim" i gdje se čak i za poneko bratstvo (Šulende) govorilo da potiče od Špana, može se sa prilično osnova pretpostaviti da je značenje grčke riječi Spanioi kasnije pretočeno u staru slovensku riječ Pješivci - Golobrđani.f274 Još je Šobajić f275 uputio na stari slovenski pridjev plješiv - go, ćelav, izveden od praslovenske riječi pleš - calvities, koji označava brojne oronime tipa Plješevica i odgovara "romanskim, fr. Caumont, Chaumont, tal. Monte calvo, kod nas Golo brdo", kako ističe Petar Skok.f276 I jedna glavica u selu Kupuscima, u Kučima, zove se Pješivac, a u Katunskoj nahiji postoji brdo Pješivac.f277 Zbog svega navedenog mislim da ime Španji, Špani treba shvatiti kao grčko opšte ime za ilirske Golobrđane, čije je značenje kasnije preuzeto i sačuvano u starom slovenskom imenu Pješivci.
Neki su naučnici tragali za narodom Špana, kojima u antičkim izvorima nema traga, a drugi su, polazeći od srednjogrčkom, sekundarnog pridjeva spanos - ćosav, označavali Špane kao ćosave ljude, pa su ih čak dovodili u vezu sa Avarima (Kovačević)Kovačević (1967) writes
Значење спан, спанос - ћосав, одговара монголоидном типу може се везати за Шпање, ако иx цматрамо као реликте Авара, поготобу што је у традицији запамћено да се Шпањи разликују и по изгледу и језику од околниx Словена, као што је Константин Порфирогенит разликовао спедином X вијека у Хрбатској Аваре од Xрвата. Ваш у облацти која се током средњег вијека назива Monti delli Spani у Мирдитима, на локалитету Калаја Далмацес (комани.
Remembrances of the Spanje or Spani live in our folk traditions over a much larger area than is the case with the Krici, Mataruge or Bukumiri. (..) The Spanje are talked about in Zeta ... northern Albania (..). As shown in Map IV, traditions of them exist in these regions mixed up with reminiscences of the ancient Luzani, as well as the "Greeks". Already J . Erdeljanović had expressed the opinionthat under this name lay hidden an ancient , pre - Serbian , even pre - Christian population of Montenegro in general , 56 and he was joined by P . Sobajić when stating that they must have been an ancient romanized Illyrian population (..) Combinations with the Albanian feudal family Span or, in Serbian Spanovic, which appears in documents in the 15th century immediately before the Turkish conquests cannot completely satisfy the requirements of a correct interpretation of this appellation. Maybe it would be more logical to connect the interpretation of the said name with the Greek word » spanos « , which would denote a beardless , bald man , and that in connection with the undisputed anthropological differences between the Old-Balkan population and the newly arrived Slavs, with which are somehow concerned also the traditions By an analysis of data that have fixed down the folk traditions of the ancient population in Montenegro it is possible to establish that the Spanje appear as the oldest population in the majority of Montenegrin tribal districts and as a younger stratum there appears a population of another name. Thus at Bjelopavlići the oldest are believed to be the » Španje « , to be followed by the Lužani , and , finally , by the present people . In the area around Nikšić and to the west of it the » Španje « are likewise the most ancient people (..)-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:14, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Alltan, actually the sources you refer to are 12, but regardless of that if you read the whole article you understand that there are more than one views. Jim Potts (2014; pp. 107–108) who is cited in the article describes it well. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 19:00, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
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@ZjarriRrethues: You removed cited information about the ethnicity of members of Spani family.
Sources:
Obitelj ova Span, de Span, Hi* spanus, Spanović podrijetlom je grčka"
{{
citation}}
: More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)Петар Спан, господар краја између Скадра и Дриваста, чији су се преци, пореклом Грци,
Stefano Span (griechischer Herkunft; im 15 Jahrhundert Drivastiner patrizier)
{{
citation}}
: More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)You explained your removal by writing in edit line: please don't make POV/OR deductions, I've already added that below. I am afraid that what you wrote is not true. The only removed information you added to the body of the article was the information about the meaning of the family name (beardles), but you did not add below the removed information about the ethnicity of Spani. Was this a mistake? In case this was not a mistake please explain your point. Let me remind you that what you did can be seen as a form of tendentious editing: removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption and you are already warned not to engage in further: " ethno-nationalist tendentious editing-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
You did write a message on my talk page, but you did not answer my questions.
In the meantime you continued with disruptive tendentious editing and removal cited addition about the Greek origin of the Spani family either directly or by misusing of the page moving.
Wikipedia:Moving a page guide explains how to move a page. You did not follow it.
You misused moving of the page to delete cited addition of other users which can be seen as Wikipedia:Tendentious editing by someone who does not AGF.
You removed the cited information about Greek origin of Spani family with this edit under false excuse that you added removed text about the Greek origin of the Spani family into the body of the article, which is not true. Although I reminded you that what you did can be seen as a form of tendentious editing because removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption and that you are already warned not to engage in further: " ethno-nationalist tendentious editing you continued with the same behaviour, falsely accused me, ignored my questions, misused moving of the page to delete my cited addition and refuse to discuss your edits.
You removed the same cited addition in other articles like here under false excuse that you explained that removal on the Talk:Spani family which you did not.
There is scientific consensus (which includes Albanian nationalistic sources) that Skanderbeg became vassal after signing the Treaty of Gaeta. When other chieftains from the region of Albania signed similar treaties they also became vassals of Kingdom of Naples:
Scanderbeg now entered into special close relations with King Alphoso of Naples....on 26 March 1451. They got along very well together, as lord and vassal...Besides Alphonso's assertion of suzerainty over Skanderbeg and the latters father in law George Arianiti Topia Golem Cominović,... Alphonso gave recognition as vassals to Ducagjini family, to Simon Zenevisi, ...
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)Seen from another perspective, one could say that Scanderbeg was drawn into a power struggle between Venice and Naples over rule in the Adriatic. For centuries, the Albanian coast had been the theatre of such struggles for hegemony. Castriota was unable to extract himself from the demands of regional geopolitics. He had originally turned to Naples for support and in 1451 had sworn an oath of allegiance. This provided him with protection and support from King Alfonso V, but it made his forces party to the war against the Republic of San Marco. Like his feudal liege, he fought on two fronts, against the Ottomans and against the Signoria. His realm was no more than a link in a broadly spanned chain of Neapolitan vassals in the Balkans against which Venice had spun a net of regional princes in its pay. As such, the Balkans were the theatre of inner-Italian warfare to which Scanderbeg would eventually fall victim and perish. Castriota’s star declined definitively in 1467 when the Venetians expelled the Neapolitans from central Albania. His hostility towards Venice, influenced at least by Naples, was the reason for his downfall.
....
Therefore, based on the above presented sources, I will return information about vassalage to Naples, removed by Aigest.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Are non-consensual and oversimplified. Specialized sources state things more clearly Aigest ( talk) 21:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
The Span are a family of Greek origin
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |coauthors=
, |doi-inactive-date=
, |separator=
, |editorn-link=
, |nopp=
, |laysummary=
, |editorn=
, |editorn-first=
, |editorn-last=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, |author-separator=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help); Unknown parameter |firstn=
ignored (
help)СПАНИ — ШПАЊЕ Приказано на V скупу Одељења историјских наука 15. септембра 1976) Спани су били разграната породица грчког порекла, ко}а ]е у XV веку имала извесну улогу у друштвеном и политичном животу северне Албаније
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |doi-inactive-date=
, |nopp=
, |month=
, |laysummary=
, |chapterurl=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)СПАНИ — ШПАЊЕ Приказано на V скупу Одељења историјских наука 15. септембра 1976) Спани су били разграната породица грчког порекла, ко}а ]е у XV веку имала извесну улогу у друштвеном и политичном животу северне Албаније [Spani - Španje; (Presented on V meeting of the Department of historical sciences on 15 September 1976) Spani was dispersed family of greek origin which had certain role in political and social life of northern Albania in 15th century]
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |doi-inactive-date=
, |nopp=
, |month=
, |laysummary=
, |chapterurl=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)...је и Петар Спан, господар краја између Скадра и Дриваста, чији су се преци, пореклом Грци, доселили у Албанију у првој половини XIV века; он је после првог освајања Србије дошао са српским деспотом Ђурђем у Дубровник и...
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |doi-inactive-date=
, |nopp=
, |month=
, |laysummary=
, |chapterurl=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)(unindent)Despite using many unused parametres even on the talkpage, you still haven't provided Bozic's original reference.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I have removed this again, because I just am not seeing the relevance. Maybe it is just badly written, but saying that Andreas Angelos Komnenos descended from an Emperor, and that his mother was a Spani, in no way indicates that he descendd from the Emperor via his mother rather than his father, and even were it through his mother, that it wasn't likewise through her mother and not through the Spani. I again request that this either be explained in a way that makes it clearly relevant, or left out. Agricolae ( talk) 23:37, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
I think that not adding long quotes makes articles more accessible. I'll place all material at this section and remove the tags.
Na ove stare, prvobitne odnose između indigenih stanovnika i Slovena u oblasti Crne Gore upućuju i narodna predanja koja redovno kao najstarije stanovnike ove oblasti označavaju Špane ili Španje, pa i najstarija napuštena groblja, kućišta i gradine zovu "španjskim" ili "iz španjskog doba". Kao ostatke ovih Špana predanja iskazuju Mataruge, Kriče, Macure, Mataguže, Bukumire i Malonšiće. Neki su naučnici tragali za narodom Špana, kojima u antičkim izvorima nema traga, a drugi su, polazeći od srednjogrčkom, sekundarnog pridjeva spanos - ćosav, označavali Špane kao ćosave ljude, pa su ih čak dovodili u vezu sa Avarima (Kovačević). Međutim, prema starogrčkom atributu spanios, u prvobitnom značenju "rijedak, rijetko", suprotno od "gust", pretpostavio sam da je naziv Spanio-Spani, kao opšti apelativ u početku označavao ilirske starosjedioce golih, karsnih brda kao "golobrđane". Naravno, ovaj opšti naziv za ilirsko stanovništvo golih brda mogli su dati jedino stanovnici grčkih emporija na obali južnog jadrana. A kako su i predanja o Španjima, po Šobajićevoj ocjeni, svježija u Pješivcima, gdje su češće i starine koje zovu "španjskim" i gdje se čak i za poneko bratstvo (Šulende) govorilo da potiče od Špana, može se sa prilično osnova pretpostaviti da je značenje grčke riječi Spanioi kasnije pretočeno u staru slovensku riječ Pješivci - Golobrđani.f274 Još je Šobajić f275 uputio na stari slovenski pridjev plješiv - go, ćelav, izveden od praslovenske riječi pleš - calvities, koji označava brojne oronime tipa Plješevica i odgovara "romanskim, fr. Caumont, Chaumont, tal. Monte calvo, kod nas Golo brdo", kako ističe Petar Skok.f276 I jedna glavica u selu Kupuscima, u Kučima, zove se Pješivac, a u Katunskoj nahiji postoji brdo Pješivac.f277 Zbog svega navedenog mislim da ime Španji, Špani treba shvatiti kao grčko opšte ime za ilirske Golobrđane, čije je značenje kasnije preuzeto i sačuvano u starom slovenskom imenu Pješivci.
Neki su naučnici tragali za narodom Špana, kojima u antičkim izvorima nema traga, a drugi su, polazeći od srednjogrčkom, sekundarnog pridjeva spanos - ćosav, označavali Špane kao ćosave ljude, pa su ih čak dovodili u vezu sa Avarima (Kovačević)Kovačević (1967) writes
Значење спан, спанос - ћосав, одговара монголоидном типу може се везати за Шпање, ако иx цматрамо као реликте Авара, поготобу што је у традицији запамћено да се Шпањи разликују и по изгледу и језику од околниx Словена, као што је Константин Порфирогенит разликовао спедином X вијека у Хрбатској Аваре од Xрвата. Ваш у облацти која се током средњег вијека назива Monti delli Spani у Мирдитима, на локалитету Калаја Далмацес (комани.
Remembrances of the Spanje or Spani live in our folk traditions over a much larger area than is the case with the Krici, Mataruge or Bukumiri. (..) The Spanje are talked about in Zeta ... northern Albania (..). As shown in Map IV, traditions of them exist in these regions mixed up with reminiscences of the ancient Luzani, as well as the "Greeks". Already J . Erdeljanović had expressed the opinionthat under this name lay hidden an ancient , pre - Serbian , even pre - Christian population of Montenegro in general , 56 and he was joined by P . Sobajić when stating that they must have been an ancient romanized Illyrian population (..) Combinations with the Albanian feudal family Span or, in Serbian Spanovic, which appears in documents in the 15th century immediately before the Turkish conquests cannot completely satisfy the requirements of a correct interpretation of this appellation. Maybe it would be more logical to connect the interpretation of the said name with the Greek word » spanos « , which would denote a beardless , bald man , and that in connection with the undisputed anthropological differences between the Old-Balkan population and the newly arrived Slavs, with which are somehow concerned also the traditions By an analysis of data that have fixed down the folk traditions of the ancient population in Montenegro it is possible to establish that the Spanje appear as the oldest population in the majority of Montenegrin tribal districts and as a younger stratum there appears a population of another name. Thus at Bjelopavlići the oldest are believed to be the » Španje « , to be followed by the Lužani , and , finally , by the present people . In the area around Nikšić and to the west of it the » Španje « are likewise the most ancient people (..)-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:14, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Alltan, actually the sources you refer to are 12, but regardless of that if you read the whole article you understand that there are more than one views. Jim Potts (2014; pp. 107–108) who is cited in the article describes it well. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 19:00, 16 April 2021 (UTC)