This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I made this image to show graphically how to make and maintain firm sourdough, based on the recipe found on Cookbook: Sourdough Starter. -- Nadiaeagle ( talk) 23:39, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I lived in the S.F. Bay Area all my life, but I just moved to Illinois, and no one sells sourdough bread. This is killing me. Why is this? I once heard that it's impossible to make sourdough bread in the Midwest. Is that true? --JM
Is this original work?
It passes the Google test - it also looks like the legit recipe. -- mav
Cite for ancient sourdough from
http://www.sourdo.com/book.htm
"the organisms of sourdough that produced man's bread for 5,000 years."
--Dr.Ed Wood
Cite for wheat in ancient Egypt from http://teaching.ucdavis.edu/nut120a/0032.htm
"G. Regarding cereals-grains
1. Wheat and barley were the cereals used most commonly. Indeed, during the Greek and Roman period of Egyptian history, Egypt was the grain producing breadbasket of the ancient Mediterranean. Even today, one may travel westward from Alexandria along the coast towards Libya, and in springtime, see the hundreds of ancient mounds that represent ruined villages where cultivators were housed; the irrigation system, cisterns are still in place and today, some of these are used by settled Bedouins. ' Darrell
I had a terrible time finding a definition for sourdough – the stuff that is used as an alternative to yeast – in my big dictionary at home, and had little luck with several online dictionaries. All gave a definition so superficial " sour dough used as a leavening agent" that it told me nothing useful. Your definiton was wonderfully complete and so interesting to read that I learned a good deal more than the basics of sourdough biology, which was my original query. Many thanks to all who contribute to Wikipedia.
Jay Bryan
Montreal
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
64.254.253.134 (
talk •
contribs) 22:56, 21 March 2004 (UTC)
I concur! The contributors to this page are doing a fantastic job. I've been baking sourdough for about 4 years and I figured I'd read a ton of garbage here but I think you folks did a splendid job! seaniz ( talk) 10:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Does this statement As a result, many sourdough bread varieties tend to be relatively resistant to spoilage and mold. refer to the culture or the finished bread? pstudier 02:37, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I remember reading, and it conforms to my exerience, that the longer it takes to make the bread (in development of the dough and in baking) the longer the bread will retain it's freshness.
A stable starter is somewhat resistant to other organisms taking over. Also the bread tends to have a longer shelf life.
The preservation comment should apply to both the starter and the bread. According to Dr. Ed Wood sourdough's first line of defense is the acidity of the starter and the dough. Most micro-organisms have trouble tolerating the acidity produced by the bacteria. Also, as of the time Dr. Wood's book "World Sourdoughs From Antiquity" was published 50 different agents with anti-bacterial properties created by the bacteria had been discovered in sourdough starter. Much of the protection carries over to the bread. In our small bakery we did some informal aging tests. We put wrapped and dated bread on the shelf. Typically it was at least 21 days before our sourdough breads developed any mold. 14 days for breads made with poolish or biga. And only 7 for straght process yeasted breads. Commercial breads tend to stay fresh because of the addition of stabilizers and preservatives. Adding oils will add a few days freshness, but a well made bread will be enjoyable for at least a week. Bread has two enemies, mold and staling. The conditions that favor one will protect against the other. When I baked on the Gulf Coast of Texas, where the humidity was in excess of 80%, bread molded very quickly. In the dry high mountains of Colorado, where 38% humidity is considered a wet day, bread takes a long time to mold, but will stale quickly. Mavery81230 14:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been criticism that this picture is "bad" and "blurry": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sour_dough_loaves02.jpg
The loaves are in perfect focus and the zoom blur is only for artistic effect. Perhaps the original uploader could upload a non-blurred image? Dav2008 18:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't even notice the blur until I read this page. I think it's fine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.156.35 ( talk • contribs)
It clearly shows Sourdough's amazing ability to arrive on shelves in 70 mph bursts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.215.128.199 ( talk • contribs)
This photo looks like it is taken at a Bakers Delight franchise. Their sour dough doesn't really have the proper (or should I say as rich) taste that sour dough bread usually has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.137.38.93 ( talk • contribs)
Alrighty, I talked to the photographer ( Fir0002) and he uploaded a non-zoomy version of the image, which I have added back into the article. As far as whether these loaves are or are not sourdough, I didn't see them being made, so I have no comment. The image looks very good, and hopefully this will reduce our vandalism problems. — Wwagner 14:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why everyone is so angry about that caption. I got a good chuckle out of it. "But Sourdough cannot fly onto the shelves!! It is an inanimate object!!" Give me a break, lighten up guy.
can someone explain to me why sourdough has to arrive at 70 mph? Or why it is the caption for this picture?
I recently rearranged the images for the following reasons:
Does this image placement work or does anyone have any other ideas? Dav2008 14:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
A person can be called a "sourdough," meaning an early settler or prospector in Alaska or NW Canada, according to the American Heritage College Dictionary.
Perhaps the term used in this context deserves some discussion, or an entry of its own? -- Skb8721 22:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
This is the first time I've posted to talk pages. I hope I am not doing something wrong in the manner of my posting.
Biga, like poolish, is a technique that was developed after the advent of bakers yeast in the mid to late 1800's.
Bakers left sourdough in droves because yeast was easier to use. However, two problems arose. They had to pay the yeast company every time they made bread (bakers are among the most frugal people around) and the customers were upset about the reduced flavor in the yeasted breads compared to the straight dough process yeasted breads.
The answer to both problems lay in non-sourdough preferments.
There are five major non-sourdough preferments. Autolyse, sponge, old dough, poolish and biga. Right now, I'm interested in biga.
Biga is a mix of flour, water and yeast. It is about 57% hydration and uses about .35% fresh yeast. It is allowed to rise or ferment for 12 to 16 hours before use. The dense preferment builds lots of flavors, and has a characteristic light nutty taste. The long fermentation also allows the yeast to multiply. In the final dough another .17% or so of fresh yeast is added. This compares to about 2% fresh yeast in a straight dough process. There is no deliberate cultivation of lactobacillus bacteria and there is no hold over from day to day which together are hallmarks of the sourdough process.
In short, biga is a sourdough process, and should not be linked to from the sourdough page, at least not with any indication that biga is a sourdough process.
Mavery81230 ( talk) 03:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC) I am a baker with over 30 years of hobbyist experience, lots of reading and 5 years of professional experience. Sadly, I am in the middle of a move so I do not have access to books to act as references for the above. They are all in boxes. If someone has a copy of, "The Taste of Bread" by Professor Raymond Calvel that isn't in a shipping box, I believe most of the content above can be substantiated there.
Mike
Mdwyer
I'm not too sure about the current title -- sourdough and natural leaven aren't divergent enough subjects to really be separate articles, but sourdough is only a subset of the whole subject of natural leaven. The article needs a lot of work anyway -- organizational, etc -- any ideas? Haikupoet ( talk) 02:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
In the sourdough article there is a passing mention that barm (variously defined as actively fermenting beer, the foam off of actively fermenting beer, or the lees under beer) displaced sourdough. Given that sourdough and beer have about the same length of history, the conclusion that barm displaced sourdough in bread making isn't clear to me. My impression is that barm was most common in England and rare elsewhere.
As a professional baker and a hobbyist brewer, I would not want to depend on a brewer to produce barm for me when I needed it. Most commercial bakers bake daily, most small scale brewers do not which could cause problems for the baker.
Anyway, is there a reference on this? Mavery81230 ( talk) 15:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been over two months, and there is still no reference to support the contention that barm displaced sourdough. It is clear that cultured yeast products did largely displace sourdough in the mid to late 1800's, but it is far from clear that barm was widely enough used to claim that it had displaced sourdough st any time. If there is no documentation on this, I suggest that the reference to barm be removed, as well as the link to the middle ages. Barm was not, from my reading, in common use in France, Germany or any country that used lots of rye flour. Sourdough acidifies rye flour making it more workable. Barm does not. Sourdough was common in France until well into the 1900's, and remains in common use today in Germany and other countries where rye is a major grain in breadmaking.
Mavery81230 ( talk) 17:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
It isn't clear to me what the criteria for the selection of external links is. I added links to my own web page, sourdoughhome.com, and they were deleted as "possible linkspam." They were not. I see other hobbyist web sites have been added, notably the rec.food.sourdough FAQ (which is very good), and "Recipe, discussion and pictures of making sourdough bread." So, could someone clarify the criteria used (or point me to an appropriate line), and do either of these links meet those criteria? Mavery81230 ( talk) 17:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Sourdough is used in other countries in significantly greater proportions than in English-speaking countries, notably in Central Europe, where much more rye is used for bread making. There are a number of differences, in particular the use of sourdough with no yeast component--see the German page, for example. I've modified the introduction to be less tied to specific ways of using sourdough, but more needs to be done. For example, in Germany sourdough can also contain Saccharomyces Minor, and some cultures are refined enough that they shouldn't be considered "wild" or "spontaneous". Groogle ( talk) 05:23, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
A new editor Crh10 ( talk) has deleted the Sourdough FAQs website entry in the External Links section of the Sourdough article. The site is a collection of the best postings to the Usenet newsgroup rec.food.sourdough and links to older FAQs. The site is is entirely non-commercial and without advertising. Crh10 ( talk) feels this entry should be deleted because I am the editor of the site.
Would another editor, if they feel the Sourdough FAQ site is worthy of inclusion in the External Links section, please revert Crh10 ( talk)'s deletion. Many thanks, Darrell_Greenwood ( talk) 21:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Extensive experimentation has demonstrated the "sourness" of a batch of bread is manipulated by tweaking many parameters. Other factors controlling the sourness are the particular strain of lactobacillus bacteria, the temperature at which the dough is fermented, the amount of time the dough is fermented and the dominant type of flour used to feed the starter. Long story short, your milage will vary. Johndur ( talk) 17:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)JohnDur
I've just tidied up section 1, which referred to "S. cerieisiea". That's clearly a typo for Saccharomyces cerevisiae: Google finds over 2 million hits for Saccharomyces cerevisiae and no reference whatsoever for S. cerevisiea, so I've fixed it. But what about the reference? If it's only quoted because of the misspelling, it should be removed. I don't have access to the book, so I've left it for the time being. Groogle ( talk) 03:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
“ | Page 370
YEAST The most often reported yeast species in sourdough, regardless of the flour type and fermentation conditions, are Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Barber et ... |
” |
This sentence is currently not cited, and it is my belief that it needs to be cited:
"San Francisco sourdough is a Type I sourdough that has a pH range of 3.8-4.5 and is fermented at 20-30°C; Saccharomyces exiguus leavens the dough, Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and L. pontis predominate a lactic-acid bacterial flora that includes L. fermentum, L. fructivorans, L. brevis, and L. paralimentarius."
That sentence was originally joined to the sentence currently following it using a colon instead of a period. The sentence following it currently reads "In Type II sourdoughs Saccharomyces cerevisiae[5] leavens the dough, L. pontis and L. panis predominate the flora.[6][7]". The use of a period instead of a colon does improve the paragraph's readability, but it also changes [6] & [7]'s logistical nesting, thus separating the first sentence from the citation.
One method to fix this is simply to copy the citation [6] & [7] to the end of the first sentence, which is currently my preferred solution. Another might be to move all the citations to the end of the paragraph, though that then removes all the citations from the specifically relevant text. Does anyone have any thoughts or input? Gzuufy ( talk) 16:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
“ | Sourdough bread is made by using a small amount (20-25 percent) of starter dough (sometimes known as the "mother dough"[1]), which contains the culture, and mixing it with new flour and water.
... Traditionally, a certain amount of sourdough starter (somewhere around 20-25% on average, depending on the water content of the starter) is mixed into the bread dough, and the bread is kneaded and allowed to rise as normal. |
” |
I have an issue with one of the comments in the "History of Sourdough" section:
"...sourdough has become less common as the standard of living has risen; it has been replaced by the faster growing baker's yeast, sometimes supplemented with longer fermentation rests to allow for some bacterial activity to build flavor."
It may be true that sourdough has become less common, and that living standards have increased, but one certainly doesn't imply the other. In fact, if one uses bread quality as a measuring tool for those otherwise arbitrary "living standards", it could be argued that they have significantly decreased in the last 100 years. Could someone please cite an article showing a causal relationship, or I suggest deletion. Or maybe change to something like: "sourdough has become less common as the 20th and 21st centuries have progressed."-- Guid123 ( talk) 12:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
I fully agree. The issue is better described as "as people and culture have shifted to demanding immediate satisfaction, the popularity of this bread has fallen, as it takes a few minutes of planning and some time to leaven"....or some such. The issue has NOTHING to do with income, and everything to with the "mcdonaldiazation" of society. I ought to trademark that term...
Kenfo 0 (
talk) 23:33, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I can't believe no one has pounced on this, as it is necessarily wrong: "Sourdough starter is made with a small amount of old dough saved from a prior batch". This is known as "recursion", wherein you are defining something by using the term in a definition. In other words, one could NEVER have made sourdough, if one had to have sourdough made before (you couldn't make it before, because it hadn't been made yet). It leads to a conundrum.
In reality, there is a way to first make a starter, which is not being described in this sentence. Once one has THAT starter, one can then keep a portion of the new dough to use as starter for the next batch. This is not at all pedantic. I am a first time sourdough maker...according to that sentence, I can't make sourdough because I didn't in the past. Just post how to make the starter, clearly and concisely. Kenfo 0 ( talk) 23:43, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I edited this passage: "Obtaining a satisfactory rise from sourdough, however, is more difficult than with packaged yeast, because the LAB almost always outnumber the yeasts by a factor of between 100:1 and 1000:1, and the acidity of the bacteria inhibits the yeasts' gas production."
It would be more accurate to say that the rise takes longer - it is not necessarily more difficult. As I understand it, it is not the high ratio of LAB to yeast that makes a sourdough rise slowly, but the fact that the wild yeasts in a sourdough are not as active as the cultivated yeast used in large-scale commercial baking. It is misleading to say that the acidity of the bacteria inhibits the yeast's gas production, because in the symbiosis between LAB and yeast in a sourdough, it is the activity of the LAB that facilitates the yeast and hence gas production. Moreover, yeast can tolerate a more acid environment than Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis. Marshall46 ( talk) 10:43, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
RE this diff. I wrote that sentence. Why? Because when studying science reports (not consumer-level oversimplifications), it appeared that different studies conducted at different times by different scientists in different areas found differently named organisms in sourdoughs. However, these apparent differences were sometimes, perhaps often, explained by classification differences, not actual differences in the organisms found. I presume that others who study this subject would be confused by the same differences, unless it is explicitly stated that there are many names given by different scientists at different times for what are essentially the same or related organisms. Gzuufy ( talk) 21:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
I've done a bit of copy editing, but more is needed. Can we improve the article by separating the following sub-topics:
Marshall46 ( talk) 09:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
I have contributed to the section on this, but I would appreciate some help from editors who know more about it than I do. Hammes and Vogel distinguished LAB that were obligately homofermentative, facultatively heterofermentative and obligately heterofermentative. Are they obligate/facultative in relation to their need for/tolerance of oxygen or in relation to the way they metabolise sugars? Marshall46 ( talk) 09:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I did a copy-edit and removed the statement that the age of a bakery's sourdough contributes to the flavour of its bread. It's not the age of the culture that accounts for the flavour, but, as the article says, the method used, the ratio of flour to water, the ratio of new dough to fermented dough, the rest time, air temperature, humidity and elevation, all of which contibute to the microbiology of the sourdough. Marshall46 ( talk) 13:42, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
In a version of the article that existed a few days ago, a sentence read, "In San Francisco sourdough, back-slopping[30] is 40% based upon total dough weight, and may be expressed as a refreshment ratio of old:new dough,[31] or 66⅔ percent." Today the sentence reads as "In San Francisco sourdough, the ratio[9] is 40% based upon total dough weight, or 66.66 percent.[clarification needed]" As the sentence reads today it makes no sense as 40% ≠ 66%. The deleted link to the ratio page seems related to the need for additional clarification. Also, there is no longer a link to the percent page, which says, "Sometimes due to inconsistent usage, it is not always clear from the context what a percentage is relative to." Gzuufy ( talk) 07:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
The starter section reads:
'The bacteria ferment sugars that the yeast cannot metabolise [...] are metabolised by yeast, [...]'
What does that exactly mean ???
eBug ( talk) 18:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
I see this question all over the web but don't have a definitive answer. Anyone? tharsaile ( talk) 13:08, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
User Gzuufy repeatedly reverts contributions of perfectly valid information and replaces it with his own inaccurate information reflecting his incomplete knowledge of the subject. The article contains too much detail in places and is generally poorly written. It is too full of inaccuracies to be considered definitive and has deteriorated into a major-league train wreck. 69.12.176.20 07:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Can't find any sources that say feed starter with potato flakes. Looked at about 20. Can you substantiate or cite where they say to use potato flakes? Thanks. 71.139.163.158 ( talk) 02:54, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Sourdough is becoming more and more popular. I don't know about the US as I haven't been there recently, but virtually all supermarkets in the UK carry sourdough(even if it is often fake) [1], and all artisan bakers. EG "The fall in popularity of the ordinary white sliced pan owes to a growing health-awareness among the public, as well as to the rise in popularity of speciality breads such as ciabattas and sourdough loaves from supermarket bakeries" [2] Sourdough Is a Status Symbol for Serious Bakers " In Sweden, sourdough has become part of modern food culture, birthing the“sourdough hotel” at the Urban Deli in Stockholm. It’s a place for people leave their starters in the knowledge that they’ll be well looked after—like a dog in a kennel—while they’re away from home." - although Dan Lepard notes it's not yet mainstream. Doug Weller talk 12:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Sourdough bread, yes. But sourdough ice cream "takes the sourdough bread "cult" of recent years to its natural conclusion, by using sourdough as an ingredient and flavouring in something beyond just bread. This idea is catching on in the UK, where a cluster of restaurants, bakeries and breweries are spiking everything from chocolate and pasta to croissants and beer with sourdough's fermented notes and robust texture."{ http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/sourdough-has-escaped-the-bakery-and-is-now-found-in-pasta-beer-and-even-ice-cream-10454687.html} Doug Weller talk 12:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I made this image to show graphically how to make and maintain firm sourdough, based on the recipe found on Cookbook: Sourdough Starter. -- Nadiaeagle ( talk) 23:39, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I lived in the S.F. Bay Area all my life, but I just moved to Illinois, and no one sells sourdough bread. This is killing me. Why is this? I once heard that it's impossible to make sourdough bread in the Midwest. Is that true? --JM
Is this original work?
It passes the Google test - it also looks like the legit recipe. -- mav
Cite for ancient sourdough from
http://www.sourdo.com/book.htm
"the organisms of sourdough that produced man's bread for 5,000 years."
--Dr.Ed Wood
Cite for wheat in ancient Egypt from http://teaching.ucdavis.edu/nut120a/0032.htm
"G. Regarding cereals-grains
1. Wheat and barley were the cereals used most commonly. Indeed, during the Greek and Roman period of Egyptian history, Egypt was the grain producing breadbasket of the ancient Mediterranean. Even today, one may travel westward from Alexandria along the coast towards Libya, and in springtime, see the hundreds of ancient mounds that represent ruined villages where cultivators were housed; the irrigation system, cisterns are still in place and today, some of these are used by settled Bedouins. ' Darrell
I had a terrible time finding a definition for sourdough – the stuff that is used as an alternative to yeast – in my big dictionary at home, and had little luck with several online dictionaries. All gave a definition so superficial " sour dough used as a leavening agent" that it told me nothing useful. Your definiton was wonderfully complete and so interesting to read that I learned a good deal more than the basics of sourdough biology, which was my original query. Many thanks to all who contribute to Wikipedia.
Jay Bryan
Montreal
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
64.254.253.134 (
talk •
contribs) 22:56, 21 March 2004 (UTC)
I concur! The contributors to this page are doing a fantastic job. I've been baking sourdough for about 4 years and I figured I'd read a ton of garbage here but I think you folks did a splendid job! seaniz ( talk) 10:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Does this statement As a result, many sourdough bread varieties tend to be relatively resistant to spoilage and mold. refer to the culture or the finished bread? pstudier 02:37, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I remember reading, and it conforms to my exerience, that the longer it takes to make the bread (in development of the dough and in baking) the longer the bread will retain it's freshness.
A stable starter is somewhat resistant to other organisms taking over. Also the bread tends to have a longer shelf life.
The preservation comment should apply to both the starter and the bread. According to Dr. Ed Wood sourdough's first line of defense is the acidity of the starter and the dough. Most micro-organisms have trouble tolerating the acidity produced by the bacteria. Also, as of the time Dr. Wood's book "World Sourdoughs From Antiquity" was published 50 different agents with anti-bacterial properties created by the bacteria had been discovered in sourdough starter. Much of the protection carries over to the bread. In our small bakery we did some informal aging tests. We put wrapped and dated bread on the shelf. Typically it was at least 21 days before our sourdough breads developed any mold. 14 days for breads made with poolish or biga. And only 7 for straght process yeasted breads. Commercial breads tend to stay fresh because of the addition of stabilizers and preservatives. Adding oils will add a few days freshness, but a well made bread will be enjoyable for at least a week. Bread has two enemies, mold and staling. The conditions that favor one will protect against the other. When I baked on the Gulf Coast of Texas, where the humidity was in excess of 80%, bread molded very quickly. In the dry high mountains of Colorado, where 38% humidity is considered a wet day, bread takes a long time to mold, but will stale quickly. Mavery81230 14:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been criticism that this picture is "bad" and "blurry": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sour_dough_loaves02.jpg
The loaves are in perfect focus and the zoom blur is only for artistic effect. Perhaps the original uploader could upload a non-blurred image? Dav2008 18:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't even notice the blur until I read this page. I think it's fine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.156.35 ( talk • contribs)
It clearly shows Sourdough's amazing ability to arrive on shelves in 70 mph bursts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.215.128.199 ( talk • contribs)
This photo looks like it is taken at a Bakers Delight franchise. Their sour dough doesn't really have the proper (or should I say as rich) taste that sour dough bread usually has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.137.38.93 ( talk • contribs)
Alrighty, I talked to the photographer ( Fir0002) and he uploaded a non-zoomy version of the image, which I have added back into the article. As far as whether these loaves are or are not sourdough, I didn't see them being made, so I have no comment. The image looks very good, and hopefully this will reduce our vandalism problems. — Wwagner 14:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why everyone is so angry about that caption. I got a good chuckle out of it. "But Sourdough cannot fly onto the shelves!! It is an inanimate object!!" Give me a break, lighten up guy.
can someone explain to me why sourdough has to arrive at 70 mph? Or why it is the caption for this picture?
I recently rearranged the images for the following reasons:
Does this image placement work or does anyone have any other ideas? Dav2008 14:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
A person can be called a "sourdough," meaning an early settler or prospector in Alaska or NW Canada, according to the American Heritage College Dictionary.
Perhaps the term used in this context deserves some discussion, or an entry of its own? -- Skb8721 22:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
This is the first time I've posted to talk pages. I hope I am not doing something wrong in the manner of my posting.
Biga, like poolish, is a technique that was developed after the advent of bakers yeast in the mid to late 1800's.
Bakers left sourdough in droves because yeast was easier to use. However, two problems arose. They had to pay the yeast company every time they made bread (bakers are among the most frugal people around) and the customers were upset about the reduced flavor in the yeasted breads compared to the straight dough process yeasted breads.
The answer to both problems lay in non-sourdough preferments.
There are five major non-sourdough preferments. Autolyse, sponge, old dough, poolish and biga. Right now, I'm interested in biga.
Biga is a mix of flour, water and yeast. It is about 57% hydration and uses about .35% fresh yeast. It is allowed to rise or ferment for 12 to 16 hours before use. The dense preferment builds lots of flavors, and has a characteristic light nutty taste. The long fermentation also allows the yeast to multiply. In the final dough another .17% or so of fresh yeast is added. This compares to about 2% fresh yeast in a straight dough process. There is no deliberate cultivation of lactobacillus bacteria and there is no hold over from day to day which together are hallmarks of the sourdough process.
In short, biga is a sourdough process, and should not be linked to from the sourdough page, at least not with any indication that biga is a sourdough process.
Mavery81230 ( talk) 03:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC) I am a baker with over 30 years of hobbyist experience, lots of reading and 5 years of professional experience. Sadly, I am in the middle of a move so I do not have access to books to act as references for the above. They are all in boxes. If someone has a copy of, "The Taste of Bread" by Professor Raymond Calvel that isn't in a shipping box, I believe most of the content above can be substantiated there.
Mike
Mdwyer
I'm not too sure about the current title -- sourdough and natural leaven aren't divergent enough subjects to really be separate articles, but sourdough is only a subset of the whole subject of natural leaven. The article needs a lot of work anyway -- organizational, etc -- any ideas? Haikupoet ( talk) 02:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
In the sourdough article there is a passing mention that barm (variously defined as actively fermenting beer, the foam off of actively fermenting beer, or the lees under beer) displaced sourdough. Given that sourdough and beer have about the same length of history, the conclusion that barm displaced sourdough in bread making isn't clear to me. My impression is that barm was most common in England and rare elsewhere.
As a professional baker and a hobbyist brewer, I would not want to depend on a brewer to produce barm for me when I needed it. Most commercial bakers bake daily, most small scale brewers do not which could cause problems for the baker.
Anyway, is there a reference on this? Mavery81230 ( talk) 15:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been over two months, and there is still no reference to support the contention that barm displaced sourdough. It is clear that cultured yeast products did largely displace sourdough in the mid to late 1800's, but it is far from clear that barm was widely enough used to claim that it had displaced sourdough st any time. If there is no documentation on this, I suggest that the reference to barm be removed, as well as the link to the middle ages. Barm was not, from my reading, in common use in France, Germany or any country that used lots of rye flour. Sourdough acidifies rye flour making it more workable. Barm does not. Sourdough was common in France until well into the 1900's, and remains in common use today in Germany and other countries where rye is a major grain in breadmaking.
Mavery81230 ( talk) 17:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
It isn't clear to me what the criteria for the selection of external links is. I added links to my own web page, sourdoughhome.com, and they were deleted as "possible linkspam." They were not. I see other hobbyist web sites have been added, notably the rec.food.sourdough FAQ (which is very good), and "Recipe, discussion and pictures of making sourdough bread." So, could someone clarify the criteria used (or point me to an appropriate line), and do either of these links meet those criteria? Mavery81230 ( talk) 17:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Sourdough is used in other countries in significantly greater proportions than in English-speaking countries, notably in Central Europe, where much more rye is used for bread making. There are a number of differences, in particular the use of sourdough with no yeast component--see the German page, for example. I've modified the introduction to be less tied to specific ways of using sourdough, but more needs to be done. For example, in Germany sourdough can also contain Saccharomyces Minor, and some cultures are refined enough that they shouldn't be considered "wild" or "spontaneous". Groogle ( talk) 05:23, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
A new editor Crh10 ( talk) has deleted the Sourdough FAQs website entry in the External Links section of the Sourdough article. The site is a collection of the best postings to the Usenet newsgroup rec.food.sourdough and links to older FAQs. The site is is entirely non-commercial and without advertising. Crh10 ( talk) feels this entry should be deleted because I am the editor of the site.
Would another editor, if they feel the Sourdough FAQ site is worthy of inclusion in the External Links section, please revert Crh10 ( talk)'s deletion. Many thanks, Darrell_Greenwood ( talk) 21:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Extensive experimentation has demonstrated the "sourness" of a batch of bread is manipulated by tweaking many parameters. Other factors controlling the sourness are the particular strain of lactobacillus bacteria, the temperature at which the dough is fermented, the amount of time the dough is fermented and the dominant type of flour used to feed the starter. Long story short, your milage will vary. Johndur ( talk) 17:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)JohnDur
I've just tidied up section 1, which referred to "S. cerieisiea". That's clearly a typo for Saccharomyces cerevisiae: Google finds over 2 million hits for Saccharomyces cerevisiae and no reference whatsoever for S. cerevisiea, so I've fixed it. But what about the reference? If it's only quoted because of the misspelling, it should be removed. I don't have access to the book, so I've left it for the time being. Groogle ( talk) 03:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
“ | Page 370
YEAST The most often reported yeast species in sourdough, regardless of the flour type and fermentation conditions, are Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Barber et ... |
” |
This sentence is currently not cited, and it is my belief that it needs to be cited:
"San Francisco sourdough is a Type I sourdough that has a pH range of 3.8-4.5 and is fermented at 20-30°C; Saccharomyces exiguus leavens the dough, Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and L. pontis predominate a lactic-acid bacterial flora that includes L. fermentum, L. fructivorans, L. brevis, and L. paralimentarius."
That sentence was originally joined to the sentence currently following it using a colon instead of a period. The sentence following it currently reads "In Type II sourdoughs Saccharomyces cerevisiae[5] leavens the dough, L. pontis and L. panis predominate the flora.[6][7]". The use of a period instead of a colon does improve the paragraph's readability, but it also changes [6] & [7]'s logistical nesting, thus separating the first sentence from the citation.
One method to fix this is simply to copy the citation [6] & [7] to the end of the first sentence, which is currently my preferred solution. Another might be to move all the citations to the end of the paragraph, though that then removes all the citations from the specifically relevant text. Does anyone have any thoughts or input? Gzuufy ( talk) 16:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
“ | Sourdough bread is made by using a small amount (20-25 percent) of starter dough (sometimes known as the "mother dough"[1]), which contains the culture, and mixing it with new flour and water.
... Traditionally, a certain amount of sourdough starter (somewhere around 20-25% on average, depending on the water content of the starter) is mixed into the bread dough, and the bread is kneaded and allowed to rise as normal. |
” |
I have an issue with one of the comments in the "History of Sourdough" section:
"...sourdough has become less common as the standard of living has risen; it has been replaced by the faster growing baker's yeast, sometimes supplemented with longer fermentation rests to allow for some bacterial activity to build flavor."
It may be true that sourdough has become less common, and that living standards have increased, but one certainly doesn't imply the other. In fact, if one uses bread quality as a measuring tool for those otherwise arbitrary "living standards", it could be argued that they have significantly decreased in the last 100 years. Could someone please cite an article showing a causal relationship, or I suggest deletion. Or maybe change to something like: "sourdough has become less common as the 20th and 21st centuries have progressed."-- Guid123 ( talk) 12:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
I fully agree. The issue is better described as "as people and culture have shifted to demanding immediate satisfaction, the popularity of this bread has fallen, as it takes a few minutes of planning and some time to leaven"....or some such. The issue has NOTHING to do with income, and everything to with the "mcdonaldiazation" of society. I ought to trademark that term...
Kenfo 0 (
talk) 23:33, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I can't believe no one has pounced on this, as it is necessarily wrong: "Sourdough starter is made with a small amount of old dough saved from a prior batch". This is known as "recursion", wherein you are defining something by using the term in a definition. In other words, one could NEVER have made sourdough, if one had to have sourdough made before (you couldn't make it before, because it hadn't been made yet). It leads to a conundrum.
In reality, there is a way to first make a starter, which is not being described in this sentence. Once one has THAT starter, one can then keep a portion of the new dough to use as starter for the next batch. This is not at all pedantic. I am a first time sourdough maker...according to that sentence, I can't make sourdough because I didn't in the past. Just post how to make the starter, clearly and concisely. Kenfo 0 ( talk) 23:43, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I edited this passage: "Obtaining a satisfactory rise from sourdough, however, is more difficult than with packaged yeast, because the LAB almost always outnumber the yeasts by a factor of between 100:1 and 1000:1, and the acidity of the bacteria inhibits the yeasts' gas production."
It would be more accurate to say that the rise takes longer - it is not necessarily more difficult. As I understand it, it is not the high ratio of LAB to yeast that makes a sourdough rise slowly, but the fact that the wild yeasts in a sourdough are not as active as the cultivated yeast used in large-scale commercial baking. It is misleading to say that the acidity of the bacteria inhibits the yeast's gas production, because in the symbiosis between LAB and yeast in a sourdough, it is the activity of the LAB that facilitates the yeast and hence gas production. Moreover, yeast can tolerate a more acid environment than Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis. Marshall46 ( talk) 10:43, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
RE this diff. I wrote that sentence. Why? Because when studying science reports (not consumer-level oversimplifications), it appeared that different studies conducted at different times by different scientists in different areas found differently named organisms in sourdoughs. However, these apparent differences were sometimes, perhaps often, explained by classification differences, not actual differences in the organisms found. I presume that others who study this subject would be confused by the same differences, unless it is explicitly stated that there are many names given by different scientists at different times for what are essentially the same or related organisms. Gzuufy ( talk) 21:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
I've done a bit of copy editing, but more is needed. Can we improve the article by separating the following sub-topics:
Marshall46 ( talk) 09:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
I have contributed to the section on this, but I would appreciate some help from editors who know more about it than I do. Hammes and Vogel distinguished LAB that were obligately homofermentative, facultatively heterofermentative and obligately heterofermentative. Are they obligate/facultative in relation to their need for/tolerance of oxygen or in relation to the way they metabolise sugars? Marshall46 ( talk) 09:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I did a copy-edit and removed the statement that the age of a bakery's sourdough contributes to the flavour of its bread. It's not the age of the culture that accounts for the flavour, but, as the article says, the method used, the ratio of flour to water, the ratio of new dough to fermented dough, the rest time, air temperature, humidity and elevation, all of which contibute to the microbiology of the sourdough. Marshall46 ( talk) 13:42, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
In a version of the article that existed a few days ago, a sentence read, "In San Francisco sourdough, back-slopping[30] is 40% based upon total dough weight, and may be expressed as a refreshment ratio of old:new dough,[31] or 66⅔ percent." Today the sentence reads as "In San Francisco sourdough, the ratio[9] is 40% based upon total dough weight, or 66.66 percent.[clarification needed]" As the sentence reads today it makes no sense as 40% ≠ 66%. The deleted link to the ratio page seems related to the need for additional clarification. Also, there is no longer a link to the percent page, which says, "Sometimes due to inconsistent usage, it is not always clear from the context what a percentage is relative to." Gzuufy ( talk) 07:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
The starter section reads:
'The bacteria ferment sugars that the yeast cannot metabolise [...] are metabolised by yeast, [...]'
What does that exactly mean ???
eBug ( talk) 18:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
I see this question all over the web but don't have a definitive answer. Anyone? tharsaile ( talk) 13:08, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
User Gzuufy repeatedly reverts contributions of perfectly valid information and replaces it with his own inaccurate information reflecting his incomplete knowledge of the subject. The article contains too much detail in places and is generally poorly written. It is too full of inaccuracies to be considered definitive and has deteriorated into a major-league train wreck. 69.12.176.20 07:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Can't find any sources that say feed starter with potato flakes. Looked at about 20. Can you substantiate or cite where they say to use potato flakes? Thanks. 71.139.163.158 ( talk) 02:54, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Sourdough is becoming more and more popular. I don't know about the US as I haven't been there recently, but virtually all supermarkets in the UK carry sourdough(even if it is often fake) [1], and all artisan bakers. EG "The fall in popularity of the ordinary white sliced pan owes to a growing health-awareness among the public, as well as to the rise in popularity of speciality breads such as ciabattas and sourdough loaves from supermarket bakeries" [2] Sourdough Is a Status Symbol for Serious Bakers " In Sweden, sourdough has become part of modern food culture, birthing the“sourdough hotel” at the Urban Deli in Stockholm. It’s a place for people leave their starters in the knowledge that they’ll be well looked after—like a dog in a kennel—while they’re away from home." - although Dan Lepard notes it's not yet mainstream. Doug Weller talk 12:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Sourdough bread, yes. But sourdough ice cream "takes the sourdough bread "cult" of recent years to its natural conclusion, by using sourdough as an ingredient and flavouring in something beyond just bread. This idea is catching on in the UK, where a cluster of restaurants, bakeries and breweries are spiking everything from chocolate and pasta to croissants and beer with sourdough's fermented notes and robust texture."{ http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/sourdough-has-escaped-the-bakery-and-is-now-found-in-pasta-beer-and-even-ice-cream-10454687.html} Doug Weller talk 12:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)