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I think the list is bordering on being excessive. Nevertheless, I added a couple of links to articles about the legislative treatment of Maori within NZ. They are granted certain rights and privileges not given to other New Zealanders. The simplest example of this is separate Maori seats in parliament but similar legislated apartness exists in society. Sound familiar? Here is the opening sentence to the Apartheid article: "Apartheid (/əˈpɑːrt(h)aɪt/, especially South African English: /əˈpɑːrt(h)eɪt/, Afrikaans: [aˈpartɦɛit]; transl. "separateness", lit. "aparthood") was a system of institutionalised racial segregation that existed in South Africa and South West Africa (now Namibia) from 1948 to the early 1990s" This is a quote from a source about the Maori seats I will shortly add to my "See also" link: "Separate representation has been indicated as a kind of political limbo, both irrational and reactionary to the point of apartheid. In the words of one foreign correspondent: 'The parallels between New Zealand and South Africa are ominous'. MOS:SEEALSO says: 'A "See also" section is a useful way to organize internal links to related or comparable articles and build the web.' Need I go on? User Turnagra, an active promoter of the Maori Renaissance has chosen, quite adamantly, to remove my additions as irrelevant with no connection to apartheid, and s/he has invited me to come here instead. Is racial separation policy in NZ worthy of including in the See also section? I was also going to add the post independence constitutions of Fiji, but I will hold off on that for a while. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 10:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
But others claim a more positive attitude towards the existence of Maori representation. Politicians, for example, are anxious to endorse retention of the status quo, while Maori leaders of various party persuasions perceive guaranteed representation as a vital component of their cultural heritage, and defend the system as indispensable to Maori political aspirations.
granted certain rights and privilegesthrough having electorates, you display a lack of knowledge how the electorates came about in the first instance. Schwede 66 21:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Logically, the ethnic groups to compare are black SAs and non-Maori NZers, not, as I think you are taking it, as blacks (equals) Maori and whites (equals) non-Maori? You clearly have a warped interpretation of race relations in New Zealand and so far have only been able to produce a source from the 1980s to back up your outrageous claims, as if race relations in NZ have not progressed in forty years. This has nothing to do with what "my view" is (since I know you think I'm a government agent, or something) but rather that you're making a massive, politically loaded statement, one which frankly doesn't hold any water. Turnagra ( talk) 09:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
You should know better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roger 8 Roger ( talk • contribs) 09:25, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
@Turnagra. Yet again, you are avoiding the issue. This is NOT about race relations, it is about legislation that separates people based on their ethnicity. You can stomp and shout as much as you like but until you address that point this discussion will go nowhere. You earlier tried to dismiss the source I gave. The point of the source is that a RSS, the publication, confirms that my view of one possible interpretation of the Maori seats is also held by others. That makes the source reliable for that purpose. The author does not have to say whether that interpretation is correct or not to be added to the See also section. @Greenman, the source is open to view in full online here Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 10:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Keeping this discussion separate from the above, because it's more general - the whole "See also" section is way way way too long.
Firstly there's a random selection of articles about people/places/events actually connected to apartheid - e.g. Belhar Confession, JBM Hertzog, South African potato boycott. Why link Hertzog but not any of the other Nationalist PMs? Of all the events of apartheid, why the potato boycott? These articles about specific connected topics should be linked in the article proper if at all.
Then, secondly, all sorts of links to articles dealing with situations with various examples of racial segregation or discrimination. The "Maori electorates" discussed above is just one of these but others like Forced settlements in the Soviet Union, Millet (Ottoman Empire) are also dubiously related at best. Choosing which examples are "sufficiently similar" to apartheid will always be controversial as we see above.
Consequently my suggestion is that we limit the whole "See also" section. I would remove those articles that are specific apartheid events/places/people (which should be linked from the main article or from articles linked from the main article). I would also remove all other links included as examples of racial discrimination in other countries - these are covered by linking to Racial segregation and Racism by country, where they appropriate context can be included for each situation, rather than a context-less see-also link.
I would suggest, provisionally, that the remaining list of links would be:
htonl ( talk) 10:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
As we seem to have a consensus, I have made this change to the article. - htonl ( talk) 11:17, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Why is this page not titled: Apartheid in South Africa? The title 'Apartheid' would mean 'the concept of Apartheid' since it is non specific. Just as the page for 'Colonization' is not specific to colonization in any country Truth-proven ( talk) 13:43, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
A user added a "country" infobox to this article recently. I have reverted it based on WP:BRD so it can be discussed here. Zaian ( talk) 06:38, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Apartheid be
renamed and moved to
South Africa and apartheid.
result: Move logs:
source title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Apartheid article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
8,
9Auto-archiving period: 180 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is written in South African English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about apartheid. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about apartheid at the Reference desk. |
![]() | Apartheid was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
I think the list is bordering on being excessive. Nevertheless, I added a couple of links to articles about the legislative treatment of Maori within NZ. They are granted certain rights and privileges not given to other New Zealanders. The simplest example of this is separate Maori seats in parliament but similar legislated apartness exists in society. Sound familiar? Here is the opening sentence to the Apartheid article: "Apartheid (/əˈpɑːrt(h)aɪt/, especially South African English: /əˈpɑːrt(h)eɪt/, Afrikaans: [aˈpartɦɛit]; transl. "separateness", lit. "aparthood") was a system of institutionalised racial segregation that existed in South Africa and South West Africa (now Namibia) from 1948 to the early 1990s" This is a quote from a source about the Maori seats I will shortly add to my "See also" link: "Separate representation has been indicated as a kind of political limbo, both irrational and reactionary to the point of apartheid. In the words of one foreign correspondent: 'The parallels between New Zealand and South Africa are ominous'. MOS:SEEALSO says: 'A "See also" section is a useful way to organize internal links to related or comparable articles and build the web.' Need I go on? User Turnagra, an active promoter of the Maori Renaissance has chosen, quite adamantly, to remove my additions as irrelevant with no connection to apartheid, and s/he has invited me to come here instead. Is racial separation policy in NZ worthy of including in the See also section? I was also going to add the post independence constitutions of Fiji, but I will hold off on that for a while. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 10:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
But others claim a more positive attitude towards the existence of Maori representation. Politicians, for example, are anxious to endorse retention of the status quo, while Maori leaders of various party persuasions perceive guaranteed representation as a vital component of their cultural heritage, and defend the system as indispensable to Maori political aspirations.
granted certain rights and privilegesthrough having electorates, you display a lack of knowledge how the electorates came about in the first instance. Schwede 66 21:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Logically, the ethnic groups to compare are black SAs and non-Maori NZers, not, as I think you are taking it, as blacks (equals) Maori and whites (equals) non-Maori? You clearly have a warped interpretation of race relations in New Zealand and so far have only been able to produce a source from the 1980s to back up your outrageous claims, as if race relations in NZ have not progressed in forty years. This has nothing to do with what "my view" is (since I know you think I'm a government agent, or something) but rather that you're making a massive, politically loaded statement, one which frankly doesn't hold any water. Turnagra ( talk) 09:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
You should know better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roger 8 Roger ( talk • contribs) 09:25, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
@Turnagra. Yet again, you are avoiding the issue. This is NOT about race relations, it is about legislation that separates people based on their ethnicity. You can stomp and shout as much as you like but until you address that point this discussion will go nowhere. You earlier tried to dismiss the source I gave. The point of the source is that a RSS, the publication, confirms that my view of one possible interpretation of the Maori seats is also held by others. That makes the source reliable for that purpose. The author does not have to say whether that interpretation is correct or not to be added to the See also section. @Greenman, the source is open to view in full online here Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 10:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Keeping this discussion separate from the above, because it's more general - the whole "See also" section is way way way too long.
Firstly there's a random selection of articles about people/places/events actually connected to apartheid - e.g. Belhar Confession, JBM Hertzog, South African potato boycott. Why link Hertzog but not any of the other Nationalist PMs? Of all the events of apartheid, why the potato boycott? These articles about specific connected topics should be linked in the article proper if at all.
Then, secondly, all sorts of links to articles dealing with situations with various examples of racial segregation or discrimination. The "Maori electorates" discussed above is just one of these but others like Forced settlements in the Soviet Union, Millet (Ottoman Empire) are also dubiously related at best. Choosing which examples are "sufficiently similar" to apartheid will always be controversial as we see above.
Consequently my suggestion is that we limit the whole "See also" section. I would remove those articles that are specific apartheid events/places/people (which should be linked from the main article or from articles linked from the main article). I would also remove all other links included as examples of racial discrimination in other countries - these are covered by linking to Racial segregation and Racism by country, where they appropriate context can be included for each situation, rather than a context-less see-also link.
I would suggest, provisionally, that the remaining list of links would be:
htonl ( talk) 10:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
As we seem to have a consensus, I have made this change to the article. - htonl ( talk) 11:17, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Why is this page not titled: Apartheid in South Africa? The title 'Apartheid' would mean 'the concept of Apartheid' since it is non specific. Just as the page for 'Colonization' is not specific to colonization in any country Truth-proven ( talk) 13:43, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
A user added a "country" infobox to this article recently. I have reverted it based on WP:BRD so it can be discussed here. Zaian ( talk) 06:38, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Apartheid be
renamed and moved to
South Africa and apartheid.
result: Move logs:
source title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
References