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A small point this, not directly related to the subject matter, but what does this sentence mean?
"The South was known for being largely settled by English from the West Midlands - the West Country. (The West Country dialect of Britain is also very similar to the Southern dialects.)"
Is it implying that West Midlands (of England) and West Country (of England) are synonymous? If so then this is very much mistaken. Both regions have very distinct, but quite different, accents associated with them.-- 81.153.216.201 22:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Question: What are some historical roots of the Southern American English dialect, if any?
At a recent conference on English Dialects of the Carolinas, Sociolingist Dr. Walt Wolfram conceded that although southern English shares commonalities with British English, as you noted, it was greatly influenced by Scots-Irish settlers in the region, but, interestingly, that the most salient differences between Southern American English and other varieties of American English have actually developed since the Civil War.
In places that have been more geographically isolated, these differences are more pronounced today. The Coastal Carolinas and the Sea "Gullah" Islands of South Georgia, as well as many areas of Appalachia are good examples of such isolation. Only in the Ocracoke Brogue of the Carolina coast can we here any connection to the English of Sussex. Frazzled 22:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled
Who calls grocery carts a "buggy"? I don't doubt that some do, but I am from the Gulf Coast and have never heard a grocery cart called that before. It might be a subregional thing. Also, "done" instead of "already" is only common in uneducated dialect, as far as I know. To mention that as part of southern dialect would be analogous to saying the U.S. northeastern dialect puts 'you' with 'was', e.g. "You was wrong." Mauvila 07:58, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The use of "buggy" for supermarket cart is widespread in Southern Appalachian English. To speak of "Southern English" as a homogenous dialect would be akin to referring to the English language as consisting only of the Queen's variety. [Frazzled]
I've never heard "buggy" or "we done did this" and I'm from Georgia. It does seem to be the kind of thing that would distinguish "plantation" or "educated" accents from "common" or "redneck" accents. Haverton 17:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
Varieties of Dialects are not only distinguished by region but (as you so crassly asserted) by social class. Indeed what is "common" then would be what is most widespread, not what is necessarily espoused by the educated or the elite. Thus, "done" is common (as in "you done said the wrong thing") as is the use of the double modal (e.g., "you might could think, but you ain't got the proper equipment"). Please do educate yourself: accent is merely one part of dialect; the part under disucssion here is vocabulary, which I think all will agree is the most interesting and colorful aspect of language. Unfortunately, the prejudiced you eschew I presume to interpret as your wanting us all to speak "McEnglish." Well, sorry to tell ya, pal, but I reckon it ain't gonna happen. Frazzled 21:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled.
I live on the eastern Mississippi Gulf Coast, not too far from Mobile, AL and "buggy" is the common word here for shopping carts. CelticJobber 3:19, 23 March, 2006 (UTC)
Lived in Savannah, GA for several years and they used the word "buggy" all the time. As in "My friend carried me to the Pig and helped me find a buggy." Brynna 05:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
As a native Arkansan, I must say that the use of buggy is extremely widespread, even in the "affluent" areas of Little Rock and NW Arkansas (Fayetteville, Bentonville). To say shopping cart would sound weird to me.
My dialectal background is coastal Virginia & Georgia, and I'm surprised to find that "buggy" is considered a regional word. I thought it was in universal usage.
Angr, if you're reading this: you added Mary to the merry-marry section. Is this something you know for certain? I was pretty sure that the typical Southern pattern was to merge two but keep the other distinct, not to maintain a three-way distinction. AJD 17:36, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid I can't tell the difference between these three words. I was born in the Ohio river valley in Indiana and grew up in Houston. --dude
For me, these 3 have the same pronunciation, although my father distinguished "Mary" as having a long /a/ sound. We speak a variety of Southern Appalachian English.
Frazzled
21:48, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled.
I grew up in Houston, and Mary, Merry, and Marry all have the same pronunciation there. The only person I knew who said 'Mary' differently than that was a British woman named Mary. - VirgilOrion
In re: the edit by 64.16.181.63, who wrote: I have never heard "we'uns" in my life except out of northern people that want to make fun of southern people that use "you'uns" in their speech. As a southern speaker, I find this quite offensive.
I never knew my father's parents, who passed on some 8 years before I was born; but I have two letters his mother wrote that contain many "youens." She was born in 1870 in West Virginia's Monongahela County.
My parents are from Wayne County, Southern Illinois and both use the word "you'uns." I've also heard it from people in and around Springfield, Columbia, and Jefferson City, MO due to the fact that I'm an Internet support rep for a major cable company in that area. However, when I lived in Savannah, GA I never heard anyone using it, nor have I heard anyone from the Deep South use it on the phone.
Brynna
05:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
You'uns is a famously Appalachian and Ozark feature that it is uncommon near the Coastal South. It also has a famous Pittsburgh variant, "yinz".
Drowneded? I've lived in several parts of the south and never heard this word, which an anon added to the word use section. I'm deleting it unless there's concensous to keep it. Sayeth 02:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
I've heard it used by many Southerners for the past tense/participle of drown. I'm putting it back where it was, Smith
Ever Heard Bob Dylan's song "When the Ship comes in?"(c1963) "Then they'll raise their hands, Sayin' we'll meet all your demands, But we'll shout from the bow your days are numbered. And like Pharaoh's tribe, They'll be drownded in the tide, And like Goliath, they'll be conquered." Frazzled 15:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)frazzled
Growing up in Houston, everyone said "drownded", and I honestly can not recall the actual grammatically correct. - VirgilOrion
It is all explained at: http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/drgw006.html
Rather than discuss individual words, why not just link to http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/southernese.html All this work has already been done by professionals.
Drownded is quite common in North Carolina.
I've disovered (at least in "rural" lake county, FL), that "y'all" is Singular!. It's "all y'alls" or "alls y'alls" for the plural. For example, you go into an Apopka restaurant, and the server will ask "Has alls y'alls decided whatcha fixin' ta eat?" Swirsky 14:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've lived in the South all of my life, and I know that "y'all" always refurs to more then one person.
I've heard both "y'all" and "y'alls" but they were always referring to the plural - VirgilOrion
I agree...y'all has always been plural to my knowledge. However, I've heard may people (in Southern Appalacia) say "We'll see ya later," when, in fact, the "We" is only one person.
This is how I've always heard understood and heard "y'all" being used (using, for instance, a university baseball team)
The last is the one that confuses most people and causes them to think it is being used in the singular, but it's not. You cannot say "I went to y'all's house" to someone who lives alone. If you say it to someone who lives with someone else, even though the both of them are not present, you still end up to the individual as part of the greater whole.
In Tidewater Virginia, where I grew up, one of the dialect markers is something similar to Canadian raising. My wife, a New Englander, used to hear my parents' "about" as "aboot". I'm not a linguist, and know little about documented studies of American accents, so I'm reluctant to add this to the article (plus, it may be a regional distinction that's dying out). Do any Wikipedians with more linguistic training know anything about this Virginia "ou"? — Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Speakers of this Virginia dialect also pronounce "tomato" as "t'-MAH-duh", for what little that may be worth. Sorry that I'm not fluent in IPA, or I'd be more precise about these pronounciations. — Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the older Tidewater generation still pronouces the "ou" as aboot, hoose (house), roote (route), but its not as sharp or pronounced as the Canadian vowel raising. To my ears, its in between the two pronunciations.
In fact, Southerners not only never confuse "you" with "y'all", but in most areas "y'all" has become a plural 2nd person singular pronoun (yall) with its own possessive (yalls), the possession of which is sometimes even doubled (yallses) as the past tense is doubled in "drownded". An influential discussion written by a linguist who was born and raised in North Carolina may be found at http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/drgw006.html. The reason Northerns cannot understand this usage is that they do not understand Southern culture: it is impolite to single individuals out of the group they belong to as someone above has correctly pointed out. To invite one member of a family to your home is offensive. "Yall come" may be uttered to an individual but it always applies to his or her entire family. The article above explains everything discussed here.
Rather than try to list all the thousands of elements of southern US regional dialects, why not just link to a page by a professional linguist born and raised in the South who has already made up a list that characterizes the dialect rather fairly if humorously: http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/southernese.html
Maybe I am just crazy, but I find this whole concept rather absurd. I am from the deep south, live in the not-as-deep-but-more-coastal south, and lived in New England for a couple of years. I am sorry to guffaw at the linguists, but southern drawl is nothing more than a few words that are pronounced differently along with a couple of regionally affiliated slang terms. I don't speak a different dialect, I just have an accent. -- Coldbourne 10:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I have made an edit of the Word Use section so that it is divided into word use and grammar. I also added a few different grammar points. Most of the new information comes from English in the United States (2003).
Southern American English to Southern Drawl. The Southern Drawl is the more common name for the dialect, so the article should be moved there. Robot32 23:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
CMcLewin 21:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
"The Southern Appalachian dialect is, among all the dialects of American English, the one most closely related to the Scots dialect of English (see Scots language, Ulster Scots language)." It doesn't sound very Scots. Any sources to back up this tenuous claim?
No, there's no evidence of this. I compared some Scottish Gaelic phrases to Appalachian English phrases just as a reference point in the entry I wrote for Appalachian English, but this should not be taken as proof that there is any similarity. The Scots who moved to Appalachia were mainly from the Lowlands, and thus were monolingual English speakers, not Gaelic speakers. I think the Gaelic speakers retreated into the Highlands of Scotland. 63.23.9.77 03:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Scots refers to the Emglish dialect spoken in Scotland. Comparisons with Gaelic is useless.
Shouldn't this be Southern United States English? Southern American implies South America. It's actually southern only in the context of the United States. Ken 23:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
== Naming... == (from the Southern literature talk-page) Shouldn't this page be called Southern-American literature rather than simply Southern literature? -- 205.188.117.6 05:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Would someone go and change the main Southern literature page name and have it redirect to the proper Southern American literature page? If this page is called " Southern American English," shouldn't the other be called " Southern American literature"? Southern literature is far too broad and could apply to many-many countries...thanks. -- 205.188.116.7 07:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The word "reckon" which is often used in the South in the place of the words "think", "suppose", or "guess" needs to be mentioned in this article. An example of "reckon's" usage: "I reckon I'd better stop speeding, or I might get pulled over."
The main difference in dialects of Southern American English would be Geography. The Inland-Southern accents are very similar and can't really be distinguished from. Most of North-central GA,AL,MS, North LA, Central to Southern ARK, East and parts of North Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, and the piedmonts of SC and NC. All have the typical Southern Accent we think of or that hollywood galmourized. Also noted Some parts of North Florida have similar accents among local residents as well as secluded parts of Southern GA and AL. The coastal dialect is probally the older dialect deriving from the colonial settlers rather than Scotch-Irish and working-class English immigrants. This dialect usually is spoken in the higher classes of southern society a great example of this would be in the Atlanta area; in blue collar communities the thicker inland accent is common but in the city among the distinguished residents the old coastal dialect is heard resembling the plantation society of the lowlands. Done, fixin, ain't, "cain't", boy, folks, are commonly used in the inlands. Also African-American vernacular had a large influence on this accent as well due to the closeness with the poor whites of the south as they share cropped side by side, several pronunciations and words were exchanged. Other dialects can be categorized as Southern American English as well for example: Southern Illinios, Extreme Southern Missouri, and well into Indiana accents are very similar to those of the south. The explanation of this is in Indiana and in Southern Illinios is due to the migration of a substantial amount of poor whites to the area from MS, TN, AL, KY, and to a smaller part Georgia and Arkansas. However in Missouri it was probally derived from the area. These accents are NOT RELATED TO ANY PART OF THE MIDWEST FROM LINGUISTICAL RESEARCH. The Texas accent is somewhat of a blend. Texas was settled by settlers from the State of Georgia ( included MS and AL at the time) and the Tennessee frontier. when opened to settlement by the spanish. As immigrants from Germanic and Slavic languages settled into central Texas the dialects began to blend. Then the promise of Texas success to Americans in the North brang the third influence. But the strong majority which is present in speech comes from the original settlers of Texas.
The accents how ever are not from celtic origins and have no relations to the language of Gaelic, But are rather close to Old English. Due to cultural and settlement influences from Germanic tribes of the Isles of Britian. Many typical Germanic pronunciations were dropped with other influences.
A question about the Texas accent: I grew up in Houston, and then moved to the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I've noticed a few differences in vocabulary. For instance, the way Houstonians pronounce the name of their own city. You could easily tell who was a native or not by the way they pronounced Houston with a "y" sound instead of the "h" sound. A slight blur between an "e" and "o" follows it up. Texas, or Houston at least, was also gaining a strong influence from Mexican-Spanish, mostly in vocabulary. Going out into the country a bit more, a slight Germanic influence is there, mostly due to the large amount of Czech settlers. My grandparents, and others their age, don't have what I'd considered even a slight Southeran American-English accent or vocabulary. Certainly a more older version of the current Texan way of speak though. Honestly, the typical Southeran American English, from any region, sounds nearly foreign to me, in the same way that accents from New York or California do. Is the Texas accent/vocabulary within a few decades of becoming its own dialect? - VirgilOrion
I wish Arkansas was discussed more in this article, I think we have one of the most varied situations. People from southwestern Arkansans (Like Texarkana, my home city) can sound like anything from Cajun to Texan to Mississippi Deltan, Eastern Arkansans usually speak the Inland dialect most associated with the typical southern accent. People from Little Rock have their own little accent, too. Also, it seems that cities immediately south of LR (Benton, Arkadelphia) still sound like they speak Inland/Mississippi Deltan, but people in cities immediately north (Conway, Russelville) sound more like NW Arkansans who speak differently (Almost no accent, at least the educated people!). Here in NW Arkansas, there are many college students and business professionals (Wal-Mart is headquartered here) as well as people from the bigger cities in Missouri (who speak more midwestern and use more metropolitan words). Therefore, there are almost no distinguishing accents for this area. (Until, however, you head east towards Mountain Home and Jonesboro, where they, in my opinion, have a whole different way of speaking; probably influenced by the accents of Kentucky and Tennessee).
Sorry for the length, I just thought it was interesting.
Many people believe that a dialect close to that of Elizabethan English is spoken in remote parts of the Appalachians. The idea has currency because it is attractive and compelling. It demonstrates a yearning for a sense of historical longevity within a young country; it lends comfort to those who wish to emphasise the Anglo-Saxon nature of America's cultural origins in the face of its ethnic diversity; it confirms the "backwoods" stereotype. However, it is merely a cultural myth; there is no linguistc evidence to support it. This myth has spread through the writings of jounalists rather than the writings of the well-informed. It should not be perpetuated in this article.
^Show evidence supporting your case or you'll just continue to be ignored. There's plenty of evidence supporting a conection between Elizabethan English and the English spoken in the Appalachians. It's just that Elizabethan English had numerous dialects (Hiberno-English is very much an Elizabethan dialect), just as PDE has numerous dialects. Furthermore, language is an organic thing. Certainly, the Appalachian dialect may not be exactly what the first settlers spoke, but that doesn't mean it's grown far apart. If all you're going off of is books you've read, in their original form, from the 15-1600's then you're an idiot. It's a known fact that what was written was not what was spoken and that we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke.
^Do I need to point out that it shouldn't be up to me to provide evidence to support a negative. On the other hand, anyone who espouses this theory had better come up with something compelling, hadn't they? The trouble is, nobody has. It is not just a lack of empirical linguistic evidence that stands in the way of this theory; it just doesn't hold water. Firstly, no Elizabethan settlement survived in North America. Jamestown, Virginia (the first permanent colony) was formed under the reign of James I. Furthermore, Europeans have populated the southern mountains for only about 200 years, so how did they manage to preserve their "Elizabethan" (or should that be "Jacobean") dialect during the intervening 200 years? Secondly, exactly what counts as speaking "Elizabethan"? If you go to England and visit the county of South Yorkshire, you will find that the inhabitants use the archaic pronouns "thee" and "thou". Why doesn't anyone accuse them of having preserved "Elizabethan" English? The answer is because archaic speech is not unusual. Archaisms are used throughout the English speaking world: they do not constitute evidence that a dialect has been preserved in any special way. It is claimed that the Appalachian dialect has been preserved by the isolation of its speakers, but no one could claim that South Yorkshire towns like Sheffield or Barnsley are isolated places. If Appalachian speech does contain archaisms, what makes it more "Elizabethan" than the multitude of other dialects which use lexical items or grammatical patterns that were also around back then? Finally, if "we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke (sic)" then how can anyone assert that modern people speak like them? That is illogical, Captain! I'm afraid that written texts are all we have as evidence for Elizabethan speech. What else do you propose we use as evidence? Sir Walter Ralegh's ipod?
I recently saw my addition Inversion of indefinite pronouns: "everwhere", "everwhat", etc., in place of "wherever", "whatever" in word use was removed by a random IPer for being "a joke". I'm sorry, has he or she ever been in the South? This is still said with relative frequency and mentioned in many conference proceedings I've been to on linguistics.
I have not read the 1860 consensus, but I can certainly tell you that the South is very much an Anglo-Saxon area. Sure, it wasn't solely settled by English from the West Midlands, but it is not primarily Celtic, nor is the West Midlands a Celtic region. The stupidty would be excusable except that this is a text that is otherwise very professional and Wikipedia is itself a credible on-line source. The South is AngloSaxon. If you want to contend that there's a strong Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scot (that is not the same as "Irish") influence then o.k., but those really aren't a truly Celtic people, either. Well, whatever, I fixed it, but from now on may we keep to fact and not to peronal musings.
Where I live in coastal Mississippi, it's common especially for older people to pronounce the "s" at the end of the word tastes, so that it sounds more like "taste-is". An example would be "This tea tastes good". Has anyone else heard it pronounced this way in another part of this South? Would this use be appropriate to add onto this entry? CJ
In my opinion, this article should cite literary examples from famous works written in a Southern dialect for examples of speech. Many writers write in a very phonetic fashion when a character is speaking in Southern, and accurately shows the manner of speach. One obvious example of a source to quote from would be Faulker's works, but there are plenty of other good sources for this as well. Also, this has the additional benefit of being a reliable source, making the need for citing additional references unneeded. -- SeizureDog 01:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I rephrased the following from Different Southern American English dialects/Midland & Highland/South Midland or Highland Southern (it was the last phrase of the first paragraph):
If someone would like to change this back, please include references to scholarly, peer-reviewed works which back up this claim and/or provide specific examples. Here are my references for changing it:
Basically, I see the point of the myth as pointing out that this dialect of SAE has evolved in a way that is slightly different from General American English over the last few centuries. But to point out that it retains features of EME is to imply that Standard American English does not retain any of its features. Simply put, Standard American English and Southern American English have both retained a number of elements of EME--many of these elements are the same, a few are not. If someone would like to fix the weasel words or simply remove the sentence altogether, be my guest! JordeeBec 19:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
George W. Bush speaks Southern American English, doesn't he? If so, let's add him in that paragraph where the article mentions US presidents that spoke SAE. Clinevol98 19:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It always sounds to me like his accent is forced. His pedigree is New England blueblood, and he was born somewhere up there. Additionally, his entire family was from there, and his parents did not have Southern accents. It could be acquired during his youth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.221.221 ( talk • contribs) 11:27, July 20, 2006 (UTC)
He moved to Midland, Texas when he was 6, so I doubt he took much of his accent from New England. The fact that you don't like him doesn't change the fact that he speaks with an accent which can generally be described as Southern American English. -- 209.30.58.229 06:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
If the Philadelphia accent is really close to New Jersey / New York as stated by the wiki link, then surely Baltimore natives do not speak it. (I'm a native.) Wikiwikiwikiwikiwikiwiki 16:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm from Kentucky. GangstaEB~( penguin logs) 00:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I added some sub-sections under Grammar and Phonology because both blocks were simply to massive, and there was already a distinction being made between Older and Newer SAE. For readability's sake, I also changed the way the grammar examples were cited. Good or bad? --Sept. 27th
I'm curious as to whether any other Southerner's pronounce the "t"s in words like "milton", "fighting", "fulton", and other such words as little more than some sort of glottal stop before the proceeding vowel, and also as to whether this phenomenon occurs elsewhere. I know it's quite common in the Peidmont region of Georgia amongst non-yankee speakers, if anything. Should this be added to the pronunciation section?
According to the book "The Story of English" by Krumm, the Southen Accent was heavily influenced by French via Lousiana. Note how some southerners pronounce "sing" as "sang" Consider how the "i" in the French word "Moulin" is prounounced. It is very similar to English "a" in father!
I understand that the Word Usage section has a disclaimer stating that many of these phrases aren't sourced, but I think that the exclusion of those items needing citation should seriously be considered until sources are verified. I was born and raised on the Mississippi Coast, have many relatives across the Southeast and in Texas, and currently attend school at the University of Mississippi, which has a notable variety of SAE dialects from across the SAE spoken region. Those being my only credentials, I couldn't swallow this section. The phrases mentioned in this section are NOT in widespread usage among all dialects of SAE, and many of them could/should be considered part of Older SAE, associated by many my age with rural dialects and more importantly with the elderly.
I can imagine that some of these phrases and word usages may have survived in different regions, but it has to be at varying degrees. For example- I have never used the words "yonder," "reckon" or "young'un"; used the words "carry" or "tote" in the manner suggested in the article; the phrases "to tump over" or "to chuck"; the "wasn't"/"doesn't" forms "wudn't"/"dudn't"; or the use of singular nouns as if they were plural. These are associated with older generations and rural speech patterns. But I have used the word "buggy" for "push-cart," which is something that many speakers of SAE do not say anymore, especially in urban areas. The word "mash" is also not used, as far as I am aware, simply as a substitute for "press" or "push" but as a word of emphasis more likened to "excessive force" as in "I mashed my finger with the hammer."
My proposition is that even if there are cited, reliable sources for these word phrases, that it be considered an objective to research where these are used more frequently as it can be argued their usage as a whole is not characteristic of SAE, but more probable only regional sub-dialects within SAE. And that even such sources as Harvard Dialect Survey do not take into account the differences between Older and Newer SAE but are general questions that relate the answers given to the specific areas where the questions were asked, not the actual dialect spoken which can be diverse depending on where one grew up and where one now resides. (If this is an incorrect analysis, I truly am sorry, but it's what I can gather from the reference site provided.)
I am not an expert in this field, so I can only offer observable data to discuss, and would be very interested to see why an expert would disagree. I was just genuinely shocked that such words considered "Old South" by younger generations would be bundled up with more contemporary SAE usage without distinction.
Also, the usage of "mosquito hawk" and "snake doctor" do not refer to "dragonfly" and "crane fly" interchangeably with anyone I have met, and the article suggests- perhaps because of word placement- that it can be. However, I wouldn't doubt that it does in some areas. I understand that this isn't reliable sourcing but original research, but the common use of "mosquito hawk" only refers to "crane flys" and a "snake doctor" is a "dragonfly" as far as I'm aware. 207.68.251.25 21:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)jlseal
Please do not contibute original research (i.e. one's own thoughts or ideas) to Wikipedia (especially to linguistics articles). Doing so is against Wikipedia policy ( WP:NOR).
Aside from that fact, just "living in an area" for a long time does not make one an expert on dialect(s). There are too many variables to consider (including the influence of mass media, popular culture, and the 20th Century advent of easily-accessible rapid transit). Unless you are trained and educated in the subject of linguistics, your unqualified opinions may serve to only add confusion to an already complex subject. "I've never heard..." or "I've always heard..." does not cut it.
If you do have contributions to make, please make sure they are referenced. ++ Arx Fortis 07:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Umm I don't know if any of these map makers have ever been to Western Kentucky it's undoubtibly the most Southern area of the states yet it's not shaded on this map. Also people consider Southern Illinois Southern in Dialect, yet the area below the mason dixon line isn't shaded Southern???? can some one say FLAW
http://www.geocities.com/yvain.geo/diausa.gif
http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/images/dialectsus.gif
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap2.GIF
http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialMap.gif
http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/mapping/map.html
http://www.msu.edu/~preston/LAVIS.pdf
http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialLnx.html
Here's a few maps I think yall should find interesting
Do linguists use the term "Southern American English"? I tried doing some google research on this before and I remember that I found that there were only a few linguists who used that term. Even if the term is legit (and I'd like to see some proof that it is), I don't think the article should use the abbreviation "SAE", because isn't that customarily used to stand for "Standard American English"? And what is this older/newer "SAE" distinction? Where does that come from? It seems to be entirely original research. schi talk 00:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Over the next day or so I will be reasearching the assertions made in the Word Use section. Those for which a reference can be found will be moved above the "unsourcedsect" tag. ++ Arx Fortis 01:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is another map that is better than the one that is currently on the site. It too is based on Labov's work. It shows the totality of what he and his team at UPenn consider "Southern English," not just one dialectal trait. It is similiar to the map on the page, but includes a few more areas. I don't know how to make Wiki-maps but I will work on learning how, if anyone wants to try their hand at it instead, here it is. http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html Here is the page the map is from http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html Lasersnake 19:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
A better map needs to be on this article. The southern dialect is heard all over Oklahoma; not just the bottom sliver as the map suggests. I recommend using the one from PBS. I actually worked with the professors who researched it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.47.197.247 ( talk • contribs) 23:17, 30 January 2007 UTC
I have a problem with the Western Kentucky, Southern Indiana, and SOuthern Illinois areas of the current map. A few credible sources have been posted above on this talk page that lables those areas as Southern. From personal experience those are the most Southern areas of the state of Kentucky (this is personal experience). A few of those maps also lable Southern Indiana (across from Louisville) as part of the Southern dialect range too. 74.128.200.135 02:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Angr, I found this map http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap1.html Is it the one you used to base your Wikimap? I see what you mean that Labov only used the monophthongization of "ay" to define the Southern dialect region. I think that means the map I suggested is the same map that is used to make your wiki-map. I guess my suggestion is that the shaded line on your wikimap be moved a little north to include the parts of Southern Maryland more of W.Va that are included on the Labov map. A wiki-editor found your map and used it as evidence that the Southern dialect was not spoken in MD, when I think we both agree that Labov does include it. Thanks for the clarification and the good work on the maps. Lasersnake 17:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I guess it is splitting hairs as to whether the isogloss should be 50 miles further north or south since, as you say, their was no samples from that area anyway. I can live with a little imprecision. Thanks for letting me know how you came to your conclusion.
Lasersnake
20:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I personally don't care which map is used as long as we reach a consensus on the map and then agree to stop changing the map every few months. All the Southern articles suffer from this map-change itis. And to be honest, the changes usually aren't that big a deal.-- Alabamaboy 20:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to tell you that I am from southern ohio trans-planted Southerner like the majority here. most people from southern ohio has some type of southern dialect & ancestry.Most of the early settlers of southern ohio in the 18th & early19th century came from Virginia,Kentucky. Later in the 1940's to 1980's a huge immigration of Southern appalachian's moved to southern ohio for work making southern ohio's dialect a much stronger southern dialect,southern culture,southern christianity this is even more true out in the rural areas but also in big cities such as North-Dayton,East-Dayton
Fairborn,Xenia,Moraine,Middletown,Fairfield,Hamilton. I assure you if you come to the rural areas of southern-ohio try Hillboro rockyfork-lake area & you see southern conservative churches everywhere when you smell constant hickory-smoke in the air and everyone wearing boots & when you approach us you will feel the southern-hospitality you will know that we are not northerners, but southerners by all means. CelticPete March,20,2007
Why is Florida not included? Rhythmnation2004 21:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Florida is not part of the map because not all but most people from Florida are not even southern they are trans-planted northeasterners from NewYork,New Jersey etc, in fact south coastal Florida has no difference in dialect comparred to a Bostonian or New york/Jersey dialect.
The name Southern American English indicated it was English from South America which is wrong, hence the change. Please dont revert to a title as ambiguous as it was, SqueakBox 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Well the debate didnt look like there was a consensus and it nmay not be umnambiguous to Americans but it is to everyone else. Your use of admin rollback also seems like a personal attack as if you are treatingm yme like a vandal or someone who doesnt understand how wikipedia works. Such an attitude is unhelpful. I'll stick an NPOV tag on the article till this gets resolved, SqueakBox 23:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Hardly new, though. Rastafarianism had a dispute tag for 6 months before it was changed to Rastafari movement because of the name. It is also clear from the archive that I am not the only person who has trouble with this. We call the US United States not America and its not what Latin Americans think but the fact that the term is highly ambiguous to any Non Northern American English speaker. We've been here before with different words in Brit and American English, and IMO it is important to find a title that is unambiguous. What do other people think? SqueakBox 23:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
What, exactly, about the article does not confirm to a Neutral Point of View? Dewrad 23:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Southern America redirects, correctly IMO, to South America. This article name is thus implying that we are talking about the English found in South America (Falklands, Guyana) and this name is an anomaly, perhaps needing an article Rfc,though I would ahve thought a com promise name would be the best solution, SqueakBox 01:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I assumed that it was actually called Southern. I got brought here because I speak southern UK English which is alsoo uniformly called a southern accent. How about Southern US English? I honestly feel the title is ambiguouis, the most ambiguous title I have conme across here in wikipedia pretty much. I dont agree that changing an ambiguous title could be considered original research esp given angr has said that what it is actually called is southern English, SqueakBox 14:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not unusual in English for a cardinal direction (east, south, north, west) used as a modifer to have a completely different meaning than the adjective (eastern, southern, northern, western) form of the direction used a modifer to the same noun. Examples include
West Virgina (the state) and Western Virginia (a part of the state of Virginia)
South Africa (the country) and Southern Africa (the large geographic region of the continent)
So really there is nothing strange or abhorant about South America (the continent) and Southern America (a cultural region of the US) having different meanings, and thus South American English and Southern American English would mean different things as well. Squeakbox, I understand your concern that non-native speakers may intially be confused about the difference between the two, but that is (for better or worse) the way our language works. All languages have confusing ideosyncracies, but to become a better speaker, they must be learned and understood, not ignored.
Lasersnake
15:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I am a little confused by your argument. Are you saying that in other parts of the world native English speakers refer to the continent as "Southern America," not "South American." If this is what you are saying please provide a quality reference to support this, scholerly, peer-reviewed, etc..
I certainly hope you know that citing another Wikipedia page to support your assertion on this wikipedia page isn't good research. I don't know any more than you do who constructed the redirect pages for this topic. Wikipedia should be consistant in its definitions, but each assertion still must be supported by evidence as being "correct." Otherwise, we will just be copying the same error from that page unto this one. Every encyclopedia, article, etc. I looked at on this topic refers to the continent as "South America." If you so desire I can list several.
Lasersnake
17:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) To reiterate -- I have met dozens, maybe hundreds, of native English speakers from other countries than the U.S. in my life, and I have never encountered a single one who didn't use the word "American" in the same way I do: to refer to the United States. I wouldn't put too much weight on the redirect from Southern America to South America; the question is, how often is "Southern America" actually used to refer to South America. And the concept "Southern America", whatever it may mean, is irrelevant for this article, since "Southern American English" is to be interpreted as "(Southern (American English))", not "((Southern American) English)". — An gr 17:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
America in English unquestionably means the US, I certainly dont dispute that, but Southern America is ambiguous because South America clearly refers to Latin America. If we are talking about sources we also need to attribute that Southern America means the US, I know the sourcing policies here, Lakersnake, and believe that without sources for Southern America referring to America there is a strong case for changing the article name, SqueakBox 17:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
How about Southern English? Its currently the disambig but my investigations inmdicate that this is the more common term for the English spoken in the south of the US and southern English doesn't exist as a concept in the UK, SqueakBox 17:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
As I said before it is actually cvalled a southern accent in the UK, it looks like the naming problem goes further than just this article, SqueakBox 18:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I think Angr has figured out the confusion. It is not Southern American...English. It is Southern...American English. Can we agree that American English is an unambigous term? If so than Southern American English would clearly refer to the dialect of American English spoken in the South. I don't think changing the name back to
Southern English would help anything. In fact I think
Southern English was changed to
Southern American English to help make the page less ambigious.
Squeakbox, I understand you feel strongly about your claim,but I must disagree when you say that "without sources for Southern America referring to America there is a strong case for changing the article name." Like it or not, the burden of proof here rests with you, and if you can only back up your argument with your own conviction, I am afraid it will fall short.
Lasersnake
17:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
What do people think about renaming the article Southern (American English)? That makes it clear that we're dealing with a variety of American English called "Southern" and precludes any misinterpretation relating to South America. — An gr 13:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Per prior discussion (see archive link above), I agree with Angr's comments about listing specific people in the article. None of these people have any citations next to their names. I don't see how including them, short of an acceptable reference, could be anything but original research. (Some of the names have been removed several times, only to make their way back onto the page.) Thus, I have removed the entire list. If anyone cares to research and cite references for "well known" individuals, feel free. ++ Arx Fortis 18:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing on the Texas accent in all of Wikipedia. Rick Perry is crying tears of blood.
The Texan accent is heard in every inch of Oklahoma and at least half of Kansas and parts of New Mexico and Arizona as well. Its very close in dialect to the Appalachian dialect which is kind of a manly accent.
That is true of Oklahoma.Iam an Okie and we talk Okie which is Texan .You should come down here we are not Yankees we are trans-planted Southerners that came to the land rush from texas,arkansas,alabama,kentucky you get the hint
texasreb hey i repect all your input but Oklahoma is more southern from what you said i have lived in Oklahoma my whole life and have visited all of Oklahoma including northern Oklahoma which is not midwestern but Southern sir and i consider myself a Southerner to the bone I would compare Oklahoma a cross between Arkansas/Texas/Missouri.Oklahoma is also the most SOUTHERN BAPTIST state in the country which is my religion.
Relating to the above discussion, I've always heard "mosquito hawk" used to mean crane fly. On the subject of animal and plant names, "raccoon perch" is a yellow perch, "spread-adder" is a hognose snake, "yellow cat" is a flathead catfish or yellow bullhead, "devil's brush" is thistle. Also, the saying "The devil is beating his wife" refers to sunshowers.
Perhaps the article needs a section on these nature terms? (These are a few of the terms I have heard used. There are many more.) I can only source "spread-adder" and "yellow cat" but I'm sure others can find the other terms. Vultur 23:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to disrespect the hard work someone obviously put into this article. In my very, very humble opinion, it seems that this page is dedicated more to an upscale southern accent, like you might find in Savannah or in some older southerners. Dropped R's and genteel Y's and mint jeeeuuulups at the ke-un-tuckeh deh-by and the like. Am I reading the phonetic spellings wrong? Or is anyone making a distinction between that accent, and the one we're actually using down south? -- Spesek 15:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the following statements that have been tagged as unsourced (and potential original research) for several months:
If anyone can find and cite sources for these statements, feel free to re-add them. — Angr 16:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
^ exactly why wikipedia will eventually fail. "we just talk that way" does count, and saying it doesn't is exactly why so many southerners STILL can't stand outsiders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.229.247 ( talk) 01:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi, can you cite academic sources for calling southern accents and regionalisms "dialects"? Cantonese and Mandarin are dialects (same language, but not mutually comprehensible). I don't believe mainstream Southern American English differs significantly enough from Midwest or Western American English to constitute a dialect. The tone of this article suggests Missourians and Illnois people speak separate dialects on the grounds that Missourians call fizzy drink "pop" while the Illinois folks call it "soda." I don't know the proper linguistic term, but "regionalism" seems more correct than a full blown dialect. WikiPicky 02:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I've been in Georgia for almost ten years...long enough that I generally don't notice the accent anymore. There are just a few specific places where it stands out, and I'd be interested in seeing those discussed. One is the conversion of "v" to "m" (sorry, I don't know how to use the phonetic alphabet), such as when "seven" becomes "semm". The other is when certain words are suddenly articulated almost like a violent sneeze. The example that comes to mind is a coworker talking...nothing remarkable...until he gets to the phrase "right there", which becomes a suddenly very loud and forceful "RHY-CHYAH!" (or something to that effect). No reason in context for the sudden dramatic change in volume. You don't hear that every day, but it's not rare either.
Also...at the grocery stores, even some of the national chains, on the signs hanging at the end of the aisles, the suffixes "-en" and "-ed" are dropped from many of the adverbs: froze food, can vegetables. And, of course, it is very prevalent, even among educated people, to make plurals with an apostrophe-s. I remember a tourist attraction in the "Alpine" town of Helen, GA that had HUGE (and, I imagine, expensive) banners out front advertising "toy's" and "gift's". Here in Athens there is a carpeting outfit whose trucks advertise "Carpet's Plus." I know that this is not unique to the South, but it must be ten times more common here than it was back home (where nobody says "to be"). Another interesting feature of the vocabulary are compound words that sound redundant to an outsider: ink pen, loaf bread (not the same as loaf of bread—here, loaf is more akin to wheat or white...it's a style), Cadillac car (it's not just on King of the Hill!). PurpleChez 22:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed that people in the town I live in in South Carolina tend to use "ɔ" as the vowel in "hot" and "on" rather than the "ɑ" used in General American. It is possible that my General American ears are playing tricks on me? I want to know if the "Newer SAE" has a cot-caught merger and if they do, what vowel do these words have? It also seems to my ears that the "r" is pronounced more heavily when it is not followed by a vowel than in GAE. Before I moved here, I thought that people would use "coke" as their term for soft drinks; however, I was mistaken. Everyone I have bumped into says "soda". Also, many people in the red region of the map in this article do not have much of an "accent". This might seem obvious; however, I think it should be addressed. I am talking about people who have lived in the region their entire lives and somehow just do not have the "accent". I asked some of these people why they did not speak this dialect and they could not give me an answer. They said they did not intentionally change their speech (as in the case of Stephen Colbert). They just never had accents, according to what they told me. I just want to know why this happens (Besides the fact that SAE is stigmatized. These people clearly did not care about that or they would have changed their speech intentionally, which they did not do.)
208.104.45.20 00:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I am well aware that everyone has an accent. If you think the television greatly influences the way we speak then you should read this. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 04:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a lot of white space in the first section of the article. Anyone know how to bring the TOC higher to eliminate some of it? ++ Arx Fortis 22:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
An interesting pronunciation I have noticed in the South occurs when there is an "l" immediately followed by an "s" in a word. A "t" sound is inserted between the two consonants. Thus "also" becomes "altso" ([ɔɫtsoʊ]) and "else" becomes "elts" ([ɛɫts]). Supposedly, this pronunciation is shared with Utah English. The majority of my teachers pronounce words like those in that way. Another noteworthy pronunciation is that of the phrase "not yet". Most of my teachers pronounce this something like "nah chet" ([nɑtʃɛt]). I believe this is a result of hypercorrection. 208.104.45.20 21:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Most people from the United States do not pronounce it that way. That was my point. So when you here someone that does, you can assume that that person is doing it to sound educated (which most of my teachers are) or extra intelligent (don't know about that one though). 208.104.45.20 02:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you. It sounds less educated to me as well. It just sounds like the way a person would pronounce the phrase in attempt to sound more educated when it actually has the opposite effect. Usually in the United States we do not fully pronounce our t's at the ends of words. When you fully pronounce (aspirate) the t at the end of "not", the t and the y at the start of "yet" begin to sound like a "ch" sound. Maybe it's not exactly a "ch" sound. Now I think I was wrong with the IPA. I guess it's just an aspirated t quickly followed by a y. Anytime I hear someone fully aspirate the t at the end of any word in the U.S., I assume that person is trying to sound educated and intelligent. 208.104.45.20 20:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, you don't have to tell me your name, buddy. Thanks. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 04:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I have heard the word "during" pronounced [dɪɹiŋ] in the South. 208.104.45.20 21:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is there no IPA symbol for the vowel sound Southeasterners use in words like "wine" and "ride"? The symbol commonly used, /ɑː/, is accurate only for Louisiana and Mississippi, as far as I know. In Virginia and South Carolina, the areas I'm most familiar with, the sound is more like /æː/, but I've never known a linguist to write it that way.
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
In the coastal plains of Va. (where I grew up), N. C., and S. C., the diphthong is closer to /ɑɪ/, and right on the coast of the Carolinas (and I believe on Va.'s Eastern Shore) it comes very close to /ɔɪ/ (whence the nickname "hoi toiders" for residents of the N. C. Outer Banks).
Monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts seems to occur mainly in the mountains and in other areas to which large numbers of mountaineers have migrated, such as Texas and the Carolina Piedmont. In the latter area, it is usually a token of class, reflecting the migration of mountaineers to work in Piedmont textile mills in the first half of the 20th Century.
As far as I can tell, monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts never occurs with non-rhotism, something Hollywood has never been able to grasp.
I have no published sources for these assertions, but they're true.
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 17:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
How do you know they're true? Have you spoken to 60-year-olds in Mobile, Alabama? [One of the few places in the South where non-rhoticity (not non-rhotism or even non- rhotacism) still exists]. Hollywood has been able to grasp that non-rhotic pronunciatons are accurate for movies that take place a while ago like Wild Wild West, Gods and Generals, Gettysburg, and Maverick. "NASCAR English" would not be appropriate to correctly depict those times. I am quite sure that the monophthongization of /aɪ/ has existed for a long time now (dialectologists don't call it the "Confederate A" for no reason), and, thus, it did and does (though not so frequently anymore) occcur with non-rhoticity. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 04:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
A small point this, not directly related to the subject matter, but what does this sentence mean?
"The South was known for being largely settled by English from the West Midlands - the West Country. (The West Country dialect of Britain is also very similar to the Southern dialects.)"
Is it implying that West Midlands (of England) and West Country (of England) are synonymous? If so then this is very much mistaken. Both regions have very distinct, but quite different, accents associated with them.-- 81.153.216.201 22:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Question: What are some historical roots of the Southern American English dialect, if any?
At a recent conference on English Dialects of the Carolinas, Sociolingist Dr. Walt Wolfram conceded that although southern English shares commonalities with British English, as you noted, it was greatly influenced by Scots-Irish settlers in the region, but, interestingly, that the most salient differences between Southern American English and other varieties of American English have actually developed since the Civil War.
In places that have been more geographically isolated, these differences are more pronounced today. The Coastal Carolinas and the Sea "Gullah" Islands of South Georgia, as well as many areas of Appalachia are good examples of such isolation. Only in the Ocracoke Brogue of the Carolina coast can we here any connection to the English of Sussex. Frazzled 22:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled
Who calls grocery carts a "buggy"? I don't doubt that some do, but I am from the Gulf Coast and have never heard a grocery cart called that before. It might be a subregional thing. Also, "done" instead of "already" is only common in uneducated dialect, as far as I know. To mention that as part of southern dialect would be analogous to saying the U.S. northeastern dialect puts 'you' with 'was', e.g. "You was wrong." Mauvila 07:58, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The use of "buggy" for supermarket cart is widespread in Southern Appalachian English. To speak of "Southern English" as a homogenous dialect would be akin to referring to the English language as consisting only of the Queen's variety. [Frazzled]
I've never heard "buggy" or "we done did this" and I'm from Georgia. It does seem to be the kind of thing that would distinguish "plantation" or "educated" accents from "common" or "redneck" accents. Haverton 17:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
Varieties of Dialects are not only distinguished by region but (as you so crassly asserted) by social class. Indeed what is "common" then would be what is most widespread, not what is necessarily espoused by the educated or the elite. Thus, "done" is common (as in "you done said the wrong thing") as is the use of the double modal (e.g., "you might could think, but you ain't got the proper equipment"). Please do educate yourself: accent is merely one part of dialect; the part under disucssion here is vocabulary, which I think all will agree is the most interesting and colorful aspect of language. Unfortunately, the prejudiced you eschew I presume to interpret as your wanting us all to speak "McEnglish." Well, sorry to tell ya, pal, but I reckon it ain't gonna happen. Frazzled 21:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled.
I live on the eastern Mississippi Gulf Coast, not too far from Mobile, AL and "buggy" is the common word here for shopping carts. CelticJobber 3:19, 23 March, 2006 (UTC)
Lived in Savannah, GA for several years and they used the word "buggy" all the time. As in "My friend carried me to the Pig and helped me find a buggy." Brynna 05:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
As a native Arkansan, I must say that the use of buggy is extremely widespread, even in the "affluent" areas of Little Rock and NW Arkansas (Fayetteville, Bentonville). To say shopping cart would sound weird to me.
My dialectal background is coastal Virginia & Georgia, and I'm surprised to find that "buggy" is considered a regional word. I thought it was in universal usage.
Angr, if you're reading this: you added Mary to the merry-marry section. Is this something you know for certain? I was pretty sure that the typical Southern pattern was to merge two but keep the other distinct, not to maintain a three-way distinction. AJD 17:36, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid I can't tell the difference between these three words. I was born in the Ohio river valley in Indiana and grew up in Houston. --dude
For me, these 3 have the same pronunciation, although my father distinguished "Mary" as having a long /a/ sound. We speak a variety of Southern Appalachian English.
Frazzled
21:48, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Frazzled.
I grew up in Houston, and Mary, Merry, and Marry all have the same pronunciation there. The only person I knew who said 'Mary' differently than that was a British woman named Mary. - VirgilOrion
In re: the edit by 64.16.181.63, who wrote: I have never heard "we'uns" in my life except out of northern people that want to make fun of southern people that use "you'uns" in their speech. As a southern speaker, I find this quite offensive.
I never knew my father's parents, who passed on some 8 years before I was born; but I have two letters his mother wrote that contain many "youens." She was born in 1870 in West Virginia's Monongahela County.
My parents are from Wayne County, Southern Illinois and both use the word "you'uns." I've also heard it from people in and around Springfield, Columbia, and Jefferson City, MO due to the fact that I'm an Internet support rep for a major cable company in that area. However, when I lived in Savannah, GA I never heard anyone using it, nor have I heard anyone from the Deep South use it on the phone.
Brynna
05:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
You'uns is a famously Appalachian and Ozark feature that it is uncommon near the Coastal South. It also has a famous Pittsburgh variant, "yinz".
Drowneded? I've lived in several parts of the south and never heard this word, which an anon added to the word use section. I'm deleting it unless there's concensous to keep it. Sayeth 02:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
I've heard it used by many Southerners for the past tense/participle of drown. I'm putting it back where it was, Smith
Ever Heard Bob Dylan's song "When the Ship comes in?"(c1963) "Then they'll raise their hands, Sayin' we'll meet all your demands, But we'll shout from the bow your days are numbered. And like Pharaoh's tribe, They'll be drownded in the tide, And like Goliath, they'll be conquered." Frazzled 15:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)frazzled
Growing up in Houston, everyone said "drownded", and I honestly can not recall the actual grammatically correct. - VirgilOrion
It is all explained at: http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/drgw006.html
Rather than discuss individual words, why not just link to http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/southernese.html All this work has already been done by professionals.
Drownded is quite common in North Carolina.
I've disovered (at least in "rural" lake county, FL), that "y'all" is Singular!. It's "all y'alls" or "alls y'alls" for the plural. For example, you go into an Apopka restaurant, and the server will ask "Has alls y'alls decided whatcha fixin' ta eat?" Swirsky 14:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've lived in the South all of my life, and I know that "y'all" always refurs to more then one person.
I've heard both "y'all" and "y'alls" but they were always referring to the plural - VirgilOrion
I agree...y'all has always been plural to my knowledge. However, I've heard may people (in Southern Appalacia) say "We'll see ya later," when, in fact, the "We" is only one person.
This is how I've always heard understood and heard "y'all" being used (using, for instance, a university baseball team)
The last is the one that confuses most people and causes them to think it is being used in the singular, but it's not. You cannot say "I went to y'all's house" to someone who lives alone. If you say it to someone who lives with someone else, even though the both of them are not present, you still end up to the individual as part of the greater whole.
In Tidewater Virginia, where I grew up, one of the dialect markers is something similar to Canadian raising. My wife, a New Englander, used to hear my parents' "about" as "aboot". I'm not a linguist, and know little about documented studies of American accents, so I'm reluctant to add this to the article (plus, it may be a regional distinction that's dying out). Do any Wikipedians with more linguistic training know anything about this Virginia "ou"? — Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Speakers of this Virginia dialect also pronounce "tomato" as "t'-MAH-duh", for what little that may be worth. Sorry that I'm not fluent in IPA, or I'd be more precise about these pronounciations. — Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the older Tidewater generation still pronouces the "ou" as aboot, hoose (house), roote (route), but its not as sharp or pronounced as the Canadian vowel raising. To my ears, its in between the two pronunciations.
In fact, Southerners not only never confuse "you" with "y'all", but in most areas "y'all" has become a plural 2nd person singular pronoun (yall) with its own possessive (yalls), the possession of which is sometimes even doubled (yallses) as the past tense is doubled in "drownded". An influential discussion written by a linguist who was born and raised in North Carolina may be found at http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/drgw006.html. The reason Northerns cannot understand this usage is that they do not understand Southern culture: it is impolite to single individuals out of the group they belong to as someone above has correctly pointed out. To invite one member of a family to your home is offensive. "Yall come" may be uttered to an individual but it always applies to his or her entire family. The article above explains everything discussed here.
Rather than try to list all the thousands of elements of southern US regional dialects, why not just link to a page by a professional linguist born and raised in the South who has already made up a list that characterizes the dialect rather fairly if humorously: http://www.alphadictionary.com/articles/southernese.html
Maybe I am just crazy, but I find this whole concept rather absurd. I am from the deep south, live in the not-as-deep-but-more-coastal south, and lived in New England for a couple of years. I am sorry to guffaw at the linguists, but southern drawl is nothing more than a few words that are pronounced differently along with a couple of regionally affiliated slang terms. I don't speak a different dialect, I just have an accent. -- Coldbourne 10:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I have made an edit of the Word Use section so that it is divided into word use and grammar. I also added a few different grammar points. Most of the new information comes from English in the United States (2003).
Southern American English to Southern Drawl. The Southern Drawl is the more common name for the dialect, so the article should be moved there. Robot32 23:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
CMcLewin 21:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
"The Southern Appalachian dialect is, among all the dialects of American English, the one most closely related to the Scots dialect of English (see Scots language, Ulster Scots language)." It doesn't sound very Scots. Any sources to back up this tenuous claim?
No, there's no evidence of this. I compared some Scottish Gaelic phrases to Appalachian English phrases just as a reference point in the entry I wrote for Appalachian English, but this should not be taken as proof that there is any similarity. The Scots who moved to Appalachia were mainly from the Lowlands, and thus were monolingual English speakers, not Gaelic speakers. I think the Gaelic speakers retreated into the Highlands of Scotland. 63.23.9.77 03:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Scots refers to the Emglish dialect spoken in Scotland. Comparisons with Gaelic is useless.
Shouldn't this be Southern United States English? Southern American implies South America. It's actually southern only in the context of the United States. Ken 23:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
== Naming... == (from the Southern literature talk-page) Shouldn't this page be called Southern-American literature rather than simply Southern literature? -- 205.188.117.6 05:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Would someone go and change the main Southern literature page name and have it redirect to the proper Southern American literature page? If this page is called " Southern American English," shouldn't the other be called " Southern American literature"? Southern literature is far too broad and could apply to many-many countries...thanks. -- 205.188.116.7 07:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The word "reckon" which is often used in the South in the place of the words "think", "suppose", or "guess" needs to be mentioned in this article. An example of "reckon's" usage: "I reckon I'd better stop speeding, or I might get pulled over."
The main difference in dialects of Southern American English would be Geography. The Inland-Southern accents are very similar and can't really be distinguished from. Most of North-central GA,AL,MS, North LA, Central to Southern ARK, East and parts of North Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, and the piedmonts of SC and NC. All have the typical Southern Accent we think of or that hollywood galmourized. Also noted Some parts of North Florida have similar accents among local residents as well as secluded parts of Southern GA and AL. The coastal dialect is probally the older dialect deriving from the colonial settlers rather than Scotch-Irish and working-class English immigrants. This dialect usually is spoken in the higher classes of southern society a great example of this would be in the Atlanta area; in blue collar communities the thicker inland accent is common but in the city among the distinguished residents the old coastal dialect is heard resembling the plantation society of the lowlands. Done, fixin, ain't, "cain't", boy, folks, are commonly used in the inlands. Also African-American vernacular had a large influence on this accent as well due to the closeness with the poor whites of the south as they share cropped side by side, several pronunciations and words were exchanged. Other dialects can be categorized as Southern American English as well for example: Southern Illinios, Extreme Southern Missouri, and well into Indiana accents are very similar to those of the south. The explanation of this is in Indiana and in Southern Illinios is due to the migration of a substantial amount of poor whites to the area from MS, TN, AL, KY, and to a smaller part Georgia and Arkansas. However in Missouri it was probally derived from the area. These accents are NOT RELATED TO ANY PART OF THE MIDWEST FROM LINGUISTICAL RESEARCH. The Texas accent is somewhat of a blend. Texas was settled by settlers from the State of Georgia ( included MS and AL at the time) and the Tennessee frontier. when opened to settlement by the spanish. As immigrants from Germanic and Slavic languages settled into central Texas the dialects began to blend. Then the promise of Texas success to Americans in the North brang the third influence. But the strong majority which is present in speech comes from the original settlers of Texas.
The accents how ever are not from celtic origins and have no relations to the language of Gaelic, But are rather close to Old English. Due to cultural and settlement influences from Germanic tribes of the Isles of Britian. Many typical Germanic pronunciations were dropped with other influences.
A question about the Texas accent: I grew up in Houston, and then moved to the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I've noticed a few differences in vocabulary. For instance, the way Houstonians pronounce the name of their own city. You could easily tell who was a native or not by the way they pronounced Houston with a "y" sound instead of the "h" sound. A slight blur between an "e" and "o" follows it up. Texas, or Houston at least, was also gaining a strong influence from Mexican-Spanish, mostly in vocabulary. Going out into the country a bit more, a slight Germanic influence is there, mostly due to the large amount of Czech settlers. My grandparents, and others their age, don't have what I'd considered even a slight Southeran American-English accent or vocabulary. Certainly a more older version of the current Texan way of speak though. Honestly, the typical Southeran American English, from any region, sounds nearly foreign to me, in the same way that accents from New York or California do. Is the Texas accent/vocabulary within a few decades of becoming its own dialect? - VirgilOrion
I wish Arkansas was discussed more in this article, I think we have one of the most varied situations. People from southwestern Arkansans (Like Texarkana, my home city) can sound like anything from Cajun to Texan to Mississippi Deltan, Eastern Arkansans usually speak the Inland dialect most associated with the typical southern accent. People from Little Rock have their own little accent, too. Also, it seems that cities immediately south of LR (Benton, Arkadelphia) still sound like they speak Inland/Mississippi Deltan, but people in cities immediately north (Conway, Russelville) sound more like NW Arkansans who speak differently (Almost no accent, at least the educated people!). Here in NW Arkansas, there are many college students and business professionals (Wal-Mart is headquartered here) as well as people from the bigger cities in Missouri (who speak more midwestern and use more metropolitan words). Therefore, there are almost no distinguishing accents for this area. (Until, however, you head east towards Mountain Home and Jonesboro, where they, in my opinion, have a whole different way of speaking; probably influenced by the accents of Kentucky and Tennessee).
Sorry for the length, I just thought it was interesting.
Many people believe that a dialect close to that of Elizabethan English is spoken in remote parts of the Appalachians. The idea has currency because it is attractive and compelling. It demonstrates a yearning for a sense of historical longevity within a young country; it lends comfort to those who wish to emphasise the Anglo-Saxon nature of America's cultural origins in the face of its ethnic diversity; it confirms the "backwoods" stereotype. However, it is merely a cultural myth; there is no linguistc evidence to support it. This myth has spread through the writings of jounalists rather than the writings of the well-informed. It should not be perpetuated in this article.
^Show evidence supporting your case or you'll just continue to be ignored. There's plenty of evidence supporting a conection between Elizabethan English and the English spoken in the Appalachians. It's just that Elizabethan English had numerous dialects (Hiberno-English is very much an Elizabethan dialect), just as PDE has numerous dialects. Furthermore, language is an organic thing. Certainly, the Appalachian dialect may not be exactly what the first settlers spoke, but that doesn't mean it's grown far apart. If all you're going off of is books you've read, in their original form, from the 15-1600's then you're an idiot. It's a known fact that what was written was not what was spoken and that we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke.
^Do I need to point out that it shouldn't be up to me to provide evidence to support a negative. On the other hand, anyone who espouses this theory had better come up with something compelling, hadn't they? The trouble is, nobody has. It is not just a lack of empirical linguistic evidence that stands in the way of this theory; it just doesn't hold water. Firstly, no Elizabethan settlement survived in North America. Jamestown, Virginia (the first permanent colony) was formed under the reign of James I. Furthermore, Europeans have populated the southern mountains for only about 200 years, so how did they manage to preserve their "Elizabethan" (or should that be "Jacobean") dialect during the intervening 200 years? Secondly, exactly what counts as speaking "Elizabethan"? If you go to England and visit the county of South Yorkshire, you will find that the inhabitants use the archaic pronouns "thee" and "thou". Why doesn't anyone accuse them of having preserved "Elizabethan" English? The answer is because archaic speech is not unusual. Archaisms are used throughout the English speaking world: they do not constitute evidence that a dialect has been preserved in any special way. It is claimed that the Appalachian dialect has been preserved by the isolation of its speakers, but no one could claim that South Yorkshire towns like Sheffield or Barnsley are isolated places. If Appalachian speech does contain archaisms, what makes it more "Elizabethan" than the multitude of other dialects which use lexical items or grammatical patterns that were also around back then? Finally, if "we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke (sic)" then how can anyone assert that modern people speak like them? That is illogical, Captain! I'm afraid that written texts are all we have as evidence for Elizabethan speech. What else do you propose we use as evidence? Sir Walter Ralegh's ipod?
I recently saw my addition Inversion of indefinite pronouns: "everwhere", "everwhat", etc., in place of "wherever", "whatever" in word use was removed by a random IPer for being "a joke". I'm sorry, has he or she ever been in the South? This is still said with relative frequency and mentioned in many conference proceedings I've been to on linguistics.
I have not read the 1860 consensus, but I can certainly tell you that the South is very much an Anglo-Saxon area. Sure, it wasn't solely settled by English from the West Midlands, but it is not primarily Celtic, nor is the West Midlands a Celtic region. The stupidty would be excusable except that this is a text that is otherwise very professional and Wikipedia is itself a credible on-line source. The South is AngloSaxon. If you want to contend that there's a strong Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scot (that is not the same as "Irish") influence then o.k., but those really aren't a truly Celtic people, either. Well, whatever, I fixed it, but from now on may we keep to fact and not to peronal musings.
Where I live in coastal Mississippi, it's common especially for older people to pronounce the "s" at the end of the word tastes, so that it sounds more like "taste-is". An example would be "This tea tastes good". Has anyone else heard it pronounced this way in another part of this South? Would this use be appropriate to add onto this entry? CJ
In my opinion, this article should cite literary examples from famous works written in a Southern dialect for examples of speech. Many writers write in a very phonetic fashion when a character is speaking in Southern, and accurately shows the manner of speach. One obvious example of a source to quote from would be Faulker's works, but there are plenty of other good sources for this as well. Also, this has the additional benefit of being a reliable source, making the need for citing additional references unneeded. -- SeizureDog 01:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I rephrased the following from Different Southern American English dialects/Midland & Highland/South Midland or Highland Southern (it was the last phrase of the first paragraph):
If someone would like to change this back, please include references to scholarly, peer-reviewed works which back up this claim and/or provide specific examples. Here are my references for changing it:
Basically, I see the point of the myth as pointing out that this dialect of SAE has evolved in a way that is slightly different from General American English over the last few centuries. But to point out that it retains features of EME is to imply that Standard American English does not retain any of its features. Simply put, Standard American English and Southern American English have both retained a number of elements of EME--many of these elements are the same, a few are not. If someone would like to fix the weasel words or simply remove the sentence altogether, be my guest! JordeeBec 19:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
George W. Bush speaks Southern American English, doesn't he? If so, let's add him in that paragraph where the article mentions US presidents that spoke SAE. Clinevol98 19:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It always sounds to me like his accent is forced. His pedigree is New England blueblood, and he was born somewhere up there. Additionally, his entire family was from there, and his parents did not have Southern accents. It could be acquired during his youth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.221.221 ( talk • contribs) 11:27, July 20, 2006 (UTC)
He moved to Midland, Texas when he was 6, so I doubt he took much of his accent from New England. The fact that you don't like him doesn't change the fact that he speaks with an accent which can generally be described as Southern American English. -- 209.30.58.229 06:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
If the Philadelphia accent is really close to New Jersey / New York as stated by the wiki link, then surely Baltimore natives do not speak it. (I'm a native.) Wikiwikiwikiwikiwikiwiki 16:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm from Kentucky. GangstaEB~( penguin logs) 00:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I added some sub-sections under Grammar and Phonology because both blocks were simply to massive, and there was already a distinction being made between Older and Newer SAE. For readability's sake, I also changed the way the grammar examples were cited. Good or bad? --Sept. 27th
I'm curious as to whether any other Southerner's pronounce the "t"s in words like "milton", "fighting", "fulton", and other such words as little more than some sort of glottal stop before the proceeding vowel, and also as to whether this phenomenon occurs elsewhere. I know it's quite common in the Peidmont region of Georgia amongst non-yankee speakers, if anything. Should this be added to the pronunciation section?
According to the book "The Story of English" by Krumm, the Southen Accent was heavily influenced by French via Lousiana. Note how some southerners pronounce "sing" as "sang" Consider how the "i" in the French word "Moulin" is prounounced. It is very similar to English "a" in father!
I understand that the Word Usage section has a disclaimer stating that many of these phrases aren't sourced, but I think that the exclusion of those items needing citation should seriously be considered until sources are verified. I was born and raised on the Mississippi Coast, have many relatives across the Southeast and in Texas, and currently attend school at the University of Mississippi, which has a notable variety of SAE dialects from across the SAE spoken region. Those being my only credentials, I couldn't swallow this section. The phrases mentioned in this section are NOT in widespread usage among all dialects of SAE, and many of them could/should be considered part of Older SAE, associated by many my age with rural dialects and more importantly with the elderly.
I can imagine that some of these phrases and word usages may have survived in different regions, but it has to be at varying degrees. For example- I have never used the words "yonder," "reckon" or "young'un"; used the words "carry" or "tote" in the manner suggested in the article; the phrases "to tump over" or "to chuck"; the "wasn't"/"doesn't" forms "wudn't"/"dudn't"; or the use of singular nouns as if they were plural. These are associated with older generations and rural speech patterns. But I have used the word "buggy" for "push-cart," which is something that many speakers of SAE do not say anymore, especially in urban areas. The word "mash" is also not used, as far as I am aware, simply as a substitute for "press" or "push" but as a word of emphasis more likened to "excessive force" as in "I mashed my finger with the hammer."
My proposition is that even if there are cited, reliable sources for these word phrases, that it be considered an objective to research where these are used more frequently as it can be argued their usage as a whole is not characteristic of SAE, but more probable only regional sub-dialects within SAE. And that even such sources as Harvard Dialect Survey do not take into account the differences between Older and Newer SAE but are general questions that relate the answers given to the specific areas where the questions were asked, not the actual dialect spoken which can be diverse depending on where one grew up and where one now resides. (If this is an incorrect analysis, I truly am sorry, but it's what I can gather from the reference site provided.)
I am not an expert in this field, so I can only offer observable data to discuss, and would be very interested to see why an expert would disagree. I was just genuinely shocked that such words considered "Old South" by younger generations would be bundled up with more contemporary SAE usage without distinction.
Also, the usage of "mosquito hawk" and "snake doctor" do not refer to "dragonfly" and "crane fly" interchangeably with anyone I have met, and the article suggests- perhaps because of word placement- that it can be. However, I wouldn't doubt that it does in some areas. I understand that this isn't reliable sourcing but original research, but the common use of "mosquito hawk" only refers to "crane flys" and a "snake doctor" is a "dragonfly" as far as I'm aware. 207.68.251.25 21:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)jlseal
Please do not contibute original research (i.e. one's own thoughts or ideas) to Wikipedia (especially to linguistics articles). Doing so is against Wikipedia policy ( WP:NOR).
Aside from that fact, just "living in an area" for a long time does not make one an expert on dialect(s). There are too many variables to consider (including the influence of mass media, popular culture, and the 20th Century advent of easily-accessible rapid transit). Unless you are trained and educated in the subject of linguistics, your unqualified opinions may serve to only add confusion to an already complex subject. "I've never heard..." or "I've always heard..." does not cut it.
If you do have contributions to make, please make sure they are referenced. ++ Arx Fortis 07:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Umm I don't know if any of these map makers have ever been to Western Kentucky it's undoubtibly the most Southern area of the states yet it's not shaded on this map. Also people consider Southern Illinois Southern in Dialect, yet the area below the mason dixon line isn't shaded Southern???? can some one say FLAW
http://www.geocities.com/yvain.geo/diausa.gif
http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/images/dialectsus.gif
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap2.GIF
http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialMap.gif
http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/mapping/map.html
http://www.msu.edu/~preston/LAVIS.pdf
http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialLnx.html
Here's a few maps I think yall should find interesting
Do linguists use the term "Southern American English"? I tried doing some google research on this before and I remember that I found that there were only a few linguists who used that term. Even if the term is legit (and I'd like to see some proof that it is), I don't think the article should use the abbreviation "SAE", because isn't that customarily used to stand for "Standard American English"? And what is this older/newer "SAE" distinction? Where does that come from? It seems to be entirely original research. schi talk 00:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Over the next day or so I will be reasearching the assertions made in the Word Use section. Those for which a reference can be found will be moved above the "unsourcedsect" tag. ++ Arx Fortis 01:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is another map that is better than the one that is currently on the site. It too is based on Labov's work. It shows the totality of what he and his team at UPenn consider "Southern English," not just one dialectal trait. It is similiar to the map on the page, but includes a few more areas. I don't know how to make Wiki-maps but I will work on learning how, if anyone wants to try their hand at it instead, here it is. http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html Here is the page the map is from http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html Lasersnake 19:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
A better map needs to be on this article. The southern dialect is heard all over Oklahoma; not just the bottom sliver as the map suggests. I recommend using the one from PBS. I actually worked with the professors who researched it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.47.197.247 ( talk • contribs) 23:17, 30 January 2007 UTC
I have a problem with the Western Kentucky, Southern Indiana, and SOuthern Illinois areas of the current map. A few credible sources have been posted above on this talk page that lables those areas as Southern. From personal experience those are the most Southern areas of the state of Kentucky (this is personal experience). A few of those maps also lable Southern Indiana (across from Louisville) as part of the Southern dialect range too. 74.128.200.135 02:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Angr, I found this map http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap1.html Is it the one you used to base your Wikimap? I see what you mean that Labov only used the monophthongization of "ay" to define the Southern dialect region. I think that means the map I suggested is the same map that is used to make your wiki-map. I guess my suggestion is that the shaded line on your wikimap be moved a little north to include the parts of Southern Maryland more of W.Va that are included on the Labov map. A wiki-editor found your map and used it as evidence that the Southern dialect was not spoken in MD, when I think we both agree that Labov does include it. Thanks for the clarification and the good work on the maps. Lasersnake 17:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I guess it is splitting hairs as to whether the isogloss should be 50 miles further north or south since, as you say, their was no samples from that area anyway. I can live with a little imprecision. Thanks for letting me know how you came to your conclusion.
Lasersnake
20:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I personally don't care which map is used as long as we reach a consensus on the map and then agree to stop changing the map every few months. All the Southern articles suffer from this map-change itis. And to be honest, the changes usually aren't that big a deal.-- Alabamaboy 20:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to tell you that I am from southern ohio trans-planted Southerner like the majority here. most people from southern ohio has some type of southern dialect & ancestry.Most of the early settlers of southern ohio in the 18th & early19th century came from Virginia,Kentucky. Later in the 1940's to 1980's a huge immigration of Southern appalachian's moved to southern ohio for work making southern ohio's dialect a much stronger southern dialect,southern culture,southern christianity this is even more true out in the rural areas but also in big cities such as North-Dayton,East-Dayton
Fairborn,Xenia,Moraine,Middletown,Fairfield,Hamilton. I assure you if you come to the rural areas of southern-ohio try Hillboro rockyfork-lake area & you see southern conservative churches everywhere when you smell constant hickory-smoke in the air and everyone wearing boots & when you approach us you will feel the southern-hospitality you will know that we are not northerners, but southerners by all means. CelticPete March,20,2007
Why is Florida not included? Rhythmnation2004 21:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Florida is not part of the map because not all but most people from Florida are not even southern they are trans-planted northeasterners from NewYork,New Jersey etc, in fact south coastal Florida has no difference in dialect comparred to a Bostonian or New york/Jersey dialect.
The name Southern American English indicated it was English from South America which is wrong, hence the change. Please dont revert to a title as ambiguous as it was, SqueakBox 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Well the debate didnt look like there was a consensus and it nmay not be umnambiguous to Americans but it is to everyone else. Your use of admin rollback also seems like a personal attack as if you are treatingm yme like a vandal or someone who doesnt understand how wikipedia works. Such an attitude is unhelpful. I'll stick an NPOV tag on the article till this gets resolved, SqueakBox 23:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Hardly new, though. Rastafarianism had a dispute tag for 6 months before it was changed to Rastafari movement because of the name. It is also clear from the archive that I am not the only person who has trouble with this. We call the US United States not America and its not what Latin Americans think but the fact that the term is highly ambiguous to any Non Northern American English speaker. We've been here before with different words in Brit and American English, and IMO it is important to find a title that is unambiguous. What do other people think? SqueakBox 23:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
What, exactly, about the article does not confirm to a Neutral Point of View? Dewrad 23:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Southern America redirects, correctly IMO, to South America. This article name is thus implying that we are talking about the English found in South America (Falklands, Guyana) and this name is an anomaly, perhaps needing an article Rfc,though I would ahve thought a com promise name would be the best solution, SqueakBox 01:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I assumed that it was actually called Southern. I got brought here because I speak southern UK English which is alsoo uniformly called a southern accent. How about Southern US English? I honestly feel the title is ambiguouis, the most ambiguous title I have conme across here in wikipedia pretty much. I dont agree that changing an ambiguous title could be considered original research esp given angr has said that what it is actually called is southern English, SqueakBox 14:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not unusual in English for a cardinal direction (east, south, north, west) used as a modifer to have a completely different meaning than the adjective (eastern, southern, northern, western) form of the direction used a modifer to the same noun. Examples include
West Virgina (the state) and Western Virginia (a part of the state of Virginia)
South Africa (the country) and Southern Africa (the large geographic region of the continent)
So really there is nothing strange or abhorant about South America (the continent) and Southern America (a cultural region of the US) having different meanings, and thus South American English and Southern American English would mean different things as well. Squeakbox, I understand your concern that non-native speakers may intially be confused about the difference between the two, but that is (for better or worse) the way our language works. All languages have confusing ideosyncracies, but to become a better speaker, they must be learned and understood, not ignored.
Lasersnake
15:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I am a little confused by your argument. Are you saying that in other parts of the world native English speakers refer to the continent as "Southern America," not "South American." If this is what you are saying please provide a quality reference to support this, scholerly, peer-reviewed, etc..
I certainly hope you know that citing another Wikipedia page to support your assertion on this wikipedia page isn't good research. I don't know any more than you do who constructed the redirect pages for this topic. Wikipedia should be consistant in its definitions, but each assertion still must be supported by evidence as being "correct." Otherwise, we will just be copying the same error from that page unto this one. Every encyclopedia, article, etc. I looked at on this topic refers to the continent as "South America." If you so desire I can list several.
Lasersnake
17:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) To reiterate -- I have met dozens, maybe hundreds, of native English speakers from other countries than the U.S. in my life, and I have never encountered a single one who didn't use the word "American" in the same way I do: to refer to the United States. I wouldn't put too much weight on the redirect from Southern America to South America; the question is, how often is "Southern America" actually used to refer to South America. And the concept "Southern America", whatever it may mean, is irrelevant for this article, since "Southern American English" is to be interpreted as "(Southern (American English))", not "((Southern American) English)". — An gr 17:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
America in English unquestionably means the US, I certainly dont dispute that, but Southern America is ambiguous because South America clearly refers to Latin America. If we are talking about sources we also need to attribute that Southern America means the US, I know the sourcing policies here, Lakersnake, and believe that without sources for Southern America referring to America there is a strong case for changing the article name, SqueakBox 17:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
How about Southern English? Its currently the disambig but my investigations inmdicate that this is the more common term for the English spoken in the south of the US and southern English doesn't exist as a concept in the UK, SqueakBox 17:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
As I said before it is actually cvalled a southern accent in the UK, it looks like the naming problem goes further than just this article, SqueakBox 18:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I think Angr has figured out the confusion. It is not Southern American...English. It is Southern...American English. Can we agree that American English is an unambigous term? If so than Southern American English would clearly refer to the dialect of American English spoken in the South. I don't think changing the name back to
Southern English would help anything. In fact I think
Southern English was changed to
Southern American English to help make the page less ambigious.
Squeakbox, I understand you feel strongly about your claim,but I must disagree when you say that "without sources for Southern America referring to America there is a strong case for changing the article name." Like it or not, the burden of proof here rests with you, and if you can only back up your argument with your own conviction, I am afraid it will fall short.
Lasersnake
17:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
What do people think about renaming the article Southern (American English)? That makes it clear that we're dealing with a variety of American English called "Southern" and precludes any misinterpretation relating to South America. — An gr 13:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Per prior discussion (see archive link above), I agree with Angr's comments about listing specific people in the article. None of these people have any citations next to their names. I don't see how including them, short of an acceptable reference, could be anything but original research. (Some of the names have been removed several times, only to make their way back onto the page.) Thus, I have removed the entire list. If anyone cares to research and cite references for "well known" individuals, feel free. ++ Arx Fortis 18:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing on the Texas accent in all of Wikipedia. Rick Perry is crying tears of blood.
The Texan accent is heard in every inch of Oklahoma and at least half of Kansas and parts of New Mexico and Arizona as well. Its very close in dialect to the Appalachian dialect which is kind of a manly accent.
That is true of Oklahoma.Iam an Okie and we talk Okie which is Texan .You should come down here we are not Yankees we are trans-planted Southerners that came to the land rush from texas,arkansas,alabama,kentucky you get the hint
texasreb hey i repect all your input but Oklahoma is more southern from what you said i have lived in Oklahoma my whole life and have visited all of Oklahoma including northern Oklahoma which is not midwestern but Southern sir and i consider myself a Southerner to the bone I would compare Oklahoma a cross between Arkansas/Texas/Missouri.Oklahoma is also the most SOUTHERN BAPTIST state in the country which is my religion.
Relating to the above discussion, I've always heard "mosquito hawk" used to mean crane fly. On the subject of animal and plant names, "raccoon perch" is a yellow perch, "spread-adder" is a hognose snake, "yellow cat" is a flathead catfish or yellow bullhead, "devil's brush" is thistle. Also, the saying "The devil is beating his wife" refers to sunshowers.
Perhaps the article needs a section on these nature terms? (These are a few of the terms I have heard used. There are many more.) I can only source "spread-adder" and "yellow cat" but I'm sure others can find the other terms. Vultur 23:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to disrespect the hard work someone obviously put into this article. In my very, very humble opinion, it seems that this page is dedicated more to an upscale southern accent, like you might find in Savannah or in some older southerners. Dropped R's and genteel Y's and mint jeeeuuulups at the ke-un-tuckeh deh-by and the like. Am I reading the phonetic spellings wrong? Or is anyone making a distinction between that accent, and the one we're actually using down south? -- Spesek 15:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the following statements that have been tagged as unsourced (and potential original research) for several months:
If anyone can find and cite sources for these statements, feel free to re-add them. — Angr 16:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
^ exactly why wikipedia will eventually fail. "we just talk that way" does count, and saying it doesn't is exactly why so many southerners STILL can't stand outsiders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.229.247 ( talk) 01:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi, can you cite academic sources for calling southern accents and regionalisms "dialects"? Cantonese and Mandarin are dialects (same language, but not mutually comprehensible). I don't believe mainstream Southern American English differs significantly enough from Midwest or Western American English to constitute a dialect. The tone of this article suggests Missourians and Illnois people speak separate dialects on the grounds that Missourians call fizzy drink "pop" while the Illinois folks call it "soda." I don't know the proper linguistic term, but "regionalism" seems more correct than a full blown dialect. WikiPicky 02:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I've been in Georgia for almost ten years...long enough that I generally don't notice the accent anymore. There are just a few specific places where it stands out, and I'd be interested in seeing those discussed. One is the conversion of "v" to "m" (sorry, I don't know how to use the phonetic alphabet), such as when "seven" becomes "semm". The other is when certain words are suddenly articulated almost like a violent sneeze. The example that comes to mind is a coworker talking...nothing remarkable...until he gets to the phrase "right there", which becomes a suddenly very loud and forceful "RHY-CHYAH!" (or something to that effect). No reason in context for the sudden dramatic change in volume. You don't hear that every day, but it's not rare either.
Also...at the grocery stores, even some of the national chains, on the signs hanging at the end of the aisles, the suffixes "-en" and "-ed" are dropped from many of the adverbs: froze food, can vegetables. And, of course, it is very prevalent, even among educated people, to make plurals with an apostrophe-s. I remember a tourist attraction in the "Alpine" town of Helen, GA that had HUGE (and, I imagine, expensive) banners out front advertising "toy's" and "gift's". Here in Athens there is a carpeting outfit whose trucks advertise "Carpet's Plus." I know that this is not unique to the South, but it must be ten times more common here than it was back home (where nobody says "to be"). Another interesting feature of the vocabulary are compound words that sound redundant to an outsider: ink pen, loaf bread (not the same as loaf of bread—here, loaf is more akin to wheat or white...it's a style), Cadillac car (it's not just on King of the Hill!). PurpleChez 22:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed that people in the town I live in in South Carolina tend to use "ɔ" as the vowel in "hot" and "on" rather than the "ɑ" used in General American. It is possible that my General American ears are playing tricks on me? I want to know if the "Newer SAE" has a cot-caught merger and if they do, what vowel do these words have? It also seems to my ears that the "r" is pronounced more heavily when it is not followed by a vowel than in GAE. Before I moved here, I thought that people would use "coke" as their term for soft drinks; however, I was mistaken. Everyone I have bumped into says "soda". Also, many people in the red region of the map in this article do not have much of an "accent". This might seem obvious; however, I think it should be addressed. I am talking about people who have lived in the region their entire lives and somehow just do not have the "accent". I asked some of these people why they did not speak this dialect and they could not give me an answer. They said they did not intentionally change their speech (as in the case of Stephen Colbert). They just never had accents, according to what they told me. I just want to know why this happens (Besides the fact that SAE is stigmatized. These people clearly did not care about that or they would have changed their speech intentionally, which they did not do.)
208.104.45.20 00:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I am well aware that everyone has an accent. If you think the television greatly influences the way we speak then you should read this. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 04:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a lot of white space in the first section of the article. Anyone know how to bring the TOC higher to eliminate some of it? ++ Arx Fortis 22:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
An interesting pronunciation I have noticed in the South occurs when there is an "l" immediately followed by an "s" in a word. A "t" sound is inserted between the two consonants. Thus "also" becomes "altso" ([ɔɫtsoʊ]) and "else" becomes "elts" ([ɛɫts]). Supposedly, this pronunciation is shared with Utah English. The majority of my teachers pronounce words like those in that way. Another noteworthy pronunciation is that of the phrase "not yet". Most of my teachers pronounce this something like "nah chet" ([nɑtʃɛt]). I believe this is a result of hypercorrection. 208.104.45.20 21:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Most people from the United States do not pronounce it that way. That was my point. So when you here someone that does, you can assume that that person is doing it to sound educated (which most of my teachers are) or extra intelligent (don't know about that one though). 208.104.45.20 02:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you. It sounds less educated to me as well. It just sounds like the way a person would pronounce the phrase in attempt to sound more educated when it actually has the opposite effect. Usually in the United States we do not fully pronounce our t's at the ends of words. When you fully pronounce (aspirate) the t at the end of "not", the t and the y at the start of "yet" begin to sound like a "ch" sound. Maybe it's not exactly a "ch" sound. Now I think I was wrong with the IPA. I guess it's just an aspirated t quickly followed by a y. Anytime I hear someone fully aspirate the t at the end of any word in the U.S., I assume that person is trying to sound educated and intelligent. 208.104.45.20 20:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, you don't have to tell me your name, buddy. Thanks. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 04:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I have heard the word "during" pronounced [dɪɹiŋ] in the South. 208.104.45.20 21:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is there no IPA symbol for the vowel sound Southeasterners use in words like "wine" and "ride"? The symbol commonly used, /ɑː/, is accurate only for Louisiana and Mississippi, as far as I know. In Virginia and South Carolina, the areas I'm most familiar with, the sound is more like /æː/, but I've never known a linguist to write it that way.
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
In the coastal plains of Va. (where I grew up), N. C., and S. C., the diphthong is closer to /ɑɪ/, and right on the coast of the Carolinas (and I believe on Va.'s Eastern Shore) it comes very close to /ɔɪ/ (whence the nickname "hoi toiders" for residents of the N. C. Outer Banks).
Monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts seems to occur mainly in the mountains and in other areas to which large numbers of mountaineers have migrated, such as Texas and the Carolina Piedmont. In the latter area, it is usually a token of class, reflecting the migration of mountaineers to work in Piedmont textile mills in the first half of the 20th Century.
As far as I can tell, monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts never occurs with non-rhotism, something Hollywood has never been able to grasp.
I have no published sources for these assertions, but they're true.
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 17:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
How do you know they're true? Have you spoken to 60-year-olds in Mobile, Alabama? [One of the few places in the South where non-rhoticity (not non-rhotism or even non- rhotacism) still exists]. Hollywood has been able to grasp that non-rhotic pronunciatons are accurate for movies that take place a while ago like Wild Wild West, Gods and Generals, Gettysburg, and Maverick. "NASCAR English" would not be appropriate to correctly depict those times. I am quite sure that the monophthongization of /aɪ/ has existed for a long time now (dialectologists don't call it the "Confederate A" for no reason), and, thus, it did and does (though not so frequently anymore) occcur with non-rhoticity. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 04:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)