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It's a translation of the german article I wrote in feb. 2005. Minkowski diagrams offer a great possibility to understand relativity graphically and without mathematics. I hope the article remains free from further formulas ;-). -- Wolfgangbeyer 14:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The main page seems to mix the Minkowski spacetime diagram and the so-called Loedel spacetime diagram (by Enrique Loedel Palumbo) freely. The very first figure is actually a Loedel diagram, with two non-orthogonal axes systems. Technically and historically, the Minkowski and Loedel diagrams are not the same.
As far as I could establish [Shadowitz A. (1988) Special Relativity, Dover], the Loedel diagram was proposed in 1948 as an aid to teaching special relativity. I recommend that the author of the main Minkowski diagram article edit the page to reflect these facts.
Jorrie 03:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Given that Loedel diagrams (proposed in 1948), are a subset of Minkowski diagrams, and that Minkowski obviously originated the larger idea (he died in 1909), it seems to me that this distinction is a pedagogical nit that deserves a footnote, but is not worth encumbering the article. A Loedel diagram is a Minkowski diagram, of a special type, right? Wwheaton ( talk) 20:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The Loedel diagram IS just a special type of Minkowski diagram, where the other two observers move with equal speeds in opposite directions relative to some third frame (which we can always find, like an average). This means that the factor commonly called "gamma" is the same in both these observers frames, since it depends only on relativistic speed, and not direction. This "gamma" factor is called this since it is the ratio between measued time differences OR lengths between two different frames, and is used all the time in relativistic physics. It also happens to be factor that the scale mark is increased by, as some simple invarient interval calulations/hyperbolas will show. My physics 133 class used "Six Ideas that shaped Physics: The Laws of Physics are frame independant" by T.A. Moore to cover just about anything you can do with Lorentz transformations and Minkowski diagrams, they're introduced on page 30 and used to the end, as they're useful with deriving "four momentum" hyperbolas and the fact that mass is invariant (mass squared, technically) for a given object. The Loedel diagram is just a special minkowski diagram as it is explained on the page, but this is a pretty sorry page... as a note: (gamma)=y=(1+(v/c)^2)^(-1/2), dt'=y*dt, dx'=y*dx where primes denote tilted axes, and d_ is a measured difference on the diagram axes. also c=c not because of this diagram, but because a simple differential equation (wave eqn.) says c=c for a photon, since it's a wave. If not, we could actually have any limiting speed, even an infinite one (where Galilean transformations physically work). 172.130.75.2 ( talk) 09:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Under the heading "time dilation" there appears the sentence, "Due to OB<OA he concludes that the time passed on the clock moving relative to him is smaller than that passed on his own clock since they were together at O." This implies that change in time is equal to the length of the the line. This is false; it should be corrected. 03:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
The Minkowski diagram is an important tool for explicating relativity, and thus we do well to improve it. The phrase currently in the lede about quantitative understanding without mathematical equations signals the disappointing state of the current article. Relativity marks the first real mathematical physics, a study without manipulables. Popular books frequently seduce readers by promising insight without tears. With our wiki-links we can build understanding from fundamentals in quantitative study. So far this article has not included hyperbolas in the Minkowski diagram. Most texts consider them as much a part of a Minkowski diagram as the various time and space axes. The configuration now called a Minkowski diagram preceeded Minkowski's 1908 paper. For instance, in 1900 Alexander Macfarlane (mathematician) included such a diagram in his paper on hyperbolic quaternions. The importance of this article, and its close relation with split-complex numbers, give me reason to consider the task of revision. First, however, I'd like to hear from other editors.
For reference see [ [1]] for the original Minkowski diagram. I have been working to improve basic classical linear algebra articles that support spacetime study, such as versor#Hyperbolic versor which is an equivalent concept to Lorentz boost but arose earlier. Rgdboer ( talk) 20:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to 84user we have diagrams in Commons to draw on. Note that WK Clifford has a diagram on page 90 of his Elements of Dynamic (1878) that contains information usually associated with the Minkowski diagram. We can make relativity more easily understood by improving this page to provide the view of spacetime that these Clifford-Macfarlane-Minkowski diagrams afford. Rgdboer ( talk) 03:31, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Upon reflection, now it seems indeed the Minkowski diagram can bring understanding without equations. In fact, the diagram is a tool in synthetic geometry. However, contrary to the current state of the article, the literature uses a "calibration hyperbola" to illustrate the effect of a Lorentz transformation. See unit hyperbola for the geometric context of the Minkowski diagram. Rgdboer ( talk) 03:06, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to be picky, but should not the bisector referred to in para 3 have the equation ct = x'? Chumod ( talk) 16:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
In the section titled "Path-time diagram in Newtonian physics", the article claims to provide a picture of a Galilean transformation; however, the point A is farther along the blue (ct') axis than the black (ct) one (indicating a sort of time dilation). This doesn't seem correct to me, since time dilation is a concept encapsulated by a Lorentz transformation (as opposed to a Galilean one). Am I misinterpreting the diagram, or is the diagram wrong? Luolimao ( talk) 22:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Could someone clarify this for me? The article says:
"To avoid this problem it is recommended that the whole diagram be deformed in such a way that the scales become identical for all axes, eliminating any need to stretch or compress either axis. This can be done by a compression in the direction of 45° or an expansion in the direction of 135° until the angle between the time axes becomes equal to the angle between the path axes."
But the equality of angle between time axes and path axes is already assumed for a Minkowski Diagram:
"If ct instead of t is assigned on the time axes, the angle α between both path axes will be identical with that between both time axes."
Shouldn't it read, for the Loedel Diagram:
"To avoid this problem it is recommended that the whole diagram be deformed in such a way that the scales become identical for all axes, eliminating any need to stretch or compress either axis. This can be done by a compression in the direction of 45° or an expansion in the direction of 135° until the angle between ct and x becomes equal to the angle between ct' and x'." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aendolin ( talk • contribs) 14:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
First, I need to qualify my remarks by stating that I am assuming that a Minkowski Diagram is the graph that I used in my Special Relativity course I took decades ago, as well as what is generally used in SR texts and courses today (for instance: Susskind's 2007 video course (YouTube or iTunes)). It's far from clear to me that this is what is being described here. That should be unacceptable to the authors: they've failed to communicate what it is they are talking about to someone with a passing knowledge of the subject. I will confine my comments to the 3rd paragraph of the lede, which badly needs to be rewritten. Here it is: "A particular Minkowski diagram illustrates the result of a Lorentz transformation. The origin corresponds to an event where a change of velocity takes place. The new worldline forms an angle α with the vertical, with α < π/4. The Lorentz transformation that moves the vertical to α also moves the horizontal by α. The horizontal corresponds to the usual notion of simultaneous events, for a stationary observer at the origin. After the Lorentz transformation the new simultaneous events lie on the α-inclined line. Whatever the magnitude of α, the line t = x forms the universal[2] bisector."
If I were sure that this correctly captures the basic ideas (note I didn't go into worldlines, a more advanced topic imho). I'd make the changes myself. As it is, I defer to the experts.
P.S. is there really ANY reason to use the terms abscissa and ordinate here? (see next section) They are synonyms (usually) for horizontal and vertical axis. I suggest you pick a term and stick with it, and the terms need to be vertical and horizontal. 173.189.73.122 ( talk) 03:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
The use of "world line" vs "worldline" is inconsistent in the article. I recommend the former as the latter redirects to financial transaction processing company, as can be seen via the faulty link in the description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldline BoltNinja ( talk) 11:07, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
The first image was used to explain the impossibility of superluminal information speed (simplified to the special case of instantaneious flow of information). See also Wikiversity:Minkowski diagram and Superluminal communication. I would greatly appreciate help from an expert.-- Guy vandegrift ( talk) 21:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
After reading the literature, I am convinced that these can be called Minkowski diagrams, even if they are not exactly what Minkowski drew. (BTW I am pretty sure that this is what he drew, and also don't think I will be posting any of this on Wikipedia in the near future. Even if I manage to publish this stuff (its doubtful), I never cite my own work on WP-- Guy vandegrift ( talk) 04:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
I can’t say I have ever heard the term “path axis”. So, when someone used the term (which, I found out later, they got from this WkiPedia page), I thought they were referring to the spacetime path (“worldline” or “world line”).
I have performed an Internet search for “path axis” used in conjunction with Minkowski Diagrams, but the only hits I get are all quotes from this WikiPedia page.
Where is any primary reference to the use of this term in conjunction with Minkowski Diagrams?
DWHalliday ( talk) 23:14, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
source of innovation in terminology, I just wanted to express my opinion that the word "path", especially as "linear path", in its everyday meaning, bound to traversing spatial distances, might be very apt to lead uninitiated readers to the notion that is targeted in this context, without creating "terminology", not even jargon. Afaik, there are position/distance/displacement vs. time graphs around, all with a specific, "determined" meaning, but not bound to LT. I would not move even a brow, if "path" were edited out, but I do not experience its use as innovating terminology, or otherwise tumbling any pillars, but rather as harmlessly using an existing and reasonable association in explaining (1+1)-dimensional spacetime. Purgy ( talk) 08:21, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Using abbreviations which are not explained in the text is the ultimate sign of a writer who is not knowing for whom he/she is writing!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koitus~nlwiki ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Why are all the points on the diagram persistently moving downwards (in conjunction with the Lorentz transformation that appears to be "cycling back and forth"). What kind of acceleration is the observer experiencing? I would assume the acceleration matches the back and forth dilation of the diagram, so I'm not sure why all the spacetime events (which are points that occur at a particular time) are moving downwards. I feel this section needs a little more explanation as to what it's depicting.
I'm not a physicist nor an expert in relativity but I'm sure I would be able to understand a sufficiently good explanation. The rest of the article makes sense to me. Hddharvey ( talk) 00:09, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
The article states "If one imagines each event to be the flashing of a light, then the events that are *within* the past light cone of the observer are the events visible to the observer". This doesn't seem to be quite right. If the event is a flash of light (in a vacuum), I think it will arrive at (be visible to) the observer at the point where the event *crosses* the past light cone boundary. I think that it will not be visible after that, as a flash is by nature instantaneous. If on the other hand the event is a light beginning to shine then the *light* will continue to be visible as the event passes further inside the past light cone, although the event itself (the beginning of the light shining) is still instantaneous and only visible once i.e at the point where it crosses an observer's past light cone boundary. However that is my reading of it... perhaps that is not the intended meaning of the wording. I think it might be helpful if it was reworded to clarify? The section which it concludes is a particularly excellent part of the article, it would be good to maintain the same high standard here too. 2A02:C7E:3525:0:9818:5454:1986:C0A0 ( talk) 12:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
It's a translation of the german article I wrote in feb. 2005. Minkowski diagrams offer a great possibility to understand relativity graphically and without mathematics. I hope the article remains free from further formulas ;-). -- Wolfgangbeyer 14:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The main page seems to mix the Minkowski spacetime diagram and the so-called Loedel spacetime diagram (by Enrique Loedel Palumbo) freely. The very first figure is actually a Loedel diagram, with two non-orthogonal axes systems. Technically and historically, the Minkowski and Loedel diagrams are not the same.
As far as I could establish [Shadowitz A. (1988) Special Relativity, Dover], the Loedel diagram was proposed in 1948 as an aid to teaching special relativity. I recommend that the author of the main Minkowski diagram article edit the page to reflect these facts.
Jorrie 03:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Given that Loedel diagrams (proposed in 1948), are a subset of Minkowski diagrams, and that Minkowski obviously originated the larger idea (he died in 1909), it seems to me that this distinction is a pedagogical nit that deserves a footnote, but is not worth encumbering the article. A Loedel diagram is a Minkowski diagram, of a special type, right? Wwheaton ( talk) 20:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The Loedel diagram IS just a special type of Minkowski diagram, where the other two observers move with equal speeds in opposite directions relative to some third frame (which we can always find, like an average). This means that the factor commonly called "gamma" is the same in both these observers frames, since it depends only on relativistic speed, and not direction. This "gamma" factor is called this since it is the ratio between measued time differences OR lengths between two different frames, and is used all the time in relativistic physics. It also happens to be factor that the scale mark is increased by, as some simple invarient interval calulations/hyperbolas will show. My physics 133 class used "Six Ideas that shaped Physics: The Laws of Physics are frame independant" by T.A. Moore to cover just about anything you can do with Lorentz transformations and Minkowski diagrams, they're introduced on page 30 and used to the end, as they're useful with deriving "four momentum" hyperbolas and the fact that mass is invariant (mass squared, technically) for a given object. The Loedel diagram is just a special minkowski diagram as it is explained on the page, but this is a pretty sorry page... as a note: (gamma)=y=(1+(v/c)^2)^(-1/2), dt'=y*dt, dx'=y*dx where primes denote tilted axes, and d_ is a measured difference on the diagram axes. also c=c not because of this diagram, but because a simple differential equation (wave eqn.) says c=c for a photon, since it's a wave. If not, we could actually have any limiting speed, even an infinite one (where Galilean transformations physically work). 172.130.75.2 ( talk) 09:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Under the heading "time dilation" there appears the sentence, "Due to OB<OA he concludes that the time passed on the clock moving relative to him is smaller than that passed on his own clock since they were together at O." This implies that change in time is equal to the length of the the line. This is false; it should be corrected. 03:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
The Minkowski diagram is an important tool for explicating relativity, and thus we do well to improve it. The phrase currently in the lede about quantitative understanding without mathematical equations signals the disappointing state of the current article. Relativity marks the first real mathematical physics, a study without manipulables. Popular books frequently seduce readers by promising insight without tears. With our wiki-links we can build understanding from fundamentals in quantitative study. So far this article has not included hyperbolas in the Minkowski diagram. Most texts consider them as much a part of a Minkowski diagram as the various time and space axes. The configuration now called a Minkowski diagram preceeded Minkowski's 1908 paper. For instance, in 1900 Alexander Macfarlane (mathematician) included such a diagram in his paper on hyperbolic quaternions. The importance of this article, and its close relation with split-complex numbers, give me reason to consider the task of revision. First, however, I'd like to hear from other editors.
For reference see [ [1]] for the original Minkowski diagram. I have been working to improve basic classical linear algebra articles that support spacetime study, such as versor#Hyperbolic versor which is an equivalent concept to Lorentz boost but arose earlier. Rgdboer ( talk) 20:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to 84user we have diagrams in Commons to draw on. Note that WK Clifford has a diagram on page 90 of his Elements of Dynamic (1878) that contains information usually associated with the Minkowski diagram. We can make relativity more easily understood by improving this page to provide the view of spacetime that these Clifford-Macfarlane-Minkowski diagrams afford. Rgdboer ( talk) 03:31, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Upon reflection, now it seems indeed the Minkowski diagram can bring understanding without equations. In fact, the diagram is a tool in synthetic geometry. However, contrary to the current state of the article, the literature uses a "calibration hyperbola" to illustrate the effect of a Lorentz transformation. See unit hyperbola for the geometric context of the Minkowski diagram. Rgdboer ( talk) 03:06, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to be picky, but should not the bisector referred to in para 3 have the equation ct = x'? Chumod ( talk) 16:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
In the section titled "Path-time diagram in Newtonian physics", the article claims to provide a picture of a Galilean transformation; however, the point A is farther along the blue (ct') axis than the black (ct) one (indicating a sort of time dilation). This doesn't seem correct to me, since time dilation is a concept encapsulated by a Lorentz transformation (as opposed to a Galilean one). Am I misinterpreting the diagram, or is the diagram wrong? Luolimao ( talk) 22:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Could someone clarify this for me? The article says:
"To avoid this problem it is recommended that the whole diagram be deformed in such a way that the scales become identical for all axes, eliminating any need to stretch or compress either axis. This can be done by a compression in the direction of 45° or an expansion in the direction of 135° until the angle between the time axes becomes equal to the angle between the path axes."
But the equality of angle between time axes and path axes is already assumed for a Minkowski Diagram:
"If ct instead of t is assigned on the time axes, the angle α between both path axes will be identical with that between both time axes."
Shouldn't it read, for the Loedel Diagram:
"To avoid this problem it is recommended that the whole diagram be deformed in such a way that the scales become identical for all axes, eliminating any need to stretch or compress either axis. This can be done by a compression in the direction of 45° or an expansion in the direction of 135° until the angle between ct and x becomes equal to the angle between ct' and x'." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aendolin ( talk • contribs) 14:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
First, I need to qualify my remarks by stating that I am assuming that a Minkowski Diagram is the graph that I used in my Special Relativity course I took decades ago, as well as what is generally used in SR texts and courses today (for instance: Susskind's 2007 video course (YouTube or iTunes)). It's far from clear to me that this is what is being described here. That should be unacceptable to the authors: they've failed to communicate what it is they are talking about to someone with a passing knowledge of the subject. I will confine my comments to the 3rd paragraph of the lede, which badly needs to be rewritten. Here it is: "A particular Minkowski diagram illustrates the result of a Lorentz transformation. The origin corresponds to an event where a change of velocity takes place. The new worldline forms an angle α with the vertical, with α < π/4. The Lorentz transformation that moves the vertical to α also moves the horizontal by α. The horizontal corresponds to the usual notion of simultaneous events, for a stationary observer at the origin. After the Lorentz transformation the new simultaneous events lie on the α-inclined line. Whatever the magnitude of α, the line t = x forms the universal[2] bisector."
If I were sure that this correctly captures the basic ideas (note I didn't go into worldlines, a more advanced topic imho). I'd make the changes myself. As it is, I defer to the experts.
P.S. is there really ANY reason to use the terms abscissa and ordinate here? (see next section) They are synonyms (usually) for horizontal and vertical axis. I suggest you pick a term and stick with it, and the terms need to be vertical and horizontal. 173.189.73.122 ( talk) 03:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
The use of "world line" vs "worldline" is inconsistent in the article. I recommend the former as the latter redirects to financial transaction processing company, as can be seen via the faulty link in the description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldline BoltNinja ( talk) 11:07, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
The first image was used to explain the impossibility of superluminal information speed (simplified to the special case of instantaneious flow of information). See also Wikiversity:Minkowski diagram and Superluminal communication. I would greatly appreciate help from an expert.-- Guy vandegrift ( talk) 21:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
After reading the literature, I am convinced that these can be called Minkowski diagrams, even if they are not exactly what Minkowski drew. (BTW I am pretty sure that this is what he drew, and also don't think I will be posting any of this on Wikipedia in the near future. Even if I manage to publish this stuff (its doubtful), I never cite my own work on WP-- Guy vandegrift ( talk) 04:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
I can’t say I have ever heard the term “path axis”. So, when someone used the term (which, I found out later, they got from this WkiPedia page), I thought they were referring to the spacetime path (“worldline” or “world line”).
I have performed an Internet search for “path axis” used in conjunction with Minkowski Diagrams, but the only hits I get are all quotes from this WikiPedia page.
Where is any primary reference to the use of this term in conjunction with Minkowski Diagrams?
DWHalliday ( talk) 23:14, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
source of innovation in terminology, I just wanted to express my opinion that the word "path", especially as "linear path", in its everyday meaning, bound to traversing spatial distances, might be very apt to lead uninitiated readers to the notion that is targeted in this context, without creating "terminology", not even jargon. Afaik, there are position/distance/displacement vs. time graphs around, all with a specific, "determined" meaning, but not bound to LT. I would not move even a brow, if "path" were edited out, but I do not experience its use as innovating terminology, or otherwise tumbling any pillars, but rather as harmlessly using an existing and reasonable association in explaining (1+1)-dimensional spacetime. Purgy ( talk) 08:21, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Using abbreviations which are not explained in the text is the ultimate sign of a writer who is not knowing for whom he/she is writing!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koitus~nlwiki ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Why are all the points on the diagram persistently moving downwards (in conjunction with the Lorentz transformation that appears to be "cycling back and forth"). What kind of acceleration is the observer experiencing? I would assume the acceleration matches the back and forth dilation of the diagram, so I'm not sure why all the spacetime events (which are points that occur at a particular time) are moving downwards. I feel this section needs a little more explanation as to what it's depicting.
I'm not a physicist nor an expert in relativity but I'm sure I would be able to understand a sufficiently good explanation. The rest of the article makes sense to me. Hddharvey ( talk) 00:09, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
The article states "If one imagines each event to be the flashing of a light, then the events that are *within* the past light cone of the observer are the events visible to the observer". This doesn't seem to be quite right. If the event is a flash of light (in a vacuum), I think it will arrive at (be visible to) the observer at the point where the event *crosses* the past light cone boundary. I think that it will not be visible after that, as a flash is by nature instantaneous. If on the other hand the event is a light beginning to shine then the *light* will continue to be visible as the event passes further inside the past light cone, although the event itself (the beginning of the light shining) is still instantaneous and only visible once i.e at the point where it crosses an observer's past light cone boundary. However that is my reading of it... perhaps that is not the intended meaning of the wording. I think it might be helpful if it was reworded to clarify? The section which it concludes is a particularly excellent part of the article, it would be good to maintain the same high standard here too. 2A02:C7E:3525:0:9818:5454:1986:C0A0 ( talk) 12:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)