A fact from Song–Äại Việt war appeared on Wikipedia's
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:39, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
User:Norewritingofhistory has converted all Zhuang/Nung names in the article to Vietnamese style names despite the fact that none of the articles except for Nùng people and Vietnamese specific pages use that transliteration system. For example, of the articles related to the subjects referenced in the article such as Nong Zhigao, A Nong, Nong Quanfu, and Nong Zhigao rebellions, none use that transliteration system. I created Nong Zhigao rebellions in the same format as all the other articles related to Nong Zhigao, but Norewritingofhistory accused me of creating it to push my own POV. The problem is that now that he has changed the names to Vietnamese style, all the links require extra work to link to their WP articles, requiring extra formatting. In addition to being different from all the other articles related to the subject since there are multiple names used on different articles for the same subject. Perhaps Norewritingofhistory can explain why this is preferable to the previous version. Qiushufang ( talk) 01:50, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi dear all,
I understand that using sites such as Quora is off limits on Wikipedia but after visiting this site: https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Vietnams-Ly-Dynasty-invade-China and reading Giao Vu's answer, it's quite clear to me that there is a strong mismatch in perspective between Chinese and Vietnamese perspective. His answer as follows:
In 1070, Wang Anshi (王安石 - VÆ°Æ¡ng An Thạch) appointed as Prime Minister (宰相) pushed through a series of reforms, including a military buildup. To test readiness of the new military force, the Song government sought a war. The northern Liao (é¼ - Liêu) and Xi Xia (西å¤) were simply too strong. A border official fingered Äại Việt as a future threat, but presently easy prey as the state was weakened by constant war against Champa. The Song government slapped trade sanctions against Äại Việt and encouraged a border region tribal leader to rebel, while making preparations in border towns for an invasion. After Vietnamese diplomatic inquiries were unanswered, the Lý king Nhân Tông sent 100 thousand soldiers under the command of Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt and a Nùng tribal leader named Tôn Äản to attack Guangxi by water and by land. Qinzhou (欽州 - Khâm Châu) and Lianzhou (廉州 - Liêm Châu) quickly fell to troops under the command of Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt, but Yongchou (é‚•å·ž - Ung Châu - now Nanning of Guangxi) held out for 40 days against a siege by Tôn Äản. In March 1076, the fortress fell as Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt's troops arrived, most of the 50 thousand people of Ung Châu either committed suicide or were massacred as they had refused to surrender. Some were brought back to Äại Việt as slaves.
The Song’s retaliation was swift, but perhaps premature. It transferred 45 thousand soldiers from the northern front and recruited about 50 thousands more, and began the invasion toward the end of 1076. Coordinated with Champa and Chenla armies attacking from the south, the Song army took Quảng Nguyên (part of the current-day Cao Bằng), drove deep into Vietnamese territory until hitting the defenses that Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt set up along the river NhÆ° Nguyệt (now the river Cầu) east of the current-day city of Bắc Ninh. In a futile, but costly series of battles along the river of NhÆ° Nguyệt, neither side came on top. During the battle came the first officially documented use of public war propaganda in Vietnam in the form of Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt’s short poem (even though LÄ©nh Nam ChÃch Quái - a collection of Vietnamese myths and legends - had a similar story about the earlier war against Song in the Early Lê dynasty.) Tiring of the costly war, the Song government readily accepted the Vietnamese proposal for an end to the fighting, and began the withdrawal in March 1077. Quảng Nguyên remained under Chinese control until the relationship between the two countries were fully normalized in 1084.
From the Vietnamese point-of-view, the destruction of the important towns in Guangxi played a critical role in diminishing the strength of the invading Song army. Had the Song court been able to spend the time necessary to prepare for a proper invasion, the invading army would have likely been much larger than the 45,000 trained troops that it had in the invasion of Äại Việt - the rest of the 100 thousands were either too green, or were support troops only. That was the reason for the preemptive war that Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt led in the brief few months between 1075 and 1076.''
Hence, I believe it would be wise for Wikipedia editors with more time then me to edit this article in favour of a more neutral point of view to prevent sentiments inflaming from Vietnamese and Chinese perspectives. Vpha ( talk) 17:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
A fact from Song–Äại Việt war appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 29 May 2017 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Lý–Song War. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:58, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:39, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
User:Norewritingofhistory has converted all Zhuang/Nung names in the article to Vietnamese style names despite the fact that none of the articles except for Nùng people and Vietnamese specific pages use that transliteration system. For example, of the articles related to the subjects referenced in the article such as Nong Zhigao, A Nong, Nong Quanfu, and Nong Zhigao rebellions, none use that transliteration system. I created Nong Zhigao rebellions in the same format as all the other articles related to Nong Zhigao, but Norewritingofhistory accused me of creating it to push my own POV. The problem is that now that he has changed the names to Vietnamese style, all the links require extra work to link to their WP articles, requiring extra formatting. In addition to being different from all the other articles related to the subject since there are multiple names used on different articles for the same subject. Perhaps Norewritingofhistory can explain why this is preferable to the previous version. Qiushufang ( talk) 01:50, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi dear all,
I understand that using sites such as Quora is off limits on Wikipedia but after visiting this site: https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Vietnams-Ly-Dynasty-invade-China and reading Giao Vu's answer, it's quite clear to me that there is a strong mismatch in perspective between Chinese and Vietnamese perspective. His answer as follows:
In 1070, Wang Anshi (王安石 - VÆ°Æ¡ng An Thạch) appointed as Prime Minister (宰相) pushed through a series of reforms, including a military buildup. To test readiness of the new military force, the Song government sought a war. The northern Liao (é¼ - Liêu) and Xi Xia (西å¤) were simply too strong. A border official fingered Äại Việt as a future threat, but presently easy prey as the state was weakened by constant war against Champa. The Song government slapped trade sanctions against Äại Việt and encouraged a border region tribal leader to rebel, while making preparations in border towns for an invasion. After Vietnamese diplomatic inquiries were unanswered, the Lý king Nhân Tông sent 100 thousand soldiers under the command of Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt and a Nùng tribal leader named Tôn Äản to attack Guangxi by water and by land. Qinzhou (欽州 - Khâm Châu) and Lianzhou (廉州 - Liêm Châu) quickly fell to troops under the command of Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt, but Yongchou (é‚•å·ž - Ung Châu - now Nanning of Guangxi) held out for 40 days against a siege by Tôn Äản. In March 1076, the fortress fell as Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt's troops arrived, most of the 50 thousand people of Ung Châu either committed suicide or were massacred as they had refused to surrender. Some were brought back to Äại Việt as slaves.
The Song’s retaliation was swift, but perhaps premature. It transferred 45 thousand soldiers from the northern front and recruited about 50 thousands more, and began the invasion toward the end of 1076. Coordinated with Champa and Chenla armies attacking from the south, the Song army took Quảng Nguyên (part of the current-day Cao Bằng), drove deep into Vietnamese territory until hitting the defenses that Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt set up along the river NhÆ° Nguyệt (now the river Cầu) east of the current-day city of Bắc Ninh. In a futile, but costly series of battles along the river of NhÆ° Nguyệt, neither side came on top. During the battle came the first officially documented use of public war propaganda in Vietnam in the form of Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt’s short poem (even though LÄ©nh Nam ChÃch Quái - a collection of Vietnamese myths and legends - had a similar story about the earlier war against Song in the Early Lê dynasty.) Tiring of the costly war, the Song government readily accepted the Vietnamese proposal for an end to the fighting, and began the withdrawal in March 1077. Quảng Nguyên remained under Chinese control until the relationship between the two countries were fully normalized in 1084.
From the Vietnamese point-of-view, the destruction of the important towns in Guangxi played a critical role in diminishing the strength of the invading Song army. Had the Song court been able to spend the time necessary to prepare for a proper invasion, the invading army would have likely been much larger than the 45,000 trained troops that it had in the invasion of Äại Việt - the rest of the 100 thousands were either too green, or were support troops only. That was the reason for the preemptive war that Lý ThÆ°á»ng Kiệt led in the brief few months between 1075 and 1076.''
Hence, I believe it would be wise for Wikipedia editors with more time then me to edit this article in favour of a more neutral point of view to prevent sentiments inflaming from Vietnamese and Chinese perspectives. Vpha ( talk) 17:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)