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To avoid future lengthy disputes, engaging many Wikipedia administrative editors - I am pointing out to current editors violations of Wikipedia policy and will leave the time for them to consider corrections to their editing.
For example, I did not find in any guideline that the way of “editing” can be done by deleting a whole text, (such as section of Perception and Criticism, or others) - and then retaining the title of deleted section - but with a tag implying that ‘the - empty now - Section is open for editing’!
I wonder whether the same guidelines regarding defaming a living person would apply to defaming an organization of ordinary people. The article became an Advertisement serving anti-SGI lobby, having political and religious interests, written to highlight the agenda of political and religious interest in defaming SGI. (Of course, editors’ “Consensus” cannot be applied to an agreement to violate basic Wikipedia rules). Defining SGI by POVs in highly politicised-aggressive terms such as fascist etc...is defaming millions of families who are not fascists.
Another example is the Noriega hint. Ikeda met Noriega as a president of his country, and what happened with him later is not SGI responsibility. Any wise person would understand this. And similar meeetings occurred with many other world figures, for example Nelson Mandela, who read SGI publications while in prison and requested to meet SGI president when visiting Japan. SGI connection with world figures (many Noble Prize winners) is a fact which will be stated. The length of the article will get richer and of course longer, as the article must offer reader a wide spectrum of perspectives and facts - with no bias. There are of course many other issues in this messy and amaturish article, and all will be dealt with one by one. As I may not have the time to frequently monitor this page for a certain time, I wish all editors a fresh start and a meaningful New Year. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Safwan are you aware that you are are on the best way to discredit yourself as an editor in wikipedia completely?? Numerous warnings have already been sent out and now you attack another editor personally. Your behaviour tends to discredit the credibility of an organisation that you yourself seemed to have decided to represent in Wikipedia. Each and every edit of yours has made matters worse rather than better. Please be reminded that each and every edit and comment of yours are archived in Wikipedia.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 01:11, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Safwan your approach lacks objectivity. The history of the article shows that if you run out of arguments you even discredited sources and reference – so much for defamation.Interesting description of SGI … shame it is a blog, but matches my experiences and observations. http://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1rp7yf/ikedas_cult_of_personality_synonymous_to_idol/ -- Catflap08 ( talk) 07:04, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
The case is being built against the extreme bias and defamation in the current articles, using Wikipedia for political and religious agendas. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 22:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I wonder if it might be of use to list this article here: Wikipedia:Controversial articles ; Wikipedia:List of controversial issues. It would be useful to get even more editors involved who are:
-- Catflap08 ( talk) 09:36, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Safwan, the history of this article alone is a testimony why SGI is controversial. It is interesting that SGIists do underline the Internationality of SGI but when it comes to its involvement in politics its all of a sudden a Japanese issue – which I doubt especially in respect to the US. SGI is controversial due to its lack of financial transparency – i.e. use of donations. SGI is controversial due to its involvement in business – also not transparent and unaccounted for. Any SGI organisation outside of Japan is anything else but independent form its mother organisation. SGI is controversial due to the cult of personality concerning Mr. Ikeda. SGI is controversial because even though it likes to compare itself to Protestantism its leaders/representatives do not undergo any election process known to the public – this is in stark contrast to protestant congregations, excluding evangelical movements to which SGI has far more similarities. This may be due to the fact that 90 % of its members are not members in a legal sense anyway. So when speaking of precision it is incorrect to speak of members in the article full stop as adherents would be the correct description. It would be more than correct to challenge the conclusion that SGI has gained spiritual independence since the spilt form Nichiren Shoshu as this can only be said to be true for SGI’s leadership. In effect though the priesthood has simply been replaced with the SGI leadership. SGI is controversial because even though is eager to mention doctorates of all sorts it is more than a surprise to see that SGI is not known to have spoken out on human rights violations especially in China and Russia. It beats me why SGI officially conducts same sex wedding ceremonies in the US and Europe while at the same time Bharat Soka Gakkai is not known to have spoken out against discrimination of homosexuals in India on an official level. This is maybe the only issue where SGI is not controversial – it does not engage in controversial issues such as human, religious or political right unless SGI is affected. Furthermore it is incorrect to say that the article labels SGI as fascist. The article quotes and states critics which a balanced and neutral article should do – an article does not discuss, debate or takes sides. What it surely should not do is to describe a fluffy SGI-land. Keeping all this in mind (and much more could be said) SGI is just as controversial as Scientology, Eckankar, Evangelical movements, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and so forth. Your edits on the article have been anything but neutral – especially when labelling critics or alternative views as defamation you seem to imply that you are the one who is to decide which views are to be heard and which not – this is maybe a notion of free speech as practised in the organisation you are a member/adherent of. Wikipedia is not censored and it surely is not extended SGI-propaganda. So listing this article as controversial will get more editors on board who are simply neutral on the matter. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 10:01, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Now, whatever the article develops, the final word is for the truth and reason, no doubt about that. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Ah, I see following the principle that when you do not like the message - kill the messenger-- Catflap08 ( talk) 07:15, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
“It was pressured, bullied and forced to follow priesthood's feudalistic rigid ways. “ Makes one wonder why SGI waited to be excommunicated in the first place (having said that excommunication is not really the right term unless the Nichiren Shoshu practised the Holy communion; expelled might be the better term). Seems a trick of fate that SGI was in strong support of Nikken when he succeeded Nittatsu. The most neutral description I ever came across can be found here ( http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/Buddhism/IssuesInBuddhism/nikken.html). A view that can do without the usual muckraking and less drama.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 11:21, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Catflap; I doubt that you really know what you are talking about. Please focus on the subject. Here: you lack concrete understanding about the difference between Controversy, Criticism and Accusations. Using words without properly evaluating their meaning comes from lack of clarity.
You have published a looooong list, regarding SGI, believing of course that these accusations can be called “controversies”. Ok, now use your right to accuse, and listen to the answer you yourself triggered by your accusations. You don't agree?
Your list of accusations pertain to various important subjects in which the Law of the country is interested in. If you really beleive that SGI is of a threat to society, and that SGI is associated with unlawful or illegal actions, teachings, trends etc... then, Catflap and others: you missed the address; it is not Wikipedia to deal with your Accusations, you should go to Court: you are obliged to go to the Court by the Law and not hide your evidence. If no item from your lengthy list (of imagination against SGI) - is illegal, then your accusations are legally: invalid. You must accept this logic. What other option you have?
I do not know what priorities you acknowledge in your values: is it the “Law” or your “Personal Theories”. The “Law” of the country we live in - is part of the “Law of Life” , which we in SGI religiously respect. If you have respect to the Law of your country, then the Law must b your priority.
Let me have the right of expression, can I? Your problem is not with SGI, your problem is with Refusing Diversity in others. You are refusing the right of others (here SGI) to have their beliefs. But: not all people have to be, for example: Catholics, Catflap - nor Jews, Hindu,Muslims. Also not all Buddhist have to be Zen, Tibetan, SGI, or others. If you accept human rights and diversity then you accept that people can practice their diversity without threatening each other. (If there is a real threat: you should report it honestly to the Law). Harmonious coexistence of diverse organisations or beliefs - is possible.
You displayed in your list a judgmental categorisation of several minor sects or religions - squeezing them into an image of "dangerous". This is sterotypes baking. You are using the elemnt of fear : highlighting imaginary threat to society. What you are doing is spreading discomfort between human beings in society they can live pecaeflly in. Threre is a lot of religious hatred in this article. Because you started listing other religions you don't approve of, now let me ask you : does your religion teach you this behaviour to hate and accuse peaceful dignified people striving hard to live in harmony and peace. Is it your beliefs that are unhappy with SGI so you spend all your efforts on hate-sowing? Please don't answer me, just meditate on this perspective. I know you for about 2 years and I can understand something in your posts.
SGI teaches that we have to accept diversity and respect all religions and that this is possible. SGI Charter mentions this - and this must be included in the article. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 07:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
For the attention of all editors. Further up in the discussion I mentioned a web page on the SGI/NST issue. Even though it is a personal homepage and hence may not qualify as a resource on an article it does contain useful links. Its one of the most useful pages I came across in the internet written by someone familiar with SGI and Nichiren Shohsu that describes the history of this Buddhist branch without to much personal and emotional (propagandistic) baggage. The insights are quite detailed and it does take some time to read it all: http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 14:38, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Reading helps the issue. I was not not a "member" 20 years ago, but FOR 20 years. So that Beethoven's 9th symphony myth still kicks around as the start of the conflict? Who the hell is listing religions as dangerous? Who speaks of rumours and allegations? Why should I list questions over and over again? You are a master of twisting issues. Editors have added referenced alternative views on SGI. You are in no position to label those who have different views on SGI as liars, spreading rumours or question their integrity. This goes for editors as well as the authors of references listed in the article. In the long run an article is not even the place to discuss or challenge views on a subject. It is obvious that SGI and some of its faithful have a different view on certain issues may they be historic or current. It is however also a fact that perceptions exist that will collide with SGI's self-perception. The world is not black or white. Authors and sources critical on SGI are not automatically in favour of Nichiren Shoshu. The questions I added were rhetoric in the sense they summed up some of the criticism SGI faces. You may have made it your mission to fight the “enemies of the law” (to say it in SGI lingo). Safwan, this is the real world not SGI-land. In the real world people who decide to look up SGI may also want to find out why SGI is controversially discussed and what the content of views critical of SGI is. For instance a while ago I added a reference to the article stating that an OFFICIAL German parliamentary commission on cults came to the conclusion that SGI is 'problematic' ( http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/13/109/1310950.pdf Endbericht der Enquete-Kommission Sogenannte Sekten und Psychogruppen, page 105). I know for a fact that SGI was heard by the commission. You Safwan have challenged even that source … and by surprise it disappeared from the article. Controversies and Criticism stand in their own right, SGI may face and answer them in time but an article doesn't.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 06:47, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Any reasonable person would agree that – essentially - an Encyclopedia is a “Source of Information”. But what is the value of the offered information? This depends on the policy practiced in selecting or suppressing data. A North Korean encyclopedic work about USA is also a “source of information”, and intelligent reader understands what value one expect from such encyclopedic work.
In Western democracies, it is simply uncivilised and unacceptable to listen only to one side in a case and suppress the right of the other side to respond to what is said. Wikipedia policy is based on this spirit of neutrality – which guarantees being independent (and not under pressure from political or religious forces).
There is a difference between criticism of an organisation - and sheer aggression based on false accusation (such as SGI a fascist quasi militarist etc...) these accusations convey an image of trends and actions which are against humanity and breaching the law of western societies. If you are accused - directly or indirectly - of breaching the law of society, then you have the right to respond. The sources which accused SGI of fascism - rejected by the law of civilised society – are only "primary sources" of defamation. These are sources which fabricated accusations by themselves.
An organization labeled as fascist and brainwashing cult in this Wikipedia article would not have been praised by world acknowledged figures, many Western politicians, several Noble Prize Winners, or by historians, university professors and art and culture researchers (who conducted and still conduct close dialogue and publish exchanged views on humanity's sufferings and hopes). The article is not degrading SGI, but insulting all the thousands of universities professors in their associations with fascist militarist cult.
This may be now a matter much bigger than the current article on SGI itself, as it pertains to Wikipedia’s policy: the right of accused side to respond to false accusations – this is a right respected in all democracies. A subject as essential as this requires detailed preparation for raising the matter to proper avenues in Wikipedia. There is no hurry in bringing this up, but it is inevitable - and I have good faith that aggression and falsehood will not win over reason. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:43, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Safwan is not the only SGI member guilty of using fallacious reasoning [faulty logic]. Perhaps it is a consequence of his SGI training?
SS [talking about honorary SGI President Daisaku Ikeda]: 250+ honorary doctrates, etc. is not going to be given to someone who has an evil mind.
MR: Honorary degrees are often rubber stamped. For example, never has the City College of New York tabled any honorary degree. It is well known that benefactors are often awarded honorary degrees, people like your mentor who donate thousands of books to the various university libraries. It has been rumored that many of Ikeda’s degrees have been bought and sold for a lot more than books. Here is another example:
“The PM News of Sunday, 19 June 2011 also reported that President Goodluck Jonathan had approved N3 billion for the development of the University of Port Harcourt. The news was announced by Vice President Namadi Sambo who represented Jonathan at the 27th graduation ceremony of the university. The news came on the same day and in the same event in which Mrs Jonathan received the honorary doctorate degree awarded by the institution. Formally, Jonathan serves as the official visitor to the University of Port Harcourt.”
Some examples of evil men, monsters, tyrants, and dictators who have received honorary degrees: “The most morally grotesque academic elevation was perpetrated in Spain, in 2005, when the Universidad Autónoma de Madrid conferred a doctorate honoris causa on Santiago Carrillo, former leader of the Spanish Communist Party. As chief of police in Madrid in 1936, he had presided over Cheka death squads that murdered huge numbers of people (2,800 in one weekend) for the crime of being ‘bourgeois’. Benigno Aquino; Robert Mugabe; President Sukarno; Adolph Hitler, Robert M. Gates; Billy Graham; Sonia Ghandi, Jessie Jackson, Harry Laughlin eugenicist, the list goes on and on…
“The free distribution of honorary degrees, always a possible source of evil, is especially dangerous in the case of professional degrees, since the latter indicates the completion of an apprenticeship rather than the attainment of learning and confer priveleges of practical commercial value and subject to abuse.” — A.L. Benedict MD
Is it unthinkable that SGI is praised because of its power, influence, and money rather than its merit? Posted by Mark Rogow Feb.3, 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:C639:D483:38B9:4186:90EB ( talk) 07:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
This page needs to be rewritten. Most of the information on this page contains malicious rumors against the Soka Gakkai, with very little basis. It rehashes stories in the Japanese tabloid press, while excluding important information about the Soka Gakkai's activities. Daisaku Ikeda and the SGI are considered the only groups in Japan, willing to take a stand against racism and anti-semitism! Does this page include this information (that can be cited)? No. There are credible books written about how many elements in Japanese society have conspired to malign Mr. Ikeda and the Soka Gakkai. "A Public Betrayed" for instance should be cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shatrunjaymall ( talk • contribs) 01:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
There should be no depiction of gohonzon in any publication. This is verified in the gosho, as well as in the writings of all three presidents. 75.33.213.4 ( talk) 22:58, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Do you mean the Gosho, On The Treasure Tower which states, "You must never transfer it to anyone but your son. You must never show it to others unless they have steadfast faith. This is the reason for my advent in this world."?
Leaving aside that this Gosho is not in the Daishonin's hand and it is a problematic text, what is it that you do at your SGI meetings? You show it to countless potential converts who lack steadfast faith. Incidently, who cares what the three presidents say, what does the Lotus Sutra and the writings of Nichiren Daishonin say? The Nichiren Shoshu created this myth because they didn't want anyone photographing their fake DaiGohonzon for comparison and analysis. Photographing and copying Gohonzon is invaluable in order to learn about the Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren and the development of Nichiren Daishonin's faith. -- Mark Rogow Feb 3, 2014
In Nichiren Shu it never was forbidden to take a photo of the Gohonzon. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 09:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia’s classification of references and RS has been now enriched by a new category; “Fishy”.
I don’t know whether the editor involved (in endorsing this Fishy category of references) belongs to Wikipedia’s administration or not. This situation of arbitrary setting rules to prevent some references or quotes from appearance in the article - just because these references are associated with SGI - this needs addressing before the coming up change in the article.
The article is falsely implying that SGI has anti-social agenda, and this is an accusation which must be addressed. References from university professors, independent scholars will be added. But if such references are going to be considered as Fishy - according to this newly introduced category - then I will write to these professors that their integrity and due respect can be considered as under attack from some Wikipedia editors.
Past experience proved that the Dispute Resolution Board is not an efficient tool for examination of disputes. The DR Board allows independent Editors to take interest in the submitted subject of dispute, but as it happened before - for certain subjects those editors suddenly lose the ability to consider the subjects. And the submitted complaint (against bias) gets buried on the lengthy list of Disputes under a heap of other complaints.
Because of this fact, which I encountered in 2012 - I wrote to the three Wikipedia founders (Jimmy Wales, Richard Stallman, Rick Gates) - about sudden lack of editors in Wikipedia who would be interested in a given problem (it was about a Misleading Reference falsely implying that SGI lacks religious tolerance) - and I received from Richard Stallman a reply saying literally:
“Your experience parallels mine. I tried to find an editor willing to lead a dispute resolution process about the question of what name Wikipedia should use for the system which was made by combining GNU and Linux, and was unable to. It seems to me that Wikipedia needs to reform this process because the process does not in practice function. But I have little influence in Wikipedia”. Dr Richard Stallman, President, Free Software Foundation, 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA
While Wikipedia is making contact with Universities and Libraries around the world, (many of which shared with SGI some activity of cultural agreement (and some of their professors had dialogue with P.Ikeda published by reliable press) - then it is a conflict of interest to regard such publications supporting SGI peace and culture movement - as “Fishy”.
SGI has received over 330 acknowledgments from universities across the globe. The awards were delivered by a board of decision-making professors, at least 4 or 5 of them, which makes over 1000 professor world wide whose integrity and cultural weight is now being regarded as Fishy (when it comes to SGI article). There are literally thousands of local cities, including their mayors etc... which also do not know that to associate with SGI means contact with a fascist orgnanisation of anti social agenda.
Now please focus and read this: “ John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - 2006) Born in Ontario, Canada, Emeritus Professor at Harvard University. Served as president of the American Economic Association in 1972, economic adviser to President John F. Kennedy, and U.S. ambassador to India. Author of “The Affluent Society”, “The Age of Uncertainty” and many other works. His dialogues with SGI President Ikeda were published as a book entitled: “Toward An Age of Humanism”.
The “Fishy” category of references should not apply to books published by world figures (there are over 60 books co-published by Universities and SGI) - because Universities world wide are also cooperative with Wikipedia’s projects (such as Wikipedia Library and Universities scholars). I think taking the opinion of such professors about labeling SGI - an organisation they cooperate with in the field of peace and culture - as being “fascist” in Wikipedia Library must bring into a debate about the necessity to keep Wikipedia articles free from tabloid quality aggressive accusation serving only political interests of Japanese hatred to SGI. A non-biased article must contain an answer to each and any accusation using Wikipedia as a tool for political interesrs opposing to SGI. The whole scholastic and mature world would agree that the article , any article, should be non-biased. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Just carry on. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 07:04, 22 February 2014 (UTC) Ahhh now I know what you are aiming at. Anyone in opposition to SGI is a fascist, militarist, surprisingly even anti-Semitic and whatever “ist”. Is that right?-- Catflap08 ( talk) 07:32, 22 February 2014 (UTC) By the way I was not changing the subject I asked if you could elaborate on " Wikipedia is making contact with Universities and Libraries around the world" a statement you made, not me. You could not elaborate so be it. Secondly “fishy” is not a guideline. I can not speak in Shii's defence but he refers to references that are NOT supported financed or what so ever by SGI – especially and even more so when it comes to controversial issues. The term “fishy” may rather be colloquial but it boils down to the fact this book would not stand up against guidelines on references – especially in this context. Its counter-propaganda. Also I asked you to elaborate which resulted in attacks on those having critical views on SGI an labelling them quasi fascist. You may not be aware that you are contradicting yourself even more , lashing out against those sources that do not share your view does not help matters either. Instead of contributing to describe the beliefs and practise of SGI you seem much more concerned with PR related matters. You are beginning to walk on thin ice here and editors have warned you about that ages ago. SGI is a controversial issue inside and outside of Japan – your contributions here are a prime example of that. I respect your faith in SGIism but at the same time it is a pity to witness how you are simply the epitome why SGI is being regarded with suspect in the first place.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 21:56, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Shii referred to YOU as using this here as a Soapbox. Do not twist issues. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 15:07, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
These are not inherently bad sources. They just need due caveat, if one is to add it back it would need the caveat of where the source is [1]( Lihaas ( talk) 01:41, 19 March 2014 (UTC)).
I think User ubikwit be warned about sabotage. He removed the lines about SGI's nuclear weapon disarmament efforts sourced from UN office of disarmament affairs. Naveen Reddy 16:19, 24 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naveen Reddy ( talk • contribs)
I set the changes back made by User :Naveen Reddy as the AnomieBOT only restored the references. Sentences like “Shit this article stinks, stinks like with your dirty minds and motives who foolishly dare to malign a organization like SGI” neither help the article nor the talk page and do raise some doubts about SGI's adherents active in Wikipedia. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 12:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
In general I stay clear from editing articles like SGI or on its president for over a year now and keep myself mostly to contribute on the talk page. I do however interfere when it comes to edits that could be regarded as vandalism. Reverting already starts with the first paragraph – SGI may say it has has 12 Million members … other sources including official japaneses ones do doubt that number. This continues throughout your deletion process.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 15:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
@ Reddy “We work along with our mentor Daisaku Ikeda for betterment of ourselves and the society we live in ...” if that means betterment then it can not get much worse. So far you and Safwan have set a prime example of why the organisation you yourself have declared to represent are regarded with suspicion in the first place. From my point of view you can corrupt this article to your hearts content. I do not care as again it will then represent SGI. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 20:09, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
You just keep on fighting - who cares anyway. You carry on with your edits and the article will be a perfect reflection of your org - absurd.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
When my niece, a Soka Gakkai member, became aware of my participation on the Wikipedia entry for Soka Gakkai, she sent me the book “Encountering the Dharma” by Richard Seager. I just finished it and was very impressed by his conclusions. I think he explains the political agenda behind the press vilification of the Soka Gakkai quite well. One of his references was to a 1965 New York Times Magazine article on the Soka Gakkai in which he points out that the Times “dismissed charges that the Gakkai was fascist or even right wing.” (P. 69) He also writes: “I think it is time to cease being overly intrigued by the Soka Gakkai’s history of controversy.” (P. 209) I again submit that Wikipedia referring to the accusation that the Soka Gakkai is fascist (or quasi-fascist) is not applicable to this religion and the accusation should not continue to be perpetrated by Wikipedia. WmSimpson ( talk) 21:27, 8 April 2014 (UTC)WmSimpson 4-8-2014
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
To avoid future lengthy disputes, engaging many Wikipedia administrative editors - I am pointing out to current editors violations of Wikipedia policy and will leave the time for them to consider corrections to their editing.
For example, I did not find in any guideline that the way of “editing” can be done by deleting a whole text, (such as section of Perception and Criticism, or others) - and then retaining the title of deleted section - but with a tag implying that ‘the - empty now - Section is open for editing’!
I wonder whether the same guidelines regarding defaming a living person would apply to defaming an organization of ordinary people. The article became an Advertisement serving anti-SGI lobby, having political and religious interests, written to highlight the agenda of political and religious interest in defaming SGI. (Of course, editors’ “Consensus” cannot be applied to an agreement to violate basic Wikipedia rules). Defining SGI by POVs in highly politicised-aggressive terms such as fascist etc...is defaming millions of families who are not fascists.
Another example is the Noriega hint. Ikeda met Noriega as a president of his country, and what happened with him later is not SGI responsibility. Any wise person would understand this. And similar meeetings occurred with many other world figures, for example Nelson Mandela, who read SGI publications while in prison and requested to meet SGI president when visiting Japan. SGI connection with world figures (many Noble Prize winners) is a fact which will be stated. The length of the article will get richer and of course longer, as the article must offer reader a wide spectrum of perspectives and facts - with no bias. There are of course many other issues in this messy and amaturish article, and all will be dealt with one by one. As I may not have the time to frequently monitor this page for a certain time, I wish all editors a fresh start and a meaningful New Year. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Safwan are you aware that you are are on the best way to discredit yourself as an editor in wikipedia completely?? Numerous warnings have already been sent out and now you attack another editor personally. Your behaviour tends to discredit the credibility of an organisation that you yourself seemed to have decided to represent in Wikipedia. Each and every edit of yours has made matters worse rather than better. Please be reminded that each and every edit and comment of yours are archived in Wikipedia.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 01:11, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Safwan your approach lacks objectivity. The history of the article shows that if you run out of arguments you even discredited sources and reference – so much for defamation.Interesting description of SGI … shame it is a blog, but matches my experiences and observations. http://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1rp7yf/ikedas_cult_of_personality_synonymous_to_idol/ -- Catflap08 ( talk) 07:04, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
The case is being built against the extreme bias and defamation in the current articles, using Wikipedia for political and religious agendas. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 22:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I wonder if it might be of use to list this article here: Wikipedia:Controversial articles ; Wikipedia:List of controversial issues. It would be useful to get even more editors involved who are:
-- Catflap08 ( talk) 09:36, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Safwan, the history of this article alone is a testimony why SGI is controversial. It is interesting that SGIists do underline the Internationality of SGI but when it comes to its involvement in politics its all of a sudden a Japanese issue – which I doubt especially in respect to the US. SGI is controversial due to its lack of financial transparency – i.e. use of donations. SGI is controversial due to its involvement in business – also not transparent and unaccounted for. Any SGI organisation outside of Japan is anything else but independent form its mother organisation. SGI is controversial due to the cult of personality concerning Mr. Ikeda. SGI is controversial because even though it likes to compare itself to Protestantism its leaders/representatives do not undergo any election process known to the public – this is in stark contrast to protestant congregations, excluding evangelical movements to which SGI has far more similarities. This may be due to the fact that 90 % of its members are not members in a legal sense anyway. So when speaking of precision it is incorrect to speak of members in the article full stop as adherents would be the correct description. It would be more than correct to challenge the conclusion that SGI has gained spiritual independence since the spilt form Nichiren Shoshu as this can only be said to be true for SGI’s leadership. In effect though the priesthood has simply been replaced with the SGI leadership. SGI is controversial because even though is eager to mention doctorates of all sorts it is more than a surprise to see that SGI is not known to have spoken out on human rights violations especially in China and Russia. It beats me why SGI officially conducts same sex wedding ceremonies in the US and Europe while at the same time Bharat Soka Gakkai is not known to have spoken out against discrimination of homosexuals in India on an official level. This is maybe the only issue where SGI is not controversial – it does not engage in controversial issues such as human, religious or political right unless SGI is affected. Furthermore it is incorrect to say that the article labels SGI as fascist. The article quotes and states critics which a balanced and neutral article should do – an article does not discuss, debate or takes sides. What it surely should not do is to describe a fluffy SGI-land. Keeping all this in mind (and much more could be said) SGI is just as controversial as Scientology, Eckankar, Evangelical movements, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and so forth. Your edits on the article have been anything but neutral – especially when labelling critics or alternative views as defamation you seem to imply that you are the one who is to decide which views are to be heard and which not – this is maybe a notion of free speech as practised in the organisation you are a member/adherent of. Wikipedia is not censored and it surely is not extended SGI-propaganda. So listing this article as controversial will get more editors on board who are simply neutral on the matter. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 10:01, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Now, whatever the article develops, the final word is for the truth and reason, no doubt about that. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Ah, I see following the principle that when you do not like the message - kill the messenger-- Catflap08 ( talk) 07:15, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
“It was pressured, bullied and forced to follow priesthood's feudalistic rigid ways. “ Makes one wonder why SGI waited to be excommunicated in the first place (having said that excommunication is not really the right term unless the Nichiren Shoshu practised the Holy communion; expelled might be the better term). Seems a trick of fate that SGI was in strong support of Nikken when he succeeded Nittatsu. The most neutral description I ever came across can be found here ( http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/Buddhism/IssuesInBuddhism/nikken.html). A view that can do without the usual muckraking and less drama.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 11:21, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Catflap; I doubt that you really know what you are talking about. Please focus on the subject. Here: you lack concrete understanding about the difference between Controversy, Criticism and Accusations. Using words without properly evaluating their meaning comes from lack of clarity.
You have published a looooong list, regarding SGI, believing of course that these accusations can be called “controversies”. Ok, now use your right to accuse, and listen to the answer you yourself triggered by your accusations. You don't agree?
Your list of accusations pertain to various important subjects in which the Law of the country is interested in. If you really beleive that SGI is of a threat to society, and that SGI is associated with unlawful or illegal actions, teachings, trends etc... then, Catflap and others: you missed the address; it is not Wikipedia to deal with your Accusations, you should go to Court: you are obliged to go to the Court by the Law and not hide your evidence. If no item from your lengthy list (of imagination against SGI) - is illegal, then your accusations are legally: invalid. You must accept this logic. What other option you have?
I do not know what priorities you acknowledge in your values: is it the “Law” or your “Personal Theories”. The “Law” of the country we live in - is part of the “Law of Life” , which we in SGI religiously respect. If you have respect to the Law of your country, then the Law must b your priority.
Let me have the right of expression, can I? Your problem is not with SGI, your problem is with Refusing Diversity in others. You are refusing the right of others (here SGI) to have their beliefs. But: not all people have to be, for example: Catholics, Catflap - nor Jews, Hindu,Muslims. Also not all Buddhist have to be Zen, Tibetan, SGI, or others. If you accept human rights and diversity then you accept that people can practice their diversity without threatening each other. (If there is a real threat: you should report it honestly to the Law). Harmonious coexistence of diverse organisations or beliefs - is possible.
You displayed in your list a judgmental categorisation of several minor sects or religions - squeezing them into an image of "dangerous". This is sterotypes baking. You are using the elemnt of fear : highlighting imaginary threat to society. What you are doing is spreading discomfort between human beings in society they can live pecaeflly in. Threre is a lot of religious hatred in this article. Because you started listing other religions you don't approve of, now let me ask you : does your religion teach you this behaviour to hate and accuse peaceful dignified people striving hard to live in harmony and peace. Is it your beliefs that are unhappy with SGI so you spend all your efforts on hate-sowing? Please don't answer me, just meditate on this perspective. I know you for about 2 years and I can understand something in your posts.
SGI teaches that we have to accept diversity and respect all religions and that this is possible. SGI Charter mentions this - and this must be included in the article. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 07:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
For the attention of all editors. Further up in the discussion I mentioned a web page on the SGI/NST issue. Even though it is a personal homepage and hence may not qualify as a resource on an article it does contain useful links. Its one of the most useful pages I came across in the internet written by someone familiar with SGI and Nichiren Shohsu that describes the history of this Buddhist branch without to much personal and emotional (propagandistic) baggage. The insights are quite detailed and it does take some time to read it all: http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 14:38, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Reading helps the issue. I was not not a "member" 20 years ago, but FOR 20 years. So that Beethoven's 9th symphony myth still kicks around as the start of the conflict? Who the hell is listing religions as dangerous? Who speaks of rumours and allegations? Why should I list questions over and over again? You are a master of twisting issues. Editors have added referenced alternative views on SGI. You are in no position to label those who have different views on SGI as liars, spreading rumours or question their integrity. This goes for editors as well as the authors of references listed in the article. In the long run an article is not even the place to discuss or challenge views on a subject. It is obvious that SGI and some of its faithful have a different view on certain issues may they be historic or current. It is however also a fact that perceptions exist that will collide with SGI's self-perception. The world is not black or white. Authors and sources critical on SGI are not automatically in favour of Nichiren Shoshu. The questions I added were rhetoric in the sense they summed up some of the criticism SGI faces. You may have made it your mission to fight the “enemies of the law” (to say it in SGI lingo). Safwan, this is the real world not SGI-land. In the real world people who decide to look up SGI may also want to find out why SGI is controversially discussed and what the content of views critical of SGI is. For instance a while ago I added a reference to the article stating that an OFFICIAL German parliamentary commission on cults came to the conclusion that SGI is 'problematic' ( http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/13/109/1310950.pdf Endbericht der Enquete-Kommission Sogenannte Sekten und Psychogruppen, page 105). I know for a fact that SGI was heard by the commission. You Safwan have challenged even that source … and by surprise it disappeared from the article. Controversies and Criticism stand in their own right, SGI may face and answer them in time but an article doesn't.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 06:47, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Any reasonable person would agree that – essentially - an Encyclopedia is a “Source of Information”. But what is the value of the offered information? This depends on the policy practiced in selecting or suppressing data. A North Korean encyclopedic work about USA is also a “source of information”, and intelligent reader understands what value one expect from such encyclopedic work.
In Western democracies, it is simply uncivilised and unacceptable to listen only to one side in a case and suppress the right of the other side to respond to what is said. Wikipedia policy is based on this spirit of neutrality – which guarantees being independent (and not under pressure from political or religious forces).
There is a difference between criticism of an organisation - and sheer aggression based on false accusation (such as SGI a fascist quasi militarist etc...) these accusations convey an image of trends and actions which are against humanity and breaching the law of western societies. If you are accused - directly or indirectly - of breaching the law of society, then you have the right to respond. The sources which accused SGI of fascism - rejected by the law of civilised society – are only "primary sources" of defamation. These are sources which fabricated accusations by themselves.
An organization labeled as fascist and brainwashing cult in this Wikipedia article would not have been praised by world acknowledged figures, many Western politicians, several Noble Prize Winners, or by historians, university professors and art and culture researchers (who conducted and still conduct close dialogue and publish exchanged views on humanity's sufferings and hopes). The article is not degrading SGI, but insulting all the thousands of universities professors in their associations with fascist militarist cult.
This may be now a matter much bigger than the current article on SGI itself, as it pertains to Wikipedia’s policy: the right of accused side to respond to false accusations – this is a right respected in all democracies. A subject as essential as this requires detailed preparation for raising the matter to proper avenues in Wikipedia. There is no hurry in bringing this up, but it is inevitable - and I have good faith that aggression and falsehood will not win over reason. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:43, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Safwan is not the only SGI member guilty of using fallacious reasoning [faulty logic]. Perhaps it is a consequence of his SGI training?
SS [talking about honorary SGI President Daisaku Ikeda]: 250+ honorary doctrates, etc. is not going to be given to someone who has an evil mind.
MR: Honorary degrees are often rubber stamped. For example, never has the City College of New York tabled any honorary degree. It is well known that benefactors are often awarded honorary degrees, people like your mentor who donate thousands of books to the various university libraries. It has been rumored that many of Ikeda’s degrees have been bought and sold for a lot more than books. Here is another example:
“The PM News of Sunday, 19 June 2011 also reported that President Goodluck Jonathan had approved N3 billion for the development of the University of Port Harcourt. The news was announced by Vice President Namadi Sambo who represented Jonathan at the 27th graduation ceremony of the university. The news came on the same day and in the same event in which Mrs Jonathan received the honorary doctorate degree awarded by the institution. Formally, Jonathan serves as the official visitor to the University of Port Harcourt.”
Some examples of evil men, monsters, tyrants, and dictators who have received honorary degrees: “The most morally grotesque academic elevation was perpetrated in Spain, in 2005, when the Universidad Autónoma de Madrid conferred a doctorate honoris causa on Santiago Carrillo, former leader of the Spanish Communist Party. As chief of police in Madrid in 1936, he had presided over Cheka death squads that murdered huge numbers of people (2,800 in one weekend) for the crime of being ‘bourgeois’. Benigno Aquino; Robert Mugabe; President Sukarno; Adolph Hitler, Robert M. Gates; Billy Graham; Sonia Ghandi, Jessie Jackson, Harry Laughlin eugenicist, the list goes on and on…
“The free distribution of honorary degrees, always a possible source of evil, is especially dangerous in the case of professional degrees, since the latter indicates the completion of an apprenticeship rather than the attainment of learning and confer priveleges of practical commercial value and subject to abuse.” — A.L. Benedict MD
Is it unthinkable that SGI is praised because of its power, influence, and money rather than its merit? Posted by Mark Rogow Feb.3, 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:C639:D483:38B9:4186:90EB ( talk) 07:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
This page needs to be rewritten. Most of the information on this page contains malicious rumors against the Soka Gakkai, with very little basis. It rehashes stories in the Japanese tabloid press, while excluding important information about the Soka Gakkai's activities. Daisaku Ikeda and the SGI are considered the only groups in Japan, willing to take a stand against racism and anti-semitism! Does this page include this information (that can be cited)? No. There are credible books written about how many elements in Japanese society have conspired to malign Mr. Ikeda and the Soka Gakkai. "A Public Betrayed" for instance should be cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shatrunjaymall ( talk • contribs) 01:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
There should be no depiction of gohonzon in any publication. This is verified in the gosho, as well as in the writings of all three presidents. 75.33.213.4 ( talk) 22:58, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Do you mean the Gosho, On The Treasure Tower which states, "You must never transfer it to anyone but your son. You must never show it to others unless they have steadfast faith. This is the reason for my advent in this world."?
Leaving aside that this Gosho is not in the Daishonin's hand and it is a problematic text, what is it that you do at your SGI meetings? You show it to countless potential converts who lack steadfast faith. Incidently, who cares what the three presidents say, what does the Lotus Sutra and the writings of Nichiren Daishonin say? The Nichiren Shoshu created this myth because they didn't want anyone photographing their fake DaiGohonzon for comparison and analysis. Photographing and copying Gohonzon is invaluable in order to learn about the Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren and the development of Nichiren Daishonin's faith. -- Mark Rogow Feb 3, 2014
In Nichiren Shu it never was forbidden to take a photo of the Gohonzon. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 09:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia’s classification of references and RS has been now enriched by a new category; “Fishy”.
I don’t know whether the editor involved (in endorsing this Fishy category of references) belongs to Wikipedia’s administration or not. This situation of arbitrary setting rules to prevent some references or quotes from appearance in the article - just because these references are associated with SGI - this needs addressing before the coming up change in the article.
The article is falsely implying that SGI has anti-social agenda, and this is an accusation which must be addressed. References from university professors, independent scholars will be added. But if such references are going to be considered as Fishy - according to this newly introduced category - then I will write to these professors that their integrity and due respect can be considered as under attack from some Wikipedia editors.
Past experience proved that the Dispute Resolution Board is not an efficient tool for examination of disputes. The DR Board allows independent Editors to take interest in the submitted subject of dispute, but as it happened before - for certain subjects those editors suddenly lose the ability to consider the subjects. And the submitted complaint (against bias) gets buried on the lengthy list of Disputes under a heap of other complaints.
Because of this fact, which I encountered in 2012 - I wrote to the three Wikipedia founders (Jimmy Wales, Richard Stallman, Rick Gates) - about sudden lack of editors in Wikipedia who would be interested in a given problem (it was about a Misleading Reference falsely implying that SGI lacks religious tolerance) - and I received from Richard Stallman a reply saying literally:
“Your experience parallels mine. I tried to find an editor willing to lead a dispute resolution process about the question of what name Wikipedia should use for the system which was made by combining GNU and Linux, and was unable to. It seems to me that Wikipedia needs to reform this process because the process does not in practice function. But I have little influence in Wikipedia”. Dr Richard Stallman, President, Free Software Foundation, 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA
While Wikipedia is making contact with Universities and Libraries around the world, (many of which shared with SGI some activity of cultural agreement (and some of their professors had dialogue with P.Ikeda published by reliable press) - then it is a conflict of interest to regard such publications supporting SGI peace and culture movement - as “Fishy”.
SGI has received over 330 acknowledgments from universities across the globe. The awards were delivered by a board of decision-making professors, at least 4 or 5 of them, which makes over 1000 professor world wide whose integrity and cultural weight is now being regarded as Fishy (when it comes to SGI article). There are literally thousands of local cities, including their mayors etc... which also do not know that to associate with SGI means contact with a fascist orgnanisation of anti social agenda.
Now please focus and read this: “ John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - 2006) Born in Ontario, Canada, Emeritus Professor at Harvard University. Served as president of the American Economic Association in 1972, economic adviser to President John F. Kennedy, and U.S. ambassador to India. Author of “The Affluent Society”, “The Age of Uncertainty” and many other works. His dialogues with SGI President Ikeda were published as a book entitled: “Toward An Age of Humanism”.
The “Fishy” category of references should not apply to books published by world figures (there are over 60 books co-published by Universities and SGI) - because Universities world wide are also cooperative with Wikipedia’s projects (such as Wikipedia Library and Universities scholars). I think taking the opinion of such professors about labeling SGI - an organisation they cooperate with in the field of peace and culture - as being “fascist” in Wikipedia Library must bring into a debate about the necessity to keep Wikipedia articles free from tabloid quality aggressive accusation serving only political interests of Japanese hatred to SGI. A non-biased article must contain an answer to each and any accusation using Wikipedia as a tool for political interesrs opposing to SGI. The whole scholastic and mature world would agree that the article , any article, should be non-biased. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Just carry on. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 07:04, 22 February 2014 (UTC) Ahhh now I know what you are aiming at. Anyone in opposition to SGI is a fascist, militarist, surprisingly even anti-Semitic and whatever “ist”. Is that right?-- Catflap08 ( talk) 07:32, 22 February 2014 (UTC) By the way I was not changing the subject I asked if you could elaborate on " Wikipedia is making contact with Universities and Libraries around the world" a statement you made, not me. You could not elaborate so be it. Secondly “fishy” is not a guideline. I can not speak in Shii's defence but he refers to references that are NOT supported financed or what so ever by SGI – especially and even more so when it comes to controversial issues. The term “fishy” may rather be colloquial but it boils down to the fact this book would not stand up against guidelines on references – especially in this context. Its counter-propaganda. Also I asked you to elaborate which resulted in attacks on those having critical views on SGI an labelling them quasi fascist. You may not be aware that you are contradicting yourself even more , lashing out against those sources that do not share your view does not help matters either. Instead of contributing to describe the beliefs and practise of SGI you seem much more concerned with PR related matters. You are beginning to walk on thin ice here and editors have warned you about that ages ago. SGI is a controversial issue inside and outside of Japan – your contributions here are a prime example of that. I respect your faith in SGIism but at the same time it is a pity to witness how you are simply the epitome why SGI is being regarded with suspect in the first place.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 21:56, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Shii referred to YOU as using this here as a Soapbox. Do not twist issues. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 15:07, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
These are not inherently bad sources. They just need due caveat, if one is to add it back it would need the caveat of where the source is [1]( Lihaas ( talk) 01:41, 19 March 2014 (UTC)).
I think User ubikwit be warned about sabotage. He removed the lines about SGI's nuclear weapon disarmament efforts sourced from UN office of disarmament affairs. Naveen Reddy 16:19, 24 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naveen Reddy ( talk • contribs)
I set the changes back made by User :Naveen Reddy as the AnomieBOT only restored the references. Sentences like “Shit this article stinks, stinks like with your dirty minds and motives who foolishly dare to malign a organization like SGI” neither help the article nor the talk page and do raise some doubts about SGI's adherents active in Wikipedia. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 12:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
In general I stay clear from editing articles like SGI or on its president for over a year now and keep myself mostly to contribute on the talk page. I do however interfere when it comes to edits that could be regarded as vandalism. Reverting already starts with the first paragraph – SGI may say it has has 12 Million members … other sources including official japaneses ones do doubt that number. This continues throughout your deletion process.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 15:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
@ Reddy “We work along with our mentor Daisaku Ikeda for betterment of ourselves and the society we live in ...” if that means betterment then it can not get much worse. So far you and Safwan have set a prime example of why the organisation you yourself have declared to represent are regarded with suspicion in the first place. From my point of view you can corrupt this article to your hearts content. I do not care as again it will then represent SGI. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 20:09, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
You just keep on fighting - who cares anyway. You carry on with your edits and the article will be a perfect reflection of your org - absurd.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
When my niece, a Soka Gakkai member, became aware of my participation on the Wikipedia entry for Soka Gakkai, she sent me the book “Encountering the Dharma” by Richard Seager. I just finished it and was very impressed by his conclusions. I think he explains the political agenda behind the press vilification of the Soka Gakkai quite well. One of his references was to a 1965 New York Times Magazine article on the Soka Gakkai in which he points out that the Times “dismissed charges that the Gakkai was fascist or even right wing.” (P. 69) He also writes: “I think it is time to cease being overly intrigued by the Soka Gakkai’s history of controversy.” (P. 209) I again submit that Wikipedia referring to the accusation that the Soka Gakkai is fascist (or quasi-fascist) is not applicable to this religion and the accusation should not continue to be perpetrated by Wikipedia. WmSimpson ( talk) 21:27, 8 April 2014 (UTC)WmSimpson 4-8-2014