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A successful WP article should have appropriate sequence, proportion of events and proper titles. But for now I want to point to the immature choice of some titles, with the example of the Raccoon Dog’s one. This is rather tabloid and not encyclopedic way of choosing titles. Cheap advertising depends on unexpected flashes and a sudden strange title: a Raccoon? And a Dog? Wow! And add to that a Monk! Wow wow! And what was the intent of this attractive title? It is at the end of the text: that since then the Gakkai was sealed as a violent organization: “this incident helped establish the organization's reputation as a violent cult.[48]:705–711(A violent cult – just remember these words at the end of this post).
Editing which aims at stigmatizing and establishing identities for people and organisations - must be driven by personal agenda. WP should not come to this level. Lets ask a scholar on what she/he thinks about this Raccoon issue. They would perhaps say that the incident is just one of many events in the history of Soka under Toda. Being so, a meaningful title perhaps would be: “Toda and the Priesthood”, or something like that. Raccoon and Dog and a Monk and a Festival - and angry mob…such psychologically oriented words makes WP article go from sappboxing to a sensational sale advertising. This is not an attitude of an encyclopedic article.
There was also a justification of this Raccoon Section that the Gakkai wants to forget or avoid that incident - as for example the Catholic Church may want to avoid mention of the Inquisition. First, this is not true, members are proud of refuting supporters to war crimes within the priesthood. This should also be added to the text. But there is a serious matter here: Editors who make comparison - or even bring the name of the Inquisition – to associate in any implication whatsoever, with this Soka incident - are reminded here to understand that torture, and mass murder of thousands of people, even burning some alive by the Catholic Church, does not amount to Soka peaceful protest by youth to correct a monk who cooperated with the fascist authorities (and who was even happy in a latter stage with what happened). Again the personal religious or political beliefs of some editors– can affect the writing of this article and which makes its essence rather a farce.
Still on the titles: The title Pacifism comes a far way down and way far from the Intro which starts by defining the SGI by tabloid POVs: militaristic fascist quasi militaristic … The Intro was written to prime the mind of WP reader by repeated negative wording, and after that bombardment - then writers put Pacifism as a minor subtitle at the middle of the article (if the reader survives reading further). This is but a psychology trick to manipulate the mind of reader. Again, I may be mistaken but an independent scholar can give an opinion on priorities in article writing, because – speaking of Pacifism - Peace and Nonviolence are the very cause of SGI - which was intentionally designed to start in Guam, the island which suffered severe casualties during the World War.
SGI official birth in Guam was a statement of the start of “World Peace” instead of “World War”. The Section 'Pacifism' should proportionally to the facts - be prominent and at the start, and should also mention about SGI-USA movement VOV (Victory Over Violence) a factual activity of young people to stop violence in society (which was supported by independent local councils). These are facts that deserve also a presence and a title such as perhaps “Pacifism, NonViolence and World Peace”.
Returning here to the Raccon’s section ending with giving SG an Identity card: “ A Violent Cult” – there is Question here, directed to the intellect of reader, to wisdom and reason, and not emotions : Question: How would an implied militaristic fascist violent cult work for Peace, nonviolence and humanism? SGI is described in the INTRO as as a “militaristic organization” – then at the Raccoon area as a “Violent Cult” but in a later portion of the same article SGI works for peace and Nonviolence”. How can a “fascist manipulist militaristic quasi militarist Violent cult advocate Pacifism and humanism! Which of these 2 extremes had the priority in the Intro. The whole structure of the article is slowly falling apart. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:55, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
By partnering with Mitsubishi Heavy Industrials? Mark Rogow 08/06/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CD27:DB49:845F:E6B2:FE26:FB17 ( talk) 03:18, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Wait Safwan. Don't go. You still haven't answered my question: By partnering with Mitsubishi Heavy Industrials? 2602:306:CD27:DB49:845F:E6B2:FE26:FB17 ( talk) 05:41, 7 August 2014 (UTC)Mark Rogow 08/06/2014
I would like to underline the fact that the issue of members and adherents is quite important. SGI has managed to use certain legal loopholes. In Germany it operates as a so called “eingetragener Verein” and has legally a little less than seven members – same goes for the US and UK. Editors experts in such legal matters are welcomed to join to find references on that which are hard to come by being visible in the internet. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I think the section "Membership" can be re-written. There is one number for global membership, which is fine. But about the Japanese membership, it starts with a flat declarative sentence that there are 5.42 million. A sentence later it gives the SG's official total of 8.27 households, two estimates of 2.5 million people, and another estimate of 5 million (all in one sentence). I think mentioning just the SG's own count, and the contradictory Ministry of Education count would be sufficient, and certainly carry more weight than someone's guess - educated though the guess may be. Maybe mention "some authors estimate different numbers" with footnotes. But the way it's written now is confusing to read, and maybe a bit redundant. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 02:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Kept all the citations. Wrote it to be easier to follow. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 00:11, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Removed "Leadership" again. This time there was a link to a pdf of Canada's by-laws or something. But it is still just a declaration of how someone thinks SG should conduct its own business, and adds nothing to any understanding of the topic beyond that. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 17:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
The statement (which comprises the entire section) "The election or nomination of so called “leaders” is typically not decided by SGI’s adherents but by a Board of directors" is blatantly false - unless one defines "leaders" as one would a CEO. The leaders who are most active, and with whom most members (and non-members) interact are not "decided by a board of directors". How about saying something more accurate - e.g., national leaders, at least in Canada, are chosen by a board of directors"; and then I'll add some information about the volunteer positions that make up 99% of the SG leaders? Trying to work wiyth you here instead of a revert war. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 23:36, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
I found that there are a few article that are inter-related with the main Soka Gakkai article. While I appreciate what is being done and discuss in this talk, other article which are not locked for editing are slowly being fill or vandalised with negative perception.
The main article that is taking place is Daisaku Ikeda. You can see that what is being written previously with negative perception in "Soka Gakkai" is being left unedited on Daisaku Ikeda article. Kelvintjy ( talk) 06:46, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I expanded this section so it tells more about the school than that it has problems with environmentalists. Added some current rankings, and a short list of academic topics.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:49, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Not really. Before, the section contained but two pieces of information: that the school had problems with environmentalists, and it was allegedly part and parcel of the SG. Those two items are still there.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 22:55, 17 August 2014 (UTC) The paragraph regarding SUA's rankings should be moved closer to the top as it reflects the perception of the school within the larger academic community. It is also constantly ranked as one of the most diverse schools in the country. Lionpride82 ( talk) 16:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
@Ubikwit, you are an esteemed editor who has worked tirelessly on many fronts to improve WP. But in the case of using the term “Buddhist-derived” in the lede sentence of the Soka Gakkai article you are swimming against the current of scholarship.
According to H. Byron Earhart (The new religions of Japan : a bibliography of western-language materials) the notion of “~-derived” stemmed from “a practice adopted by the Ministry of Education (now the Ministry of Education, Science and Culture) in grouping New Religions according to the major tradition from which they derived: Shinto-derived, Buddhist-derived, Christian-derived, and ‘Other Religions.’" ( http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cjs/aba2512.0001.001/--new-religions-of-japan-a-bibliography-of-western-language?rgn=main;view=fulltext).
Should WP readers be forced to make a judgment about the SG through the lens of a Japanese government system of categorization? This is counterproductive. The first impression that they will inevitably draw from the lede as currently written is that the SG is not really Buddhist but only “Buddhist-derived.” 99.9% of readers are unaware of the backdrop of the Japanese Ministry of Education and a few scholars who rely on its systems.
This is a grave disservice to our readers especially since scholars have been either ignoring or abandoning this system of categorization. In the second edition of his book Earhart himself abandoned this pattern of grouping by derivation and simply listed new religions by the alphabetical order of their names.
@Ubikwit, the only citation you provided in the SG talk page to justify the “~-derived” concept is a footnote in Leslie Kawamura’s book “The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhism” (p. 228) which was a collection of papers given at a 1978 academic conference at the University of Calgary. On the basis of a footnote you state, “the descriptive use of ‘~-derived new religion’ is the normal jargon used in academia to discuss these movements that started from the 19th century onward in Japan.” Without a convincing number of citations to support this statement, this categorization should be removed from the lede sentence and reserved for a new subsection.
The term “Buddhist-derived” certainly does not appear anywhere else in the SG article whereas direct SG references to Buddhist or Buddhism appear at least 7 times in the article, and 12 times in the bibliographic references. @Shii has been adamant in the past about removing content in the lede that is not supported in the rest of the article.
@Ubikwit, you sidestepped my August 14th post on the talk page where I point out that in the very text of the Kawamura book we find the central thesis that the Japanese new religions are “an integral entity of the Japanese Buddhist tradition” and “Soka Gakkai is a historically established religious institution, a sangha, which like any other Buddhist institution is striving, through improvising skill-in-means, to realize the ideal bodhisattva principle" (p. 215). Instead of considering my citation you ignored my references from the text of the book, calling my posting “ludricrous” on the basis of an obscure footnote. You then demanded that I “cease and desist” making entries.
You certainly have more credentials on WP than I based on your long history of contributions on many articles. But in this case I have to question some of your actions. It appears that you went on a one-man campaign to introduce the concept of “`-derived” (a few days earlier “~-influenced) into Wikipedia. On August 12 you applied the term to the article on the Soka Gakkai. On August 13th you changed the Sangha article by injecting “Buddhist-derived” to a reference about the SG. The same day you introduced “Buddhist-derived’ to an article about the Kenshokai. You struck again on August 16th to introduce the term “Shinto-derived” to the article on Tenrikyo. This strikes me as Orwellian. FetullahFan ( talk) 13:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The "derived" line is horribly misleading, if not just plain wrong. I'd first point out that the very first citation in the article is to a book called "Soka Gakkai: From Lay Movement to Religion"; and the subtitle of one of the most frequently cited books is "Daisaku Ikeda, Soka Gakkai, and the Globalization of Buddhist Humanism" - not "lay movement to religion-derived", not "Buddhist-derived humanism". I suppose with a little effort other references throughout the article could be found that make the same point - Soka Gakkai is a religion, and, in fact, a Buddhist religion. Plus, it's members engage in the practice prescribed by Nichiren, in exactly the same way as other Nichiren sects, and the organization was the first to publish a comprehensive collection of Nichiren's writings, the first to translate same extensively, to say nothing of the numerous books and articles it publishes on the Lotus Sutra and the writings of Nichiren. I will soon be adding things to the body of the article that I hope will make this point implicitly. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 15:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 18:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The bottom line is that SGI does not even describes itself as a Buddhist school. As there is no council on who is Buddhist and who is not the discussion is somewhat useless. Some regard the Bodhisattva vow as kind of creed that unifies most Mahayana Buddhists (also practised by other Nichiren Buddhists). The reason why some would say SGI is today only remotely Buddhist is due to the fact it introduced teachings that are not Buddhist and which some regard as indication of a leader cult. Also the weight given to Buddhist liturgy has lessened in the last few years. It also has not contributed in any major ways to the field of Buddhist Studies. The vehemence and aggressiveness in which SGI attacked its former parent school was unseen in todays Buddhism. So in a way it marginalised itself within the Buddhist world. It’s not the first New Religion to be Nichiren inspired – it is however not a traditional Buddhist school – it’s an organisation with a religious practise with a strong emphasis given to its presidents.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 22:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
"Buddhismus im modernen Japan."... A general description of the historical development of Buddhism in Japan, followed by brief treatment of Buddhist-derived New Religions.
Excerpt from Kitagawa (1966), pp. 327-331, 339
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1) "The bottom line is that SGI does not even describes itself as a Buddhist school." Just examining one SGI publication, we see that they chose to call it "Living Buddhism"; that it devotes 14 of its 63 pages to studying a small portion of a writing of Nichiren; that another study article begins "President Ikeda discusses the core teaching of Nichiren Buddhism..."; and that the first two pages of the magazine are kind of a FAQ and the answer to the question "What is the SGI?" begins "Our lay Buddhist organization. That's one quick glance through one small magazine. Can we stop pretending SGI doesn't call itself a Buddhist school?
2)"The relevant context here is that this is an encyclopedia, not a forum to provide representation for adherents to the movement that is the subject of the article". Nor, I hope, is it a forum for other sects whose teachings contradict the subjects, or for portraying the subject in the least flattering light. It seems to me that Margin and Fetullah Fan are arguing for balance, and others are arguing for refutation. What I see here is not one extreme against the other - it's one extreme against the middle. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 17:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Daveler16:SGI does not describe itself a Buddhist SCHOOL!!! Is that so hard to understand? It is not a „Shu“, never said it is, never said it wants to be. An if you are unable to understand that read upon what a school in Buddhism and Japanese Buddhism especially means. One can not fight and attack traditional forms of Buddhism attack its structures and definitions, but use its definitions when it come in handy. SGI does not even do that and they surely know why, so why do you? -- Catflap08 ( talk) 09:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
First of all, I appreciate Shii’s edit of the lede paragraph. I think it accommodates everyone’s concerns. Secondly, as a new editor, I am so impressed by the WP process. After a very rancorous discussion we pulled together as a team and came up with a very balanced product. I hadn’t anticipated that such a great accomplishment would be achieved.
My only concern is the word “semitraditional” in the lede sentence. It does not come up very much in WP except in rather obscure articles such as “British nuclear tests in Maralinga,” “2008 Rosebowl,” or “Music of Tonga.” Although it successfully conveys the essence of our extended discussion, I am not quite sure WP readers will grasp it.
May I share the description of the SG reached by Richard H. Seager? “The SG is best understood as a liberal and modernist religious movement, one marked by the self-conscious attempt to adapt Buddhism to the contemporary world. All three presidents of the SG have made unique contributions to this liberal modernism, each in dialogue with a distinct phase of the development of modern Japan, as it moved from self-imposed exile in the mid-nineteenth century to post-war globalization.” (p. xiv).
To solve the lack of clarity in “semitraditional” I would suggest incorporating some of Seager's words into the lede sentence: “The Soka Gakkai is a Japanese new religious movement that has adapted the teachings of Nichiren to the contemporary world.” The rest of the paragraph IMHO stands perfectly. 74.101.191.18 ( talk) 09:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Can I suggest the following?
"Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a lay Japanese new religious movement founded in 1930 by educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and Jōsei Toda. The Soka Gakkai claims a membership of 12 million people in 192 countries and territories around the world. It derives its worldview from the writings of the 13th century Buddhist monk Nichiren and the organization’s three founding presidents. Its religious views were also shaped by its past relationship with the Nichiren Shoshu sect.
The organization had grown to a size of about 3000 households before World War II when much of its leadership was imprisoned on charges of lèse-majesté. The membership base grew rapidly in the three decades after the war through an explosive yet controversial proselytization campaign. It is now one of the larger Japanese new religions. The movement is publicly involved in peace activism, education and politics. The Soka Gakkai has also been at the center of controversies.
@ Margin1522: I can not bring into the article facts that are not yet supported by outside views – like some do with AOL sources. I can however mention in the talk page what people report to me still engaged in what is SGI. It would still need Japanese speakers to do this which I am not. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I see that a new editor added the "Members of Sōka Gakkai" category to the See also section, and that it got deleted almost immediately. The way he did that was apparently to create a redirect page to the category, and then add the redirect page. I'm pretty sure that this is not the right thing to do, but it's not clear that categories can't be added to See also. This was discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Layout/Archive_7#See also include links to categories?, and there wasn't a consensus. Some people feel that in some cases it's OK.
What should we do about this? There was some useful information in there (e.g. I didn't know that Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter are members). I think the normal thing to do would be to convert the redirect page into a list article and put THAT into See also. I'd do it myself, but I'm kind of busy right now. -- Margin1522 ( talk) 06:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Under the "Beliefs and Practices" Section it said "For further information" with links to the entries for "Nichiren Buddhism" and "Nichiren Shoshu". I understand the "Nichiren Buddhism" link. But it is mentioned many times in many parts of the article (too many, I think) that the SG started as a lay organization within Shoshu,and it's certainly not necessary to define SG's "beliefs and practices" through the lens of someone else's "beliefs and practices", or even to compare them.
For the same reason, there is no point in including Taisekiji's ""Guide to refuting [erroneous teachings of] other schools"" in the "Books" section at the end of the article. I think the aqppropriate place for including what Nichiren Shoshu believes and practices is the entry for Nichiren Shoshu.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 01:29, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
After years of observing this article there is but one common thread. Some editors spend much of their time downgrading, deleting, defaming, quarrelling over sections of the article that are either critical or non-supportive of SGI’s view of itself. At the same time non-primary sources are hard to be found that support SGI. I really do wonder why that is. On the other hand I have witnessed claims being inserted in this article or on Mr. Ikeda that a closer look can not be substantiated.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Catflap, that was a nice try, but I really doubt that Wikipedia readers need to know about this report. So if there are no objections, I'm going to delete that paragraph.
First off, you left some things out. The whole passage is as follows (sorry, in German, but when I try to copy from the
English version (p. 201) the text is garbled):
Einige Gruppen haben national eine geringe Bedeutung und sind vor Ort nicht in schwerwiegende politische Konflikte verwickelt bzw. schwerwiegender öffentlicher Kritik ausgesetzt. Sie bleiben aber durch ihre Einbindung in eine internationale, anderenorts bedeutsame und konfliktbehaftete Organisation latent problematisch. Ein Beispiel dafür wurde bei der Anhörung von Soka Gakkai deutlich, einer in Deutschland eher unauffälligen Gruppe von hier ca. 3 000 Personen, die in Japan, den USA usw. jedoch ein hohes Gewicht hat. 234)
Note that you left out the part where it says that in 1998 SGI was relatively unknown, had only ca. 3000 members in Germany, had never been involved locally in any significant political controversy, and had not attracted any criticism. They call SGI not "problematic" but a "latent problem", and as evidence cite one book in English and squabbling over SGI on an AOL members forum.
The book is titled "An Unconventional Method for killing America." In fact, AFIK, this book has never been translated. The Japanese title is アメリカ殺しの超発想―「奴隷」日本よ、目を醒ませ!制度疲労をすぐ正せ! (An Unconventional Method for killing America. "Slave" Japan, Wake Up! Repair Systemic Fatigue Now!). It was by an economics professor who in the 1990s had a side line of writing cheap paperbacks in the Japan Strikes Back genre. Apparently they hadn't read the book, or realized that it was Japan that was going to be killing America, as a way to escape from its slavery.
I could go on, but it's pretty clear that this group of German legislators knew almost nothing about SGI. It's a pretty low-quality source, for anything except that conservative politicians are suspicious of new religious movements. --
Margin1522 (
talk)
20:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Well thats too bad the original is quite explicit underlining the problematic character nothing more is said. Also the footnote is worth reading - the wording is diplomatic.So it was anything but cleared as of being unproblematic and it’s one of the few cases that SGI was looked at on a highly official level and since it’s an international organisation here we go. Similar material can be found in France btw.. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Margin1522: The article itself explains why the word derived is appropriate … the organisations’ history shows why it is appropriate. The remark that this government paper makes is that even though in Germany the organisation is inconspicuous it does underline that internationally the organisation is involved in profound political conflicts and serious public debate. It also concludes that in the US and Japan the organisation is faced with statutory violation, violation of human rights and rightist extremist allegations. It also notes that sources and literature are mostly in Japanese. So in the end it states that the organisation was officially described as being latently problematic. Nothing else is stated in the sentence and this is a piece of information on the latest official stance on this organisation is within Germany. An organisation that operates internationally. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 09:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
If a source is 17 years or one year old is irrelevant. A 1998 source of the Washington Post was good enough again in another article:-). I am sorry but this has nothing to do about “slandering” (what a typical SGI terminology that is). If you do take time and read the whole article’s history within the last five or ten years you will realise the article was at times in a state as if it came straight out the SGI PR-department. A soon as some included some critical comments (not even by myself) the SGI faithful were out there for a full swing edit war. Attacking even the most renowned sources, even as going as far to attack editors with an academic background. Before you downgrade an official report and the conclusions it has made – Information on SGI were available even in 1997 and the problems it faced were similar to the ones today. AND all cults and groups mentioned in the report had to face the committee personally via its representatives – I know this because a) I speak German hence read the report b) because I at that time witnessed when the outcome of the report was delivered to the SGI-D faithful. So were that AOL stuff comes from no idea. The section reflects exactly what the report had to say on SGI. A report of a committee SGI had to stand up to. So if you are so knowledgeable as you seem to be about the report I wonder why you left out the fact in you latest edit that SGI had to speak in front of the committee. Also the Dragan Todorovic report is what it is a report an observation which readers are expected to have brains enough to read first hand and come to their own conclusionI wonder why it is that sources that support SGI’s view of itself are at a closer look in some ways affiliated to SGI – even some sociological papers?? Which at a even closer look at times turn out to be a dissertation of some sort by an SGI adherent. I know that secondary and tertiary sources to support SGI’s view of itself are hard to come by but that does not make secondary and tertiary sources that DO NOT support SGI’s view of itself inaccurate. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Maybe that is hard to swallow for you … the report lists sources and footnotes you may like them or not. SGI had to face the committee as all other groups and cults had to. The result is this Government paper which comes to the conclusion that SGI is problematic. 1998 is not 1898 or 1798 I have no idea what the year 1998 has to do with it while you add references to articles which are even older than that. The only conclusion I can come up with that you do not like this being mentioned and in that case there are guideline on censorship too. Even the paper itself does not say that SGI IS fascist, that it oversteps legal boundaries but it says by keeping all things in mind – especially in respect to the Japanese mother organisation – it remains problematic. Compared to other cults investigated this is quite a smooth outcome. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 16:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry the EKD is the Evangelical Church in Germany (bit of a bad translation into English as “Evangelical” holds different connotations) protestant church in Germany – I rather keep a government paper as a source rather than what a religious “competitor” has to say on SGI. And no – it is not okay to delete the source. @ Margin I did not want you to turn your back on the article. But in the end its worthwhile if editors are familiar with the subject. I would suggest reading the book “Fire in the lotus” which is in my books one of the few neutral books on the subject in an unbiased and understandable tone. Since the subject is not mainstream it is out of print but still available. Yes the subject is contentious and I am sick and tired that some decide to “attack” sources with an opposing view on SGI while none provide non-primary sources on how SGI sees the world. I use the word cult only in the talk page – due to personal experience. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I cannot tell from reading various policies if a short quote from the writings of Nichiren would constitute "original research", or is an acceptable citation. If I were to say "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is considered the true entity of all phenomena", could I reference to a writing (I would of course not include the quote, just the book and page numbers) that says "It is the entity of the true aspect of all phenomena ...What then is that entity? It is Nam Myoho Renge Kyo". Is that okay, or would I have to find a 3rd party who wrote that Nichiren declared etc etc.? Thanks.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 00:46, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. The quotes I refer to are short, and I don't think they (or even the translations) are in dispute as authentic. I will certainly include the name of the translator. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:04, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
A successful WP article should have appropriate sequence, proportion of events and proper titles. But for now I want to point to the immature choice of some titles, with the example of the Raccoon Dog’s one. This is rather tabloid and not encyclopedic way of choosing titles. Cheap advertising depends on unexpected flashes and a sudden strange title: a Raccoon? And a Dog? Wow! And add to that a Monk! Wow wow! And what was the intent of this attractive title? It is at the end of the text: that since then the Gakkai was sealed as a violent organization: “this incident helped establish the organization's reputation as a violent cult.[48]:705–711(A violent cult – just remember these words at the end of this post).
Editing which aims at stigmatizing and establishing identities for people and organisations - must be driven by personal agenda. WP should not come to this level. Lets ask a scholar on what she/he thinks about this Raccoon issue. They would perhaps say that the incident is just one of many events in the history of Soka under Toda. Being so, a meaningful title perhaps would be: “Toda and the Priesthood”, or something like that. Raccoon and Dog and a Monk and a Festival - and angry mob…such psychologically oriented words makes WP article go from sappboxing to a sensational sale advertising. This is not an attitude of an encyclopedic article.
There was also a justification of this Raccoon Section that the Gakkai wants to forget or avoid that incident - as for example the Catholic Church may want to avoid mention of the Inquisition. First, this is not true, members are proud of refuting supporters to war crimes within the priesthood. This should also be added to the text. But there is a serious matter here: Editors who make comparison - or even bring the name of the Inquisition – to associate in any implication whatsoever, with this Soka incident - are reminded here to understand that torture, and mass murder of thousands of people, even burning some alive by the Catholic Church, does not amount to Soka peaceful protest by youth to correct a monk who cooperated with the fascist authorities (and who was even happy in a latter stage with what happened). Again the personal religious or political beliefs of some editors– can affect the writing of this article and which makes its essence rather a farce.
Still on the titles: The title Pacifism comes a far way down and way far from the Intro which starts by defining the SGI by tabloid POVs: militaristic fascist quasi militaristic … The Intro was written to prime the mind of WP reader by repeated negative wording, and after that bombardment - then writers put Pacifism as a minor subtitle at the middle of the article (if the reader survives reading further). This is but a psychology trick to manipulate the mind of reader. Again, I may be mistaken but an independent scholar can give an opinion on priorities in article writing, because – speaking of Pacifism - Peace and Nonviolence are the very cause of SGI - which was intentionally designed to start in Guam, the island which suffered severe casualties during the World War.
SGI official birth in Guam was a statement of the start of “World Peace” instead of “World War”. The Section 'Pacifism' should proportionally to the facts - be prominent and at the start, and should also mention about SGI-USA movement VOV (Victory Over Violence) a factual activity of young people to stop violence in society (which was supported by independent local councils). These are facts that deserve also a presence and a title such as perhaps “Pacifism, NonViolence and World Peace”.
Returning here to the Raccon’s section ending with giving SG an Identity card: “ A Violent Cult” – there is Question here, directed to the intellect of reader, to wisdom and reason, and not emotions : Question: How would an implied militaristic fascist violent cult work for Peace, nonviolence and humanism? SGI is described in the INTRO as as a “militaristic organization” – then at the Raccoon area as a “Violent Cult” but in a later portion of the same article SGI works for peace and Nonviolence”. How can a “fascist manipulist militaristic quasi militarist Violent cult advocate Pacifism and humanism! Which of these 2 extremes had the priority in the Intro. The whole structure of the article is slowly falling apart. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 02:55, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
By partnering with Mitsubishi Heavy Industrials? Mark Rogow 08/06/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CD27:DB49:845F:E6B2:FE26:FB17 ( talk) 03:18, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Wait Safwan. Don't go. You still haven't answered my question: By partnering with Mitsubishi Heavy Industrials? 2602:306:CD27:DB49:845F:E6B2:FE26:FB17 ( talk) 05:41, 7 August 2014 (UTC)Mark Rogow 08/06/2014
I would like to underline the fact that the issue of members and adherents is quite important. SGI has managed to use certain legal loopholes. In Germany it operates as a so called “eingetragener Verein” and has legally a little less than seven members – same goes for the US and UK. Editors experts in such legal matters are welcomed to join to find references on that which are hard to come by being visible in the internet. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I think the section "Membership" can be re-written. There is one number for global membership, which is fine. But about the Japanese membership, it starts with a flat declarative sentence that there are 5.42 million. A sentence later it gives the SG's official total of 8.27 households, two estimates of 2.5 million people, and another estimate of 5 million (all in one sentence). I think mentioning just the SG's own count, and the contradictory Ministry of Education count would be sufficient, and certainly carry more weight than someone's guess - educated though the guess may be. Maybe mention "some authors estimate different numbers" with footnotes. But the way it's written now is confusing to read, and maybe a bit redundant. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 02:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Kept all the citations. Wrote it to be easier to follow. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 00:11, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Removed "Leadership" again. This time there was a link to a pdf of Canada's by-laws or something. But it is still just a declaration of how someone thinks SG should conduct its own business, and adds nothing to any understanding of the topic beyond that. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 17:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
The statement (which comprises the entire section) "The election or nomination of so called “leaders” is typically not decided by SGI’s adherents but by a Board of directors" is blatantly false - unless one defines "leaders" as one would a CEO. The leaders who are most active, and with whom most members (and non-members) interact are not "decided by a board of directors". How about saying something more accurate - e.g., national leaders, at least in Canada, are chosen by a board of directors"; and then I'll add some information about the volunteer positions that make up 99% of the SG leaders? Trying to work wiyth you here instead of a revert war. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 23:36, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
I found that there are a few article that are inter-related with the main Soka Gakkai article. While I appreciate what is being done and discuss in this talk, other article which are not locked for editing are slowly being fill or vandalised with negative perception.
The main article that is taking place is Daisaku Ikeda. You can see that what is being written previously with negative perception in "Soka Gakkai" is being left unedited on Daisaku Ikeda article. Kelvintjy ( talk) 06:46, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I expanded this section so it tells more about the school than that it has problems with environmentalists. Added some current rankings, and a short list of academic topics.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:49, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Not really. Before, the section contained but two pieces of information: that the school had problems with environmentalists, and it was allegedly part and parcel of the SG. Those two items are still there.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 22:55, 17 August 2014 (UTC) The paragraph regarding SUA's rankings should be moved closer to the top as it reflects the perception of the school within the larger academic community. It is also constantly ranked as one of the most diverse schools in the country. Lionpride82 ( talk) 16:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
@Ubikwit, you are an esteemed editor who has worked tirelessly on many fronts to improve WP. But in the case of using the term “Buddhist-derived” in the lede sentence of the Soka Gakkai article you are swimming against the current of scholarship.
According to H. Byron Earhart (The new religions of Japan : a bibliography of western-language materials) the notion of “~-derived” stemmed from “a practice adopted by the Ministry of Education (now the Ministry of Education, Science and Culture) in grouping New Religions according to the major tradition from which they derived: Shinto-derived, Buddhist-derived, Christian-derived, and ‘Other Religions.’" ( http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cjs/aba2512.0001.001/--new-religions-of-japan-a-bibliography-of-western-language?rgn=main;view=fulltext).
Should WP readers be forced to make a judgment about the SG through the lens of a Japanese government system of categorization? This is counterproductive. The first impression that they will inevitably draw from the lede as currently written is that the SG is not really Buddhist but only “Buddhist-derived.” 99.9% of readers are unaware of the backdrop of the Japanese Ministry of Education and a few scholars who rely on its systems.
This is a grave disservice to our readers especially since scholars have been either ignoring or abandoning this system of categorization. In the second edition of his book Earhart himself abandoned this pattern of grouping by derivation and simply listed new religions by the alphabetical order of their names.
@Ubikwit, the only citation you provided in the SG talk page to justify the “~-derived” concept is a footnote in Leslie Kawamura’s book “The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhism” (p. 228) which was a collection of papers given at a 1978 academic conference at the University of Calgary. On the basis of a footnote you state, “the descriptive use of ‘~-derived new religion’ is the normal jargon used in academia to discuss these movements that started from the 19th century onward in Japan.” Without a convincing number of citations to support this statement, this categorization should be removed from the lede sentence and reserved for a new subsection.
The term “Buddhist-derived” certainly does not appear anywhere else in the SG article whereas direct SG references to Buddhist or Buddhism appear at least 7 times in the article, and 12 times in the bibliographic references. @Shii has been adamant in the past about removing content in the lede that is not supported in the rest of the article.
@Ubikwit, you sidestepped my August 14th post on the talk page where I point out that in the very text of the Kawamura book we find the central thesis that the Japanese new religions are “an integral entity of the Japanese Buddhist tradition” and “Soka Gakkai is a historically established religious institution, a sangha, which like any other Buddhist institution is striving, through improvising skill-in-means, to realize the ideal bodhisattva principle" (p. 215). Instead of considering my citation you ignored my references from the text of the book, calling my posting “ludricrous” on the basis of an obscure footnote. You then demanded that I “cease and desist” making entries.
You certainly have more credentials on WP than I based on your long history of contributions on many articles. But in this case I have to question some of your actions. It appears that you went on a one-man campaign to introduce the concept of “`-derived” (a few days earlier “~-influenced) into Wikipedia. On August 12 you applied the term to the article on the Soka Gakkai. On August 13th you changed the Sangha article by injecting “Buddhist-derived” to a reference about the SG. The same day you introduced “Buddhist-derived’ to an article about the Kenshokai. You struck again on August 16th to introduce the term “Shinto-derived” to the article on Tenrikyo. This strikes me as Orwellian. FetullahFan ( talk) 13:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The "derived" line is horribly misleading, if not just plain wrong. I'd first point out that the very first citation in the article is to a book called "Soka Gakkai: From Lay Movement to Religion"; and the subtitle of one of the most frequently cited books is "Daisaku Ikeda, Soka Gakkai, and the Globalization of Buddhist Humanism" - not "lay movement to religion-derived", not "Buddhist-derived humanism". I suppose with a little effort other references throughout the article could be found that make the same point - Soka Gakkai is a religion, and, in fact, a Buddhist religion. Plus, it's members engage in the practice prescribed by Nichiren, in exactly the same way as other Nichiren sects, and the organization was the first to publish a comprehensive collection of Nichiren's writings, the first to translate same extensively, to say nothing of the numerous books and articles it publishes on the Lotus Sutra and the writings of Nichiren. I will soon be adding things to the body of the article that I hope will make this point implicitly. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 15:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 18:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The bottom line is that SGI does not even describes itself as a Buddhist school. As there is no council on who is Buddhist and who is not the discussion is somewhat useless. Some regard the Bodhisattva vow as kind of creed that unifies most Mahayana Buddhists (also practised by other Nichiren Buddhists). The reason why some would say SGI is today only remotely Buddhist is due to the fact it introduced teachings that are not Buddhist and which some regard as indication of a leader cult. Also the weight given to Buddhist liturgy has lessened in the last few years. It also has not contributed in any major ways to the field of Buddhist Studies. The vehemence and aggressiveness in which SGI attacked its former parent school was unseen in todays Buddhism. So in a way it marginalised itself within the Buddhist world. It’s not the first New Religion to be Nichiren inspired – it is however not a traditional Buddhist school – it’s an organisation with a religious practise with a strong emphasis given to its presidents.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 22:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
"Buddhismus im modernen Japan."... A general description of the historical development of Buddhism in Japan, followed by brief treatment of Buddhist-derived New Religions.
Excerpt from Kitagawa (1966), pp. 327-331, 339
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1) "The bottom line is that SGI does not even describes itself as a Buddhist school." Just examining one SGI publication, we see that they chose to call it "Living Buddhism"; that it devotes 14 of its 63 pages to studying a small portion of a writing of Nichiren; that another study article begins "President Ikeda discusses the core teaching of Nichiren Buddhism..."; and that the first two pages of the magazine are kind of a FAQ and the answer to the question "What is the SGI?" begins "Our lay Buddhist organization. That's one quick glance through one small magazine. Can we stop pretending SGI doesn't call itself a Buddhist school?
2)"The relevant context here is that this is an encyclopedia, not a forum to provide representation for adherents to the movement that is the subject of the article". Nor, I hope, is it a forum for other sects whose teachings contradict the subjects, or for portraying the subject in the least flattering light. It seems to me that Margin and Fetullah Fan are arguing for balance, and others are arguing for refutation. What I see here is not one extreme against the other - it's one extreme against the middle. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 17:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Daveler16:SGI does not describe itself a Buddhist SCHOOL!!! Is that so hard to understand? It is not a „Shu“, never said it is, never said it wants to be. An if you are unable to understand that read upon what a school in Buddhism and Japanese Buddhism especially means. One can not fight and attack traditional forms of Buddhism attack its structures and definitions, but use its definitions when it come in handy. SGI does not even do that and they surely know why, so why do you? -- Catflap08 ( talk) 09:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
First of all, I appreciate Shii’s edit of the lede paragraph. I think it accommodates everyone’s concerns. Secondly, as a new editor, I am so impressed by the WP process. After a very rancorous discussion we pulled together as a team and came up with a very balanced product. I hadn’t anticipated that such a great accomplishment would be achieved.
My only concern is the word “semitraditional” in the lede sentence. It does not come up very much in WP except in rather obscure articles such as “British nuclear tests in Maralinga,” “2008 Rosebowl,” or “Music of Tonga.” Although it successfully conveys the essence of our extended discussion, I am not quite sure WP readers will grasp it.
May I share the description of the SG reached by Richard H. Seager? “The SG is best understood as a liberal and modernist religious movement, one marked by the self-conscious attempt to adapt Buddhism to the contemporary world. All three presidents of the SG have made unique contributions to this liberal modernism, each in dialogue with a distinct phase of the development of modern Japan, as it moved from self-imposed exile in the mid-nineteenth century to post-war globalization.” (p. xiv).
To solve the lack of clarity in “semitraditional” I would suggest incorporating some of Seager's words into the lede sentence: “The Soka Gakkai is a Japanese new religious movement that has adapted the teachings of Nichiren to the contemporary world.” The rest of the paragraph IMHO stands perfectly. 74.101.191.18 ( talk) 09:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Can I suggest the following?
"Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a lay Japanese new religious movement founded in 1930 by educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and Jōsei Toda. The Soka Gakkai claims a membership of 12 million people in 192 countries and territories around the world. It derives its worldview from the writings of the 13th century Buddhist monk Nichiren and the organization’s three founding presidents. Its religious views were also shaped by its past relationship with the Nichiren Shoshu sect.
The organization had grown to a size of about 3000 households before World War II when much of its leadership was imprisoned on charges of lèse-majesté. The membership base grew rapidly in the three decades after the war through an explosive yet controversial proselytization campaign. It is now one of the larger Japanese new religions. The movement is publicly involved in peace activism, education and politics. The Soka Gakkai has also been at the center of controversies.
@ Margin1522: I can not bring into the article facts that are not yet supported by outside views – like some do with AOL sources. I can however mention in the talk page what people report to me still engaged in what is SGI. It would still need Japanese speakers to do this which I am not. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I see that a new editor added the "Members of Sōka Gakkai" category to the See also section, and that it got deleted almost immediately. The way he did that was apparently to create a redirect page to the category, and then add the redirect page. I'm pretty sure that this is not the right thing to do, but it's not clear that categories can't be added to See also. This was discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Layout/Archive_7#See also include links to categories?, and there wasn't a consensus. Some people feel that in some cases it's OK.
What should we do about this? There was some useful information in there (e.g. I didn't know that Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter are members). I think the normal thing to do would be to convert the redirect page into a list article and put THAT into See also. I'd do it myself, but I'm kind of busy right now. -- Margin1522 ( talk) 06:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Under the "Beliefs and Practices" Section it said "For further information" with links to the entries for "Nichiren Buddhism" and "Nichiren Shoshu". I understand the "Nichiren Buddhism" link. But it is mentioned many times in many parts of the article (too many, I think) that the SG started as a lay organization within Shoshu,and it's certainly not necessary to define SG's "beliefs and practices" through the lens of someone else's "beliefs and practices", or even to compare them.
For the same reason, there is no point in including Taisekiji's ""Guide to refuting [erroneous teachings of] other schools"" in the "Books" section at the end of the article. I think the aqppropriate place for including what Nichiren Shoshu believes and practices is the entry for Nichiren Shoshu.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 01:29, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
After years of observing this article there is but one common thread. Some editors spend much of their time downgrading, deleting, defaming, quarrelling over sections of the article that are either critical or non-supportive of SGI’s view of itself. At the same time non-primary sources are hard to be found that support SGI. I really do wonder why that is. On the other hand I have witnessed claims being inserted in this article or on Mr. Ikeda that a closer look can not be substantiated.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Catflap, that was a nice try, but I really doubt that Wikipedia readers need to know about this report. So if there are no objections, I'm going to delete that paragraph.
First off, you left some things out. The whole passage is as follows (sorry, in German, but when I try to copy from the
English version (p. 201) the text is garbled):
Einige Gruppen haben national eine geringe Bedeutung und sind vor Ort nicht in schwerwiegende politische Konflikte verwickelt bzw. schwerwiegender öffentlicher Kritik ausgesetzt. Sie bleiben aber durch ihre Einbindung in eine internationale, anderenorts bedeutsame und konfliktbehaftete Organisation latent problematisch. Ein Beispiel dafür wurde bei der Anhörung von Soka Gakkai deutlich, einer in Deutschland eher unauffälligen Gruppe von hier ca. 3 000 Personen, die in Japan, den USA usw. jedoch ein hohes Gewicht hat. 234)
Note that you left out the part where it says that in 1998 SGI was relatively unknown, had only ca. 3000 members in Germany, had never been involved locally in any significant political controversy, and had not attracted any criticism. They call SGI not "problematic" but a "latent problem", and as evidence cite one book in English and squabbling over SGI on an AOL members forum.
The book is titled "An Unconventional Method for killing America." In fact, AFIK, this book has never been translated. The Japanese title is アメリカ殺しの超発想―「奴隷」日本よ、目を醒ませ!制度疲労をすぐ正せ! (An Unconventional Method for killing America. "Slave" Japan, Wake Up! Repair Systemic Fatigue Now!). It was by an economics professor who in the 1990s had a side line of writing cheap paperbacks in the Japan Strikes Back genre. Apparently they hadn't read the book, or realized that it was Japan that was going to be killing America, as a way to escape from its slavery.
I could go on, but it's pretty clear that this group of German legislators knew almost nothing about SGI. It's a pretty low-quality source, for anything except that conservative politicians are suspicious of new religious movements. --
Margin1522 (
talk)
20:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Well thats too bad the original is quite explicit underlining the problematic character nothing more is said. Also the footnote is worth reading - the wording is diplomatic.So it was anything but cleared as of being unproblematic and it’s one of the few cases that SGI was looked at on a highly official level and since it’s an international organisation here we go. Similar material can be found in France btw.. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 18:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
@ Margin1522: The article itself explains why the word derived is appropriate … the organisations’ history shows why it is appropriate. The remark that this government paper makes is that even though in Germany the organisation is inconspicuous it does underline that internationally the organisation is involved in profound political conflicts and serious public debate. It also concludes that in the US and Japan the organisation is faced with statutory violation, violation of human rights and rightist extremist allegations. It also notes that sources and literature are mostly in Japanese. So in the end it states that the organisation was officially described as being latently problematic. Nothing else is stated in the sentence and this is a piece of information on the latest official stance on this organisation is within Germany. An organisation that operates internationally. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 09:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
If a source is 17 years or one year old is irrelevant. A 1998 source of the Washington Post was good enough again in another article:-). I am sorry but this has nothing to do about “slandering” (what a typical SGI terminology that is). If you do take time and read the whole article’s history within the last five or ten years you will realise the article was at times in a state as if it came straight out the SGI PR-department. A soon as some included some critical comments (not even by myself) the SGI faithful were out there for a full swing edit war. Attacking even the most renowned sources, even as going as far to attack editors with an academic background. Before you downgrade an official report and the conclusions it has made – Information on SGI were available even in 1997 and the problems it faced were similar to the ones today. AND all cults and groups mentioned in the report had to face the committee personally via its representatives – I know this because a) I speak German hence read the report b) because I at that time witnessed when the outcome of the report was delivered to the SGI-D faithful. So were that AOL stuff comes from no idea. The section reflects exactly what the report had to say on SGI. A report of a committee SGI had to stand up to. So if you are so knowledgeable as you seem to be about the report I wonder why you left out the fact in you latest edit that SGI had to speak in front of the committee. Also the Dragan Todorovic report is what it is a report an observation which readers are expected to have brains enough to read first hand and come to their own conclusionI wonder why it is that sources that support SGI’s view of itself are at a closer look in some ways affiliated to SGI – even some sociological papers?? Which at a even closer look at times turn out to be a dissertation of some sort by an SGI adherent. I know that secondary and tertiary sources to support SGI’s view of itself are hard to come by but that does not make secondary and tertiary sources that DO NOT support SGI’s view of itself inaccurate. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Maybe that is hard to swallow for you … the report lists sources and footnotes you may like them or not. SGI had to face the committee as all other groups and cults had to. The result is this Government paper which comes to the conclusion that SGI is problematic. 1998 is not 1898 or 1798 I have no idea what the year 1998 has to do with it while you add references to articles which are even older than that. The only conclusion I can come up with that you do not like this being mentioned and in that case there are guideline on censorship too. Even the paper itself does not say that SGI IS fascist, that it oversteps legal boundaries but it says by keeping all things in mind – especially in respect to the Japanese mother organisation – it remains problematic. Compared to other cults investigated this is quite a smooth outcome. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 16:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry the EKD is the Evangelical Church in Germany (bit of a bad translation into English as “Evangelical” holds different connotations) protestant church in Germany – I rather keep a government paper as a source rather than what a religious “competitor” has to say on SGI. And no – it is not okay to delete the source. @ Margin I did not want you to turn your back on the article. But in the end its worthwhile if editors are familiar with the subject. I would suggest reading the book “Fire in the lotus” which is in my books one of the few neutral books on the subject in an unbiased and understandable tone. Since the subject is not mainstream it is out of print but still available. Yes the subject is contentious and I am sick and tired that some decide to “attack” sources with an opposing view on SGI while none provide non-primary sources on how SGI sees the world. I use the word cult only in the talk page – due to personal experience. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I cannot tell from reading various policies if a short quote from the writings of Nichiren would constitute "original research", or is an acceptable citation. If I were to say "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is considered the true entity of all phenomena", could I reference to a writing (I would of course not include the quote, just the book and page numbers) that says "It is the entity of the true aspect of all phenomena ...What then is that entity? It is Nam Myoho Renge Kyo". Is that okay, or would I have to find a 3rd party who wrote that Nichiren declared etc etc.? Thanks.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 00:46, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. The quotes I refer to are short, and I don't think they (or even the translations) are in dispute as authentic. I will certainly include the name of the translator. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:04, 26 August 2014 (UTC)