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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 09:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Why are people using this map? It is extremely old, its foreign, it does not reflect contemporary scholarship (some severe famine areas are not even on the damn map, but some areas with no documented famine are shown black). At that time little was known about the USSR in France or elsewhere. Now we have mountains of scholarship on the famine, but we use an unsourced map thats 80 years old. The best you could say about it is that its: a.old (who cares) b. correctly identifies Ukraine as one of the worst hit areas (as everybody knows anyway).
I really don't see what purpose it serves, other than give people the a incomplete and inaccurate representation of the the famine's geography. â Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.197.30.88 ( talk) 09:21, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
I added the reference for the map. It appears that Dr. Markoff was either shot or sent to the GULAGs in the late 1930's (1937 or 1938). â Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.53.57.210 ( talk) 00:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
This article makes no attempt to discuss the event from a neutral perspective. I introduced two references that dispute the assertion that the famine was mostly or soley due to political factors, but the article is still pretty lopsided and asserts opinions as facts. This is really a sensitive subject area with a lot of propaganda flying around both ways, writing the article like everything about this event has been established as fact is dishonest. FooBar82 ( talk)
Holodomor Template was added to this article strictly for background information of related articles in Wikipedia. The Holodomor template is patterned after the Holocaust Template and the Armenian Genocide Template.
Hello,
There are three tags on the page, and I propose we discuss them one by one. First, the neutrality tag. The reason I think that this is not neutral is that by definition it ascribes the famine to the Soviet Union. When discussing the Irish Potato Famine, one knows that everybody in Ireland suffered. When discussing the Ethiopian famine, one knows that everybody in Ethiopia suffered. However, in 1932-33, only a few small parts of the Soviet Union suffered, mostly (and I mean MOSTLY Ukraine). Therefore, by naming the issue "The Soviet Famine" Wikipedia automatically distributes the suffering throughout the Soviet Union, which simply did not happen.
Second, the tag about OR. None of the references provided mention anything about "all the major grain producing regions of the Soviet Union". There are no in-line references until the "estimation of loss of life" section, and that is only to quote a number. Everything else seems to have been written by the editors, or put together by them. In other words, total OR. In the lead itself, there is a reference to the famine of 1932-34.
Third, about unpublished synthesis. In none of the references is there a description of a famine which affected "all of the grain producing regions of the Soviet Union". Because that never happened. That is not what scholars are saying, and therefore it has no place on Wikipedia. One more query about references. These were stated to be by "acknowledged experts", and yet one of them is titled "The Soviet Famine of 1931-33: Politically Motivated or Ecological Disaster?", with the wrong dates. How is this an "expert" source?
Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 08:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
- The Ukraine at the time was part of the Soviet Union and all the references I found describe the event as the soviet famine therefore the article title is fine and based on that the title is neutral and factually correct. Jasynnash2 ( talk) 09:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello, you're right that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union at the time, but that's exactly the point - there were many parts of the Soviet Union, and most of them were not affected. Don't you think that by saying "Soviet Famine" it implies that everybody suffered, just like saying "Soviet losses during World War II" implies everybody suffered? Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 09:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Horlo, your personal opinions are irrelevant. The famine's being Soviet is stated right in the title of one of the (if not the) most authoritative books on the subject by the leading scholars of the field.
The authors specifically speak about Soviet famine and if you ever intend to start reading any scholarly sources on what happened during this famine (in Ukraine and elsewhere in the USSR), your best shot is to start with this work. (I could recommend also some works in Ukrainian but I am not sure you can read Ukrainian.) Such works are by far more educational than local Ukrainian community newspapers that you mostly use to "source" your articles. While buying this book may cost you, it would be money well spent. Alternatively, you may try a good library. Regards, -- Irpen 04:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I've added sources to the different regions of the famine's locations, Caucasus, Central Asia and Siberia are quite vast territories, add Ukraine to that and it certainly fits the definition of a nation-wide famine. Now we must focus on expanding this article. -- Kuban Cossack 12:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello, if you actually read the talk page, you will see that none of the issues raised have been answered - there is no mention about a Soviet-wide famine. There is talk about people suffering, people starving to death, and one book that describes the failure of Russian agriculture. However, nothing about a Soviet wide famine.
I'm sure that if I count how many times you have called me a POV pusher - in light of the fact that you have not answered any of my questions, and undid how many of my edits claiming "read talk - no consensus" rather than discussing in good faith, I'm pretty sure that it would become obvious who has to participate on the talk page. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 19:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Hello, first, could you please show me one scholarly reference that states that there was a soviet-wide famine which included all of the grain producing areas of the soviet union? Let's start there. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 06:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I had a look at the some of the scholarly sources that mention the "Soviet famine", they all seem to be discussing the famine in Ukraine. The way the lead is structured diminishes the famine in Ukraine to just another area in the Soviet Union suffering a famine, when it is clear that Ukraine had the lion's share of deaths, i.e. Ukraine accounts for >60% of all deaths in the "Soviet famine". I think the lead needs to be re-worded to reflect this fact. Martintg ( talk) 11:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Stalin ordered that kulaks were "to be liquidated as a class" and this liquidation was considered by many historians to have resulted in the Soviet famine of 1932â33. This famine has complicated attempts to identify the number of deaths arising from the executions of kulaks. A wide range of death tolls has been suggested, from as many as 6 million suggested by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, whereas the much lower number of 700,000 deaths are estimated by Soviet sources. A collection of estimates is maintained by Matthew White. Soviet campaign of political repressions, including arrests, deportations, and executions of millions of the better-off peasants and their families in 1929â1932. The Soviet authorities labeled the richer peasants 'kulaks" and portrayed them as class enemies. I wonder why I see no mentions about the massacre of the kulaks having an effect on the famine of 1932-33? To me it seems it should be under the "Reasons"- category on the main article. HawkEye97 ( talk) 20:45, 20 July 2017 (UTC) [1] [2]
Holodomor genocide question Xx236 ( talk) 08:36, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Mikhail Sholokhov wrote a letter in April 1933 [2]. Xx236 ( talk) 09:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
"Execution by Hunger." is title of a book http://www.amazon.com/Execution-Hunger-The-Hidden-Holocaust/dp/0393304167 and one of Holodomor translations. Xx236 ( talk) 09:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
I have found a 1989 article http://scepsis.net/library/id_1105.html, I don't know when the subject sstarted to be discussed. Russia's government declared the famine important in 2008. Xx236 ( talk) 09:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
These edits give undue weight to a tiny minority position. According to "majority" of sources, this famine was not caused by weather or poor harvest. My very best wishes ( talk) 22:41, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
This section is moronic, entirely uncited, and completely unencyclopedic. 68.173.8.191 ( talk) 20:56, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
I overhauled a bunch of this article to try and get it to fit neutrality guidelines a little more. There are still a few statements that I feel are out of line but I've left them alone for the moment. It'd be great if we could reach a consensus on this so the maintenance template can be removed. Thanks! Alistoriv ( talk) 18:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Should this be considered part of the Great Depression? â Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:3C5:8200:B79:8D67:88C4:B4CF:459C ( talk) 20:06, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Obviously a controversial issue, but this article is horrendously bias. There was an intentional aspect to the famine but their were numerous other causes, including drought, mass industrialisation, innefficiencies in collectivization and the hoarding of grain caused by price controls. The entirety of the front of the article has been edited to make this dissapear, which is clear intentional bias.
Quite frankly, the article should simply be deleted in favour of the much better written Holodomor article, which should then be scaled up to include the entirety of the famine.â Preceding unsigned comment added by SirusNotSirius ( talk âą contribs) 20:08, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
What I found missing from this article within the Reasons section was any mention of the unobtainable quotas put against Ukraine during this time which resulted in many deaths, or the numerous police squads sent to take grain away from the peasants personal supplies in order to meet the quota. This also led to many people dying of starvation. JerryBlandford ( talk) 22:53, 22 March 2018 (UTC) [1]
References
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cite book}}
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I added the view that explains why Holodomor might not be categorized as genocide given by a work of the historian cited in the edit. The last paragraph of the section is the edit ("A comprehensive criticism is presented by Michael Ellman in the article âStalin and the Soviet famine of 1932 - 33 Revisitedâ"...). I thought we could create an additional section in the article to add the points in the debate made by different historians and talk about what countries classify the famine as genocide but I could not figure out how to add a new section. Revisions are welcome. If you want to contribute to a new section, please do, then we can move that paragraph there.
In the hypothetical new section, I suggest adding information about which countries classify the famine as genocide. Then citing different historians. Tanya897 ( talk) 22:53, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Soviet famine of 1932â33 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The shortages were blamed on kulak sabotage, and authorities distributed what supplies were available into the urban areas only. 195.195.236.131 ( talk) 15:53, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
The article was just edited to conclusively state that the Holodomor was a genocide. It should be obvious that, between the cites given here and on the Holodomor page, that this is not the universal position: the editor's stated comparison to the settled issue that is the Holocaust only betrays a lack of knowledge on the issue, and their edit contradicts numerous points in this very article. I reverted, but this was undone and I was asked to take it to Talk. I want the page to recognize the unsettled nature of the field, as it generally does (though it really needs a re-write to avoid duplication with the major Kazakh and Ukrainian subpages, and to draw on the sources those provide). Note that I was not making a change, but reverting someone else's: if someone wants to change the existing consensus, they should have made this entry, not me.
At the same time, we have clear cited statements from Lesa Melnyczuk Morgan and Anne Applebaum that it was a genocide. This is not a matter of fringe vs. academia, but of different portions of academia battling it out. Palindromedairy ( talk) 01:48, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Malcolm Muggeridge had report(s) published in the Manchester Evening News before George thingy, according to the Wikipedia page on Walter Duranty. A J Boothroyd ( talk) 14:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
This article seems to have a massive overrepresentation of Mark Tauger's writing, especially compared to authors like Davies & Wheatcroft. More anti-Soviet historians are only mentioned to be immediately dismissed, as happens with Applebaum, by Mark Tauger's criticism. Mark Tauger is the most pro-Soviet government historian among the mainstream Holodomor historians, and the article sways massively pro-Stalin as a result. It needs more Davies/Wheatcroft, Snyder, Kulchytsky, Wolowyna. Additionally, the conservative historiography needs to be expanded beyond Applebaum. Conquest is the most historiographically influential conservative historian on the Holodomor, so he should likely be discussed more than twice.
Ted52 ( talk) 22:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
curprev 20:59, 6 September 2021â Lute88 talk contribsâ m 41,313 bytes 0â Reverted 1 edit by 84.213.82.120 (talk) to last revision by Jprg1966 undo Tags: Undo Twinkle curprev 20:42, 6 September 2021â 84.213.82.120 talkâ 41,313 bytes 0â your inline source quote doesnt match the figure given in text undo Tag: Reverted
what the hell is this supposed to mean? I deleted factually incorrect material and explain in the edit note why that is (which 95% of edits dont do) and somebody immediately reverts it back. Are there ukrainian government employees on this site or what? Do explain yourself or undo the edition. now.
graciously, me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933&action=history , [11.09.2021]
Reply: Your bias does not override how other people feel. Sorry?
This is a long article that gives a prominent place to
drought as a major cause. The lead says Major contributing factors to the famine include: . . . several severe droughts.
Yet the article gives zero details about drought, doesnât say when and where it occurred and what its effects were, and doesnât even seem to agree whether drought was a factor. It does not support the statement in the lead.
Ellman . . . argues that famines and droughts have been a common occurrence throughout Russian history
Russia's intermittent drought was not severe in the affected areas at this time.
Tauger has suggested that drought, damp weather, and the flooding of fields by heavy rain diluted the harvest.
The theory that harsh rain was a cause of the famine has been criticized by scholars who believe that it contradicts Wheatcroft's theory that drought was a primary cause of the low harvest.
After recognition of the famine situation in Ukraine during the drought and poor harvests, the Soviet government in Moscow continued to export grain rather than retain its crop to feed the people
The text of the article does not support the statement in the lead. I will tone it down to say that there is disagreement whether drought was a factor. If anyone can improve the text based on my suggestions above or otherwise, please do. â Michael Z. 17:22, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The lead states Major contributing factors to the famine include: . . . combined with rapid industrialization and a decreasing agricultural workforce.
The infobox also says disputed theories include demand spiking in industrialization
.
Tauger states the effects of [collectivization and forced industrialization] were worse than has been assumed
, preceded by some discussion that procurement displaced the famine from urban areas
. I donât see how can be interpreted as industrialization was an effect that caused the âlow harvest.â The quotations here only support it as the reason the authorities decided peasants and not workers should be the ones to die.
The section
#Causes mentions increased demand for food caused by the urbanization and industrialization
, but leaves the reader puzzled how this increases demand. Is âincreased demandâ the only role of industrialization in causing the famine?
The second paragraph there says industrialization became a starting mechanism of the famine
, and mentions share of investment
, mentions a growing urban labour force
, and says the anticipated surplus was to pay for industrialization
. But then it meanders off into collectivization and kulaks. None of it explains how industrialization âbecame a starting mechanism,â and the reader might speculate that some of these things somehow related to the famine, but it might also be pure innuendo. Do people need more food to survive when they move to cities?
Next para: . . . and a lack of favored industries were the primary contributors to famine mortality
. What the heck does this mean?
Lower down The reasons for the famine are claimed to have been rooted in the industrialization and widespread collectivization of farms that involved escalating taxes, grain-delivery quotas, and dispossession of all property.
No reference. Claimed by whom? How exactly are âreasons . . . rooted in the industrializationâ? I guess this just vaguely means the Soviets decided to starve farmers because they favoured workers.
Which is pretty much the only connection of industrialization to famine that I can divine in the whole article. None of it shows that industrialization caused famine, only that industrialization served as the reason the authorities inflicted the effects of famine on peasants and not workers. If that is it, then the article should state so clearly.
If no one can access the relevant sources, find any other explicit connections, and state them clearly, I am going to fill the article with maintenance tags, then get to work slashing and burning, and writing things clearly. â Michael Z. 17:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
decreasing agricultural workforce, I canât find anything in this article attesting that the agricultural workforce was decreasing, or that that was a major contributing factor to the famine.  â Michael Z. 20:10, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The claim that the Soviet regime printed posters declaring: "To eat your own children is a barbarian act" is supported by Reference 99, however the link http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/cannibalism.pdf provided in this reference is dead. This paper can be found elsewhere but it is paywalled so I did not read it. I doubt that Soviets really printed such posters for the following reasons:
Vitkecar ( talk) 17:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
It is enough that the cited source, VĂĄrdy and VĂĄrdy, depends only on TĂĄpay, as it does because it cites only TĂĄpay, to make this cited source unreliable if TĂĄpay is unreliable.
TĂĄpay is unreliable because it does not cite a source
I've just noticed that two parallel discussions occur in two different pages. It seems I reproduced the same arguments at the Holodomor talk page. It seems we should merge them, and continue it in one place. Although this article can be considered as a mother article for Holodomor, the latter seems more popular for political reasons, so I propose to continue there.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 19:47, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
It would directly contradict that Soviets "actively denied the famine's existence" as stated in the paragraph before.
I agree that WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies. To source the claim that the Soviets printed such a poster, I would expect at least to be able to find, by following secondary sources to primary sources, either a source that reproduces the poster, or a source who claims to have seen the poster. Anything less leaves us in "urban legend" territory. Bruce leverett ( talk) 02:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Lang, Harry (April 15, 1935).
"SOVIET HORROR STORIES ARE CONFIRMED". The Washington Times. In the office of a Soviet functionary I saw a poster on the wall which struck my attention. It showed the picture of a mother in distress, with a swollen child at her feet, and over the picture was the inscription: "Eating of dead children is barbarism."
is the most likely origin. Here is some more on
Harry Lang's articles
[10]. Various Russian, Yidish, Hungarian, to English translations accounting for the difference? What does Food or War have to say?
fiveby(
zero)
03:17, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
correctly identified some bad or misleading reporting from the 1930'sin Fraud, Famine, and Fascism you found through scholar, but it's certainly not appropriate to use for any "debunking". fiveby( zero) 06:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
An orphan was a child who had not been eaten by his parents...Some mothers and fathers killed their children and ate them.I don't think the article should mention the poster at all, but instead use such as Snyder to describe what happened, which is very much DUE. fiveby( zero) 17:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I see that this statement has been removed from this article but it still stands in the Holodomor article, unchallenged, since the dubious tag has been placed on the sentence that follows the one about eating children. Vitkecar ( talk) 05:30, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
Section "Causes" is a big content fork of page Causes of the Holodomor. This needs to be summarized very briefly. But instead, most of the space is dedicated to disputes between different authors. My very best wishes ( talk) 18:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Is the picture used in this article real? The photo at the top of this seems to be distorted (look at the face). Could we use a different photo? 2603:8001:13F0:85C0:9832:BA8C:C46B:BEAE ( talk) 03:16, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Re-did the edit to list it alongside Ukraine as the non-Russian republic it also was. 2804:1684:111:EA68:780C:EAD9:63AA:20E ( talk) 05:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
This Â
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article was nominated for deletion on 18 June 2008. The result of the discussion was keep. |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 24 February 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ytutu, HR Cat.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 09:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Why are people using this map? It is extremely old, its foreign, it does not reflect contemporary scholarship (some severe famine areas are not even on the damn map, but some areas with no documented famine are shown black). At that time little was known about the USSR in France or elsewhere. Now we have mountains of scholarship on the famine, but we use an unsourced map thats 80 years old. The best you could say about it is that its: a.old (who cares) b. correctly identifies Ukraine as one of the worst hit areas (as everybody knows anyway).
I really don't see what purpose it serves, other than give people the a incomplete and inaccurate representation of the the famine's geography. â Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.197.30.88 ( talk) 09:21, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
I added the reference for the map. It appears that Dr. Markoff was either shot or sent to the GULAGs in the late 1930's (1937 or 1938). â Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.53.57.210 ( talk) 00:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
This article makes no attempt to discuss the event from a neutral perspective. I introduced two references that dispute the assertion that the famine was mostly or soley due to political factors, but the article is still pretty lopsided and asserts opinions as facts. This is really a sensitive subject area with a lot of propaganda flying around both ways, writing the article like everything about this event has been established as fact is dishonest. FooBar82 ( talk)
Holodomor Template was added to this article strictly for background information of related articles in Wikipedia. The Holodomor template is patterned after the Holocaust Template and the Armenian Genocide Template.
Hello,
There are three tags on the page, and I propose we discuss them one by one. First, the neutrality tag. The reason I think that this is not neutral is that by definition it ascribes the famine to the Soviet Union. When discussing the Irish Potato Famine, one knows that everybody in Ireland suffered. When discussing the Ethiopian famine, one knows that everybody in Ethiopia suffered. However, in 1932-33, only a few small parts of the Soviet Union suffered, mostly (and I mean MOSTLY Ukraine). Therefore, by naming the issue "The Soviet Famine" Wikipedia automatically distributes the suffering throughout the Soviet Union, which simply did not happen.
Second, the tag about OR. None of the references provided mention anything about "all the major grain producing regions of the Soviet Union". There are no in-line references until the "estimation of loss of life" section, and that is only to quote a number. Everything else seems to have been written by the editors, or put together by them. In other words, total OR. In the lead itself, there is a reference to the famine of 1932-34.
Third, about unpublished synthesis. In none of the references is there a description of a famine which affected "all of the grain producing regions of the Soviet Union". Because that never happened. That is not what scholars are saying, and therefore it has no place on Wikipedia. One more query about references. These were stated to be by "acknowledged experts", and yet one of them is titled "The Soviet Famine of 1931-33: Politically Motivated or Ecological Disaster?", with the wrong dates. How is this an "expert" source?
Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 08:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
- The Ukraine at the time was part of the Soviet Union and all the references I found describe the event as the soviet famine therefore the article title is fine and based on that the title is neutral and factually correct. Jasynnash2 ( talk) 09:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello, you're right that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union at the time, but that's exactly the point - there were many parts of the Soviet Union, and most of them were not affected. Don't you think that by saying "Soviet Famine" it implies that everybody suffered, just like saying "Soviet losses during World War II" implies everybody suffered? Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 09:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Horlo, your personal opinions are irrelevant. The famine's being Soviet is stated right in the title of one of the (if not the) most authoritative books on the subject by the leading scholars of the field.
The authors specifically speak about Soviet famine and if you ever intend to start reading any scholarly sources on what happened during this famine (in Ukraine and elsewhere in the USSR), your best shot is to start with this work. (I could recommend also some works in Ukrainian but I am not sure you can read Ukrainian.) Such works are by far more educational than local Ukrainian community newspapers that you mostly use to "source" your articles. While buying this book may cost you, it would be money well spent. Alternatively, you may try a good library. Regards, -- Irpen 04:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I've added sources to the different regions of the famine's locations, Caucasus, Central Asia and Siberia are quite vast territories, add Ukraine to that and it certainly fits the definition of a nation-wide famine. Now we must focus on expanding this article. -- Kuban Cossack 12:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello, if you actually read the talk page, you will see that none of the issues raised have been answered - there is no mention about a Soviet-wide famine. There is talk about people suffering, people starving to death, and one book that describes the failure of Russian agriculture. However, nothing about a Soviet wide famine.
I'm sure that if I count how many times you have called me a POV pusher - in light of the fact that you have not answered any of my questions, and undid how many of my edits claiming "read talk - no consensus" rather than discussing in good faith, I'm pretty sure that it would become obvious who has to participate on the talk page. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 19:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Hello, first, could you please show me one scholarly reference that states that there was a soviet-wide famine which included all of the grain producing areas of the soviet union? Let's start there. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 06:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I had a look at the some of the scholarly sources that mention the "Soviet famine", they all seem to be discussing the famine in Ukraine. The way the lead is structured diminishes the famine in Ukraine to just another area in the Soviet Union suffering a famine, when it is clear that Ukraine had the lion's share of deaths, i.e. Ukraine accounts for >60% of all deaths in the "Soviet famine". I think the lead needs to be re-worded to reflect this fact. Martintg ( talk) 11:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Stalin ordered that kulaks were "to be liquidated as a class" and this liquidation was considered by many historians to have resulted in the Soviet famine of 1932â33. This famine has complicated attempts to identify the number of deaths arising from the executions of kulaks. A wide range of death tolls has been suggested, from as many as 6 million suggested by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, whereas the much lower number of 700,000 deaths are estimated by Soviet sources. A collection of estimates is maintained by Matthew White. Soviet campaign of political repressions, including arrests, deportations, and executions of millions of the better-off peasants and their families in 1929â1932. The Soviet authorities labeled the richer peasants 'kulaks" and portrayed them as class enemies. I wonder why I see no mentions about the massacre of the kulaks having an effect on the famine of 1932-33? To me it seems it should be under the "Reasons"- category on the main article. HawkEye97 ( talk) 20:45, 20 July 2017 (UTC) [1] [2]
Holodomor genocide question Xx236 ( talk) 08:36, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Mikhail Sholokhov wrote a letter in April 1933 [2]. Xx236 ( talk) 09:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
"Execution by Hunger." is title of a book http://www.amazon.com/Execution-Hunger-The-Hidden-Holocaust/dp/0393304167 and one of Holodomor translations. Xx236 ( talk) 09:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
I have found a 1989 article http://scepsis.net/library/id_1105.html, I don't know when the subject sstarted to be discussed. Russia's government declared the famine important in 2008. Xx236 ( talk) 09:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
These edits give undue weight to a tiny minority position. According to "majority" of sources, this famine was not caused by weather or poor harvest. My very best wishes ( talk) 22:41, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
This section is moronic, entirely uncited, and completely unencyclopedic. 68.173.8.191 ( talk) 20:56, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
I overhauled a bunch of this article to try and get it to fit neutrality guidelines a little more. There are still a few statements that I feel are out of line but I've left them alone for the moment. It'd be great if we could reach a consensus on this so the maintenance template can be removed. Thanks! Alistoriv ( talk) 18:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Should this be considered part of the Great Depression? â Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:3C5:8200:B79:8D67:88C4:B4CF:459C ( talk) 20:06, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Obviously a controversial issue, but this article is horrendously bias. There was an intentional aspect to the famine but their were numerous other causes, including drought, mass industrialisation, innefficiencies in collectivization and the hoarding of grain caused by price controls. The entirety of the front of the article has been edited to make this dissapear, which is clear intentional bias.
Quite frankly, the article should simply be deleted in favour of the much better written Holodomor article, which should then be scaled up to include the entirety of the famine.â Preceding unsigned comment added by SirusNotSirius ( talk âą contribs) 20:08, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
What I found missing from this article within the Reasons section was any mention of the unobtainable quotas put against Ukraine during this time which resulted in many deaths, or the numerous police squads sent to take grain away from the peasants personal supplies in order to meet the quota. This also led to many people dying of starvation. JerryBlandford ( talk) 22:53, 22 March 2018 (UTC) [1]
References
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I added the view that explains why Holodomor might not be categorized as genocide given by a work of the historian cited in the edit. The last paragraph of the section is the edit ("A comprehensive criticism is presented by Michael Ellman in the article âStalin and the Soviet famine of 1932 - 33 Revisitedâ"...). I thought we could create an additional section in the article to add the points in the debate made by different historians and talk about what countries classify the famine as genocide but I could not figure out how to add a new section. Revisions are welcome. If you want to contribute to a new section, please do, then we can move that paragraph there.
In the hypothetical new section, I suggest adding information about which countries classify the famine as genocide. Then citing different historians. Tanya897 ( talk) 22:53, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Soviet famine of 1932â33 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The shortages were blamed on kulak sabotage, and authorities distributed what supplies were available into the urban areas only. 195.195.236.131 ( talk) 15:53, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
The article was just edited to conclusively state that the Holodomor was a genocide. It should be obvious that, between the cites given here and on the Holodomor page, that this is not the universal position: the editor's stated comparison to the settled issue that is the Holocaust only betrays a lack of knowledge on the issue, and their edit contradicts numerous points in this very article. I reverted, but this was undone and I was asked to take it to Talk. I want the page to recognize the unsettled nature of the field, as it generally does (though it really needs a re-write to avoid duplication with the major Kazakh and Ukrainian subpages, and to draw on the sources those provide). Note that I was not making a change, but reverting someone else's: if someone wants to change the existing consensus, they should have made this entry, not me.
At the same time, we have clear cited statements from Lesa Melnyczuk Morgan and Anne Applebaum that it was a genocide. This is not a matter of fringe vs. academia, but of different portions of academia battling it out. Palindromedairy ( talk) 01:48, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Malcolm Muggeridge had report(s) published in the Manchester Evening News before George thingy, according to the Wikipedia page on Walter Duranty. A J Boothroyd ( talk) 14:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
This article seems to have a massive overrepresentation of Mark Tauger's writing, especially compared to authors like Davies & Wheatcroft. More anti-Soviet historians are only mentioned to be immediately dismissed, as happens with Applebaum, by Mark Tauger's criticism. Mark Tauger is the most pro-Soviet government historian among the mainstream Holodomor historians, and the article sways massively pro-Stalin as a result. It needs more Davies/Wheatcroft, Snyder, Kulchytsky, Wolowyna. Additionally, the conservative historiography needs to be expanded beyond Applebaum. Conquest is the most historiographically influential conservative historian on the Holodomor, so he should likely be discussed more than twice.
Ted52 ( talk) 22:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
curprev 20:59, 6 September 2021â Lute88 talk contribsâ m 41,313 bytes 0â Reverted 1 edit by 84.213.82.120 (talk) to last revision by Jprg1966 undo Tags: Undo Twinkle curprev 20:42, 6 September 2021â 84.213.82.120 talkâ 41,313 bytes 0â your inline source quote doesnt match the figure given in text undo Tag: Reverted
what the hell is this supposed to mean? I deleted factually incorrect material and explain in the edit note why that is (which 95% of edits dont do) and somebody immediately reverts it back. Are there ukrainian government employees on this site or what? Do explain yourself or undo the edition. now.
graciously, me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933&action=history , [11.09.2021]
Reply: Your bias does not override how other people feel. Sorry?
This is a long article that gives a prominent place to
drought as a major cause. The lead says Major contributing factors to the famine include: . . . several severe droughts.
Yet the article gives zero details about drought, doesnât say when and where it occurred and what its effects were, and doesnât even seem to agree whether drought was a factor. It does not support the statement in the lead.
Ellman . . . argues that famines and droughts have been a common occurrence throughout Russian history
Russia's intermittent drought was not severe in the affected areas at this time.
Tauger has suggested that drought, damp weather, and the flooding of fields by heavy rain diluted the harvest.
The theory that harsh rain was a cause of the famine has been criticized by scholars who believe that it contradicts Wheatcroft's theory that drought was a primary cause of the low harvest.
After recognition of the famine situation in Ukraine during the drought and poor harvests, the Soviet government in Moscow continued to export grain rather than retain its crop to feed the people
The text of the article does not support the statement in the lead. I will tone it down to say that there is disagreement whether drought was a factor. If anyone can improve the text based on my suggestions above or otherwise, please do. â Michael Z. 17:22, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The lead states Major contributing factors to the famine include: . . . combined with rapid industrialization and a decreasing agricultural workforce.
The infobox also says disputed theories include demand spiking in industrialization
.
Tauger states the effects of [collectivization and forced industrialization] were worse than has been assumed
, preceded by some discussion that procurement displaced the famine from urban areas
. I donât see how can be interpreted as industrialization was an effect that caused the âlow harvest.â The quotations here only support it as the reason the authorities decided peasants and not workers should be the ones to die.
The section
#Causes mentions increased demand for food caused by the urbanization and industrialization
, but leaves the reader puzzled how this increases demand. Is âincreased demandâ the only role of industrialization in causing the famine?
The second paragraph there says industrialization became a starting mechanism of the famine
, and mentions share of investment
, mentions a growing urban labour force
, and says the anticipated surplus was to pay for industrialization
. But then it meanders off into collectivization and kulaks. None of it explains how industrialization âbecame a starting mechanism,â and the reader might speculate that some of these things somehow related to the famine, but it might also be pure innuendo. Do people need more food to survive when they move to cities?
Next para: . . . and a lack of favored industries were the primary contributors to famine mortality
. What the heck does this mean?
Lower down The reasons for the famine are claimed to have been rooted in the industrialization and widespread collectivization of farms that involved escalating taxes, grain-delivery quotas, and dispossession of all property.
No reference. Claimed by whom? How exactly are âreasons . . . rooted in the industrializationâ? I guess this just vaguely means the Soviets decided to starve farmers because they favoured workers.
Which is pretty much the only connection of industrialization to famine that I can divine in the whole article. None of it shows that industrialization caused famine, only that industrialization served as the reason the authorities inflicted the effects of famine on peasants and not workers. If that is it, then the article should state so clearly.
If no one can access the relevant sources, find any other explicit connections, and state them clearly, I am going to fill the article with maintenance tags, then get to work slashing and burning, and writing things clearly. â Michael Z. 17:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
decreasing agricultural workforce, I canât find anything in this article attesting that the agricultural workforce was decreasing, or that that was a major contributing factor to the famine.  â Michael Z. 20:10, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The claim that the Soviet regime printed posters declaring: "To eat your own children is a barbarian act" is supported by Reference 99, however the link http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/cannibalism.pdf provided in this reference is dead. This paper can be found elsewhere but it is paywalled so I did not read it. I doubt that Soviets really printed such posters for the following reasons:
Vitkecar ( talk) 17:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
It is enough that the cited source, VĂĄrdy and VĂĄrdy, depends only on TĂĄpay, as it does because it cites only TĂĄpay, to make this cited source unreliable if TĂĄpay is unreliable.
TĂĄpay is unreliable because it does not cite a source
I've just noticed that two parallel discussions occur in two different pages. It seems I reproduced the same arguments at the Holodomor talk page. It seems we should merge them, and continue it in one place. Although this article can be considered as a mother article for Holodomor, the latter seems more popular for political reasons, so I propose to continue there.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 19:47, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
It would directly contradict that Soviets "actively denied the famine's existence" as stated in the paragraph before.
I agree that WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies. To source the claim that the Soviets printed such a poster, I would expect at least to be able to find, by following secondary sources to primary sources, either a source that reproduces the poster, or a source who claims to have seen the poster. Anything less leaves us in "urban legend" territory. Bruce leverett ( talk) 02:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Lang, Harry (April 15, 1935).
"SOVIET HORROR STORIES ARE CONFIRMED". The Washington Times. In the office of a Soviet functionary I saw a poster on the wall which struck my attention. It showed the picture of a mother in distress, with a swollen child at her feet, and over the picture was the inscription: "Eating of dead children is barbarism."
is the most likely origin. Here is some more on
Harry Lang's articles
[10]. Various Russian, Yidish, Hungarian, to English translations accounting for the difference? What does Food or War have to say?
fiveby(
zero)
03:17, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
correctly identified some bad or misleading reporting from the 1930'sin Fraud, Famine, and Fascism you found through scholar, but it's certainly not appropriate to use for any "debunking". fiveby( zero) 06:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
An orphan was a child who had not been eaten by his parents...Some mothers and fathers killed their children and ate them.I don't think the article should mention the poster at all, but instead use such as Snyder to describe what happened, which is very much DUE. fiveby( zero) 17:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I see that this statement has been removed from this article but it still stands in the Holodomor article, unchallenged, since the dubious tag has been placed on the sentence that follows the one about eating children. Vitkecar ( talk) 05:30, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
Section "Causes" is a big content fork of page Causes of the Holodomor. This needs to be summarized very briefly. But instead, most of the space is dedicated to disputes between different authors. My very best wishes ( talk) 18:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Is the picture used in this article real? The photo at the top of this seems to be distorted (look at the face). Could we use a different photo? 2603:8001:13F0:85C0:9832:BA8C:C46B:BEAE ( talk) 03:16, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Re-did the edit to list it alongside Ukraine as the non-Russian republic it also was. 2804:1684:111:EA68:780C:EAD9:63AA:20E ( talk) 05:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)