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I found this on Talk:South Africa, so I pasted it in, as I figured it was relevant:
From that article, it doesn't seem as if farmer murders are to blame. It seems that the supply and demand cycle is more at fault here. The farmers have been feeding the maize to their livestock, and hoarding it for next season, and many of them won't be planting it next year, because the price isn't right. Don't worry, we'll just import it from rich western countries who subsidize their farmers. But that's a whole other debate. -- Slashme 13:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
All of which has nothing to do with farm murders. Maybe after next year's lower maize harvest, the farmers will see the higher prices and start planting maize again. And as for "farmer culls" - Hah. Strange sense of humour.
Have you ever visited South Africa? It's really quite affordable if you don't go to hotels that cater exclusively for tourists. I would advise against the summer, though. Autumn and spring are great seasons here. There really are parts of the country that could very well be described as "paradise". -- Slashme 10:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I find it interesting that for all the talk about racism and "Genocide" against the Afrikaners, the majority of murders (while I don't have statistics, you can tell because of it's most common in places like Soweto and Khaletayisha) are still be commited against black africans! and also, in regard to a comment made from a PAC minister: "You whites will be killed by(sic)flies when Mandela dies." is greatly emphasized to ridiculousness. that party won only 0.02% of the parliament seats, or 3 out of 400! that is the extent of this parties influence. P.S. a number of White south Africans are in parliament on behalf of the ANC. while a number crossed over from the NP and NNP, many of these people have even been reelected in black districts.
And the daily bloodshed among farmers goes on. Nothing stolen. --Jvb – January 4, 2005
Despite the dreaded Affirmative Action, a larger proportion of white graduates manages to find employment after one year of graduation than any other racial group in South Africa. As for the diaspora, a large proportion go overseas to make good money and get valuable experience, then return, due to their liking for ZA conditions. I know a number of these personally. -- Slashme 10:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I wonder how many of the murder claims are hoaxes brought upon us by Trekboers who just want to go back to the days of Apartheid. If there are hoax murders, that ought to be put into the article as well. 205.188.116.196 01:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed a little bit of POV that has crept in around the Govt Committee of Enquiry. Also taken out the inferential leap that claims of genocide are supported by the statistic that over 60% of victims of farm attacks are white. Also added note for the 2004 report from the US State Department, based on figures from AgriSA, that confirms the continued downward trend in the number of farm attacks. Humansdorpie 13:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jvb, the statement that hideous songs allegedly play an important role in genocide aimed at white farmers is a) POV and b) reliant on a number of supporting propositions, none of which is specified or substantiated; I've removed it. I'm also unclear how reference 5 supports the statement that "Some lobby groups claim that the attacks are genocidal in nature. This is supported by the belief that many cases have involved murder with no damage to or theft of property". The reference (a 2004 US State Dept report) quotes the government report that "the perpetrators in the great majority of cases appeared to be common criminals motivated by financial gain". What if we conflate the two existing sentences and put something like, Some lobby groups claim that the attacks are genocidal in nature and believe that many cases have involved murder with no damage to or theft of property.? The next section then presents the government's response to those claims and beliefs. Humansdorpie 15:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi JvB,
I have moved the discussion on hate speech to the section that already deals with "kill the boer" etc, and have removed the links to white supremacist websites, and made the links to reputable media into references. Let's once again see whether we can find a middle ground here. -- Slashme 13:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
It is fucking disgusting. Even babies and old people it is genocide. Fuck the rainbow nation. It’s a fucking joke. Just look at this [20]
Is there a reason for the capitals? If it includes the murders of "young infants", should the title be changed? -- Jeandré, 2006-07-27 t18:41z
Having lived as a farm labourer in South African farms I want to bring out one perspective. During apartheid white farmers (particularly Afrikaaners) hunted and killed black folks for sport. The deep seated hatred against black folks is strongest among the white farmers particularly the Afrikaaners. They have committed all kinds of brutal crimes i.e. rape, murders and more. You can confirm this with court records particularly the Bloemfontein judicial system is filled with these sorts of cases. Since the new government took over in 1994 some of these farm labourers attack white farmers in reaction to this brutal history. White farmers always portray themselves as victims but conceal the fact that the violence they are subjected to is a reactive phenomenon and has its roots in the past. If you think reasonably, it does not make sense for any human being to carry out unprovoked attacks against another human being for no valid reason. Obviously this does not justify the attacks but unfortunately as long as the truth is not told then these things will continue to happen and we will never learn anything from them. He who ignores history is bound to repeat it. I personally watched helplessly my mother being brutalized by an Afrikaaner farmer. He was armed with a gun in broad daylight and he threatened to shoot me if I intervened. Can you imagine being put on hold at gunpoint while your mother is being savagely beaten in front of your eyes? This happened in 1987 on the Doornkop farms near Soweto and Johannesburg. I am still traumatized from this experience. There was a time when I thought of taking an AK-47 to return to that farm to do some retaliatory damage in the hope of being cleansed from this traumatizing experience. Many who do not sublimate their emotional memories end up doing exactly that. What I have outlined is one big piece of the puzzle with respect to attacks against white farmers in South Africa. The black farmers who get killed are usually attacked by white folks. In 1985 as a television journalist for the SABC TV News in the Free State province I covered a story of a black worker who had been killed by his Afrikaaner boss. The farmer had decided to kill him in revenge of his Afrikaaner father that had been killed on the farm by unknown assailants. The farmer told us the unknown assailants had killed his father and farm worker. Other eye witnesses corroborated otherwise. The farmer had decided that his black farm labourer had to pay for this and since this was during apartheid there was no investigation into the crime and anyone who saw this lived in fear and the Afrikaaner went about his life as if nothing had happened. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zulumathabo ( talk • contribs) 02:08, 3 August 2006.
First of all I would like to thank Khoikhoi for his warmest welcome and encouragement about following the rules and showing me the resources. Khokhoi you are doinga phenomenal job and I hold great admiration for you. I will learn from you and others here. Thank you.
Since making a posting regarding the mentality of impunity which prevails among white farmers regarding black farm labourers, I would like to make a few more points of fact. Before I do that let me just address the statement that some traumatized people will attack others because "...have read this article and its talk page". The most influencial thing is what you see in real life as opposed to what they say or want you to see. Experience does not lie. Moreover the purpose here is not to incite hate but to share our experiences.
I already indicated that my mother was brutalized by an Afrikaaner farmer on the Doornkop farms on the outskirts of Soweto and that I bear the scars of this savage attack against a defenseless woman who had provoked no one. This obviously took place in the pervasive atmosphere of impunity. I am reminded by a similar case whereby the white farmer Mr. Mark Scott-Crossley fed his former farm labourer Mr. Chisale into the lions in January of 2004. The BBC News team covered the story which can be sourced here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4492953.stm titled Killers fed farm worker to lions.
It is amazing that this story parallels my story in that Mr. Chisale had returned to this Phalaborwa farm to pick up his belongings in January 2004. My mother Mathabo had also returned to pick up her belongs at the Doornkop farm in April 1985. In both cases the white farmer acted violently and savagely with the result that in the case of Mr. Chisale he actually got eaten alive by the lions. In my case my mother was beaten and brutalized in front of me and I was kept at bay and helpless by the gun totting farmer.
Moreover my mother was not even properly dressed because I was waiting outside for her while she dressed up inside. The farmer just burst into the room where she was dressing and started assaulting her. All her under clothes were scattered on the ground and I went about picking them up one by one while she absorbed vicious blows from the bellicose farmer. I heard my mother cry aloud for her own mother who was not there. The apartheid system of justice was not there to help her. The following excerpt is a poetic record of that barbaric and sexist attack:
“that Doornkop farmer that feudal sexist Afrikaaner I remember him near Johannesburg He waged an undeclared war He emptied his vials of hate upon her, kicking her hard in daylight taking her life apart” It Was a Victim’s Fault from A Goodbye To My Little Troubles Copyright by Vusi Moloi © 1979 – 2004.
I am reminded of a journalist asking the Zimbabwean newly appointed Minister of Ocean Affairs in 1980 about how come Zimbabwe had a Minister of Ocean Affairs when there was no sea in Zimbabwe and he replied “it is just like apartheid South Africa. There is a Minister of Justice there but there is no justice.”
In a two-year study headed by the South African Human Rights Commission Ms. Charlotte McClain-Nhlapo whom I had a privilege of meeting in North America it was found that a culture of violence and impunity of violent acts against black farm labourers were rife. This is a study released in 2004 having been commissioned by Mr. Mandela. The Commissioner was appointed by Mr. Mandela. The BBC News reported on this report under the title South Africa's violent farms and it can be sourced here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3202871.stm using the web.
To put things in perspective the attacks against the farmers are not justified and I am not here to justify those acts of violence. No human being should attack another. If we are civilized as we would like to think we are then we should have the sophistication of solving the most difficult problems through logic. Racial hate diminishes the well-being of the victim as well as the racist.
I still find it incredible that despite the brutal apartheid experience that I have suffered I bear neither grudge no hate against Caucasians. In fact one of the greatest human beings that I worship the ground he walks on is Mr. Van Zyl Slabbert a hardcore Afrikaaner. He is the greatest human being and a very handsome guy too. He combines both brainpower and natural physical beauty and this is a rare combination. Moreover he is a very sweet human being. We are all blessed to have someone like him. There are many Afrikaaners in the same way including the great Afrikaaner woman legend Bettie du Toit. I have friends whom I love deeply who are Afrikaaners. It is not about hate but about human beings respecting each other and accepting each other for who they are. It is also imperative that victims of apartheid are able to get over their experience and rebuild the country. I hope that this humble contribution will cast some new light into the topic at hand. Zulumathabo 04:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This one needs an answer. I am a white Afrikaans farmer. (female) I want to state to "haviglived as a farm labourer" that whoever he is, he is a lyer. I do not know of ANY white farmer killing any of his labourors. I grew up in a situation where our labourors were deemed "children" of my grandfather and my father, my father was even asked to clear up family fights among the labourers. Even though I am very happy that we are now all free of apartheid (it was a weight on our shoulders, for more than one reason) I seen that this talk page is visited by extremists on both sides. Lets face the facts: - it is true that crime in South Africa is very, very high. I have had a very close family member, an oly lady, that was brutally murdered. It is also true that there are a very high number of farm murders. This is common knowlege, it is a problem here in South Africa. The reasons for that, if believe, as with all crime in South Africa, is that rule of law is not upheld and that it is a danger to our society. To come back to the statements of "farm labourer". It is a case of believing what one wants. If one really want to believe this person, little can be done about it. (except for visiting South Africa and South African farms). Most (not all, every society has it's baddies) Afrikaans farmers are very devoted Christians, With Christian values, including that of love and respect. The depiction of me and my people as above is nothing but part of an attack on us. The article on farm murders was written, in my opinion, very objectively. The question is not if they occur, but why. That is not an easy one to answer, and I believe that the farm murders are also not a single case - there are a number of reasons, including common crime (by criminals, no use putting it on the shoulders of all black people, the murders are committed by the outcasts of society, who are getting more. That is the worrysome part. Too many children are growing up without familiy values, without parents; as a result of aids. I have heard statistics, that we have close to two million orphans of various ages. ) Some are racial attacks and other because of personal grievances - people get away with crime too easily... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.54.202.66 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 1 October 2006.
I am sorry, but this article was either originally written by an insane member of the Afrikanerweerstandsbeweging or someone who is extremely sympathetic to Afrikaner "Holocaust" Conspiracy Theories. Some controversial sentences don't even have sources (For Example "An orchestrated political terror campaign intended to drive white farmers off the land". This was listed as one of the reasons why farmers are getting killed. who's writing this shit? Stevo D 01:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
where are the credible sources? wasn't there a wikipedia rule about not using foreign language websites as sources for English Wikipedia Articles? Also, who ever written this article didn't know ALOT of black farmers were murdered too)
and those that do often lead to completely biased sources (For Example, Stop Boer Genocide is a site created by those looking for a Boer Staat). This article is complete and utter crap. I recommend it for Speedy Deletion. Stevo D 03:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe the title of the article should be renamed to the South African farm attacks. My reasons are as follows:
All in all the current title is contradictary and should be changed. I'll give it a week for comments, and if there are no major objections will move it then. Zunaid 10:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "moord" in Afrikaans used for both "killing" and "murder"? Or are there separate words for the two? If not then we should use the English term "killing" as "murder" has a legal aspect. I understand your argument about murder/manslaughter, but that's not the point I was trying to make (I could just as easily have used "genocide", which has a legal definition in iternational law). The point is, if I kill someone then you can categorically state that I have killed them. But to say that I have murdered them you have to prove in a court of law that the crime of murder has been committed (according to the legal definition of murder, and the usual "beyond reasonable doubt" arguments etc.) WHICH IS WHY newspapers will ALWAYS refer to "the accused" (as in "accused of murder"), even when they can freely report on the person having killed someone. I can be arrested on a charge of murder, but until I am found guilty, I am a killer, not a murderer.
It's the same with stealing. Stealing is an ACT (like killing), but the CRIME is theft/robbery/fraud (murder/manslaughter/culpable homicide/genocide). I hope you see the point I'm trying to make. It's not about the translation from Afrikaans, its about the meaning of the words used. If you want to stick with murder as the English term, then the article will be restricted to those cases which were successfully prosecuted, which is a MUCH smaller subset. It would also add the problem of confirming the numbers used in the article, we'd have to find a reliable reference for the number of successful prosecutions, e.g. from a newspaper article. Zunaid 14:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll agree to disagree then. I think Wizzy however makes a good point about neutrality. Anyway since this is disputed, I think we should contact more editors to get a better consensus. Please message other previous editors of this article to give their opinions. I've started to flesh out a proposed Straw Poll section (please edit as necessary), we can activate it once more editors have joined the debate (maybe next week?). Zunaid 08:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Just to add my $0.02: I think "South African farm attacks" is the best name for this article:
The issue is that people are being attacked on South African farms. The name should reflect that. -- Slashme 09:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Please ONLY SIGN under the proposed name you prefer; any ongoing discussion should take place in the section above. This poll will close on Monday, 9 October 2006.
Change name to "South African farm attacks"
Change name to "South African farm murders"
Change name to "Violence in rural South Africa" or something similar
I take it there is a good consensus to move the article. Will do so now. Zunaid 11:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
After the page move I discovered a slew of redirect pages with inappropriate and POV titles. I've nominated all of them for deletion (it can be found here). In addition, WikiWizzy's arguments about POV, echoed by FayssalF's arguments about WP:NPOV and WP:WTA above prompted me to nominate the titles using the word "murder" as well, as they can be construed as implying a viewpoint. Zunaid 14:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I live in South Africa, and we don't talk about "farm attacks", we talk about "farm murders"... Shouldn't the title be changed to farm murders? Farm attacks suggest that people aren't always murdered, but that wouldn't be under this topic then, so I suggest the title change. -- Adriaan90 12:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Aggressive? Please! He told me to "Read the fucking archives"! I don't understand why you could say I am aggressive when yet he cursed at me. -- Adriaan90 19:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
But I can't tell you how many People try to equate the word "murder" with "genocide", which both of those terms, (except the former in certain rare cases) are invalid. Wikipedia attempts to take a neutral tone with every article, therefore, when not everyone gets killed, it's not murder, and it's not genocide, because that would imply killing over race, politics, etc. So then the name is valid and stays.
And besides, what are we going to do next? say how taxicab, banker, liquor store owner, [put high risk occupation here_________] are murdered in droves, targeted exclusively genocide, etc.? The reason for the farmer attacks are, that South African farmers be, they white or black or coloured, are richer than the average joe both through land and economic control, and in a country where wages are comparatively low, with such economic disparities comes certain responsibilities (and risks) Stevo D 00:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It's a simple case of Wikipedia requiring as neutral terms to be used as possible. This has been mentioned by Wikiwizzy and others above. The term "murder" implies a POV, not-to-mention the fact that it has a legal connotation, whereas "attacks" is more neutral. Google searches for both the "attacks" and "murders" variations of the title bring up 4 pages each, so there does not seem to be a clear preference either way. We've had this out in the above section and re-opening this question isn't going to achieve much in the end. Zunaid 08:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
South African farm attacks were the subject of a research paper at my high school, and the article was woefully inadequate. This is a VERY contentious issue in the country, with numerous groups alleging genocide against white farmers while others contend it is part of a wider crime problem in which race is irrelevant. The role of race and whether it plays a part or not is a HUGE part of this problem and subject of frequent debate thus I was suprised to see the race minimized in the article. There have been numerous claims of bias above and most sources present fell into the liberal end of the spectrum, thus I have remedied this problem through the introduction of high-quality RS conservative commentators, such as National Review. Also, general cleanup. SweetSpicySour ( talk) 12:44, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Following from these discussions regarding POV on this subject I would like to propose the creation of a section that covers that very dimention of this issue. Namely how divisive this issue is in South Africa and how it is viewed by different groups in society. I think it would add a lot to this article and might, if done well, even have the positive side effect of improving NPOV of the article as a whole.-- Discott ( talk) 18:53, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the following:
References
There are several problems with this segment: Firstly, Africa Check said 38.4% of victims of farm attacks were "described as being black, coloured or Asian". That's not "less than" 38.4%, and it's not just owners but any victims. Secondly, Africa Check does not contrast this figure to the total share of black and coloured people among the South African population. That would be a stupid thing to do; if those really were farm owners, they would need to be contrasted to the share of black and coloured people among the South African farm owners, which may be significantly lower than 38.4% and almost certainly is lower than 89%. So the first sentence misleadingly combines disparate sources of data to make a point that none of the sources makes. The second sentence also cherry-picks data, and its source doesn't discuss farm attacks at all, giving no indication how the statistics in that source would relate to the number of farm attack victims. Combining disparate statistics to make broader points about the racial makeup of farm attack victims that are not supported by the sources is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Huon ( talk) 13:42, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
This page should be made a featured article and shown on the front page of the English language version of Wikipedia to help spread the word to the wider public. 2601:8C:4102:1210:651A:285A:DAB:5AD5 ( talk) 12:42, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
I have never been to RSA but according to this news item the official statistics are not reliable: http://www. eutimes.net/2015/03/murders-of-south-african-whites-hidden-by-fraudulent-natural-death-certificates/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.160.157 ( talk) 18:27, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
(I am not an RSA citizen, have never been to RSA, but curious why there are demos just now. These figures make the perception of reality credible.) 71 murders and 369 attacks, source is F. Mbalula, though data was only released on the condition of not publishing http://www.farmingportal.co.za/index.php/farmingnews/breking-news/item/11632-will-it-be-gloves-off-in-anc-showdown-with-south-africa’s-commercial-farmers? http://ewn.co.za/2017/10/29/farm-murders-an-outright-act-of-terror Also a disreputable source http://freewestmedia.com/2017/10/31/afrikaners-come-together-on-blackmonday-to-protest-ongoing-farm-murders/ I first updated the table of the article, which was removed because the last source was neo-nazi. Again, no idea. I just thought if they mention in the article that they got it from a government minister, it would be credible regardless of the web site that published the data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.160.157 ( talk) 11:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I found this on Talk:South Africa, so I pasted it in, as I figured it was relevant:
From that article, it doesn't seem as if farmer murders are to blame. It seems that the supply and demand cycle is more at fault here. The farmers have been feeding the maize to their livestock, and hoarding it for next season, and many of them won't be planting it next year, because the price isn't right. Don't worry, we'll just import it from rich western countries who subsidize their farmers. But that's a whole other debate. -- Slashme 13:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
All of which has nothing to do with farm murders. Maybe after next year's lower maize harvest, the farmers will see the higher prices and start planting maize again. And as for "farmer culls" - Hah. Strange sense of humour.
Have you ever visited South Africa? It's really quite affordable if you don't go to hotels that cater exclusively for tourists. I would advise against the summer, though. Autumn and spring are great seasons here. There really are parts of the country that could very well be described as "paradise". -- Slashme 10:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I find it interesting that for all the talk about racism and "Genocide" against the Afrikaners, the majority of murders (while I don't have statistics, you can tell because of it's most common in places like Soweto and Khaletayisha) are still be commited against black africans! and also, in regard to a comment made from a PAC minister: "You whites will be killed by(sic)flies when Mandela dies." is greatly emphasized to ridiculousness. that party won only 0.02% of the parliament seats, or 3 out of 400! that is the extent of this parties influence. P.S. a number of White south Africans are in parliament on behalf of the ANC. while a number crossed over from the NP and NNP, many of these people have even been reelected in black districts.
And the daily bloodshed among farmers goes on. Nothing stolen. --Jvb – January 4, 2005
Despite the dreaded Affirmative Action, a larger proportion of white graduates manages to find employment after one year of graduation than any other racial group in South Africa. As for the diaspora, a large proportion go overseas to make good money and get valuable experience, then return, due to their liking for ZA conditions. I know a number of these personally. -- Slashme 10:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I wonder how many of the murder claims are hoaxes brought upon us by Trekboers who just want to go back to the days of Apartheid. If there are hoax murders, that ought to be put into the article as well. 205.188.116.196 01:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed a little bit of POV that has crept in around the Govt Committee of Enquiry. Also taken out the inferential leap that claims of genocide are supported by the statistic that over 60% of victims of farm attacks are white. Also added note for the 2004 report from the US State Department, based on figures from AgriSA, that confirms the continued downward trend in the number of farm attacks. Humansdorpie 13:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jvb, the statement that hideous songs allegedly play an important role in genocide aimed at white farmers is a) POV and b) reliant on a number of supporting propositions, none of which is specified or substantiated; I've removed it. I'm also unclear how reference 5 supports the statement that "Some lobby groups claim that the attacks are genocidal in nature. This is supported by the belief that many cases have involved murder with no damage to or theft of property". The reference (a 2004 US State Dept report) quotes the government report that "the perpetrators in the great majority of cases appeared to be common criminals motivated by financial gain". What if we conflate the two existing sentences and put something like, Some lobby groups claim that the attacks are genocidal in nature and believe that many cases have involved murder with no damage to or theft of property.? The next section then presents the government's response to those claims and beliefs. Humansdorpie 15:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi JvB,
I have moved the discussion on hate speech to the section that already deals with "kill the boer" etc, and have removed the links to white supremacist websites, and made the links to reputable media into references. Let's once again see whether we can find a middle ground here. -- Slashme 13:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
It is fucking disgusting. Even babies and old people it is genocide. Fuck the rainbow nation. It’s a fucking joke. Just look at this [20]
Is there a reason for the capitals? If it includes the murders of "young infants", should the title be changed? -- Jeandré, 2006-07-27 t18:41z
Having lived as a farm labourer in South African farms I want to bring out one perspective. During apartheid white farmers (particularly Afrikaaners) hunted and killed black folks for sport. The deep seated hatred against black folks is strongest among the white farmers particularly the Afrikaaners. They have committed all kinds of brutal crimes i.e. rape, murders and more. You can confirm this with court records particularly the Bloemfontein judicial system is filled with these sorts of cases. Since the new government took over in 1994 some of these farm labourers attack white farmers in reaction to this brutal history. White farmers always portray themselves as victims but conceal the fact that the violence they are subjected to is a reactive phenomenon and has its roots in the past. If you think reasonably, it does not make sense for any human being to carry out unprovoked attacks against another human being for no valid reason. Obviously this does not justify the attacks but unfortunately as long as the truth is not told then these things will continue to happen and we will never learn anything from them. He who ignores history is bound to repeat it. I personally watched helplessly my mother being brutalized by an Afrikaaner farmer. He was armed with a gun in broad daylight and he threatened to shoot me if I intervened. Can you imagine being put on hold at gunpoint while your mother is being savagely beaten in front of your eyes? This happened in 1987 on the Doornkop farms near Soweto and Johannesburg. I am still traumatized from this experience. There was a time when I thought of taking an AK-47 to return to that farm to do some retaliatory damage in the hope of being cleansed from this traumatizing experience. Many who do not sublimate their emotional memories end up doing exactly that. What I have outlined is one big piece of the puzzle with respect to attacks against white farmers in South Africa. The black farmers who get killed are usually attacked by white folks. In 1985 as a television journalist for the SABC TV News in the Free State province I covered a story of a black worker who had been killed by his Afrikaaner boss. The farmer had decided to kill him in revenge of his Afrikaaner father that had been killed on the farm by unknown assailants. The farmer told us the unknown assailants had killed his father and farm worker. Other eye witnesses corroborated otherwise. The farmer had decided that his black farm labourer had to pay for this and since this was during apartheid there was no investigation into the crime and anyone who saw this lived in fear and the Afrikaaner went about his life as if nothing had happened. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zulumathabo ( talk • contribs) 02:08, 3 August 2006.
First of all I would like to thank Khoikhoi for his warmest welcome and encouragement about following the rules and showing me the resources. Khokhoi you are doinga phenomenal job and I hold great admiration for you. I will learn from you and others here. Thank you.
Since making a posting regarding the mentality of impunity which prevails among white farmers regarding black farm labourers, I would like to make a few more points of fact. Before I do that let me just address the statement that some traumatized people will attack others because "...have read this article and its talk page". The most influencial thing is what you see in real life as opposed to what they say or want you to see. Experience does not lie. Moreover the purpose here is not to incite hate but to share our experiences.
I already indicated that my mother was brutalized by an Afrikaaner farmer on the Doornkop farms on the outskirts of Soweto and that I bear the scars of this savage attack against a defenseless woman who had provoked no one. This obviously took place in the pervasive atmosphere of impunity. I am reminded by a similar case whereby the white farmer Mr. Mark Scott-Crossley fed his former farm labourer Mr. Chisale into the lions in January of 2004. The BBC News team covered the story which can be sourced here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4492953.stm titled Killers fed farm worker to lions.
It is amazing that this story parallels my story in that Mr. Chisale had returned to this Phalaborwa farm to pick up his belongings in January 2004. My mother Mathabo had also returned to pick up her belongs at the Doornkop farm in April 1985. In both cases the white farmer acted violently and savagely with the result that in the case of Mr. Chisale he actually got eaten alive by the lions. In my case my mother was beaten and brutalized in front of me and I was kept at bay and helpless by the gun totting farmer.
Moreover my mother was not even properly dressed because I was waiting outside for her while she dressed up inside. The farmer just burst into the room where she was dressing and started assaulting her. All her under clothes were scattered on the ground and I went about picking them up one by one while she absorbed vicious blows from the bellicose farmer. I heard my mother cry aloud for her own mother who was not there. The apartheid system of justice was not there to help her. The following excerpt is a poetic record of that barbaric and sexist attack:
“that Doornkop farmer that feudal sexist Afrikaaner I remember him near Johannesburg He waged an undeclared war He emptied his vials of hate upon her, kicking her hard in daylight taking her life apart” It Was a Victim’s Fault from A Goodbye To My Little Troubles Copyright by Vusi Moloi © 1979 – 2004.
I am reminded of a journalist asking the Zimbabwean newly appointed Minister of Ocean Affairs in 1980 about how come Zimbabwe had a Minister of Ocean Affairs when there was no sea in Zimbabwe and he replied “it is just like apartheid South Africa. There is a Minister of Justice there but there is no justice.”
In a two-year study headed by the South African Human Rights Commission Ms. Charlotte McClain-Nhlapo whom I had a privilege of meeting in North America it was found that a culture of violence and impunity of violent acts against black farm labourers were rife. This is a study released in 2004 having been commissioned by Mr. Mandela. The Commissioner was appointed by Mr. Mandela. The BBC News reported on this report under the title South Africa's violent farms and it can be sourced here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3202871.stm using the web.
To put things in perspective the attacks against the farmers are not justified and I am not here to justify those acts of violence. No human being should attack another. If we are civilized as we would like to think we are then we should have the sophistication of solving the most difficult problems through logic. Racial hate diminishes the well-being of the victim as well as the racist.
I still find it incredible that despite the brutal apartheid experience that I have suffered I bear neither grudge no hate against Caucasians. In fact one of the greatest human beings that I worship the ground he walks on is Mr. Van Zyl Slabbert a hardcore Afrikaaner. He is the greatest human being and a very handsome guy too. He combines both brainpower and natural physical beauty and this is a rare combination. Moreover he is a very sweet human being. We are all blessed to have someone like him. There are many Afrikaaners in the same way including the great Afrikaaner woman legend Bettie du Toit. I have friends whom I love deeply who are Afrikaaners. It is not about hate but about human beings respecting each other and accepting each other for who they are. It is also imperative that victims of apartheid are able to get over their experience and rebuild the country. I hope that this humble contribution will cast some new light into the topic at hand. Zulumathabo 04:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This one needs an answer. I am a white Afrikaans farmer. (female) I want to state to "haviglived as a farm labourer" that whoever he is, he is a lyer. I do not know of ANY white farmer killing any of his labourors. I grew up in a situation where our labourors were deemed "children" of my grandfather and my father, my father was even asked to clear up family fights among the labourers. Even though I am very happy that we are now all free of apartheid (it was a weight on our shoulders, for more than one reason) I seen that this talk page is visited by extremists on both sides. Lets face the facts: - it is true that crime in South Africa is very, very high. I have had a very close family member, an oly lady, that was brutally murdered. It is also true that there are a very high number of farm murders. This is common knowlege, it is a problem here in South Africa. The reasons for that, if believe, as with all crime in South Africa, is that rule of law is not upheld and that it is a danger to our society. To come back to the statements of "farm labourer". It is a case of believing what one wants. If one really want to believe this person, little can be done about it. (except for visiting South Africa and South African farms). Most (not all, every society has it's baddies) Afrikaans farmers are very devoted Christians, With Christian values, including that of love and respect. The depiction of me and my people as above is nothing but part of an attack on us. The article on farm murders was written, in my opinion, very objectively. The question is not if they occur, but why. That is not an easy one to answer, and I believe that the farm murders are also not a single case - there are a number of reasons, including common crime (by criminals, no use putting it on the shoulders of all black people, the murders are committed by the outcasts of society, who are getting more. That is the worrysome part. Too many children are growing up without familiy values, without parents; as a result of aids. I have heard statistics, that we have close to two million orphans of various ages. ) Some are racial attacks and other because of personal grievances - people get away with crime too easily... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.54.202.66 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 1 October 2006.
I am sorry, but this article was either originally written by an insane member of the Afrikanerweerstandsbeweging or someone who is extremely sympathetic to Afrikaner "Holocaust" Conspiracy Theories. Some controversial sentences don't even have sources (For Example "An orchestrated political terror campaign intended to drive white farmers off the land". This was listed as one of the reasons why farmers are getting killed. who's writing this shit? Stevo D 01:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
where are the credible sources? wasn't there a wikipedia rule about not using foreign language websites as sources for English Wikipedia Articles? Also, who ever written this article didn't know ALOT of black farmers were murdered too)
and those that do often lead to completely biased sources (For Example, Stop Boer Genocide is a site created by those looking for a Boer Staat). This article is complete and utter crap. I recommend it for Speedy Deletion. Stevo D 03:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe the title of the article should be renamed to the South African farm attacks. My reasons are as follows:
All in all the current title is contradictary and should be changed. I'll give it a week for comments, and if there are no major objections will move it then. Zunaid 10:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "moord" in Afrikaans used for both "killing" and "murder"? Or are there separate words for the two? If not then we should use the English term "killing" as "murder" has a legal aspect. I understand your argument about murder/manslaughter, but that's not the point I was trying to make (I could just as easily have used "genocide", which has a legal definition in iternational law). The point is, if I kill someone then you can categorically state that I have killed them. But to say that I have murdered them you have to prove in a court of law that the crime of murder has been committed (according to the legal definition of murder, and the usual "beyond reasonable doubt" arguments etc.) WHICH IS WHY newspapers will ALWAYS refer to "the accused" (as in "accused of murder"), even when they can freely report on the person having killed someone. I can be arrested on a charge of murder, but until I am found guilty, I am a killer, not a murderer.
It's the same with stealing. Stealing is an ACT (like killing), but the CRIME is theft/robbery/fraud (murder/manslaughter/culpable homicide/genocide). I hope you see the point I'm trying to make. It's not about the translation from Afrikaans, its about the meaning of the words used. If you want to stick with murder as the English term, then the article will be restricted to those cases which were successfully prosecuted, which is a MUCH smaller subset. It would also add the problem of confirming the numbers used in the article, we'd have to find a reliable reference for the number of successful prosecutions, e.g. from a newspaper article. Zunaid 14:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll agree to disagree then. I think Wizzy however makes a good point about neutrality. Anyway since this is disputed, I think we should contact more editors to get a better consensus. Please message other previous editors of this article to give their opinions. I've started to flesh out a proposed Straw Poll section (please edit as necessary), we can activate it once more editors have joined the debate (maybe next week?). Zunaid 08:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Just to add my $0.02: I think "South African farm attacks" is the best name for this article:
The issue is that people are being attacked on South African farms. The name should reflect that. -- Slashme 09:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Please ONLY SIGN under the proposed name you prefer; any ongoing discussion should take place in the section above. This poll will close on Monday, 9 October 2006.
Change name to "South African farm attacks"
Change name to "South African farm murders"
Change name to "Violence in rural South Africa" or something similar
I take it there is a good consensus to move the article. Will do so now. Zunaid 11:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
After the page move I discovered a slew of redirect pages with inappropriate and POV titles. I've nominated all of them for deletion (it can be found here). In addition, WikiWizzy's arguments about POV, echoed by FayssalF's arguments about WP:NPOV and WP:WTA above prompted me to nominate the titles using the word "murder" as well, as they can be construed as implying a viewpoint. Zunaid 14:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I live in South Africa, and we don't talk about "farm attacks", we talk about "farm murders"... Shouldn't the title be changed to farm murders? Farm attacks suggest that people aren't always murdered, but that wouldn't be under this topic then, so I suggest the title change. -- Adriaan90 12:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Aggressive? Please! He told me to "Read the fucking archives"! I don't understand why you could say I am aggressive when yet he cursed at me. -- Adriaan90 19:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
But I can't tell you how many People try to equate the word "murder" with "genocide", which both of those terms, (except the former in certain rare cases) are invalid. Wikipedia attempts to take a neutral tone with every article, therefore, when not everyone gets killed, it's not murder, and it's not genocide, because that would imply killing over race, politics, etc. So then the name is valid and stays.
And besides, what are we going to do next? say how taxicab, banker, liquor store owner, [put high risk occupation here_________] are murdered in droves, targeted exclusively genocide, etc.? The reason for the farmer attacks are, that South African farmers be, they white or black or coloured, are richer than the average joe both through land and economic control, and in a country where wages are comparatively low, with such economic disparities comes certain responsibilities (and risks) Stevo D 00:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It's a simple case of Wikipedia requiring as neutral terms to be used as possible. This has been mentioned by Wikiwizzy and others above. The term "murder" implies a POV, not-to-mention the fact that it has a legal connotation, whereas "attacks" is more neutral. Google searches for both the "attacks" and "murders" variations of the title bring up 4 pages each, so there does not seem to be a clear preference either way. We've had this out in the above section and re-opening this question isn't going to achieve much in the end. Zunaid 08:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
South African farm attacks were the subject of a research paper at my high school, and the article was woefully inadequate. This is a VERY contentious issue in the country, with numerous groups alleging genocide against white farmers while others contend it is part of a wider crime problem in which race is irrelevant. The role of race and whether it plays a part or not is a HUGE part of this problem and subject of frequent debate thus I was suprised to see the race minimized in the article. There have been numerous claims of bias above and most sources present fell into the liberal end of the spectrum, thus I have remedied this problem through the introduction of high-quality RS conservative commentators, such as National Review. Also, general cleanup. SweetSpicySour ( talk) 12:44, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Following from these discussions regarding POV on this subject I would like to propose the creation of a section that covers that very dimention of this issue. Namely how divisive this issue is in South Africa and how it is viewed by different groups in society. I think it would add a lot to this article and might, if done well, even have the positive side effect of improving NPOV of the article as a whole.-- Discott ( talk) 18:53, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the following:
References
There are several problems with this segment: Firstly, Africa Check said 38.4% of victims of farm attacks were "described as being black, coloured or Asian". That's not "less than" 38.4%, and it's not just owners but any victims. Secondly, Africa Check does not contrast this figure to the total share of black and coloured people among the South African population. That would be a stupid thing to do; if those really were farm owners, they would need to be contrasted to the share of black and coloured people among the South African farm owners, which may be significantly lower than 38.4% and almost certainly is lower than 89%. So the first sentence misleadingly combines disparate sources of data to make a point that none of the sources makes. The second sentence also cherry-picks data, and its source doesn't discuss farm attacks at all, giving no indication how the statistics in that source would relate to the number of farm attack victims. Combining disparate statistics to make broader points about the racial makeup of farm attack victims that are not supported by the sources is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Huon ( talk) 13:42, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
This page should be made a featured article and shown on the front page of the English language version of Wikipedia to help spread the word to the wider public. 2601:8C:4102:1210:651A:285A:DAB:5AD5 ( talk) 12:42, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
I have never been to RSA but according to this news item the official statistics are not reliable: http://www. eutimes.net/2015/03/murders-of-south-african-whites-hidden-by-fraudulent-natural-death-certificates/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.160.157 ( talk) 18:27, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
(I am not an RSA citizen, have never been to RSA, but curious why there are demos just now. These figures make the perception of reality credible.) 71 murders and 369 attacks, source is F. Mbalula, though data was only released on the condition of not publishing http://www.farmingportal.co.za/index.php/farmingnews/breking-news/item/11632-will-it-be-gloves-off-in-anc-showdown-with-south-africa’s-commercial-farmers? http://ewn.co.za/2017/10/29/farm-murders-an-outright-act-of-terror Also a disreputable source http://freewestmedia.com/2017/10/31/afrikaners-come-together-on-blackmonday-to-protest-ongoing-farm-murders/ I first updated the table of the article, which was removed because the last source was neo-nazi. Again, no idea. I just thought if they mention in the article that they got it from a government minister, it would be credible regardless of the web site that published the data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.160.157 ( talk) 11:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)