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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The article repeatedly claims that white farmers are not disproportionately targeted during farm attacks. That may or may not be true, but the article does not provide any statistics comparing the number of whites and blacks being killed (Stats show that white farmers are being killed at a rate of 56 per 100) . I have not read through every source cited in the article, but the article itself does not showcase any statistical data on the topic. What percentage of farm attack victims are white? Given that a sizable portion of the article is dedicated to debunking theories of "white genocide", we should include statistics that show the number of victims by race. If such evidence currently does not exist, then perhaps it is unwise to dismiss the notion that white farmers are being disproportionately targeted. Jgriffy98 ( talk) 04:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed; this is cited to seven high-quality sources. In other words, the claims that the attacks disproportionately target whites are without basis; demanding that the article include statistics to disprove a claim that has no basis to begin with doesn't make any sense. -- Aquillion ( talk) 19:07, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killedis ambiguous on this point. A Thousand Words ( talk) 05:37, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
There are tons of reliable figures. Articles, photos and videos. As someone who lives in South Africa and has been a victim, this is a real thing. Headlines have been made. Do research and stop changing it that it seems like a myth. It's LITERALLY on articles. It's impossible for thousands of people to claim it when there is figures and evidence. Our economy also shows it. You are suppose to be giving facts not false theories. FreyaGoddess777 ( talk) 01:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
This article treats Farm Murders like a conspiracy theory and the see also also leads to Conspiracy Theory's. My problem is that we should reword it, maybe with an emphasis that there are farmers being killed, and it's not just Afrikaners, there have also been reports of Zulu, Xhosa and other tribes of farmers being killed. 102.250.3.184 ( talk) 08:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Having just read the article properly, I can’t believe how biased the entire article is. Political leaders of South Africa have on numerous occasions incited their followers to kill white farmers 1, 2, 3 amongst many other publications, so I don’t know how this can be classed as conspiracy theories. Equine-man ( talk) 12:39, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
South African farm attacks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This page needs to be removed and replaced with real facts, as is this page is racist and anti minorities, please show me one statistic from a NON ANC sourse thats supports any of the claims made by this biased reporting. 2C0F:F4C0:230E:AAC:9960:FC2A:BB53:C814 ( talk) 01:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
The word "occasionally" was just added to describe attacks on black farmers and workers. I believe this description runs counter to what the sources actually say:
The basic premise of these sources is that farm attack victims include both white and black victims, but that black victims are undercounted (or even uncounted) while more attention is being put on white victims. I don't believe that black farmers and their workers are occasionally also victims of violent attacks
is an accurate summary.
Woodroar (
talk)
01:29, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Heavily disputed claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whitesand
There are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers...are at a disproportionate risk of being killed.I have not read any reliable sources that say black farmers and workers are "occasionally" victims; the three cited to that statement clearly do not support it. Woodroar ( talk) 04:03, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
The removal of the word "occasionally" was done prematurely. The fact that claims are "heavily disputed" means that distortion, obfuscation and obscurantism concerning these attacks is taking place. Closer analysis of facts and statistics, and comparison of all available sources (both those deemed "reliable" as well as independent media), is necessary in order to discern the truth of what is actually taking place in South Africa. Corporate media narratives will tend to hedge the black-led government from criticism over its hostile, anti-white, pro-violent crime policies, which spill over even into the black community itself. To claim that they are statistically comparable is a false equivalence. - JGabbard ( talk) 02:49, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
a reliable source that directly supportsthe word "occasionally" and we can discuss it. We're not going to synth our way through statistics, especially those from unreliable sources, to determine how many murders of black people feels "occasional". Woodroar ( talk) 12:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
The current lede's definition of "South African farm attacks" is obviously odd, and probably unsupported by the sources. In normal usage, "South African farm attacks" refers to attacks on farms in South Africa, not to claims or conspiracy theories. The phenomenon might have associated claims and theories which should be mentioned, but they do not define the phenomenon. If this article is really about claims and conspiracy theories, it should be moved to a new page (something like "White SA farmer genocide theory"?). I tried to rewrite the lede, but was reverted. Does anyone oppose rewriting the lede to a more straightforward definition? Ornilnas ( talk) 12:25, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
I've now been reverted twice, despite nobody actually arguing in favor of the current wording. Can someone explain why defining "South African farm attacks" as a "claim" is correct, and in line with Wikipedia policy/conventions? Or come up with a better wording than mine, without reverting wholesale? I'm fine with almost any other wording than the current. Ornilnas ( talk) 04:21, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
If the reason for this second revert was that I removed the sources for the original "definition", I'm fine with putting them elsewhere in the lede or body. They just don't support the new definition; nor did they actually support the previous definition (as discussed above). Ornilnas ( talk) 04:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
The current lede goes into very minute detail about a specific controversy regarding these farm attacks (whether they are racially motivated or not). While that controversy is indeed a very important aspect of the attacks, it could probably be much more succinctly summarized in the lede, and instead expanded upon in the body. I also think the controversy should come *after* describing the scope of the attacks (number of attacks, trends etc.), which are basic facts that underlie the resulting controversy. There are also way too many sources given in the lede; they generally belong in the body. Any thoughts? Ornilnas ( talk) 03:30, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
"Every year, hundreds of South African farm attacks ( Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) lead to the murder of dozens of farmers and farm workers.". I've reverted it. Please do not restore unless and until a consensus forms here. At a minimum, there needs to be a discussion of the sources (which were all removed by you). Bishonen | tålk 03:48, 13 April 2022 (UTC).
In recent decades, dozens of South African farmers and farm workers have been murdered each year in South African farm attacks (Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle). Afrikaner activist groups like AfriForum and Transvaal Agricultural Union have claimed that white South African farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the general population of South Africa. Such claims have largely beendisbunkeddebunked, as there are no reliable figures suggesting that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. The African National Congress and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation. The claims are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide.
The result of the move request was: page Not Moved. ( non-admin closure) signed, 511KeV (talk) 09:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
South African farm attacks →
South African farm attacks conspiracy theory – Reliable sources frequently refer to the claim that white South African farmers are targeted and/or disproportionally murdered in South Africa as a conspiracy theory. The most notable thing about the farm attacks in South Africa claim is their frequent usage by white nationalists and relationship to the
white genocide conspiracy theory. Information about crime can be added to
Crime in South Africa.
White farmers: how a far-right idea was planted in Donald Trump's mind - The Guardian
The idea that there is a ‘genocide’ of white farmers in South Africa was once the province of conspiracy theorists but, thanks to News Corp’s media promotion, it has moved into the policy realm
The conspiracy theory of “white genocide” has been a staple of the racist far right for decades. It has taken many forms, but all of them imagine that there is a plot to either replace, remove or simply liquidate white populations.
Trump’s tweet echoing white nationalist propaganda about South African farmers, explained - Vox
The conspiracy theory is based on the very real — and very controversial — issue of post-apartheid land reform in South Africa. But the white nationalists who propagate it have taken what is a genuinely thorny issue and magnified it beyond all objective fact, twisting it into what they see as a nightmare cautionary tale of “white genocide.”
They're prepping for a race war. And they see Trump as their 'ray of hope' - CNN
The biggest problem with AfriForum’s claims about possible ethnic cleansing and farm murders is that they are not true, says Gareth Newham of the Institute of Security Studies (ISS), a South African research group.
"There is no evidence to support that. There is no evidence that a group of people are killing farmers for political purposes. There is no evidence that they are doing it because they are listening to political leaders. It is happening because of crime,” says Newham.
Is a ‘Large-Scale Killing’ of White Farmers Underway in South Africa? - Snopes
"The “large scale killings” phrase included in Trump’s tweet was an invocation of “white genocide,” a conspiracy theory popular among white supremacists who have for years been attempting to advance the baseless claim that white South African farmers are being systematically murdered en masse."
Farm killings and conspiracy theories on South Africa - The New Zealand Herald
President Donald Trump's promotion of a white nationalist conspiracy theory involving South Africa has prompted a fierce backlash there and fresh criticism in the United States that he is compromising American foreign policy to stoke his far-right political base.
White nationalists in the US and South Africa, where a fringe group called Afriforum has advanced the conspiracy theory, hailed the President's remarks. David Duke, a former Ku Klux Klan leader, thanked Trump on Twitter and tweeted an image of a white woman holding a sign reading, "Stop white genocide". Mike Peinovich, a far-right podcast host, called Trump's endorsement "Very big" and said "this is how we slowly chip away at the all-consuming anti-white discourse".
Desertambition (
talk)
04:41, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
The lede currently reads:
The term South African farm attacks (
Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) refers to the claim that white
South African farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the murder rate in the general population of South Africa.
[note 1]
Attempts to alter the lede are met with reverts and suggestions to move the article; attempts to move the article are met with opposition and suggestions to rewrite the lede. Yet we must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I've yet to see anyone actually argue that the current lede is reasonable. It is clearly incorrect ("South African farm attacks" do not "refer to a claim"; they are a real phenomenon), borderline nonsensical (how could an "attack" be a "claim"?), and unsupported by the sources (which treat the attacks as real, not as claims about racial statistics or motivations). This needs to be fixed, even if all the potential solutions are disliked by someone. If someone thinks the current lede should remain unchanged, I request that they explain how the current language is reasonable. It's not enough to claim that it represents a consensus; that it's the result of years of painstaking editing; or that you don't like any of the potential solutions. Explain how it is correct, how the wording is perfectly natural, and how the current sources support it. If we can't do that, the current wording must go, however which way (rewrite, move, split, or even delete). Ornilnas ( talk) 07:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Version of the lead of 02:36, 23 December 2019 |
---|
South African farm attacks (
Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) are violent crimes, including murder, assault and robbery, that take place on farms in
South Africa.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[5] The attacks target farmers, who are usually white, and farm workers, who are usually black.
[2]
[3] Black farmers are also victims of violent attacks.
[6]
[1] The term has no formal legal definition, but such attacks have been the subject of discussion by media and public figures in South Africa and abroad. There is insufficient data to reliably estimate a murder rate for South African farmers.
[7] South African government data indicated between 58 and 74 murders on farms annually in the period 2015–2017; out of an annual murder count of 20,000 total murders in South Africa;
[8]
[9] these figures are broadly consistent with figures collected by the
Transvaal Agricultural Union (TAU), a farmers' union.
[10]
[11] Due to the problems associated with counting the number of South African farmers and farm murders, it is unclear whether farmers are at greater risk of being murdered than other South Africans.
[7]
Data released by the South African government in 2018 showed that the number of farm attacks had increased between 2012 and 2018, but that the number of murders on farms had decreased year by year during the period. [11] During the same year farming organisation AgriSA reported on police statistics [12] [13] [14] which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, [15] to a third of the level recorded in 1998. [16] [17] [18] Unsubstantiated claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide. [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] However, there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. [1] [7] [20] [25] [26] [27] [24] The Government of South Africa and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation. [2] [20] [28] [29] |
References
702burgerafriforumworkers
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).foreignPolicyTacit
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).frankChungBuryThemAlive
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).reuters
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).iolJB
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I’m ok with reverting the opening sentence to the version above (I believe I wrote most of that sentence and it was both durable and factual and reflected consensus at the time). Perhaps we should solicit the opinion of the editor who rewrote the opening sentence and get their opinion on this. I certainly don’t think we should be WP:RGW in this article, and activist editing simply discredits the encyclopedia. Most readers are intelligent enough to draw reasonable conclusions about the material without being bashed on the head. Park3r ( talk) 10:59, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Extracts from the version of the lead of 09:40, 21 April 2022 | Extracts from the version of the lead of 02:36, 23 December 2019 |
---|---|
Data released by the South African government in 2018 showed that the number of attacks on farms had increased between 2012 and 2018, but that the number of murders on farms had decreased year by year during the period. [1] During the same year farming organisation AgriSA reported on police statistics [2] [3] [4] which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, [5] to a third of the level recorded in 1998. [6] [7] [8] | Data released by the South African government in 2018 showed that the number of farm attacks had increased between 2012 and 2018, but that the number of murders on farms had decreased year by year during the period. [1] During the same year farming organisation AgriSA reported on police statistics [2] [3] [4] which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, [5] to a third of the level recorded in 1998. [6] [7] [8] |
Heavily disputed claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide. [note 1] | Unsubstantiated claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] |
There are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. [note 2] The African National Congress and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation. [note 3] | However, there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. [15] [16] [10] [17] [18] [19] [14] The Government of South Africa and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation. [20] [10] [21] [22] |
The term South African farm attacks ( Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) refers to the claim that white South African farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the murder rate in the general population of South Africa. [note 4] | South African farm attacks ( Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) are violent crimes, including murder, assault and robbery, that take place on farms in South Africa. [15] [20] [23] [25] The attacks target farmers, who are usually white, and farm workers, who are usually black. [20] [23] Black farmers are also victims of violent attacks. [26] [15] The term has no formal legal definition, but such attacks have been the subject of discussion by media and public figures in South Africa and abroad. There is insufficient data to reliably estimate a murder rate for South African farmers. [16] South African government data indicated between 58 and 74 murders on farms annually in the period 2015–2017; out of an annual murder count of 20,000 total murders in South Africa; [27] [28] these figures are broadly consistent with figures collected by the Transvaal Agricultural Union (TAU), a farmers' union. [29] [1] Due to the problems associated with counting the number of South African farmers and farm murders, it is unclear whether farmers are at greater risk of being murdered than other South Africans. [16] |
References
References
foreignPolicyTacit
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).frankChungBuryThemAlive
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).702burgerafriforumworkers
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).reuters
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).iolJB
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The term 'south african farm attacks' refers to the idea that whites are being disproportionately murdered? According to who? I have never heard a single person say this- ever, and the four sources you give as a citation are debunking it all without citing who exactly is making the claim in the first place. The claim is that white farmers are being murdered because they are white farmers. What does the proportion of other people being murdered for other reasons have to do with anything? This article reads like a Snopes fact check- sticking a claim in somebody's mouth so it can be disproved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.198.97.148 ( talk) 04:32, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The article repeatedly claims that white farmers are not disproportionately targeted during farm attacks. That may or may not be true, but the article does not provide any statistics comparing the number of whites and blacks being killed (Stats show that white farmers are being killed at a rate of 56 per 100) . I have not read through every source cited in the article, but the article itself does not showcase any statistical data on the topic. What percentage of farm attack victims are white? Given that a sizable portion of the article is dedicated to debunking theories of "white genocide", we should include statistics that show the number of victims by race. If such evidence currently does not exist, then perhaps it is unwise to dismiss the notion that white farmers are being disproportionately targeted. Jgriffy98 ( talk) 04:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed; this is cited to seven high-quality sources. In other words, the claims that the attacks disproportionately target whites are without basis; demanding that the article include statistics to disprove a claim that has no basis to begin with doesn't make any sense. -- Aquillion ( talk) 19:07, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killedis ambiguous on this point. A Thousand Words ( talk) 05:37, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
There are tons of reliable figures. Articles, photos and videos. As someone who lives in South Africa and has been a victim, this is a real thing. Headlines have been made. Do research and stop changing it that it seems like a myth. It's LITERALLY on articles. It's impossible for thousands of people to claim it when there is figures and evidence. Our economy also shows it. You are suppose to be giving facts not false theories. FreyaGoddess777 ( talk) 01:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
This article treats Farm Murders like a conspiracy theory and the see also also leads to Conspiracy Theory's. My problem is that we should reword it, maybe with an emphasis that there are farmers being killed, and it's not just Afrikaners, there have also been reports of Zulu, Xhosa and other tribes of farmers being killed. 102.250.3.184 ( talk) 08:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Having just read the article properly, I can’t believe how biased the entire article is. Political leaders of South Africa have on numerous occasions incited their followers to kill white farmers 1, 2, 3 amongst many other publications, so I don’t know how this can be classed as conspiracy theories. Equine-man ( talk) 12:39, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
South African farm attacks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This page needs to be removed and replaced with real facts, as is this page is racist and anti minorities, please show me one statistic from a NON ANC sourse thats supports any of the claims made by this biased reporting. 2C0F:F4C0:230E:AAC:9960:FC2A:BB53:C814 ( talk) 01:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
The word "occasionally" was just added to describe attacks on black farmers and workers. I believe this description runs counter to what the sources actually say:
The basic premise of these sources is that farm attack victims include both white and black victims, but that black victims are undercounted (or even uncounted) while more attention is being put on white victims. I don't believe that black farmers and their workers are occasionally also victims of violent attacks
is an accurate summary.
Woodroar (
talk)
01:29, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Heavily disputed claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whitesand
There are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers...are at a disproportionate risk of being killed.I have not read any reliable sources that say black farmers and workers are "occasionally" victims; the three cited to that statement clearly do not support it. Woodroar ( talk) 04:03, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
The removal of the word "occasionally" was done prematurely. The fact that claims are "heavily disputed" means that distortion, obfuscation and obscurantism concerning these attacks is taking place. Closer analysis of facts and statistics, and comparison of all available sources (both those deemed "reliable" as well as independent media), is necessary in order to discern the truth of what is actually taking place in South Africa. Corporate media narratives will tend to hedge the black-led government from criticism over its hostile, anti-white, pro-violent crime policies, which spill over even into the black community itself. To claim that they are statistically comparable is a false equivalence. - JGabbard ( talk) 02:49, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
a reliable source that directly supportsthe word "occasionally" and we can discuss it. We're not going to synth our way through statistics, especially those from unreliable sources, to determine how many murders of black people feels "occasional". Woodroar ( talk) 12:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
The current lede's definition of "South African farm attacks" is obviously odd, and probably unsupported by the sources. In normal usage, "South African farm attacks" refers to attacks on farms in South Africa, not to claims or conspiracy theories. The phenomenon might have associated claims and theories which should be mentioned, but they do not define the phenomenon. If this article is really about claims and conspiracy theories, it should be moved to a new page (something like "White SA farmer genocide theory"?). I tried to rewrite the lede, but was reverted. Does anyone oppose rewriting the lede to a more straightforward definition? Ornilnas ( talk) 12:25, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
I've now been reverted twice, despite nobody actually arguing in favor of the current wording. Can someone explain why defining "South African farm attacks" as a "claim" is correct, and in line with Wikipedia policy/conventions? Or come up with a better wording than mine, without reverting wholesale? I'm fine with almost any other wording than the current. Ornilnas ( talk) 04:21, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
If the reason for this second revert was that I removed the sources for the original "definition", I'm fine with putting them elsewhere in the lede or body. They just don't support the new definition; nor did they actually support the previous definition (as discussed above). Ornilnas ( talk) 04:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
The current lede goes into very minute detail about a specific controversy regarding these farm attacks (whether they are racially motivated or not). While that controversy is indeed a very important aspect of the attacks, it could probably be much more succinctly summarized in the lede, and instead expanded upon in the body. I also think the controversy should come *after* describing the scope of the attacks (number of attacks, trends etc.), which are basic facts that underlie the resulting controversy. There are also way too many sources given in the lede; they generally belong in the body. Any thoughts? Ornilnas ( talk) 03:30, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
"Every year, hundreds of South African farm attacks ( Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) lead to the murder of dozens of farmers and farm workers.". I've reverted it. Please do not restore unless and until a consensus forms here. At a minimum, there needs to be a discussion of the sources (which were all removed by you). Bishonen | tålk 03:48, 13 April 2022 (UTC).
In recent decades, dozens of South African farmers and farm workers have been murdered each year in South African farm attacks (Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle). Afrikaner activist groups like AfriForum and Transvaal Agricultural Union have claimed that white South African farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the general population of South Africa. Such claims have largely beendisbunkeddebunked, as there are no reliable figures suggesting that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. The African National Congress and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation. The claims are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide.
The result of the move request was: page Not Moved. ( non-admin closure) signed, 511KeV (talk) 09:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
South African farm attacks →
South African farm attacks conspiracy theory – Reliable sources frequently refer to the claim that white South African farmers are targeted and/or disproportionally murdered in South Africa as a conspiracy theory. The most notable thing about the farm attacks in South Africa claim is their frequent usage by white nationalists and relationship to the
white genocide conspiracy theory. Information about crime can be added to
Crime in South Africa.
White farmers: how a far-right idea was planted in Donald Trump's mind - The Guardian
The idea that there is a ‘genocide’ of white farmers in South Africa was once the province of conspiracy theorists but, thanks to News Corp’s media promotion, it has moved into the policy realm
The conspiracy theory of “white genocide” has been a staple of the racist far right for decades. It has taken many forms, but all of them imagine that there is a plot to either replace, remove or simply liquidate white populations.
Trump’s tweet echoing white nationalist propaganda about South African farmers, explained - Vox
The conspiracy theory is based on the very real — and very controversial — issue of post-apartheid land reform in South Africa. But the white nationalists who propagate it have taken what is a genuinely thorny issue and magnified it beyond all objective fact, twisting it into what they see as a nightmare cautionary tale of “white genocide.”
They're prepping for a race war. And they see Trump as their 'ray of hope' - CNN
The biggest problem with AfriForum’s claims about possible ethnic cleansing and farm murders is that they are not true, says Gareth Newham of the Institute of Security Studies (ISS), a South African research group.
"There is no evidence to support that. There is no evidence that a group of people are killing farmers for political purposes. There is no evidence that they are doing it because they are listening to political leaders. It is happening because of crime,” says Newham.
Is a ‘Large-Scale Killing’ of White Farmers Underway in South Africa? - Snopes
"The “large scale killings” phrase included in Trump’s tweet was an invocation of “white genocide,” a conspiracy theory popular among white supremacists who have for years been attempting to advance the baseless claim that white South African farmers are being systematically murdered en masse."
Farm killings and conspiracy theories on South Africa - The New Zealand Herald
President Donald Trump's promotion of a white nationalist conspiracy theory involving South Africa has prompted a fierce backlash there and fresh criticism in the United States that he is compromising American foreign policy to stoke his far-right political base.
White nationalists in the US and South Africa, where a fringe group called Afriforum has advanced the conspiracy theory, hailed the President's remarks. David Duke, a former Ku Klux Klan leader, thanked Trump on Twitter and tweeted an image of a white woman holding a sign reading, "Stop white genocide". Mike Peinovich, a far-right podcast host, called Trump's endorsement "Very big" and said "this is how we slowly chip away at the all-consuming anti-white discourse".
Desertambition (
talk)
04:41, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
The lede currently reads:
The term South African farm attacks (
Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) refers to the claim that white
South African farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the murder rate in the general population of South Africa.
[note 1]
Attempts to alter the lede are met with reverts and suggestions to move the article; attempts to move the article are met with opposition and suggestions to rewrite the lede. Yet we must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I've yet to see anyone actually argue that the current lede is reasonable. It is clearly incorrect ("South African farm attacks" do not "refer to a claim"; they are a real phenomenon), borderline nonsensical (how could an "attack" be a "claim"?), and unsupported by the sources (which treat the attacks as real, not as claims about racial statistics or motivations). This needs to be fixed, even if all the potential solutions are disliked by someone. If someone thinks the current lede should remain unchanged, I request that they explain how the current language is reasonable. It's not enough to claim that it represents a consensus; that it's the result of years of painstaking editing; or that you don't like any of the potential solutions. Explain how it is correct, how the wording is perfectly natural, and how the current sources support it. If we can't do that, the current wording must go, however which way (rewrite, move, split, or even delete). Ornilnas ( talk) 07:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Version of the lead of 02:36, 23 December 2019 |
---|
South African farm attacks (
Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) are violent crimes, including murder, assault and robbery, that take place on farms in
South Africa.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[5] The attacks target farmers, who are usually white, and farm workers, who are usually black.
[2]
[3] Black farmers are also victims of violent attacks.
[6]
[1] The term has no formal legal definition, but such attacks have been the subject of discussion by media and public figures in South Africa and abroad. There is insufficient data to reliably estimate a murder rate for South African farmers.
[7] South African government data indicated between 58 and 74 murders on farms annually in the period 2015–2017; out of an annual murder count of 20,000 total murders in South Africa;
[8]
[9] these figures are broadly consistent with figures collected by the
Transvaal Agricultural Union (TAU), a farmers' union.
[10]
[11] Due to the problems associated with counting the number of South African farmers and farm murders, it is unclear whether farmers are at greater risk of being murdered than other South Africans.
[7]
Data released by the South African government in 2018 showed that the number of farm attacks had increased between 2012 and 2018, but that the number of murders on farms had decreased year by year during the period. [11] During the same year farming organisation AgriSA reported on police statistics [12] [13] [14] which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, [15] to a third of the level recorded in 1998. [16] [17] [18] Unsubstantiated claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide. [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] However, there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. [1] [7] [20] [25] [26] [27] [24] The Government of South Africa and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation. [2] [20] [28] [29] |
References
702burgerafriforumworkers
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).foreignPolicyTacit
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).frankChungBuryThemAlive
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).reuters
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).iolJB
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I’m ok with reverting the opening sentence to the version above (I believe I wrote most of that sentence and it was both durable and factual and reflected consensus at the time). Perhaps we should solicit the opinion of the editor who rewrote the opening sentence and get their opinion on this. I certainly don’t think we should be WP:RGW in this article, and activist editing simply discredits the encyclopedia. Most readers are intelligent enough to draw reasonable conclusions about the material without being bashed on the head. Park3r ( talk) 10:59, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Extracts from the version of the lead of 09:40, 21 April 2022 | Extracts from the version of the lead of 02:36, 23 December 2019 |
---|---|
Data released by the South African government in 2018 showed that the number of attacks on farms had increased between 2012 and 2018, but that the number of murders on farms had decreased year by year during the period. [1] During the same year farming organisation AgriSA reported on police statistics [2] [3] [4] which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, [5] to a third of the level recorded in 1998. [6] [7] [8] | Data released by the South African government in 2018 showed that the number of farm attacks had increased between 2012 and 2018, but that the number of murders on farms had decreased year by year during the period. [1] During the same year farming organisation AgriSA reported on police statistics [2] [3] [4] which suggested that the murder rate on farms had declined to the lowest level in 20 years, [5] to a third of the level recorded in 1998. [6] [7] [8] |
Heavily disputed claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide. [note 1] | Unsubstantiated claims that such attacks on farmers disproportionately target whites are a key element of the white genocide conspiracy theory and have become a common talking point among white nationalists worldwide. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] |
There are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. [note 2] The African National Congress and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation. [note 3] | However, there are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are being targeted in particular or that they are at a disproportionate risk of being killed. [15] [16] [10] [17] [18] [19] [14] The Government of South Africa and other analysts maintain that farm attacks are part of a broader crime problem in South Africa and do not have a racial motivation. [20] [10] [21] [22] |
The term South African farm attacks ( Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) refers to the claim that white South African farmers are murdered at a higher rate than the murder rate in the general population of South Africa. [note 4] | South African farm attacks ( Afrikaans: plaasaanvalle) are violent crimes, including murder, assault and robbery, that take place on farms in South Africa. [15] [20] [23] [25] The attacks target farmers, who are usually white, and farm workers, who are usually black. [20] [23] Black farmers are also victims of violent attacks. [26] [15] The term has no formal legal definition, but such attacks have been the subject of discussion by media and public figures in South Africa and abroad. There is insufficient data to reliably estimate a murder rate for South African farmers. [16] South African government data indicated between 58 and 74 murders on farms annually in the period 2015–2017; out of an annual murder count of 20,000 total murders in South Africa; [27] [28] these figures are broadly consistent with figures collected by the Transvaal Agricultural Union (TAU), a farmers' union. [29] [1] Due to the problems associated with counting the number of South African farmers and farm murders, it is unclear whether farmers are at greater risk of being murdered than other South Africans. [16] |
References
References
foreignPolicyTacit
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).frankChungBuryThemAlive
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).702burgerafriforumworkers
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).reuters
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).iolJB
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The term 'south african farm attacks' refers to the idea that whites are being disproportionately murdered? According to who? I have never heard a single person say this- ever, and the four sources you give as a citation are debunking it all without citing who exactly is making the claim in the first place. The claim is that white farmers are being murdered because they are white farmers. What does the proportion of other people being murdered for other reasons have to do with anything? This article reads like a Snopes fact check- sticking a claim in somebody's mouth so it can be disproved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.198.97.148 ( talk) 04:32, 29 September 2021 (UTC)