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I hope my additions (which are mostly from memory) are correct, feel free to edit out errors. It would be good if someone could provide a translation of the inscription. Andreas 14:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I am getting it translated. Adam 01:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I am told it means: "Eternal glory to the heroes who fell in battle with the German fascist occupiers for the freedom and independence of the Soviet Union." Adam 02:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The former text reference stated that Soviet guards were routing to and from the memorial "using a side-door of the Brandenburg Gate to get into the western sector at the time of changing of the Guard."
This is incorrect. The memorial stands in Tiergarten district, but Brandenburg Gate stands entirely in the area of Mitte district, which belonged to the Soviet sector. The actual district border which later became first, part the sector border, later, the state border between West-Berlin and the GDR, run about 50 meters westwards from the Gate (in an arched path).
When the sector borders were closed (Berlin Wall), this area was seamlessly closed.The whole building of the Brandenburg Gate was surrounded by the heavily patrolled East German border strip and relatively far (25-50 meters) from the Wall. The Gate, as a grotesque contrast to its name, remained a restricted area and closed, uncrossable in any way, until the fall of the Berlin Wall. After the 13th August, 1961, it was not a crossing point anymore. There was absolutely no crossing, not even for allied military personnel.
There was no point to use any part of the Gate because one would just arrive into the same East German border area, without even approaching the actual border (which lied on the other side of the Wall). There were only a few service/repair "doors" in the Wall (small, slideable concrete panels actually) used by East German border troops to climb out and back (not walk through) to the Western side of the Wall, in order to make repair works. The idea as described by the quoted text is presumably fictional.
The Wall itself stood on East German soil (within the district boundaries of Mitte) and this part of it run totally closed from the river Spree to the next crossing point, Checkpoint Charlie, at the intersection of Zimmerstrasse/Friedrichstrasse.
Soviet military guard units for the memorial used Checkpoint Charlie to enter the Western sectors (American then British), following a strict route, without any stopping, in armored patrol cars. Allied forces could move freely in each others' sectors but they were obliged to check in at allied checkpoints when crossing the sector borders, especially between the Soviet and the Western ones. The area of the memorial was fenced by barbed wire to prevent Soviet guards from defecting.
Therefore, the referred part has been edited out from the article.
I believe at the time of the battle the VVS was not an independent arm, it was under control of the Red Army (like the USAAF was at the time). If that is wrong then I will correct the link. I don't think many members of the Soviet navy were involved. :-) Andreas 16:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The monument has often been referred to as the Grabmal des unbekannten Vergewaltigers and varians thereof in reference to the behavior of the Red Army. [1] I'm just wondering whether it would be a good idea to mention this. ProhibitOnions (T) 16:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The Telegraph article cited doesn't say which Soviet memorial is called "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist." It may be a reference to the Treptower Park memorial, which is also a cemetery. No-one is buried at the Tiergarten memorial. Adam 00:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
That is all fair comment, but here, here and here are sources which refer specifically to East Berlin or Treptower Park. I can't find a reference which links specifically to Tiergarten. ("Grabmal des unbekannten Vergewaltigers" gets no Google hits at all). PS what have you got against onions? Adam 01:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the monument that was known as the "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist." There is no "unknown" buried there, but the idea was taken from the US Tomb of the Unknown in Washington. The term, while not as commonly used today, is still known in the city, and during my recent research for a book about Berlin the subject came up more than once. At least twice I heard women old enough to remember speak of it using that term. While I can't speak directly to what Wiki would say about it, the term is historically accurate...and we could cite Douglas Botting In the Ruins of the Reich along with many other sources.
Personally, I would strongly suggest it be included. It is significant historically, and that perception became one of the big influences on the 1946 city election in which the Communists lost badly. It was part of the events that led to the blockade and Luftbrücke in 1948-49. Wood Artist ( talk) 06:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Cochrane, Allan (2006). Making up meanings in a capital city: power, memory and monuments in Berlin. European Urban and Regional Studies, 13(1), pp. 5–24.
http://oro.open.ac.uk/2879/1/Berlinmeaningsfinal.pdf
Citation: “One condition of the departure of Soviet troops from Berlin was that the Soviet war memorials would be maintained, and the Soviet War Memorial in Treptower Park, with its massive Stalinist structures it remains there inviolate, visited by the occasional tourist. A second memorial, on a slightly smaller scale, is more centrally located in the Tiergarten, incorporating tanks and other heavy weapons, has historically received rather more attention from the local population, attracting the epithet ‘tomb of the unknown rapist’ or ‘tomb of the unknown plunderer’.
Tikru8 11:39, 17 October 2011 (EET)
The article does not explain one thing. How is it possible that this statue is still standing? It is a symbol of enemy and oppressor that forced half of the country under dictatorship for decades. Red army also raped, robbed and killed civilians like berserk barbarians while they destroyed this city. After nazis were defeated many nazi symbols were destroyed, which was good. Now communism is gone but there are still this kinds of monuments hailing to communist dictatorship and crimes - which is extremely weird because Germany is declared democratic country. They could just demolish this temple of horror, like liberated people usually does in such circumstances, but they do not. Tell me why and also add that to the article. 193.167.40.108 15:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Although the monument is very heavy-handed, it was deliberately "in your face" to remind the Germans that they had lost and that the Soviet Union would never allow them to rise again. Probably the only "odd" part is that it was placed in the British occupation zone, although that might well have been intentional too. Stalin fully expected to take over the entire city by pushing the western allies out...which he nearly did. However, it is also true that the Tiergarten was the largest open space where something like this could be easily built, and the red granite used for it came from Hitler's Chancellery, not far away. Seen in the context of the times, it made sense, at least to Stalin. Wood Artist ( talk) 06:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The Soviet Union defended itself out of pure self intrest, and what's this about the Soviet Union fighting for freedom? Every single nation within their occupation zone was repressed for 50 years and made to suffer under dicatorship. Why should Germany of all countries, honour and respect an enemy that indiscrimately raped and murdered Poles and Germans. Yes the Germans performed their own war crimes during their stint in Russia, but that does not excuse Russia, as the soldiers themselves believed. If i were German, especially if I was Prussian, I would be completely offended that this statue still exists. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
142.161.153.104 (
talk)
03:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Coming from a country outside the west and eastern blocks, I was horrified by the location of this monument! I've seen plenty of similar when traveling in ex-USSR but this seems so "in-your-face". A little digging into the past shows that it was a controversial monument especially during the cold war, thus I added a "Controversy" section to the article. Unfortunately, for Germans, this topic is still somewhat ignored, buried away or tabu. Tikru8 ( talk) 11:49, 6 October 2009 (EET)
Locally it is, or has until recent times been, known as: "tomb of the unknown rapist" or "tomb of the unknown plunderer". [1]
User:Beatle Fab Four, please state your concerns [2], preferably after reviewing the discussion at Talk:Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park) -- Stor stark7 Speak 22:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
References
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I hope my additions (which are mostly from memory) are correct, feel free to edit out errors. It would be good if someone could provide a translation of the inscription. Andreas 14:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I am getting it translated. Adam 01:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I am told it means: "Eternal glory to the heroes who fell in battle with the German fascist occupiers for the freedom and independence of the Soviet Union." Adam 02:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The former text reference stated that Soviet guards were routing to and from the memorial "using a side-door of the Brandenburg Gate to get into the western sector at the time of changing of the Guard."
This is incorrect. The memorial stands in Tiergarten district, but Brandenburg Gate stands entirely in the area of Mitte district, which belonged to the Soviet sector. The actual district border which later became first, part the sector border, later, the state border between West-Berlin and the GDR, run about 50 meters westwards from the Gate (in an arched path).
When the sector borders were closed (Berlin Wall), this area was seamlessly closed.The whole building of the Brandenburg Gate was surrounded by the heavily patrolled East German border strip and relatively far (25-50 meters) from the Wall. The Gate, as a grotesque contrast to its name, remained a restricted area and closed, uncrossable in any way, until the fall of the Berlin Wall. After the 13th August, 1961, it was not a crossing point anymore. There was absolutely no crossing, not even for allied military personnel.
There was no point to use any part of the Gate because one would just arrive into the same East German border area, without even approaching the actual border (which lied on the other side of the Wall). There were only a few service/repair "doors" in the Wall (small, slideable concrete panels actually) used by East German border troops to climb out and back (not walk through) to the Western side of the Wall, in order to make repair works. The idea as described by the quoted text is presumably fictional.
The Wall itself stood on East German soil (within the district boundaries of Mitte) and this part of it run totally closed from the river Spree to the next crossing point, Checkpoint Charlie, at the intersection of Zimmerstrasse/Friedrichstrasse.
Soviet military guard units for the memorial used Checkpoint Charlie to enter the Western sectors (American then British), following a strict route, without any stopping, in armored patrol cars. Allied forces could move freely in each others' sectors but they were obliged to check in at allied checkpoints when crossing the sector borders, especially between the Soviet and the Western ones. The area of the memorial was fenced by barbed wire to prevent Soviet guards from defecting.
Therefore, the referred part has been edited out from the article.
I believe at the time of the battle the VVS was not an independent arm, it was under control of the Red Army (like the USAAF was at the time). If that is wrong then I will correct the link. I don't think many members of the Soviet navy were involved. :-) Andreas 16:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The monument has often been referred to as the Grabmal des unbekannten Vergewaltigers and varians thereof in reference to the behavior of the Red Army. [1] I'm just wondering whether it would be a good idea to mention this. ProhibitOnions (T) 16:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The Telegraph article cited doesn't say which Soviet memorial is called "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist." It may be a reference to the Treptower Park memorial, which is also a cemetery. No-one is buried at the Tiergarten memorial. Adam 00:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
That is all fair comment, but here, here and here are sources which refer specifically to East Berlin or Treptower Park. I can't find a reference which links specifically to Tiergarten. ("Grabmal des unbekannten Vergewaltigers" gets no Google hits at all). PS what have you got against onions? Adam 01:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the monument that was known as the "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist." There is no "unknown" buried there, but the idea was taken from the US Tomb of the Unknown in Washington. The term, while not as commonly used today, is still known in the city, and during my recent research for a book about Berlin the subject came up more than once. At least twice I heard women old enough to remember speak of it using that term. While I can't speak directly to what Wiki would say about it, the term is historically accurate...and we could cite Douglas Botting In the Ruins of the Reich along with many other sources.
Personally, I would strongly suggest it be included. It is significant historically, and that perception became one of the big influences on the 1946 city election in which the Communists lost badly. It was part of the events that led to the blockade and Luftbrücke in 1948-49. Wood Artist ( talk) 06:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Cochrane, Allan (2006). Making up meanings in a capital city: power, memory and monuments in Berlin. European Urban and Regional Studies, 13(1), pp. 5–24.
http://oro.open.ac.uk/2879/1/Berlinmeaningsfinal.pdf
Citation: “One condition of the departure of Soviet troops from Berlin was that the Soviet war memorials would be maintained, and the Soviet War Memorial in Treptower Park, with its massive Stalinist structures it remains there inviolate, visited by the occasional tourist. A second memorial, on a slightly smaller scale, is more centrally located in the Tiergarten, incorporating tanks and other heavy weapons, has historically received rather more attention from the local population, attracting the epithet ‘tomb of the unknown rapist’ or ‘tomb of the unknown plunderer’.
Tikru8 11:39, 17 October 2011 (EET)
The article does not explain one thing. How is it possible that this statue is still standing? It is a symbol of enemy and oppressor that forced half of the country under dictatorship for decades. Red army also raped, robbed and killed civilians like berserk barbarians while they destroyed this city. After nazis were defeated many nazi symbols were destroyed, which was good. Now communism is gone but there are still this kinds of monuments hailing to communist dictatorship and crimes - which is extremely weird because Germany is declared democratic country. They could just demolish this temple of horror, like liberated people usually does in such circumstances, but they do not. Tell me why and also add that to the article. 193.167.40.108 15:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Although the monument is very heavy-handed, it was deliberately "in your face" to remind the Germans that they had lost and that the Soviet Union would never allow them to rise again. Probably the only "odd" part is that it was placed in the British occupation zone, although that might well have been intentional too. Stalin fully expected to take over the entire city by pushing the western allies out...which he nearly did. However, it is also true that the Tiergarten was the largest open space where something like this could be easily built, and the red granite used for it came from Hitler's Chancellery, not far away. Seen in the context of the times, it made sense, at least to Stalin. Wood Artist ( talk) 06:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The Soviet Union defended itself out of pure self intrest, and what's this about the Soviet Union fighting for freedom? Every single nation within their occupation zone was repressed for 50 years and made to suffer under dicatorship. Why should Germany of all countries, honour and respect an enemy that indiscrimately raped and murdered Poles and Germans. Yes the Germans performed their own war crimes during their stint in Russia, but that does not excuse Russia, as the soldiers themselves believed. If i were German, especially if I was Prussian, I would be completely offended that this statue still exists. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
142.161.153.104 (
talk)
03:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Coming from a country outside the west and eastern blocks, I was horrified by the location of this monument! I've seen plenty of similar when traveling in ex-USSR but this seems so "in-your-face". A little digging into the past shows that it was a controversial monument especially during the cold war, thus I added a "Controversy" section to the article. Unfortunately, for Germans, this topic is still somewhat ignored, buried away or tabu. Tikru8 ( talk) 11:49, 6 October 2009 (EET)
Locally it is, or has until recent times been, known as: "tomb of the unknown rapist" or "tomb of the unknown plunderer". [1]
User:Beatle Fab Four, please state your concerns [2], preferably after reviewing the discussion at Talk:Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park) -- Stor stark7 Speak 22:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
References