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(see below...)
Sorry for giving start to what could be a new dispute. What I find aberrant is the present system used for the names of the towns; while for the province a choice was made, prefering the German solution (all in all the best solution, since Germans are majoritarian), for the towns the weird "decision" was taken of not deciding, with Bolzano-Bozen, Brunick-Brunico, ecc. And while both Bolzano and Bozen are used, Bolzano-Bozen is simply absurd. I propose to use the language criterion to select only one name for all comuni; Bolzano-Bozen would be Bolzano, Brunick-Brunico would be Brunick.-- Aldux 12:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Whats the adjective given to describe people from South Tyrol and whats the noun given to someone from South Tyrol?
H'm, I tried to find something about this guy here, and failed. Anyone has a link? -- Tridentinus 14:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"The South Tyrolean People's Party (SVP) rejected the proposal, saying this would just create ethnic tensions again. Cossiga made similar remarks again in 2007, bringing in again another bill calling for a solution by letting South Tyrol rejoin Austria."
What is this? This page is so pro-German, it is out of control. That, and now we are describing the future.
"The proportion of the Italian-speaking population thus grew significantly from 3% before World War I (census of 1910) to over 34% in 1961." Where is a citation for this "fact"? This entire page is almost written without any basis.
I know about it, being a Tridentine myself :). And I also know that linguistic survey can give flawed results; but then, how is one to measure linguistic groups then? More importantly, that was precisely what Austria in 1910, Italy in the 60's wanted to know: how many speak this or that language, and where. What do you mean by ethnic group? ;) -- Tridentinus 11:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that an Austrian census of 1910 vintage would be reasonably acceptable. The Austrian government never pursued a policy of Germanization (unlike the Hungarian policy of Magyarization), and the Census was put through in part to inform the government of what was going on - the government wanted accurate information, not a propaganda tool (Austria was not known for its high quality propaganda service, at any rate). As I understand it, that census is generally used as a roughly accurate guide for linguistic patterns prior to the First world War. john k 13:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This page should be moved from South Tyrol to the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. There is no province in Italy with the name South Tyrol. There is a REGION, whose name in German is Sudtirol. Taalo 03:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The historical name of this province is Süd-Tirol. The Italian designations in South Tyrol were never introduced by democratic laws. How does Google Südtirol translate? Simply South Tyrol. Unfortunately South Tyrol is not accepted by many Italians.
I originally added the following to User talk:Taalo.
What should be considered is the separation of articles. Wikipedia should have articles on the (official) Italian Region of "Trentino-Alto Adige", its (official) subdivisions "Province of Trento" and "Province of Bolzano", and the (unofficial) geographic and historical region "South Tyrol". "South Tyrol" is certainly a term used frequently in English- just take a glance at Google Books. That is why I support the separation of the articles' information into "administrative" and "historical" articles. This historical territory of Tyrol would therefore be separated into the historical regions of North Tyrol, East Tyrol, and South Tyrol, and into the administrative regions/provinces Tyrol (state) and Trentino-Alto Adige, the latter divided into Trento and Bolzano. Similar case are Podlachia (historical) and Podlachian Voivodeship (administrative) or the various subdivisions of the historical regions Styria, Transylvania, Silesia, and Pomerania. Olessi 17:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no move yet. There is clearly going to be no consensus on a poll at this page. What we need is for people to come to an agreement through discussion and consensus. I've closed the actual "poll", but the discussion will remain open. If a clear consensus ever forms, or there is clearly a supermajority, contact an administrator to actually perform the move. Another option, which I personally think is the only way that you will get a clear majority here, is to create a straw poll. Just create a list of ideas for the title and/or whether to have multiple pages like a regional South Tyrol page and page for the Province of Bolzano first, without discussion, and then argue to pros and cons of each proposal. If one proposal clearly has the most support, the page can be moved there (or split if the proposal involves splitting.) — Mets501 ( talk) 14:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
South Tyrol → Province of Bolzano-Bozen – This page describes the Province of Bolzano/Bozen, the one just north of the Province of Trento. Every online reference that lists the provinces of Italy (in English) lists Rome, Milan, Tuscany, Trento, Bolzano. I think it is fair in this mixed Italian-German region to use both names. Once again a compromise, and a preservation of both names.. which are important to me, and I would imagine to anyone else who appreciates history. Alto Adige/Sudtirol is the region, not the province. We can have a seperate section on South Tyrol if someone wants, or a link to South Tyrol (historical) Taalo 03:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
no sockpuppets please A user or two look suspicious below. If anyone is trying to help either side, know this won't help in the end. I really appreciate anyone trying to help make things right again, but this ain't the way. Lets not be so serious either on here, ok? If there are sockpuppet accounts, just say so, and you have to buy the first round of beers if any of us ever meet in the region. va bene? ok? I like the Forst beer. :) Taalo 00:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
JUST SO EVERYONE can see how neutral are friend Gryffindor is in this debate, please refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#South_Tyrol_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Clinks.7Chistory.7Clogs.29 Real ethical of you there buddy. Non-sense names, eh? Thanks for showing your true colours. Oh yeah, I'm assuming that good faith! Taalo 10:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Please give the following:
Thanks. — Wknight94 ( talk) 04:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
English references which show this region as Trentino-Alto Adige and Province of Bolzano. Regardless, I believe we should have the Italian/German name, because this is fair to both groups of the region. Also, written directly into the constitution of Italy, they call the region Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. So at least the Gov't of Italy was able to make a compromise, eh?! Should, hopefully be a compromise so people can chill out, and we can actually get to work on making good pages.. not creating anger. I'm going to cross post websites that refer to the naming convention for the Province of Bolzano/Bozen & the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. Note once again, that if there is any reference that only has Italian, I full support listing both, which is done in the Italian constitution and locally in the region on road signs, buildings, etc. Let's share finally... Taalo 04:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
CIA World Factbook: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/it.html#Govt
Constitution of Italy (refer to Article 116): http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/it00000_.html
Countries and Cities website: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/provinces.htm
Province of Bolzano website: http://www.provinz.bz.it/lpa/autonomy/autonomy_statute_eng.pdf
World Gazetteer: http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gmap&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=-1956 http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-1956&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=491419135 http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_Autonomous_regions.htm
More and more links *yawn* (simply searching under "listings of provinces in italy") Taalo 08:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC) http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/maps/regions.htm http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/it-reg.html http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Europe/Italy/Regions/ http://goeurope.about.com/cs/italy/l/bl_italy_region.htm http://www.infohub.com/Maps/italy_map_203.html http://www.big-italy-map.co.uk/maps/map-of-trentino-alto-adige-.gif
That the abbreviation for the province is "BZ" does not mean that "Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen" is the most commonly used name. john k 13:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
(I was typing this in response to wknight94 while Taalo added his, so I'll modify a little to take account of his take on the matter) The problem is, it seems there's no unambiguous English name for the territory in question. In Italian it's called provincia di Bolzano, but also, and I suspect more commonly, Alto adige, and recently Sudtirolo has been gaining more and more ground. In German it's called Südtirol, or Autonome Provinz Bozen-Südtirol ("amtlich" says the German Wiki: officially), but I have yet to see a German-speaker supporting the latter. In the lack of a clear-cut English term, there seem to be different interpretations on how to call the entry, and all with at least some merit. Me, I support South Tyrol as being first of all well-known to English speakers, supported by an overwhelming majority of German speakers and accepted by a sizeable group of Italians, and that pretty covers the interested parties in order of importance (I stand by the philosophy that the local majority matters more than the national majority). Also, it is simple and uncomplicated for people who may use the search feature. On a historical note, the name South Tyrol is grounded in the Austrian (well, Germanic) tradition of naming territories with a proper name mixing with the Italian praxis of naming provinces with the name of the main city. Compare with Trentino and province of Trento (in reality Trentino would be more correct, since there was a Trentino well before a province of Trento existed); both Trentino and Südtirol are traditional names in reality taking precedence over the official names in common usage. The crux is: official names, or used names? Taalo makes the examples of California, and indeed: if you search for it, it is not under State of California, but simply California... Tridentinus 18:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
More references: Taalo 20:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
http://www.pickatrail.com/jupiter/location/europe/italy/italy.html
Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the region, but I was asked to offer an unbiased opinion and I'm trying to do that. I've read the above discussion but in the event that I've misunderstood something or missed an important point I welcome correction. I also apologise for rehashing things that have been said above.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) says: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Being unfamiliar with the region myself, above discussion leaves me with the impression that there is no overwhelming consensus among English speakers here (or the discussion would be a lot shorter!) but that 'South Tyrol' may be ambiguous - while many English speakers would recognise it, it may not refer to the same entity that is the subject of this article. Further along in that same policy:
"Generally, use the official English name for the place and its type. Example: the country has "oblasts" and its government officially translates them as "area", "region", or "zone", then they should never be renamed "province" to conform to another country or some master schema... The testimony of locals and people familiar with the country should be considered above Google evidence. Google is very likely to have many results from news organizations and wire services. These remote reporters may be ignorant about local naming standards."
Looking at pages cited by Taalo and Gryffindor ( Civic Network of South Tyrol, autonomy statute) it is evident that they refer to both 'South Tyrol' and 'Bolzano' (or 'Bolzano/Bozen'). However, the only parts of those pages that refer unambiguously to a province call it 'Bolzano' or 'Bolzano/Bozen'. (The Civic Network site mostly uses 'South Tyrol', but only attaches the word 'province' to 'Bolzano/Bozen' and to 'Bozen - South Tyrol'." This could be read either as naming a province "Bozen - South Tyrol" or a province "Bozen" that is in South Tyrol, as with the 'Maine - New England' analogy offered above. Were it rendered as 'Bozen/South Tyrol' I'd be inclined to the former interpretation, but it's not.
Since the autonomy statute is a more formal document - a translation of a constitution, as opposed to a tourist-oriented site - I'm inclined to give it the most weight, and that one refers unambiguously and consistently to the 'Province of Bolzano' with no mention of 'South Tyrol' at all. Based on that, I think the most 'proper' name for an article about this province would be Province of Bolzano, and if Province of Bolzano-Bozen or some such is more palatable to locals, I'm not going to argue with that. (Hyphenation would be better than a slash to avoid making it look like a subpage.) I also agree with Olessi that it would be useful to have a separate article for the region South Tyrol and explain the distinction between the region and the province. -- Calair 02:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
"Although the region "Trentino-Alto Adige" was not abolished, its name was changed to "Trentino-South Tyrol" and most of its important powers were taken away and transferred to the two provinces South Tyrol and Trentino." I really hope this author is giving an accurate account. So does this mean both names are in effect? Also, "Until the present, German and Ladin speakers did not distinguish between Italians in South Tyrol and Italians in general. Most of the people did not even distinguish between the Italian people and the Italian government. There is no awareness of the two distinct levels of the conflict. But Italians in South Tyrol can no longer be seen only as the invaders and as tools of the Italianization politics. After living in the province since the 1930s, or at least since the 1950s, they consider South Tyrol to be their homeland too. Their offspring were born there, went to school there and work there. Italians became, over the years, Italian-speaking South Tyroleans." Anyway, that is really a great historical article, if it is accurate. I don't know, I've given credit to the Trentino-South Tyrol folks, without them actually doing any research. :) I still think though, to be fair with what is on the maps, etc... more and more Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol makes the most sense. Again, with the cities, we really should use both names. The province, it is hard to argue with what exists.. i.e. the Province of Trento and the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. I like Olessi's idea the best to have a subpage or something describing South Tyrol. Man, for sure I did not like what the Austrians did in the 1800's to the Italians of Trentino... and no more do I like what the Italian Gov't did to the people of Bolzano-Bozen in the 1900's. I hope you all who are from this region can at least realize that many of us have been around here back when we were even all under Rome. I still consider all the people of this region brothers/sisters/cousins. regards. Taalo 06:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
OBVIOUS ANSWER Just a quick observation - Wiki Commons uses the OFFICIAL name of "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" for the Category. Seems pretty sensible to see that the name of this province is NOT "South Tyrol" - it is "Bolzano" (and "Bozen" as the German alternate name). Just a thought - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Trentino-Alto_Adige Rarelibra 03:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Bolzano was finally held in consensus. When are we going to address the same with the Province name? Rarelibra 18:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Please read Lar's offer and respond accordingly: Talk:Trentino-South_Tyrol
Is it possible to delete that embarrassing translation of Südtirol into Sudtirolo? I can assure you that no Sudtirolo exists in Italian, it makes neither any grammatical sense because Italian it is not an agglutinative language as is German, and at most you can talk about Tirolo del Sud. I'm aware some references for "Sudtirolo" do exists, but most of them are about a camping site. Sudtirolo is only (mis)used by some german-speaking south tyroleans when talkin with other italians, but just as a direct translation of their home province's name. It has no recognition in the rest of the country. I really don't care about ethnic disputes or something, just to point out that no Italian can hear about "Sudtirolo" without having a good laugh. -- Fertuno 18:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Ya, Tirolo del Sud would be more proper Italian afterall. Let's just take out Sudtirolo. Or should we put in Tirolo del Sud? Even though in Italy they called it Alto Adige, there is recognision of the joint Tirolo culture. I'll take out Sudtirolo for now. Fertuno, I also do not agree with your statements that Trentino-South Tyrol is the obvious English name for this region. Taalo 20:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it's all simpler than how appears. Tyrol is an historical german-speaking region of Europe. Nowadays, it's half Austrian and half Italian, the Italian half being roughly equivalent to the Province of Bolzano/Bozen. In most languages the local name of the region was taken from this root, and there is nothing wrong about that: it was the language of the majority, after all. Still today in Italian we call many Eastern european cities from their German name (e.g. Danzica for Gdansk, from Danzig; Breslavia for Wroclaw, from Breslau; Stettino for Szczecin, from Stettin), or many Turkish cities from their Greek name (e.g. Smirne for Izmir, from Smyrne; Adalia for Antalya, from Attalia and so on). In Italian, the local name of the region is instead about a geographical feature, and was taken from an old term coined during the napoleonic rule of the area. Again, there is nothing wrong about that: in a newly annexed province, someone thought was not acceptable to use the old enemy's name. Today there aren't enemies any more, but the sole Italian name of the area still is Alto Adige, while the sole German name still is Sudtirol. And the German-derived name is still used in most other languages, included English. -- Fertuno 12:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Trentino has been aggregated to Land Tirol only in the XIX century. Before that, there have been almost eight centuries of proud independence. Sure there was confusion even before then, but already in the XVIII century the local cultured class wouldn't hear of that. The most known example is in a sonnet by Clementino Vannetti, containing the famous verse Italiani noi siam non tirolesi ("We're Italians, not Tyroleans") Tridentinus 16:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but the procedure outlined at WP:RM#Steps for requesting a controversial page move did not appear to be followed, and consensus could not be determined. Please request a move again with proper procedure if there is still a desire for the page to be moved. Thank you for your time! -- tariqabjotu 10:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
The OFFICIAL ENGLISH NAME of South Tyrol is
Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol
I'am going to give instruction about your wrong namings to our legal office-- Martin Se 14:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
1. The Region consists of the Provinces of Trento and Bolzano.
2. The communes of Proves, Senale, Termeno, Ora, Bronzolo, Valdagno, Lauregno, San Felice, Cortaccia,
Egna, Montagna, Trodena, Magre, Salorno, Anterivo and the district of Sinablana within the commune of
Rumo in the Province of Trento shall be joined to the Province of Bolzano.
This is according to the Italian government.
Rarelibra
15:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
At the moment, I think most of us agree that the first part of the translation should be Province of Bolzano-..., analogously to the city called Bolzano here on the English Wikipedia. The choice for either Alto Adige or South Tyrol as a translation is difficult, but should be made on the basis of proper argumentation. Arguments that South Tyrol has been German for the past centuries will not hold, I agree. Arguments in favour of Italian names because of Roman history are nonsense of course (yes Taalo, I know you were not serious about this, but I would like the point anyway :-)), as Y-chromosome research has revealed that most of the people in The Netherlands living south of the Rhine River have proven to be of Roman ancestry, eventually, and we are not using Latin names for all towns, villages, etc. south of the Rhine River either. The fact that South Tyrol is now part of Italy does not change this somehow, in my opinion. The usage for either Alto Adige, Upper Adige or South Tyrol should not be made based on pro-German or -Italian arguments, but on the usage in English language in the past. So let's sum up the facts and some logical assumptions. As, left alone some English speaking mountaineers climbing the Dolomites, only a few English speaking people have had contact of importance with this area in the past centuries, I think we can conclude that names for this region have not been applied for in the English language until the Great War. When I remember well, it was April 26, 1915 when the allied forces assigned the regions now known as Südtirol and Trentino to Italy in the secret Treaty of London, provided that Italy would declare war to Austria. I do not know the exact text of this Treaty, but one can assume that in the assignations the region now know as Südtirol has been described by the allied forces as the southern of Tyrol or Southern Tyrol. As Tyrol has not been divided into several regions until the Saint-Germain Treaty of 1919, we can conclude that Südtirol, Nordtirol and Osttirol were non-existing official geographical names until then, as well as were their translations into other languages. The term Alto Adige refers to the upper part of the Adige River. The Saint-Germain Treaty determined that the new Austrian-Italian border should be drawn by taking into account the flow areas of the Inn River and its tributaries on Austrian side, and the Adige River and its tributaries on Italian side, which actually meant that the division would be made mainly by the Ötztal Alps. It was therefore a logical choice for the Italians when they started their italianization politics (and started banning out the Tyrol-suffices) to designate the new obtained area as Upper Adige, as it included the upper part of the flow area of the Adige River. However, Alto Adige is a literally translation of the German Oberetsch. In German language, it is a custom to make a difference between the upper and lower parts of rivers and their accompanying valleys, compare Oberengadin/Unterengadin and Oberinntal/Unterinntal. In these cases, however, it is not the complete flow area of a river and its tributaries, but only the part of the main river and its accompanying main valley which is designated as Ober or Unter. So actually, Alto Adige is a pars pro toto, as it does not comprise the complete area of South Tyrol. Besides that, as far as I know, no other upper parts of rivers in Italy are called Alto ..., except over here, supporting the thesis that it has literatelly been translated from the German Oberetsch. Because of these reasons, I would prefer that it is translated into South Tyrol in English, as it is at the moment. Tubantia 12:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Supparluca - I agree. Let's not go into a history lesson. Emes - you need to bone up to the fact that yes, the region may historically be German-speaking, BUT the region is now a part of Italy. The Italian government has put forth a naming convention that is here to stay. Time changes, things change - but sometimes people don't change (or don't want to change). Don't stress out so much and keep the discussion focused on reaching a consensus for the name. I think "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol" is very well acceptable to appease the dual-speaking area, don't you? Rarelibra 14:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
1. The Region consists of the Provinces of Trento and Bolzano.
2. The communes of Proves, Senale, Termeno, Ora, Bronzolo, Valdagno, Lauregno, San Felice, Cortaccia,
Egna, Montagna, Trodena, Magre, Salorno, Anterivo and the district of Sinablana within the commune of
Rumo in the Province of Trento shall be joined to the Province of Bolzano.
Rarelibra
18:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Get a grip, Martin Se. The area is located in Italy. Doesn't matter if Italians have been there less than 90 years. Doesn't matter if the most spoken language is German (this is English Wiki). Because we can point out the assigned name by the Italian government for the region is "Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol", for the province is "Bolzano/Bozen". This is even evident on the English-translated documentation available on the official provincial website. What you are doing is denying the ownership of the area (we are not denying your heritage, by the way) and asking for a biased POV translation to be used as wiki standard. We are asking for a neutral alternative. Please be reasonable. Rarelibra 16:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
"From the 6th to the 9th century, the region was settled by the Bavarii together with the Langobards and the romanised natives." I do not contest this statement, but it would be fine to have sources because this seems to be contested by some other editors. See also Talk:Merano#the magority of Meran is german speeking Andreas (T) 20:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
"Prime Minister Winston Churchill called the annexation of South Tyrol by Italy a huge mistake."
I removed this sentence from the article until someone provides a source.-- Supparluca 09:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I send an email to The Churchill Centre [10] about any quotes, this is the reply I received: (Quote) In his book "The Aftermath", Churchill describes the Treaty of Versailles. After World War II, in 1946, Churchill was asked, by both Robert Boothby and Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, to become involved in the question of the South Tyrol, which was still claimed by Austria. Martin Gilbert writes in the official biography (WINSTON S. CHURHILL, vol. 8, p 250):
"On August 17, Churchill told Boothby that he hoped he had 'some Labour men' on the fact-finding Committee that was being formed. 'I must leave the development of the campaign to you,' he wrote, 'but pray keep me informed.' To Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, Churchill wrote that same day about the Tyrol: 'In the vast confusion of Europe it is indeed a Touchstone,' and he added: 'Such baffling situations as those which now confront us can only be dealt with selectively. One way is to make up one's mind which is the true point of attack on the long front of evil and bewilderment.'"
In sum, there seems to be no doubt of his sentiments that the South Tyrol should be returned to Austria in the aftermath of both world wars, although in 1946 he was out of power and unable to direct British foreign policy. (end of quote)
From Churchill, THE WORLD CRISIS IV "The Aftermath", London: Thornton Butterworth, 1929, pg. 228-29 (Discussing the treaty of Versailles) "The secret Treaty of London had promised Italy the line of the Alps. But in the South Tyrol, the land of Hofer, four hundred thousand German-speaking people of the upper valley of the Adige lived south of the Alps. Italy claimed her Treaty rights, and England and France were bound. President Wilson was free, and his problem was painful. On the one hand stood the principle of Self-determination; on the other, the Alps, the Treaties and the strategic security of Italy. In April President Wilson withdrew the opposition he had hitherto maintained, and the Southern Tyrol passed to Italian sovereignty.
It should be added that in all the treaties constituting the frontiers of the new States precise and elaborate provisions were inserted and accepted providing for the protection of minorities, their good treatment and equal rights before the law. Italy as one of the victorious Great Powers was not called upon to assume a treaty obligation for the protection of minorities. She instead voluntarily declared her solemn resolve to accord them the consideration and fair play which were their due. The inhabitants of the South Tyrol may therefore base themselves directly and in a peculiarly personal sense upon the faith and honour of the Italian nation."
Gryffindor 09:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"Never" is an exaggeration: Google gives 1990 hits, compared to 2,430,000 for "Alto Adige" and 214,000 for "Sudtirolo" (just for the record). Andreas (T) 15:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
First things first. I'm a total newbie at wiki. I just came across this article and noticed some things which need correction.
more figures can be found here: http://www.provinz.bz.it/astat/publ/publ_getreso.asp?PRES_ID=69870 "South Tyrol in figures - Autonomous Province of South Tyrol"
ciao —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.199.21.19 ( talk) 18:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
The result of the debate was polls DO NOT work for things like this. It is obvious where this is one is going. — METS501 ( talk) 21:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
South Tyrol → Autonomous Province of Bolzano – The official name of Alto Adige/Südtirol is Provincia autonoma di Bolzano (in English: Autonomous Province of Bolzano). Checco 09:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
See art. 116 of Italian Constitution. There we can find the correct definition of this province: Provincia autonoma di Bolzano. -- Checco 11:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The page Italy states that the official, italian name for the country is Repubblica Italiana. However, because this is the English wikipedia, the page is still called Italy. In the same way the French wikipedia has pages titled Royaume-Uni and États-Unis. Chris Bradshaw 13:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
(see below...)
Sorry for giving start to what could be a new dispute. What I find aberrant is the present system used for the names of the towns; while for the province a choice was made, prefering the German solution (all in all the best solution, since Germans are majoritarian), for the towns the weird "decision" was taken of not deciding, with Bolzano-Bozen, Brunick-Brunico, ecc. And while both Bolzano and Bozen are used, Bolzano-Bozen is simply absurd. I propose to use the language criterion to select only one name for all comuni; Bolzano-Bozen would be Bolzano, Brunick-Brunico would be Brunick.-- Aldux 12:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Whats the adjective given to describe people from South Tyrol and whats the noun given to someone from South Tyrol?
H'm, I tried to find something about this guy here, and failed. Anyone has a link? -- Tridentinus 14:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"The South Tyrolean People's Party (SVP) rejected the proposal, saying this would just create ethnic tensions again. Cossiga made similar remarks again in 2007, bringing in again another bill calling for a solution by letting South Tyrol rejoin Austria."
What is this? This page is so pro-German, it is out of control. That, and now we are describing the future.
"The proportion of the Italian-speaking population thus grew significantly from 3% before World War I (census of 1910) to over 34% in 1961." Where is a citation for this "fact"? This entire page is almost written without any basis.
I know about it, being a Tridentine myself :). And I also know that linguistic survey can give flawed results; but then, how is one to measure linguistic groups then? More importantly, that was precisely what Austria in 1910, Italy in the 60's wanted to know: how many speak this or that language, and where. What do you mean by ethnic group? ;) -- Tridentinus 11:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that an Austrian census of 1910 vintage would be reasonably acceptable. The Austrian government never pursued a policy of Germanization (unlike the Hungarian policy of Magyarization), and the Census was put through in part to inform the government of what was going on - the government wanted accurate information, not a propaganda tool (Austria was not known for its high quality propaganda service, at any rate). As I understand it, that census is generally used as a roughly accurate guide for linguistic patterns prior to the First world War. john k 13:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This page should be moved from South Tyrol to the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. There is no province in Italy with the name South Tyrol. There is a REGION, whose name in German is Sudtirol. Taalo 03:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The historical name of this province is Süd-Tirol. The Italian designations in South Tyrol were never introduced by democratic laws. How does Google Südtirol translate? Simply South Tyrol. Unfortunately South Tyrol is not accepted by many Italians.
I originally added the following to User talk:Taalo.
What should be considered is the separation of articles. Wikipedia should have articles on the (official) Italian Region of "Trentino-Alto Adige", its (official) subdivisions "Province of Trento" and "Province of Bolzano", and the (unofficial) geographic and historical region "South Tyrol". "South Tyrol" is certainly a term used frequently in English- just take a glance at Google Books. That is why I support the separation of the articles' information into "administrative" and "historical" articles. This historical territory of Tyrol would therefore be separated into the historical regions of North Tyrol, East Tyrol, and South Tyrol, and into the administrative regions/provinces Tyrol (state) and Trentino-Alto Adige, the latter divided into Trento and Bolzano. Similar case are Podlachia (historical) and Podlachian Voivodeship (administrative) or the various subdivisions of the historical regions Styria, Transylvania, Silesia, and Pomerania. Olessi 17:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no move yet. There is clearly going to be no consensus on a poll at this page. What we need is for people to come to an agreement through discussion and consensus. I've closed the actual "poll", but the discussion will remain open. If a clear consensus ever forms, or there is clearly a supermajority, contact an administrator to actually perform the move. Another option, which I personally think is the only way that you will get a clear majority here, is to create a straw poll. Just create a list of ideas for the title and/or whether to have multiple pages like a regional South Tyrol page and page for the Province of Bolzano first, without discussion, and then argue to pros and cons of each proposal. If one proposal clearly has the most support, the page can be moved there (or split if the proposal involves splitting.) — Mets501 ( talk) 14:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
South Tyrol → Province of Bolzano-Bozen – This page describes the Province of Bolzano/Bozen, the one just north of the Province of Trento. Every online reference that lists the provinces of Italy (in English) lists Rome, Milan, Tuscany, Trento, Bolzano. I think it is fair in this mixed Italian-German region to use both names. Once again a compromise, and a preservation of both names.. which are important to me, and I would imagine to anyone else who appreciates history. Alto Adige/Sudtirol is the region, not the province. We can have a seperate section on South Tyrol if someone wants, or a link to South Tyrol (historical) Taalo 03:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
no sockpuppets please A user or two look suspicious below. If anyone is trying to help either side, know this won't help in the end. I really appreciate anyone trying to help make things right again, but this ain't the way. Lets not be so serious either on here, ok? If there are sockpuppet accounts, just say so, and you have to buy the first round of beers if any of us ever meet in the region. va bene? ok? I like the Forst beer. :) Taalo 00:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
JUST SO EVERYONE can see how neutral are friend Gryffindor is in this debate, please refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#South_Tyrol_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Clinks.7Chistory.7Clogs.29 Real ethical of you there buddy. Non-sense names, eh? Thanks for showing your true colours. Oh yeah, I'm assuming that good faith! Taalo 10:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Please give the following:
Thanks. — Wknight94 ( talk) 04:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
English references which show this region as Trentino-Alto Adige and Province of Bolzano. Regardless, I believe we should have the Italian/German name, because this is fair to both groups of the region. Also, written directly into the constitution of Italy, they call the region Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. So at least the Gov't of Italy was able to make a compromise, eh?! Should, hopefully be a compromise so people can chill out, and we can actually get to work on making good pages.. not creating anger. I'm going to cross post websites that refer to the naming convention for the Province of Bolzano/Bozen & the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. Note once again, that if there is any reference that only has Italian, I full support listing both, which is done in the Italian constitution and locally in the region on road signs, buildings, etc. Let's share finally... Taalo 04:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
CIA World Factbook: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/it.html#Govt
Constitution of Italy (refer to Article 116): http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/it00000_.html
Countries and Cities website: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/provinces.htm
Province of Bolzano website: http://www.provinz.bz.it/lpa/autonomy/autonomy_statute_eng.pdf
World Gazetteer: http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gmap&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=-1956 http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-1956&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=491419135 http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_Autonomous_regions.htm
More and more links *yawn* (simply searching under "listings of provinces in italy") Taalo 08:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC) http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/maps/regions.htm http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/it-reg.html http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Europe/Italy/Regions/ http://goeurope.about.com/cs/italy/l/bl_italy_region.htm http://www.infohub.com/Maps/italy_map_203.html http://www.big-italy-map.co.uk/maps/map-of-trentino-alto-adige-.gif
That the abbreviation for the province is "BZ" does not mean that "Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen" is the most commonly used name. john k 13:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
(I was typing this in response to wknight94 while Taalo added his, so I'll modify a little to take account of his take on the matter) The problem is, it seems there's no unambiguous English name for the territory in question. In Italian it's called provincia di Bolzano, but also, and I suspect more commonly, Alto adige, and recently Sudtirolo has been gaining more and more ground. In German it's called Südtirol, or Autonome Provinz Bozen-Südtirol ("amtlich" says the German Wiki: officially), but I have yet to see a German-speaker supporting the latter. In the lack of a clear-cut English term, there seem to be different interpretations on how to call the entry, and all with at least some merit. Me, I support South Tyrol as being first of all well-known to English speakers, supported by an overwhelming majority of German speakers and accepted by a sizeable group of Italians, and that pretty covers the interested parties in order of importance (I stand by the philosophy that the local majority matters more than the national majority). Also, it is simple and uncomplicated for people who may use the search feature. On a historical note, the name South Tyrol is grounded in the Austrian (well, Germanic) tradition of naming territories with a proper name mixing with the Italian praxis of naming provinces with the name of the main city. Compare with Trentino and province of Trento (in reality Trentino would be more correct, since there was a Trentino well before a province of Trento existed); both Trentino and Südtirol are traditional names in reality taking precedence over the official names in common usage. The crux is: official names, or used names? Taalo makes the examples of California, and indeed: if you search for it, it is not under State of California, but simply California... Tridentinus 18:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
More references: Taalo 20:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
http://www.pickatrail.com/jupiter/location/europe/italy/italy.html
Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the region, but I was asked to offer an unbiased opinion and I'm trying to do that. I've read the above discussion but in the event that I've misunderstood something or missed an important point I welcome correction. I also apologise for rehashing things that have been said above.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) says: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Being unfamiliar with the region myself, above discussion leaves me with the impression that there is no overwhelming consensus among English speakers here (or the discussion would be a lot shorter!) but that 'South Tyrol' may be ambiguous - while many English speakers would recognise it, it may not refer to the same entity that is the subject of this article. Further along in that same policy:
"Generally, use the official English name for the place and its type. Example: the country has "oblasts" and its government officially translates them as "area", "region", or "zone", then they should never be renamed "province" to conform to another country or some master schema... The testimony of locals and people familiar with the country should be considered above Google evidence. Google is very likely to have many results from news organizations and wire services. These remote reporters may be ignorant about local naming standards."
Looking at pages cited by Taalo and Gryffindor ( Civic Network of South Tyrol, autonomy statute) it is evident that they refer to both 'South Tyrol' and 'Bolzano' (or 'Bolzano/Bozen'). However, the only parts of those pages that refer unambiguously to a province call it 'Bolzano' or 'Bolzano/Bozen'. (The Civic Network site mostly uses 'South Tyrol', but only attaches the word 'province' to 'Bolzano/Bozen' and to 'Bozen - South Tyrol'." This could be read either as naming a province "Bozen - South Tyrol" or a province "Bozen" that is in South Tyrol, as with the 'Maine - New England' analogy offered above. Were it rendered as 'Bozen/South Tyrol' I'd be inclined to the former interpretation, but it's not.
Since the autonomy statute is a more formal document - a translation of a constitution, as opposed to a tourist-oriented site - I'm inclined to give it the most weight, and that one refers unambiguously and consistently to the 'Province of Bolzano' with no mention of 'South Tyrol' at all. Based on that, I think the most 'proper' name for an article about this province would be Province of Bolzano, and if Province of Bolzano-Bozen or some such is more palatable to locals, I'm not going to argue with that. (Hyphenation would be better than a slash to avoid making it look like a subpage.) I also agree with Olessi that it would be useful to have a separate article for the region South Tyrol and explain the distinction between the region and the province. -- Calair 02:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
"Although the region "Trentino-Alto Adige" was not abolished, its name was changed to "Trentino-South Tyrol" and most of its important powers were taken away and transferred to the two provinces South Tyrol and Trentino." I really hope this author is giving an accurate account. So does this mean both names are in effect? Also, "Until the present, German and Ladin speakers did not distinguish between Italians in South Tyrol and Italians in general. Most of the people did not even distinguish between the Italian people and the Italian government. There is no awareness of the two distinct levels of the conflict. But Italians in South Tyrol can no longer be seen only as the invaders and as tools of the Italianization politics. After living in the province since the 1930s, or at least since the 1950s, they consider South Tyrol to be their homeland too. Their offspring were born there, went to school there and work there. Italians became, over the years, Italian-speaking South Tyroleans." Anyway, that is really a great historical article, if it is accurate. I don't know, I've given credit to the Trentino-South Tyrol folks, without them actually doing any research. :) I still think though, to be fair with what is on the maps, etc... more and more Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol makes the most sense. Again, with the cities, we really should use both names. The province, it is hard to argue with what exists.. i.e. the Province of Trento and the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. I like Olessi's idea the best to have a subpage or something describing South Tyrol. Man, for sure I did not like what the Austrians did in the 1800's to the Italians of Trentino... and no more do I like what the Italian Gov't did to the people of Bolzano-Bozen in the 1900's. I hope you all who are from this region can at least realize that many of us have been around here back when we were even all under Rome. I still consider all the people of this region brothers/sisters/cousins. regards. Taalo 06:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
OBVIOUS ANSWER Just a quick observation - Wiki Commons uses the OFFICIAL name of "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" for the Category. Seems pretty sensible to see that the name of this province is NOT "South Tyrol" - it is "Bolzano" (and "Bozen" as the German alternate name). Just a thought - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Trentino-Alto_Adige Rarelibra 03:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Bolzano was finally held in consensus. When are we going to address the same with the Province name? Rarelibra 18:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Please read Lar's offer and respond accordingly: Talk:Trentino-South_Tyrol
Is it possible to delete that embarrassing translation of Südtirol into Sudtirolo? I can assure you that no Sudtirolo exists in Italian, it makes neither any grammatical sense because Italian it is not an agglutinative language as is German, and at most you can talk about Tirolo del Sud. I'm aware some references for "Sudtirolo" do exists, but most of them are about a camping site. Sudtirolo is only (mis)used by some german-speaking south tyroleans when talkin with other italians, but just as a direct translation of their home province's name. It has no recognition in the rest of the country. I really don't care about ethnic disputes or something, just to point out that no Italian can hear about "Sudtirolo" without having a good laugh. -- Fertuno 18:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Ya, Tirolo del Sud would be more proper Italian afterall. Let's just take out Sudtirolo. Or should we put in Tirolo del Sud? Even though in Italy they called it Alto Adige, there is recognision of the joint Tirolo culture. I'll take out Sudtirolo for now. Fertuno, I also do not agree with your statements that Trentino-South Tyrol is the obvious English name for this region. Taalo 20:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it's all simpler than how appears. Tyrol is an historical german-speaking region of Europe. Nowadays, it's half Austrian and half Italian, the Italian half being roughly equivalent to the Province of Bolzano/Bozen. In most languages the local name of the region was taken from this root, and there is nothing wrong about that: it was the language of the majority, after all. Still today in Italian we call many Eastern european cities from their German name (e.g. Danzica for Gdansk, from Danzig; Breslavia for Wroclaw, from Breslau; Stettino for Szczecin, from Stettin), or many Turkish cities from their Greek name (e.g. Smirne for Izmir, from Smyrne; Adalia for Antalya, from Attalia and so on). In Italian, the local name of the region is instead about a geographical feature, and was taken from an old term coined during the napoleonic rule of the area. Again, there is nothing wrong about that: in a newly annexed province, someone thought was not acceptable to use the old enemy's name. Today there aren't enemies any more, but the sole Italian name of the area still is Alto Adige, while the sole German name still is Sudtirol. And the German-derived name is still used in most other languages, included English. -- Fertuno 12:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Trentino has been aggregated to Land Tirol only in the XIX century. Before that, there have been almost eight centuries of proud independence. Sure there was confusion even before then, but already in the XVIII century the local cultured class wouldn't hear of that. The most known example is in a sonnet by Clementino Vannetti, containing the famous verse Italiani noi siam non tirolesi ("We're Italians, not Tyroleans") Tridentinus 16:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but the procedure outlined at WP:RM#Steps for requesting a controversial page move did not appear to be followed, and consensus could not be determined. Please request a move again with proper procedure if there is still a desire for the page to be moved. Thank you for your time! -- tariqabjotu 10:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
The OFFICIAL ENGLISH NAME of South Tyrol is
Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol
I'am going to give instruction about your wrong namings to our legal office-- Martin Se 14:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
1. The Region consists of the Provinces of Trento and Bolzano.
2. The communes of Proves, Senale, Termeno, Ora, Bronzolo, Valdagno, Lauregno, San Felice, Cortaccia,
Egna, Montagna, Trodena, Magre, Salorno, Anterivo and the district of Sinablana within the commune of
Rumo in the Province of Trento shall be joined to the Province of Bolzano.
This is according to the Italian government.
Rarelibra
15:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
At the moment, I think most of us agree that the first part of the translation should be Province of Bolzano-..., analogously to the city called Bolzano here on the English Wikipedia. The choice for either Alto Adige or South Tyrol as a translation is difficult, but should be made on the basis of proper argumentation. Arguments that South Tyrol has been German for the past centuries will not hold, I agree. Arguments in favour of Italian names because of Roman history are nonsense of course (yes Taalo, I know you were not serious about this, but I would like the point anyway :-)), as Y-chromosome research has revealed that most of the people in The Netherlands living south of the Rhine River have proven to be of Roman ancestry, eventually, and we are not using Latin names for all towns, villages, etc. south of the Rhine River either. The fact that South Tyrol is now part of Italy does not change this somehow, in my opinion. The usage for either Alto Adige, Upper Adige or South Tyrol should not be made based on pro-German or -Italian arguments, but on the usage in English language in the past. So let's sum up the facts and some logical assumptions. As, left alone some English speaking mountaineers climbing the Dolomites, only a few English speaking people have had contact of importance with this area in the past centuries, I think we can conclude that names for this region have not been applied for in the English language until the Great War. When I remember well, it was April 26, 1915 when the allied forces assigned the regions now known as Südtirol and Trentino to Italy in the secret Treaty of London, provided that Italy would declare war to Austria. I do not know the exact text of this Treaty, but one can assume that in the assignations the region now know as Südtirol has been described by the allied forces as the southern of Tyrol or Southern Tyrol. As Tyrol has not been divided into several regions until the Saint-Germain Treaty of 1919, we can conclude that Südtirol, Nordtirol and Osttirol were non-existing official geographical names until then, as well as were their translations into other languages. The term Alto Adige refers to the upper part of the Adige River. The Saint-Germain Treaty determined that the new Austrian-Italian border should be drawn by taking into account the flow areas of the Inn River and its tributaries on Austrian side, and the Adige River and its tributaries on Italian side, which actually meant that the division would be made mainly by the Ötztal Alps. It was therefore a logical choice for the Italians when they started their italianization politics (and started banning out the Tyrol-suffices) to designate the new obtained area as Upper Adige, as it included the upper part of the flow area of the Adige River. However, Alto Adige is a literally translation of the German Oberetsch. In German language, it is a custom to make a difference between the upper and lower parts of rivers and their accompanying valleys, compare Oberengadin/Unterengadin and Oberinntal/Unterinntal. In these cases, however, it is not the complete flow area of a river and its tributaries, but only the part of the main river and its accompanying main valley which is designated as Ober or Unter. So actually, Alto Adige is a pars pro toto, as it does not comprise the complete area of South Tyrol. Besides that, as far as I know, no other upper parts of rivers in Italy are called Alto ..., except over here, supporting the thesis that it has literatelly been translated from the German Oberetsch. Because of these reasons, I would prefer that it is translated into South Tyrol in English, as it is at the moment. Tubantia 12:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Supparluca - I agree. Let's not go into a history lesson. Emes - you need to bone up to the fact that yes, the region may historically be German-speaking, BUT the region is now a part of Italy. The Italian government has put forth a naming convention that is here to stay. Time changes, things change - but sometimes people don't change (or don't want to change). Don't stress out so much and keep the discussion focused on reaching a consensus for the name. I think "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol" is very well acceptable to appease the dual-speaking area, don't you? Rarelibra 14:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
1. The Region consists of the Provinces of Trento and Bolzano.
2. The communes of Proves, Senale, Termeno, Ora, Bronzolo, Valdagno, Lauregno, San Felice, Cortaccia,
Egna, Montagna, Trodena, Magre, Salorno, Anterivo and the district of Sinablana within the commune of
Rumo in the Province of Trento shall be joined to the Province of Bolzano.
Rarelibra
18:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Get a grip, Martin Se. The area is located in Italy. Doesn't matter if Italians have been there less than 90 years. Doesn't matter if the most spoken language is German (this is English Wiki). Because we can point out the assigned name by the Italian government for the region is "Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol", for the province is "Bolzano/Bozen". This is even evident on the English-translated documentation available on the official provincial website. What you are doing is denying the ownership of the area (we are not denying your heritage, by the way) and asking for a biased POV translation to be used as wiki standard. We are asking for a neutral alternative. Please be reasonable. Rarelibra 16:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
"From the 6th to the 9th century, the region was settled by the Bavarii together with the Langobards and the romanised natives." I do not contest this statement, but it would be fine to have sources because this seems to be contested by some other editors. See also Talk:Merano#the magority of Meran is german speeking Andreas (T) 20:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
"Prime Minister Winston Churchill called the annexation of South Tyrol by Italy a huge mistake."
I removed this sentence from the article until someone provides a source.-- Supparluca 09:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I send an email to The Churchill Centre [10] about any quotes, this is the reply I received: (Quote) In his book "The Aftermath", Churchill describes the Treaty of Versailles. After World War II, in 1946, Churchill was asked, by both Robert Boothby and Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, to become involved in the question of the South Tyrol, which was still claimed by Austria. Martin Gilbert writes in the official biography (WINSTON S. CHURHILL, vol. 8, p 250):
"On August 17, Churchill told Boothby that he hoped he had 'some Labour men' on the fact-finding Committee that was being formed. 'I must leave the development of the campaign to you,' he wrote, 'but pray keep me informed.' To Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, Churchill wrote that same day about the Tyrol: 'In the vast confusion of Europe it is indeed a Touchstone,' and he added: 'Such baffling situations as those which now confront us can only be dealt with selectively. One way is to make up one's mind which is the true point of attack on the long front of evil and bewilderment.'"
In sum, there seems to be no doubt of his sentiments that the South Tyrol should be returned to Austria in the aftermath of both world wars, although in 1946 he was out of power and unable to direct British foreign policy. (end of quote)
From Churchill, THE WORLD CRISIS IV "The Aftermath", London: Thornton Butterworth, 1929, pg. 228-29 (Discussing the treaty of Versailles) "The secret Treaty of London had promised Italy the line of the Alps. But in the South Tyrol, the land of Hofer, four hundred thousand German-speaking people of the upper valley of the Adige lived south of the Alps. Italy claimed her Treaty rights, and England and France were bound. President Wilson was free, and his problem was painful. On the one hand stood the principle of Self-determination; on the other, the Alps, the Treaties and the strategic security of Italy. In April President Wilson withdrew the opposition he had hitherto maintained, and the Southern Tyrol passed to Italian sovereignty.
It should be added that in all the treaties constituting the frontiers of the new States precise and elaborate provisions were inserted and accepted providing for the protection of minorities, their good treatment and equal rights before the law. Italy as one of the victorious Great Powers was not called upon to assume a treaty obligation for the protection of minorities. She instead voluntarily declared her solemn resolve to accord them the consideration and fair play which were their due. The inhabitants of the South Tyrol may therefore base themselves directly and in a peculiarly personal sense upon the faith and honour of the Italian nation."
Gryffindor 09:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"Never" is an exaggeration: Google gives 1990 hits, compared to 2,430,000 for "Alto Adige" and 214,000 for "Sudtirolo" (just for the record). Andreas (T) 15:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
First things first. I'm a total newbie at wiki. I just came across this article and noticed some things which need correction.
more figures can be found here: http://www.provinz.bz.it/astat/publ/publ_getreso.asp?PRES_ID=69870 "South Tyrol in figures - Autonomous Province of South Tyrol"
ciao —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.199.21.19 ( talk) 18:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
The result of the debate was polls DO NOT work for things like this. It is obvious where this is one is going. — METS501 ( talk) 21:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
South Tyrol → Autonomous Province of Bolzano – The official name of Alto Adige/Südtirol is Provincia autonoma di Bolzano (in English: Autonomous Province of Bolzano). Checco 09:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
See art. 116 of Italian Constitution. There we can find the correct definition of this province: Provincia autonoma di Bolzano. -- Checco 11:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The page Italy states that the official, italian name for the country is Repubblica Italiana. However, because this is the English wikipedia, the page is still called Italy. In the same way the French wikipedia has pages titled Royaume-Uni and États-Unis. Chris Bradshaw 13:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)