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The Article’s section “Perception and Criticism” lacked any mention of how acknowledged Academia and Human Rights Movements perceive SGI.
The previously mentioned view of the United Nations lacked United Nations sources of reference, which I now included. Perception of SGI movement in society, schools and universities is now briefly mentioned. I say "briefly" because the list of contents and sources is relatively big. Only few from the academia including Nobel Prize Recipients - who shared activities and talks in SGI centers – are mentioned here as an indication.
There is a reason why I am stressing here on that 'only a few of a long list of the Academia' are mentioned. To explain further: I did not include support to SGI movement by Nelson Mandela, Rene Huygh (art historian), Aurelio Pecceci (Club of Rome), Bryan Wilson (Oxford sociologist), Johan Galtung (Norwegian peace activist), and twice recipient of Nobel Prize Linus Pauling, and others. This means that there is much "more than just ONE" example of related information.
If a certain perception of SGI is consistent and repeating (among many world figures) then an Encyclopedia would give it a credit.
But - in contrast - here in the same Section, we find an astonishingly obscure and rumor-based information expressed in the following sentence:
'There has been controversy about the degree of religious tolerance[72] and proselytizing[73][74] [75][76] practiced by some of Sōka Gakkai's members.[77]'
This sentence is based on unconfirmed or untruthful information and – literally – on rumors. Please judge for yourself: in a so called Reliable Source: http://riverdalepress.blogspot.de/2009/03/ps-24-parents-call-for-principals.html and in a tabloid fashion, it is mentioned that someone demanded resignation of an SGI teacher after “…weeks of rumors that he crossed the line between church and state with Buddhist prayer meetings”.
Wikipedia should not include fabricated information against anyone, such as this “rumor’. Nor it is a professional academic approach to put a plainly misleading information about 'religious intolerance' depending on ONE unreliable claim, a claim lacking elementary merit - and which was kicked out of court twice.
Let’s be open minded and impartial: any intelligent editor would agree that: if there is an element of truth (in that disputed sentence) - then there should be more than "just ONE shaky, fabrication-based" example- to mention as a “proof” of SGI “controversy”.
Lack of ANY true evidence (and using only ONE baseless information) does not qualify the sentence to be of any merit. It is not detrimental to SGI to have criticism. On the contrary: Aum cult, nationalist fanatics extremists and others - strongly criticised SGI and they have their right to expression. But it is supportive to Wikipedia to include baseless information relying on rumors (as self-admitted by the source providing that "information"). SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
"Peace movements" is a very broad term. I would like a definition of peace movement. The Nichiren Shoshu, Nichiren Shu, and Kempon Hokke consider themselves peace movements, as do many religious organizations. Having "Peace" in an organizations description of itself, too doesn't necessarily mean that they are in fact a peace movement. Some peace movements are better judged by their actions than their words. Before I open myself up for censor, I would like an answer to this question. As the lay representative of the Kempon Hokke in the United States, an official representative, I have some things about the nature of the SGI "peace movement" that I would like to share with the readers. -- Mark Rogow — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkRogow ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
2602:304:595F:78D9:3872:78C6:BEFE:9EC1 ( talk) 05:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be deliberately steering clear of any subjects that could reflect poorly on Sōka Gakkai. If you look at the Japanese page, it lists various controversies surrounding the sect, including criminal activities, assaults on free speech, attempts of mind control, etc. By contrast, the "criticisms" section on the English page only includes positive information about the sect. At the moment, the partiality of this article is highly questionable, and at the very least it would benefit from significant inclusions from the Japanese article. Saifaa ( talk) 21:04, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Agreed with Safwan. This article is not supposed to have an anti-SGI POV. It should be NPOV. As it stands, it is at least doing a half decent job at that. However, someone has been editing it to remove completely factual information about Jōsei Toda's reign which I sourced to several different academic publications. If he wants to remove this information again he should find a really good source refuting the academics. If it's in Japanese, I can read it. Shii (tock) 02:38, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Would documented associations and partnerships, such as SGI's partnership with the Mitsubishi corporation, Japan's largest defense contractor, that put into question SGI's true committment to peace and non-violence, be acceptable to the editors? -- Mark Rogow 2/3/13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkRogow ( talk • contribs) 04:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
It is general knowledge that SGI and Mitsubishi are partners in the largest cemetary business in Japan. It is also general knowledge that Mitsubishi is Japan's largest defense contractor. Relaying factual information is hardly a plain smear tactic. Lying does not advance the cause of the Soka nation, or does it? -- Mark Rogow
The ‘History’ section of the article is not up to the level of Encyclopedia. It is basically a POV, not an impartial presentation of facts. The text contains unreasonable statements such as that Makiguchi wanted to “commanded power over” Shoshu sect, or that Toda rode “a white horse ...to conquer religions ...” etc... It is only logical that when one writes about the foundation of an organisation, then the basic aims of that organisation and its basic concepts - should be mentioned. But this - and other important issues - are currently lacking.
In any intelligent presentation you should expect the:” one the other hand...” - but not in the current article. I think the History section should start from phases, such as Foundation, Development, Expansion ... etc while starting from names of individuals (unknown to many new readers) does not reflect a skillful presentation. The article is about an Organisation (and its history), not about names of particular individuals. I invite to sharing views. To improve the article, now the History section must be rasied to an academic level of honest presentation. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 09:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I am in the process of raising the arbitrary editing of Shii, (see his/her last comment above) and requesting assistance from WP editors on how to stop his/her action of vandalism. One of the issues is a sentence of dispute - found on page 142 from the source 11 in the text (being Encountering the Dharma book). The book mentions that under Toda, Nichiren Gosho was published and taught in study calsses. Ishii did not like this sentence so he deleted it.
/1/ Upon asking Ishii (above) on why he/she deleted the sentence, the answer was that the publication of Gosho materials were only for "top leaders". This is a POV, and above that an unreasobnable claim by Shii, because "publication" by definition means making available for the public, and the gakkai books are all sold in stores, and available openly in libraries etc...
/2/ Ishii's own interpretations (of the History of SG) is lacking logic. For example ishii thinks that : "Makiguchi insisted, against the will of Shōshū leadership, that Shōshū teachings were ultimate truth.." - implying that Shoshu did not believe that their teachings are true!!! There are various other inconsistencies. This level of editing makes the article below the level of even primary school assignment.
I will revist the whole section and improve the presentation of History in an academicly written form.
/3/ It is also to be noted that Ishii does not respect requests for indicating the citation from where he/she made enteries, and delets citation needed requests without answering the challemge.
I request WP Editor(s) for assistance as impartial observers in the disputed matters which Ishii is unreasonably introducing to WP page. 01:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I receive your abovementioned answer, Shii, saying that you “have no idea..” - as an invitation for me to explain.
Thank you for letting me show you some of your mistakes. The first of your mistakes is your statement that “there is no ‘on the other hand’ ” in regard to presenting information. This is against the freedom of expression and against WP Guidelines. WP is not your private property. You haven’t retracted yet your statement of refusal to have the “on the other hand” statements presented to readers from both or variety of perspectives This is a "back to the Middle Ages" tendency of suppression and fear of openness in presenting all perspectives. And it is a serious incident: an incident of one editor voicing restrictions (one-sided vision) on another editor in regard to presenting information. This is a serious matter of general nature: a matter concerning attitude of editors towards others - and it concerns not only me, but all others. It is still unresolved.
There are various issues with your editing of History section. But i’ll focus on 3 points.
/1/ This article is not about Nichiren Shoshu sect. But the text introduces Makiguchi and Toda as essentially being believers in a “militant” sect. This is a brain-washing tendency to mislead readers about SGI Founders from the start. It is a "whisper" to readers that the origin of the SG is beliefof its founders in a militant thinking sect. Who is ‘militant’ is a POV, Shii. Some argue that the Shinto are the "militant" in a war that destroyed Japan and millions of families in many countries. Who can possibly deny it?
/2/ You have given yourself the right to delete editing without valid reason. You deleted the following:
"Toda made it possible for the whole public to access Nichiren teachings by publishing Gosho Zenshu : "For the first time in our 700 years history, the perfect collection of Nichiren daishonin's writings has been published by the Soka Gakkai.""
To justify this vandalism, you mentioned that you think that the publication of Gosho was only for “top leaders”. You “assume” that “publishing” is not for the public - and assume that it was for “top leaders”. WP does not accept this level of self-satisfied assumption in editing and defying commonsense in deforming the word "publish' .
That was just one part of vandalism, bcause additionally you deleted this : " Nichiren Gosho and the ten worlds are central to Gakkai philosophy which is still taught in graded classes first developed in Japan in the '50s under Toda.[9]. This statement is from a source which was already used in the text, and you delete it just because it does not fit with your definition that “ publishing was not for all people”. Proof to WP Editors: the deleted text is found in old revision of this page, as edited by SafwanZabalawi (talk | contribs) at 23:43, 18 March 2013
/3/ In a History of over 20 years of struggle of Soka Kyoiku Gakkai - you mentioned just one alleged story of interpreting someone’s death as being of “divine punishment”. This is a proof of the poverty of the text and its low academic quality overlooking remarkable achievements of introducing women (who were considered as second category creatures by the oppressive society)- to educational meetings, and of publishing philosophical works and principles of education (some are taught in Universities now), and others activities. But that questionable story (about the ‘divine punishment’) was immediately followed in your text by : arresting Makiguchi. The implication of possible link between the story and the arrest - this false implication was insetrted in the text. I will work to clarify the truth and in time, I will publish on WP an image of the official charges against Makiguchi and his words of opposition to Emperor worship during interrogation.
It is accepted world wide that academic honesty requires clarity, non-bias and respect for the right of others to present a balanced and mature text. I honestly believe that WP a property of all ordinary people who expect its text to be mature, non-biased and meaningful. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 10:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request ( ): |
In this complex matter, it is hard to offer a 3rd opinion on the specifics. It would help if you could ask about 1 very specific issue at a time - for example, "Should X change to Y or not (for z reasons, see r references). If you can pose a question in that format, people could offer a 3rd opinion. It may need you to ask several times; that's fine. Please, ask one thing at once, otherwise we can't cope :-)
If we can discuss one specific issue, and sort that out - we could move on to the next. I will remove the 3O request for now; please, add a more specific request if it'll help resolve things. Thanks. 88.104.27.2 ( talk) 22:15, 22 March 2013 (UTC) |
SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 09:35, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
<moved the rest to the section below>
Hi, SafwanZabalawi. To try and make things clearer, please forgive me splitting the rest of your message into a new section below - where I hope it can be discussed. I note your comments about 'vandalism' but please, let's move forwards and discuss the content, not the person. You think those 2 quotes should be included. Let's see if the other user (or anyone else) can give reasons for not including the quote.
I hope that you don't mind me structuring the discussion this way; I think it's more likely to get resolution.
I'd give it several days; preferably a week. If nobody objects, add the quotes. That way, if they're removed again, you could just revert and refer to the discussion.
If it's disputed, feel free to poke 3O again. 88.104.27.2 ( talk) 21:16, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
The subject was about Toda making publications of books available to members. On 18 March I entered the following:
"Toda made it possible for the whole public to access Nichiren teachings by publishing Gosho Zenshu : "For the first time in our 700 years history, the perfect collection of Nichiren daishonin's writings has been published by the Soka Gakkai."[8]. and: " Nichiren Gosho and the ten worlds are central to Gakkai philosophy which is still taught in graded classes first developed in Japan in the '50s under Toda.[9].
8. ^ The Human Revolution, book 1, vol 6 page 723, World Tribune Press, ISBN 0-915678-77-2
9. ^ Encountering the Dharma, Richard Hughes Seager, page 142, University of California Press, ISBN 978-0-520-24577-8
There was no reason to delete these relevant and verifiable quotes - other than vandalism. I have refrained from using this word (of vandalism) for many days continually inviting Shii to respect WP guildelines and retract his unjustified action, but he/she refused. I request a third party's opinion on whether I have the right to include the above mentioned quotes or not. Regards. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 09:35, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
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This is getting ridiculous. I already answered Safwan's questions to the extent any reasonable person would need about two pages above here. I have an academic source saying A, he has a religious source saying A-prime; it's not a contradiction of A and is from a weaker source, so I deleted it as a waste of space. Since then he's just been spouting nonsense. I don't enjoy wasting my time coddling cranks. Shii (tock) 12:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC) |
off topic
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This whole section of 'TWO QUOTATIONS' was formulated by an unknown editor - in a way which was off topic.
The unknown editor used my words at the start of the section here, but then shifted the subject to an invalid discussion and unnecessary clogging of this page.
Nevertheless Shii asked (in its last entry) a valid question. The question asked was not off topic.
It was a question about what do I mean by improving the article. I will answer it in the last section on this current page. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 23:59, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
First, I am inviting you, Shii, to a mature and intelligent talk to improve the article. You can present your view without shouting: “YOUR POV is that several”... – Capital letters and bold characters are forms of expressing excessive engagement or even emotionalism, and there is no need for that. Please consider that the subject here is the article. It is not what you 'think that I think’. When you define my point of view as so and so..., you are putting only your imagination into this Talk page.
/a/ I’m not disputing the “reliable sources” you mentioned at all. I’m questioning your understanding of what was written in the sources you mention. I want to verify the truth in what the text attributes to the source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability
For example, you interpreted Toda’s publishing of books as publishing for 'Top Leaders' only, saying (in a previous talk) that “It appears in the citation I gave which you have repeatedly ignored”. But what you call “citation” is incorrect. Editing does not mean inserting imagined interpretation. You failed to support your claim (that publishing was only for top leaders) by any precise quote.
Another proof of your vandalism is the following: deleting also the following quote simply because you don’t like it:
" Nichiren Gosho and the ten worlds are central to Gakkai philosophy which is still taught in graded classes first developed in Japan in the '50s under Toda”. This quote does not appear in the article now, why?
The 2 quotes I am here referring to are from reliable sources (and already used in the article) but both quotes were unreasonably deleted. Academic honesty requires to impartially acknowledge presented quotes. You are openly violating WP rules.
/b/ Encyclopedia is different from story-telling allegation. For ex. you bring a story that: In 1943, a Tokyo member of the Soka Kyoiku Gakkai reportedly told a non-member that his daughter had died as punishment for not converting to Nichiren Shoshu. Well, even assuming that this occurred, it has no bearing on the whole organisation - and generalizing its background on all SKG and leadership is a fallacy, and it is called a Fallacy of Sweeping Generalization:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/
/c/ Again, I had to remind you that “This article is not about Nichiren Shoshu sect." however your answer was: “What do you think Soka Gakkai is?” If you fail to understand the difference between the two, you fail to be qualified to edit this article. In fact your editing is lacking even commonsense, look at this:
“Makiguchi insisted, against the will of Shōshū leadership, that Shōshū teachings were ultimate truth” – so you are saying that Shoshu priests did not believe that their own teachings represent ultimate truth, and did not want Makiguchi to say that Shoshu teachings are ultimate truth but he "insisted"! What a nonsense you are bringing to Wikipedia article! And who cares what Shoshu priests said or did not, this article is not about Shoshu. Makiguchi was not arrested because he was a Shoshu believer, and bringing Shoshu here to the reader of the WP article is putting confusion and nonsense on WP article.
As for what Makiguchi truly said I will quote later from the record of interrogation. The official charges of the military police against him will be image published to clarify the truth.
Thank you for an enjoyable exercise through which I can develop a wider capacity and I invite you to cooperate to improve the article with factual information. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:39, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding your non sequitur of the fallacy of sweeping generalizations, the Bible of Shakubuku edited by Daisaku Ikeda was published for the "benefit" of the entire membership. It makes many assertions of the punishment of those who practice a faith other than the Nichiren Shoshu Soka Gakkai, ie: "The family which believes in the so-called Nichiren-shu will have children who have deformities, mental retardation or madness."(page 321, The Bible of Shakubuku). This was a core teaching of the Soka Gakkai from at least the early 1950s and probably from its inception. It was a core teaching of the Soka Gakkai, not an isolated teaching of one renegade SGI member. Mark Rogow 04/21/13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:D6C9:792A:B601:F773:CBFD ( talk) 00:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you Shii for referring to what do I mean by improving the article. I have respect to you and to your work. You'd agree though that neither you nor myself - is the "ultimate perfect" editor in the world. We share information that we find in sources, and we can expand our mind.
There are many elements which contribute to the History of anything. The History of the SG was never determined by Nichiren Shoshu, therefore the focus is not Shoshu. They have their page. You may say that a relationship between the two existed, OK - but that was not the determining element in SG history - and evidently the two are quiet separate (even that some – but not all - doctrinal teachings are common).
If the History section does not reflect this fact, then it is not the History section of the subject article.
One of the utterly confusing for reader - information was that Makiguchi insisted that Shoshu beliefs are the truth ‘despite Shoshu disagreeing with him’ !!! This is just unreasonable and confusing, and it is after all irrelevant. It is not true that Makiguchi was arrested because of his beliefs in Shoshu. What Makiguchi said during interrogation must be focused on the charges (basically of rejection of Emperor worship), not Shoshu’s views about his views…etc.
Another thing. Of about 3000 SKG member in 1943 you mentioned that one member told a non member that ‘divine punishment’ happens! Any academic work generalizing this questionable info to portray similarly thousands of others – any student’s editing would be dismissed as propaganda weakening the article. I have disagreement about these two entries in your editing – they make the quality of the text messy, confused and biased. Readers need clarity and general flow of historical events, not tabloid confusing presentation.
How to arrive to the best editing? If we tell readers that someone said something – and give a source as a reference, then the question arises: How accurate is our interpretation to what someone said. To be impartial and honestly bring the correct information, the best way is to present traceable quotes – not disputed interpretation. My coming up editing will focus on quotes from reliable sources, not my interpretation.
Lastly, Shii, please understand that History (of any organization) flows in Phases (not in persons). History is not about Makiguchi Toda Ikeda. We are here about history of an organization, which went into 3 stages of Foundation (pre war), Development (post war), and finally expansion (Ikeda’s phase). Of course we still mention the 3 founders but in their time-phases. I think you agree on this clear and meaningful presentation of History. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
“In 1952, the Justice Department intervened in the most severe cases, forcing Toda to end the use of assault and violence during shakubuku.[18]”
It is obvious that 'History' of any organisation starts with its inception or Foundation phase, then its Development in time and also further stages. Following this presentation, for the purpose of clarity, I renamed the phases of History section (not by names of individuals) but by the historical stages of the organisation (keeping the individula's names and photos as they are).
In academic presentation it is important to exclude emotionalism and personal accusative views. For example describing Nichiren Shoshu as “militant” is a judgement - while the proper and correct designation is “orthodox” sect of Nichiren Buddhism. The word ‘Orthodox’ is derived from the Japanese name itself and is not an external or personal judgement. POV are not allowed in WP articles. For clarifying, I would like here to focus more on this subject to exclude any tendency of name-calling or judgements by editors. The reason is that this matter (of calling someone militant) was raised on this Talk page but without agreement of editors (to use impartial descriptions) - let me give here an example. For example: in Islam, the Shia branch is considered within the ‘orthodox’ line of Islam - but Shia sects are not necessarily terrorists or militant, and other non-Shia groups, although not orthodox - are militant and even terrorists. We may not like Nichiren Shoshu, but for honesty in description of the sect, the word Orthodox is the proper designition.
In any case, this WP article is not about Nichiren Shoshu. It is about Soka Kyoiku Gakkai and relevant mention of Nichiren shoshu should -logically- be within the focus on SKG, the title of the article.
The previous text lacked a very importnat presentation from the start - to inform readers about what is the meaning of the tiltle itself: the 'So' & 'Ka' - components of SokaKG, and what was the vision of its founder about Value Creation. Few quotes were added to fill the gap.
Quotes from RS are indication of the honesty in presenting the text without personal interpretations or additions of POV.
Concrete quotes ensure the reader of reading exactly what a source states - without false addition or personal interpretation. Citations are fine when they reflect the truth. But highly disputable (or even wrong) citations are a big problem but which can be avoided simply by straightforward quotes without unnecessary additions.
Because of the complexity of the subject of History section, I think the best way is to address the topic a step after another, a stage by stage. Further improvements of the phases of Development and Expansion will follow, after considerable attention to RS and truthful quotes. I believe this adds to the quality of WP article. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 12:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
May I suggest the dissertation by Levi Mclaughlin, Dominating Tradition Soka Gakkai and the Creation of History: https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/12949/1/MQ45445.pdf Mark Rogow 04/21/13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:D6C9:792A:B601:F773:CBFD ( talk) 00:20, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
It is below any standard of editing to use WP for an utterly false views. That was your propaganda about the military government in Japan during the II World War having ‘commitment to religious freedom’: “This conflicted with the government's commitment to religious freedom.[24]” Describing a fashist government as having commitment to religious freedom - will not be allowed. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia would have been ridiculed world wide if on one of its articles an editor stated that the military government in Nazi Germany was “committed to religious freedom”. This would have been even an insult to Jews and others. Yet, an editor inserted in the Foundation section of this article the following;
“Makiguchi believed that "Japan would only prosper once the state recognized Nichiren's teachings as the only correct faith." [19'].This conflicted with the government's commitment to religious freedom.[20]
To clarify what government we are speaking about: it is the military government in Japan during the II W W. It is the same government which in “The 1940 Religion Organisation Law gave the state control over religions and allowed it to use religions to enhance the war efforts” Prof.Daniel Metraux, and also:
“Makiguchi defied the wartime government policy of religious control, which sought to enforce the observance of state Shinto” Buddhism in the Modern World, S. Heine/ C.Prebish – page 204, Oxford University Press, ISBN: 0-19-514697-2
The editor who claimed that the Japanese government was ‘committed to religious freedom’ could not have depended on any RS or any true academic work, because it is falsehood to claim that that government was concerned and committed to religious freedom while all – I repeat: all – sources of history confirm the opposite.
As if this insertion of falsehood was not enough:
in support to adding falsehood to Wikipedia article, and in order to prevent quotes from RS to be published in the article, an unknown “Special Contributor”, claiming to be a Wikipedia editor, deleted various quotations I entered from RS and conditioned my editing to obtaining “consensus”. The unknown editor: 88.104.28.176 is inventing a way now to protect falsehood by deleting quotations from the article which are from RS.
Without going into detailed analysis between innocently inserting a POV - and deliberately inserting falsehood, it seems that the only way to avoid both is to put exact quotations from RS on the subject, and not editor's personal interpretation. Even if two different RS have varying perspectives, both should be presented. There is no compromise on the truth. WP guidelines allow editors to bring exact quotations to avoid conflicting misinterpretation (of citing a source but distorting what the source truly presented).
I am asking all editors who monitor this page to advise whether a complaint against editors who insert falsehood and those who support them – can be lodged to higher WP Administration. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 23:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Did you know that some people in Japan worshipped foxes? Why would someone like SGakkai members - who believes that animal worship is wrong - be silent? The true intimidation comes from those trying to accuse others in order to silence their freedom of expression.
G'day, this was brought to my attention at the DRN committee as a complex matter which could cause serious brain ache and I was asked to give it a crack to settle the dispute. As I am a dispute resolution team member and not very active with 3O I am leaving the 3O entry in situ for now as alternate opinions can never hurt. However on a brief evaluation this does indeed appear a complex issue and to do it any justice I would like to have some time to research the issue more thoroughly. This usually takes anywhere between 1 - 12 hours depending on my workload, but given it's a weekend it shouldn't be too drawn out nor painful. :) BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 16:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
After a pained two days trying to complete my 3O write-up I have noticed further discussion from new editors contributing to assist. I will withhold my consideration pending the outcome of that, I feel this may be best dealt with as a DRN matter should it not find resolution with additional opinions as recommendations can be made that will enable current editors to continue editing uninterrupted and given the research I have put in to both the subject matter and editors involved would rather retain my review for DRN rather than deal with it in 3O and have to excuse myself from handling it at DRN for past encounters with the process. BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 18:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello,
I was asked to take part in this discussion to help determine viable sources for the Nichiren Shoshu article, but based on my limited experience, this is more difficult than expected.
The problem is that Western research on Nichiren Buddhism in general (regardless of branch) is somewhat minimal, especially when compared to Zen or Pure Land branches of Buddhism. I can't say why this is, but the research simply isn't there unless either:
I have no particular interest in either side of that discussion, so instead I will suggest that the best way to resolve this article dispute may simply to cut out any and all potentially contentious material. Keep the article terse and bland as you would sort of expect an encyclopedia article.
Anyhow, I think someone asked about the term "orthodox" with regard to the name. The name is 日蓮正宗, which just means "Nichiren True/Correct Teachings". This is not such an unusual name in Japanese Buddhism, because you can see it in other, unrelated sects. Jodo Shinshu Buddhism is translated roughly as "True Teachings of the Pure Land" sect. The name probably arose for historical reasons and simply stuck. The term "orthodox" for 正 probably is not the best translation though, where "correct" might be. Someone with better experience in Japanese may be able to weigh in on that though.
Also, regarding Japan in the 1940's, it did have a state religion, now called "State Shinto". State Shinto began in the Meiji Period and was generally pretty antagonistic toward (foreign) Buddhist institutions. The 肉食妻帯 (nikujiku saitai) edict of 1872 for example forced priests to marry and eat meat. Similarly, Shinto and Buddhist institutions were forcibly separated. Some Buddhist groups (and non-State Shinto groups) eventually toed the line and followed government regulations, while others resisted. It's not always divided by sect either, as individual temples probably had some flexibility in this too. Professors Reader and Tanabe write some good books on the subject (re: Shinto and Government).
The "Fox Worship" comment is interesting and somewhat misleading. The kami Inari was a god of harvest, commerce, etc, and according to tradition used foxes as a messenger to report on harvests, etc. It is true that foxes often adorn shrines for Inari kami (a photo I took a few years ago), but it's not quite the same as worshipping foxes per se. Similarly, bulls are often used to adorn shrines for Tenjin, another kami, but Tenjin is a scholar of learning, not bulls. The symbolism of the bull derives from a story about his death as do plum blossoms. Mirrors are often used in Shinto shrines, but Japanese people do not worship mirrors. Long story short, the only items actually worshipped in a Shinto shrine are ofuda (which are said to contain an extension of the kami's essence) or whatever that shrine uses as a yorishiro (依り代), a kind of "antenna" which the Kami will descend and occupy.
Animals or symbols of animals are not used in either circumstance.
Again, just to clarify some points raised. Thanks!
-- Ph0kin ( talk) 08:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I have been watching some of this without getting involved and I kind of don't want to get involved right now but I do want to say that the above comment is just not helpful. When you say "An intelligent person would accept your sound and impartial explanation about the Shito system of belief, but for many simple-minded people, the existence of animals in worship places associates animals with divinity (and even the mirror is divine in some Japanese backround beliefs)" that isn't helpful at all. That isn't respectful and it is a really passive-aggressive way of insulting someone else which isn't a good way to find a middle ground. Helpsome ( talk) 02:16, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I appreciate the responses from BaSH PR0MPT and Helpsome about the current situation on SG page and Talkpage. There are 2 distinct matters here: one relating to WP Editors opinions about theoretical subjects (such as Shinto, shakubuku .… etc) – and the other relates to behaviour of editors.
The theoretical subjects do not constitute a problem. They are settled by citations from academic researchers’ work on subjects at hand. However, the other issue – and which was not addressed - is that of behaviour.
I am referring here to the following quotation : Do not threaten people: For example, threatening people with "admins you know" or having them banned for disagreeing with you. Explaining to an editor the consequences of violating Wikipedia policies, like being blocked for vandalism, is permitted however. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_page_guidelines
Apparently, Shii disagrees with me about certain religious issues, about the freedom of expression (in shakubuku), and in defiance of WP rules gives himself the right to threaten me with banning:
"Did you know that some people in Japan worshipped foxes? " When you spout nonsense like this you run the risk of simply being banned from editing this article. Shii (tock) 15:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Please note that this is not a personal matter at all. It relates to a behavioural tendency to restrict editing to one view only, and to give threats. Yes, we all make mistakes, and we have the capacity to correct ourselves as well. But nothing was done regarding the threat.
I decided to write to Jimmy Wales, sending him a letter today about the problem of ‘religious sensitivities’, and the tendency for restriction in editing to what one religious side wants -, and most importantly to openly given threats. I want to be sure whether WP is a secular environment. Meanwhile I am working on reviewing and improving various parts of this messy and incomplete article. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
This is a request to WP Editors, BaSH PR0MPT and Helpsome and also others as well - to take a stand regarding the behaviour of deliberate falsification and lying - whether in a WP article or here on this Talkpage. In case it is not your domain to take a stand on this behaviour , I would sincerely request a direction on where in WP structure I would be able to present the case against deliberately lying in editing WP article and deliberate deformation both in WP article and also on Talkpage. Out of several others, I have 2 cases which I want to formally raise:
/1/ In this article, Shii falsely stated that: “In 1952, the Justice Department intervened in the most severe cases, forcing Toda to end the use of assault and violence during shakubuku.[18]” The reference to this information - which Shii mentioned - had absolutely nothing on 'intervention in most severe cases', added by Shii's story-telling unhealthy imagination. The word 'assult' was never used in the source. The fact is that in 1952 the SG was newly registered - and the formal procedure required acknowledgment of abiding by the Law, and which was accordingly fulfilled. Shii deliberately lied in deforming the truth by imaginary “severe cases of violence and assualt' which never occurred.
This matter is mentioned in’ Improving the Article’ section (here on Talkpage, 28 March). Later, Shii justified his lies as being the result of ‘laziness’: of “I see how my own citing is lazy with the Justice Department quote”. The attitude of lying and dishonesty is foreign to any academic work and is not accepted in WP - there must be a mechanism in WP addressing this style of editing. And a mechanism to deal with an editor based on troublled-imaginary and story-telling style of editing WP article. I request to know WP Editors stand on what to do with an editor who knowingly introduces lies, putting falsehood in the mouth of authors he refers to.
/2/ In a discussion on Talkpage about what some people regard as false belief (and have the right to speak out their views about it) - I mentioned that some people in Japan worshipped foxes, a truth that is verifiable. Reference to this matter was just a small example of what some regard as false belief, and thier right to express their views on that. That's all, and it was not a matter of any focus in the article. However, With the intent to lie, Shii quoted me as saying: "Japanese people worship foxes, therefore we should sympathize with Soka Gakkai" . I never wrote this. Shii invented the quote from an imagination which is not healthy, incorrect and emotionally tense with conflicts. But while this ridiculous way of behavior and unjustified sensitivity is taking place here on a WP platform, I am asking for an avenue to formally deal with this situation. This is not a situation of vandalism, it is worse: it is about deliberate disrespect to WP itself. It is about using WP for fabrication of the truth and uncivilized attitude of making threats ; it is an act of delibrate aggression - all taking place on WP.
I do not accept apology from Shii, and I request a direction for initiating an formal action against deliberate lying and also issuing threats. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 01:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Since requested input here it is - I think both SafwanZabalawi and Shii have already laid out their views and should both probably just stop. Take a breather. SafwanZabalawi is overtly calling Shii a liar even after I earlier asked him to try to be more respectful (after he had not-so-subtly called Shii "simple-minded") and this isn't helpful at all. Shii seems to be at the border of his patience as well so it would probably be best for both parties to just let BaSH PR0MPT finish trying to resolve everything. This rudeness isn't making anyone's points of view more valid. Helpsome ( talk) 02:34, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
In order to complete the ‘Development’ section, I added important facts - such as the conflict between Toda and the Priesthood - and provided quotations on other issues, which were missing in the previous text. As the DRB indicated :sources related to the organisation can be used to clarify the organisation’s stand on certain issues. I preserved the previous edit but re-arranged the text to a better flow and presentation.
The SG is viewed as a controversial organisation, and for this reason variety of perspectives on controversial issues should be mentioned (not only one-sided view). The most misunderstood and controversial issues here is the perception of shakubuku, which did not have a definition in the previous text, and which was portrayed by one-sided views. Impartial and balanced editing requires presenting clarification and statements from various RS.
There was no deletion of text from previous edit: the same information in the previous edit was kept as in the previous edit - but shifted to appropriate paragraphs. I shifted some sentences from one paragraph to another to fit the flow of information for better clarity. There was no deletion apart from minor & unnecessary details (such as the number of 75 Union branches and coal miners in Yubari province and other sentences occupying unnecessary space ) - Now the conflict with Japan’s Communist Party is mentioned in more concise presentation.
Instead of citations which included words which do not appear in the referenced source – a quotation from the reference was used. Quotations may contribute to a somehow longer text, but a safe and correct reference, and a more rich article.
Further sections in this article require correction and also a future clean up. For example: someone invented a reference called “bible of Shakubuku” and this sarcastic, immature and false naming of a reference is disregard to WP guidelines and does not add to the quality of WP article. Other issues will be examined in time. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
The “Pre-1992 teachings” section, included two paragraphs: the first of which related to the position of Nichiren Shoshu regarding the Gohonzon. For this reason I included the paragraph related to the Gohonzon and Nichiren Shoshu in the section about the Gohonzon/conferral. As for the other paragraph: it was based on inventing a “funny title” (the “Bible of shakubuku”) - described in an immature blog: http://kemponhokke.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/sgi-bible-of-shakubuku.html This is not a Wikipedia approved Reliable Source. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 07:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/3183 -- Mark Rogow May 5, 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BCB1:49A9:813E:A34F:D8F2:DF72 ( talk) 19:18, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Improving the ‘Expansion’ part required adding various missing information in the previous text (such as Ikeda’s resignation from presidency in 1979, information about involvement with the UN in 1981, and other events and quotations associated with the phase of Expansion). There was no substantial deletion of text from the previous editing: its main part remains exactly the same, however, shifting some sentences from one paragraph to another was necessary to make the flow of presentation more harmonious. (The sentence about building the Shohondo is mentioned in and relates to the next section: 'Schism with the Priesthood). Some scholars (Metraux and others) refer to ” Schism” as “Independence” or "separation" from the Priesthood because division and disagreements between the SG and Nichiren Shoshu existed since even prewar times. The next section (Schism or Separation) is still missing important events and information. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:53, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Shii: I agree that the quote I presented (and which you deleted) was not clear, but it was not any deliberate misquote from my side. There is an explanation for that quote: it was a combination of two opposing views on the subject, and contained combined statements - and I realise now that it was not clear or simple. I can explain more but it is a lengthy explanation, and there is no need to spend time on this. It’s Ok with me that you deleted that quote, no worries, I will look for another source on the subject, but this may take some time.
There is a view that the military government in Japan was committed to religious freedom, and there is another view that the military government in Japan was suppressive to other religious groups. Both of these views should be equally presented, as WP is not biased towards any particular view or position. It is a matter of finding RS to support a non-biased presentation. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 12:23, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
The previous title “Schism with the Priesthood” was relevant to the differences between the SG & Shoshu, while this History section of the article is relevant to the result of schism, and which is the Separation of the two administrations. (Some scholars - Daniel Metraux, Seager - refer to the current phase as “Independence” - from the Priesthood, but probably “Separation from the Priesthood” is a realistic description.
The current editing completed the previous text by adding missing facts of dispute on doctrinal issues (as well as criricism against the Soka Gakkai regarding cultural activities). Focus in the current editing was on the final stage of dispute which led to excommunication and complete separation of the two administrations.
Some of the paragraphs were shifted to accomodate addition of missing events. I have deleted unconfirmed (and unnecessary) statements such as “Nichiren Shōshū continues to charge large fees for weddings and ceremonies…” as this claim may seem to be accusative (and not referenced). I also deleted weak sentences such as “this long-running dispute this reached a boiling point ..” and similar. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Excellent and complete article on the issue [from 1973-1979] by Reverend Kando Tono, Shoshinkei priest: Background, Meaning, and Content Leading to the Split, https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/the$20background$2C$20meaning$2C$20content$20$26$20spirit.$20.$20.%22$20by$20Rev.$20Kando$20Tono%7Csort:relevance/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/wwNy42T1x_s/P8uEsO3Z5ygJ Mark Rogow 05/19/2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:E699:DCD5:3589:76D5:490F ( talk) 04:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The sign previously put (for clean up) in April asked for better clarity in the Intro - and I rearranged the previous text to coincide with a chronological flow of related events and major information.
The article requires still further clean up and editing: Having 2 separate sections about the Gohonzon, “ The Object” and “Conferral of Gohonzon” – can be simplified by merging the two sections into one (as both relate to the same subject). This subject is about the current SGI Gohonzon and it is not about Nichiren Shoshu DaiGohonzon, which is a subject belonging to the article about the DaiGohonzon and which I will edit later. Also, a major information about SGI Charter is missing – but this will be for later on. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 06:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I have combined two unnecessarily separate sections about the Gohonzon ( The Object of Devtion + Conferral of Gohonzon) into simple one section. This section is about SGI Gohonzon, it is not a discussion about Nichiren ShoShu views or daiGohonzon. There were various irrelevant additions about Nichiren Shoshu and the daiGohonzon in Taisekiji, which does not belong to SGI, nor to the subject of the Gohonzon, but rather to Nichiren Shoshu and also the article about daiGohonzon. I will add these there. I am happy that the image of the Gohonzon has been accepted by readers and is stabilised on the page. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 06:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I fully support displaying the Gohonzon's image on the article's page of SGI. In fact, hiding the Gohonzon from display is a view of Nichiren Shoshu priesthood which has nothing to do with SGI.
The imgae was correctly placed in the article for over a year. Few days ago however, Image of the Gohonzon, was deliberately placed up-side-down, by an immature and disrespectful to Wikipedia and to all readers - person, and I have removed now that incorrect image. I'll try to upload the image with the correct orientation, but please do so if you wish.
The Gohonzon is the Object of Devotion for millions of people. Just to make the case clear, you may not be a Christian, but to deliberately place the image of Jesus upside down is not a act of a mentally capable person, it is just an action of immaturity and disrespect to Wikipedia to do such things. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 01:29, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
The history section of this page could use some cleanup, particularly with regard to the number of italicised quotations, which should be replaced with paraphrasing or block quotes in cases of particularly large quotes. CrystalWalrein ( talk) 22:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Any truth to these allegations?
Soka Gakkai owned or affiliated companies:
http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2013/07/soka-gakkai-owned-or-affiliated.html
http://antisgi.blog124.fc2.com/blog-entry-4.html
The following remark appeared by editor Lionpride: "Saying Makiguchi "believed" in the Nichiren Shoshu sect is a generalization that doesn't describe their tense and often uneasy relationship, as described in Seagers book, "Encountering the Dharma."
Makiguchi believed in Nichiren Buddhism, joined Nichiren Shoshu and got disappointed by that sect, not by Nichiren Buddhism- (their uneasy relationship is a proof of this). Similarly, one may believe in Christianity but not necessarily in the Catholic church.
Anyway, there are many sources on the subject of Makiguchi and Shoshu relationships. Editors are more accurate when presenting a concise quotation from their reference, rather than a personal interptretation or judegment. This will be followed up. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:42, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I deleted the latest addition of the establishment of "Happy Science Party" to this article because it is irrelevant to the subject at hand - and can only weaken the article and confuse readers.
Happy Science Party was established in 2009, while the subject was about the Komeito established in 1955. Wikipedia articles are about facts realted to the subject and not about jumping to another time on unrelated matter.
I am researching into how criticism of Soka Gakkai supporting Komeito has now faded out. I will eventually add this fact to the article. It is just unreasonable to criticise citizens because they have the right to vote (to what ever party they want in a democracy). Dissatisfaction because SG members use their legal right to vote to a registered party in a democracy - this speaks about dissatisfaction from the current system which allows for democracy and human rights.
Nevertheless, the issue of relationship between religion and politics can be a separate meaningful article on its own: M Luther King Jr movement, Gandhi and politics, dalai Lama and Buddhist Government, Christian Democratic Party in Germany and elsewhere...are examples of the correlation between social movements, religions and politics. But this article is not about these comparisions, it is about historical facts (or claims and interpretations) - related to the Soka Gakkai, so let's keep it sharp and neat. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The Article’s section “Perception and Criticism” lacked any mention of how acknowledged Academia and Human Rights Movements perceive SGI.
The previously mentioned view of the United Nations lacked United Nations sources of reference, which I now included. Perception of SGI movement in society, schools and universities is now briefly mentioned. I say "briefly" because the list of contents and sources is relatively big. Only few from the academia including Nobel Prize Recipients - who shared activities and talks in SGI centers – are mentioned here as an indication.
There is a reason why I am stressing here on that 'only a few of a long list of the Academia' are mentioned. To explain further: I did not include support to SGI movement by Nelson Mandela, Rene Huygh (art historian), Aurelio Pecceci (Club of Rome), Bryan Wilson (Oxford sociologist), Johan Galtung (Norwegian peace activist), and twice recipient of Nobel Prize Linus Pauling, and others. This means that there is much "more than just ONE" example of related information.
If a certain perception of SGI is consistent and repeating (among many world figures) then an Encyclopedia would give it a credit.
But - in contrast - here in the same Section, we find an astonishingly obscure and rumor-based information expressed in the following sentence:
'There has been controversy about the degree of religious tolerance[72] and proselytizing[73][74] [75][76] practiced by some of Sōka Gakkai's members.[77]'
This sentence is based on unconfirmed or untruthful information and – literally – on rumors. Please judge for yourself: in a so called Reliable Source: http://riverdalepress.blogspot.de/2009/03/ps-24-parents-call-for-principals.html and in a tabloid fashion, it is mentioned that someone demanded resignation of an SGI teacher after “…weeks of rumors that he crossed the line between church and state with Buddhist prayer meetings”.
Wikipedia should not include fabricated information against anyone, such as this “rumor’. Nor it is a professional academic approach to put a plainly misleading information about 'religious intolerance' depending on ONE unreliable claim, a claim lacking elementary merit - and which was kicked out of court twice.
Let’s be open minded and impartial: any intelligent editor would agree that: if there is an element of truth (in that disputed sentence) - then there should be more than "just ONE shaky, fabrication-based" example- to mention as a “proof” of SGI “controversy”.
Lack of ANY true evidence (and using only ONE baseless information) does not qualify the sentence to be of any merit. It is not detrimental to SGI to have criticism. On the contrary: Aum cult, nationalist fanatics extremists and others - strongly criticised SGI and they have their right to expression. But it is supportive to Wikipedia to include baseless information relying on rumors (as self-admitted by the source providing that "information"). SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
"Peace movements" is a very broad term. I would like a definition of peace movement. The Nichiren Shoshu, Nichiren Shu, and Kempon Hokke consider themselves peace movements, as do many religious organizations. Having "Peace" in an organizations description of itself, too doesn't necessarily mean that they are in fact a peace movement. Some peace movements are better judged by their actions than their words. Before I open myself up for censor, I would like an answer to this question. As the lay representative of the Kempon Hokke in the United States, an official representative, I have some things about the nature of the SGI "peace movement" that I would like to share with the readers. -- Mark Rogow — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkRogow ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
2602:304:595F:78D9:3872:78C6:BEFE:9EC1 ( talk) 05:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be deliberately steering clear of any subjects that could reflect poorly on Sōka Gakkai. If you look at the Japanese page, it lists various controversies surrounding the sect, including criminal activities, assaults on free speech, attempts of mind control, etc. By contrast, the "criticisms" section on the English page only includes positive information about the sect. At the moment, the partiality of this article is highly questionable, and at the very least it would benefit from significant inclusions from the Japanese article. Saifaa ( talk) 21:04, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Agreed with Safwan. This article is not supposed to have an anti-SGI POV. It should be NPOV. As it stands, it is at least doing a half decent job at that. However, someone has been editing it to remove completely factual information about Jōsei Toda's reign which I sourced to several different academic publications. If he wants to remove this information again he should find a really good source refuting the academics. If it's in Japanese, I can read it. Shii (tock) 02:38, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Would documented associations and partnerships, such as SGI's partnership with the Mitsubishi corporation, Japan's largest defense contractor, that put into question SGI's true committment to peace and non-violence, be acceptable to the editors? -- Mark Rogow 2/3/13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkRogow ( talk • contribs) 04:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
It is general knowledge that SGI and Mitsubishi are partners in the largest cemetary business in Japan. It is also general knowledge that Mitsubishi is Japan's largest defense contractor. Relaying factual information is hardly a plain smear tactic. Lying does not advance the cause of the Soka nation, or does it? -- Mark Rogow
The ‘History’ section of the article is not up to the level of Encyclopedia. It is basically a POV, not an impartial presentation of facts. The text contains unreasonable statements such as that Makiguchi wanted to “commanded power over” Shoshu sect, or that Toda rode “a white horse ...to conquer religions ...” etc... It is only logical that when one writes about the foundation of an organisation, then the basic aims of that organisation and its basic concepts - should be mentioned. But this - and other important issues - are currently lacking.
In any intelligent presentation you should expect the:” one the other hand...” - but not in the current article. I think the History section should start from phases, such as Foundation, Development, Expansion ... etc while starting from names of individuals (unknown to many new readers) does not reflect a skillful presentation. The article is about an Organisation (and its history), not about names of particular individuals. I invite to sharing views. To improve the article, now the History section must be rasied to an academic level of honest presentation. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 09:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I am in the process of raising the arbitrary editing of Shii, (see his/her last comment above) and requesting assistance from WP editors on how to stop his/her action of vandalism. One of the issues is a sentence of dispute - found on page 142 from the source 11 in the text (being Encountering the Dharma book). The book mentions that under Toda, Nichiren Gosho was published and taught in study calsses. Ishii did not like this sentence so he deleted it.
/1/ Upon asking Ishii (above) on why he/she deleted the sentence, the answer was that the publication of Gosho materials were only for "top leaders". This is a POV, and above that an unreasobnable claim by Shii, because "publication" by definition means making available for the public, and the gakkai books are all sold in stores, and available openly in libraries etc...
/2/ Ishii's own interpretations (of the History of SG) is lacking logic. For example ishii thinks that : "Makiguchi insisted, against the will of Shōshū leadership, that Shōshū teachings were ultimate truth.." - implying that Shoshu did not believe that their teachings are true!!! There are various other inconsistencies. This level of editing makes the article below the level of even primary school assignment.
I will revist the whole section and improve the presentation of History in an academicly written form.
/3/ It is also to be noted that Ishii does not respect requests for indicating the citation from where he/she made enteries, and delets citation needed requests without answering the challemge.
I request WP Editor(s) for assistance as impartial observers in the disputed matters which Ishii is unreasonably introducing to WP page. 01:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I receive your abovementioned answer, Shii, saying that you “have no idea..” - as an invitation for me to explain.
Thank you for letting me show you some of your mistakes. The first of your mistakes is your statement that “there is no ‘on the other hand’ ” in regard to presenting information. This is against the freedom of expression and against WP Guidelines. WP is not your private property. You haven’t retracted yet your statement of refusal to have the “on the other hand” statements presented to readers from both or variety of perspectives This is a "back to the Middle Ages" tendency of suppression and fear of openness in presenting all perspectives. And it is a serious incident: an incident of one editor voicing restrictions (one-sided vision) on another editor in regard to presenting information. This is a serious matter of general nature: a matter concerning attitude of editors towards others - and it concerns not only me, but all others. It is still unresolved.
There are various issues with your editing of History section. But i’ll focus on 3 points.
/1/ This article is not about Nichiren Shoshu sect. But the text introduces Makiguchi and Toda as essentially being believers in a “militant” sect. This is a brain-washing tendency to mislead readers about SGI Founders from the start. It is a "whisper" to readers that the origin of the SG is beliefof its founders in a militant thinking sect. Who is ‘militant’ is a POV, Shii. Some argue that the Shinto are the "militant" in a war that destroyed Japan and millions of families in many countries. Who can possibly deny it?
/2/ You have given yourself the right to delete editing without valid reason. You deleted the following:
"Toda made it possible for the whole public to access Nichiren teachings by publishing Gosho Zenshu : "For the first time in our 700 years history, the perfect collection of Nichiren daishonin's writings has been published by the Soka Gakkai.""
To justify this vandalism, you mentioned that you think that the publication of Gosho was only for “top leaders”. You “assume” that “publishing” is not for the public - and assume that it was for “top leaders”. WP does not accept this level of self-satisfied assumption in editing and defying commonsense in deforming the word "publish' .
That was just one part of vandalism, bcause additionally you deleted this : " Nichiren Gosho and the ten worlds are central to Gakkai philosophy which is still taught in graded classes first developed in Japan in the '50s under Toda.[9]. This statement is from a source which was already used in the text, and you delete it just because it does not fit with your definition that “ publishing was not for all people”. Proof to WP Editors: the deleted text is found in old revision of this page, as edited by SafwanZabalawi (talk | contribs) at 23:43, 18 March 2013
/3/ In a History of over 20 years of struggle of Soka Kyoiku Gakkai - you mentioned just one alleged story of interpreting someone’s death as being of “divine punishment”. This is a proof of the poverty of the text and its low academic quality overlooking remarkable achievements of introducing women (who were considered as second category creatures by the oppressive society)- to educational meetings, and of publishing philosophical works and principles of education (some are taught in Universities now), and others activities. But that questionable story (about the ‘divine punishment’) was immediately followed in your text by : arresting Makiguchi. The implication of possible link between the story and the arrest - this false implication was insetrted in the text. I will work to clarify the truth and in time, I will publish on WP an image of the official charges against Makiguchi and his words of opposition to Emperor worship during interrogation.
It is accepted world wide that academic honesty requires clarity, non-bias and respect for the right of others to present a balanced and mature text. I honestly believe that WP a property of all ordinary people who expect its text to be mature, non-biased and meaningful. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 10:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request ( ): |
In this complex matter, it is hard to offer a 3rd opinion on the specifics. It would help if you could ask about 1 very specific issue at a time - for example, "Should X change to Y or not (for z reasons, see r references). If you can pose a question in that format, people could offer a 3rd opinion. It may need you to ask several times; that's fine. Please, ask one thing at once, otherwise we can't cope :-)
If we can discuss one specific issue, and sort that out - we could move on to the next. I will remove the 3O request for now; please, add a more specific request if it'll help resolve things. Thanks. 88.104.27.2 ( talk) 22:15, 22 March 2013 (UTC) |
SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 09:35, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
<moved the rest to the section below>
Hi, SafwanZabalawi. To try and make things clearer, please forgive me splitting the rest of your message into a new section below - where I hope it can be discussed. I note your comments about 'vandalism' but please, let's move forwards and discuss the content, not the person. You think those 2 quotes should be included. Let's see if the other user (or anyone else) can give reasons for not including the quote.
I hope that you don't mind me structuring the discussion this way; I think it's more likely to get resolution.
I'd give it several days; preferably a week. If nobody objects, add the quotes. That way, if they're removed again, you could just revert and refer to the discussion.
If it's disputed, feel free to poke 3O again. 88.104.27.2 ( talk) 21:16, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
The subject was about Toda making publications of books available to members. On 18 March I entered the following:
"Toda made it possible for the whole public to access Nichiren teachings by publishing Gosho Zenshu : "For the first time in our 700 years history, the perfect collection of Nichiren daishonin's writings has been published by the Soka Gakkai."[8]. and: " Nichiren Gosho and the ten worlds are central to Gakkai philosophy which is still taught in graded classes first developed in Japan in the '50s under Toda.[9].
8. ^ The Human Revolution, book 1, vol 6 page 723, World Tribune Press, ISBN 0-915678-77-2
9. ^ Encountering the Dharma, Richard Hughes Seager, page 142, University of California Press, ISBN 978-0-520-24577-8
There was no reason to delete these relevant and verifiable quotes - other than vandalism. I have refrained from using this word (of vandalism) for many days continually inviting Shii to respect WP guildelines and retract his unjustified action, but he/she refused. I request a third party's opinion on whether I have the right to include the above mentioned quotes or not. Regards. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 09:35, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
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This is getting ridiculous. I already answered Safwan's questions to the extent any reasonable person would need about two pages above here. I have an academic source saying A, he has a religious source saying A-prime; it's not a contradiction of A and is from a weaker source, so I deleted it as a waste of space. Since then he's just been spouting nonsense. I don't enjoy wasting my time coddling cranks. Shii (tock) 12:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC) |
off topic
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This whole section of 'TWO QUOTATIONS' was formulated by an unknown editor - in a way which was off topic.
The unknown editor used my words at the start of the section here, but then shifted the subject to an invalid discussion and unnecessary clogging of this page.
Nevertheless Shii asked (in its last entry) a valid question. The question asked was not off topic.
It was a question about what do I mean by improving the article. I will answer it in the last section on this current page. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 23:59, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
First, I am inviting you, Shii, to a mature and intelligent talk to improve the article. You can present your view without shouting: “YOUR POV is that several”... – Capital letters and bold characters are forms of expressing excessive engagement or even emotionalism, and there is no need for that. Please consider that the subject here is the article. It is not what you 'think that I think’. When you define my point of view as so and so..., you are putting only your imagination into this Talk page.
/a/ I’m not disputing the “reliable sources” you mentioned at all. I’m questioning your understanding of what was written in the sources you mention. I want to verify the truth in what the text attributes to the source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability
For example, you interpreted Toda’s publishing of books as publishing for 'Top Leaders' only, saying (in a previous talk) that “It appears in the citation I gave which you have repeatedly ignored”. But what you call “citation” is incorrect. Editing does not mean inserting imagined interpretation. You failed to support your claim (that publishing was only for top leaders) by any precise quote.
Another proof of your vandalism is the following: deleting also the following quote simply because you don’t like it:
" Nichiren Gosho and the ten worlds are central to Gakkai philosophy which is still taught in graded classes first developed in Japan in the '50s under Toda”. This quote does not appear in the article now, why?
The 2 quotes I am here referring to are from reliable sources (and already used in the article) but both quotes were unreasonably deleted. Academic honesty requires to impartially acknowledge presented quotes. You are openly violating WP rules.
/b/ Encyclopedia is different from story-telling allegation. For ex. you bring a story that: In 1943, a Tokyo member of the Soka Kyoiku Gakkai reportedly told a non-member that his daughter had died as punishment for not converting to Nichiren Shoshu. Well, even assuming that this occurred, it has no bearing on the whole organisation - and generalizing its background on all SKG and leadership is a fallacy, and it is called a Fallacy of Sweeping Generalization:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/
/c/ Again, I had to remind you that “This article is not about Nichiren Shoshu sect." however your answer was: “What do you think Soka Gakkai is?” If you fail to understand the difference between the two, you fail to be qualified to edit this article. In fact your editing is lacking even commonsense, look at this:
“Makiguchi insisted, against the will of Shōshū leadership, that Shōshū teachings were ultimate truth” – so you are saying that Shoshu priests did not believe that their own teachings represent ultimate truth, and did not want Makiguchi to say that Shoshu teachings are ultimate truth but he "insisted"! What a nonsense you are bringing to Wikipedia article! And who cares what Shoshu priests said or did not, this article is not about Shoshu. Makiguchi was not arrested because he was a Shoshu believer, and bringing Shoshu here to the reader of the WP article is putting confusion and nonsense on WP article.
As for what Makiguchi truly said I will quote later from the record of interrogation. The official charges of the military police against him will be image published to clarify the truth.
Thank you for an enjoyable exercise through which I can develop a wider capacity and I invite you to cooperate to improve the article with factual information. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:39, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding your non sequitur of the fallacy of sweeping generalizations, the Bible of Shakubuku edited by Daisaku Ikeda was published for the "benefit" of the entire membership. It makes many assertions of the punishment of those who practice a faith other than the Nichiren Shoshu Soka Gakkai, ie: "The family which believes in the so-called Nichiren-shu will have children who have deformities, mental retardation or madness."(page 321, The Bible of Shakubuku). This was a core teaching of the Soka Gakkai from at least the early 1950s and probably from its inception. It was a core teaching of the Soka Gakkai, not an isolated teaching of one renegade SGI member. Mark Rogow 04/21/13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:D6C9:792A:B601:F773:CBFD ( talk) 00:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you Shii for referring to what do I mean by improving the article. I have respect to you and to your work. You'd agree though that neither you nor myself - is the "ultimate perfect" editor in the world. We share information that we find in sources, and we can expand our mind.
There are many elements which contribute to the History of anything. The History of the SG was never determined by Nichiren Shoshu, therefore the focus is not Shoshu. They have their page. You may say that a relationship between the two existed, OK - but that was not the determining element in SG history - and evidently the two are quiet separate (even that some – but not all - doctrinal teachings are common).
If the History section does not reflect this fact, then it is not the History section of the subject article.
One of the utterly confusing for reader - information was that Makiguchi insisted that Shoshu beliefs are the truth ‘despite Shoshu disagreeing with him’ !!! This is just unreasonable and confusing, and it is after all irrelevant. It is not true that Makiguchi was arrested because of his beliefs in Shoshu. What Makiguchi said during interrogation must be focused on the charges (basically of rejection of Emperor worship), not Shoshu’s views about his views…etc.
Another thing. Of about 3000 SKG member in 1943 you mentioned that one member told a non member that ‘divine punishment’ happens! Any academic work generalizing this questionable info to portray similarly thousands of others – any student’s editing would be dismissed as propaganda weakening the article. I have disagreement about these two entries in your editing – they make the quality of the text messy, confused and biased. Readers need clarity and general flow of historical events, not tabloid confusing presentation.
How to arrive to the best editing? If we tell readers that someone said something – and give a source as a reference, then the question arises: How accurate is our interpretation to what someone said. To be impartial and honestly bring the correct information, the best way is to present traceable quotes – not disputed interpretation. My coming up editing will focus on quotes from reliable sources, not my interpretation.
Lastly, Shii, please understand that History (of any organization) flows in Phases (not in persons). History is not about Makiguchi Toda Ikeda. We are here about history of an organization, which went into 3 stages of Foundation (pre war), Development (post war), and finally expansion (Ikeda’s phase). Of course we still mention the 3 founders but in their time-phases. I think you agree on this clear and meaningful presentation of History. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
“In 1952, the Justice Department intervened in the most severe cases, forcing Toda to end the use of assault and violence during shakubuku.[18]”
It is obvious that 'History' of any organisation starts with its inception or Foundation phase, then its Development in time and also further stages. Following this presentation, for the purpose of clarity, I renamed the phases of History section (not by names of individuals) but by the historical stages of the organisation (keeping the individula's names and photos as they are).
In academic presentation it is important to exclude emotionalism and personal accusative views. For example describing Nichiren Shoshu as “militant” is a judgement - while the proper and correct designation is “orthodox” sect of Nichiren Buddhism. The word ‘Orthodox’ is derived from the Japanese name itself and is not an external or personal judgement. POV are not allowed in WP articles. For clarifying, I would like here to focus more on this subject to exclude any tendency of name-calling or judgements by editors. The reason is that this matter (of calling someone militant) was raised on this Talk page but without agreement of editors (to use impartial descriptions) - let me give here an example. For example: in Islam, the Shia branch is considered within the ‘orthodox’ line of Islam - but Shia sects are not necessarily terrorists or militant, and other non-Shia groups, although not orthodox - are militant and even terrorists. We may not like Nichiren Shoshu, but for honesty in description of the sect, the word Orthodox is the proper designition.
In any case, this WP article is not about Nichiren Shoshu. It is about Soka Kyoiku Gakkai and relevant mention of Nichiren shoshu should -logically- be within the focus on SKG, the title of the article.
The previous text lacked a very importnat presentation from the start - to inform readers about what is the meaning of the tiltle itself: the 'So' & 'Ka' - components of SokaKG, and what was the vision of its founder about Value Creation. Few quotes were added to fill the gap.
Quotes from RS are indication of the honesty in presenting the text without personal interpretations or additions of POV.
Concrete quotes ensure the reader of reading exactly what a source states - without false addition or personal interpretation. Citations are fine when they reflect the truth. But highly disputable (or even wrong) citations are a big problem but which can be avoided simply by straightforward quotes without unnecessary additions.
Because of the complexity of the subject of History section, I think the best way is to address the topic a step after another, a stage by stage. Further improvements of the phases of Development and Expansion will follow, after considerable attention to RS and truthful quotes. I believe this adds to the quality of WP article. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 12:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
May I suggest the dissertation by Levi Mclaughlin, Dominating Tradition Soka Gakkai and the Creation of History: https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/12949/1/MQ45445.pdf Mark Rogow 04/21/13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:D6C9:792A:B601:F773:CBFD ( talk) 00:20, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
It is below any standard of editing to use WP for an utterly false views. That was your propaganda about the military government in Japan during the II World War having ‘commitment to religious freedom’: “This conflicted with the government's commitment to religious freedom.[24]” Describing a fashist government as having commitment to religious freedom - will not be allowed. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia would have been ridiculed world wide if on one of its articles an editor stated that the military government in Nazi Germany was “committed to religious freedom”. This would have been even an insult to Jews and others. Yet, an editor inserted in the Foundation section of this article the following;
“Makiguchi believed that "Japan would only prosper once the state recognized Nichiren's teachings as the only correct faith." [19'].This conflicted with the government's commitment to religious freedom.[20]
To clarify what government we are speaking about: it is the military government in Japan during the II W W. It is the same government which in “The 1940 Religion Organisation Law gave the state control over religions and allowed it to use religions to enhance the war efforts” Prof.Daniel Metraux, and also:
“Makiguchi defied the wartime government policy of religious control, which sought to enforce the observance of state Shinto” Buddhism in the Modern World, S. Heine/ C.Prebish – page 204, Oxford University Press, ISBN: 0-19-514697-2
The editor who claimed that the Japanese government was ‘committed to religious freedom’ could not have depended on any RS or any true academic work, because it is falsehood to claim that that government was concerned and committed to religious freedom while all – I repeat: all – sources of history confirm the opposite.
As if this insertion of falsehood was not enough:
in support to adding falsehood to Wikipedia article, and in order to prevent quotes from RS to be published in the article, an unknown “Special Contributor”, claiming to be a Wikipedia editor, deleted various quotations I entered from RS and conditioned my editing to obtaining “consensus”. The unknown editor: 88.104.28.176 is inventing a way now to protect falsehood by deleting quotations from the article which are from RS.
Without going into detailed analysis between innocently inserting a POV - and deliberately inserting falsehood, it seems that the only way to avoid both is to put exact quotations from RS on the subject, and not editor's personal interpretation. Even if two different RS have varying perspectives, both should be presented. There is no compromise on the truth. WP guidelines allow editors to bring exact quotations to avoid conflicting misinterpretation (of citing a source but distorting what the source truly presented).
I am asking all editors who monitor this page to advise whether a complaint against editors who insert falsehood and those who support them – can be lodged to higher WP Administration. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 23:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Did you know that some people in Japan worshipped foxes? Why would someone like SGakkai members - who believes that animal worship is wrong - be silent? The true intimidation comes from those trying to accuse others in order to silence their freedom of expression.
G'day, this was brought to my attention at the DRN committee as a complex matter which could cause serious brain ache and I was asked to give it a crack to settle the dispute. As I am a dispute resolution team member and not very active with 3O I am leaving the 3O entry in situ for now as alternate opinions can never hurt. However on a brief evaluation this does indeed appear a complex issue and to do it any justice I would like to have some time to research the issue more thoroughly. This usually takes anywhere between 1 - 12 hours depending on my workload, but given it's a weekend it shouldn't be too drawn out nor painful. :) BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 16:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
After a pained two days trying to complete my 3O write-up I have noticed further discussion from new editors contributing to assist. I will withhold my consideration pending the outcome of that, I feel this may be best dealt with as a DRN matter should it not find resolution with additional opinions as recommendations can be made that will enable current editors to continue editing uninterrupted and given the research I have put in to both the subject matter and editors involved would rather retain my review for DRN rather than deal with it in 3O and have to excuse myself from handling it at DRN for past encounters with the process. BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 18:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello,
I was asked to take part in this discussion to help determine viable sources for the Nichiren Shoshu article, but based on my limited experience, this is more difficult than expected.
The problem is that Western research on Nichiren Buddhism in general (regardless of branch) is somewhat minimal, especially when compared to Zen or Pure Land branches of Buddhism. I can't say why this is, but the research simply isn't there unless either:
I have no particular interest in either side of that discussion, so instead I will suggest that the best way to resolve this article dispute may simply to cut out any and all potentially contentious material. Keep the article terse and bland as you would sort of expect an encyclopedia article.
Anyhow, I think someone asked about the term "orthodox" with regard to the name. The name is 日蓮正宗, which just means "Nichiren True/Correct Teachings". This is not such an unusual name in Japanese Buddhism, because you can see it in other, unrelated sects. Jodo Shinshu Buddhism is translated roughly as "True Teachings of the Pure Land" sect. The name probably arose for historical reasons and simply stuck. The term "orthodox" for 正 probably is not the best translation though, where "correct" might be. Someone with better experience in Japanese may be able to weigh in on that though.
Also, regarding Japan in the 1940's, it did have a state religion, now called "State Shinto". State Shinto began in the Meiji Period and was generally pretty antagonistic toward (foreign) Buddhist institutions. The 肉食妻帯 (nikujiku saitai) edict of 1872 for example forced priests to marry and eat meat. Similarly, Shinto and Buddhist institutions were forcibly separated. Some Buddhist groups (and non-State Shinto groups) eventually toed the line and followed government regulations, while others resisted. It's not always divided by sect either, as individual temples probably had some flexibility in this too. Professors Reader and Tanabe write some good books on the subject (re: Shinto and Government).
The "Fox Worship" comment is interesting and somewhat misleading. The kami Inari was a god of harvest, commerce, etc, and according to tradition used foxes as a messenger to report on harvests, etc. It is true that foxes often adorn shrines for Inari kami (a photo I took a few years ago), but it's not quite the same as worshipping foxes per se. Similarly, bulls are often used to adorn shrines for Tenjin, another kami, but Tenjin is a scholar of learning, not bulls. The symbolism of the bull derives from a story about his death as do plum blossoms. Mirrors are often used in Shinto shrines, but Japanese people do not worship mirrors. Long story short, the only items actually worshipped in a Shinto shrine are ofuda (which are said to contain an extension of the kami's essence) or whatever that shrine uses as a yorishiro (依り代), a kind of "antenna" which the Kami will descend and occupy.
Animals or symbols of animals are not used in either circumstance.
Again, just to clarify some points raised. Thanks!
-- Ph0kin ( talk) 08:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I have been watching some of this without getting involved and I kind of don't want to get involved right now but I do want to say that the above comment is just not helpful. When you say "An intelligent person would accept your sound and impartial explanation about the Shito system of belief, but for many simple-minded people, the existence of animals in worship places associates animals with divinity (and even the mirror is divine in some Japanese backround beliefs)" that isn't helpful at all. That isn't respectful and it is a really passive-aggressive way of insulting someone else which isn't a good way to find a middle ground. Helpsome ( talk) 02:16, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I appreciate the responses from BaSH PR0MPT and Helpsome about the current situation on SG page and Talkpage. There are 2 distinct matters here: one relating to WP Editors opinions about theoretical subjects (such as Shinto, shakubuku .… etc) – and the other relates to behaviour of editors.
The theoretical subjects do not constitute a problem. They are settled by citations from academic researchers’ work on subjects at hand. However, the other issue – and which was not addressed - is that of behaviour.
I am referring here to the following quotation : Do not threaten people: For example, threatening people with "admins you know" or having them banned for disagreeing with you. Explaining to an editor the consequences of violating Wikipedia policies, like being blocked for vandalism, is permitted however. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_page_guidelines
Apparently, Shii disagrees with me about certain religious issues, about the freedom of expression (in shakubuku), and in defiance of WP rules gives himself the right to threaten me with banning:
"Did you know that some people in Japan worshipped foxes? " When you spout nonsense like this you run the risk of simply being banned from editing this article. Shii (tock) 15:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Please note that this is not a personal matter at all. It relates to a behavioural tendency to restrict editing to one view only, and to give threats. Yes, we all make mistakes, and we have the capacity to correct ourselves as well. But nothing was done regarding the threat.
I decided to write to Jimmy Wales, sending him a letter today about the problem of ‘religious sensitivities’, and the tendency for restriction in editing to what one religious side wants -, and most importantly to openly given threats. I want to be sure whether WP is a secular environment. Meanwhile I am working on reviewing and improving various parts of this messy and incomplete article. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
This is a request to WP Editors, BaSH PR0MPT and Helpsome and also others as well - to take a stand regarding the behaviour of deliberate falsification and lying - whether in a WP article or here on this Talkpage. In case it is not your domain to take a stand on this behaviour , I would sincerely request a direction on where in WP structure I would be able to present the case against deliberately lying in editing WP article and deliberate deformation both in WP article and also on Talkpage. Out of several others, I have 2 cases which I want to formally raise:
/1/ In this article, Shii falsely stated that: “In 1952, the Justice Department intervened in the most severe cases, forcing Toda to end the use of assault and violence during shakubuku.[18]” The reference to this information - which Shii mentioned - had absolutely nothing on 'intervention in most severe cases', added by Shii's story-telling unhealthy imagination. The word 'assult' was never used in the source. The fact is that in 1952 the SG was newly registered - and the formal procedure required acknowledgment of abiding by the Law, and which was accordingly fulfilled. Shii deliberately lied in deforming the truth by imaginary “severe cases of violence and assualt' which never occurred.
This matter is mentioned in’ Improving the Article’ section (here on Talkpage, 28 March). Later, Shii justified his lies as being the result of ‘laziness’: of “I see how my own citing is lazy with the Justice Department quote”. The attitude of lying and dishonesty is foreign to any academic work and is not accepted in WP - there must be a mechanism in WP addressing this style of editing. And a mechanism to deal with an editor based on troublled-imaginary and story-telling style of editing WP article. I request to know WP Editors stand on what to do with an editor who knowingly introduces lies, putting falsehood in the mouth of authors he refers to.
/2/ In a discussion on Talkpage about what some people regard as false belief (and have the right to speak out their views about it) - I mentioned that some people in Japan worshipped foxes, a truth that is verifiable. Reference to this matter was just a small example of what some regard as false belief, and thier right to express their views on that. That's all, and it was not a matter of any focus in the article. However, With the intent to lie, Shii quoted me as saying: "Japanese people worship foxes, therefore we should sympathize with Soka Gakkai" . I never wrote this. Shii invented the quote from an imagination which is not healthy, incorrect and emotionally tense with conflicts. But while this ridiculous way of behavior and unjustified sensitivity is taking place here on a WP platform, I am asking for an avenue to formally deal with this situation. This is not a situation of vandalism, it is worse: it is about deliberate disrespect to WP itself. It is about using WP for fabrication of the truth and uncivilized attitude of making threats ; it is an act of delibrate aggression - all taking place on WP.
I do not accept apology from Shii, and I request a direction for initiating an formal action against deliberate lying and also issuing threats. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 01:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Since requested input here it is - I think both SafwanZabalawi and Shii have already laid out their views and should both probably just stop. Take a breather. SafwanZabalawi is overtly calling Shii a liar even after I earlier asked him to try to be more respectful (after he had not-so-subtly called Shii "simple-minded") and this isn't helpful at all. Shii seems to be at the border of his patience as well so it would probably be best for both parties to just let BaSH PR0MPT finish trying to resolve everything. This rudeness isn't making anyone's points of view more valid. Helpsome ( talk) 02:34, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
In order to complete the ‘Development’ section, I added important facts - such as the conflict between Toda and the Priesthood - and provided quotations on other issues, which were missing in the previous text. As the DRB indicated :sources related to the organisation can be used to clarify the organisation’s stand on certain issues. I preserved the previous edit but re-arranged the text to a better flow and presentation.
The SG is viewed as a controversial organisation, and for this reason variety of perspectives on controversial issues should be mentioned (not only one-sided view). The most misunderstood and controversial issues here is the perception of shakubuku, which did not have a definition in the previous text, and which was portrayed by one-sided views. Impartial and balanced editing requires presenting clarification and statements from various RS.
There was no deletion of text from previous edit: the same information in the previous edit was kept as in the previous edit - but shifted to appropriate paragraphs. I shifted some sentences from one paragraph to another to fit the flow of information for better clarity. There was no deletion apart from minor & unnecessary details (such as the number of 75 Union branches and coal miners in Yubari province and other sentences occupying unnecessary space ) - Now the conflict with Japan’s Communist Party is mentioned in more concise presentation.
Instead of citations which included words which do not appear in the referenced source – a quotation from the reference was used. Quotations may contribute to a somehow longer text, but a safe and correct reference, and a more rich article.
Further sections in this article require correction and also a future clean up. For example: someone invented a reference called “bible of Shakubuku” and this sarcastic, immature and false naming of a reference is disregard to WP guidelines and does not add to the quality of WP article. Other issues will be examined in time. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
The “Pre-1992 teachings” section, included two paragraphs: the first of which related to the position of Nichiren Shoshu regarding the Gohonzon. For this reason I included the paragraph related to the Gohonzon and Nichiren Shoshu in the section about the Gohonzon/conferral. As for the other paragraph: it was based on inventing a “funny title” (the “Bible of shakubuku”) - described in an immature blog: http://kemponhokke.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/sgi-bible-of-shakubuku.html This is not a Wikipedia approved Reliable Source. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 07:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/3183 -- Mark Rogow May 5, 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BCB1:49A9:813E:A34F:D8F2:DF72 ( talk) 19:18, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Improving the ‘Expansion’ part required adding various missing information in the previous text (such as Ikeda’s resignation from presidency in 1979, information about involvement with the UN in 1981, and other events and quotations associated with the phase of Expansion). There was no substantial deletion of text from the previous editing: its main part remains exactly the same, however, shifting some sentences from one paragraph to another was necessary to make the flow of presentation more harmonious. (The sentence about building the Shohondo is mentioned in and relates to the next section: 'Schism with the Priesthood). Some scholars (Metraux and others) refer to ” Schism” as “Independence” or "separation" from the Priesthood because division and disagreements between the SG and Nichiren Shoshu existed since even prewar times. The next section (Schism or Separation) is still missing important events and information. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:53, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Shii: I agree that the quote I presented (and which you deleted) was not clear, but it was not any deliberate misquote from my side. There is an explanation for that quote: it was a combination of two opposing views on the subject, and contained combined statements - and I realise now that it was not clear or simple. I can explain more but it is a lengthy explanation, and there is no need to spend time on this. It’s Ok with me that you deleted that quote, no worries, I will look for another source on the subject, but this may take some time.
There is a view that the military government in Japan was committed to religious freedom, and there is another view that the military government in Japan was suppressive to other religious groups. Both of these views should be equally presented, as WP is not biased towards any particular view or position. It is a matter of finding RS to support a non-biased presentation. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 12:23, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
The previous title “Schism with the Priesthood” was relevant to the differences between the SG & Shoshu, while this History section of the article is relevant to the result of schism, and which is the Separation of the two administrations. (Some scholars - Daniel Metraux, Seager - refer to the current phase as “Independence” - from the Priesthood, but probably “Separation from the Priesthood” is a realistic description.
The current editing completed the previous text by adding missing facts of dispute on doctrinal issues (as well as criricism against the Soka Gakkai regarding cultural activities). Focus in the current editing was on the final stage of dispute which led to excommunication and complete separation of the two administrations.
Some of the paragraphs were shifted to accomodate addition of missing events. I have deleted unconfirmed (and unnecessary) statements such as “Nichiren Shōshū continues to charge large fees for weddings and ceremonies…” as this claim may seem to be accusative (and not referenced). I also deleted weak sentences such as “this long-running dispute this reached a boiling point ..” and similar. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 05:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Excellent and complete article on the issue [from 1973-1979] by Reverend Kando Tono, Shoshinkei priest: Background, Meaning, and Content Leading to the Split, https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/the$20background$2C$20meaning$2C$20content$20$26$20spirit.$20.$20.%22$20by$20Rev.$20Kando$20Tono%7Csort:relevance/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/wwNy42T1x_s/P8uEsO3Z5ygJ Mark Rogow 05/19/2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:E699:DCD5:3589:76D5:490F ( talk) 04:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The sign previously put (for clean up) in April asked for better clarity in the Intro - and I rearranged the previous text to coincide with a chronological flow of related events and major information.
The article requires still further clean up and editing: Having 2 separate sections about the Gohonzon, “ The Object” and “Conferral of Gohonzon” – can be simplified by merging the two sections into one (as both relate to the same subject). This subject is about the current SGI Gohonzon and it is not about Nichiren Shoshu DaiGohonzon, which is a subject belonging to the article about the DaiGohonzon and which I will edit later. Also, a major information about SGI Charter is missing – but this will be for later on. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 06:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I have combined two unnecessarily separate sections about the Gohonzon ( The Object of Devtion + Conferral of Gohonzon) into simple one section. This section is about SGI Gohonzon, it is not a discussion about Nichiren ShoShu views or daiGohonzon. There were various irrelevant additions about Nichiren Shoshu and the daiGohonzon in Taisekiji, which does not belong to SGI, nor to the subject of the Gohonzon, but rather to Nichiren Shoshu and also the article about daiGohonzon. I will add these there. I am happy that the image of the Gohonzon has been accepted by readers and is stabilised on the page. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 06:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I fully support displaying the Gohonzon's image on the article's page of SGI. In fact, hiding the Gohonzon from display is a view of Nichiren Shoshu priesthood which has nothing to do with SGI.
The imgae was correctly placed in the article for over a year. Few days ago however, Image of the Gohonzon, was deliberately placed up-side-down, by an immature and disrespectful to Wikipedia and to all readers - person, and I have removed now that incorrect image. I'll try to upload the image with the correct orientation, but please do so if you wish.
The Gohonzon is the Object of Devotion for millions of people. Just to make the case clear, you may not be a Christian, but to deliberately place the image of Jesus upside down is not a act of a mentally capable person, it is just an action of immaturity and disrespect to Wikipedia to do such things. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 01:29, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
The history section of this page could use some cleanup, particularly with regard to the number of italicised quotations, which should be replaced with paraphrasing or block quotes in cases of particularly large quotes. CrystalWalrein ( talk) 22:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Any truth to these allegations?
Soka Gakkai owned or affiliated companies:
http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2013/07/soka-gakkai-owned-or-affiliated.html
http://antisgi.blog124.fc2.com/blog-entry-4.html
The following remark appeared by editor Lionpride: "Saying Makiguchi "believed" in the Nichiren Shoshu sect is a generalization that doesn't describe their tense and often uneasy relationship, as described in Seagers book, "Encountering the Dharma."
Makiguchi believed in Nichiren Buddhism, joined Nichiren Shoshu and got disappointed by that sect, not by Nichiren Buddhism- (their uneasy relationship is a proof of this). Similarly, one may believe in Christianity but not necessarily in the Catholic church.
Anyway, there are many sources on the subject of Makiguchi and Shoshu relationships. Editors are more accurate when presenting a concise quotation from their reference, rather than a personal interptretation or judegment. This will be followed up. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 03:42, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I deleted the latest addition of the establishment of "Happy Science Party" to this article because it is irrelevant to the subject at hand - and can only weaken the article and confuse readers.
Happy Science Party was established in 2009, while the subject was about the Komeito established in 1955. Wikipedia articles are about facts realted to the subject and not about jumping to another time on unrelated matter.
I am researching into how criticism of Soka Gakkai supporting Komeito has now faded out. I will eventually add this fact to the article. It is just unreasonable to criticise citizens because they have the right to vote (to what ever party they want in a democracy). Dissatisfaction because SG members use their legal right to vote to a registered party in a democracy - this speaks about dissatisfaction from the current system which allows for democracy and human rights.
Nevertheless, the issue of relationship between religion and politics can be a separate meaningful article on its own: M Luther King Jr movement, Gandhi and politics, dalai Lama and Buddhist Government, Christian Democratic Party in Germany and elsewhere...are examples of the correlation between social movements, religions and politics. But this article is not about these comparisions, it is about historical facts (or claims and interpretations) - related to the Soka Gakkai, so let's keep it sharp and neat. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 00:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
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