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The result of the proposal was no move. Cúchullain t/ c 21:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Sound recording copyright symbol → Phonorecord Symbol – This page conflates two different concepts: the sound recording copyright, and phonorecords. I will rewrite it to reflect the law more accurately, and propose this renaming/move to accompany the rewrite. Mgcsinc ( talk) 06:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
In any case, the proper term for this mark -- and in fact, what distinguishes it from the normal copyright mark -- is that it attaches to phonorecords rather than copies. Hence, P in a circle rather than C. Here's the explanation from a US Copyright Office circular: "The 'C in a circle' notice is used only on 'visually perceptible' copies. Certain kinds of works, such as musical, dramatic, and literary works, may be fixed not in “copies” but by means of sound in an audiorecording. Since audiorecordings such as audiotapes and phonograph disks are 'phonorecords' and not 'copies,' the 'C in a circle' notice is not used to indicate protection of the underlying musical, dramatic, or literary work that is recorded." So, when the notice is affixed to a phonorecord, regardless of the nature of the underlying work, the phonorecord symbol (P in a circle) is used. This article confuses the issues, and hence my attempt to fix it. For more information see Copyright Circular 3: [1] . - Mgcsinc ( talk) 04:42, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
If, as a condition of protecting the producers of phonograms, a Contracting State, under its domestic law, requires compliance with formalities, these shall be considered as fulfilled if all the authorized duplicates of the phonogram distributed to the public or their containers bear a notice consisting of the symbol ℗, accompanied by the year date of the first publication, placed in such manner as to give reasonable notice of claim of protection; and, if the duplicates or their containers do not identify the producer, his successor in title or the exclusive licensee (by carrying his name, trademark or other appropriate designation), the notice shall also include the name of the producer, his successor in title or the exclusive licensee.
--Relisted Mdann52 ( talk) 16:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
This may be in the TL;DR category, but since it still appears to be an issue, it's worth setting this out somewhat exhaustingly and exhaustively.
There is continued confusion by an editor on the the "P" in this symbol, and why that letter is used. It stands for "phonogram," as cited in the article; it does not stand for "phonorecord", a word that did not even exist when the symbol was coined; and the symbol is not a "phonorecord symbol" (although Unicode offers that as an alternative name, along with "published" -- more on that below).
First, the history. The symbol was introduced in 1971, essentially simultaneously in both domestic US law and international treaty.
In the United States, it was added by the Sound Recording Amendment (SRA), Pub. L. No. 92-140, § 3, 85 Stat. 391, 392 (1971). This statute was enacted October 15, 1971, effective February 15, 1972. It amended the 1909 Copyright Act by adding protection for sound recordings, and, what we're interested in here, prescribing a copyright notice for sound recordings, in section 19 of the 1909 Act:
One feature of this statute is that the word phonorecord does not appear anywhere in it. The word phonorecord did not yet exist in U.S. law. What we now call "phonorecords" were called "reproductions of sound recordings." See SRA, § (a).
So, why the "P"? Simultaneously with the drafting of this statute, the United States was working with WIPO on the new treaty, the Convention for the Protection of Producers of Phonograms Against Unauthorized Duplication of Their Phonograms (a/k/a the Geneva Phonograms Convention (GPC)). That treaty provides, in Article 5:
The treaty was completed October 29, 1971, substantially simultaneously with the enactment of the SRA two weeks earlier. As the head of the U.S. copyright office explains, "phonogram" is the legal term used in many English-speaking countries for what the U.S. calls a "sound recording." Obviously, the P in the treaty stands for "phonogram", and the "P" in the U.S. statute is chosen to meet the impending U.S. treaty obligations. But don't take my word for it:
Copyright notices for sound recordings are supposed to contain a capital P in a circle (℗)... The P stands for phonogram.
"℗" stands for "phonogram," an internationally used synonym for "sound recording," which term one should always distinguish from "phonorecord," the term that § 101 uses the physical object in which the sound recording is fixed.
For those of you not familiar with these sources, Nolo Press is a publisher of numerous legal references for the layman; and Craig Joyce is a highly respected copyright professor and the director of the University of Houston's Institute for Intellectual Property & Information Law. The book cited above is a widely used textbook on copyright law.
The term phonorecord was introduced four years after the symbol ℗, when it was included in the Copyright Act of 1976. The House Report that accompanied the 1976 Act, while not using "stands for" language, made very clear that the U.S. adoption of the symbol is based on the treaty's usage:
(Along these lines, it would be interesting to dig up a copy of the House Report that accompanied the SRA to see if it explained the symbol. That report is House Report No. 92-487 (1971), reprinted at 1971 U.S.C.C.A.N. 1567. A copy does not appear to be online, and as an in-house attorney, I no longer have free access to Lexis or Westlaw to grab a copy without billing my employer. I will have to make a note to check this in the USCCAN next time I'm at a large library.)
So it's pretty clear that ℗ refers to phonogram, not to phonorecord. The claim that it stands for phonorecord is contrary to cited reliable sources, and also requires you to believe that the symbol was chosen to stand for a word that was not in existence until 4 years later. Contrary to User:Mgcsinc's position that the reference to "phonogram" is revisionist, it's seems pretty clear that the misunderstanding that it is a reference to "phonorecord," a term that did not exist when the symbol was introduced, is revisionist.
The symbol is generally known as the sound recording copyright symbol:
For more cites, try this google book search: [4]. In contrast, the same search for "phonorecord copyright symbol" finds only one hit: [5] (it actually has two results, but one of the results does not actually contain the term).
This is what makes sense. The symbol is not about the physical thing it's printed on (the "phonorecord"). It is about the work that was once (the requirement was relaxed in 1978, and removed in 1989) required to obtain copyright in the sound recording (phonogram). It no more refers to the physical object than the standard copyright symbol is actually "copy symbol." (For "phonorecord" is to "sound recording" what "copy" is to ordinary copyrighted works; each refers to the physical object, as distinguished from the work that is the subject of the protection.)
With all respect to User:Mgcsinc, I understand, he is not familiar with the term "phonogram," and he is familiar with "phonorecord." But his unfamiliarity is not a basis to change the article.
Now, the Unicode Standard does provide a couple of "alternative names" for the symbol: "published" and "phonorecord sign". These appear to be the Unicode consortium's best guesses on the meaning of the symbol (obviously they are not authoritative, as they contradict one another; at least one is inherently incorrect). Those alternative names are unique to Unicode, but they should be noted in the article, in the portion on Unicode representation. And they are. But Unicode's use of the alternative names does not seem to exist outside the Unicode sphere. And for another thing, Unicode didn't even begin until 1988, and it obviously cannot purport to be the source of a 1971 legal symbol. The Unicode alternative names (both of them) should be mentioned, but ought not to be added to the lede sentence.
TJRC ( talk) 19:35, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
"The symbol was introduced in 1971, essentially simultaneously in both domestic United States law and international treaty."
This isn't exactly correct. The P symbol was appearing on records for at least a decade before that --
194.63.116.72 (
talk)
12:35, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Some source in Google Books show the symbol was around since the mid 50's. JamesFox ( talk) 10:00, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
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The result of the proposal was no move. Cúchullain t/ c 21:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Sound recording copyright symbol → Phonorecord Symbol – This page conflates two different concepts: the sound recording copyright, and phonorecords. I will rewrite it to reflect the law more accurately, and propose this renaming/move to accompany the rewrite. Mgcsinc ( talk) 06:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
In any case, the proper term for this mark -- and in fact, what distinguishes it from the normal copyright mark -- is that it attaches to phonorecords rather than copies. Hence, P in a circle rather than C. Here's the explanation from a US Copyright Office circular: "The 'C in a circle' notice is used only on 'visually perceptible' copies. Certain kinds of works, such as musical, dramatic, and literary works, may be fixed not in “copies” but by means of sound in an audiorecording. Since audiorecordings such as audiotapes and phonograph disks are 'phonorecords' and not 'copies,' the 'C in a circle' notice is not used to indicate protection of the underlying musical, dramatic, or literary work that is recorded." So, when the notice is affixed to a phonorecord, regardless of the nature of the underlying work, the phonorecord symbol (P in a circle) is used. This article confuses the issues, and hence my attempt to fix it. For more information see Copyright Circular 3: [1] . - Mgcsinc ( talk) 04:42, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
If, as a condition of protecting the producers of phonograms, a Contracting State, under its domestic law, requires compliance with formalities, these shall be considered as fulfilled if all the authorized duplicates of the phonogram distributed to the public or their containers bear a notice consisting of the symbol ℗, accompanied by the year date of the first publication, placed in such manner as to give reasonable notice of claim of protection; and, if the duplicates or their containers do not identify the producer, his successor in title or the exclusive licensee (by carrying his name, trademark or other appropriate designation), the notice shall also include the name of the producer, his successor in title or the exclusive licensee.
--Relisted Mdann52 ( talk) 16:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
This may be in the TL;DR category, but since it still appears to be an issue, it's worth setting this out somewhat exhaustingly and exhaustively.
There is continued confusion by an editor on the the "P" in this symbol, and why that letter is used. It stands for "phonogram," as cited in the article; it does not stand for "phonorecord", a word that did not even exist when the symbol was coined; and the symbol is not a "phonorecord symbol" (although Unicode offers that as an alternative name, along with "published" -- more on that below).
First, the history. The symbol was introduced in 1971, essentially simultaneously in both domestic US law and international treaty.
In the United States, it was added by the Sound Recording Amendment (SRA), Pub. L. No. 92-140, § 3, 85 Stat. 391, 392 (1971). This statute was enacted October 15, 1971, effective February 15, 1972. It amended the 1909 Copyright Act by adding protection for sound recordings, and, what we're interested in here, prescribing a copyright notice for sound recordings, in section 19 of the 1909 Act:
One feature of this statute is that the word phonorecord does not appear anywhere in it. The word phonorecord did not yet exist in U.S. law. What we now call "phonorecords" were called "reproductions of sound recordings." See SRA, § (a).
So, why the "P"? Simultaneously with the drafting of this statute, the United States was working with WIPO on the new treaty, the Convention for the Protection of Producers of Phonograms Against Unauthorized Duplication of Their Phonograms (a/k/a the Geneva Phonograms Convention (GPC)). That treaty provides, in Article 5:
The treaty was completed October 29, 1971, substantially simultaneously with the enactment of the SRA two weeks earlier. As the head of the U.S. copyright office explains, "phonogram" is the legal term used in many English-speaking countries for what the U.S. calls a "sound recording." Obviously, the P in the treaty stands for "phonogram", and the "P" in the U.S. statute is chosen to meet the impending U.S. treaty obligations. But don't take my word for it:
Copyright notices for sound recordings are supposed to contain a capital P in a circle (℗)... The P stands for phonogram.
"℗" stands for "phonogram," an internationally used synonym for "sound recording," which term one should always distinguish from "phonorecord," the term that § 101 uses the physical object in which the sound recording is fixed.
For those of you not familiar with these sources, Nolo Press is a publisher of numerous legal references for the layman; and Craig Joyce is a highly respected copyright professor and the director of the University of Houston's Institute for Intellectual Property & Information Law. The book cited above is a widely used textbook on copyright law.
The term phonorecord was introduced four years after the symbol ℗, when it was included in the Copyright Act of 1976. The House Report that accompanied the 1976 Act, while not using "stands for" language, made very clear that the U.S. adoption of the symbol is based on the treaty's usage:
(Along these lines, it would be interesting to dig up a copy of the House Report that accompanied the SRA to see if it explained the symbol. That report is House Report No. 92-487 (1971), reprinted at 1971 U.S.C.C.A.N. 1567. A copy does not appear to be online, and as an in-house attorney, I no longer have free access to Lexis or Westlaw to grab a copy without billing my employer. I will have to make a note to check this in the USCCAN next time I'm at a large library.)
So it's pretty clear that ℗ refers to phonogram, not to phonorecord. The claim that it stands for phonorecord is contrary to cited reliable sources, and also requires you to believe that the symbol was chosen to stand for a word that was not in existence until 4 years later. Contrary to User:Mgcsinc's position that the reference to "phonogram" is revisionist, it's seems pretty clear that the misunderstanding that it is a reference to "phonorecord," a term that did not exist when the symbol was introduced, is revisionist.
The symbol is generally known as the sound recording copyright symbol:
For more cites, try this google book search: [4]. In contrast, the same search for "phonorecord copyright symbol" finds only one hit: [5] (it actually has two results, but one of the results does not actually contain the term).
This is what makes sense. The symbol is not about the physical thing it's printed on (the "phonorecord"). It is about the work that was once (the requirement was relaxed in 1978, and removed in 1989) required to obtain copyright in the sound recording (phonogram). It no more refers to the physical object than the standard copyright symbol is actually "copy symbol." (For "phonorecord" is to "sound recording" what "copy" is to ordinary copyrighted works; each refers to the physical object, as distinguished from the work that is the subject of the protection.)
With all respect to User:Mgcsinc, I understand, he is not familiar with the term "phonogram," and he is familiar with "phonorecord." But his unfamiliarity is not a basis to change the article.
Now, the Unicode Standard does provide a couple of "alternative names" for the symbol: "published" and "phonorecord sign". These appear to be the Unicode consortium's best guesses on the meaning of the symbol (obviously they are not authoritative, as they contradict one another; at least one is inherently incorrect). Those alternative names are unique to Unicode, but they should be noted in the article, in the portion on Unicode representation. And they are. But Unicode's use of the alternative names does not seem to exist outside the Unicode sphere. And for another thing, Unicode didn't even begin until 1988, and it obviously cannot purport to be the source of a 1971 legal symbol. The Unicode alternative names (both of them) should be mentioned, but ought not to be added to the lede sentence.
TJRC ( talk) 19:35, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
"The symbol was introduced in 1971, essentially simultaneously in both domestic United States law and international treaty."
This isn't exactly correct. The P symbol was appearing on records for at least a decade before that --
194.63.116.72 (
talk)
12:35, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Some source in Google Books show the symbol was around since the mid 50's. JamesFox ( talk) 10:00, 6 March 2021 (UTC)