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Archive 1: April 2007 – |
It was only after the Statute Law Revision Act 2007 which repealled the Government of Ireland Act 1920 that Southern Ireland as a political entity was legally abolished. But I have found nothing that says that Southern Ireland as the term for the geographical area that the current Republic of Ireland administers was ever legally abolished. Added to that, Southern Ireland and the Free State is often used when referring to the Republic of Ireland to distinguish it frm Northern Ireland. AlwynJPie ( talk) 02:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Contrary to the article, Souhern Ireland's existence as a political entity did not end on 6 December 1922. Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland became autonomous regions of the newly created Irish Free State on 6 December 1922 under terms of the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922. I cannot find evidence that Southern Ireland ever ended. I speculate that the term Southern Ireland may not have been used because the Free State and the Republic of Ireland claimed sovereignty over the whole island in their constitutions. I would be greatful if someone can shed light on this. AlwynJPie ( talk) 10:39, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The political status of Southern Ireland has changed a few times since the Partition but the term Southern Ireland continues to be used when referring to Ireland even in debates in the UK parliament. Here is a link to one of many examples of UK parliamentary verbatim available where the term Southern Ireland is used for the said context: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmniaf/886/6020107.htm AlwynJPie ( talk) 20:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
The term continues to be used to refer to the independent state. AlwynJPie ( talk) 22:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the present version [1] is nearly all that is needed for the lead, at the top of the article, together with: No Government of Southern Ireland was ever established, although a Provisional Government was established pursuant to the Anglo Irish Treaty. In the narrative sequence of the article, the rest of the present lead, describing what the Act "envisaged", would be better placed to follow the content of the "Home Rule" section, which describes the situation as it was, and then letting the narrative continue with what happened as described in the section "1921 general election". Would that be acceptable? Qexigator ( talk) 00:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Revision now done. [2] -- Qexigator ( talk) 11:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Most people these days use the term Southern Ireland to mean the part of Ireland that is not Northern Ireland, i.e. the Republic of Ireland. Until recently I was unaware Southern Ireland was ever an official name for the larger of the two territories that the island of Ireland was partitioned into; I thought they were named Northern Ireland and the Irish Free State. I was also unaware that initially the Irish Free State covered the whole of Ireland and that Northern Ireland opted out of it. Perhaps the article should deal with the modern meaning and the political entity that was called Southern Ireland should be transfered to another article such as the Government of Southern Ireland. AlwynJPie ( talk) 03:05, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, AlwynJPie. I've now added a link to the disambiguation article for Southern Ireland. Tlhslobus ( talk) 21:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration:
Re this, it might not be a bad idea to move Southern Ireland. The term is far more commonly used to mean either the Irish state or the southern counties of Ireland than it is to refer to an early 20th-century political entity that never existed in fact. Southern Ireland (Autonomous region of the United Kingdom) is a hideous title, as well as being inaccurate, since there are no reliable sources saying that it was such a thing, but possibly "Southern Ireland (Government of Ireland Act 1920)" would be a less awful alternative. I would suggest that "Southern Ireland" should then become a redirect to Republic of Ireland, with an appropriate hatnote on that article. Scolaire ( talk) 15:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Done and done. -- Scolaire ( talk) 14:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Scolaire. I've now added a link to your disambiguation article. Tlhslobus ( talk) 21:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
A part of the lead as of now is original research, relying on subjective interpretation of primary sources. I am replacing it with a single short sentence citing secondary sources (i.e. books). Scolaire ( talk) 18:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Recently there have been several edits on the articles adding Country as the status for Southern Ireland, however there is no source that Southern Ireland was a country. Elevatorrailfan ( talk) 18:34, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
There has been an article about the short-lived UK country called Southern Ireland which existed from 1921-1922 on Wikipedia for years. It was always titled Southern Ireland. Just as its sister country, Northern Ireland is so titled. The short-lived country is referenced hundreds of places on Wikipedia. Recently, on 6 Feb., an editor (i) changed the title to "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)" and (ii) created a dab page for Southern Ireland. This followed a discussion on this page over all of five (yes FIVE) days with no posting being made on the requested moves page.
It is really frustrating that every time we must now properly reference this former UK country we must type "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)|Southern Ireland". This change was entirely unnecessary and is retrograde. Did any editor or reader ever experience confusion on account of its name? Well, if they had, there was a perfectly good hat note at the top of the article. The title the article has had for years should be restored to it. "Southern Ireland" plain and simple. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 00:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Once and for all, Southern Ireland never had any real existence. For a start, the Government of Ireland Act did not even say that there would be a country called Southern Ireland (or for that matter, a country called Northern Ireland). It said there would be a parliament of Southern Ireland. But in effect there never was. Four elected member turned up to the "opening" of the parliament, elected a speaker, and adjourned sine die. There was no executive, as required by the Act. Therefore, there was no country. The 26 counties continued under the Dublin Castle administration until that administration handed over power to the Provisional Government in January 1922. The descriptions should not be similar to those for Northern Ireland because Northern Ireland convened a parliament, elected a government and became a de facto as well as a de jure polity. This lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects, and it uses proper sources, i.e. books, instead of "statutory rules" and "court circulars". Reverting to "the way it was for years" goes against the whole philosophy of Wikipedia, which is about improving articles. Scolaire ( talk) 10:10, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
As mentioned in a recent edit summary [3] calling SI a 'de jure polity' is unsuited to the lead. I do not see that wording sourced anywhere, and 'polity' is an unusual word, which we should avoid if some other wording can be used. Given the bare facts described in the article, would the following revision to the first sentence be acceptable?
That is accurate and suffices when followed by the information which immediately follows. Qexigator ( talk) 18:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure)  — Amakuru ( talk) 14:23, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
– Southern Ireland was the title used on Wikipedia for the former UK country for many years. The country is referenced hundreds of places, mostly in history articles. In February 2015 this was changed to the current arrangement without any discussion on this project page. The change left us with a horendously cumbersome "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)" title page for the country. Now, every time we want to reference the country we have to type "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)|Southern Ireland". There was no real need for a DAB page but I am happy for it to be kept but at its own titled page. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 16:01, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
User:Qexigator, User:Necrothesp, User:The initializer, User:DeCausa, User:Snappy, User talk:Scolaire: Accepting my proposal that the country remain the primary topic has been rejected: Are any of you guys going to fix the hundreds of links that now seem to go to a DAB page: [4]... Great outcome; even when these pages are fixed, there willd doubtless be tonnes more in the future too. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 15:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm reasonably open on this if we have references, However the phrase "Unionists feared that a nationalist government in Dublin would discriminate against Protestants and would impose tariffs that would unduly hit the north-eastern counties of the province of Ulster" obviously includes Rome Rule, bit it is less clear that it is confined to that. Discrimination is not the same thing as subjugation to the rule of a Church.---- Snowded TALK 15:09, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Snowded, some admins may consider this article to come under the Troubles-related restrictions. You've reverted twice in less than 15 minutes. Gob Lofa ( talk) 15:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Did it have any kind of flag? I've seen at least one article ( History of Ireland (1801–1923)) linking to here that uses the Union Jack as its flag, which seems odd and quite likely wrong, as we don't get that for links to other parts of the UK, except occasionally Northern Ireland (probably incorrectly since NI has its own Red Hand of Ulster flag, which is used everywhere else in Wikipedia). Tlhslobus ( talk) 21:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
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Archive 1: April 2007 – |
It was only after the Statute Law Revision Act 2007 which repealled the Government of Ireland Act 1920 that Southern Ireland as a political entity was legally abolished. But I have found nothing that says that Southern Ireland as the term for the geographical area that the current Republic of Ireland administers was ever legally abolished. Added to that, Southern Ireland and the Free State is often used when referring to the Republic of Ireland to distinguish it frm Northern Ireland. AlwynJPie ( talk) 02:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Contrary to the article, Souhern Ireland's existence as a political entity did not end on 6 December 1922. Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland became autonomous regions of the newly created Irish Free State on 6 December 1922 under terms of the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922. I cannot find evidence that Southern Ireland ever ended. I speculate that the term Southern Ireland may not have been used because the Free State and the Republic of Ireland claimed sovereignty over the whole island in their constitutions. I would be greatful if someone can shed light on this. AlwynJPie ( talk) 10:39, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The political status of Southern Ireland has changed a few times since the Partition but the term Southern Ireland continues to be used when referring to Ireland even in debates in the UK parliament. Here is a link to one of many examples of UK parliamentary verbatim available where the term Southern Ireland is used for the said context: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmniaf/886/6020107.htm AlwynJPie ( talk) 20:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
The term continues to be used to refer to the independent state. AlwynJPie ( talk) 22:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the present version [1] is nearly all that is needed for the lead, at the top of the article, together with: No Government of Southern Ireland was ever established, although a Provisional Government was established pursuant to the Anglo Irish Treaty. In the narrative sequence of the article, the rest of the present lead, describing what the Act "envisaged", would be better placed to follow the content of the "Home Rule" section, which describes the situation as it was, and then letting the narrative continue with what happened as described in the section "1921 general election". Would that be acceptable? Qexigator ( talk) 00:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Revision now done. [2] -- Qexigator ( talk) 11:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Most people these days use the term Southern Ireland to mean the part of Ireland that is not Northern Ireland, i.e. the Republic of Ireland. Until recently I was unaware Southern Ireland was ever an official name for the larger of the two territories that the island of Ireland was partitioned into; I thought they were named Northern Ireland and the Irish Free State. I was also unaware that initially the Irish Free State covered the whole of Ireland and that Northern Ireland opted out of it. Perhaps the article should deal with the modern meaning and the political entity that was called Southern Ireland should be transfered to another article such as the Government of Southern Ireland. AlwynJPie ( talk) 03:05, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, AlwynJPie. I've now added a link to the disambiguation article for Southern Ireland. Tlhslobus ( talk) 21:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration:
Re this, it might not be a bad idea to move Southern Ireland. The term is far more commonly used to mean either the Irish state or the southern counties of Ireland than it is to refer to an early 20th-century political entity that never existed in fact. Southern Ireland (Autonomous region of the United Kingdom) is a hideous title, as well as being inaccurate, since there are no reliable sources saying that it was such a thing, but possibly "Southern Ireland (Government of Ireland Act 1920)" would be a less awful alternative. I would suggest that "Southern Ireland" should then become a redirect to Republic of Ireland, with an appropriate hatnote on that article. Scolaire ( talk) 15:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Done and done. -- Scolaire ( talk) 14:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Scolaire. I've now added a link to your disambiguation article. Tlhslobus ( talk) 21:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
A part of the lead as of now is original research, relying on subjective interpretation of primary sources. I am replacing it with a single short sentence citing secondary sources (i.e. books). Scolaire ( talk) 18:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Recently there have been several edits on the articles adding Country as the status for Southern Ireland, however there is no source that Southern Ireland was a country. Elevatorrailfan ( talk) 18:34, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
There has been an article about the short-lived UK country called Southern Ireland which existed from 1921-1922 on Wikipedia for years. It was always titled Southern Ireland. Just as its sister country, Northern Ireland is so titled. The short-lived country is referenced hundreds of places on Wikipedia. Recently, on 6 Feb., an editor (i) changed the title to "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)" and (ii) created a dab page for Southern Ireland. This followed a discussion on this page over all of five (yes FIVE) days with no posting being made on the requested moves page.
It is really frustrating that every time we must now properly reference this former UK country we must type "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)|Southern Ireland". This change was entirely unnecessary and is retrograde. Did any editor or reader ever experience confusion on account of its name? Well, if they had, there was a perfectly good hat note at the top of the article. The title the article has had for years should be restored to it. "Southern Ireland" plain and simple. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 00:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Once and for all, Southern Ireland never had any real existence. For a start, the Government of Ireland Act did not even say that there would be a country called Southern Ireland (or for that matter, a country called Northern Ireland). It said there would be a parliament of Southern Ireland. But in effect there never was. Four elected member turned up to the "opening" of the parliament, elected a speaker, and adjourned sine die. There was no executive, as required by the Act. Therefore, there was no country. The 26 counties continued under the Dublin Castle administration until that administration handed over power to the Provisional Government in January 1922. The descriptions should not be similar to those for Northern Ireland because Northern Ireland convened a parliament, elected a government and became a de facto as well as a de jure polity. This lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects, and it uses proper sources, i.e. books, instead of "statutory rules" and "court circulars". Reverting to "the way it was for years" goes against the whole philosophy of Wikipedia, which is about improving articles. Scolaire ( talk) 10:10, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
As mentioned in a recent edit summary [3] calling SI a 'de jure polity' is unsuited to the lead. I do not see that wording sourced anywhere, and 'polity' is an unusual word, which we should avoid if some other wording can be used. Given the bare facts described in the article, would the following revision to the first sentence be acceptable?
That is accurate and suffices when followed by the information which immediately follows. Qexigator ( talk) 18:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure)  — Amakuru ( talk) 14:23, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
– Southern Ireland was the title used on Wikipedia for the former UK country for many years. The country is referenced hundreds of places, mostly in history articles. In February 2015 this was changed to the current arrangement without any discussion on this project page. The change left us with a horendously cumbersome "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)" title page for the country. Now, every time we want to reference the country we have to type "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)|Southern Ireland". There was no real need for a DAB page but I am happy for it to be kept but at its own titled page. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 16:01, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
User:Qexigator, User:Necrothesp, User:The initializer, User:DeCausa, User:Snappy, User talk:Scolaire: Accepting my proposal that the country remain the primary topic has been rejected: Are any of you guys going to fix the hundreds of links that now seem to go to a DAB page: [4]... Great outcome; even when these pages are fixed, there willd doubtless be tonnes more in the future too. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 15:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm reasonably open on this if we have references, However the phrase "Unionists feared that a nationalist government in Dublin would discriminate against Protestants and would impose tariffs that would unduly hit the north-eastern counties of the province of Ulster" obviously includes Rome Rule, bit it is less clear that it is confined to that. Discrimination is not the same thing as subjugation to the rule of a Church.---- Snowded TALK 15:09, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Snowded, some admins may consider this article to come under the Troubles-related restrictions. You've reverted twice in less than 15 minutes. Gob Lofa ( talk) 15:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Did it have any kind of flag? I've seen at least one article ( History of Ireland (1801–1923)) linking to here that uses the Union Jack as its flag, which seems odd and quite likely wrong, as we don't get that for links to other parts of the UK, except occasionally Northern Ireland (probably incorrectly since NI has its own Red Hand of Ulster flag, which is used everywhere else in Wikipedia). Tlhslobus ( talk) 21:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)