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I came here to get the cold, hard facts about SGI, not read a love poem to Nichiren. This article is screaming bias. For having two sections about criticism of SGI, there's almost nothing concrete about those criticisms given- what critics actually complain about is barely even mentioned! Furthermore, a neutral POV does not start a paragraph with "Unfortunately, critics of SGI and Ikeda are suspicious that he is considered..." This article shouldn't care what critics are suspicious of, so the 'unfortunately' is a huge sign of bias. Also, if quotation marks are going to be used in the criticisms section, they should actually quote something substantial- as opposed to putting individual words in quotes to make them sound sarcastic.
-a concerned reader who wants an objective POV.
i believe that someone who is against soka gakkai should not be allowed to present his whole point of view. this is because, the whole balance of the article will have already tilted towards his point of view which is already not balanced. i have seen a lot of contributions by readers here in this talk page, and i believe that a few people who are against soka gakkai had only seen the minute picture, and not the main picture. also, this is an encyclopedia. have u ever seen an encyclopedia critising the topic in question? look at the established printed britannica. regards, lesterlam84 02:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
to jim: well, i agree that in wikipedia, the problem of biaseness is greatly countered. however, this is dependent on the responses of the public. the biasesness will still be around if either party do not speak out. take for example, if people from the SGI or people who supports the organisation do not bother to post anything here, this article will be tilted towards the against party. point to note too: there are a few instances whereby the correct information which do not offend the other party had been deleted by people whom i supposed to be super against the organisation. one day i see the new information there, the next, it is gone, back to the old one. therefore, this continual battle of ideas is not healthy. u have one source wanting to put his or her information, and the other out to present his or her point of view. a battle of ideas should not be done this way, it should be done on the table, where all parties involved can really discuss. (like this talking forum) i suggest, criticism articles be posted on another page. there will be a brief mention and a link. having a super long article do not serve readers. this article must provide an constructive viewpoint. it must include what is the organisation, what it does, and so on. if the criticism is to take over half the page, readers will find it difficult to digest. i seek to disagree that information from the SGI is labelled as propaganda. if this is the case, then information from all governments or official release by other organisations are also propaganda? information published has to be publicly verified. we may be hearing from one party, but what if the information is false? there has been many such cases in history. information that is widely reported by the media, turns out to be false. i agree with Gammadion that information regarding soka gakkai japan is separated from SGI. i think i read somewhere below that SGI activities are very different than that in japan. it has to be noted that SGI organisations in other countries are really actively involved in community and social work. many are highly respected in their countries. hope i had provided some constructive views. sorry if my sentences are incoherent as i am talking on the phone. best regards, lesterlam84 05:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The "cult" reference in this article needs to be removed. There have already been several discussions about this point. First point: It has already been established that the term carries a derogatory or perjorative connotation. In Wikki's own words: "In common usage, "cult" has a negative connotation, and is generally applied to a group by its opponents, for a variety of possible reasons. ...In English-speaking countries since about the 1960s, especially in" North America, the term cult has taken on a pejorative and sometimes offensive connotation." etc. Second point: Citing a French reference is fine and good under most circumstances, but given all the conflicting views about the term, and the fact that this is an English encyclopedia, not a French one, and that we are discussing an international organization, not just a French one, it is not really helpful, especialy since (Third point) the use of the term is inconsistantly applied throughout Wikipedia. The French report includes several religions and organizations that are also English (American) organizations -- yet in the Wiki articles about them, they are not referred to as "cults," nor is the French report cited in relation to them.
For example, the following organizations and religions are included in the French report: Mormons, Jehovah's Witness (reference to the term in the title of a source cited here, but it is not stated in the text of the article as it has been in this one) Seventh-day Adventist Church ("cultic" as defined by the author of a cited book on the subject, and it has its own specific meaning - see article on Cults), the Church of God, Transcendental Meditation, the Humanist Party movement, the Church of Christ, Scientist, Pentacostals, and Raja Yoga.
If we are striving for NPOV, then the term ought to be applied equally and objectively to all entries that are also cited in this same report, OR, the report and reference outght NOT to be cited or used in this particular article, OR a different citation ought to be used in which the definition of the term is stated clearly, and/or make it clear that the French article is speaking of the SGI France specifically, (in which case, it would probably only be fair to also find similar reports about each and every SGI organization and see how each country views the organization in its country. And that would be ridiculous.
Otherwise, the only remaining reason for its inclusion in this article and not in others, is because some editors hold a POV about SGI, (as noted in Wiki's article on the subject). That is not appropriate, and NPOV. - Ruby -- 71.250.88.213 05:52, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
* | I believe these included the frequency of involvement in lawsuits, (tacitly) requiring unconditional loyalty to the leadership (as evinced by the master–disciple relationship to Pres. Ikeda), attempts to gain political influence, and encouragement to make monetary donations that disrupted personal finances. I know that in the US, SGI has reacted to such allegations by toning down everything but the master–disciple relationship (though I notice that they have switched to saying "mentor–disciple" and characterizing it differently than they used to). |
† | Specifically, extreme aggrandizement of Pres. Ikeda, collection of donations in huge amounts and their characterization as kuyo (alms), tight organizational regimentation, characterization of political and cultural activities and promotion of publications as a facet of Buddhist practice, and overzealous propagation practices (i.e., overdone shakubuku that often resulted in people joining but then throwing away the Gohonzon). |
Hear! Hear! As for the previous comments above, Jim, where did the following info come from? Is that part of the French doc? What sources do they cite?:
Specifically, extreme aggrandizement of Pres. Ikeda, collection of donations in huge amounts and their characterization as kuyo (alms), tight organizational regimentation, characterization of political and cultural activities and promotion of publications as a facet of Buddhist practice, and overzealous propagation practices (i.e., overdone shakubuku that often resulted in people joining but then throwing away the Gohonzon).
As for the French doc, once again, these other religions also met more than one of their criteria - so, same argument as before. But, I'll add this: if we are going to use that doc as a point of reference, then at some point one must make it plain -- exactly how many criteria does an organization have to meet to "qualify"? Its just not fair to keep using the broad stroke, consistently against one, and not against others, especially when you yourself recognize that "Admittedly the report casts a wide net,...". And by the way, why DOES Nichiren Shoshu manage to escape this, when it clerly also meets some if not more of these criteria?
I don't speak French, by the way - just a little here and there. Wish I could, though. Or any other language for that matter. Japanese would be really cool...At anyrate, I won't be much help there - but I will (haven't had a chance yet) check out the services I mentioned before and let you know. - Ruby-- 71.250.88.213 05:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
It is very interesting that in all the articles (except in this instance) there is always this insistance on identifying SGI with Nichiren Shoshu. Only when SGI is associated with the word "cult" is there this attempt to dissociate the two. If SGI practioners are supposed to be practicing Nichiren Shoshu, as some editors have pointed out, then the presence of Nichiren Shoshu in France should be equal to the presence of SGI. Second question, even if that wasn't the case, since they do break down the "cults" by size in this report, it still doesn't make sense that Nichiren Shoshu doesn't appear. And since other more "traditional" churches with priests etc. ARE included, it seems like the authors' weren't necessarily swayed by the "traditional" aspect of it. It seems like it probably is some kind of confusion of the two organizations, similar to the confusion of SG and SGI, perhaps. I imagine the French government doesn't really make the temple/sgi distinction... Or else, maybe they *do* distinguish between them. But then again, it wouldn't make sense for them to identify SGI and not the NST -- unless there is a method to the madness...? Hmmm...there's a thought. Perhaps its not surprising that there is a similarity between the NST charactorization and this French docs? Gee, I wonder if there is any relationship between the doc and Nichiren Shoshu...? That would be rich! I'll see if I can get anywhere with that.
At any rate, I checked on KPMPs quotes, and looked at the websites. They are direct qupotes from Nichiren Shoshu sites, so it seems fair to say that these represent Nichiren Shoshu's principles and views on what "master" means. Here are the citations in full:
from Nichiren Shoshu Overseas Bureau, Copyright 2003-2004, Shizuoka, JAPAN.
Looks like the Yoshu quote was actually a quote OF a quote - I ran a "find" on it, and it comes up word for word in the "Doctrines and Practice" article cited above. It goes on to say that "Thus, Nichiin Shonin teaches the necessity of attaining Buddhahood in one's present form through the master-disciple relationship...The correct Law flows gradually through this transmission from the past to the present and future. This is why the foundation of practice in Nichiren Shoshu is through following and having faith in the present High Priest." The idea of having to have faith in a priest, of having to go through a priest to attain enlightenment is completey counter to what Nichiren said in so many of his writings....
I agree - the Nichiren Shoshu brand of master discipple is a little freaky, to me. On a side note, why do they all look so miserable?? I looked at the photo gallery, and everyone looked so... joyless! What's that about?
As for adding the references myself, no, I won't do that. First of all, I think the term is misplaced in the first place. Second, I don't think its my right -- I haven[t enough "inside experience" to label any religion or religious institution in this way. If it were up to me, I'd let the extremists keep the title, meaning those that practice mind control, isolationism, and tend towards violence etc. That is what the term has come to mean, anyway, and because of that, when it is applied "mechanically" it unfairly denigrates organizations and religions which might actually be helpful to people, and it starts turning into a kind of discrimination and religious intoerance.
Anyway, I STILL haven't had a chance to do any furhter research with Jim's clues. Work will let up soon, so I'll definately get to it and get back to you. - R-- 71.250.88.213 05:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Gammadion 04:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi guys - I'm going to try to be quick about this...
MY REPLIES: First, I agree that the cult reference really out to go, or be moved elsewhere, for the reaons already cited. I understad that the French have their document and their rights, but that is being challenged on grounds of religious intolerance, even in France! AND its got the whole US-France feud involved, too ( BTW, the article is available in English online at http://cftf.com/french/Les_Sectes_en_France/cults.html and here http://www.cesnur.org/2001/fr_law_en.htm - and here is a good site that is trying to address the issue: Centers for Studies on New Religions and here's a BBC on it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/802070.stm ) but, beyond that, and for reasons already discussed, I think the French view is just not relevant to this English database. Put it in the French one about SGI-France, perhaps (do we need seperate pages for each country, now ?!?). I also understand the frustration with the constant regression (or evolution?) into discussions about points of theology - but I wonder - how can we write what SGI *is* if we don't have these discussions? I know they are tedious, but I still think they help to understnad what these organizations really are about. I think it would help if we could see the discussions as just that -- I don't think anyone here is really trying to take a swipe at the other, I think we are all sincerely trying to come to mutual agreement and understanding, and I still think that is a good thing - even if it might be diffiuclt, boring, or provocative. As long as we keep cool heads, and remember we are all just trying to understand, we can *do* this.
As for the point about where to begin and end - that was a really good one. I hadn't thought about it like that before. But IMO, I don't think we can or should begin SGI with Ikeda, since the two are completely linked. But you raise a very good point - how do we handle this? I have no answer, myself. But I think it would be innacurate to simply cut out the history of how SGI came into being -- Makiguchi and Toda are absolutely the background of SG and SGI, I don't see how they can be left out. And, besides, if SGI claims them, who are we to cut them out? On the other hand, they are all actually minor characters in the long history of Nichiren Shoshu -- except for the fact that in the last 40 years, SG/SGI played a part in the development of NSA and the pread of the teaching, for their part. But, really, relatively speaking, Makiguchi, Toda, nad Ikeda have a very small part in the overall history of Nichiren Shoshu. SGI aughtn't - and doesn't seek to try to claim NS history - the lineage, all that, are left up to NS; so why would NS need to be played out in the SGI page, and why would NS need to or want to claim Makiguchi and Toda for themselves, except peripherally? But, I know, that is a sticky one, and I have no real answers other than my opinions above....
I also do think Wikipedia has every right to put in the organization's positions, as long as they are presented as such (quoted, cited, etc.) As for the New Komeito, I think that's appropriate to mention them in affiliation with SGs article, with more on the history of their relationship. But as SGI does NOT have a purely political agenda or party affiliation aspect (at least as far as I can tell) and in fact, seems to shy away from anything like it, clearly stating its positions of division of church and state, and acting on that belief, then I think it is fair to mention the problems of the sister org, in the SGI article, but note the fact that SGI has taken a different stance. And as for the Temple-SGI positions etc., I for one, don't really see the necessity of that at all. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say they could each((SG, SGI, NS) just leave the whole thing out and it wouldn't hurt any of the articles, really. I think its just none of those things - once the ball is served, you gotta hit it back. But, hey, just keep the ball on your side of the court, and no one gets hurt. We can walk of the court side by side, or back away from each other, or whatever. You know? And I think you got it right, Jim, when you said isn't the most important thing that the philosphy gets spread. I think it is, too. All this other stuff just gets in the way.
MY OUTLINE SUGGESTIONS : But, all that said, I think I heard what you are *really* asking, and that is simply for my ideas of what the outline should include. So here goes: 3 articels SG, SGI, NS. I'll outline SGI, and leave SG and NS to others with more knoweldge about them. I did,however, make some notes about what I think might be better suited on the other two pages, and where I think the lines could be drawn within the SGI page. So:
SG --if included at all; maybe we should leave it to the Japan page?? Just link users to that page from the SGI page??
SGI -- 1. Intro the organization - brief on beliefs, goals, accomplishments, etc. (maybe the charter stuff, definitions or enlightenment stuff, etc,...); 2. Structure - brief bit on SG/SGI, little bit about Ikeda being head of it (leave the details for his article) little bit about major SGI orgs (maybe it would be helpful to do a sentence or two on the major players and/or more interesting developments, like SGI-USA with its diversity, the Soka University, and Florida Nature and Culture Center, etc., and SGI-France (if you did that, then that might be the place to enter in the French doc, if it is really something people think should be in there - though again, context is still important), or like SGI in Africa, where SGI has made a lot of statements about the future of Africa, etc., and/or SGI-Brazil and its work with the rainforest, etc. - Maybe that is too much, but I think it would be interesting and would give people a better understandnig of the true international nature of SGI, and help to break some of our mental chains to SG and SGI-USA which I think we all have, to varying degrees); 3. Then, some history - beginning from Shak up until today, sans the infighting, and with links to Nichiren Buddhism for more detail, noting only how and where differences lie, (maybe there could be an appropriate point for a very brief bit about the Nichiren Shoshu relationship - heavy on the relationship and mutual support, and on points of doctrinal difference (this could be a point where the distinctions between them could be highlighted -- the whole SGI emphasis on Nichiren's "do not look outside yourself," self-empowerment, etc., vs. NS' emphasis on lineage and tradition, and the importance they place on Nichrien's "protecting the true teaching," etc. (someone else might say that better) - with less on the ugly split; Then, a section on The Practice - Faith, Practice, Study (brief on some of the trappings); List and/or briefly describe major documents, with links. Criticism - Brief statment, with link to the other page (if you really think it is necessary to have one. I am not so sure that it is...but...I concede on that point, if you really think it is necessary) I think that does it...for me, at least. - Sorry this is so run on, but I can't stay on tonight. Break it up if you want...Peace and good night all, and Happy New Year, if we don't meet here again before then! -- Ruby -- 71.250.88.213 06:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
anyone ever heard of the aspect of buddhism that says: "slander stops with me." ?
OK, Paul, I'll buy into your suggestion here. I agree that the whole article needs to be restructured, something I've already mentioned several times. I wanted to start from the top—i.e., from the introduction—and do it gradually, but this is probably futile: I offered the above as something to cover lots of ground, but to be pared down; instead, it got longer and more detailed! I was hoping it would come out to no more than three paragraphs of 150-200 words each.
I've written already what I think the article should contain, and I thought you pretty much confirmed that with one of your own comments. (Under "Who needs a love poem?" above.) Correct me if I'm wrong.
Further, the article currently confuses SG and SGI too much. Mixing the two as much as it does—for example, saying that "SGI has been guided by Daisaku Ikeda since the death of Second President Josei Toda in 1958"—makes for some strange reading, especially when the next sentence clarifies that Ikeda "became president of the larger Soka Gakkai International upon its creation in 1975"! In addition to things like this, the temporal sequence of the presentation is also a bit dodgy.
I am willing to collaborate with you (and others) on this as long as you agree to keep the article factual and balanced. The only "axe to grind" I have is against obfuscation and the rewriting of history—not something I'm accusing you of, or expecting you to do consciously, but if you draw largely on SGI sources, some skewering of the past is inevitable. It's not that SGI lies, it's that SGI doesn't tell the whole truth, or how SGI frames the truth. I would also appreciate it if people would stop picking nits with every factoid they don't like—we can't just pepper the article with separate citations for every little thing when we've already supplied sources and references at the end of the article that are supposed to cover that ground.
For my part, when you write about what SGI is and what it aspires to be, I won't touch those parts because, to be frank, I don't know enough about them anymore. I will be happy as long as the tone is neutral and information is presented so readers will know that SGI and the situation around it are being described, not opined about, wishfully thought upon, actively defended, or gratuiously criticized. I hope that others will likewise be respectful when I or others write about criticisms of SGI. I will keep my contributions cool and dry and cite sources—though not every other phrase. Further, I hope others will resist the urge to engage in circuitous strings of aggressive points and counterpoints or a revert war seeking to stay one step ahead of material—whether favorable or critical—that they don't like.
If we can stick to ground rules like these, the article has a chance of being quite informative. (And I'll bet the history section will turn out to be the hardest to tackle. <g>)
So now the big question: when do you think you would have time to do your promised full rewrite? I'd like to see you do your stuff. I'm coming off a busy work period and expect my workload to be low for the next month or so. I'm willing to dedicate a few hours a week to this article, but I'd rather not do anything that's just going to get zapped. (There are some other articles I'd like to work on too.)
You wrote that "[t]he problem here is that anyone who cares enough to bother writing the article probably IS emotionally involved." True. So let's see what we can do to overcome that emotional involvement and make the article one that will be of use to readers. In other words, take off our SGI or NS or whatever caps and put on our Wikipedian ones instead while we're here.
Meanwhile, I'm getting ready to archive this talk page—it's far too big. If anyone has any ideas for how they'd like to see it done, or any objections, speak up. I'll go to it sometime after 0:00 GMT Thursday 12/8 unless somebody says to wait longer.
Finally: Paul, you suggested people here be above the board and identify themselves. The best way to do that is to register as a Wikipedian and create a user page. If you want to find out who I am, you can go to my mine—and probably the info you seek—has been there all along. All you have to do is double-click on Jersey_Jim 15:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Lesterlam84. I sure agree with your sentiments and would like to pursue the aritcle according to them. Let's see how it goes... :) Meanwhile, I'm excited to see what kind of magic Enumclaw can work with the promised rewrite. Best regards for a nice weekend all around, from clear, sunny, and cold Tokyo. Jersey_Jim 03:43, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I think 98.8% agreement on all points, and I'm ready to jettison the other 1.2% at any time! I especially like the idea of branched-off articles (separate articles that are only linked to from this one, with their subject matter getting only passing reference) for complicated topics.
On the disorganization and procrastination: you're not alone! In the meantime, I'm looking forward to your contribution. Could you put a notice on the main page (I think the template is {{reorganizing}}) while you're working on it, so others don't edit the page at the same time? Jersey_Jim 23:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I went today just to fix some gratuitously removed links and wound up spending more time on the article than intended (albeit less than is needed). I reworked the whole introduction in a manner I hope will meet with everyone's approval. Please note that the intro isn't supposed to include a lot of detail—which I did leave in the body text.
In the body text, I tried to limit myself to spelling changes and mechanical adjustments, but in some places I couldn't resist rewording things in a manner that I hope makes the content a bit clearer. I avoided making changes that would change meaning, though I may not have been completely successful in that department. I also attempted to give the in-line source citations consistency, but I'm not sure whether they conform to one of the recommended Wikipedia conventions; likewise with the list of sources at the end of the article.
The article's midsection—on criticisms—is very dense and repetitive, so I didn't try to do too much with it today. Much of the material is rebutting rather than describing the criticisms. If the rebuttals are to remain, the must be reformulated and presented elsewhere in the article where they will not look like defenses. Maybe this is something for Enumclaw to deal with when s/he does the promised major rewrite.
I've added some sources as well. They are intended to document some of the material describing criticisms and the like; I hope no one will just pop in are remove them.
In any case, I tried to edit in the spirit of the discussions we've have here over the past few weeks. Best regards to all, Jersey_Jim 15:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I am new here to this page and to Wiki in general but hopefully my observations will still be considered. As a little back ground I am not a SGI member but my wife is. I have been to the meetings before but just as an observer so I could understand my wife's beliefs better. At no time have I been recruited by SGI and I have never received pressure to join even though my wife is a member. Here is just a quick observation gathered from my first reading.
In the criticism section it refers to the Japanese word sensei as "master". This implies that he is considered the master of the people when if fact it is a reference to Teacher. Sensei can refer to someone as master in the context of a Doctor would (hopefully) be a master of medicine or a professional artist as a master of his or her form of art. Taken from an American point of view "master" can have a lot of negative meaning due to our own historical mistakes and I think that it should be removed and replaced with teacher.
If anyone would like to have a Japanese observation of this article I can have my wife (A SGI member) and her parents (very anti SGI) take a look at it. Thanks Knowbase 05:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Pretty good edits, thanks for the work. Sorry to see the whole excommunication bit again, but at least it was failry neutral in its presentation. I haven't checked to see if you made the other pages yet, but I will. I saw the List of Cults page, and it seems like a fair trade. I think it could use some more explanation as to what each of those categories means, though. Must have been a lot of work! Thanks again for your efforts - Ruby-- 71.250.88.213 11:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Jim captured what I saw as the main problem with the material I removed. It's not because the material had a point of view; that's fine, they're entitled to it. What irritated me was that they tried to masquerade as "NPOV" while flat-out slagging on SGI, in what's supposed to be a NPOV article about SGI.
In my opinion, the proper place for those folks would be through a link at the bottom of the article about Nichiren Buddhism, since they are practicing a form of Nichiren's Buddhism, not a SGI-endorsed Buddhist practice. It seems to me that a fair, NPOV arrangement for the entire thing would be something along the lines of this (in outline form):
1) RELIGION
A) Buddhism 1) Therevada Buddhism 2) Mahanyana Buddhism a) Nichiren Buddhism 1) Nichiren Shoshu 2) Nichiren Shu 3) SGI 4) Other schools (Honmon Butsuryu Shu, Kempon Hokke Shu, Hokkeshu, etc) 5) Independent or less-formally-organized practitioners
You see, it seems to me that if we step back and quit focussing on the individual trees, the forest that appears in our field of view is the overall Nichiren Buddhism family. And beyond that, the family of all Buddhism. In my idealistic world, then, each article for a given organization/group would stick to "just the facts, ma'am" and given an overview of that organization/group's practice, history, and basics of their belief.
As soon as you start getting into trying to define the actual bits of theology that differentiate between, say, the Nichiren Shu folks and the SGI folks, well, that's when you start getting into the realm of NPOV problems, as exhibited in the text of the stuff that I deleted.
From the Nichiren Shu member's POV, for an SGI member to view Nichiren as a Buddha is outrageously wrong; it's hard for that POV to *not* come through in an article about SGI if they (the Nichrien Shu member) are writing or editing it. In fact, to them, they can't understand why any "fair" discussion of SGI doesn't include that. Likewise, for the SGI member looking at/editing/writing an article on Nichiren Shu, they can't understand how on earth it doesn't slag on the Shu for, say, selling copies of gohonzon in stores or whatever.
This, then, is the challenge for us Wikipedians; keeping the articles with enough information to be useful and differentiate between the various Nichiren schools, and giving a fair discussion and explanation of the links betwen them and the differences and history between them (particularly, in this instance, the issues between the Nichiren Shoshu and the SGI)... but not letting the articles slide into slagging on one or another organization/group in a slanted POV manner.
How do we do it? Beats me. :) No, seriously, we're in the process right now. Take a moment and pat yourself on the back for trying to do it in a fair manner.
Cheers, Paul -- Enumclaw 19:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, Paul, you've captured it pretty well. I would make the following changes to your map (and these are minor quibbles), but otherwise I pretty much agree with you.
1) RELIGION A) Buddhism 1) Therevada Buddhism 2) Mahanyana Buddhism a) Nichiren Buddhism 1) Minobu/Kuon-ji (Mimbe Niko) line A) Nichiren Shu 1 Schools with roots in Nichiren Shu C) Other schools now affiliated with Nichiren Shu but previously independent (Ikegami line, etc.) B) Other, spinter groups 2) Fuji/Komon (Byakuren Nikko) line A) Nichiren Shoshu 1 Myoshinko/Kenshokai 2 Shoshinkai 3 Soka Gakkai/SGI 4 Other, splinter groups B) Kitayama Honmon-ji line C) Kyoto Yobo-ji D) etc... (there were/are eight of them) 3) Other major school affilliated with neither Nichiren Shu nor Nichiren Shoshu (Honmon Butsuryu Shu, Kempon Hokke Shu, Hokkeshu, etc) 5) Lay-only or less-formally organized practitioner groups
I think Paul has already found the solution to not letting the articles slide into a mud-slinging contest: avoid the temptation to criticize other groups, or even to directly respond to things they've written about themselves. If someone writes something patently false as a statement of fact, someone else should call them on the carpet for it; if we describe ("group ABC believes this way"), not assert ("group ABC is this way"), we should be okay. Note, though, that when we characterize; use scare quotes and qualifiers such as so-called, sarcasm, or ridicule; or directly criticize a description as if it were an assertion, we fall into the point-of-view/bias trap. Also, because people can follow the record of edits and even discussions here almost indefinitely, when we misstep the proper bounds or even resort to personal attacks, we discredit ourselves and perhaps even the groups we're associated with. On the group that posted the Wikispam, I think they were more or less slagging all organized groups, not just SGI. Best regards to all, Jim_Lockhart 15:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Archiving done. Paul, your reading of my outline is correct: it is intended primarilly to be chronologically ordered; that the lineages generally fall into place is incidental. I gets more complicated, though, as you (generic you) get closer to the present, especially in the late 19th century and then again in the 1930s—in the 19th century because of political pressure to rid Japanese religion of "foreign" influence (i.e., Buddhism—the historical term is called Haibutsu Kishaku 廃仏毀釈, and there is some explanation at Shinbutsu Bunri), and in the 1903s and 40s because of government pressure for all Buddhist sects to amalgamate under school-based umbrella organizations. (None of this needs to go into the SGI article—it's just FYI information.) Later Jim_Lockhart 03:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Wow, a lot have changed in the article since I last visited. Apologies, guys and gals, as I am now more concentrated in the science and technology area of wikipedia due to my studies. However, I feel that we can still more concise in the article area as I still feel a lot of "pro-Soka" elements popping up from time to time in the main article. I feel that Ruby, Jim and R have really gone through a lot making the article neutral. Anyway, do you think that certain parts of the main article should be removed and linked to the correct article? Nicheren Dashonin's life story to the Nicheren Article and Doctrines and Practices particular to SGI to Nicheren Buddhism? Thank you all.- Gammadion 08:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I came here to get the cold, hard facts about SGI, not read a love poem to Nichiren. This article is screaming bias. For having two sections about criticism of SGI, there's almost nothing concrete about those criticisms given- what critics actually complain about is barely even mentioned! Furthermore, a neutral POV does not start a paragraph with "Unfortunately, critics of SGI and Ikeda are suspicious that he is considered..." This article shouldn't care what critics are suspicious of, so the 'unfortunately' is a huge sign of bias. Also, if quotation marks are going to be used in the criticisms section, they should actually quote something substantial- as opposed to putting individual words in quotes to make them sound sarcastic.
-a concerned reader who wants an objective POV.
i believe that someone who is against soka gakkai should not be allowed to present his whole point of view. this is because, the whole balance of the article will have already tilted towards his point of view which is already not balanced. i have seen a lot of contributions by readers here in this talk page, and i believe that a few people who are against soka gakkai had only seen the minute picture, and not the main picture. also, this is an encyclopedia. have u ever seen an encyclopedia critising the topic in question? look at the established printed britannica. regards, lesterlam84 02:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
to jim: well, i agree that in wikipedia, the problem of biaseness is greatly countered. however, this is dependent on the responses of the public. the biasesness will still be around if either party do not speak out. take for example, if people from the SGI or people who supports the organisation do not bother to post anything here, this article will be tilted towards the against party. point to note too: there are a few instances whereby the correct information which do not offend the other party had been deleted by people whom i supposed to be super against the organisation. one day i see the new information there, the next, it is gone, back to the old one. therefore, this continual battle of ideas is not healthy. u have one source wanting to put his or her information, and the other out to present his or her point of view. a battle of ideas should not be done this way, it should be done on the table, where all parties involved can really discuss. (like this talking forum) i suggest, criticism articles be posted on another page. there will be a brief mention and a link. having a super long article do not serve readers. this article must provide an constructive viewpoint. it must include what is the organisation, what it does, and so on. if the criticism is to take over half the page, readers will find it difficult to digest. i seek to disagree that information from the SGI is labelled as propaganda. if this is the case, then information from all governments or official release by other organisations are also propaganda? information published has to be publicly verified. we may be hearing from one party, but what if the information is false? there has been many such cases in history. information that is widely reported by the media, turns out to be false. i agree with Gammadion that information regarding soka gakkai japan is separated from SGI. i think i read somewhere below that SGI activities are very different than that in japan. it has to be noted that SGI organisations in other countries are really actively involved in community and social work. many are highly respected in their countries. hope i had provided some constructive views. sorry if my sentences are incoherent as i am talking on the phone. best regards, lesterlam84 05:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The "cult" reference in this article needs to be removed. There have already been several discussions about this point. First point: It has already been established that the term carries a derogatory or perjorative connotation. In Wikki's own words: "In common usage, "cult" has a negative connotation, and is generally applied to a group by its opponents, for a variety of possible reasons. ...In English-speaking countries since about the 1960s, especially in" North America, the term cult has taken on a pejorative and sometimes offensive connotation." etc. Second point: Citing a French reference is fine and good under most circumstances, but given all the conflicting views about the term, and the fact that this is an English encyclopedia, not a French one, and that we are discussing an international organization, not just a French one, it is not really helpful, especialy since (Third point) the use of the term is inconsistantly applied throughout Wikipedia. The French report includes several religions and organizations that are also English (American) organizations -- yet in the Wiki articles about them, they are not referred to as "cults," nor is the French report cited in relation to them.
For example, the following organizations and religions are included in the French report: Mormons, Jehovah's Witness (reference to the term in the title of a source cited here, but it is not stated in the text of the article as it has been in this one) Seventh-day Adventist Church ("cultic" as defined by the author of a cited book on the subject, and it has its own specific meaning - see article on Cults), the Church of God, Transcendental Meditation, the Humanist Party movement, the Church of Christ, Scientist, Pentacostals, and Raja Yoga.
If we are striving for NPOV, then the term ought to be applied equally and objectively to all entries that are also cited in this same report, OR, the report and reference outght NOT to be cited or used in this particular article, OR a different citation ought to be used in which the definition of the term is stated clearly, and/or make it clear that the French article is speaking of the SGI France specifically, (in which case, it would probably only be fair to also find similar reports about each and every SGI organization and see how each country views the organization in its country. And that would be ridiculous.
Otherwise, the only remaining reason for its inclusion in this article and not in others, is because some editors hold a POV about SGI, (as noted in Wiki's article on the subject). That is not appropriate, and NPOV. - Ruby -- 71.250.88.213 05:52, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
* | I believe these included the frequency of involvement in lawsuits, (tacitly) requiring unconditional loyalty to the leadership (as evinced by the master–disciple relationship to Pres. Ikeda), attempts to gain political influence, and encouragement to make monetary donations that disrupted personal finances. I know that in the US, SGI has reacted to such allegations by toning down everything but the master–disciple relationship (though I notice that they have switched to saying "mentor–disciple" and characterizing it differently than they used to). |
† | Specifically, extreme aggrandizement of Pres. Ikeda, collection of donations in huge amounts and their characterization as kuyo (alms), tight organizational regimentation, characterization of political and cultural activities and promotion of publications as a facet of Buddhist practice, and overzealous propagation practices (i.e., overdone shakubuku that often resulted in people joining but then throwing away the Gohonzon). |
Hear! Hear! As for the previous comments above, Jim, where did the following info come from? Is that part of the French doc? What sources do they cite?:
Specifically, extreme aggrandizement of Pres. Ikeda, collection of donations in huge amounts and their characterization as kuyo (alms), tight organizational regimentation, characterization of political and cultural activities and promotion of publications as a facet of Buddhist practice, and overzealous propagation practices (i.e., overdone shakubuku that often resulted in people joining but then throwing away the Gohonzon).
As for the French doc, once again, these other religions also met more than one of their criteria - so, same argument as before. But, I'll add this: if we are going to use that doc as a point of reference, then at some point one must make it plain -- exactly how many criteria does an organization have to meet to "qualify"? Its just not fair to keep using the broad stroke, consistently against one, and not against others, especially when you yourself recognize that "Admittedly the report casts a wide net,...". And by the way, why DOES Nichiren Shoshu manage to escape this, when it clerly also meets some if not more of these criteria?
I don't speak French, by the way - just a little here and there. Wish I could, though. Or any other language for that matter. Japanese would be really cool...At anyrate, I won't be much help there - but I will (haven't had a chance yet) check out the services I mentioned before and let you know. - Ruby-- 71.250.88.213 05:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
It is very interesting that in all the articles (except in this instance) there is always this insistance on identifying SGI with Nichiren Shoshu. Only when SGI is associated with the word "cult" is there this attempt to dissociate the two. If SGI practioners are supposed to be practicing Nichiren Shoshu, as some editors have pointed out, then the presence of Nichiren Shoshu in France should be equal to the presence of SGI. Second question, even if that wasn't the case, since they do break down the "cults" by size in this report, it still doesn't make sense that Nichiren Shoshu doesn't appear. And since other more "traditional" churches with priests etc. ARE included, it seems like the authors' weren't necessarily swayed by the "traditional" aspect of it. It seems like it probably is some kind of confusion of the two organizations, similar to the confusion of SG and SGI, perhaps. I imagine the French government doesn't really make the temple/sgi distinction... Or else, maybe they *do* distinguish between them. But then again, it wouldn't make sense for them to identify SGI and not the NST -- unless there is a method to the madness...? Hmmm...there's a thought. Perhaps its not surprising that there is a similarity between the NST charactorization and this French docs? Gee, I wonder if there is any relationship between the doc and Nichiren Shoshu...? That would be rich! I'll see if I can get anywhere with that.
At any rate, I checked on KPMPs quotes, and looked at the websites. They are direct qupotes from Nichiren Shoshu sites, so it seems fair to say that these represent Nichiren Shoshu's principles and views on what "master" means. Here are the citations in full:
from Nichiren Shoshu Overseas Bureau, Copyright 2003-2004, Shizuoka, JAPAN.
Looks like the Yoshu quote was actually a quote OF a quote - I ran a "find" on it, and it comes up word for word in the "Doctrines and Practice" article cited above. It goes on to say that "Thus, Nichiin Shonin teaches the necessity of attaining Buddhahood in one's present form through the master-disciple relationship...The correct Law flows gradually through this transmission from the past to the present and future. This is why the foundation of practice in Nichiren Shoshu is through following and having faith in the present High Priest." The idea of having to have faith in a priest, of having to go through a priest to attain enlightenment is completey counter to what Nichiren said in so many of his writings....
I agree - the Nichiren Shoshu brand of master discipple is a little freaky, to me. On a side note, why do they all look so miserable?? I looked at the photo gallery, and everyone looked so... joyless! What's that about?
As for adding the references myself, no, I won't do that. First of all, I think the term is misplaced in the first place. Second, I don't think its my right -- I haven[t enough "inside experience" to label any religion or religious institution in this way. If it were up to me, I'd let the extremists keep the title, meaning those that practice mind control, isolationism, and tend towards violence etc. That is what the term has come to mean, anyway, and because of that, when it is applied "mechanically" it unfairly denigrates organizations and religions which might actually be helpful to people, and it starts turning into a kind of discrimination and religious intoerance.
Anyway, I STILL haven't had a chance to do any furhter research with Jim's clues. Work will let up soon, so I'll definately get to it and get back to you. - R-- 71.250.88.213 05:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Gammadion 04:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi guys - I'm going to try to be quick about this...
MY REPLIES: First, I agree that the cult reference really out to go, or be moved elsewhere, for the reaons already cited. I understad that the French have their document and their rights, but that is being challenged on grounds of religious intolerance, even in France! AND its got the whole US-France feud involved, too ( BTW, the article is available in English online at http://cftf.com/french/Les_Sectes_en_France/cults.html and here http://www.cesnur.org/2001/fr_law_en.htm - and here is a good site that is trying to address the issue: Centers for Studies on New Religions and here's a BBC on it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/802070.stm ) but, beyond that, and for reasons already discussed, I think the French view is just not relevant to this English database. Put it in the French one about SGI-France, perhaps (do we need seperate pages for each country, now ?!?). I also understand the frustration with the constant regression (or evolution?) into discussions about points of theology - but I wonder - how can we write what SGI *is* if we don't have these discussions? I know they are tedious, but I still think they help to understnad what these organizations really are about. I think it would help if we could see the discussions as just that -- I don't think anyone here is really trying to take a swipe at the other, I think we are all sincerely trying to come to mutual agreement and understanding, and I still think that is a good thing - even if it might be diffiuclt, boring, or provocative. As long as we keep cool heads, and remember we are all just trying to understand, we can *do* this.
As for the point about where to begin and end - that was a really good one. I hadn't thought about it like that before. But IMO, I don't think we can or should begin SGI with Ikeda, since the two are completely linked. But you raise a very good point - how do we handle this? I have no answer, myself. But I think it would be innacurate to simply cut out the history of how SGI came into being -- Makiguchi and Toda are absolutely the background of SG and SGI, I don't see how they can be left out. And, besides, if SGI claims them, who are we to cut them out? On the other hand, they are all actually minor characters in the long history of Nichiren Shoshu -- except for the fact that in the last 40 years, SG/SGI played a part in the development of NSA and the pread of the teaching, for their part. But, really, relatively speaking, Makiguchi, Toda, nad Ikeda have a very small part in the overall history of Nichiren Shoshu. SGI aughtn't - and doesn't seek to try to claim NS history - the lineage, all that, are left up to NS; so why would NS need to be played out in the SGI page, and why would NS need to or want to claim Makiguchi and Toda for themselves, except peripherally? But, I know, that is a sticky one, and I have no real answers other than my opinions above....
I also do think Wikipedia has every right to put in the organization's positions, as long as they are presented as such (quoted, cited, etc.) As for the New Komeito, I think that's appropriate to mention them in affiliation with SGs article, with more on the history of their relationship. But as SGI does NOT have a purely political agenda or party affiliation aspect (at least as far as I can tell) and in fact, seems to shy away from anything like it, clearly stating its positions of division of church and state, and acting on that belief, then I think it is fair to mention the problems of the sister org, in the SGI article, but note the fact that SGI has taken a different stance. And as for the Temple-SGI positions etc., I for one, don't really see the necessity of that at all. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say they could each((SG, SGI, NS) just leave the whole thing out and it wouldn't hurt any of the articles, really. I think its just none of those things - once the ball is served, you gotta hit it back. But, hey, just keep the ball on your side of the court, and no one gets hurt. We can walk of the court side by side, or back away from each other, or whatever. You know? And I think you got it right, Jim, when you said isn't the most important thing that the philosphy gets spread. I think it is, too. All this other stuff just gets in the way.
MY OUTLINE SUGGESTIONS : But, all that said, I think I heard what you are *really* asking, and that is simply for my ideas of what the outline should include. So here goes: 3 articels SG, SGI, NS. I'll outline SGI, and leave SG and NS to others with more knoweldge about them. I did,however, make some notes about what I think might be better suited on the other two pages, and where I think the lines could be drawn within the SGI page. So:
SG --if included at all; maybe we should leave it to the Japan page?? Just link users to that page from the SGI page??
SGI -- 1. Intro the organization - brief on beliefs, goals, accomplishments, etc. (maybe the charter stuff, definitions or enlightenment stuff, etc,...); 2. Structure - brief bit on SG/SGI, little bit about Ikeda being head of it (leave the details for his article) little bit about major SGI orgs (maybe it would be helpful to do a sentence or two on the major players and/or more interesting developments, like SGI-USA with its diversity, the Soka University, and Florida Nature and Culture Center, etc., and SGI-France (if you did that, then that might be the place to enter in the French doc, if it is really something people think should be in there - though again, context is still important), or like SGI in Africa, where SGI has made a lot of statements about the future of Africa, etc., and/or SGI-Brazil and its work with the rainforest, etc. - Maybe that is too much, but I think it would be interesting and would give people a better understandnig of the true international nature of SGI, and help to break some of our mental chains to SG and SGI-USA which I think we all have, to varying degrees); 3. Then, some history - beginning from Shak up until today, sans the infighting, and with links to Nichiren Buddhism for more detail, noting only how and where differences lie, (maybe there could be an appropriate point for a very brief bit about the Nichiren Shoshu relationship - heavy on the relationship and mutual support, and on points of doctrinal difference (this could be a point where the distinctions between them could be highlighted -- the whole SGI emphasis on Nichiren's "do not look outside yourself," self-empowerment, etc., vs. NS' emphasis on lineage and tradition, and the importance they place on Nichrien's "protecting the true teaching," etc. (someone else might say that better) - with less on the ugly split; Then, a section on The Practice - Faith, Practice, Study (brief on some of the trappings); List and/or briefly describe major documents, with links. Criticism - Brief statment, with link to the other page (if you really think it is necessary to have one. I am not so sure that it is...but...I concede on that point, if you really think it is necessary) I think that does it...for me, at least. - Sorry this is so run on, but I can't stay on tonight. Break it up if you want...Peace and good night all, and Happy New Year, if we don't meet here again before then! -- Ruby -- 71.250.88.213 06:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
anyone ever heard of the aspect of buddhism that says: "slander stops with me." ?
OK, Paul, I'll buy into your suggestion here. I agree that the whole article needs to be restructured, something I've already mentioned several times. I wanted to start from the top—i.e., from the introduction—and do it gradually, but this is probably futile: I offered the above as something to cover lots of ground, but to be pared down; instead, it got longer and more detailed! I was hoping it would come out to no more than three paragraphs of 150-200 words each.
I've written already what I think the article should contain, and I thought you pretty much confirmed that with one of your own comments. (Under "Who needs a love poem?" above.) Correct me if I'm wrong.
Further, the article currently confuses SG and SGI too much. Mixing the two as much as it does—for example, saying that "SGI has been guided by Daisaku Ikeda since the death of Second President Josei Toda in 1958"—makes for some strange reading, especially when the next sentence clarifies that Ikeda "became president of the larger Soka Gakkai International upon its creation in 1975"! In addition to things like this, the temporal sequence of the presentation is also a bit dodgy.
I am willing to collaborate with you (and others) on this as long as you agree to keep the article factual and balanced. The only "axe to grind" I have is against obfuscation and the rewriting of history—not something I'm accusing you of, or expecting you to do consciously, but if you draw largely on SGI sources, some skewering of the past is inevitable. It's not that SGI lies, it's that SGI doesn't tell the whole truth, or how SGI frames the truth. I would also appreciate it if people would stop picking nits with every factoid they don't like—we can't just pepper the article with separate citations for every little thing when we've already supplied sources and references at the end of the article that are supposed to cover that ground.
For my part, when you write about what SGI is and what it aspires to be, I won't touch those parts because, to be frank, I don't know enough about them anymore. I will be happy as long as the tone is neutral and information is presented so readers will know that SGI and the situation around it are being described, not opined about, wishfully thought upon, actively defended, or gratuiously criticized. I hope that others will likewise be respectful when I or others write about criticisms of SGI. I will keep my contributions cool and dry and cite sources—though not every other phrase. Further, I hope others will resist the urge to engage in circuitous strings of aggressive points and counterpoints or a revert war seeking to stay one step ahead of material—whether favorable or critical—that they don't like.
If we can stick to ground rules like these, the article has a chance of being quite informative. (And I'll bet the history section will turn out to be the hardest to tackle. <g>)
So now the big question: when do you think you would have time to do your promised full rewrite? I'd like to see you do your stuff. I'm coming off a busy work period and expect my workload to be low for the next month or so. I'm willing to dedicate a few hours a week to this article, but I'd rather not do anything that's just going to get zapped. (There are some other articles I'd like to work on too.)
You wrote that "[t]he problem here is that anyone who cares enough to bother writing the article probably IS emotionally involved." True. So let's see what we can do to overcome that emotional involvement and make the article one that will be of use to readers. In other words, take off our SGI or NS or whatever caps and put on our Wikipedian ones instead while we're here.
Meanwhile, I'm getting ready to archive this talk page—it's far too big. If anyone has any ideas for how they'd like to see it done, or any objections, speak up. I'll go to it sometime after 0:00 GMT Thursday 12/8 unless somebody says to wait longer.
Finally: Paul, you suggested people here be above the board and identify themselves. The best way to do that is to register as a Wikipedian and create a user page. If you want to find out who I am, you can go to my mine—and probably the info you seek—has been there all along. All you have to do is double-click on Jersey_Jim 15:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Lesterlam84. I sure agree with your sentiments and would like to pursue the aritcle according to them. Let's see how it goes... :) Meanwhile, I'm excited to see what kind of magic Enumclaw can work with the promised rewrite. Best regards for a nice weekend all around, from clear, sunny, and cold Tokyo. Jersey_Jim 03:43, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I think 98.8% agreement on all points, and I'm ready to jettison the other 1.2% at any time! I especially like the idea of branched-off articles (separate articles that are only linked to from this one, with their subject matter getting only passing reference) for complicated topics.
On the disorganization and procrastination: you're not alone! In the meantime, I'm looking forward to your contribution. Could you put a notice on the main page (I think the template is {{reorganizing}}) while you're working on it, so others don't edit the page at the same time? Jersey_Jim 23:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I went today just to fix some gratuitously removed links and wound up spending more time on the article than intended (albeit less than is needed). I reworked the whole introduction in a manner I hope will meet with everyone's approval. Please note that the intro isn't supposed to include a lot of detail—which I did leave in the body text.
In the body text, I tried to limit myself to spelling changes and mechanical adjustments, but in some places I couldn't resist rewording things in a manner that I hope makes the content a bit clearer. I avoided making changes that would change meaning, though I may not have been completely successful in that department. I also attempted to give the in-line source citations consistency, but I'm not sure whether they conform to one of the recommended Wikipedia conventions; likewise with the list of sources at the end of the article.
The article's midsection—on criticisms—is very dense and repetitive, so I didn't try to do too much with it today. Much of the material is rebutting rather than describing the criticisms. If the rebuttals are to remain, the must be reformulated and presented elsewhere in the article where they will not look like defenses. Maybe this is something for Enumclaw to deal with when s/he does the promised major rewrite.
I've added some sources as well. They are intended to document some of the material describing criticisms and the like; I hope no one will just pop in are remove them.
In any case, I tried to edit in the spirit of the discussions we've have here over the past few weeks. Best regards to all, Jersey_Jim 15:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I am new here to this page and to Wiki in general but hopefully my observations will still be considered. As a little back ground I am not a SGI member but my wife is. I have been to the meetings before but just as an observer so I could understand my wife's beliefs better. At no time have I been recruited by SGI and I have never received pressure to join even though my wife is a member. Here is just a quick observation gathered from my first reading.
In the criticism section it refers to the Japanese word sensei as "master". This implies that he is considered the master of the people when if fact it is a reference to Teacher. Sensei can refer to someone as master in the context of a Doctor would (hopefully) be a master of medicine or a professional artist as a master of his or her form of art. Taken from an American point of view "master" can have a lot of negative meaning due to our own historical mistakes and I think that it should be removed and replaced with teacher.
If anyone would like to have a Japanese observation of this article I can have my wife (A SGI member) and her parents (very anti SGI) take a look at it. Thanks Knowbase 05:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Pretty good edits, thanks for the work. Sorry to see the whole excommunication bit again, but at least it was failry neutral in its presentation. I haven't checked to see if you made the other pages yet, but I will. I saw the List of Cults page, and it seems like a fair trade. I think it could use some more explanation as to what each of those categories means, though. Must have been a lot of work! Thanks again for your efforts - Ruby-- 71.250.88.213 11:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Jim captured what I saw as the main problem with the material I removed. It's not because the material had a point of view; that's fine, they're entitled to it. What irritated me was that they tried to masquerade as "NPOV" while flat-out slagging on SGI, in what's supposed to be a NPOV article about SGI.
In my opinion, the proper place for those folks would be through a link at the bottom of the article about Nichiren Buddhism, since they are practicing a form of Nichiren's Buddhism, not a SGI-endorsed Buddhist practice. It seems to me that a fair, NPOV arrangement for the entire thing would be something along the lines of this (in outline form):
1) RELIGION
A) Buddhism 1) Therevada Buddhism 2) Mahanyana Buddhism a) Nichiren Buddhism 1) Nichiren Shoshu 2) Nichiren Shu 3) SGI 4) Other schools (Honmon Butsuryu Shu, Kempon Hokke Shu, Hokkeshu, etc) 5) Independent or less-formally-organized practitioners
You see, it seems to me that if we step back and quit focussing on the individual trees, the forest that appears in our field of view is the overall Nichiren Buddhism family. And beyond that, the family of all Buddhism. In my idealistic world, then, each article for a given organization/group would stick to "just the facts, ma'am" and given an overview of that organization/group's practice, history, and basics of their belief.
As soon as you start getting into trying to define the actual bits of theology that differentiate between, say, the Nichiren Shu folks and the SGI folks, well, that's when you start getting into the realm of NPOV problems, as exhibited in the text of the stuff that I deleted.
From the Nichiren Shu member's POV, for an SGI member to view Nichiren as a Buddha is outrageously wrong; it's hard for that POV to *not* come through in an article about SGI if they (the Nichrien Shu member) are writing or editing it. In fact, to them, they can't understand why any "fair" discussion of SGI doesn't include that. Likewise, for the SGI member looking at/editing/writing an article on Nichiren Shu, they can't understand how on earth it doesn't slag on the Shu for, say, selling copies of gohonzon in stores or whatever.
This, then, is the challenge for us Wikipedians; keeping the articles with enough information to be useful and differentiate between the various Nichiren schools, and giving a fair discussion and explanation of the links betwen them and the differences and history between them (particularly, in this instance, the issues between the Nichiren Shoshu and the SGI)... but not letting the articles slide into slagging on one or another organization/group in a slanted POV manner.
How do we do it? Beats me. :) No, seriously, we're in the process right now. Take a moment and pat yourself on the back for trying to do it in a fair manner.
Cheers, Paul -- Enumclaw 19:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, Paul, you've captured it pretty well. I would make the following changes to your map (and these are minor quibbles), but otherwise I pretty much agree with you.
1) RELIGION A) Buddhism 1) Therevada Buddhism 2) Mahanyana Buddhism a) Nichiren Buddhism 1) Minobu/Kuon-ji (Mimbe Niko) line A) Nichiren Shu 1 Schools with roots in Nichiren Shu C) Other schools now affiliated with Nichiren Shu but previously independent (Ikegami line, etc.) B) Other, spinter groups 2) Fuji/Komon (Byakuren Nikko) line A) Nichiren Shoshu 1 Myoshinko/Kenshokai 2 Shoshinkai 3 Soka Gakkai/SGI 4 Other, splinter groups B) Kitayama Honmon-ji line C) Kyoto Yobo-ji D) etc... (there were/are eight of them) 3) Other major school affilliated with neither Nichiren Shu nor Nichiren Shoshu (Honmon Butsuryu Shu, Kempon Hokke Shu, Hokkeshu, etc) 5) Lay-only or less-formally organized practitioner groups
I think Paul has already found the solution to not letting the articles slide into a mud-slinging contest: avoid the temptation to criticize other groups, or even to directly respond to things they've written about themselves. If someone writes something patently false as a statement of fact, someone else should call them on the carpet for it; if we describe ("group ABC believes this way"), not assert ("group ABC is this way"), we should be okay. Note, though, that when we characterize; use scare quotes and qualifiers such as so-called, sarcasm, or ridicule; or directly criticize a description as if it were an assertion, we fall into the point-of-view/bias trap. Also, because people can follow the record of edits and even discussions here almost indefinitely, when we misstep the proper bounds or even resort to personal attacks, we discredit ourselves and perhaps even the groups we're associated with. On the group that posted the Wikispam, I think they were more or less slagging all organized groups, not just SGI. Best regards to all, Jim_Lockhart 15:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Archiving done. Paul, your reading of my outline is correct: it is intended primarilly to be chronologically ordered; that the lineages generally fall into place is incidental. I gets more complicated, though, as you (generic you) get closer to the present, especially in the late 19th century and then again in the 1930s—in the 19th century because of political pressure to rid Japanese religion of "foreign" influence (i.e., Buddhism—the historical term is called Haibutsu Kishaku 廃仏毀釈, and there is some explanation at Shinbutsu Bunri), and in the 1903s and 40s because of government pressure for all Buddhist sects to amalgamate under school-based umbrella organizations. (None of this needs to go into the SGI article—it's just FYI information.) Later Jim_Lockhart 03:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Wow, a lot have changed in the article since I last visited. Apologies, guys and gals, as I am now more concentrated in the science and technology area of wikipedia due to my studies. However, I feel that we can still more concise in the article area as I still feel a lot of "pro-Soka" elements popping up from time to time in the main article. I feel that Ruby, Jim and R have really gone through a lot making the article neutral. Anyway, do you think that certain parts of the main article should be removed and linked to the correct article? Nicheren Dashonin's life story to the Nicheren Article and Doctrines and Practices particular to SGI to Nicheren Buddhism? Thank you all.- Gammadion 08:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)