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If one crefully reads the only paragraph in this article that talks about outside scientology opinion one finds that it is written in a way that disguises its lack of neutrality: out of roughly 1500 characters of this paragraph only 100 deal with non scientology opinion. one sentence of content is actually related to what the paragraph is about, while the remaining 11 sentences talk about other content, not related to Non-Scientologists in any way. i therefore mark this article with the Neutrality Disputed Flag.
This does not even deserve to be called CHURCH..This is nothing but science fiction. It is surprising how many fools follow this.
Some of the order of the sections needs to be brought together for a logical focus. Right now it is somewhat haphazard, with juicy bits pushed out of sequence to the detriment of article integrity.
Also an analysis of the actual point of contention from a NPOV vs is important. See the version with the section (The Roots of Space Opera) that section is informative, logical, and should included.
Excellent article! The title may need some work ... it sounds silly. It comes from a POV that this is remarkable. How does "Space Opera in Scientology doctrine" sound to Scientologists? Is "Opera" normally capitalised? - David Gerard 6 July 2005 22:47 (UTC)
Nice one. I think we can get this up to FAC status in a week if we try hard. Maybe run it past Peer Review as well - David Gerard 7 July 2005 00:51 (UTC)
Chris, this version of the article is even better - a featured article standard already. VWD :-) -- NicholasTurnbull 7 July 2005 00:54 (UTC)
I've just nominated it for Wikipedia:Peer review. Let's see what the horrified masses make of it - David Gerard 8 July 2005 09:53 (UTC)
Cross your fingers. I've nominated it for the front page. -- Anonymous
I've moved a general para on space opera from Xenu to the intro. Could do with some untangling, though - David Gerard 15:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Would Space opera (Scientology) be a better title? Note that Category:Scientology beliefs and practices already includes several examples of common words with "(Scientology)" added to point out that we're talking about the Scientology term - David Gerard 10:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
below was content of Wikipedia:Peer review/Space opera in Scientology doctrine as at 21:51, 18 July 2005 (UTC)]
A new article started by User:ChrisO, and already a masterpiece of understatement. Xenu (already a feature) is just the start of it. I'll probably go through housekeeping (detailed list of references at the end, etc.), but we're very interested in hearing of larger structural problems anyone can see. - David Gerard 8 July 2005 09:49 (UTC)
OK, I'm nominating this one for FAC now. Peer Review has been most helpful. Thank you! - David Gerard 21:49, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
below was content of Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Space opera in Scientology doctrine as at 21:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)]
Another masterpiece of understatement from ChrisO (who wrote about half of Xenu). It's a fairly obscure subject ... but Xenu, which one FAC objection thought would be "too obscure", is now enormously popular in the blogosphere [1] [2] and is quoted in most of the recent press about Tom Cruise's proselytising behaviour (unattributed, but the phrasings are pretty distinctive). I think this has potential for enormous popularity. So it's a good thing it's well-written and has its references, isn't it. It went through peer review just recently, which helped a lot. I now open it to you to tell us what shrubberies (nice ones, mind you) it needs to be a feature. We've just started WikiProject Scientology too, by the way, so expect more of these - David Gerard 22:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I deicided to ask a Scientologiest about some of this stuff and see if he would shed some light on this. I thought what he said was worth repeating here. He asked not to be taken as a sorce but would give his opinion. Other than that he has been a member for over 20 years and says he is about half way thru the lvls. Sorry for the typoes, I don't have all that long to write this.
Q. What is your view on Space Opera and what is it?
A. Space Opera is alot of what you would see in Sci Fi movies. Space ships, intergactic stuff, lasers and aliens. As for my view, well you asked about it with regard to Scientology? (Yes) It is something that its founder comments on - LRH. Most people have no idea why it would be apart of a religion. Thats understandable, it is out there. It comes from Auditing. It comes up WHILE auditing. Most Scientolgists have no idea what its about. But they inevitably run into it. Just about every one has at some point been apart of something like Space Opera at some point on their Whole Track (Memories that predate this life) and so it sooner or later comes up. LRH talks about it, mainly so that Auditors know what to expect. My view of it? I have run into it,... alot. ... (can you tell me anything about it?) Its out there stuff. ... (like what?...) Its rather personal realy. Lots of all the stuff you think of when you say "Sci Fi". But you should get auditing for yourself, then you can have lots of your own memories.
Q. How do you know if you realy remember anything?
A. That is a question that can get you into trouble realy fast. Who has the right to tell you if what you remember is real or not? No matter how they were gotten it is up to the person to sort out for themselves. But little things can help. I once saw a movie with space ships wizzing by. Then went and drew up the scamatics for an ion engene. I had never studied a thing before that. Then 6 years later I saw a Popular Science Mag with an alost mirror image of what I drew. They were not the exact same but there was no doubt they looked alike, the same machine with simular wording and everything. And that is with no study of any rocket engenes of any kind.
Q. I have herd of talk of a guy by the name of Xenu, in something that was to have happened 75 million years ago. I am told it is importiant in Scientology. What can you tell me about it?
A. Who? Never heard of him. LRH has said that there is are plenty of tramatic moments in the lives of thatens over the course of their existance. Some are ones people have in common. LRH said that talk of this stuff will just be problomatic. The insident he is talking about is one such moment. But it is taken up in one of the more advanced lvls. It was for Scientologists. It was simply a major problem that can up as blocking the road to freedom for Scientologists at that lvl. He talked about it in a lecture called RJ 67. I by no means would try to quote what he said but it had the jist of: It has a powerful effect on people but is simply out of reach for anyone lower on the Bridge (the lvls of Scientology) So much so that it would never even come up. Any effort of address it by Scientologists before they are ready is just trouble waiting to happen. So LRH never made it avalible to anyone but those he thought were ready to address it. If you see anything on it, realize that it is not LRH you are seeing. When LRH refered to it going public as "trouble" well... don't forget it is completely out of context, only quoted by people that -openly violating Church policy- are out to do just that, cause trouble. So what LRH said is drawned in context errors, incorrect assosation with other ideas only some of which are church related and all of which are out of context. The bottom line is that you will never know what he ment until you do what he says and get upto handling it the way he says. He ment it no other way, and he wrote it!
Q. I have seen some figures of the history of the universe where LRH has given some big figures! What is that about? Do you realy beleive its that old?
A. (he laughs) How big were those figures? (Something like 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,... alot! but I have also seen others) Others? Yes, he (LRH) has had some fun with that one. The most common one he uses is 76 trillion I think. But it is not real, its just a big fugure to "wow" ppl. One problem, from what I got, was that it didn't just start all at once. So giving you any exact figure would be open to problems. 76 trillion would be a figure that would say "at this point it looks like the universe we know today" but that is not LRH, that is just my example. Some scientiests say the universe is like 13 billion or something like that. Well.. what are they looking at? Perhaps that part is only 13 billion years old.
Q. Do Scientologiests talk about Space Opeara alot? Like to each other?
A. No. There are little things like hints but its just a fast route to trouble. Like I said many Scientologiests have yet to encounter enough to give them much to work with of their own. Often it only serves to to confuse people that have yet to get control of their own time tracks (past life memories). At some point, I imagine, if you were to get auditing you would likely have to striaten out something that I have said and I have not said much. If you can then imagine what it is like for people that jaber all day about it then you can guess that they could easily end up saying "I was a ruler of Egypt" only because his own pictures (memories)are mashed with some other guy's. And this can be a big problem to him and he can end up running around telling everybody, who in turn, ends up running around themselves saying, "I ruled Egypt". And that gives the hole subject a bad name. Later in auditing our first victum can end up wasting time pulling all this apart only to find out that he saw the Pharaoh for only a moment and on only on 1 occasion. But for something so simple it can cause alot of trouble! Scientologiests higher up (in lvls) can work it out much easier but there are other problems that can effect them too. So we all stear clear of that.
There was more but I think this is enough. Hope it helps.
Just after the FA request was closed, Dave above added:
- David Gerard 14:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Image is on the Main page but doesn't show on the Article page. hydnjo talk 02:29, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
There was a problem with the image wiki-format. I have corrected it. Autopilots 02:46, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
Now it's on the article page and not the main page. RSpeer 06:20, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
User:Raul654 believes that there is a problem with the image servers. Hopefully, it will be resolved soon. Autopilots 06:48, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
After my thoughtless deletion which was reverted the image still does not appear (at least for me) either on the article page or on the main page. Lucifer(sc) 15:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Gotta say, this is too strange for even the kookiest kook. - 211.30.181.143 02:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
If Scientology wasn't such a pernicious cult, and the logic behind the stories (or would they be myths since it's ostensibly religious) wasn't so silly and nonsensical, I'd say they have one of the most interesting and coolest religious histories of any other religion. Still it's sad that people actually spend their life savings (I heard it's the $500k level this is taught at?) to hear stories they could go pick up at a book store for $10, and if it makes the story more fun to actually believe it's true, just use L.R. Hubbard's reasoning: I mean it's much easier and makes just as much sense to say that a good non-scientology affiliated $10 Space Opera genre book is an unconcious manifestation of true events than having to hear Hubbard's 3rd rate sci-fi style story for $500k and believing it's true. Maybe it's just easier to believe in something you invested half a million dollars in. -- Brentt 06:42, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I am so glad this article was featured. I might have missed it otherwise. It shows just how impressive the unvarnished facts can be -- much more effective than any argument against them. And, even more important, it shows how the beliefs of any religion look to a non-believer. Compare the beliefs of Scientology, for example, to the story about the big boat with all the animals in it. --Anonymous
Fun and tremendously informative, both as a discussion of Scientological views and as a historical slice of what ideas were cropping up in science fiction at the time Hubbard began writing about Scientology. One criticism though -- in the timeline, many of the date ranges are given from longest ago to most recent (which seems to me most logical for a timeline presented in chronological order), but almost half of them are given, and ordered, from most recent to longest ago. I'm reluctant to reorganize these myself as there may be a very good doctrinal reason for the disparity (was time travel involved in any incidents?) ... but I wonder if a more informed author could either make the list more consistent or else explain why the disparity exists? -- 207.216.237.40 05:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh yeah, I fixed it! Now who's the man? I can't hear you, WHO IS THE MAN?! Thank you.
cool-RR.
This article is a shining example of NPOV and is about as good as an article could get. Much thanks to the writers. Paul 19:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I don’t know if it’s openly known but it would be great to have an article about how the money flows in the church of scientology. To answer questions along this line:
I am guessing with the amount of money they deal with it should not be to difficult to find out investments, who the people involved at the upper level are. Basically who is on top of scientology, a group of individuals? A family? A single person? Who are they and a little bit about them.
This sentence is in the Scientology and science fiction section:
"Many science-fictional references can be found in Hubbard's Scientology-related works. Scientologists could find themselves living in "robot bodies" in past lives, being killed by "zap guns", living aboard spaceships or flying "space wagons" capable of travelling "a trillion light years per day". ("The Helatrobus Implants") "
What is the parenthetical reference at the end supposed to mean? It seems like it might be an orphan from some past edit, as it doesn't seem to connect at all to either the sentence before or after, nor does it look like a citation... . Blurble 15:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The sentence: "It forms a major element of the beliefs of Scientology." isn't cited. According to WP:CITE#When_there_is_a_factual_dispute I have removed the factually disputed information to this discussion page for discussion and citing. According to the article: "space opera was the term used by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard to describe extraterrestrial civilizations and alien interventions." Which is fine, but to state that it forms a major element of the beliefs of scientology is False. I am disputing that second statement which appears as the first sentence of this subsection. By cutting it from the article here I am stating there is no published source of information which says: "Space opera is a major element of the beliefs of Scientology." Terryeo 20:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
It's the obvious source of Hubbard's usage, which may not be obvious to many people, so please put the link back. AnonMoos 20:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo removed the reference to the "Assists" lecture. This lecture is widely available and the Church of Scientology even drug Erlich into court and admitted that the lecture exists. I have a copy of the lecture, as do many other people. There are even many places on the Internet where you can download portions (including the entirety) of these lectures. One such location that provides the portions of the Assists lecture where L. Ron Hubbard says, "The man on the Cross. There was no Christ. But the man on the cross is shown as Everyman." and "The entirety of Roman Catholicism - the devil, all of this sort of thing - that is all part of R6." is at [ [8]] Just because the Church of Scientology was unable to keep the information confidential, doesn't mean it can't be reported on here. Vivaldi 08:49, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone obviously did a great deal of original research to put this section together. They deserve a lot of credit for their efforts. I hope they will provide the citations so the reader can verify these statements. I am familiar with a couple of the terms, such as Marcab Conferation and Fifth Invader Force, but most of these incidents are a complete mystery to me. Where did they come from? dcottle561 17:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this for real? It's a bunch of crock to me.
Don't delete the discussion. It is a part of the page record, and clears up a major query that users may have about this article, i.e. its accuracy. If you delete this discussion, more people are bound to add queries along the lines of "is this a joke"? We have established that it is not (i.e that some Scientologists do actually believe this), and I for one am not fond of answering the same question numerous times. Yes, there's a lot of bickering here between certain users, but that doesn't stop the discussion from being both valid and valuable. Walton monarchist89 10:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The image caption notes that "Hubbard said that Xenu's victims were transported in interstellar space planes which looked exactly like Douglas DC-8s." But this fact isn't mentioned at all in the body of the article. I'd like to see a citation for the DC-8 thing. Patiwat 09:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Most of the titillating quotes about alien civilizations come from transcripts of Hubbard's lectures. These lectures were not always necessarily Scientology-related, and were often simply about whatever fanciful stuff popped into his head. Is it wacky and kooky? Of course. And if you listen to the recordings, the audience is laughing good-naturedly about it and so is Hubbard. Was it ever intended, then or now, to be absolute Scientology doctrine he was spouting? Absolutely not, and there's no proof otherwise. Attacking Scientology today by way of holding it literally accountable for goofy jokes, stories and allegories told in 1950's/1960's Hubbard lectures is not only wrong, it's a very desperate kind of wrongness. This article's entire premise is based on the false assumption that "if Hubbard joked about it in a lecture in 1956, then it's serious core Scientology doctrine". Highfructosecornsyrup 16:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Justanother 17:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Comment - The article is NOT neutral. It gives inordinate emphasis to casual remarks by Hubbard as being part of Scientology doctrine. Arslycus is a good example; that was a casual remark in the PDC lecture made to illustrate a point (I actually listened to that very lecture not long ago while on a long drive). It is not a part of Scientology. Hubbard was always careful, IMO, to distinquish between his opinion or his self-admitted tendency to act the raconteur and what he considered to be the technology of Scientology. Additionally; he specifically excluded space opera (as a general topic) from Scientology; lumping it in, along with lots of other "unprovables", to what he termed " para-Scientology"; meaning that most Scientologists have VERY little intersection with space opera and it is by no means a core belief (the core belief being that you are an immortal spiritual being inhabiting a body and using a mind and that you can improve your state of being, by-and-large, using very concrete techniques that have nothing to do with space opera). The only actual alleged example of space opera that I know of that has any relevance to Scientology is the claim by ex-Scientologists that OT 3 includes the Xenu incident. But if that were the entirety of the article, I guess it would not be as "interesting" (although it might be a lot more accurate). Interestingly, I just looked again at the article and see that critics like to pooh-pooh Scientologist's protestations that LRH's far-out stories, anecdotes, and jokes are not a part of mainstream Scientology. So I guess we are "damned if we do and damned if we don't". Anyway, the article needs a lot of work to bring it to a neutral state. -- Justanother 16:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The article states: "The following descriptions of space opera incidents are seen as nonfiction in the beliefs of Scientology", and then justifies this with a link to http://www.scientology.org/gloss.htm#SPACEOPERA, which does say that there is such a thing as space opera and that it "It is not fiction", but what it doesn't say is specifically that it applies to the jokes and stories told in Hubbard's lectures, which are gleefully recounted in the article and presented as "Scientology doctrine". It's not the same thing. The Scientology glossary link used as a reference is non-specific, so it cannot be used to back up this article's highly specific and outrageously misleading claims. Highfructosecornsyrup 16:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
A recent investigation, however, into the backgrounds and case condition of small handful of people who were joking about their posts and those around them showed a somewhat more sinister scene.
My point is that this policy did not apply to Hubbard especially as it was written in 1977, after most of his taped lectures that might contain the subject material. The point Tilman makes is one that deserves an answer so there it is. While the policy might seem harsh, I can also see the benefit of not making sarcastic remarks about your job or fellow workers and such restraint is now the norm in the workplace. -- Justanother 19:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)In some cultural areas, wit and humor are looked upon as a healthy release. However, in the case of orgs, this was not found to be the case. Intentional destruction of the org or fellow staff members was the direct purpose.
Given that there is no evidence, either in the article or anywhere else, that most of the specific incidents and subjects in this article are "Scientology doctrine" in any sense of the word, this article is based on an extremely faulty and POV-driven premise. Therefore, it seems clear that we must either:
Highfructosecornsyrup 19:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Left: Since we are talking Scientology "doctrine" then doctrinal advices as to the nature of this material take precedence, not critics' opinions. It is up to the Scientologists here to find and present those advices. Doctrinal materials like the definition and nature of "para-Scientology" from the Tech. Dict. and sources referenced therein along with LRH's own disclaimers as to the nature of this matter should be presented early on; the same PDC tape that mentions Arslycus makes the distinction and it appears in other tapes. Then we can discuss the notability of including every wacky thing he ever said. So first, HFCS, I would recommend that you find a few references that speak to the misc. stuff that is NOT claimed by anyone with real familiarity with the subject (and I include "apostates" in the same category as Scientologists in this case); NOT claimed to be part of the tech. That obviously does not apply to Xenu as knowledgable apostates claim he is and the CoS has taken action that tend to validate that. So first get some refs; then divide the material in the article into "tech" and "wacky comments"; finally discuss the notability of any or all of it. -- Justanother 05:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
(conflict and left) You are not suggesting that the incidents in HYLBTL are "doctrine" are you? The concept of past lives is doctrine, those are just stuff that people came up with in session. No one says that they are stories if by stories you mean made-up stories. They were subjectively true for the person that recounted them but they are not doctrine. Just like LRH's far-out off-the-cuff examples were subjectively true for him but only for him. -- Justanother 02:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'll tell you: This is doctrine, and it has nothing to do with the Obscene Dog Incident or the anonymous past life memories in HYLBTL. You will never, never, ever, ever find reliable verifiable sources that state that these things are "Scientology doctrine", and yet that's precisely what this article is presenting. Talk about original research and conspiracy theory! Highfructosecornsyrup 03:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
It's odd that the editors doing all the knee-jerk reverting are also NOT discussing their edits on the talk page and NOT giving any reasons for why they think the Obscene Dog Incident is "Scientology doctrine". Android Cat has made some small effort, but pointing out that the subject of "Past Lives" may or may not be Scientology doctrine has nothing to do with whether or not an anonymous person's alleged past-life memories of being on another planet are. And that's what's being reverted. No one is going to find verifiable non-conspiracy-kook sources that state that these things are "Scientology doctrine". If these editors continue to blindly revert and refuse to even enter a discussion as to what constitutes "Scientology doctrine", I think we'll have to take this to mediation and let some unbiased editors weigh in on this. Highfructosecornsyrup 18:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Be bold in contributions, but not in destructions. Editing is a collaborative effort, so editing boldly should not be confused with reverting boldly. This only leads to edit wars. Use the talk page instead. A simple guideline for simple reverting is that it works best for, and is really intended as, a tool against CLEAR vandalism. So save it for that! In cases other than vandalism, somebody is trying to be constructive. Even if they are doing it badly, and even if they are completely and foolishly wrong, there are usually more polite and constructive ways to deal with them than simply returning the article back to the pristine way (you think) it should remain. So, here's the time to think of better solutions.
I understand that BOLD is guidance not policy but "It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow."If you're tempted to revert for anything but clear vandalism, take a deep breath; it may be better to discuss it on the talk page or build on the previous edit with a new edit of your own. It may be even better to simply do nothing for twenty-four hours while you cool down. Reverting isn't always collaborative editing, but often a cheap shortcut. (And, it doesn't help that you're limited in space for your revert "edit summary" comment. Over-succinctness may lead to rude-sounding stuff.) Be careful if a revert touches off a revert war. If a revert war begins, then collaboration is not working, and editing the article boldly by reverting is not collaboration. Instead it attempts to force one editor's will on the other editors, which will never work. Such edits will not survive. The "correctness" or "truthfulness" of the edit is irrelevant at this point (See: BOLD, revert, discuss cycle).
After reflection this seems a bit of a "no-brainer". "Space opera" is non-encyclopedic as a title. It does not mean "Extraterrestrial Beliefs" to the casual reader or, actually to any non-Scientologist, it means science fiction. But Scientologists define it as non-fiction so the term is inherently confusing as a title. The "space opera" terminology can be explained in the text but let us have a non-ambiguous title, Extraterrestrial beliefs in Scientology. Please give me your thoughts. -- Justanother 19:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Don't know if is middle ground but the simple truth is what I have already stated and restated ad nauseum. Past lives, yes doctrine. A few important ET incidents, i.e. those actually in books (History of Man, HCOBs, etc.) stating "This is what you run" or alledgedly on OT levels (but only those claimed as such by OT and credible ex-scios), yes doctrine. Other incidents that came up in sessions or stray remarks by Hubbard on tapes, not doctrine. Also change name due to its ambiguity of meaning, scio vs. non-scio. -- Justanother 12:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
RH, so you think it is appropriate, in this instance, to title an article with an ambiguous term that has a general population meaning different from the meaning used in the article? General population meaning = pulp fiction; scientology meaning = valid material that might come up in a session. I just want to be sure that I have your position on that issue straight because that is the crux of my argument. -- Justanother 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I will propose "Space opera in Scientology teachings" as a middle ground. It is undeniable that Scientology OT Levels and Hubbard's teachings and lectures about outer space and past lives are a part of what Scientology teaches to its members that take upper level courses and listen to Hubbard's lectures. I'm open to discussing the issue of whether its "doctrine", but I don't believe that it is justifiable to discount all of Hubbard's teachings about Space Opera to be fanciful silly stories. Scientology says itself that Space Opera is NOT FICTION. Vivaldi ( talk) 07:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Let me be honest: I don't actually have very strong feelings on what title we use for this article. What I do have strong feelings about is anyone's attempt to exploit the exact wording of the title -- even if it can be argued that that wording is somehow inexact or incorrect -- to try and change the article's subject. That is the tail wagging the dog. You want the article's title to accurately and precisely describe the contents? Excellent; I'm right there with you. You want the article's title to be interpreted as a very precise description of what the contents should be, and as a justification for slicing out whatever does not match that description? Don't bother trying to cite WP:BOLD to cover that action, because it won't.
I have some thoughts for possible title changes but I will have to post those later. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I kinda thought an encyclopedic article on the subject might be the point. My bad.
In response; how many times do I have to tell you that I have no problem listening to "even those who are ex-Scientologists" and I present to you that if you (that means you, Anteaus Feldspar) have not personally (as in you) listened to the ENTIRE tape (as in the whole thing) where the Arslycus incident is mentioned, for instance, then you have zero idea of where it fits in Scientology "doctrine" and I defy you to find me an RS that says that incident is Scientology doctrine. I don't need an RS to pull; you need an RS to keep it and it is my good faith and willingness to work within the process and nothing more that prevents me from pulling unsourced speculation as to what is doctrine and what is not.
And do I think that I am more qualified than you to "decide what makes the cut and what doesn't"? All due respect, but HELL YES. And I suspect that there are many here that may agree. And not for any fault on your part (this is not WP:NPA) but for the fact that I have much more experience with both sides of the issue. And we are talking about what is Scientology doctrine here or how does ET fit into Scientology so my experience counts for a lot. If we were explaining what is the exact criticisms of Scientology and how do critics feel about Scientology then I would likely default to you. Your view is one-sided and it happens to be the side that does not have the answer to this question. Sorry, but it does not.
Oh, and of course you realize that the R2-45 point is a red herring (or a straw man, take your pick of logical fallacy, or take both). I would never say that referencing R2-45 in the context of an Ethics Order is a joke; I would instead find it appalling. I have seen that Ethics Order (only on the internet, I mean, just like you) and wish that I could find it on an RS instead of a critic site but I will take it with a "grain of salt" as possibly true (or possibly fabricated, I really don't know). -- Justanother 22:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I am removing the improper citation tag because the person who added it has not explained specifically what is incorrectly cited or misinterpreted. If you want to mention specific passages where the cited text does not support the conclusions in the article then please do so here. I don't believe the current quibble over "doctrine" vs. "Hubbard and Scientology teachings" is worthy of tagging the article with this tag. And since CoS says specifically that Space Opera is NOT FICTION, it is silly to proclaim Hubbard's lectures about whole time track incidents are merely funny stories (at least not without a citation from a RS). Vivaldi ( talk) 07:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's start with the fact that the "justification" for calling this all doctrine is that RTC said all is scripture. Not doctrine. So let's start with that bit of truth. If we want to call everything LRH ever said scripture then fine; that is what RTC calls it. You have no RS that says much of this stuff is "doctrine". And, no, the terms are not identical. If we have a consensus I will fix the redirects. -- Justanother 16:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
When this page was moved, the old FAC wasn't correctly archived, so I'm putting it here for whomever wants to fix the template at the top of the talk page - I fixed the FAR.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Space opera in Scientology doctrine
I'd redirect it to scripture, but that would create a mess if you all decide to change the name again. Sandy ( Talk) 01:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Sandy ( Talk) 01:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I dicided to ask a Scientologiest about some of this stuff and see if he would shed some light on this. I thought what he said was worth repeating here. He asked not to be taken as a sorce but would give his opinion. Other than that he has been a member for over 20 years and says he is about half way thru the lvls.
Q. What is your view on Space Opera and what is it?
A. Space Opera is alot of what you would see in Sci Fi movies. Space ships, intergactic stuff, Lasers and aliens. As for my view, well you asked about it with regard to Scientology? (Yes) It is something that its founder comments on - LRH. Most people have no idea why it would be apart of a religion. Thats understandable, it is out there. It comes from Auditing. It comes up WHILE auditing. Most Scientolgists have no idea what its about. But they inevitably run into it. Just about every one has at some point been apart of something like Space Opera at some point on their Whole Track (Memories that predate this life) and so it sooner or later comes up. LRH talks about it, mainly so that Auditors know what to expect. My view of it? I have run into it,... alot. ... (can you tell me anything about it?) Its out there stuff. ... (like what?...) Its rather personal realy. Lots of all the stuff you think of when you say "Sci Fi". But you should get auditing for yourself, then you can have lots of your own memories.
Q. How do you know if you realy remember anything?
A. That is a question that can get you into trouble realy fast. Who has the right to tell you if what you remember is real or not? No matter how they were gotten it is up to the person to sort out for themselves. But little things can help. I once saw a movie with space ships wizzing by. Then went and drew up the scamatics for an ion engene. I had never studied a thing before that. Then 6 years later I saw a Popular Science Mag with an alost mirror image of what I drew. They were not the exact same but there was no doubt they looked light the same machine with simular wording and everything. And that is with no study of any rockets engines of any kind.
Q. I have herd of talk of a guy by the name of Xenu, in something that was to have happened 75 million years ago. I am told it is importiant in Scientology. What can you tell me about it?
A. Who? Never heard of him. LRH has said that there is are plenty of tramatic moments in the lives of thatens over the course of their existance. Some are ones people have in common. LRH said that talk of this stuff will just be problomatic. The insident he is talking about is one such moment. But it is taken up in one of the more advanced lvls. It was for Scientologists that have gotten thru questions like "Does Scientology work?" It was simply a major problem that can up as blocking the road to freedom for Scientologists at that lvl. He talked about it in a lecture called RJ 67. I by no means would try to quote what he said but it had the jist of: It has a powerful effect on people but is simply out of reach for anyone lower on the Bridge (the lvls of Scientology) So much so that it would never even come up. Any effort of address it by Scientologists before they are ready is just trouble waiting to happen. So LRH never made it avalible to anyone but those he thought were ready to address it. If you see anything on it, realize that it is not LRH you are seeing. When LRH refered to it going public as "trouble" well... it would be completely out of context, only quoted by people that -openly violating Church policy- are out to do just that, cause trouble. So what LRH said is drawned in context errors, incorrect assosetion with other ideas only some of which are church related and all of which are out of context. The bottom line is that you will never know what he ment until you do what he says and get upto handling it the way he says. He ment it no other way and he wrote it.
Q. I have seen some figures of the history of the universe where LRH has given some big figures! What is that about? Do you realy beleive its that old?
A. (he laughs) How big were those figures? (Something like 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,... alot! but I have also seen others) Others? Yes, he (LRH) has had some fun with that one. The most common one he uses is 76 trillion I think. But it is not real, its just a big fugure to "wow" ppl. One problem, from what I got, was that it didn't just start all at once. So giving you any exact figure would be open to problems. 76 trillion would be a figure that would say "at this point it looks like the universe we know today" but that is not LRH, that is just my example. Some scientiests say the universe is like 13 billion or something like that. Well.. what are they looking at? Perhaps that part is only 13 billion years old.
Q. Do Scientologiests talk about Space Opeara alot? Like to each other?
A. No. There are little things like hints but its just a fast route to trouble. Like I said many Scientologiests have yet to encounter enough to give them much to work with of their own. Often it only serves to to confuse people that have yet to get control of their own time tracks (past life memories). At some point, I imagine, if you were to get auditing you would likely have to striaten out something that I have said and I have not said much. If you can then imagine what it is like for people that jaber all day about it then you can guess that they could easily end up saying "I was a ruler of Egypt" only because his own pictures (memories)are mashed with some other guy's. And this can be a big problem to him and he can end up running around telling everybody, who in turn, ends up running around themselves saying, "I ruled Egypt". And that gives the hole subject a bad name. Later in auditing our first victum can end up wasting time pulling all this apart only to find out that he saw the Pharaoh for only a moment and on only on 1 occasion. But for something so simple it can cause alot of trouble! Scientologiests higher up (in lvls) can work it out much easier but there are other problems that can effect them too. So we all stear clear of that.
There was more but I think this is enough. Hope it helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.95.117 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, January 6, 2007 (UTC)
Just passing through, and thought I would just mention that the review linked at the top of the page lists many problems, the italicized quotes among them. I'm going to go through and eliminate these, since they're an eyesore, but I've no interest in long-term editing of this article. As a suggestion to the interested parties, perhaps you should start with the things that everyone can agree on: there are no ethics about italics. NPOV can wait until after the article's other problems have been addressed. Cheers,
Archaeo
23:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
honestly, is this actually real? I'm sorry but some vanadalism seems more realistic than this. I just want to make sure that everything is sourced properly. Rugz 01:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is the opening sentence of the WP article Space opera: "Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic adventure, and larger-than-life characters often set against vast exotic settings." Should this information be included in this article? As it is "space opera" outside of Scientology is just said to be a term related to science fiction. Thanks. Steve Dufour 12:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Scientologists are not attempting to be deceitful. Space opera citations really are mostly incidental. The main focus of scientology is given in the title of a hubbard book; namely... The Creation of Human Ability.
Put 2+2 together, here. Maby 100 pages, out ovf volumes, on space opera. Yet hubbard emphasises pragmatism as the emphasis of scientology over and over. It's a matter of comparative volume. Scientologists spend hours apon hours learning and practicing auditing. The sole purpose of a class 4 org is to produce class 4 auditers. The tech is the point. The origonal Title of History of Man was What to Audit, to emphasise the relation of past lives to auditing.
Scientology is not the only religion to have past lives. There is a book supposedly by Buddha, called Jakkata, or Birth Stories, that was something of a best seller in the ancient world. It relates the supposed past lives of Guatama Buddha. So, even sensationalism of past live incidents is not new, but all spiritual ideas must have sounded strange when they were new.
That having been sayd. Hubbard was simply wrong about some stuff, and I'm not sure why he even included alot of stuff. Theres really not much that can be sayd, becouse inside a social mileu, really is difficult to relate to outsiders. I try, but citing refs will be difficult. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thaddeus Slamp ( talk • contribs) 05:27, April 3, 2007 (GMT).
What about it, indeed? I think I know what your driving @, but perhaps you should think about such (what your driving @). Meanwhile, go ahead and tell me. I might be wrong in my guess. Thaddeus Slamp 16:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
If one crefully reads the only paragraph in this article that talks about outside scientology opinion one finds that it is written in a way that disguises its lack of neutrality: out of roughly 1500 characters of this paragraph only 100 deal with non scientology opinion. one sentence of content is actually related to what the paragraph is about, while the remaining 11 sentences talk about other content, not related to Non-Scientologists in any way. i therefore mark this article with the Neutrality Disputed Flag.
This does not even deserve to be called CHURCH..This is nothing but science fiction. It is surprising how many fools follow this.
Some of the order of the sections needs to be brought together for a logical focus. Right now it is somewhat haphazard, with juicy bits pushed out of sequence to the detriment of article integrity.
Also an analysis of the actual point of contention from a NPOV vs is important. See the version with the section (The Roots of Space Opera) that section is informative, logical, and should included.
Excellent article! The title may need some work ... it sounds silly. It comes from a POV that this is remarkable. How does "Space Opera in Scientology doctrine" sound to Scientologists? Is "Opera" normally capitalised? - David Gerard 6 July 2005 22:47 (UTC)
Nice one. I think we can get this up to FAC status in a week if we try hard. Maybe run it past Peer Review as well - David Gerard 7 July 2005 00:51 (UTC)
Chris, this version of the article is even better - a featured article standard already. VWD :-) -- NicholasTurnbull 7 July 2005 00:54 (UTC)
I've just nominated it for Wikipedia:Peer review. Let's see what the horrified masses make of it - David Gerard 8 July 2005 09:53 (UTC)
Cross your fingers. I've nominated it for the front page. -- Anonymous
I've moved a general para on space opera from Xenu to the intro. Could do with some untangling, though - David Gerard 15:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Would Space opera (Scientology) be a better title? Note that Category:Scientology beliefs and practices already includes several examples of common words with "(Scientology)" added to point out that we're talking about the Scientology term - David Gerard 10:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
below was content of Wikipedia:Peer review/Space opera in Scientology doctrine as at 21:51, 18 July 2005 (UTC)]
A new article started by User:ChrisO, and already a masterpiece of understatement. Xenu (already a feature) is just the start of it. I'll probably go through housekeeping (detailed list of references at the end, etc.), but we're very interested in hearing of larger structural problems anyone can see. - David Gerard 8 July 2005 09:49 (UTC)
OK, I'm nominating this one for FAC now. Peer Review has been most helpful. Thank you! - David Gerard 21:49, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
below was content of Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Space opera in Scientology doctrine as at 21:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)]
Another masterpiece of understatement from ChrisO (who wrote about half of Xenu). It's a fairly obscure subject ... but Xenu, which one FAC objection thought would be "too obscure", is now enormously popular in the blogosphere [1] [2] and is quoted in most of the recent press about Tom Cruise's proselytising behaviour (unattributed, but the phrasings are pretty distinctive). I think this has potential for enormous popularity. So it's a good thing it's well-written and has its references, isn't it. It went through peer review just recently, which helped a lot. I now open it to you to tell us what shrubberies (nice ones, mind you) it needs to be a feature. We've just started WikiProject Scientology too, by the way, so expect more of these - David Gerard 22:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I deicided to ask a Scientologiest about some of this stuff and see if he would shed some light on this. I thought what he said was worth repeating here. He asked not to be taken as a sorce but would give his opinion. Other than that he has been a member for over 20 years and says he is about half way thru the lvls. Sorry for the typoes, I don't have all that long to write this.
Q. What is your view on Space Opera and what is it?
A. Space Opera is alot of what you would see in Sci Fi movies. Space ships, intergactic stuff, lasers and aliens. As for my view, well you asked about it with regard to Scientology? (Yes) It is something that its founder comments on - LRH. Most people have no idea why it would be apart of a religion. Thats understandable, it is out there. It comes from Auditing. It comes up WHILE auditing. Most Scientolgists have no idea what its about. But they inevitably run into it. Just about every one has at some point been apart of something like Space Opera at some point on their Whole Track (Memories that predate this life) and so it sooner or later comes up. LRH talks about it, mainly so that Auditors know what to expect. My view of it? I have run into it,... alot. ... (can you tell me anything about it?) Its out there stuff. ... (like what?...) Its rather personal realy. Lots of all the stuff you think of when you say "Sci Fi". But you should get auditing for yourself, then you can have lots of your own memories.
Q. How do you know if you realy remember anything?
A. That is a question that can get you into trouble realy fast. Who has the right to tell you if what you remember is real or not? No matter how they were gotten it is up to the person to sort out for themselves. But little things can help. I once saw a movie with space ships wizzing by. Then went and drew up the scamatics for an ion engene. I had never studied a thing before that. Then 6 years later I saw a Popular Science Mag with an alost mirror image of what I drew. They were not the exact same but there was no doubt they looked alike, the same machine with simular wording and everything. And that is with no study of any rocket engenes of any kind.
Q. I have herd of talk of a guy by the name of Xenu, in something that was to have happened 75 million years ago. I am told it is importiant in Scientology. What can you tell me about it?
A. Who? Never heard of him. LRH has said that there is are plenty of tramatic moments in the lives of thatens over the course of their existance. Some are ones people have in common. LRH said that talk of this stuff will just be problomatic. The insident he is talking about is one such moment. But it is taken up in one of the more advanced lvls. It was for Scientologists. It was simply a major problem that can up as blocking the road to freedom for Scientologists at that lvl. He talked about it in a lecture called RJ 67. I by no means would try to quote what he said but it had the jist of: It has a powerful effect on people but is simply out of reach for anyone lower on the Bridge (the lvls of Scientology) So much so that it would never even come up. Any effort of address it by Scientologists before they are ready is just trouble waiting to happen. So LRH never made it avalible to anyone but those he thought were ready to address it. If you see anything on it, realize that it is not LRH you are seeing. When LRH refered to it going public as "trouble" well... don't forget it is completely out of context, only quoted by people that -openly violating Church policy- are out to do just that, cause trouble. So what LRH said is drawned in context errors, incorrect assosation with other ideas only some of which are church related and all of which are out of context. The bottom line is that you will never know what he ment until you do what he says and get upto handling it the way he says. He ment it no other way, and he wrote it!
Q. I have seen some figures of the history of the universe where LRH has given some big figures! What is that about? Do you realy beleive its that old?
A. (he laughs) How big were those figures? (Something like 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,... alot! but I have also seen others) Others? Yes, he (LRH) has had some fun with that one. The most common one he uses is 76 trillion I think. But it is not real, its just a big fugure to "wow" ppl. One problem, from what I got, was that it didn't just start all at once. So giving you any exact figure would be open to problems. 76 trillion would be a figure that would say "at this point it looks like the universe we know today" but that is not LRH, that is just my example. Some scientiests say the universe is like 13 billion or something like that. Well.. what are they looking at? Perhaps that part is only 13 billion years old.
Q. Do Scientologiests talk about Space Opeara alot? Like to each other?
A. No. There are little things like hints but its just a fast route to trouble. Like I said many Scientologiests have yet to encounter enough to give them much to work with of their own. Often it only serves to to confuse people that have yet to get control of their own time tracks (past life memories). At some point, I imagine, if you were to get auditing you would likely have to striaten out something that I have said and I have not said much. If you can then imagine what it is like for people that jaber all day about it then you can guess that they could easily end up saying "I was a ruler of Egypt" only because his own pictures (memories)are mashed with some other guy's. And this can be a big problem to him and he can end up running around telling everybody, who in turn, ends up running around themselves saying, "I ruled Egypt". And that gives the hole subject a bad name. Later in auditing our first victum can end up wasting time pulling all this apart only to find out that he saw the Pharaoh for only a moment and on only on 1 occasion. But for something so simple it can cause alot of trouble! Scientologiests higher up (in lvls) can work it out much easier but there are other problems that can effect them too. So we all stear clear of that.
There was more but I think this is enough. Hope it helps.
Just after the FA request was closed, Dave above added:
- David Gerard 14:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Image is on the Main page but doesn't show on the Article page. hydnjo talk 02:29, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
There was a problem with the image wiki-format. I have corrected it. Autopilots 02:46, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
Now it's on the article page and not the main page. RSpeer 06:20, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
User:Raul654 believes that there is a problem with the image servers. Hopefully, it will be resolved soon. Autopilots 06:48, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
After my thoughtless deletion which was reverted the image still does not appear (at least for me) either on the article page or on the main page. Lucifer(sc) 15:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Gotta say, this is too strange for even the kookiest kook. - 211.30.181.143 02:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
If Scientology wasn't such a pernicious cult, and the logic behind the stories (or would they be myths since it's ostensibly religious) wasn't so silly and nonsensical, I'd say they have one of the most interesting and coolest religious histories of any other religion. Still it's sad that people actually spend their life savings (I heard it's the $500k level this is taught at?) to hear stories they could go pick up at a book store for $10, and if it makes the story more fun to actually believe it's true, just use L.R. Hubbard's reasoning: I mean it's much easier and makes just as much sense to say that a good non-scientology affiliated $10 Space Opera genre book is an unconcious manifestation of true events than having to hear Hubbard's 3rd rate sci-fi style story for $500k and believing it's true. Maybe it's just easier to believe in something you invested half a million dollars in. -- Brentt 06:42, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I am so glad this article was featured. I might have missed it otherwise. It shows just how impressive the unvarnished facts can be -- much more effective than any argument against them. And, even more important, it shows how the beliefs of any religion look to a non-believer. Compare the beliefs of Scientology, for example, to the story about the big boat with all the animals in it. --Anonymous
Fun and tremendously informative, both as a discussion of Scientological views and as a historical slice of what ideas were cropping up in science fiction at the time Hubbard began writing about Scientology. One criticism though -- in the timeline, many of the date ranges are given from longest ago to most recent (which seems to me most logical for a timeline presented in chronological order), but almost half of them are given, and ordered, from most recent to longest ago. I'm reluctant to reorganize these myself as there may be a very good doctrinal reason for the disparity (was time travel involved in any incidents?) ... but I wonder if a more informed author could either make the list more consistent or else explain why the disparity exists? -- 207.216.237.40 05:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh yeah, I fixed it! Now who's the man? I can't hear you, WHO IS THE MAN?! Thank you.
cool-RR.
This article is a shining example of NPOV and is about as good as an article could get. Much thanks to the writers. Paul 19:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I don’t know if it’s openly known but it would be great to have an article about how the money flows in the church of scientology. To answer questions along this line:
I am guessing with the amount of money they deal with it should not be to difficult to find out investments, who the people involved at the upper level are. Basically who is on top of scientology, a group of individuals? A family? A single person? Who are they and a little bit about them.
This sentence is in the Scientology and science fiction section:
"Many science-fictional references can be found in Hubbard's Scientology-related works. Scientologists could find themselves living in "robot bodies" in past lives, being killed by "zap guns", living aboard spaceships or flying "space wagons" capable of travelling "a trillion light years per day". ("The Helatrobus Implants") "
What is the parenthetical reference at the end supposed to mean? It seems like it might be an orphan from some past edit, as it doesn't seem to connect at all to either the sentence before or after, nor does it look like a citation... . Blurble 15:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The sentence: "It forms a major element of the beliefs of Scientology." isn't cited. According to WP:CITE#When_there_is_a_factual_dispute I have removed the factually disputed information to this discussion page for discussion and citing. According to the article: "space opera was the term used by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard to describe extraterrestrial civilizations and alien interventions." Which is fine, but to state that it forms a major element of the beliefs of scientology is False. I am disputing that second statement which appears as the first sentence of this subsection. By cutting it from the article here I am stating there is no published source of information which says: "Space opera is a major element of the beliefs of Scientology." Terryeo 20:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
It's the obvious source of Hubbard's usage, which may not be obvious to many people, so please put the link back. AnonMoos 20:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo removed the reference to the "Assists" lecture. This lecture is widely available and the Church of Scientology even drug Erlich into court and admitted that the lecture exists. I have a copy of the lecture, as do many other people. There are even many places on the Internet where you can download portions (including the entirety) of these lectures. One such location that provides the portions of the Assists lecture where L. Ron Hubbard says, "The man on the Cross. There was no Christ. But the man on the cross is shown as Everyman." and "The entirety of Roman Catholicism - the devil, all of this sort of thing - that is all part of R6." is at [ [8]] Just because the Church of Scientology was unable to keep the information confidential, doesn't mean it can't be reported on here. Vivaldi 08:49, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone obviously did a great deal of original research to put this section together. They deserve a lot of credit for their efforts. I hope they will provide the citations so the reader can verify these statements. I am familiar with a couple of the terms, such as Marcab Conferation and Fifth Invader Force, but most of these incidents are a complete mystery to me. Where did they come from? dcottle561 17:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this for real? It's a bunch of crock to me.
Don't delete the discussion. It is a part of the page record, and clears up a major query that users may have about this article, i.e. its accuracy. If you delete this discussion, more people are bound to add queries along the lines of "is this a joke"? We have established that it is not (i.e that some Scientologists do actually believe this), and I for one am not fond of answering the same question numerous times. Yes, there's a lot of bickering here between certain users, but that doesn't stop the discussion from being both valid and valuable. Walton monarchist89 10:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The image caption notes that "Hubbard said that Xenu's victims were transported in interstellar space planes which looked exactly like Douglas DC-8s." But this fact isn't mentioned at all in the body of the article. I'd like to see a citation for the DC-8 thing. Patiwat 09:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Most of the titillating quotes about alien civilizations come from transcripts of Hubbard's lectures. These lectures were not always necessarily Scientology-related, and were often simply about whatever fanciful stuff popped into his head. Is it wacky and kooky? Of course. And if you listen to the recordings, the audience is laughing good-naturedly about it and so is Hubbard. Was it ever intended, then or now, to be absolute Scientology doctrine he was spouting? Absolutely not, and there's no proof otherwise. Attacking Scientology today by way of holding it literally accountable for goofy jokes, stories and allegories told in 1950's/1960's Hubbard lectures is not only wrong, it's a very desperate kind of wrongness. This article's entire premise is based on the false assumption that "if Hubbard joked about it in a lecture in 1956, then it's serious core Scientology doctrine". Highfructosecornsyrup 16:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Justanother 17:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Comment - The article is NOT neutral. It gives inordinate emphasis to casual remarks by Hubbard as being part of Scientology doctrine. Arslycus is a good example; that was a casual remark in the PDC lecture made to illustrate a point (I actually listened to that very lecture not long ago while on a long drive). It is not a part of Scientology. Hubbard was always careful, IMO, to distinquish between his opinion or his self-admitted tendency to act the raconteur and what he considered to be the technology of Scientology. Additionally; he specifically excluded space opera (as a general topic) from Scientology; lumping it in, along with lots of other "unprovables", to what he termed " para-Scientology"; meaning that most Scientologists have VERY little intersection with space opera and it is by no means a core belief (the core belief being that you are an immortal spiritual being inhabiting a body and using a mind and that you can improve your state of being, by-and-large, using very concrete techniques that have nothing to do with space opera). The only actual alleged example of space opera that I know of that has any relevance to Scientology is the claim by ex-Scientologists that OT 3 includes the Xenu incident. But if that were the entirety of the article, I guess it would not be as "interesting" (although it might be a lot more accurate). Interestingly, I just looked again at the article and see that critics like to pooh-pooh Scientologist's protestations that LRH's far-out stories, anecdotes, and jokes are not a part of mainstream Scientology. So I guess we are "damned if we do and damned if we don't". Anyway, the article needs a lot of work to bring it to a neutral state. -- Justanother 16:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The article states: "The following descriptions of space opera incidents are seen as nonfiction in the beliefs of Scientology", and then justifies this with a link to http://www.scientology.org/gloss.htm#SPACEOPERA, which does say that there is such a thing as space opera and that it "It is not fiction", but what it doesn't say is specifically that it applies to the jokes and stories told in Hubbard's lectures, which are gleefully recounted in the article and presented as "Scientology doctrine". It's not the same thing. The Scientology glossary link used as a reference is non-specific, so it cannot be used to back up this article's highly specific and outrageously misleading claims. Highfructosecornsyrup 16:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
A recent investigation, however, into the backgrounds and case condition of small handful of people who were joking about their posts and those around them showed a somewhat more sinister scene.
My point is that this policy did not apply to Hubbard especially as it was written in 1977, after most of his taped lectures that might contain the subject material. The point Tilman makes is one that deserves an answer so there it is. While the policy might seem harsh, I can also see the benefit of not making sarcastic remarks about your job or fellow workers and such restraint is now the norm in the workplace. -- Justanother 19:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)In some cultural areas, wit and humor are looked upon as a healthy release. However, in the case of orgs, this was not found to be the case. Intentional destruction of the org or fellow staff members was the direct purpose.
Given that there is no evidence, either in the article or anywhere else, that most of the specific incidents and subjects in this article are "Scientology doctrine" in any sense of the word, this article is based on an extremely faulty and POV-driven premise. Therefore, it seems clear that we must either:
Highfructosecornsyrup 19:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Left: Since we are talking Scientology "doctrine" then doctrinal advices as to the nature of this material take precedence, not critics' opinions. It is up to the Scientologists here to find and present those advices. Doctrinal materials like the definition and nature of "para-Scientology" from the Tech. Dict. and sources referenced therein along with LRH's own disclaimers as to the nature of this matter should be presented early on; the same PDC tape that mentions Arslycus makes the distinction and it appears in other tapes. Then we can discuss the notability of including every wacky thing he ever said. So first, HFCS, I would recommend that you find a few references that speak to the misc. stuff that is NOT claimed by anyone with real familiarity with the subject (and I include "apostates" in the same category as Scientologists in this case); NOT claimed to be part of the tech. That obviously does not apply to Xenu as knowledgable apostates claim he is and the CoS has taken action that tend to validate that. So first get some refs; then divide the material in the article into "tech" and "wacky comments"; finally discuss the notability of any or all of it. -- Justanother 05:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
(conflict and left) You are not suggesting that the incidents in HYLBTL are "doctrine" are you? The concept of past lives is doctrine, those are just stuff that people came up with in session. No one says that they are stories if by stories you mean made-up stories. They were subjectively true for the person that recounted them but they are not doctrine. Just like LRH's far-out off-the-cuff examples were subjectively true for him but only for him. -- Justanother 02:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'll tell you: This is doctrine, and it has nothing to do with the Obscene Dog Incident or the anonymous past life memories in HYLBTL. You will never, never, ever, ever find reliable verifiable sources that state that these things are "Scientology doctrine", and yet that's precisely what this article is presenting. Talk about original research and conspiracy theory! Highfructosecornsyrup 03:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
It's odd that the editors doing all the knee-jerk reverting are also NOT discussing their edits on the talk page and NOT giving any reasons for why they think the Obscene Dog Incident is "Scientology doctrine". Android Cat has made some small effort, but pointing out that the subject of "Past Lives" may or may not be Scientology doctrine has nothing to do with whether or not an anonymous person's alleged past-life memories of being on another planet are. And that's what's being reverted. No one is going to find verifiable non-conspiracy-kook sources that state that these things are "Scientology doctrine". If these editors continue to blindly revert and refuse to even enter a discussion as to what constitutes "Scientology doctrine", I think we'll have to take this to mediation and let some unbiased editors weigh in on this. Highfructosecornsyrup 18:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Be bold in contributions, but not in destructions. Editing is a collaborative effort, so editing boldly should not be confused with reverting boldly. This only leads to edit wars. Use the talk page instead. A simple guideline for simple reverting is that it works best for, and is really intended as, a tool against CLEAR vandalism. So save it for that! In cases other than vandalism, somebody is trying to be constructive. Even if they are doing it badly, and even if they are completely and foolishly wrong, there are usually more polite and constructive ways to deal with them than simply returning the article back to the pristine way (you think) it should remain. So, here's the time to think of better solutions.
I understand that BOLD is guidance not policy but "It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow."If you're tempted to revert for anything but clear vandalism, take a deep breath; it may be better to discuss it on the talk page or build on the previous edit with a new edit of your own. It may be even better to simply do nothing for twenty-four hours while you cool down. Reverting isn't always collaborative editing, but often a cheap shortcut. (And, it doesn't help that you're limited in space for your revert "edit summary" comment. Over-succinctness may lead to rude-sounding stuff.) Be careful if a revert touches off a revert war. If a revert war begins, then collaboration is not working, and editing the article boldly by reverting is not collaboration. Instead it attempts to force one editor's will on the other editors, which will never work. Such edits will not survive. The "correctness" or "truthfulness" of the edit is irrelevant at this point (See: BOLD, revert, discuss cycle).
After reflection this seems a bit of a "no-brainer". "Space opera" is non-encyclopedic as a title. It does not mean "Extraterrestrial Beliefs" to the casual reader or, actually to any non-Scientologist, it means science fiction. But Scientologists define it as non-fiction so the term is inherently confusing as a title. The "space opera" terminology can be explained in the text but let us have a non-ambiguous title, Extraterrestrial beliefs in Scientology. Please give me your thoughts. -- Justanother 19:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Don't know if is middle ground but the simple truth is what I have already stated and restated ad nauseum. Past lives, yes doctrine. A few important ET incidents, i.e. those actually in books (History of Man, HCOBs, etc.) stating "This is what you run" or alledgedly on OT levels (but only those claimed as such by OT and credible ex-scios), yes doctrine. Other incidents that came up in sessions or stray remarks by Hubbard on tapes, not doctrine. Also change name due to its ambiguity of meaning, scio vs. non-scio. -- Justanother 12:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
RH, so you think it is appropriate, in this instance, to title an article with an ambiguous term that has a general population meaning different from the meaning used in the article? General population meaning = pulp fiction; scientology meaning = valid material that might come up in a session. I just want to be sure that I have your position on that issue straight because that is the crux of my argument. -- Justanother 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I will propose "Space opera in Scientology teachings" as a middle ground. It is undeniable that Scientology OT Levels and Hubbard's teachings and lectures about outer space and past lives are a part of what Scientology teaches to its members that take upper level courses and listen to Hubbard's lectures. I'm open to discussing the issue of whether its "doctrine", but I don't believe that it is justifiable to discount all of Hubbard's teachings about Space Opera to be fanciful silly stories. Scientology says itself that Space Opera is NOT FICTION. Vivaldi ( talk) 07:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Let me be honest: I don't actually have very strong feelings on what title we use for this article. What I do have strong feelings about is anyone's attempt to exploit the exact wording of the title -- even if it can be argued that that wording is somehow inexact or incorrect -- to try and change the article's subject. That is the tail wagging the dog. You want the article's title to accurately and precisely describe the contents? Excellent; I'm right there with you. You want the article's title to be interpreted as a very precise description of what the contents should be, and as a justification for slicing out whatever does not match that description? Don't bother trying to cite WP:BOLD to cover that action, because it won't.
I have some thoughts for possible title changes but I will have to post those later. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I kinda thought an encyclopedic article on the subject might be the point. My bad.
In response; how many times do I have to tell you that I have no problem listening to "even those who are ex-Scientologists" and I present to you that if you (that means you, Anteaus Feldspar) have not personally (as in you) listened to the ENTIRE tape (as in the whole thing) where the Arslycus incident is mentioned, for instance, then you have zero idea of where it fits in Scientology "doctrine" and I defy you to find me an RS that says that incident is Scientology doctrine. I don't need an RS to pull; you need an RS to keep it and it is my good faith and willingness to work within the process and nothing more that prevents me from pulling unsourced speculation as to what is doctrine and what is not.
And do I think that I am more qualified than you to "decide what makes the cut and what doesn't"? All due respect, but HELL YES. And I suspect that there are many here that may agree. And not for any fault on your part (this is not WP:NPA) but for the fact that I have much more experience with both sides of the issue. And we are talking about what is Scientology doctrine here or how does ET fit into Scientology so my experience counts for a lot. If we were explaining what is the exact criticisms of Scientology and how do critics feel about Scientology then I would likely default to you. Your view is one-sided and it happens to be the side that does not have the answer to this question. Sorry, but it does not.
Oh, and of course you realize that the R2-45 point is a red herring (or a straw man, take your pick of logical fallacy, or take both). I would never say that referencing R2-45 in the context of an Ethics Order is a joke; I would instead find it appalling. I have seen that Ethics Order (only on the internet, I mean, just like you) and wish that I could find it on an RS instead of a critic site but I will take it with a "grain of salt" as possibly true (or possibly fabricated, I really don't know). -- Justanother 22:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I am removing the improper citation tag because the person who added it has not explained specifically what is incorrectly cited or misinterpreted. If you want to mention specific passages where the cited text does not support the conclusions in the article then please do so here. I don't believe the current quibble over "doctrine" vs. "Hubbard and Scientology teachings" is worthy of tagging the article with this tag. And since CoS says specifically that Space Opera is NOT FICTION, it is silly to proclaim Hubbard's lectures about whole time track incidents are merely funny stories (at least not without a citation from a RS). Vivaldi ( talk) 07:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's start with the fact that the "justification" for calling this all doctrine is that RTC said all is scripture. Not doctrine. So let's start with that bit of truth. If we want to call everything LRH ever said scripture then fine; that is what RTC calls it. You have no RS that says much of this stuff is "doctrine". And, no, the terms are not identical. If we have a consensus I will fix the redirects. -- Justanother 16:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
When this page was moved, the old FAC wasn't correctly archived, so I'm putting it here for whomever wants to fix the template at the top of the talk page - I fixed the FAR.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Space opera in Scientology doctrine
I'd redirect it to scripture, but that would create a mess if you all decide to change the name again. Sandy ( Talk) 01:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Sandy ( Talk) 01:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I dicided to ask a Scientologiest about some of this stuff and see if he would shed some light on this. I thought what he said was worth repeating here. He asked not to be taken as a sorce but would give his opinion. Other than that he has been a member for over 20 years and says he is about half way thru the lvls.
Q. What is your view on Space Opera and what is it?
A. Space Opera is alot of what you would see in Sci Fi movies. Space ships, intergactic stuff, Lasers and aliens. As for my view, well you asked about it with regard to Scientology? (Yes) It is something that its founder comments on - LRH. Most people have no idea why it would be apart of a religion. Thats understandable, it is out there. It comes from Auditing. It comes up WHILE auditing. Most Scientolgists have no idea what its about. But they inevitably run into it. Just about every one has at some point been apart of something like Space Opera at some point on their Whole Track (Memories that predate this life) and so it sooner or later comes up. LRH talks about it, mainly so that Auditors know what to expect. My view of it? I have run into it,... alot. ... (can you tell me anything about it?) Its out there stuff. ... (like what?...) Its rather personal realy. Lots of all the stuff you think of when you say "Sci Fi". But you should get auditing for yourself, then you can have lots of your own memories.
Q. How do you know if you realy remember anything?
A. That is a question that can get you into trouble realy fast. Who has the right to tell you if what you remember is real or not? No matter how they were gotten it is up to the person to sort out for themselves. But little things can help. I once saw a movie with space ships wizzing by. Then went and drew up the scamatics for an ion engene. I had never studied a thing before that. Then 6 years later I saw a Popular Science Mag with an alost mirror image of what I drew. They were not the exact same but there was no doubt they looked light the same machine with simular wording and everything. And that is with no study of any rockets engines of any kind.
Q. I have herd of talk of a guy by the name of Xenu, in something that was to have happened 75 million years ago. I am told it is importiant in Scientology. What can you tell me about it?
A. Who? Never heard of him. LRH has said that there is are plenty of tramatic moments in the lives of thatens over the course of their existance. Some are ones people have in common. LRH said that talk of this stuff will just be problomatic. The insident he is talking about is one such moment. But it is taken up in one of the more advanced lvls. It was for Scientologists that have gotten thru questions like "Does Scientology work?" It was simply a major problem that can up as blocking the road to freedom for Scientologists at that lvl. He talked about it in a lecture called RJ 67. I by no means would try to quote what he said but it had the jist of: It has a powerful effect on people but is simply out of reach for anyone lower on the Bridge (the lvls of Scientology) So much so that it would never even come up. Any effort of address it by Scientologists before they are ready is just trouble waiting to happen. So LRH never made it avalible to anyone but those he thought were ready to address it. If you see anything on it, realize that it is not LRH you are seeing. When LRH refered to it going public as "trouble" well... it would be completely out of context, only quoted by people that -openly violating Church policy- are out to do just that, cause trouble. So what LRH said is drawned in context errors, incorrect assosetion with other ideas only some of which are church related and all of which are out of context. The bottom line is that you will never know what he ment until you do what he says and get upto handling it the way he says. He ment it no other way and he wrote it.
Q. I have seen some figures of the history of the universe where LRH has given some big figures! What is that about? Do you realy beleive its that old?
A. (he laughs) How big were those figures? (Something like 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,... alot! but I have also seen others) Others? Yes, he (LRH) has had some fun with that one. The most common one he uses is 76 trillion I think. But it is not real, its just a big fugure to "wow" ppl. One problem, from what I got, was that it didn't just start all at once. So giving you any exact figure would be open to problems. 76 trillion would be a figure that would say "at this point it looks like the universe we know today" but that is not LRH, that is just my example. Some scientiests say the universe is like 13 billion or something like that. Well.. what are they looking at? Perhaps that part is only 13 billion years old.
Q. Do Scientologiests talk about Space Opeara alot? Like to each other?
A. No. There are little things like hints but its just a fast route to trouble. Like I said many Scientologiests have yet to encounter enough to give them much to work with of their own. Often it only serves to to confuse people that have yet to get control of their own time tracks (past life memories). At some point, I imagine, if you were to get auditing you would likely have to striaten out something that I have said and I have not said much. If you can then imagine what it is like for people that jaber all day about it then you can guess that they could easily end up saying "I was a ruler of Egypt" only because his own pictures (memories)are mashed with some other guy's. And this can be a big problem to him and he can end up running around telling everybody, who in turn, ends up running around themselves saying, "I ruled Egypt". And that gives the hole subject a bad name. Later in auditing our first victum can end up wasting time pulling all this apart only to find out that he saw the Pharaoh for only a moment and on only on 1 occasion. But for something so simple it can cause alot of trouble! Scientologiests higher up (in lvls) can work it out much easier but there are other problems that can effect them too. So we all stear clear of that.
There was more but I think this is enough. Hope it helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.95.117 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, January 6, 2007 (UTC)
Just passing through, and thought I would just mention that the review linked at the top of the page lists many problems, the italicized quotes among them. I'm going to go through and eliminate these, since they're an eyesore, but I've no interest in long-term editing of this article. As a suggestion to the interested parties, perhaps you should start with the things that everyone can agree on: there are no ethics about italics. NPOV can wait until after the article's other problems have been addressed. Cheers,
Archaeo
23:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
honestly, is this actually real? I'm sorry but some vanadalism seems more realistic than this. I just want to make sure that everything is sourced properly. Rugz 01:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is the opening sentence of the WP article Space opera: "Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic adventure, and larger-than-life characters often set against vast exotic settings." Should this information be included in this article? As it is "space opera" outside of Scientology is just said to be a term related to science fiction. Thanks. Steve Dufour 12:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Scientologists are not attempting to be deceitful. Space opera citations really are mostly incidental. The main focus of scientology is given in the title of a hubbard book; namely... The Creation of Human Ability.
Put 2+2 together, here. Maby 100 pages, out ovf volumes, on space opera. Yet hubbard emphasises pragmatism as the emphasis of scientology over and over. It's a matter of comparative volume. Scientologists spend hours apon hours learning and practicing auditing. The sole purpose of a class 4 org is to produce class 4 auditers. The tech is the point. The origonal Title of History of Man was What to Audit, to emphasise the relation of past lives to auditing.
Scientology is not the only religion to have past lives. There is a book supposedly by Buddha, called Jakkata, or Birth Stories, that was something of a best seller in the ancient world. It relates the supposed past lives of Guatama Buddha. So, even sensationalism of past live incidents is not new, but all spiritual ideas must have sounded strange when they were new.
That having been sayd. Hubbard was simply wrong about some stuff, and I'm not sure why he even included alot of stuff. Theres really not much that can be sayd, becouse inside a social mileu, really is difficult to relate to outsiders. I try, but citing refs will be difficult. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thaddeus Slamp ( talk • contribs) 05:27, April 3, 2007 (GMT).
What about it, indeed? I think I know what your driving @, but perhaps you should think about such (what your driving @). Meanwhile, go ahead and tell me. I might be wrong in my guess. Thaddeus Slamp 16:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
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