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Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
Wikipedia articles should portray the truth and factual matters about the subject. I see no reason why the fact of SGI being registered within the United Nations in various committees - why this fact should be deleted, hidden or avoided. Openmindedness and academic honesty would require to record how the SGI as an organisation is regarded world wide and how the UN works with, perceives and considers SGI is a fact that should be part of the whole picture.
I request editors who bulk-delete what they do not "like" to first bring the subject of their "dislike' of facts - on this Talk page. If there is something to change or further ask Wiki-editors for opinion, then this page can deal with such subjects and we can exchange information and come together to a reasonable outcome. Let 'Reason' and wise approach win rather than deleting without reason, without giving a reason or sound argument for the deletion. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 23:46, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I've made a plethora of edits to the article - which I personally think have made it 1) more readable 2) more balanced 3) more adherent to WP:MOS, among other things. Here's a diff link showing the results of my 38 edits: [1]. The intro might read overly negative - I'd like to weigh this up with a reliable source mentioning how Soka Gakkai is acclaimed for its work for peace (and perhaps something else), but I had a hard time finding such a source (I went through some of the sources given in the "Perceptions" (now "Critique") section in hope of finding something but the poor standard led me instead of removing several of them from the article altogether). If anybody has a snappy adjective that could be added up there, please go ahead.
The article is still plagued by poor formatting, unreliable and POV sources, but I think my edits amount to at least a start. Kiruning ( talk) 05:07, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree to Shii. Still a lot of work ahead. I had my own share of edit wars in this article (and others). Good to see that some effort is being done to make the article at least a bit more unbiased.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:50, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I'd welcome positive comments made about the Gakkai in the intro, as I've already mentioned. So do go ahead. Just make sure you use reliable sources and don't fall into the trap of inferring stuff (again, see WP:OR). That Rosa Parks has appeared at an SGI-sponsored event is of course not the same as ascribing to her the view that "SGI is a wonderful organization." 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 11:10, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I added a little paragraph on Shoshinkai. Before the article read as if it always was a question of right or wrong between Nichiren Shoshu and Soka Gakai. Truth is that long before the split some priests and lay believers detested both sides. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 12:49, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I've been reading through WP:CRIT and thinking a little on the topic, I've come to the conclusion that the section now titled "Critiques" (previously "Perceptions") would perhaps best be phased out. I don't mean to delete anything that's noteworthy, but perhaps it should best be included in other parts of the article. Personally, I have something of a pendant for criticism sections and it's usually the first thing I look for in a wiki article because they allow me to cut straight through the bullshit and see just what the fuzz is, but I think the lead section, as it is now, doesn't shy away from the criticism, in a good way. What does everybody else think? 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 13:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
From what I gather, Soka Kyoiku Gakkai was more secular than the organization Toda created after the war. But to what degree was the Kyoiku Gakkai associated with Nichiren Shoshu from the very start (when he wrote that book of his) and how much happened afterwards? The Japanese Wikipedia suggests the Nichiren teachings were in focus from the beginning, but there's no source given: "1930年11月18日、小学校の校長だった牧口常三郎と、戸田城聖ら当時の教育者などが集い、日蓮の仏法精神に基づく教育の実践(教育者の育成)を目的とする団体「創価教育学会」を創立。" If there's any source on the exact involvements with the Shoshu, that'd be great. 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 06:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
New Age | Jehova's Witnesses | Scientology | Druidry | Mormonism | Unitarian Universalism |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
History |
Spirituality | Lifestyle | Reception | Social and political movement |
History | Organization | Beliefs | Practices | Demographics | Sociological analysis | Opposition | Criticism |
Etymology and earlier usage | History | Membership statistics | Beliefs and practices | Organization | Dispute of religion status | Controversies | Celebrities |
Beliefs | Practices | History | Demographics |
Brief history | Theology | Relations to other faiths | Theological divisions |
History | Beliefs | Worship and ritual | Politics | Controversies | Organizations | Number of members | Notable members | Notable congregations |
(comparison of how some other articles on religions/religious groups are structured. New Age is rated a "good article", the others aren't)
What's the ideal structure of the article? How many main sections do we want? I think that there's far too many at the moment. "Sources of beliefs and world view", "practice and activites", "Teachings and philosophy", "Mentor-Disciple Relationship in SGI" - these should at the very most be two different sections, to my mind (and be seriously trimmed and made actually readable as well).
Here's a suggestion, just to get the debate started:
What does everybody else think? If there's a consensus on doing something with the 4 paragraphs I mentioned above, I'd like to get cracking as soon as possible. 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 16:23, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I've started to restructure the article. I ended up cutting out quite a lot more than I added back in - mostly because I found a lot of it irrelevant, poorly written and/or poorly sourced. If anybody thinks I missed something important, here's a link to the last version before the cut: [3] Kiruning ( talk) 03:06, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
I can't find any secondary sources outlining the mentorship practices of SG/SGI, leading me to think it's not actually all that notable. Though I guess we should have a short section outlining the basic principles with a "See more" link to Buddhism#Mentorship (just made that up, but you get my drift) with the occasional primary source to show how Soka Gakkai differs from the traditional Buddhist mentorship, I don't think we should reinstate the entirety of the now removed "Mentor-Disciple Relationship in SGI" section. Thoughts? Kiruning ( talk) 02:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Buddhist-Group-Wants-to-Brand-City-Park-89706857.html http://buddhism.about.com/b/2010/04/02/buying-respect-for-ikeda.htm "SGI has offered to give $180,000 to the city of San Francisco in exchange for naming a gate to Franklin Square Park after SGI President Daisaku Ikeda. The gate would include a plaque to Ikeda's mentors. According to the city's Recreation and Park's Department, $80,000 would be used for construction and landscaping of the gate, and $100,000 would go to the Recreation and Park Department for "general operating support." ... What little local reaction I have seen has been negative, however. President Ikeda has no connection to the park, which makes the proposed dedication of the gate an act of transparent vanity. ... SGI's practice of lavishing large amounts of money to buy honors for Daisaku Ikeda does not speak well for Ikeda, or SGI. And it doesn't make Buddhism look good, either."
Here's something similar in a park in Chicago, though there's no mention whether a large donation preceded the monument: [4] 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 11:38, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
More on Soka Gakkai's finances: [5] it's spooky how many reputable sources have commented on the shadowy nature of the group, yet very little seems to have made it into the Wikipedia article. 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 12:12, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
There is a mistaken understanding among some editors about Wikipedia "Consensus". Consensus is not an agreement between few editors to violate rules and guidelines about the article, about the contents, about the Intro section, about refraining from inflammatory and defaming indications, and so forth. At the moment please consider the 3 following matters:
1/ Perception and Criticism Section is important. The subject of the SGI is highly controversial. Controversy comes from opposing views, opposing perceptions and differing conclusions about the activities or nature of SGI. For this reason Perception and Criticism Section is essential. This will include the perception that SGI is a fascist organization, and will include that it is an NGO in the UN and is acknowledged for working for peace. Neutrality is an essential requirement of Wikipedia and "consensus" to delete some facts altogether - or putting "perception" of some newspapers in the Intro section (where it does not belong)- this is not consensus, but misunderstanding.
2/ While the efforts of editors who brought tables about the "Structure of the Article" - is appreciated, there is no rule that SGI page should follow Catholicism or New Age structured article. Articles do not have to be replicas in structure. The current structure is messy and confusing. If Catholicism includes Wealth and Power section, this does not mean that SGI should follow.
3/ The History section is a presentation of the phases which produced the current SGI, starting from Inception, Development, Expansion and also Independence of SGI from the Priesthood. According to various independent researchers the Separation from the Priesthood is the most important event in the history of SGI and the perspectives and study of such unbiased and impartial university researchers should be include.
The horizon is open for change, but no hurries. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:57, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
When I will edit the article, I will mention on how SGI publications has found their way to Nelson Mandela in prison, when he read some presented to him. And after his release Mandela himself requested a meeting with SGI president Ikeda (1990). This is referrenced in an independant scholar’s book. Mandela's greatness was his maturity over religios hatred. With this in mind, here are Mandela’s words, which I sincerely present to all editors: “No one is born hating another because of...his religion. People learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can learn to love, which comes more naturally to the human heart than the opposite”. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 13:07, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
You’d agree that a Wiki article identifying Islam as ‘linked with terrorism’, or the Catholic Church as ‘based on child abuse’ - would have been described as attempt to discredit and incite hatred. The current article on SGI is an example of this approach: editing motivated by discrediting SGI, and inciting religious hatred.
While impartiality requires that Wikipedia should not be used as an “Advertisment” , it is also logical that articles should not be based on the opposite: namely should not be esited for the purpose of “Negative-Advertisment”. I di not find in Wikipedia policy a refrence to this situation, and please correct me if I am wrong. Editing to discredit is expressed by bringing inflamatory and false accusation - treating these name-calling as if they were facts (fascist militant organisation). Couplled with this defamatory approach is also deleting facts (SGI at the UN and other peace activities), and this is only a quick example, it is not everything that can be said here on this subject.
Using Wikipedia to promote a business creates a Conflict of Interest situation. Editors who are focused on discrediting and atttacking the integrity of an organisation - also create a Conflict of Interest situation, because it becomes evident that the pattern of their interest lies in promoting discrediting image - using Wikipedia article to promote aggressive and defematory text.
In case of SGI, its activities based on peace and harmonious coexistence in society are activities that are supported by universities and peace institiutes world wide. But it is in the interest of some political and religious authorities in Japan or elsewhere to discredit the Soka Gakkai for political gain, and for justifying religious wars. This is because SGI had deprived such authorities from millions of votes (in a constitution-approved democratic process of political voting) and deprived temples from millions of members through declaring spiritual independance from the authority of priests. These are facts behind the strong motivation to attack the integrity of SGI and the integrity of millions of honest and sincere members.
Last year, I have written to Wikipedia Founders on the bias and threats directed at my person, and which I encountered when editing: I wrote to Rick Gates, Richard Stallman and Jimmy Wales, and I received supportive communication from one of them. As one Administrative Editor once commented, Wikipedia is evolving. I think that considering the a policy against Negative-Advertisment - would be truly beneficial to guide against using articles for defamation of honest and sincere people and from inciting hatred and religios or political strife. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Safwan has repeatedly canvassed for mentioning the fact that the SGI is accredited as an NGO at the UN. I've removed these mentions more than once because they weren't properly sourced and given undue weight in the perceptions section, but I'm perfectly willing to discuss if and how the UN connection should be mentioned, and in what context. It is however a highly contentious topic - I read in one source or another (which one, I can unfortunately not recall atm) that Ikeda has been pushing this fact himself to promote the organization's credibility ever since the '80's. I don't mean to be insulting, but with this in mind, it bares to say that Safwan is following the SGI rulebook on how to promote the organization, whether wilfully or not. So, you know, let's proceed with some amount of caution.
Since Safwan himself has so far not been willing (or perhaps, too busy) to present sources demonstrating the notability of the UN connection, I've taken it upon myself to review some of the available literature.
If the above mention makes the connection notable, it's perhaps not in the positive light Safran wants to portray it. The reference is a "cultural weekly" based in Chicago and while the website does look a bit "blog-ish", I don't see any reason it wouldn't clear the bar for being a WP:RS.
This is from 1975, and suggests Ikeda (rather than SGI itsef, but I guess it's hard to separate the two) might end up influencing the UN, but since it's before the (possible) fact, it's really just opinion. It doesn't stand to reason to include, in a Wikipedia article in the year 2013, a source to say "In 1975, an AP journalist theorized that Ikeda was likely to come to have an influence on the UN."
Reviewing these sources, I think a mention does indeed seem appropriate. A one- or two-line mention in the "Organization" section seems like it should do the trick - thoughts? Kiruning ( talk) 13:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Many men and organizations have talked the talk of peace but their actions belie their words. For example, it should be explored SGI's and New Komeito's relationships with Mitsubichi Heavy Industrials, New Komeito's role in the lifting of Japan's arms export ban and its new State Secret's Law, etc. 2602:306:CC5C:D8F9:FD03:F07B:3DA6:C26 ( talk) 08:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Mark R.Rogow
I think we have enough editors working right now to push this article towards GA. Here is a list of Wikipedia:Good article criteria to work towards:
This is a fairly important article to pursue GA for, so good luck! Shii (tock) 17:36, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
The issue is an interesting one but the translation ‘True Main Hall’ is a bit tricky. The original term is ‘Kaidan’ which in literature is normally referred to as ‘Ordination platform’. To be honest I never heard the term ‘True Main Hall’ being used. The term Hondō on the other side is a general term for a temple’s main hall. True is that on a dogmatic level SGI apparently believed that ‘Kosen Rufu’ (Conversion of most of the population to its interpretation of Buddhism) is on its way or has already been achieved in Japan. The priesthood argued that this was not the case. After the demolition of the Shōhondō the Hōandō was apparently on purpose built in a traditional warehouse style. This was to underline the fact that ‘Kosen Rufu’ is still to be full filled. So letting aside the buildings fate the name given to it in Taiseki-ji indicates a shift on the issue of a ‘Kaidan’. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 14:40, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
When was the SGI made the "mother organization" of the Japanese Soka Gakkai? I was hoping to find this info in the Japanese Wikipedia (because it's usually great for years and numbers) but I came up short. Anybody knows? Kiruning ( talk) 02:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
The article was recently semi-protected by User:Amatulic, meaning the article can't be edited without an account. While I don't doubt Amatulic's good intentions, I think this is unnecessary. There have been several constructive edits by "IP's", while the problematic edits are usually by account holders. Most importantly, I don't think the gohonzon picture is taken down enough to warrant protection. In December, it happened once or twice, if my memory serves me right? Kiruning ( talk) 10:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
My rationale for semi-protection is given in the protection log. Anonymous IP addresses and unconfirmed account have repeatedly removed an image from this article on the grounds that it is offensive. So I semi-protected the article. This is the same reason why Muhammad has an indefinite semi-protection on it, with the decision to retain such images being the result of a long and drawn out ArbCom decision.
If there's a consensus that semi-protection is unnecessary, I can remove it. There's also a milder form of protection, usually reserved for biographies of living persons, called "pending changes" in which unconfirmed and anons can still make edits but they don't appear in the article until an editor with "reviewer" status confirms them. In practice, I find this burdensome, but again I am willing to change the protection level if there's a consensus to do so. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 16:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
From the first paragraph: "It has, together with its international offshoot Soka Gakkai International (SGI) been described as "the world's largest Buddhist lay group and America's most diverse", but it has also been quoted as "quasi-fascist", "fascist", "militant", "overzealous" and "authoritarian", especially in the first few decennia following World War II."
From the third paragraph: Further expansion of the movement was led by its third president Daisaku Ikeda, who planted the seed for the organization's international expansion in 1960.[10] While Ikeda has been remarkably successful in moving the group towards mainstream acceptance in some areas, the organization is still widely viewed with suspicion in Japan and grapples with a reputation of being a "brainwashing cult", as well as a cult of personality centered around Ikeda.[2][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18]
Is the lead section overly negative? While I would like to see the first paragraph weighed up by something more positive, I don't personally feel it goes to far in the criticism, as there's heaps of controversies surrounding the group (and as WP:LEAD states, the lead section should mention any major controversies). I do however feel that the juxtaposition in the first paragraph of "large and diverse" and "fascists and militant" doesn't seem entirely natural. The fascist/militant quotes should rather be contrasted with the "humanitarian peace work" SGI supposedly has carried out - but... the rub here is that this is very much connected to Ikeda, rather than SGI itself, and if we go into his figure in the first section, we would have to remodel the third paragraph entirely, and probably bring up the accusations of personality cult already in the first paragraph. Seems easy to mess things up here.
What does everybody else think? Kiruning ( talk) 04:46, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
On reflection, there should probably be some mention of what Soka Gakkai practitioners believe in, in the lead. Not overly long though. What sticks out to me most is the chanting and the promises of this-worldly benefits. What does everybody else think? Kiruning ( talk) 11:57, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Many of quotes in the following statement in the introduction section are taken grossly out of context: "It has, together with its international offshoot Soka Gakkai International (SGI) been described as "the world's largest Buddhist lay group and America's most diverse", but it has also been quoted as "quasi-fascist", "fascist", "militant", "overzealous" and "authoritarian", especially in the first few decennia following World War II." Here are a few examples:
1) "Fascist" from this reference "3: Aruga, Hiroshi. "Sōka Gakkai and Japanese Politics," in Machacek, David and Bryan Wilson, eds, Global Citizens: The Sōka Gakkai Buddhist Movement in the World, Oxford: Oxford University Press, pp. 104-114" Page 104 of the book: “ On the one hand, this “reformist stance” had a refreshing appeal to those citizens who were dissatisfied with the existing order. On the other hand, when this image was combined with an exclusivist religious nature, a large number of people sensed a kind of fascism in the Soka Gakkai. However, when one takes into account the uniquely Japanese traits of the Soka Gakkai, one can see that there was never really a threat that it would move toward fascism."
The author himself clearly is not claiming the Soka Gakkai is "fascist," instead is arguing that such an against such a claim.
2) The "fascist" quote is supposedly also "backed up" by this reference cited. "Seager, Richard Hughes (2006). Encountering the Dharma: Daisaku Ikeda, Soka Gakkai, and the globalization of Buddhist humanism. Berkeley [u.a.]: Univ. of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-24577-8."
“Much of the article consists of testimonies by Gakkai rivals old-line scholars, who together characterized the movement as superficial, pathologically intolerant, and highly materialistic. Makiguchi is not principled but “pugnacious”; strong convictions are “fanatical egotism.” Daimoku is described as a “hypnotic drone” said to mean “I am the Supreme Power.” The main point to be taken-that neither the Japanese nor Ikeda are entirely to be trusted-is made clear in the quote framing the article: “Japanese people either want to be a leader or want to be led. Soka Gakkai guarantees fulfillment for both the shepherd and the sheep…or a Hitler and the hordes.” …The Times intelligently handled Makiguchi, the Gakkai’s ability to address the malaise of the postwar years, and its ongoing electoral successes. It noted political by words then current in the movement such as “neo-socialism,” “a third culture” neither capitalist nor socialist, “global nationalism,” and “Buddhist democracy.” Describing the Gakkai as a “militant society” of lay Buddhists whose overzealous members have occasionally become violent, the Times also dismissed charges that the Gakkai was fascist or even right wing. Its main concern was that should the Gakkai’s presence in the Diet grow, it might “favor a more independent and neutralist course for the United States’s principal ally in the Far East.” Page 207
Again, if anything the author is debunking claims that the group is "fascist" or "militant" not endorsing them. Wandrews73 ( talk) 21:33, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
For US-editors it might be worthwhile to look into the matter of Chartered Schools run on Soka principles. Keyword here seems to be The Renaissance Charter School Catflap08 ( talk) 19:18, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Found the following on Wayback from the Buddha Jones website that was closed presumably by the SGI or their agents: https://web.archive.org/web/20110622024623/http://www.buddhajones.com/diary/406/soka-sneakiness-in-soka-school You will have to dig a little because some of the links are not retained by Wayback. I bet you can find a lot of stuff depending on your determination to dig up the truth. Mark Rogow 01/20/14 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BCB1:3829:FD45:468:F756:D467 ( talk) 01:31, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
Wikipedia articles should portray the truth and factual matters about the subject. I see no reason why the fact of SGI being registered within the United Nations in various committees - why this fact should be deleted, hidden or avoided. Openmindedness and academic honesty would require to record how the SGI as an organisation is regarded world wide and how the UN works with, perceives and considers SGI is a fact that should be part of the whole picture.
I request editors who bulk-delete what they do not "like" to first bring the subject of their "dislike' of facts - on this Talk page. If there is something to change or further ask Wiki-editors for opinion, then this page can deal with such subjects and we can exchange information and come together to a reasonable outcome. Let 'Reason' and wise approach win rather than deleting without reason, without giving a reason or sound argument for the deletion. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 23:46, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I've made a plethora of edits to the article - which I personally think have made it 1) more readable 2) more balanced 3) more adherent to WP:MOS, among other things. Here's a diff link showing the results of my 38 edits: [1]. The intro might read overly negative - I'd like to weigh this up with a reliable source mentioning how Soka Gakkai is acclaimed for its work for peace (and perhaps something else), but I had a hard time finding such a source (I went through some of the sources given in the "Perceptions" (now "Critique") section in hope of finding something but the poor standard led me instead of removing several of them from the article altogether). If anybody has a snappy adjective that could be added up there, please go ahead.
The article is still plagued by poor formatting, unreliable and POV sources, but I think my edits amount to at least a start. Kiruning ( talk) 05:07, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree to Shii. Still a lot of work ahead. I had my own share of edit wars in this article (and others). Good to see that some effort is being done to make the article at least a bit more unbiased.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:50, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I'd welcome positive comments made about the Gakkai in the intro, as I've already mentioned. So do go ahead. Just make sure you use reliable sources and don't fall into the trap of inferring stuff (again, see WP:OR). That Rosa Parks has appeared at an SGI-sponsored event is of course not the same as ascribing to her the view that "SGI is a wonderful organization." 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 11:10, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I added a little paragraph on Shoshinkai. Before the article read as if it always was a question of right or wrong between Nichiren Shoshu and Soka Gakai. Truth is that long before the split some priests and lay believers detested both sides. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 12:49, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I've been reading through WP:CRIT and thinking a little on the topic, I've come to the conclusion that the section now titled "Critiques" (previously "Perceptions") would perhaps best be phased out. I don't mean to delete anything that's noteworthy, but perhaps it should best be included in other parts of the article. Personally, I have something of a pendant for criticism sections and it's usually the first thing I look for in a wiki article because they allow me to cut straight through the bullshit and see just what the fuzz is, but I think the lead section, as it is now, doesn't shy away from the criticism, in a good way. What does everybody else think? 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 13:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
From what I gather, Soka Kyoiku Gakkai was more secular than the organization Toda created after the war. But to what degree was the Kyoiku Gakkai associated with Nichiren Shoshu from the very start (when he wrote that book of his) and how much happened afterwards? The Japanese Wikipedia suggests the Nichiren teachings were in focus from the beginning, but there's no source given: "1930年11月18日、小学校の校長だった牧口常三郎と、戸田城聖ら当時の教育者などが集い、日蓮の仏法精神に基づく教育の実践(教育者の育成)を目的とする団体「創価教育学会」を創立。" If there's any source on the exact involvements with the Shoshu, that'd be great. 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 06:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
New Age | Jehova's Witnesses | Scientology | Druidry | Mormonism | Unitarian Universalism |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
History |
Spirituality | Lifestyle | Reception | Social and political movement |
History | Organization | Beliefs | Practices | Demographics | Sociological analysis | Opposition | Criticism |
Etymology and earlier usage | History | Membership statistics | Beliefs and practices | Organization | Dispute of religion status | Controversies | Celebrities |
Beliefs | Practices | History | Demographics |
Brief history | Theology | Relations to other faiths | Theological divisions |
History | Beliefs | Worship and ritual | Politics | Controversies | Organizations | Number of members | Notable members | Notable congregations |
(comparison of how some other articles on religions/religious groups are structured. New Age is rated a "good article", the others aren't)
What's the ideal structure of the article? How many main sections do we want? I think that there's far too many at the moment. "Sources of beliefs and world view", "practice and activites", "Teachings and philosophy", "Mentor-Disciple Relationship in SGI" - these should at the very most be two different sections, to my mind (and be seriously trimmed and made actually readable as well).
Here's a suggestion, just to get the debate started:
What does everybody else think? If there's a consensus on doing something with the 4 paragraphs I mentioned above, I'd like to get cracking as soon as possible. 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 16:23, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I've started to restructure the article. I ended up cutting out quite a lot more than I added back in - mostly because I found a lot of it irrelevant, poorly written and/or poorly sourced. If anybody thinks I missed something important, here's a link to the last version before the cut: [3] Kiruning ( talk) 03:06, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
I can't find any secondary sources outlining the mentorship practices of SG/SGI, leading me to think it's not actually all that notable. Though I guess we should have a short section outlining the basic principles with a "See more" link to Buddhism#Mentorship (just made that up, but you get my drift) with the occasional primary source to show how Soka Gakkai differs from the traditional Buddhist mentorship, I don't think we should reinstate the entirety of the now removed "Mentor-Disciple Relationship in SGI" section. Thoughts? Kiruning ( talk) 02:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Buddhist-Group-Wants-to-Brand-City-Park-89706857.html http://buddhism.about.com/b/2010/04/02/buying-respect-for-ikeda.htm "SGI has offered to give $180,000 to the city of San Francisco in exchange for naming a gate to Franklin Square Park after SGI President Daisaku Ikeda. The gate would include a plaque to Ikeda's mentors. According to the city's Recreation and Park's Department, $80,000 would be used for construction and landscaping of the gate, and $100,000 would go to the Recreation and Park Department for "general operating support." ... What little local reaction I have seen has been negative, however. President Ikeda has no connection to the park, which makes the proposed dedication of the gate an act of transparent vanity. ... SGI's practice of lavishing large amounts of money to buy honors for Daisaku Ikeda does not speak well for Ikeda, or SGI. And it doesn't make Buddhism look good, either."
Here's something similar in a park in Chicago, though there's no mention whether a large donation preceded the monument: [4] 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 11:38, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
More on Soka Gakkai's finances: [5] it's spooky how many reputable sources have commented on the shadowy nature of the group, yet very little seems to have made it into the Wikipedia article. 126.25.72.25 ( talk) 12:12, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
There is a mistaken understanding among some editors about Wikipedia "Consensus". Consensus is not an agreement between few editors to violate rules and guidelines about the article, about the contents, about the Intro section, about refraining from inflammatory and defaming indications, and so forth. At the moment please consider the 3 following matters:
1/ Perception and Criticism Section is important. The subject of the SGI is highly controversial. Controversy comes from opposing views, opposing perceptions and differing conclusions about the activities or nature of SGI. For this reason Perception and Criticism Section is essential. This will include the perception that SGI is a fascist organization, and will include that it is an NGO in the UN and is acknowledged for working for peace. Neutrality is an essential requirement of Wikipedia and "consensus" to delete some facts altogether - or putting "perception" of some newspapers in the Intro section (where it does not belong)- this is not consensus, but misunderstanding.
2/ While the efforts of editors who brought tables about the "Structure of the Article" - is appreciated, there is no rule that SGI page should follow Catholicism or New Age structured article. Articles do not have to be replicas in structure. The current structure is messy and confusing. If Catholicism includes Wealth and Power section, this does not mean that SGI should follow.
3/ The History section is a presentation of the phases which produced the current SGI, starting from Inception, Development, Expansion and also Independence of SGI from the Priesthood. According to various independent researchers the Separation from the Priesthood is the most important event in the history of SGI and the perspectives and study of such unbiased and impartial university researchers should be include.
The horizon is open for change, but no hurries. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:57, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
When I will edit the article, I will mention on how SGI publications has found their way to Nelson Mandela in prison, when he read some presented to him. And after his release Mandela himself requested a meeting with SGI president Ikeda (1990). This is referrenced in an independant scholar’s book. Mandela's greatness was his maturity over religios hatred. With this in mind, here are Mandela’s words, which I sincerely present to all editors: “No one is born hating another because of...his religion. People learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can learn to love, which comes more naturally to the human heart than the opposite”. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 13:07, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
You’d agree that a Wiki article identifying Islam as ‘linked with terrorism’, or the Catholic Church as ‘based on child abuse’ - would have been described as attempt to discredit and incite hatred. The current article on SGI is an example of this approach: editing motivated by discrediting SGI, and inciting religious hatred.
While impartiality requires that Wikipedia should not be used as an “Advertisment” , it is also logical that articles should not be based on the opposite: namely should not be esited for the purpose of “Negative-Advertisment”. I di not find in Wikipedia policy a refrence to this situation, and please correct me if I am wrong. Editing to discredit is expressed by bringing inflamatory and false accusation - treating these name-calling as if they were facts (fascist militant organisation). Couplled with this defamatory approach is also deleting facts (SGI at the UN and other peace activities), and this is only a quick example, it is not everything that can be said here on this subject.
Using Wikipedia to promote a business creates a Conflict of Interest situation. Editors who are focused on discrediting and atttacking the integrity of an organisation - also create a Conflict of Interest situation, because it becomes evident that the pattern of their interest lies in promoting discrediting image - using Wikipedia article to promote aggressive and defematory text.
In case of SGI, its activities based on peace and harmonious coexistence in society are activities that are supported by universities and peace institiutes world wide. But it is in the interest of some political and religious authorities in Japan or elsewhere to discredit the Soka Gakkai for political gain, and for justifying religious wars. This is because SGI had deprived such authorities from millions of votes (in a constitution-approved democratic process of political voting) and deprived temples from millions of members through declaring spiritual independance from the authority of priests. These are facts behind the strong motivation to attack the integrity of SGI and the integrity of millions of honest and sincere members.
Last year, I have written to Wikipedia Founders on the bias and threats directed at my person, and which I encountered when editing: I wrote to Rick Gates, Richard Stallman and Jimmy Wales, and I received supportive communication from one of them. As one Administrative Editor once commented, Wikipedia is evolving. I think that considering the a policy against Negative-Advertisment - would be truly beneficial to guide against using articles for defamation of honest and sincere people and from inciting hatred and religios or political strife. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Safwan has repeatedly canvassed for mentioning the fact that the SGI is accredited as an NGO at the UN. I've removed these mentions more than once because they weren't properly sourced and given undue weight in the perceptions section, but I'm perfectly willing to discuss if and how the UN connection should be mentioned, and in what context. It is however a highly contentious topic - I read in one source or another (which one, I can unfortunately not recall atm) that Ikeda has been pushing this fact himself to promote the organization's credibility ever since the '80's. I don't mean to be insulting, but with this in mind, it bares to say that Safwan is following the SGI rulebook on how to promote the organization, whether wilfully or not. So, you know, let's proceed with some amount of caution.
Since Safwan himself has so far not been willing (or perhaps, too busy) to present sources demonstrating the notability of the UN connection, I've taken it upon myself to review some of the available literature.
If the above mention makes the connection notable, it's perhaps not in the positive light Safran wants to portray it. The reference is a "cultural weekly" based in Chicago and while the website does look a bit "blog-ish", I don't see any reason it wouldn't clear the bar for being a WP:RS.
This is from 1975, and suggests Ikeda (rather than SGI itsef, but I guess it's hard to separate the two) might end up influencing the UN, but since it's before the (possible) fact, it's really just opinion. It doesn't stand to reason to include, in a Wikipedia article in the year 2013, a source to say "In 1975, an AP journalist theorized that Ikeda was likely to come to have an influence on the UN."
Reviewing these sources, I think a mention does indeed seem appropriate. A one- or two-line mention in the "Organization" section seems like it should do the trick - thoughts? Kiruning ( talk) 13:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Many men and organizations have talked the talk of peace but their actions belie their words. For example, it should be explored SGI's and New Komeito's relationships with Mitsubichi Heavy Industrials, New Komeito's role in the lifting of Japan's arms export ban and its new State Secret's Law, etc. 2602:306:CC5C:D8F9:FD03:F07B:3DA6:C26 ( talk) 08:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Mark R.Rogow
I think we have enough editors working right now to push this article towards GA. Here is a list of Wikipedia:Good article criteria to work towards:
This is a fairly important article to pursue GA for, so good luck! Shii (tock) 17:36, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
The issue is an interesting one but the translation ‘True Main Hall’ is a bit tricky. The original term is ‘Kaidan’ which in literature is normally referred to as ‘Ordination platform’. To be honest I never heard the term ‘True Main Hall’ being used. The term Hondō on the other side is a general term for a temple’s main hall. True is that on a dogmatic level SGI apparently believed that ‘Kosen Rufu’ (Conversion of most of the population to its interpretation of Buddhism) is on its way or has already been achieved in Japan. The priesthood argued that this was not the case. After the demolition of the Shōhondō the Hōandō was apparently on purpose built in a traditional warehouse style. This was to underline the fact that ‘Kosen Rufu’ is still to be full filled. So letting aside the buildings fate the name given to it in Taiseki-ji indicates a shift on the issue of a ‘Kaidan’. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 14:40, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
When was the SGI made the "mother organization" of the Japanese Soka Gakkai? I was hoping to find this info in the Japanese Wikipedia (because it's usually great for years and numbers) but I came up short. Anybody knows? Kiruning ( talk) 02:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
The article was recently semi-protected by User:Amatulic, meaning the article can't be edited without an account. While I don't doubt Amatulic's good intentions, I think this is unnecessary. There have been several constructive edits by "IP's", while the problematic edits are usually by account holders. Most importantly, I don't think the gohonzon picture is taken down enough to warrant protection. In December, it happened once or twice, if my memory serves me right? Kiruning ( talk) 10:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
My rationale for semi-protection is given in the protection log. Anonymous IP addresses and unconfirmed account have repeatedly removed an image from this article on the grounds that it is offensive. So I semi-protected the article. This is the same reason why Muhammad has an indefinite semi-protection on it, with the decision to retain such images being the result of a long and drawn out ArbCom decision.
If there's a consensus that semi-protection is unnecessary, I can remove it. There's also a milder form of protection, usually reserved for biographies of living persons, called "pending changes" in which unconfirmed and anons can still make edits but they don't appear in the article until an editor with "reviewer" status confirms them. In practice, I find this burdensome, but again I am willing to change the protection level if there's a consensus to do so. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 16:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
From the first paragraph: "It has, together with its international offshoot Soka Gakkai International (SGI) been described as "the world's largest Buddhist lay group and America's most diverse", but it has also been quoted as "quasi-fascist", "fascist", "militant", "overzealous" and "authoritarian", especially in the first few decennia following World War II."
From the third paragraph: Further expansion of the movement was led by its third president Daisaku Ikeda, who planted the seed for the organization's international expansion in 1960.[10] While Ikeda has been remarkably successful in moving the group towards mainstream acceptance in some areas, the organization is still widely viewed with suspicion in Japan and grapples with a reputation of being a "brainwashing cult", as well as a cult of personality centered around Ikeda.[2][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18]
Is the lead section overly negative? While I would like to see the first paragraph weighed up by something more positive, I don't personally feel it goes to far in the criticism, as there's heaps of controversies surrounding the group (and as WP:LEAD states, the lead section should mention any major controversies). I do however feel that the juxtaposition in the first paragraph of "large and diverse" and "fascists and militant" doesn't seem entirely natural. The fascist/militant quotes should rather be contrasted with the "humanitarian peace work" SGI supposedly has carried out - but... the rub here is that this is very much connected to Ikeda, rather than SGI itself, and if we go into his figure in the first section, we would have to remodel the third paragraph entirely, and probably bring up the accusations of personality cult already in the first paragraph. Seems easy to mess things up here.
What does everybody else think? Kiruning ( talk) 04:46, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
On reflection, there should probably be some mention of what Soka Gakkai practitioners believe in, in the lead. Not overly long though. What sticks out to me most is the chanting and the promises of this-worldly benefits. What does everybody else think? Kiruning ( talk) 11:57, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Many of quotes in the following statement in the introduction section are taken grossly out of context: "It has, together with its international offshoot Soka Gakkai International (SGI) been described as "the world's largest Buddhist lay group and America's most diverse", but it has also been quoted as "quasi-fascist", "fascist", "militant", "overzealous" and "authoritarian", especially in the first few decennia following World War II." Here are a few examples:
1) "Fascist" from this reference "3: Aruga, Hiroshi. "Sōka Gakkai and Japanese Politics," in Machacek, David and Bryan Wilson, eds, Global Citizens: The Sōka Gakkai Buddhist Movement in the World, Oxford: Oxford University Press, pp. 104-114" Page 104 of the book: “ On the one hand, this “reformist stance” had a refreshing appeal to those citizens who were dissatisfied with the existing order. On the other hand, when this image was combined with an exclusivist religious nature, a large number of people sensed a kind of fascism in the Soka Gakkai. However, when one takes into account the uniquely Japanese traits of the Soka Gakkai, one can see that there was never really a threat that it would move toward fascism."
The author himself clearly is not claiming the Soka Gakkai is "fascist," instead is arguing that such an against such a claim.
2) The "fascist" quote is supposedly also "backed up" by this reference cited. "Seager, Richard Hughes (2006). Encountering the Dharma: Daisaku Ikeda, Soka Gakkai, and the globalization of Buddhist humanism. Berkeley [u.a.]: Univ. of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-24577-8."
“Much of the article consists of testimonies by Gakkai rivals old-line scholars, who together characterized the movement as superficial, pathologically intolerant, and highly materialistic. Makiguchi is not principled but “pugnacious”; strong convictions are “fanatical egotism.” Daimoku is described as a “hypnotic drone” said to mean “I am the Supreme Power.” The main point to be taken-that neither the Japanese nor Ikeda are entirely to be trusted-is made clear in the quote framing the article: “Japanese people either want to be a leader or want to be led. Soka Gakkai guarantees fulfillment for both the shepherd and the sheep…or a Hitler and the hordes.” …The Times intelligently handled Makiguchi, the Gakkai’s ability to address the malaise of the postwar years, and its ongoing electoral successes. It noted political by words then current in the movement such as “neo-socialism,” “a third culture” neither capitalist nor socialist, “global nationalism,” and “Buddhist democracy.” Describing the Gakkai as a “militant society” of lay Buddhists whose overzealous members have occasionally become violent, the Times also dismissed charges that the Gakkai was fascist or even right wing. Its main concern was that should the Gakkai’s presence in the Diet grow, it might “favor a more independent and neutralist course for the United States’s principal ally in the Far East.” Page 207
Again, if anything the author is debunking claims that the group is "fascist" or "militant" not endorsing them. Wandrews73 ( talk) 21:33, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
For US-editors it might be worthwhile to look into the matter of Chartered Schools run on Soka principles. Keyword here seems to be The Renaissance Charter School Catflap08 ( talk) 19:18, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Found the following on Wayback from the Buddha Jones website that was closed presumably by the SGI or their agents: https://web.archive.org/web/20110622024623/http://www.buddhajones.com/diary/406/soka-sneakiness-in-soka-school You will have to dig a little because some of the links are not retained by Wayback. I bet you can find a lot of stuff depending on your determination to dig up the truth. Mark Rogow 01/20/14 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BCB1:3829:FD45:468:F756:D467 ( talk) 01:31, 21 January 2014 (UTC)