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This article is so biased it should be removed completely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conv ( talk • contribs) 02:15, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree this article should be removed, most of the claims it makes are lacking any citation (as the citation needed brackets note). It reads like Zionist propaganda against the Soviet Union, lacking again any sources. Historylover4 ( talk) 03:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The bias is in some of the drive-by editing. "Removing links to deleted file File:Iudaism bez prikras 63-7.gif" removed an image of the original cover image from Soviet commissioned and owned "Judaism Without Embellishment" http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JX-ig9p6WFM/T3JoLCWNtpI/AAAAAAAAASU/NZ4rTv7_qiQ/s1600/iudaism_without_embellishment.png with the excuse that it was copyrighted material by some unnamed artist. In reality, it was a book produced by a collectivist country that no longer exists. JohnTagliaferro ( talk) 23:44, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Could somebody please insert something about the origin of the term "Zionology" -- I understand that the user Yms (see the bottom of the talk page) has written here a while back that, while being a Soviet (Jewish) citizen (and student and Komsomol member) in the '70s and '80s he never heard the term.
I am also Russian-speaking, have a personal interest in the subject, and am Jewish and decently educated, but I was wholly unfamiliar with the term prior to finding this article. Hence, while it's indisputable that the Soviet Union espoused anti-Zionist political currents, which it certainly promoted through academia, it's difficult to see at this point whether the term is in fact a Soviet one (I'm sure that, if so, it would have been a very obscure one), or whether it was coined in the West, possibly as a term emerging in the USSR critical scholarship during Glasnost, in Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union, or even elsewhere, to refer to these anti-Zionist doctrines. If anybody has information on the origin or coinage of the term, it'd really help out the information provided here, and I'd personally appreciate your effort.
Thanks, 209.183.32.47 ( talk) 04:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I'd never heard of "Zionology" when I happened upon this article. From the viewpoint of someone ignorant of the subject, who comes to Wikipedia seeking knowledge of it, I must tell the people who do know something about it that this article in its current state does a poor job of explaining it. Perhaps too much background knowledge is being assumed. Near the beginning there should be a clear, succinct statement of the underlying principle. Is it basically a form of biased history, blaming Jews for everything and attributing all sorts of evil motives to them? Does it get the "pseudoscience" tag because it espouses racial theories that address scientific subjects (heritability of particular traits) but does so unscientifically (e.g., claiming on little or no evidence that Jews have a genetic predisposition toward violence or avarice or whatever)? My personal opinion is that some classical forms of anti-Semitism (the Jewish conspiracy to take over the world or whatever) are rubbish but are not pseudoscience. That term relates only to a particular subcategory of all the rubbish that's out there. Anyway, I'd really appreciate some clarification in this article. JamesMLane 05:04, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Even with the additional material you've added, I don't see how this qualifies as a pseudoscience. For example, racist views in the U.S.: (1) "The Negro has a smaller brain than the Caucasian and is therefore inherently less intelligent" -- pseudoscience; (2) "The civil rights movement is a Communist plot to take over America" -- not pseudoscience. This article makes Zionology sound much more like the second than the first. The truth or falsity of such statements is not something one would attempt to determine using the scientific method (reproducible experimental results, double-blind testing, quantitative prediction, etc.). Did Zionology address any questions that would fall within the realm of science, as opposed to history, ideology, etc.? If not, the tag should come off. JamesMLane 18:37, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I would have no hesitation in saying that history is not a science. It follows that biased history is merely a form of bad history, not of pseudoscience. The scientific method (with controlled experimentation, etc.) simply isn't available to solve most historical questions, although techniques like radiocarbon dating can sometimes illuminate particular points. As for Zionology, if a field calls itself a science, while not only rejecting true scientific method but also speaking to questions that aren't even susceptible to scientific inquiry in the first place, I think it's a close question whether that's a pseudoscience. I've lodged the query on Talk:Pseudoscience in the hope that others will chime in here. JamesMLane 20:22, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Fastfission, why do you say it doesn't meet the definition as per Wikipedia? The current definition at Pseudoscience is: "A pseudoscience is any body of knowledge purporting to be either both factual and scientific, or of an even higher standard of knowledge, but which fails to comply with scientific method." That seems to apply to Zionology, Marxism and most organized religions. In other words, it's too broad. I realize there's been a great deal of discussion of definitional issues on Talk:Pseudoscience, which I haven't yet read. JamesMLane 03:23, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I said that organized religions met the current Wikipedia definition of "pseudoscience" because, even though they don't pretend to be scientific, they claim to be "of an even higher standard of knowledge." The suggestions of a subcat for "Social pseudoscience" (or maybe it should be separate from and parallel to "Pseudoscience," not under it), and/or of adding a discussion of Soviet practices to the Pseudoscience article, are worth considering. The problem in dealing with Marxism is that, even though Marxism isn't a science in the form of chemistry or some such, Marx did have some valuable insights. It's precisely because he was addressing topics that aren't susceptible to scientific method that his observations, like those of any other political economist, can have merit though they're unscientific. That seems to me to be an important distinction between Marxism (or, for that matter, Zionology), on the one hand, and astrology, on the other. Therefore, I'd be more inclined to narrow the definition of pseudoscience, to call it something like "an attempt to address scientific topics in unscientific ways." Then there could be a separate discussion, perhaps in the Pseudoscience article, about the attempts by Soviets and others to give scientific trappings to ideological points of view that don't even qualify as pseudosciences. I'll admit, though, that the distinction wouldn't always be easy to draw. JamesMLane 17:39, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The trouble with ruling out anything a propaganda department says is that some of it is "genuine" pseudoscience. For example, there might be a false claim that DNA analysis shows some inferiority in the genes of a disfavored ethnic group. That seems to me to be pseudoscience. A false claim that the group is being funded by foreign enemies is not pseudoscience. I'm not applying a definition here. These are just my gut reactions about the meaning of the term. I do agree with you that the "-ology" suffix is not, by itself, enough. JamesMLane 02:40, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"I would attach no weight to the -ology argument that suggest that such a suffix implies a science. That kind of thinking would render ideology into a science." Eclecticology 22:34, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I was born in Moscow, Soviet Usion and live in Moscow now. And I NEVER heared such term as "Zionology" from any source except this article.-- Nixer 13:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I lived in the USSR in the 70-80s, being in Komsomol in the 80s, studied in a university, heard a lot of "anti-Zionist" propaganda, remember a lot of Party documents we had to read and hear in the mass media, but I never heard of this word. The most complete Russian dictionaries in http://gramota.ru find only синология ( sinology). You cand hardly find it in any Russian dictionary published in the Soviet times. The only explanation for this is that it's a very obscure word not used in practice by Soviet anti-Zionists. It may be very convenient to say "Zionology" instead of "Soviet anti-Zionism", but it does not reflect the real state of things. At least, obscurity of this term must be reflected in this article. The article itself should be probably renamed to "Soviet anti-Zionism" because it is its real subject. -- Yms 04:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
This article overlaps substantially with Soviet Union and the Arab-Israeli conflict, and a merge seems to be indicated. -- John Nagle 19:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, just looking at (edit summary), it tells: "bring a conspiracy amongst the Soviets to spread antisemitism" ??? Of course there was no conspiracy. That was simply an official ideology and policy of Soviet state. Yes, sure, there are already some sources and one can bring a lot more. My very best wishes ( talk) 05:56, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
The Soviets were extremely philosemitic and even had laws against anti-Semitism as well as being the first country to recognize Israel. This wiki reads like some Leftist pseudo-intellectual blog. 80.6.70.42 ( talk) 03:06, 17 April 2015 (UTC)Alan
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The coverage of the subject suffers from two major drawbacks: it misses two vital points:
I am not an expert in political science, but maybe later I will add a sentence of two to fix the above, but others are very invited. Loew Galitz ( talk) 19:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
When the article was called Zionology, it made sense to have Mahmoud Abbas here, but the article is called "Soviet" anti-zionism, not anti-zionism in general. This section should be deleted or moved to another page. Abbas's antisemitic conspiracy theories have no connection to the USSR in this article, and if there are some, they should be included. Regardless, this section is undue weight even if it is tangentially related. Catboy69 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:30, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 25 December 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is so biased it should be removed completely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conv ( talk • contribs) 02:15, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree this article should be removed, most of the claims it makes are lacking any citation (as the citation needed brackets note). It reads like Zionist propaganda against the Soviet Union, lacking again any sources. Historylover4 ( talk) 03:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The bias is in some of the drive-by editing. "Removing links to deleted file File:Iudaism bez prikras 63-7.gif" removed an image of the original cover image from Soviet commissioned and owned "Judaism Without Embellishment" http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JX-ig9p6WFM/T3JoLCWNtpI/AAAAAAAAASU/NZ4rTv7_qiQ/s1600/iudaism_without_embellishment.png with the excuse that it was copyrighted material by some unnamed artist. In reality, it was a book produced by a collectivist country that no longer exists. JohnTagliaferro ( talk) 23:44, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Could somebody please insert something about the origin of the term "Zionology" -- I understand that the user Yms (see the bottom of the talk page) has written here a while back that, while being a Soviet (Jewish) citizen (and student and Komsomol member) in the '70s and '80s he never heard the term.
I am also Russian-speaking, have a personal interest in the subject, and am Jewish and decently educated, but I was wholly unfamiliar with the term prior to finding this article. Hence, while it's indisputable that the Soviet Union espoused anti-Zionist political currents, which it certainly promoted through academia, it's difficult to see at this point whether the term is in fact a Soviet one (I'm sure that, if so, it would have been a very obscure one), or whether it was coined in the West, possibly as a term emerging in the USSR critical scholarship during Glasnost, in Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union, or even elsewhere, to refer to these anti-Zionist doctrines. If anybody has information on the origin or coinage of the term, it'd really help out the information provided here, and I'd personally appreciate your effort.
Thanks, 209.183.32.47 ( talk) 04:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I'd never heard of "Zionology" when I happened upon this article. From the viewpoint of someone ignorant of the subject, who comes to Wikipedia seeking knowledge of it, I must tell the people who do know something about it that this article in its current state does a poor job of explaining it. Perhaps too much background knowledge is being assumed. Near the beginning there should be a clear, succinct statement of the underlying principle. Is it basically a form of biased history, blaming Jews for everything and attributing all sorts of evil motives to them? Does it get the "pseudoscience" tag because it espouses racial theories that address scientific subjects (heritability of particular traits) but does so unscientifically (e.g., claiming on little or no evidence that Jews have a genetic predisposition toward violence or avarice or whatever)? My personal opinion is that some classical forms of anti-Semitism (the Jewish conspiracy to take over the world or whatever) are rubbish but are not pseudoscience. That term relates only to a particular subcategory of all the rubbish that's out there. Anyway, I'd really appreciate some clarification in this article. JamesMLane 05:04, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Even with the additional material you've added, I don't see how this qualifies as a pseudoscience. For example, racist views in the U.S.: (1) "The Negro has a smaller brain than the Caucasian and is therefore inherently less intelligent" -- pseudoscience; (2) "The civil rights movement is a Communist plot to take over America" -- not pseudoscience. This article makes Zionology sound much more like the second than the first. The truth or falsity of such statements is not something one would attempt to determine using the scientific method (reproducible experimental results, double-blind testing, quantitative prediction, etc.). Did Zionology address any questions that would fall within the realm of science, as opposed to history, ideology, etc.? If not, the tag should come off. JamesMLane 18:37, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I would have no hesitation in saying that history is not a science. It follows that biased history is merely a form of bad history, not of pseudoscience. The scientific method (with controlled experimentation, etc.) simply isn't available to solve most historical questions, although techniques like radiocarbon dating can sometimes illuminate particular points. As for Zionology, if a field calls itself a science, while not only rejecting true scientific method but also speaking to questions that aren't even susceptible to scientific inquiry in the first place, I think it's a close question whether that's a pseudoscience. I've lodged the query on Talk:Pseudoscience in the hope that others will chime in here. JamesMLane 20:22, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Fastfission, why do you say it doesn't meet the definition as per Wikipedia? The current definition at Pseudoscience is: "A pseudoscience is any body of knowledge purporting to be either both factual and scientific, or of an even higher standard of knowledge, but which fails to comply with scientific method." That seems to apply to Zionology, Marxism and most organized religions. In other words, it's too broad. I realize there's been a great deal of discussion of definitional issues on Talk:Pseudoscience, which I haven't yet read. JamesMLane 03:23, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I said that organized religions met the current Wikipedia definition of "pseudoscience" because, even though they don't pretend to be scientific, they claim to be "of an even higher standard of knowledge." The suggestions of a subcat for "Social pseudoscience" (or maybe it should be separate from and parallel to "Pseudoscience," not under it), and/or of adding a discussion of Soviet practices to the Pseudoscience article, are worth considering. The problem in dealing with Marxism is that, even though Marxism isn't a science in the form of chemistry or some such, Marx did have some valuable insights. It's precisely because he was addressing topics that aren't susceptible to scientific method that his observations, like those of any other political economist, can have merit though they're unscientific. That seems to me to be an important distinction between Marxism (or, for that matter, Zionology), on the one hand, and astrology, on the other. Therefore, I'd be more inclined to narrow the definition of pseudoscience, to call it something like "an attempt to address scientific topics in unscientific ways." Then there could be a separate discussion, perhaps in the Pseudoscience article, about the attempts by Soviets and others to give scientific trappings to ideological points of view that don't even qualify as pseudosciences. I'll admit, though, that the distinction wouldn't always be easy to draw. JamesMLane 17:39, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The trouble with ruling out anything a propaganda department says is that some of it is "genuine" pseudoscience. For example, there might be a false claim that DNA analysis shows some inferiority in the genes of a disfavored ethnic group. That seems to me to be pseudoscience. A false claim that the group is being funded by foreign enemies is not pseudoscience. I'm not applying a definition here. These are just my gut reactions about the meaning of the term. I do agree with you that the "-ology" suffix is not, by itself, enough. JamesMLane 02:40, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"I would attach no weight to the -ology argument that suggest that such a suffix implies a science. That kind of thinking would render ideology into a science." Eclecticology 22:34, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I was born in Moscow, Soviet Usion and live in Moscow now. And I NEVER heared such term as "Zionology" from any source except this article.-- Nixer 13:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I lived in the USSR in the 70-80s, being in Komsomol in the 80s, studied in a university, heard a lot of "anti-Zionist" propaganda, remember a lot of Party documents we had to read and hear in the mass media, but I never heard of this word. The most complete Russian dictionaries in http://gramota.ru find only синология ( sinology). You cand hardly find it in any Russian dictionary published in the Soviet times. The only explanation for this is that it's a very obscure word not used in practice by Soviet anti-Zionists. It may be very convenient to say "Zionology" instead of "Soviet anti-Zionism", but it does not reflect the real state of things. At least, obscurity of this term must be reflected in this article. The article itself should be probably renamed to "Soviet anti-Zionism" because it is its real subject. -- Yms 04:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
This article overlaps substantially with Soviet Union and the Arab-Israeli conflict, and a merge seems to be indicated. -- John Nagle 19:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, just looking at (edit summary), it tells: "bring a conspiracy amongst the Soviets to spread antisemitism" ??? Of course there was no conspiracy. That was simply an official ideology and policy of Soviet state. Yes, sure, there are already some sources and one can bring a lot more. My very best wishes ( talk) 05:56, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
The Soviets were extremely philosemitic and even had laws against anti-Semitism as well as being the first country to recognize Israel. This wiki reads like some Leftist pseudo-intellectual blog. 80.6.70.42 ( talk) 03:06, 17 April 2015 (UTC)Alan
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The coverage of the subject suffers from two major drawbacks: it misses two vital points:
I am not an expert in political science, but maybe later I will add a sentence of two to fix the above, but others are very invited. Loew Galitz ( talk) 19:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
When the article was called Zionology, it made sense to have Mahmoud Abbas here, but the article is called "Soviet" anti-zionism, not anti-zionism in general. This section should be deleted or moved to another page. Abbas's antisemitic conspiracy theories have no connection to the USSR in this article, and if there are some, they should be included. Regardless, this section is undue weight even if it is tangentially related. Catboy69 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:30, 8 September 2023 (UTC)