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Untitled
I wonder if the article is claiming too much: can anyone really assert that he would not have had a breakdown if he hadn't pursued the goal of becoming a professional footballer, or that his parents would still be happily married if their had had the same footballing talent as me? The articles cited are not as confident in claiming that as this article currently appears.
Kevin McE (
talk)
21:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)reply
Chronology
There are numerous conflicting/contradictory sources about this person's career:
Goal.com - Enfield Colts at 6, Enfield at 10, trial at Ajax (possibly more permanent given he was there a long time, went to competitions in Denmark with them?), "although Ajax offered him a full-time place at their academy, Pike returned to England to join Leyton Orient", failed move to Chelsea, then played with QPR and then Crystal Palace (trial or permanent? not clear), joined Stevenage, quit at 18
The Guardian (2006) - joined Ajax at 7, later played for Dryburgh Saints in Dundee
The Guardian (2016) - his time in Denmark was while playing for 'East Anglia', spent 2 weeks at Ajax, then played for Leyton Orient, failed transfer to Chelsea, trialled at Crystal Palace, trial at Grimsby, never went to Dundee
WSC - Leyton Orient (signed), Ajax (training), Chelsea (training), later played non-league with Stevenage Borough, Barnet, Enfield, and Waltham Forest.
My view is to follow what Goal.com and Guardian (2016) say for the early career - Enfield Colts at 6, Enfield at 10, trial at Ajax, returned to England to join Leyton Orient, failed move to Chelsea, then trialled with QPR and then Crystal Palace, joined Stevenage, quit at 18.
Then follow WSC for the non-league career - Barnet, Enfield, and Waltham Forest
I think this is fair. However I have a couple of tweaks. The Guardian source states that Pike may not technically have signed with Orient at all, so I'm wary to put that on. If it does go on, the youthyears should only be 1996.(
1) Also his time at Stevenage should be seen as youth, rather than senior in the infobox.
WSC makes some claims about his further, supposed non-league career. However,
the Guardian source states "Pike disappeared from the radar after that and it is easy enough for urban myths to develop. He had supposedly been spotted under assumed identities at a number of non-league clubs; he had, according to one story, uprooted to Dundee to study psychology. None of it is true." I would say that his word in an interview was a better source than a "football magazine", and I would personally disregard the WSC source. Pike is saying himself that any reports of him playing non-league football are untrue.
Davidlofgren1996 (
talk)
11:14, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
I get the feeling we don't have an accurate timeline of when he was where, but also having viewed this article recently way too much of it has been cut or trimmed. Also, there's a
[1] new recent Guardian article, and
[2] supports GiantSnowman's timeline and adds a bit of information we didn't have before (including images of contemporary news articles, confirming Orient, and supporting the breakdown of the marriage.) It's still a bit too
WP:PRIMARY for me, but there should be some way of tracking down news articles from the mid-90s, right?
SportingFlyerT·C14:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Source
2 is just the Goal.com article on another site, and the recent
Guardian article doesn't really add anything of substance to the article. I think
this edit (minus the Waltham Forest and Dryburgh Saints info) is probably the most accurate we're going to get, given the sources provided. We can always ask Pike himself on Twitter for further details,
@Sonnypike01Pike.
Davidlofgren1996 (
talk)
15:12, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
The new Guardian article adds excellent detail about his recent life. Are you going to restore the article to its not-stripped state?
SportingFlyerT·C15:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
@
SportingFlyer: I meant that it adds nothing of substance regarding the teams he played for, who he was trialing with, who he signed with, etc. It was GS that stripped the page down, I wanted to keep it at
this, but he kept reverting it back to a version with incorrect data, and he eventually stripped it down as some kind of compromise.
Davidlofgren1996 (
talk)
15:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
FreeBMD has no records for a Sonny Pike at all. A previous version of our article indicated that his real first name was Luke, and FreeBMD has a Luke Santino Pike born in London in December 1983 (Sonny could easily be short for Santino). That would mean the Goal.com article was wrong about his age, though...... --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Again, those are precisely the things he is notable for. A young English lad, on trial at Ajax, unrealised talent, who left the game at 18 without ever playing at first-team level.
GiantSnowman18:02, 19 May 2020 (UTC)reply
He may well be known for those things, but it is still unencyclopedic language and goes against the MOS. The article is better without it.
Spike 'em (
talk)
18:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)reply
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Association football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball articles
This article has been
automatically rated by a
bot or other tool as Stub-class because it uses a
stub template. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Hertfordshire, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.HertfordshireWikipedia:WikiProject HertfordshireTemplate:WikiProject HertfordshireHertfordshire articles
Untitled
I wonder if the article is claiming too much: can anyone really assert that he would not have had a breakdown if he hadn't pursued the goal of becoming a professional footballer, or that his parents would still be happily married if their had had the same footballing talent as me? The articles cited are not as confident in claiming that as this article currently appears.
Kevin McE (
talk)
21:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)reply
Chronology
There are numerous conflicting/contradictory sources about this person's career:
Goal.com - Enfield Colts at 6, Enfield at 10, trial at Ajax (possibly more permanent given he was there a long time, went to competitions in Denmark with them?), "although Ajax offered him a full-time place at their academy, Pike returned to England to join Leyton Orient", failed move to Chelsea, then played with QPR and then Crystal Palace (trial or permanent? not clear), joined Stevenage, quit at 18
The Guardian (2006) - joined Ajax at 7, later played for Dryburgh Saints in Dundee
The Guardian (2016) - his time in Denmark was while playing for 'East Anglia', spent 2 weeks at Ajax, then played for Leyton Orient, failed transfer to Chelsea, trialled at Crystal Palace, trial at Grimsby, never went to Dundee
WSC - Leyton Orient (signed), Ajax (training), Chelsea (training), later played non-league with Stevenage Borough, Barnet, Enfield, and Waltham Forest.
My view is to follow what Goal.com and Guardian (2016) say for the early career - Enfield Colts at 6, Enfield at 10, trial at Ajax, returned to England to join Leyton Orient, failed move to Chelsea, then trialled with QPR and then Crystal Palace, joined Stevenage, quit at 18.
Then follow WSC for the non-league career - Barnet, Enfield, and Waltham Forest
I think this is fair. However I have a couple of tweaks. The Guardian source states that Pike may not technically have signed with Orient at all, so I'm wary to put that on. If it does go on, the youthyears should only be 1996.(
1) Also his time at Stevenage should be seen as youth, rather than senior in the infobox.
WSC makes some claims about his further, supposed non-league career. However,
the Guardian source states "Pike disappeared from the radar after that and it is easy enough for urban myths to develop. He had supposedly been spotted under assumed identities at a number of non-league clubs; he had, according to one story, uprooted to Dundee to study psychology. None of it is true." I would say that his word in an interview was a better source than a "football magazine", and I would personally disregard the WSC source. Pike is saying himself that any reports of him playing non-league football are untrue.
Davidlofgren1996 (
talk)
11:14, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
I get the feeling we don't have an accurate timeline of when he was where, but also having viewed this article recently way too much of it has been cut or trimmed. Also, there's a
[1] new recent Guardian article, and
[2] supports GiantSnowman's timeline and adds a bit of information we didn't have before (including images of contemporary news articles, confirming Orient, and supporting the breakdown of the marriage.) It's still a bit too
WP:PRIMARY for me, but there should be some way of tracking down news articles from the mid-90s, right?
SportingFlyerT·C14:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Source
2 is just the Goal.com article on another site, and the recent
Guardian article doesn't really add anything of substance to the article. I think
this edit (minus the Waltham Forest and Dryburgh Saints info) is probably the most accurate we're going to get, given the sources provided. We can always ask Pike himself on Twitter for further details,
@Sonnypike01Pike.
Davidlofgren1996 (
talk)
15:12, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
The new Guardian article adds excellent detail about his recent life. Are you going to restore the article to its not-stripped state?
SportingFlyerT·C15:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
@
SportingFlyer: I meant that it adds nothing of substance regarding the teams he played for, who he was trialing with, who he signed with, etc. It was GS that stripped the page down, I wanted to keep it at
this, but he kept reverting it back to a version with incorrect data, and he eventually stripped it down as some kind of compromise.
Davidlofgren1996 (
talk)
15:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)reply
FreeBMD has no records for a Sonny Pike at all. A previous version of our article indicated that his real first name was Luke, and FreeBMD has a Luke Santino Pike born in London in December 1983 (Sonny could easily be short for Santino). That would mean the Goal.com article was wrong about his age, though...... --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Again, those are precisely the things he is notable for. A young English lad, on trial at Ajax, unrealised talent, who left the game at 18 without ever playing at first-team level.
GiantSnowman18:02, 19 May 2020 (UTC)reply
He may well be known for those things, but it is still unencyclopedic language and goes against the MOS. The article is better without it.
Spike 'em (
talk)
18:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)reply