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Hawiye is the largest clan in Somalia and Habar Gidir are largest in Hawiye and gadbursi is the largest clan in Dir
Second paragaph refers to 'recent conflict.' Which one would that be? Obviously not the recent bdefeat of the Islamic Courts as that would not be enough time to change marriage patterns.
There information that is not true in the article, this article cannot be used as reference. Correction or Deletion needed by the administration.
Like everything else about Somalia this article is confusing. We state that there are four clans, then list five. Under the Subclans heading, we describe six main clans (including Digil). I don't have the authoritative answer on this but if someone does we need it. 215.65.49.70 08:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Let me make this clear for you. There is the Major Clan. The Major Clan (there are 6 Major clans) then has Major sub clans(each Major Clan has a Major Subclan, Each Major Clan ahs Several Major Subclans within it.)... which has subclans (these subclans divided more), and the it continues and continues down to Family names. for example, lets present George Bush a name of a Major clan in Somalia... it would go like this
- George Bush
- 3rd son of George Bush
- .... (this can continue on and on; for example of Geroge Bush had 11 sons, then it would go on till the 11th son.)
now lets look at 1st son of George Bush, he is sons would be the next level of Break up. so it would go like this
- 1st son of Geroge Bush
- 1st son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (the grandfather is George Bush)
- 2nd son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (George Bush's Grandson)
- 3rd son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (George Bush's Grandson)
All other sons of George Bush would look like that... now let me give you a tree of Everything in one.
George Bush (Major Clan Name)
- 1st son of George Bush (Major Sub clan)
- 1st son of the George Bush's 1st son (Sub clan)
- 1st son of the the 1st son of George Bush (sub clan)
- the son of the above George Bush (sub clan)
- the son of the above George Bush (sub clan)
- this will continue on (another subclan on and on until it reaches family name)
Now Imagine that for all the same tree lader for all the sons of George Bush.
To use a real Somali Clan to demonstrate this, I will use the Hawiye. which you can find at the Hawiye Article. ( not to complicate this, I only use a few, if you want the to read further, read the Hawiye Article. )
- Abgaal ( Abgal is Sub clan of the Hawiye)
- Ajuran ( this is a Sub clan of the Hawiye)
- Baadicadde ( another Sub Clan )
- Subeer ( All the names below are the sub sub clans of the Baadicadde
- Afgaab
- Maamiye
- Ilaawe
- Xaamud
- Ibrahim Baadicadde
In this Example, The Abgaal, The Ajuran and the Badicadde all have the same father. In other words, The Subeer, the Afgaab,the Maamiye, the Ilaawe, the Xaamud, and the Ibrahim Baadicadde have a common father who is Baadicadde. In this case, we say The Subeer, the Afgaab, the Maamiye, the Ilaawe, the Xaamud, and the Ibrahim Baadicadde are the subclans of the Baadicadde which is a sub clan of the Hawiye.
I hope this makes it little bit clearer and not so much confusing. when thing I hope not for is to make you even more confused! -- Samantar Abdirisaq 18:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Please do refer to the evidence and judge from there. It seems the article Wikipedia unfairly protects does not have enough evidence other than thematic map, which distorts the fact and splits one clan into two unrelated clans. Ex. Isaaq is a member of Dir federation/clan according to the internationally recognized TFG. Besides, The four big clans are Darod, Dir(clan)including ISaaq, Hawiye and Rahanweyn. Of these, the Dir and Hawiye trace their descent from Samaale through Irir Samaale. According to this UN Research, Hawiye is the biggest tribe in Somalia. It states:
5 While I.M. Lewis (A Pastoral Democracy, op. cit. and Blood and Bone; the Call of Kinship in Somali Society, Red Sea Press, 1994) treats the Isaq as a clan-family at the level of Darod or Hawiye, most Somalis, including Isaq I interviewed in Hargeisa, agree that they are genealogically part of Dir and that sheikh Isaq was a brother of Issa and (probably) of Gadabursi (sandwiched between the first two) and the Bimal, the only Dir clan inhabiting southern Somalia.
The second largest clan is Isaaq when we take into account its presence in Ethiopia and Djibouti. In the official Republic of Somalia is Isaaq the second largest clan after Hawiye, where Darod holds the third position. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.83.29.102 ( talk) 03:00, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, "A Country Study: Somalia" states Daarod is the largest clan by number. Figures from the CIA's factbook is not basically true and their stats are far from even reliability. For example, The online book, Somalia: a Country to Study, states "The capital of Mogadishu is located in the country of the Abgaal, a Hawiye subclan. In numbers the Hawiye in Somalia are roughly comparable to the Isaaq, occupying a distant second place to the Daarood clans. A Country Study Sab is the term used to refer to minority clans. The Digil /Mirifle / Rahanweyn are agro-pastoral clans in the area between the Jubba and Shabeelle Rivers. They occupy a kind of second tier in the Somali social system - because they do not follow a nomadic lifestyle, live further south and speak a group of Somali dialects (Maay) which have recently been classified as a separate language, they have to some extent been isolated from the mainstream of Somali society. A third tier, the occupational clans, have sometimes been considered as outcastes because traditionally they could only marry among themselves and other Somalis considered them to be ritually unclean. They lived in their own settlements among the nomadic populations in the north and performed specialized occupations such as metalworking, tanning and hunting. These clans include the Tomal, Midgan, Yibir, Ayle, Jaji and Yahar.
There is no clear agreement on the clan and sub-clan structures. The divisions and subdivisions as given here are partial and simplified. Many lineages are omitted. Note that some sources state that the Rahanweyn group is made up of the Digil and Mirifle clans, whereas others list the Digil as a separate group from the Rahanweyn. (For a comparison of different views on the clan lineage structures in Somalia see Conflict in Somalia (Worldbank, 2005, p. 56).) Ogayslabe/Ugaaslabe which is called Abdirahman Hassan Hamar Gale is a sub-clan of Warsangeli(Darod).
Habarawal, Arap, ( Garhajis, which is split into Eidagale and Habar Yoonis), Habar Toljeclo, better known as Habar Jeclo, Toljaalo, and Ayuub
To correct the above author, Ajuuraan is not Hawiye. Ajuuran is a clan that is not related to Hawiye. The problem could be solved if you merely look at the Transitional Federal government and how ever Somali clan is represented as a cluster of one group out of FOUR MAJOR TRIBES/GROUPSh
==The "4.5 Formula"== waa xaaraan sidee qaf haaf looga dhigay
To correct the poster above, the government actually follows a " 4.5 Formula.":
“ | The formula, first used in the Arta Conference, assigns equal representation for what it considers the four “major clans” ( Darod, Dir, Hawiya, Digil and Mirifle) and assigns half of the share of one major clan for what it incorrectly calls “others” | ” |
This left out the Isaaq, one of the "Five Clans," which is utterly unrepresented in government, or considered part of the ".5" rump at best. It is otherwise the primary clan of the government of Somaliland. Lack of a set-aside for Isaaq in the TFG government is one of the concerns the Somalilanders have regarding proposals for re-integrating them into a republic with the rest of Somalia. -- Petercorless 09:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Isaaq is represented as Dir. 33 out of the 60 MPs given to Dir is Isaaq. They hold high government posts such as the Foreign Minister, Planning Minister, and Deputy Speaker. Fyi, The Foreign Minister who is Isaq by clan speaks out to the secessionist that they should participate the reconciliation. the News http://www.garoweonline.com/stories/publish/article_7418.shtml
The 4.5 formula, is not recognized by the Isaaq clan (the majority population of Somaliland Republic), since they were not consulted in it's make up. A Somaliland leader stated: “Somaliland is a nation independent from Somalia,” citing 14 Somali peace conferences over the past 15 years, none of which the Somaliland administration participated in. Therefore, the ARTA or TFG governments of Somalia are not recognized by Isaaqs and do not represent citizens of Somaliland. In retrospect, the 4.5 clan concept does not have any real legitimacy, since it was created by warlords and politicians in their attempt to create a clan based government in Somalia that best suited their objectives, without the input of the general Somali population.
It is a well known fact that members of the Isaaq, Gadabursi, and Isaa clans that are currently members of the TFG were not selected by their tribe. For example, each of the 33 Isaaqs that joined Abdullahi Yusuf’s transitional government were invited and joined for personal reasons. They were not sent by the Isaaq population residing in Somaliland. The Foreign Minister of Somalia and other Isaaqs in Somalia’s government are considered as traitors by clansmen. This is evident from the fact that none of these so called Isaaq representatives would not dare visit their home cities in Somaliland.
It is incorrectly noted above that Isaaq is part of the Dir clan. Lineage of Sheek Ishaak (Isaaq) bin Ahmed is well known, there are several tribes in Yemen that are known by the names of his Yemeni sons. The Arabs of Yemen meticulously recorded his history and to this day have his authored books. Therefore, Isaaqs of Somaliland are not Dir. It’s funny and not surprising to see that a commentator above is going out of his/her way to show that the Darood clan is the majority within the Somali population (though this is clearly not the issue at hand), even by dismissing CIA research. Its sad to say, that’s how it starts with the Darood, by first claiming they are the majority, then it's “we're the most powerful”, and then, “only we should rule and be president”, and unfortunately it ends with murder of others who beg to voice their disagreement.
The correct and most logical position is that Somalis are made-up of 5 major tribes/clans, and a 6th group made up of unrelated tribes. The 5 major tribes are Hawiye, Isaaq, Darood, Dir, and Digil-Mirifle. The 6th group includes many small tribes and minority groups. -- Neo1922 21:05, 13 February 2007 (ETC)
"Somaliland" unilaterally self-declared itself as an entity seperate from Somalia, thus self-appointing its cabinet from its own clan members and building the so called state on that process of clannish foundation. However, that is a clear violation of the Act of Union signed. For 'Somalialnd' to be considered as a seperate State, it must first get the approval from Somalia. You can't just self-declare as an independent state after the Somali Republic collapsed in 1991 and the whole country descended into anarchic situation, thereby leading to the emergence of other lineage conscious states just as Puntland and Sanag State. Read this scholarly article. It discusses the Act of Union, which was signed when the two joined together right after independence. Article one of the Act of Union states, "“”The State of Somaliland and the State of Somalia do hereby unite and shall forever remain united in a new, independent, democratic, unitary republic the name whereof shall be the Somali Republic.”
Let us make up our minds and reach a consensus. We have to agree with what the international community sanctions as legitimate government. The TFG is regarded as a legitimate government of Somalia. And Isaq clan have 33 members out of the 61 members given to Dir. The larger number given to the Isaq indicates their majority status among the Dir confederation.
The table below shows Somaliland's distribution of seats in the Lower House and House of Elders by clan in 1999. Anyone who looks at this breakdown can see that balance of power is fairly distributed based on the subclan distribution in Somaliland. Isaaqs did not horde all the seats and subjugate non Isaaqs to the sidelines. One can see that fairness and inclusion is the foundation of Somaliland's leadership makeup. Somaliland has since moved towards party based representation rather than clan based representation. An excellent story that highlights this is that of a business man in Hargeisa that was voted into office in the 2005 elections, even though his subclan virtually has no representation in that City. He was put into power due his popularity based merit rather than tribal connection. That would be similar to seeing a black man voted into office in an all white city in United States, which I believe has yet to happen. --- Neo1922 00:55, 14 February 2007 (EST)
Habar Awal/Isaq 17 10.3 Garhajis/Isaq 23 14.0 Tol Ja’lo/Isaq 4 2.4 Habar Ja’lo/Isaq 28 17.0 Arab/Isaq 13 7.9 Ayub/Isaq 6 3.6 Gadabursi 21 12.8 Issa 9 5.5 Dulbahante/Harti/Darod 23 14.0 Warsangeli/Harti/Darod 11 6.7 Others 9 5.5 Total 164 100
Source: Pastoral society and transnational refugees: population movements in Somaliland and eastern Ethiopia 1988 - 2000 --- Page 8
Table 1: Somaliland’s clans by region
Clan Main | sub-clan(s) | Region(s) | Main districts |
---|---|---|---|
Isaq | Habar Awal | Waqooy Galbeed | Gabiley, Hargeisa, Berbera |
Isaq | Garhajis | W.Galbeed, Togdheer, Sanaag | Hargeisa, Salhaley, Sheikh, Burao, Erigavo |
Isaq | Arab | W. Galbeed | Hargeisa, Balli Gubadley |
Isaq | Habar Ja’lo | Togdheer, Sanaag | Burao, Erigavo |
Isaq | Tol Ja’lo | W. Galbeed | Gabiley |
Gadabursi | All | Awadal | Borama, Baki, part. Gabiley, Zeila, Lughaya |
Issa | Mamasan, Khodahgob | Awdal | Zeila, Lughaya |
Harti/Darod | Dulbahante | Sool, Sanaag | Las Anod, Erigavo. |
Harti/Darod | Warsangeli | Sool | Erigavo, Las Korey |
Dr. Barud writes, Ethnically, Isaq belongs to the Dir clan family. Of the four main Dir branches, Isaq belongs to Mohamed Maha Dir. Other Maha Dir sub-clans include Biyomal, Bajimal and Quranyob. The other Dir clan families in the north are the Gadabursi and Issa, who belong to Madaxweyne and Madobe Dir, respectively. The Isaq is divided into three main sub-clans namely: Garhajis (Habar Yonis, Ida Gale and Arap), Habar Awal and Habar Jelo. Garhajis who are the largest and most powerful sub-clan are against secession. Many Habar Jelo intellectuals I spoke with told me that majority of their peoples are not secessionists. Hence, the Isaq claim that they aren't ethnic Somalis or have been discriminated against by the south are pity fabrications and unfound hysteria engineered to incite hatred between the peoples of the south and north. In fact, it is in the records that the Hawiye and southern Dir sub-clans had greatly contributed to the formation and financing of the SNM in its very early stages. In his "The Cost of Dictatorship" book, Jama Ghalib (an Isaq) witnesses the contributions paid by the Southern Dir clans and Hawiye to the SNM in early 1980s. If there were no blood ties, then why wouldn't they pay the same contributions to the SSDF, which was Majerteen opposition faction? Source
I have to agree with you Petercorless, much of what you've critized is based on anti-Somaliland articles on the web. I have to say, there are people out there who's only science is Tribalism. Now, Dr Barud's knowledge base on the topic must be questioned since he is including Arap sublan as part of the Garhajis, which even Somali children know this is not correct. Isaaq being part of Dir is simply folklore, for to be part of Dir would mean that his ancestry would connect him to Dir. Isaaq's lineage is well documented by both Somali and Arab historians. You ask for sources, here is one, Mr I.M Lewis treats the Isaaq as a clan-family at the level of Darod or Hawiye -- Neo1922 00:00, 14 February 2007 (ETC)
I.M. Lewis (A Pastoral Democracy, op. cit. and Blood and Bone; the Call of Kinship in Somali Society, Red Sea Press, 1994).
To the moderator, it seems you are a bit biased against Darood because you aren't paying attention to the documents I cited above but you are selecting information that best backs up your prejudice and you make no bones about highlighting such prejudice. The House of elders is NOT an indicative of the clans' size, but rather the political participation for those who want to secede and in turn the support they amass from few Darod individuals in the old British Somaliland dream who do not genuinely represent their constituency, and hence can't go to the region they claim to represent. Evidently, there used to be representives of elders from the Darod clans and their small numbers indicate the lack of their participation in the political process of "Somaliland". Majority of Sanag, the Warsangeli, are averted to secession. For instance there are five official districts of Sanaag, therefore, only two districts are shown according to the representives from the region of Sanaag. On the other hand, all the districts of Awdal region are shown there for the Gudabirsi, a nonIsaq segment that fully supports "Somalialand". An Example of the official main districts of Sanaag as of 1990 before the civil war.
Erigavo, Badhan, Las Khorey, Dhahar, and El Afwayn, Source
Here is also a map that accurately and fairly shows all the Daarood clans.
thumb|center|570px| Somali tribes
Source: [ http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/somalia.html Perry-Castañeda Library Map Collection]
The page contains of lies and need to be deleted or neutral part to edit it rightly
This map is to show how the Warsangeli and Dolbahante clans are so averted to the idea of secession. It first appeared in the Economist magazine.
Something like half the actual text of the article is an overlong quotation (inadequately marked as such); that probably isn't allowable under copyright law, which allows quotation under certain conditions of length and proportion (as well as use). Here, we're using the quotation as a substitute for our own text. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 10:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not a quotation. It's my summary /rewrite of the text in L&S. I wasn't sure how best to indicate that several paragraphs of info was based on that source, but it seemed very important to indicate my source since there is so much conflicting info in this area. I'd like it back in, please, though very happy if you have a better way of indicating the reference. Gailtb 20:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about that; I misunderstood the situation. I've uncommented the section, and placed the citation at the end. I hope that that's OK. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 00:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Some of you may not know, especially Mel Etitis, or unaware of this formula in the transitional interim government.
In nutshell, the 4.5 formula was what the delegates of Somali Nairobi peace conference, after a much squabbles, have agreed upon.
The 4.5 formula gives equal quota to the four "major" clans, and a half-point to a cluster of "minority" clans.
Thus the transitional Somali parliament has 275 'representives,' each "major" clan having an equal seats of 61. Those "major" clans are: Hawiye, Rahanweyn, Dir (including Isaaq clan) and Daarood. The rest of so-called "minority" clans is given 31 seats to share among themselves. Those clans are, but not limited to, other discriminated ethnically Somali clans such as Madhibaan (Midgaan), Yaxar, Tumaal, Madhibaan and Yibir, and other non-ethnically Somali people, such as Eeyle, Jareerweyne (Somali Bantus), Reer Xamar, Reer Baraawe and other Banaadiri clans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soomaali ( talk • contribs) 04:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
Burden of proof belongs whoever put the statements on the article, not me. You said I should support my statements with evidence, which I brought. We closed that case.
Now, there are some other unverified and unsourced statements there, which absolutely has no source whatsoever. I don't need to put 'citation needed,' since you yourself demanded to bring a source, instead of suggesting a 'citation needed.' You did not suggest a 'citation needed' when I was putting those statements without sources prior.
Or you are simply letting the old versions, whoever put them there, to stay, without any evidence or sources? Is this the Wikipedia policy or following the guidelines?
I don't think so. No need to put 'citation needed.' The statements are strong enough and do need sources immediately. Otherwise they should be edited. It is easy. Soomaali (March 30)
I am here giving you sources, from the respected and academy-based JSTOR.org. Here is an original map from Lewis' book found on that site:
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/648/iririo1.png
Since I however cannot access the restricted academic site now, I will give you its google links:
If you have an access to it, you will have an access to the original source.
As you can see from the sourced sites, there are no such thing called 'noble' clans and Sab being a 'minor' clan members.
P.S., I am not against anybody or what anyone have put there. I just see too much misinformation, some deliberately put there. I am only trying to edit those misinformations. Nothing against any other editor. That is, I believe, the Wikipedia policy, following the sourced information, not uncited ones. Soomaali (April 4)
If you have access to JSTOR, then search the words "pre-Hawiye" and "Dir". I don't actually recall which page on Lewis' book it was on that lineage, but it was his book on about Somali history. I don't currently have access to JSTOR, so therefore, search the terms above and see what you get.
Soomaali (April 06)
And by the way, here is Lewis' book on Google Books:
The terms "Sab" and "Samaale" are explained there, so are the "Irir Samaale" too. Soomaali
All the info that I wrote in this section is sourced from Laitin & Samatar, but of course if other, correctly sourced info is added, then that will no longer be true. I therefore suggest that we indicate the source on each paragraph, something akin to my version of 08:59, 25 March 2007. Ok or not? I also think the wording of the second paragraph in that version was truer to the source. Gailtb 22:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there are a lot of misinformation on there. Like "Sab" being a minority clan, where it is not, but the lineage both Digil and Mirifle trace to. Also Dir (including Isaaq) and Hawiye are "Irir Samaale," not Daarood. Those are well known and you can google it if you want.
Also about the 'nobility' of certain clans. It doesn't exist in Somali clans. There are some discriminated clans like the Madhibaan (Midgaan), Yaxar, etc, as it was stated in the article, but never in noble or 'innoble' terms. Soomaali (April 08)
I've added the references to all the statements sourced from Laitin & Samatar. It doesn't look great like this. Any suggestions for improvement in format? Please could we discuss here before any more changes are made to avoid revert wars? (And if the information in that book is not correct, then we need good academic sources before making any changes to the "facts" which are presented.) Gailtb 19:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Er, we've got a bit of a mess here. When I started the page, I tried to use Harvard referencing but this has got modified and now we have a mix of stuff. Some of the article, eg the introduction, has Harvard citations, but other parts have footnotes. The footnotes in the Notes section are not full citations, which they should be. And the References section now uses a format which I don't recognise, certainly not Harvard. Please can we reach a consensus, and then edit? Gailtb 22:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed a duplicate on 20 Jan (Conflict in Somalia, Worldbank). Left the more detailed version. Gailtb 09:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I misunderstood. I removed the L&S reference yesterday because that info is not from L&S. Note the book was published in 1987 so it says nothing about what happened "in the early 2000s". Gailtb 09:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
When I started this article, I meant it to be about the Somali ethnic group, rather than the population of Somalia. Somalis also have homelands in surrounding countries such as Djibouti, Ethiopia and Kenya. Since the information about clans in parliament is Somalia-specific, I'm wondering about moving that information to Transitional Federal Parliament. Is that ok with other contributors? Gailtb 10:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have checked to see whther Somali people existed; how about Somali ethnic group, then, or something more specific? You say that, despite its name, it's not in fact about all Somali clans, so it should surely be renamed to something more accurate. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 11:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm also planning to move the percentages from the major clans section to Demographics of Somalia for the same reason, ie the figures refer to Somalia not Somali people. Will link to that from here. Gailtb 04:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to explain the rationale for some of my edits: The Wikipedia naming convention is that pages ought to have their common English name rather than the native name. I'm therefore changing some spellings to the most common English versions rather than the Somali spelling. Gailtb 07:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not objecting, I should point out; I'm just surprised that there should be common English versions for these names. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 11:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
There are a couple of <ref> notes in the article indicating some dispute as to whether Sheikhaal is part of Hawiye. As of late the notes have been subject to repeated removal and replacement. The notes probably stem from this statement in the Sheikhaal article: "Some Sheikhals, particularly the Aw Axmed Loobage subclan, claim they are part of the larger Hawiye group, while others, such as the Aw-Qutub subclan, dispute this." There doesn't seem to be any attribution for either claim. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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Hawiye is the largest clan in Somalia and Habar Gidir are largest in Hawiye and gadbursi is the largest clan in Dir
Second paragaph refers to 'recent conflict.' Which one would that be? Obviously not the recent bdefeat of the Islamic Courts as that would not be enough time to change marriage patterns.
There information that is not true in the article, this article cannot be used as reference. Correction or Deletion needed by the administration.
Like everything else about Somalia this article is confusing. We state that there are four clans, then list five. Under the Subclans heading, we describe six main clans (including Digil). I don't have the authoritative answer on this but if someone does we need it. 215.65.49.70 08:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Let me make this clear for you. There is the Major Clan. The Major Clan (there are 6 Major clans) then has Major sub clans(each Major Clan has a Major Subclan, Each Major Clan ahs Several Major Subclans within it.)... which has subclans (these subclans divided more), and the it continues and continues down to Family names. for example, lets present George Bush a name of a Major clan in Somalia... it would go like this
- George Bush
- 3rd son of George Bush
- .... (this can continue on and on; for example of Geroge Bush had 11 sons, then it would go on till the 11th son.)
now lets look at 1st son of George Bush, he is sons would be the next level of Break up. so it would go like this
- 1st son of Geroge Bush
- 1st son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (the grandfather is George Bush)
- 2nd son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (George Bush's Grandson)
- 3rd son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (George Bush's Grandson)
All other sons of George Bush would look like that... now let me give you a tree of Everything in one.
George Bush (Major Clan Name)
- 1st son of George Bush (Major Sub clan)
- 1st son of the George Bush's 1st son (Sub clan)
- 1st son of the the 1st son of George Bush (sub clan)
- the son of the above George Bush (sub clan)
- the son of the above George Bush (sub clan)
- this will continue on (another subclan on and on until it reaches family name)
Now Imagine that for all the same tree lader for all the sons of George Bush.
To use a real Somali Clan to demonstrate this, I will use the Hawiye. which you can find at the Hawiye Article. ( not to complicate this, I only use a few, if you want the to read further, read the Hawiye Article. )
- Abgaal ( Abgal is Sub clan of the Hawiye)
- Ajuran ( this is a Sub clan of the Hawiye)
- Baadicadde ( another Sub Clan )
- Subeer ( All the names below are the sub sub clans of the Baadicadde
- Afgaab
- Maamiye
- Ilaawe
- Xaamud
- Ibrahim Baadicadde
In this Example, The Abgaal, The Ajuran and the Badicadde all have the same father. In other words, The Subeer, the Afgaab,the Maamiye, the Ilaawe, the Xaamud, and the Ibrahim Baadicadde have a common father who is Baadicadde. In this case, we say The Subeer, the Afgaab, the Maamiye, the Ilaawe, the Xaamud, and the Ibrahim Baadicadde are the subclans of the Baadicadde which is a sub clan of the Hawiye.
I hope this makes it little bit clearer and not so much confusing. when thing I hope not for is to make you even more confused! -- Samantar Abdirisaq 18:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Please do refer to the evidence and judge from there. It seems the article Wikipedia unfairly protects does not have enough evidence other than thematic map, which distorts the fact and splits one clan into two unrelated clans. Ex. Isaaq is a member of Dir federation/clan according to the internationally recognized TFG. Besides, The four big clans are Darod, Dir(clan)including ISaaq, Hawiye and Rahanweyn. Of these, the Dir and Hawiye trace their descent from Samaale through Irir Samaale. According to this UN Research, Hawiye is the biggest tribe in Somalia. It states:
5 While I.M. Lewis (A Pastoral Democracy, op. cit. and Blood and Bone; the Call of Kinship in Somali Society, Red Sea Press, 1994) treats the Isaq as a clan-family at the level of Darod or Hawiye, most Somalis, including Isaq I interviewed in Hargeisa, agree that they are genealogically part of Dir and that sheikh Isaq was a brother of Issa and (probably) of Gadabursi (sandwiched between the first two) and the Bimal, the only Dir clan inhabiting southern Somalia.
The second largest clan is Isaaq when we take into account its presence in Ethiopia and Djibouti. In the official Republic of Somalia is Isaaq the second largest clan after Hawiye, where Darod holds the third position. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.83.29.102 ( talk) 03:00, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, "A Country Study: Somalia" states Daarod is the largest clan by number. Figures from the CIA's factbook is not basically true and their stats are far from even reliability. For example, The online book, Somalia: a Country to Study, states "The capital of Mogadishu is located in the country of the Abgaal, a Hawiye subclan. In numbers the Hawiye in Somalia are roughly comparable to the Isaaq, occupying a distant second place to the Daarood clans. A Country Study Sab is the term used to refer to minority clans. The Digil /Mirifle / Rahanweyn are agro-pastoral clans in the area between the Jubba and Shabeelle Rivers. They occupy a kind of second tier in the Somali social system - because they do not follow a nomadic lifestyle, live further south and speak a group of Somali dialects (Maay) which have recently been classified as a separate language, they have to some extent been isolated from the mainstream of Somali society. A third tier, the occupational clans, have sometimes been considered as outcastes because traditionally they could only marry among themselves and other Somalis considered them to be ritually unclean. They lived in their own settlements among the nomadic populations in the north and performed specialized occupations such as metalworking, tanning and hunting. These clans include the Tomal, Midgan, Yibir, Ayle, Jaji and Yahar.
There is no clear agreement on the clan and sub-clan structures. The divisions and subdivisions as given here are partial and simplified. Many lineages are omitted. Note that some sources state that the Rahanweyn group is made up of the Digil and Mirifle clans, whereas others list the Digil as a separate group from the Rahanweyn. (For a comparison of different views on the clan lineage structures in Somalia see Conflict in Somalia (Worldbank, 2005, p. 56).) Ogayslabe/Ugaaslabe which is called Abdirahman Hassan Hamar Gale is a sub-clan of Warsangeli(Darod).
Habarawal, Arap, ( Garhajis, which is split into Eidagale and Habar Yoonis), Habar Toljeclo, better known as Habar Jeclo, Toljaalo, and Ayuub
To correct the above author, Ajuuraan is not Hawiye. Ajuuran is a clan that is not related to Hawiye. The problem could be solved if you merely look at the Transitional Federal government and how ever Somali clan is represented as a cluster of one group out of FOUR MAJOR TRIBES/GROUPSh
==The "4.5 Formula"== waa xaaraan sidee qaf haaf looga dhigay
To correct the poster above, the government actually follows a " 4.5 Formula.":
“ | The formula, first used in the Arta Conference, assigns equal representation for what it considers the four “major clans” ( Darod, Dir, Hawiya, Digil and Mirifle) and assigns half of the share of one major clan for what it incorrectly calls “others” | ” |
This left out the Isaaq, one of the "Five Clans," which is utterly unrepresented in government, or considered part of the ".5" rump at best. It is otherwise the primary clan of the government of Somaliland. Lack of a set-aside for Isaaq in the TFG government is one of the concerns the Somalilanders have regarding proposals for re-integrating them into a republic with the rest of Somalia. -- Petercorless 09:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Isaaq is represented as Dir. 33 out of the 60 MPs given to Dir is Isaaq. They hold high government posts such as the Foreign Minister, Planning Minister, and Deputy Speaker. Fyi, The Foreign Minister who is Isaq by clan speaks out to the secessionist that they should participate the reconciliation. the News http://www.garoweonline.com/stories/publish/article_7418.shtml
The 4.5 formula, is not recognized by the Isaaq clan (the majority population of Somaliland Republic), since they were not consulted in it's make up. A Somaliland leader stated: “Somaliland is a nation independent from Somalia,” citing 14 Somali peace conferences over the past 15 years, none of which the Somaliland administration participated in. Therefore, the ARTA or TFG governments of Somalia are not recognized by Isaaqs and do not represent citizens of Somaliland. In retrospect, the 4.5 clan concept does not have any real legitimacy, since it was created by warlords and politicians in their attempt to create a clan based government in Somalia that best suited their objectives, without the input of the general Somali population.
It is a well known fact that members of the Isaaq, Gadabursi, and Isaa clans that are currently members of the TFG were not selected by their tribe. For example, each of the 33 Isaaqs that joined Abdullahi Yusuf’s transitional government were invited and joined for personal reasons. They were not sent by the Isaaq population residing in Somaliland. The Foreign Minister of Somalia and other Isaaqs in Somalia’s government are considered as traitors by clansmen. This is evident from the fact that none of these so called Isaaq representatives would not dare visit their home cities in Somaliland.
It is incorrectly noted above that Isaaq is part of the Dir clan. Lineage of Sheek Ishaak (Isaaq) bin Ahmed is well known, there are several tribes in Yemen that are known by the names of his Yemeni sons. The Arabs of Yemen meticulously recorded his history and to this day have his authored books. Therefore, Isaaqs of Somaliland are not Dir. It’s funny and not surprising to see that a commentator above is going out of his/her way to show that the Darood clan is the majority within the Somali population (though this is clearly not the issue at hand), even by dismissing CIA research. Its sad to say, that’s how it starts with the Darood, by first claiming they are the majority, then it's “we're the most powerful”, and then, “only we should rule and be president”, and unfortunately it ends with murder of others who beg to voice their disagreement.
The correct and most logical position is that Somalis are made-up of 5 major tribes/clans, and a 6th group made up of unrelated tribes. The 5 major tribes are Hawiye, Isaaq, Darood, Dir, and Digil-Mirifle. The 6th group includes many small tribes and minority groups. -- Neo1922 21:05, 13 February 2007 (ETC)
"Somaliland" unilaterally self-declared itself as an entity seperate from Somalia, thus self-appointing its cabinet from its own clan members and building the so called state on that process of clannish foundation. However, that is a clear violation of the Act of Union signed. For 'Somalialnd' to be considered as a seperate State, it must first get the approval from Somalia. You can't just self-declare as an independent state after the Somali Republic collapsed in 1991 and the whole country descended into anarchic situation, thereby leading to the emergence of other lineage conscious states just as Puntland and Sanag State. Read this scholarly article. It discusses the Act of Union, which was signed when the two joined together right after independence. Article one of the Act of Union states, "“”The State of Somaliland and the State of Somalia do hereby unite and shall forever remain united in a new, independent, democratic, unitary republic the name whereof shall be the Somali Republic.”
Let us make up our minds and reach a consensus. We have to agree with what the international community sanctions as legitimate government. The TFG is regarded as a legitimate government of Somalia. And Isaq clan have 33 members out of the 61 members given to Dir. The larger number given to the Isaq indicates their majority status among the Dir confederation.
The table below shows Somaliland's distribution of seats in the Lower House and House of Elders by clan in 1999. Anyone who looks at this breakdown can see that balance of power is fairly distributed based on the subclan distribution in Somaliland. Isaaqs did not horde all the seats and subjugate non Isaaqs to the sidelines. One can see that fairness and inclusion is the foundation of Somaliland's leadership makeup. Somaliland has since moved towards party based representation rather than clan based representation. An excellent story that highlights this is that of a business man in Hargeisa that was voted into office in the 2005 elections, even though his subclan virtually has no representation in that City. He was put into power due his popularity based merit rather than tribal connection. That would be similar to seeing a black man voted into office in an all white city in United States, which I believe has yet to happen. --- Neo1922 00:55, 14 February 2007 (EST)
Habar Awal/Isaq 17 10.3 Garhajis/Isaq 23 14.0 Tol Ja’lo/Isaq 4 2.4 Habar Ja’lo/Isaq 28 17.0 Arab/Isaq 13 7.9 Ayub/Isaq 6 3.6 Gadabursi 21 12.8 Issa 9 5.5 Dulbahante/Harti/Darod 23 14.0 Warsangeli/Harti/Darod 11 6.7 Others 9 5.5 Total 164 100
Source: Pastoral society and transnational refugees: population movements in Somaliland and eastern Ethiopia 1988 - 2000 --- Page 8
Table 1: Somaliland’s clans by region
Clan Main | sub-clan(s) | Region(s) | Main districts |
---|---|---|---|
Isaq | Habar Awal | Waqooy Galbeed | Gabiley, Hargeisa, Berbera |
Isaq | Garhajis | W.Galbeed, Togdheer, Sanaag | Hargeisa, Salhaley, Sheikh, Burao, Erigavo |
Isaq | Arab | W. Galbeed | Hargeisa, Balli Gubadley |
Isaq | Habar Ja’lo | Togdheer, Sanaag | Burao, Erigavo |
Isaq | Tol Ja’lo | W. Galbeed | Gabiley |
Gadabursi | All | Awadal | Borama, Baki, part. Gabiley, Zeila, Lughaya |
Issa | Mamasan, Khodahgob | Awdal | Zeila, Lughaya |
Harti/Darod | Dulbahante | Sool, Sanaag | Las Anod, Erigavo. |
Harti/Darod | Warsangeli | Sool | Erigavo, Las Korey |
Dr. Barud writes, Ethnically, Isaq belongs to the Dir clan family. Of the four main Dir branches, Isaq belongs to Mohamed Maha Dir. Other Maha Dir sub-clans include Biyomal, Bajimal and Quranyob. The other Dir clan families in the north are the Gadabursi and Issa, who belong to Madaxweyne and Madobe Dir, respectively. The Isaq is divided into three main sub-clans namely: Garhajis (Habar Yonis, Ida Gale and Arap), Habar Awal and Habar Jelo. Garhajis who are the largest and most powerful sub-clan are against secession. Many Habar Jelo intellectuals I spoke with told me that majority of their peoples are not secessionists. Hence, the Isaq claim that they aren't ethnic Somalis or have been discriminated against by the south are pity fabrications and unfound hysteria engineered to incite hatred between the peoples of the south and north. In fact, it is in the records that the Hawiye and southern Dir sub-clans had greatly contributed to the formation and financing of the SNM in its very early stages. In his "The Cost of Dictatorship" book, Jama Ghalib (an Isaq) witnesses the contributions paid by the Southern Dir clans and Hawiye to the SNM in early 1980s. If there were no blood ties, then why wouldn't they pay the same contributions to the SSDF, which was Majerteen opposition faction? Source
I have to agree with you Petercorless, much of what you've critized is based on anti-Somaliland articles on the web. I have to say, there are people out there who's only science is Tribalism. Now, Dr Barud's knowledge base on the topic must be questioned since he is including Arap sublan as part of the Garhajis, which even Somali children know this is not correct. Isaaq being part of Dir is simply folklore, for to be part of Dir would mean that his ancestry would connect him to Dir. Isaaq's lineage is well documented by both Somali and Arab historians. You ask for sources, here is one, Mr I.M Lewis treats the Isaaq as a clan-family at the level of Darod or Hawiye -- Neo1922 00:00, 14 February 2007 (ETC)
I.M. Lewis (A Pastoral Democracy, op. cit. and Blood and Bone; the Call of Kinship in Somali Society, Red Sea Press, 1994).
To the moderator, it seems you are a bit biased against Darood because you aren't paying attention to the documents I cited above but you are selecting information that best backs up your prejudice and you make no bones about highlighting such prejudice. The House of elders is NOT an indicative of the clans' size, but rather the political participation for those who want to secede and in turn the support they amass from few Darod individuals in the old British Somaliland dream who do not genuinely represent their constituency, and hence can't go to the region they claim to represent. Evidently, there used to be representives of elders from the Darod clans and their small numbers indicate the lack of their participation in the political process of "Somaliland". Majority of Sanag, the Warsangeli, are averted to secession. For instance there are five official districts of Sanaag, therefore, only two districts are shown according to the representives from the region of Sanaag. On the other hand, all the districts of Awdal region are shown there for the Gudabirsi, a nonIsaq segment that fully supports "Somalialand". An Example of the official main districts of Sanaag as of 1990 before the civil war.
Erigavo, Badhan, Las Khorey, Dhahar, and El Afwayn, Source
Here is also a map that accurately and fairly shows all the Daarood clans.
thumb|center|570px| Somali tribes
Source: [ http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/somalia.html Perry-Castañeda Library Map Collection]
The page contains of lies and need to be deleted or neutral part to edit it rightly
This map is to show how the Warsangeli and Dolbahante clans are so averted to the idea of secession. It first appeared in the Economist magazine.
Something like half the actual text of the article is an overlong quotation (inadequately marked as such); that probably isn't allowable under copyright law, which allows quotation under certain conditions of length and proportion (as well as use). Here, we're using the quotation as a substitute for our own text. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 10:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not a quotation. It's my summary /rewrite of the text in L&S. I wasn't sure how best to indicate that several paragraphs of info was based on that source, but it seemed very important to indicate my source since there is so much conflicting info in this area. I'd like it back in, please, though very happy if you have a better way of indicating the reference. Gailtb 20:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about that; I misunderstood the situation. I've uncommented the section, and placed the citation at the end. I hope that that's OK. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 00:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Some of you may not know, especially Mel Etitis, or unaware of this formula in the transitional interim government.
In nutshell, the 4.5 formula was what the delegates of Somali Nairobi peace conference, after a much squabbles, have agreed upon.
The 4.5 formula gives equal quota to the four "major" clans, and a half-point to a cluster of "minority" clans.
Thus the transitional Somali parliament has 275 'representives,' each "major" clan having an equal seats of 61. Those "major" clans are: Hawiye, Rahanweyn, Dir (including Isaaq clan) and Daarood. The rest of so-called "minority" clans is given 31 seats to share among themselves. Those clans are, but not limited to, other discriminated ethnically Somali clans such as Madhibaan (Midgaan), Yaxar, Tumaal, Madhibaan and Yibir, and other non-ethnically Somali people, such as Eeyle, Jareerweyne (Somali Bantus), Reer Xamar, Reer Baraawe and other Banaadiri clans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soomaali ( talk • contribs) 04:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
Burden of proof belongs whoever put the statements on the article, not me. You said I should support my statements with evidence, which I brought. We closed that case.
Now, there are some other unverified and unsourced statements there, which absolutely has no source whatsoever. I don't need to put 'citation needed,' since you yourself demanded to bring a source, instead of suggesting a 'citation needed.' You did not suggest a 'citation needed' when I was putting those statements without sources prior.
Or you are simply letting the old versions, whoever put them there, to stay, without any evidence or sources? Is this the Wikipedia policy or following the guidelines?
I don't think so. No need to put 'citation needed.' The statements are strong enough and do need sources immediately. Otherwise they should be edited. It is easy. Soomaali (March 30)
I am here giving you sources, from the respected and academy-based JSTOR.org. Here is an original map from Lewis' book found on that site:
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/648/iririo1.png
Since I however cannot access the restricted academic site now, I will give you its google links:
If you have an access to it, you will have an access to the original source.
As you can see from the sourced sites, there are no such thing called 'noble' clans and Sab being a 'minor' clan members.
P.S., I am not against anybody or what anyone have put there. I just see too much misinformation, some deliberately put there. I am only trying to edit those misinformations. Nothing against any other editor. That is, I believe, the Wikipedia policy, following the sourced information, not uncited ones. Soomaali (April 4)
If you have access to JSTOR, then search the words "pre-Hawiye" and "Dir". I don't actually recall which page on Lewis' book it was on that lineage, but it was his book on about Somali history. I don't currently have access to JSTOR, so therefore, search the terms above and see what you get.
Soomaali (April 06)
And by the way, here is Lewis' book on Google Books:
The terms "Sab" and "Samaale" are explained there, so are the "Irir Samaale" too. Soomaali
All the info that I wrote in this section is sourced from Laitin & Samatar, but of course if other, correctly sourced info is added, then that will no longer be true. I therefore suggest that we indicate the source on each paragraph, something akin to my version of 08:59, 25 March 2007. Ok or not? I also think the wording of the second paragraph in that version was truer to the source. Gailtb 22:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there are a lot of misinformation on there. Like "Sab" being a minority clan, where it is not, but the lineage both Digil and Mirifle trace to. Also Dir (including Isaaq) and Hawiye are "Irir Samaale," not Daarood. Those are well known and you can google it if you want.
Also about the 'nobility' of certain clans. It doesn't exist in Somali clans. There are some discriminated clans like the Madhibaan (Midgaan), Yaxar, etc, as it was stated in the article, but never in noble or 'innoble' terms. Soomaali (April 08)
I've added the references to all the statements sourced from Laitin & Samatar. It doesn't look great like this. Any suggestions for improvement in format? Please could we discuss here before any more changes are made to avoid revert wars? (And if the information in that book is not correct, then we need good academic sources before making any changes to the "facts" which are presented.) Gailtb 19:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Er, we've got a bit of a mess here. When I started the page, I tried to use Harvard referencing but this has got modified and now we have a mix of stuff. Some of the article, eg the introduction, has Harvard citations, but other parts have footnotes. The footnotes in the Notes section are not full citations, which they should be. And the References section now uses a format which I don't recognise, certainly not Harvard. Please can we reach a consensus, and then edit? Gailtb 22:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed a duplicate on 20 Jan (Conflict in Somalia, Worldbank). Left the more detailed version. Gailtb 09:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I misunderstood. I removed the L&S reference yesterday because that info is not from L&S. Note the book was published in 1987 so it says nothing about what happened "in the early 2000s". Gailtb 09:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
When I started this article, I meant it to be about the Somali ethnic group, rather than the population of Somalia. Somalis also have homelands in surrounding countries such as Djibouti, Ethiopia and Kenya. Since the information about clans in parliament is Somalia-specific, I'm wondering about moving that information to Transitional Federal Parliament. Is that ok with other contributors? Gailtb 10:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have checked to see whther Somali people existed; how about Somali ethnic group, then, or something more specific? You say that, despite its name, it's not in fact about all Somali clans, so it should surely be renamed to something more accurate. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 11:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm also planning to move the percentages from the major clans section to Demographics of Somalia for the same reason, ie the figures refer to Somalia not Somali people. Will link to that from here. Gailtb 04:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to explain the rationale for some of my edits: The Wikipedia naming convention is that pages ought to have their common English name rather than the native name. I'm therefore changing some spellings to the most common English versions rather than the Somali spelling. Gailtb 07:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not objecting, I should point out; I'm just surprised that there should be common English versions for these names. -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 11:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
There are a couple of <ref> notes in the article indicating some dispute as to whether Sheikhaal is part of Hawiye. As of late the notes have been subject to repeated removal and replacement. The notes probably stem from this statement in the Sheikhaal article: "Some Sheikhals, particularly the Aw Axmed Loobage subclan, claim they are part of the larger Hawiye group, while others, such as the Aw-Qutub subclan, dispute this." There doesn't seem to be any attribution for either claim. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)