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Five Protestant civilians died and seven were injured as a result of an attack on an Orange Hall in Newtownhamilton, County Armagh. Responsibility for the attack was claimed by a group called the South Armagh Republican Action force (SARAF) which was considered by many commentators to be a covername for members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).
Added back. One Night In Hackney 303 22:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Well John McCooey, 22, from Cullyhanna, was convicted in connection with the Tullyvallen Orange Hall massacre, as well as being convicted for being a member of the IRA. So if the SARAF claimed the attack and one of the guys arrested and convicted for it was also convicted for being a a member of the IRA, then you have to assume that the SARAF was a covername for the IRA not possibly.
Or state that John McCooey was convicted for it and being an IRA member which gives credence to claims the SARAF was a covername for the IRA. How about that then? Mabuska 22:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I've already had discussion with DerryBoi on this matter months ago and he failed to give me the convention he claimed that stated murders during the Troubles must be stated as killings, forcing him to give up on the agenda. It was left to me and gaillimh to come to an agreement which resulted in the use of the word murder. Why? Here is why:
Murder means unlawful killing. Terrorists from both sdies in Northern Ireland who where tried for taking someones life where done for committing murder, just as ones where done for attempted murder. I've never heard of anyone done for attempted killing etc.
All deaths by terrorist organisations are murder. Just because a side may view murders committed by them as lawful does not make them so. All deaths at the hands of loyalists and republicans were unlawful which means murder.
The use of the words killed/killing aim to justify the deaths, however thats only in a war. The only people who believed that there was a war where the paramilitaries, everyone else believed they where just terrorists and murderers.
So i'm changing it back to murder, which i hope you don't revert unless you can first provide me the convention that says it must be killed, as murder is the appropriate term for deaths by paramilitary terrorists. I'm gonna have to see about this matter on loyalist massacres as well. Mabuska 22:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
At least you and me are discussing this unlike Mr Padraig and his recent edit. Mabuska 23:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
@ Hackney Okay dokey, i'll leave the issue until consensus is changed, i was unaware of the consensus at the start of this evenings precedings, and you have done what DerryBoi failed to, showed me the consensus. However on what constitutes murder in the UK, for future reference i'd like your source for UK law requiring perpetrators having to be of sound mind as reading [4], the murder law reform reported here doesn't appear to state this being the case. All i can find on Google is 2005 articles on UK murder law reviews and ideas etc. Mabuska 00:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I would also have to disagree with you there Mabuska you say above The deaths of the IRA men in Loughall can be lawfully justified in that sense as they where carrying out an attack that was aimed at taking lives. Loughgall was not an attack aimed at taking lives at all, as it was a part time police station and was supposed to be unmanned at the time of the attack. The security forces deliberately placed men inside the station which would allow all other forces in the area (and there were plenty) to immediately open fire on the IRA unit. So what actually happened was the security forces deliberately manufactured a situation that would allow them to open fire without warning. BigDunc 13:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Mabuska I hate to be the one who lets the facts get in the way of your opinion but: They had come to destroy Loughgall RUC station, an unmanned base, using a digger with a bomb in the bucket. [5]
Among the terrorists gunned down at Loughgall as they approached the unmanned station in a hijacked digger carrying a 200lb bomb was brigade commander Patrick Kelly. [6]. Now this talk page is not a soap box for your views. The next comment like "I have to diagree with your republican POV," will be brought to the attention of an Admin. Now put up Diff's to back up your opinion, or say nothing. -- Domer48 21:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Thats no problem Mabuska, I've learned one thing on this though, when your right nobody remembers, and when your wrong nobody forgets. -- Domer48 08:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I intend to remove the list of attacks from this article as it is an article on South Armagh Republican Action Force not a chronology of attacks by them. BigDunc 19:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Troubles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
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Five Protestant civilians died and seven were injured as a result of an attack on an Orange Hall in Newtownhamilton, County Armagh. Responsibility for the attack was claimed by a group called the South Armagh Republican Action force (SARAF) which was considered by many commentators to be a covername for members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).
Added back. One Night In Hackney 303 22:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Well John McCooey, 22, from Cullyhanna, was convicted in connection with the Tullyvallen Orange Hall massacre, as well as being convicted for being a member of the IRA. So if the SARAF claimed the attack and one of the guys arrested and convicted for it was also convicted for being a a member of the IRA, then you have to assume that the SARAF was a covername for the IRA not possibly.
Or state that John McCooey was convicted for it and being an IRA member which gives credence to claims the SARAF was a covername for the IRA. How about that then? Mabuska 22:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I've already had discussion with DerryBoi on this matter months ago and he failed to give me the convention he claimed that stated murders during the Troubles must be stated as killings, forcing him to give up on the agenda. It was left to me and gaillimh to come to an agreement which resulted in the use of the word murder. Why? Here is why:
Murder means unlawful killing. Terrorists from both sdies in Northern Ireland who where tried for taking someones life where done for committing murder, just as ones where done for attempted murder. I've never heard of anyone done for attempted killing etc.
All deaths by terrorist organisations are murder. Just because a side may view murders committed by them as lawful does not make them so. All deaths at the hands of loyalists and republicans were unlawful which means murder.
The use of the words killed/killing aim to justify the deaths, however thats only in a war. The only people who believed that there was a war where the paramilitaries, everyone else believed they where just terrorists and murderers.
So i'm changing it back to murder, which i hope you don't revert unless you can first provide me the convention that says it must be killed, as murder is the appropriate term for deaths by paramilitary terrorists. I'm gonna have to see about this matter on loyalist massacres as well. Mabuska 22:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
At least you and me are discussing this unlike Mr Padraig and his recent edit. Mabuska 23:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
@ Hackney Okay dokey, i'll leave the issue until consensus is changed, i was unaware of the consensus at the start of this evenings precedings, and you have done what DerryBoi failed to, showed me the consensus. However on what constitutes murder in the UK, for future reference i'd like your source for UK law requiring perpetrators having to be of sound mind as reading [4], the murder law reform reported here doesn't appear to state this being the case. All i can find on Google is 2005 articles on UK murder law reviews and ideas etc. Mabuska 00:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I would also have to disagree with you there Mabuska you say above The deaths of the IRA men in Loughall can be lawfully justified in that sense as they where carrying out an attack that was aimed at taking lives. Loughgall was not an attack aimed at taking lives at all, as it was a part time police station and was supposed to be unmanned at the time of the attack. The security forces deliberately placed men inside the station which would allow all other forces in the area (and there were plenty) to immediately open fire on the IRA unit. So what actually happened was the security forces deliberately manufactured a situation that would allow them to open fire without warning. BigDunc 13:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Mabuska I hate to be the one who lets the facts get in the way of your opinion but: They had come to destroy Loughgall RUC station, an unmanned base, using a digger with a bomb in the bucket. [5]
Among the terrorists gunned down at Loughgall as they approached the unmanned station in a hijacked digger carrying a 200lb bomb was brigade commander Patrick Kelly. [6]. Now this talk page is not a soap box for your views. The next comment like "I have to diagree with your republican POV," will be brought to the attention of an Admin. Now put up Diff's to back up your opinion, or say nothing. -- Domer48 21:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Thats no problem Mabuska, I've learned one thing on this though, when your right nobody remembers, and when your wrong nobody forgets. -- Domer48 08:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I intend to remove the list of attacks from this article as it is an article on South Armagh Republican Action Force not a chronology of attacks by them. BigDunc 19:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)